Transcripts
Dana Peterson, Jerel Bryant. Caroline Roemer, thank you so much for joining us here at charterfolk chat. I been excited about, having a chance to have this conversation for quite a while. This is a conscious choice not to do this during the 20th anniversary of the New orleans story, but to do it immediately thereafter, so that we can be the first to offer some reflections on what last year's experience, was and what, you all have learned from it, but also perhaps, importantly from a, national perspective, what our world, might be taking from, the experience. I'm not gonna be, hiding my cards here upfront and I'm not hiding them in the way I'm writing right now. And I have some people who are like beating on me. I'm sorry, if Howard Fuller is beating on me, then I'm gonna, I'm gonna do it, right? Which is, our world needs to be less apologetic about the progress that we're making. And some of the places where we're making progress, the progress has been nothing short of stunning, though, that doesn't mean that there hasn't been problems and mistakes and tragedies and errors that we've made in the process of generating in incredibly new, I feel like New orleans is just one of these incredible examples for us. So thank you for being here, for us and sharing thoughts. I'd love to just start, there's been a lot of retrospective, yeah. We've got a whole film we had made. We've had, various, recent reports and journalism here and there. We've had conferences and these kinds of things. I'm just wondering, how are each of you summarizing what the New orleans experience has been over the last 20 years? How do we talk about the progress that has been made? And I don't really care who goes first. Dana, would you mind like getting us started?
Dana Peterson:Yeah, I'll definitely, don't mind jumping in. I'll, start by saying, look, we all want to be responsive to dr. Fuller when he says we should do something, we should think, long and hard about what he is communicating to us. But I'm glad to be having this conversation, although I'll admit, Jed, I'm, breaking a promise to myself. After we got through the anniversary last year, a lot of us like were just exhausted with that conversation. The same, yeah. And, secondly, New orleans, I, think many of us on the ground want to turn and look forward and, not, be in this sort of perpetual, look back mode. But I do think, it was a unique opportunity. A lot has been accomplished in New orleans over the past 20 years, and I think when you live it, you can, take some of that for granted. I think the way we talk about it, quite frankly is, over the past 20 years we've worked really hard to narrow the gap between what. The average kid in New orleans has access to and achieves, and what the average kid in the state of Louisiana has access to and achieves. And if you look at the data, we're plus 25 on high school graduation rates. So that's now down to I think, three or four, three or four point gap. We're plus almost 30 on college enrollment, today versus 20 years ago. In fact, today more kids in New orleans go directly to college outta high school than the average in, which in Louisiana. So in that way, we've surpassed, the state average. If you, one other piece is, last year, for the first time in a, long time, we had zero failing schools in New orleans. 20 years ago New orleans enrolled about 9% of public schools in, public schools, kids in the state, and we had 45% of the state's lowest performing schools. Now, the state accountability system back then didn't use, letter grades, but it used a star system. Caroline can tell you more on that, but I think the equivalent of one star was the equivalent of an f rated school. Today, we had 45% of those schools, 20 years ago in the state today we had, last year anyway, we had zero, of those schools. That's a tremendous accomplishment. And of course, this year we, have earned our first b letter grade.
Jed Wallace:I saw that
Dana Peterson:If you had asked anyone.
Jed Wallace:Yeah,
Dana Peterson:Five years ago, much less 20. Whether or not we thought New orleans could get to a b letter grade, most would've thought that wasn't possible. And if that isn't impressive enough, if you look at the last few years, now we know that we're doing that in a state that no longer ranks at the bottom.
Jed Wallace:Yeah.
Dana Peterson:Louisiana is quickly rising, up the ranks. What we know from NAP scores, New orleans, I think there was a, study by harvard and y stanford universities about academic progress, and rebound from COVID. So twenty nineteen to twenty twenty-four, top 100 populated cities in the country. Growth in ELA, growth in math. New orleans was second in growth in ELA eighth in growth in math. So now it stands to reason we're narrowing the gap between what the average young kid in New orleans has access to and achieve, and what the average kid in america.
Jed Wallace:Yeah.
Dana Peterson:To and achieve. So that's the way we talk about, talk about it. Tremendous progress. Although I stopped short of saying it's success because we haven't won yet. Yeah. As impressive as that record is, we still haven't won. And so what is winning? Winning from my vantage point is New orleans has the opportunity, to become the first major city in america that gets it right for the majority of its kids, which are mostly black and come from communities with far fewer economic resources than most. We're closer than anyone else. And I believe we're going to get there if we continue on, the path and trajectory we're on. So we haven't won yet. We've made tremendous progress. It is phenomenal, but we gotta keep focusing on, the main thing, keeping the main thing. And I think that's, supporting leaders like Jerel and others to do the incredible work that they, do.
Jed Wallace:Love that Dana. J Jerel let's turn to you. By the way, it's nice to have you on, I, think you're one of our fir, our earliest charterfolk extraordinaire, if I remember right. I'm explaining the concept to Caroline, and Caroline was like, wait a second. I know who's gonna be, the first extraordinaire from Los angeles or from Louisiana. And it was, it was darrell. Great to, have had that legacy of just awareness of the incredible work you've been doing. And then of course your career has taken new steps and all of that. What are your thoughts, as a, as an operator on the ground in New orleans about, what's the experience been over the last 20 years?
Jerel Bryant:Thank you for, having me. And, these two folks and your yourself included, certainly have helped to build conditions, that allow, myself and, other leaders to do the work. So thank you. I think dan did a wonderful job of zooming out and underscoring, I think the data points that, best articulate how far we've come. I think part of that story too is, what the data doesn't necessarily tell you right. About the experience of kids in this city. And, I have the story of, I remember our first, set of state, test my, first year as a principal. And they were strong. Jed man, we were celebrating. We felt good about it. And the the following fall, we, had, protest and, what, I learned,
Jed Wallace:Right,
Jerel Bryant:In a very reductive way was that, in order to win in this landscape, in order to win for kids, it wasn't gonna be just the data, that people honored, and ultimately measured, whether, it was quantitative or not. And thinking, about the last 20 years, obviously there's great complexity, that I'm sure we'll touch on. But, I'm most proud of, I think the fact that the experience of kids in this city, especially high school, has encompassed not just academic progress, which is number one, right? In college access and, in career access. But also we see progress in the arts, right? In music and, sports, and community, and, I think one of the, best elements about this city is, it, really does feel often like a community of schools, right? I think oftentimes maybe in a space where folks might see it as a zero sum game, especially with enrollment the way it is, for example, I think there's a real palpable sense, to Dana's point that, we're just figuring it out. And this isn't, Dana made, a point about, keeping the main thing, in that answer, he didn't explicitly say charter, right? Like the main thing is building great schools. And, to do that by way of charter has been a powerful tool, in, order to do that. But I think day to day, that is what we are telling ourselves. Let's build great schools and let's build a city full of great schools, for the kids who deserve it the most.
Jed Wallace:Awesome. It sure seems like the data and the stories point to, something very special having happened in New orleans. Caroline, your family's connections, just, politics and education, Louisiana, just go back. So, far, and, that vantage point, and also your perch at the state level. How do you look at the New orleans experience across that timeframe, across that broad state landscape?
Caroline Roemer:Yeah, Dana said it very well, and again, when that letter grade came out of b for New orleans, I literally cried like it was, I have not been here the 20 years, but I've been here 18 years. I was part of meetings when the Recovery school district and Dana were still, in charge of things. And those meetings, Jed, literally you had like police presence, people packing rooms. It actually just felt like this is just not gonna work out. This is we cannot persevere through this, but, school leaders, educators, so many nonprofits in New orleans, politicians, all of them, they have stuck with what the goal was. And that was to see if we could do better by kids. And in this combination of the politics aligning the policies being in the right place, the people being in place, both inside schools and outside schools, New orleans has just made something happen that so many people, both believers and nonbelievers, just didn't think was possible. And I wanna reemphasize they've done it, Jed, at a time where our accountability system has continuously shifted and not down shifted up.
Jerel Bryant:Up.
Dana Peterson:Yeah.
Caroline Roemer:Up. The expectations, the bar just keeps going up and these leaders like Jerel and their teachers and their students just keep showing up and getting it done. And so I'm just, I'm, thrilled for New orleans and that's how it's happened. And Jerel is correct. I had written my note was we rarely talk charter school anymore in New orleans. And I know that's your push. What can happen when charters are put in a position to lead educationally in a city. But New orleans is now in a place where families aren't looking at, is it traditional? Is it charter? They're looking at, does this school have what my child needs? Is it music, is it arts? Is it academics? And I am just really pleased that, it has been nothing less than a, battle. It's still a battle. It is still showing up every day. Now is actually, it may be harder. The next 20 which scares me 'cause the first 20 have been and have put wrinkles on my forehead and everything else, the next 20 Jed, is where the danger can set in. You and I have talked about it, about like complacency, status quo. Can we continue to push on what we know is possible for our students? And I'm taking a little break in january to recharge and get ready for the next 20.
Jed Wallace:I love it.
Dana Peterson:Something, Caroline said, Jed, if you don't mind. Sure. I jump in. '''Cause I do, I think there there've been a lot of hard fought wins. And I think a lot of battle scars to show for it. But on this point of charter schools, and I would say, to use, I, often think about our charter leaders like Jerel and, certainly Jerel's not the only one, in our ecosystem. But I would venture to say, to use a sports analogy, we probably got the best roster,
Jed Wallace:Right,
Dana Peterson:Of charter school leaders of any city, state or jurisdiction across the country. Now, we may not have the 800 pound gorilla that some folks might be, or, organizations might be. But I think if you look top to bottom, we've got the most impressive mature group. And I say mature because they have contributed to every single piece you could point to of policy in New orleans that shapes this unique ecosystem that's built and designed around them. Yeah, that's that that holds them accountable, that does all the things. It's been shaped by those charter school leaders. It's literally them along with the districts, the former US at the recovery school district, now the local school system, identifying a problem or a challenge in real time, and then brainstorming together about what the solutions to those challenges could potentially be. And then putting those, based on our values, putting those into practice, recognizing we got a good practice, and then putting that practice into either law, yeah, and or policy. I think we've gotten here, you can't draw a straight line certainly from two thousand five to twenty twenty-five, there's been a lot of, this along the way, but it's been constant learning and responding in real time.
Jed Wallace:Yeah.
Dana Peterson:Two challenges that I think is been the most impressive piece of it all because we haven't planted our flag in the ground saying it's this way or the highway, right? Like Jerel talks, can talk very eloquently about, and deeply about the challenges he faced at Carver high school was saying, hey, we've got a, we've got a plan. We've got a way we want to do business. It shows results, but hey, we still have to adapt to, in real time to things on the playing field.
Jed Wallace:Yeah. I'm not sure if it's, we're gonna have time to dive into it to the extent that I would like to, but Dana, what you've just highlighted is another aspect of the New orleans story I love the most, which is the broad bet on charterfolk. The broad bet I come, from california, Los angeles, eli broad got excited, hey, let's really grow, charter schools in Los angeles and what was it, a lot of money going to three or four big organizations. I love those big organizations too, don't get me wrong, right? But that narrow bet I wasn't, no, I didn't want a broad plan. I wanted a broad plan. And I think that New orleans is confirmation that, the intuition, of broad is the wiser long-term approach to go to. Yeah, I, look, I got a thousand different questions. There's so many different things you want, but I'm gonna try and stay disciplined to, like, get to some of the things I think are most important for charterfolk listeners, our own world, the charter school world. And let me ask you, how would you guys summarize the experience of last year? I remember Dana, you and I had a conversation in february and march. Caroline, you and I were talking, regularly. Jerel, I even got a couple emails from you, right? Yeah, but there was almost a sense of dread going into like next year. Not that we don't have a great story to tell, but it was just people were gonna use this as an excuse to just beat up on us and tell an unfair story, and we were really gonna have to work hard to make sure that the story was accurately understood not specifically to the charter world, but to the broader landscape policy makers national with. How would you say the focus last year was calibrated?, and do you like the way, ultimately the lessons seem to be taken from the experience in New orleans?
Dana Peterson:Listen, I'll jump in here. I walked away afterwards feeling like we accomplished what we wanted to accomplish. I thought it was pretty, overall on the whole, I thought it was pretty fair and balanced. I know the way I felt going in, so let's say february last year, I felt a certain hesitancy about it. I think as we got closer to it, I, we started to really feel the weight of the moment. And from our perspective at New schools for New orleans, as we planned out the messages we wanted to convey, the things we wanted to focus in, focus in on and wanted people to, hone in on, I think we had to start, we started with, one, that progress I laid out at the beginning of this discussion. We wanted to make sure that came across. We also wanted to make sure people recognized that, hey, we're not finished. That, in many ways, is just the beginning, but the most important piece that we thought about is we needed to make space for the pain that made the progress possible. Like this community really went through a lot.
Jed Wallace:Yeah.
Dana Peterson:20 years ago. Now, if you wanna make this simply about school reform, certainly this story has starts before Katrina. And a lot of people just don't recognize,
Jed Wallace:Right.
Dana Peterson:That aspect of it. But if you wanna make this about the impact on a community, of what that, of what the storm really represented, you have to make way for the pain. It was,
Jerel Bryant:That's right.
Dana Peterson:11 hundred to 12 hundred, maybe even closer to 15 hundred, I think now, lives lost. If you think about as a result of the storm, not just in immediate aftermath, but over over time, people, dying in the hospital or dying from literally loss and sorrow. So loss of life, loss of property, the anchor of what this community really, calling card of New orleans right, is culture and how culture was disrupted by the storm, but it was also culture that really allowed the community, and the city to survive.
Jed Wallace:Yeah.
Dana Peterson:Katrina, I'd venture to say some places without the strong culture that New orleans is, wouldn't have survived what Katrina, what Katrina represented. So as we have walked into it, we wanted to make sure we were, yes, telling the good story of the progress, but making space for the pain that made way for the progress. And, and I think we were able to do that. I think, people responded well. We created a bunch of online data tools for people who wanted to write stories for policymakers, for reporters, for anyone to go to really dig in on the data. So we think by and large it was, it was, successful in that way.
Jed Wallace:Terrell, Caroline, any thoughts?
Jerel Bryant:I'll jump in. Agree with what's been said. And, I think kudos to Dana and his team for, I think, honoring that pain and complexity. Far more reductively though, these 20 years, there've been multiple chapters years. And if you look at, five years here, five years here, a lot moved. And what I think we discovered as an organization, for example, is that folks that did not grow up here, or even folks who grew up here but entered the system in twenty fifteen or right before COVID or twenty ten those experiences and the information that they were working with, was spotty. Yeah. Imperfect. I don't need to say it to this group. We're in a public forum where, misinformation, disinformation, finding truth, is harder than ever before. And so the greatest value proposition for actually Katrina 20 for us when we stepped back, was context that we recognized there were tons of folks educating children in the system that didn't have the context fully. And that's not a, judgment on their desire to know. A lot has moved.
Jed Wallace:Yeah.
Jerel Bryant:Very quickly. And so I think the ability to slow down and, take that in, myself included, Dana mentioned reform happening before Katrina, that story, those players. So from, that, I think perspective, it's our job then to operationalize that context for the success of kids, right? And then to think about the next 20 years based on what we just experienced, and beyond the politics or, the commentary, having the chance to slow down and capture 20 years of stories, chapters, information, and data, I thought was in incredibly important.
Caroline Roemer:And I'll jump in too, Jed. I'll get a little spicier with it. As Dana said, there were bad things happening before Katrina in orleans that was rooted in politics and bad leadership. Not necessarily bad teachers or principals, people inside schools. It was more to me about the people who were responsible for leading the day-to-day operations of schools. And they lost sight of what we were supposed to be doing, educating kids. And they were shifting into a place where it was about contracts and money and adult issues. And so, when I think about the last 20 years in orleans, and I'm not from there, I am from Louisiana but have been lucky enough, I always say, I wasn't lucky enough to be born in New orleans, but I was smart enough to live there. But when I think about New orleans and those chapters, as Jerel said, and what I reflect on I do reflect a lot on governance, and how important it is. And one of the stories in New orleans is the fact that we have shifted the mindset mostly. It still creeps in every now and then, but this mindset of that a district needs to operate every single school every day and make all decisions that are going on. We've moved away from that. There's always those that are fighting for that control. But I would say that orleans has really broken the framework, if you will, of what a traditional Public school system has to look like versus what it can be when whether it was done to them and they came along or however you want to frame how we got to where we are today. I would argue that, for the most part, we have a governing board, an elected board, that isn't eaten up with the day-to-day decisions of schools.
Jed Wallace:Yeah.
Caroline Roemer:There's still a lot of politics there, but what we've done is shifted the governance to be much more close to students inside buildings. You can say what you want, criticize New orleans and charters, but we now have, what, 30 something charter boards in New orleans with private citizens who are volunteering to be part of mission-based schools who probably otherwise would have nothing to do with public schools in New orleans, right? But instead they are inside our schools lending their expertise, their passion, as Dana said, their history, their culture to our schools. And so I get giddy not only on the academic side, that's what we talk a lot about when we talk about education reform, as we should, is the academic improvements. But I think New orleans has just as much a story about change in governance and how that can lead to better outcomes for students and for communities as a whole.
Dana Peterson:I think it's important too when you think about that framework that Caroline describes that is really unique to New orleans. I'm a I'm not born and raised in New orleans either. I was smart enough to marry a a Catholic school girl from New orleans many years but I've lived here longer than I lived anywhere else in my life. I'm a converted catholic and I say that to in case I offend anybody with what I'm about who is a born and raised Catholic, or what I'm about to say. But, we as Catholics, often cite this sort of apostles creed or messene creed as this set of belief statements about about our faith in the way in which it's gonna be exercised over time. I think New orleans we've created sort of the, what's akin to an apostles creed for our framework, right? We believe in the freedom and flexibility of educators that run the types of schools that families might be responsive to. We believe in holding those schools accountable for the learning outcomes of young people. We believe in the power of families to choose among those schools, and we believe in fairness and equity as these powerful policy tools that help level the playing field between parents and families because they're competing for seats. And we level the playing field between schools, which are competing with each other for, the interest of families. We've been fortunate enough to those beliefs and values have been enacted in. Set of practices over time, those practices adopted because of folks like Caroline and their strong advocacy adopted into law and policy. Yeah. And that is the unique framework that captures New orleans. And we're constantly, and, thank god for Caroline, 'cause we're constantly having to fight sometimes to really hold in place that framework, because I think people, that framework can live in the backdrop and people don't really, from the outside looking in, don't really understand and fully appreciate and value it. Sometimes people on the inside, who are in key positions don't necessarily understand the value of that framework. And it has led to a governing system that looks dramatically different than anywhere else in the country. And it's because it, we needed something to meet the needs of this new, incredibly different system that was built. We didn't rebuild the old system.
Jerel Bryant:Yeah.
Dana Peterson:We built a new system. Yeah. And so we needed a new framework by which to operate it. And I think is, we are fortunate, I think, to have it as a flag in the ground. And it's something that we can judge any piece of policy, any decision point can judge it by is it, honoring these values that I just laid out? If it doesn't, we're rejecting it. If it does, then there's then what is the nuance in it? And let's figure it out. But if it doesn't honor those values, we're, our sort of antennas are up immediately to fight.
Jed Wallace:One of my, one of my central assertions at charterfolk over and over again is that we have, we don't have a North star. We do not have a North star.
Dana Peterson:We've got one in New orleans.
Jed Wallace:I'm, and what you're saying right now, Dana, is that framework it is a North star. Yeah. And it is and a proactively articulated, yeah, North star. Yeah, that had people, a, large number of charterfolk buy into it and they're is absolutely essential as far as the national, portrayal of the last 20 years. I would say that I am modestly, it things were modestly better than I thought. The overall renderings, hey, most pieces, New york times or Louisiana specific ed reform stuff, 74 million, the 74 million, you're gonna expect it to be positive. But like the New york times, basically a, fairly positive story. More so than I think I would've expected. I do think that the level of attention it got nationally was maybe a little bit lower than I was expecting. And that might be the perfect compromise, right? If it had been a lot bigger, then people would've been pummeling us. So I'm marginally, I'm quite pleased actually about how that played out in the broader landscape, but within the charter school world. And Dana, I'm right with you. I look, we're, not charters for charter's sake. We're, we have these values about how we believe public education should be structured and operated, and the charter school design just happens to be better aligned with those values that, unfortunately, the legacy system that we adopted. And it's not charters for charter's sake. It's those values that we believe we are advancing. Yeah.
Caroline Roemer:Yeah.
Jed Wallace:My, my, concern right now is basically my conversation with charter school people across the country. Especially folks that have a significant number of charter school students already served in their local school district, their urban school district, where it seems as though many will make their first statement out of their mouth about you name the city. We're not going toward New orleans. We don't want, of course, we don't want New orleans. Of course we don't want, that's not what we're talking about. The, and it drives me completely and utterly crazy why our world wouldn't look at New orleans and say, hey, maybe we're not gonna do New orleans. But, there's nothing but greatness into it. I don't know why we wouldn't, but here's some other ideas or whatever it is. But that starting point from my perspective presumes a deficit that just ain't there. Or it's simple, conflict avoidance. It's just a strategy, it's a lack of courage. I don't know what it is. But you guys have had many people come and visit Louisiana, New orleans in the last year. You've had many other conversations with other people. You may not be picking up the same stuff that I am, and also, I don't wanna overemphasize here 'cause I actually think in the last three or four months, like what happened in Indianapolis and what I've had now in conversations with several other cities, I think people are like, wait a second, maybe we should think different. So I don't wanna be too blanket here in my criticism of our own world, but I'd love to hear how you guys have had conversations with charter school people and other cities about whether the New orleans experience is applicable to what they're trying to do there.
Dana Peterson:Listen, the I've been fortunate enough to over the last 10 plus years to engage with lots of folks from all over the place who wanna come to New, who come to New orleans and want to look under the hood and see what's going on and, have had chances to visit some of those places as well and have conversations, I think, I think what you described was truer certainly a decade ago. ''Cause when we went to Baton rouge, lots of people don't know from the outside, the Recovery school district also took over a handful of schools in Baton rouge, yeah, many years ago. So when we had set things up in New orleans, we were on the right trajectory in New orleans. We turned some of as the recovery school district turned some attention to Baton rouge and it was really hard to try and implement some of the things that we had experienced in New orleans in Baton rouge because the first thing out of folks' mouth would be, we're not doing that New orleans thing. We're not doing that New orleans thing here. I think that's less true today, I think lots of people wanna figure out, okay, just what is the secret sauce in New orleans, though? And if I were picking one thing for folks to hone in on to try and replicate from New orleans to other places, it is that sense of that that belief of holding schools accountable for learning outcomes for young people that is replicable.
Caroline Roemer:Yeah.
Dana Peterson:No matter what your system is, no matter what the governance model is, that can be done. That is to say we're drawing a line in the sand on the quality of schools if it meets and we're talking about a minimum standard. To be clear, when you're talking about accountability,
Jed Wallace:Yeah.
Dana Peterson:We're drawing a line in the sand about what it needs to be minimally true. And if a school doesn't reach it then there are consequences for. And we've long established that in New orleans. Even the most honored anti-reform, anti-charter school, anti recovery school district, anti-education reform person in New orleans admits that point. We're not going back. It recognizes schools need to be held accountable for the learning outcomes of young people. And, yes, there can be unintended consequences for that along with that but we're also going to actively solve for that. And, in New orleans, we, that's how we developed years ago the, we call it the closing school priority, is when a school is, has been slated for non-renewal, for charter schools, non-renewal for those families in that school. They have. They're first in line, if you will, in the enrollment system for any available seat for their child next year. That is us recognizing that, hey, there are unintended consequences here potentially for the closure of school. So we're gonna do everything we can to actively, push those families into the best available, best available seat. So we've figured out a way to solve for the thing that people fear in school closure, right? So the thing that is most replicable from my vantage point is just, we're gonna draw a line in the sand. If a school doesn't meet these standards, there's consequences 'cause we're gonna, and we're gonna do something about that. And I think irrespective of what the, what your system looks like, you can do that.
Jerel Bryant:Jed, I'm gonna, I almost, I didn't mean to interrupt your very convicted segueway last time, but, the. I just had this thought. I think the one reality is when we talk ed reform, right? And Caroline mentioned governance, like the precursor to that is mindset and how radical that mindset can be, right? So if, you're looking at schools that are traditionally failed based on the state system, generation after generation, and to Dana's point, putting a line in the sand,
Jed Wallace:Yeah.
Jerel Bryant:This school is now no longer going to fail, but be, become a beacon in this city. That's a radical premise. Yeah. To even ground in alongside governance or governance that drives it. I think too, something is fundamentally missed when we tell the story, or not the telling of it, but sometimes what is interpreted over those 20 years I mentioned chapters, we've been extremely adaptable. We've learned a lot and pivoted quite a bit over those.
Jed Wallace:Yeah.
Jerel Bryant:And if there's something I want people to learn from New orleans. And you asked how the coverage, how it felt. I gave you a very clinical response. Viscerally. Some of it was tough for me to watch or to hear because I knew the mistakes that I made. I didn't know I was making mistakes. Then hindsight's twenty twenty.
Jed Wallace:But Jerel Bryant 39:34
I, knew what they were and I knew the impact on kids.
Jed Wallace:Yeah.
Jerel Bryant:And, we've learned those lessons and, done something with them. And, so I think sometimes when it's an outright or utter rejection of New orleans, we can't go there. My question is, what is there, learning palpable lessons that move black and brown kids forward throughout an entire system very quickly? No. I want to go there regardless of what system you're in. Please, let's go there. Yeah. All right. Is that responding to Dana's point, critically to academic outcomes regardless of any other factor or precedent or variable? Yes. Let's go there. That's what we promised our families. And I think I'm proud of that. And, the more we can, I think, share that part of the New orleans story of the multiple chapters in which we, have adapted and we'll need to adapt more over these next 20 years, to make them even more fruitful in the last,
Caroline Roemer:I would say too, to, Dana talked about. And I think it's the absolute North star is academic performance and, what you're trying to accomplish for kids. I would also tell districts that are not looking to quote be New orleans, but things they could adopt. I think a lot about parent power. We give a lot of lip service to parents having choices and that sort of thing. I think if a district just opened themselves to pure choice parents getting to choose the schools they want, parents are smart. They figure out what their kids need. Like the New orleans story has gone from where you would just open your door. The day that school starts and your kid just goes to whatever they've been assigned to in the neighborhood or whatever, and we love to talk about neighborhood schools, but at the same time we know parents are passing up their neighborhood school because there's another school that they think is better and that, for whatever reason, that's where they want their child to be. So I would point to districts and just say, why don't you do something different with your catchment zones? We still, by the way, people don't know in New orleans, we still give kids preference to their neighborhood school. Like we've created policies that do allow for that, if that's what your choice is. But again, going back to the policies, the principles are non-negotiables. What are we not willing to give on? And so that academic performance, families having pure choices. Now in New orleans, having choice doesn't mean you always get your first choice, but you have, as Dana said, policies that ensure the playing field is level for all families to have equal chance to that seat. So, again, I think districts that mindset. If board shifted from thinking their jobs is to talk about color of buses and what football coach gets hired and get hyper-focused on outcomes, how is this school doing for kids? Give parents the true ability to move around, give schools the ability to compete for teachers versus assigning. It doesn't have to be a charter, but let people inside the building make decisions as close to kids as possible, including their parents. That in itself, we call that a charter school. And for some, that's a dirty word, but what it really means is, that you are empowering parents and educators to make decisions as close to the classroom as you possibly can.
Jed Wallace:I love that. I feel like part of the challenge in other places right now is, Dana, to your point, to all of your points, actually, we're not being super crisp about really what the framework is or what the North star is in New orleans. And when we get a little sloppy we lose the through line. Yeah. For me, on the accountability piece,
Caroline Roemer:Yeah.
Jed Wallace:I think a, fundamental message that we should share is it is really not possible to be an operator and a regulator of schools at the same time. You just cannot do that. You cannot, be the saints and be the referee in the, in the football game. And,
Dana Peterson:Listen in all, fairness, on, this point, it's, a great point.
Caroline Roemer:And it's super timely right now.
Dana Peterson:And it's super timely in, New orleans. And I think the real challenge if, you wanna put a challenge on the table for New orleans, right, is what happens when these values that are laid out, 'cause sometimes these values can be tension with one another, yeah. The things you believe can bump up, can, come head to head and what happens in those moments and how you work yourself, work your way through them, I think is really, going to, speak to how resilient the thing that you built is. Sure. And I think we're, we're, certainly, ex have experienced that over the years and have always been able to work our way, work our way through it and. I think the reason why, in addition to the, thing I, described about, the framework, I think we've been blessed in this particular way, is that we have had this string of amazing leaders and, I, and I'm gonna say leaders at multiple levels, right? We've had great, board members. We've had great charter school board members. We've had great charter school leaders, but we've had great, policy makers, legislators and the like. But more importantly, we've had this string of strong superintendent that have held the line, if you will, on what we think that framework in that, strategy is. I'll go all the way back to sort of paul pastor act as the state superintendent. I'm even going to mention and say, give kudos to paul valli, who was the bull in the china shop that we needed at the time, served his purpose. But then, started with john white as first the recovery school district superintendent, then the state superintendent who remained as state superintendent committed to New orleans. Then patrick do bard, following him up as, the recovery school district superintendent, henderson lewis. As, of the, nola public schools, local school district superintendent. We had this string of superintendents and then I think we made a mistake, quite frankly in, and, it is why we're faced with this challenge in the present right? Of, a superintendent didn't necessarily, who, wasn't necessarily, hadn't, I say grown up in it, in air quotes, not to take anything away from her, like she had just hadn't been, come up in our ecosystem. Didn't adopt those values that I really laid out, made a decision that wasn't rooted in those values. And then, and now it's presented a challenge that the district and the current superintendent is trying to work their way, work their way to work their way through. We have to, when I say keep the main thing right? That's what I mean.
Caroline Roemer:With that, Dana, I'm gonna jump in it. Jed, you may not be following it. There is one traditional direct
Jed Wallace:I'm following
Caroline Roemer:And the good news there is I would say, going back, we really don't talk charter or not charter. It's just, is it a good school? Yeah. And so this 20 years has led this elected school board to be talking about their one school that they have. There still are a couple people on the board that are very rooted in model versus outcomes, right, but overall, this board is questioning the very things we talk about when we talk about how charters operate. How are they performing academically? How are they performing financially? They're talking about why aren't kids choosing this school? They are talking like they are charter, like that competitive thing. But Dana is, I, wanna put like a emphasis on it, yeah, leadership really matters. We know that a secret sauce for a great charter school, in my opinion, is who's leading it. Jerel's a perfect example. Jamar, mcNeely, sharon clark, rhonda, like I've got a list of them. It's the same at that district level. If you do not have the right leader in place, who will open their mind to what's possible, we say sometimes in my org, it's not just thinking outside the box, but don't even think there is a box. Just to those North star points, Jed, that you keep emphasizing, that is to me what is missing. With too many traditional school districts, they are focused on the wrong things, and the politics are really hard to be a leader in a district and stand up to an elected school board that's difficult. And, we have been very fortunate, including with cade brumley now to have people that think, about kids and not about necessarily models, but problem solving and ways to improve.
Jed Wallace:Yeah. Yeah. On, the, with the, crispness, I think matters. We want schools that have a third party. That serves as their authorizer, their regulator, and when that doesn't happen, the breakdown that happens in terms of quality and the kids that most need better options, having them just falls apart on us. And, and once you have a, school district operating schools and they're moving money between sites, oh, this school's actually failing financially. Oh, let's have it sub subsidized by some other school. Now you have, a system of sucking money away from schools that parents wanna send their kids to subsidize schools that few, far fewer want to. And you do that a few times over it. And you've got Chicago Public schools, and what we have in Louisiana right now or in New orleans is a system that's not like that. It can still go awry. It can still go, it could, it can still be messed up and all of that. But, you've done an amazing job of articulating that framework and building the buy-in such that when something happens that's clearly counter to those values. I think it's pretty evident almost everybody in the landscape what's going on now. So congratulations again on this. Let, me ask you something, about, I know, we've got a, another 10 or fif 10 minutes maybe here, but, I really wanted to ask you guys this question about what is the anomaly of New orleans and Louisiana? 'cause I feel as though one of the impulses that leads charterfolk in other cities to not want to embrace the New orleans story is because who wants to, predicate their, vision for progress on, a huge human tragedy and the anomaly in Louisiana. If it wasn't for Katrina, this stuff wouldn't have happened. I just don't think that's the anomaly. I don't think that's the anomaly. We have a lot of sit schools, well cities across the country that have gotten to 30 or 40 or 50% of kids in schools. And it may be that Katrina definitely contributed to that, and there's definitely a part of it. But I was there in Mary landry's house in washington DC and Mary knows that my starting point for charter schools was in a conversion in Los angeles. I know the power of conversions, and at charterfolk I have said it is my absolute worst mistake. I allowed us to de-emphasize the importance of conversions. Bill clinton knew it from the very beginning. A lot of the earliest people they knew conversions are super important. So I spent time in Mary's house talking to three groups that were going to be converting their schools to charter status in Louisiana and just doing the conversion, Jed thing. But the problem was that we were at 70% at that point. And what I wonder is if we had done the conversion story in New orleans a little bit earlier and maybe fewer people would've lost their jobs and, there could have been a whole other way of doing this. All I do know for sure is in terms of anomaly, Louisiana pivoted to an approach that was primarily dependent on conversions as getting us to that end state. Once we had gotten a significant number of, students in charter schools and Jerel I know that you were at Carver, and that's the, conversion story there is just like incredible. But, like, basically across the country, I see our world stall out at 30 or 40% thinking, oh, the only way we're gonna keep growing is startup schools and all that kind. It's not there. It's not there. The anomaly is New orleans realized that it needed to change its strategy for continued growth. Now, push back on me. Am I wrong on this? Or, should I keep beating on this drum or are there nuances here? What really is the anomaly of Louisiana and New orleans being able to get to an all charter system?
Dana Peterson:A couple of things. If I'm following you, I, one. One was we, not you mentioned, what makes me think about this is you mentioned, our good friend Mary Landrieu, former United states senator Mary Landrieu, one of the things I will, I think we should build a statue to Mary Landrieu,
Jed Wallace:I agree.
Dana Peterson:In New orleans, because the accomplishment of the $2 billion FEMA settlement after the storm to rebuild the physical infrastructure is like this city could never have rebuilt the physical infrastructure, the, without that put Katrina aside, like we had, I think something like, I think maybe, upwards of a billion dollars in deferred maintenance in public school, physical, buildings, in, the city without that settlement from FEMA that allow the systems to rebuild as needed. Not just rebuild up to a particular point of where that building was before the storm. That gave the system a lot of flexibility in its march to determine what the portfolio of schools was going to look like in the city. It was a huge piece of it, which then led to a startup operator, like collegiate academies being, dare I say, I don't order, a Jed, any, a any trauma for Jerel, but being forced into a sort of turnaround conversion situation in Carver high school because that school was important, an important legacy to this community. And it needed to be rejuvenated. And not only did it need to be rejuvenated, what Jerel learned is like the rejuvenation of that legacy led to good outcomes, ultimately better outcomes ultimately for young people, right? So there's a lot of that kind of nuance that is there, that is hard to see from the outside. And, that, happened a lot of times around the city that ultimately got us on the trajectory of of an all charter system. Without those things, I'm not sure we would have, I'm not sure we would've gotten there.
Caroline Roemer:Well, and we
Dana Peterson:Look at least making that, adaptation in real time. I'm not sure we would've gotten there.
Caroline Roemer:And going back, Recovery school district was not recovery from Katrina. Recovery school district was going back to what we talk about a North star. It was a principle it was a political, state level move. Over time, we started looking at accountability, what we were, how we were measuring schools. That started the change. Recovery school district came in, frankly as a consequence to districts not doing their jobs well. And as Dana said, we started taking schools away from traditional districts across the state.
Jed Wallace:Yeah.
Caroline Roemer:What happened in New orleans though, was Katrina and a situation in which you literally, like how do you rebuild a city? If you don't have places for kids to go to school, and we didn't have a governance body there. The governing body was broke. Half of them were going to prison, like the Recovery school district came in and propped up. In my opinion, a school system that otherwise I don't know if they would've been able to come back anytime soon from Katrina. So that anomaly was like, we had the framework to take schools. And then you just had this situation in New orleans where, no pun intended, the perfect storm of things happened from, manmade disaster, being, levies breaking manmade disaster, being a school board that was corrupt and couldn't even pay their teachers. That's what happened in New orleans. And now we're in a place, I'll speak just quickly at a state level, working with our state superintendent, on how do you, it, what's the next, 3.0 version, if you will, of the Recovery school district? Can you do recovery, academic recovery without just taking schools away from districts that hasn't proven to be all that successful throughout the state here. So we're leaning in on what other consequences can you set up for districts when they're not running their schools? I would give a big shout out to our state and to the feds, like CSP money, Jed. So important. Absolutely, so important. One of the problems in charter growth, I'll limit it to Louisiana, is just the leadership. Having people able to start a charter school, whether it's a conversion or fresh start, that's really hard. It's hard to do all of those things and then try to do it without any funding. Is impossible. So for us, we've got CSP money. We've got a history, a track record of charters performing well in places like New orleans, and I do think that's lending to our current superintendent, dr. Brom lee's ability to push on districts. He's basically said you can either, you can choose from the list of things that the RSD can do or I'll do it to you. Okay. So he's leaning in trying to force superintendents and school boards to own their academic disasters if you will, and implement solutions that will improve on that. So whether that is closing their schools, whether it's converting them to charters, changing leadership, that's a push that our state is making that isn't about charters, but about that North star of what is the expectation on all schools, no matter what type they are.
Jerel Bryant:Jed, I have, very little to add because I think Caroline and Dana do an excellent job of naming a number of conditional artifacts, yeah. From governance facilities, that make the work. But going back to this point that Dana made earlier about whether it's an explicit or an implicit sort of value system that we're aligning to when making critical, cross system decisions, one like North star, academic achievement. Yes, but the sub bullet points there, I think can just as, can be just as critical for expansion and opportunity in a city. So think New orleans has valued legacy high schools, right? Has valued explicitly culture.
Dana Peterson:Yeah.
Jerel Bryant:Rootedness.
Dana Peterson:Yep.
Jerel Bryant:And I'm sure in many spaces that right there is a non-starter. Those are intention immediately, and I just don't think they need to be right. If, you're fortunate enough to have the right people at the table, but one North star needs to be preeminent, right? Which is the achievement at all costs. But one of those costs doesn't need to be legacy, especially, right? If you are building leaders in a system that orient to that, and I think that has been, Dana mentioned people and, so did Caroline, I think to have a concentration of people who are not just hardworking or strategically gifted in how they're moving results for kids authentically, but also believe in the values of that place, and the rootedness of that place. I think it's been a real weapon for us in a positive way. And a and, a part of the secret sauce. That has softened the approach we have.
Jed Wallace:How does your experience at Carver f
Jerel Bryant:Yeah,
Jed Wallace:Because my sense is that volun, voluntariness, to the degree that we can get it, is much better when chartering is done to you. Yeah. You just start from such a ter, although I know there was certainly a lot of pressure on different school communities at different points. Come on, you gotta do this thing or whatever. There may have been some threats that were a part of it, but that's not what I experienced in Mary land's house. What I heard were, legacy leaders who had been in these schools for quite a while that were like, I didn't wanna really wanna do chartering, but I've seen people now doing it and it seems like their schools are getting better and it's, I think I'm genuinely gonna get more control here and, have a better chance for, success. I wanna do this. I don't know where on the spectrum you would've, you would put, Carver in terms of its voluntariness or whatever, but what's been the experience over time? As that community has, seen its school changed.
Jerel Bryant:I can speak to Carver intimately and, I think, more expansively, on like behalf of other leaders in the city. Sure. I think that's where we've adapted quite a bit, Jed, I think we learned some early lessons and that we were quite, reactive. The anecdote I shared earlier, I think the sense that, hey, as long as this is good academically, we're going to be good is a false premise. I think we learned that early. And, I think en engaged more thoughtfully. We're not all the way there. With again, what are the community artifacts, and legacy artifacts of a school, that are not intention. In fact, with what we're trying to do academically in our programming, that in fact can amplify. And so if I think about Carver, are there elements, of course, right? A, a alums will be passionate, parents will be passionate. We want that. And, 20 years later, is Carver, in many ways the best iteration that Carver has ever been? And not just academically. Yes. And, to Dana's point, this is not just, re-engineering what has happened before, but we are trying to write the next best chapter of a book. And I think keeping that in totality, is something we've leaned to and we've seen progress, not just with that school, but I think several high schools throughout the city, that share similar characteristics.
Dana Peterson:Yeah. I, think one other thing I just wanna raise here, Jed. Sure. I, think, two things. One is the experience that Jerel has had in particular Carver picking out a, micro, level story in New orleans. Yep. There's so much there to pull the thread on.
Jerel Bryant:Yep.
Dana Peterson:For from Jerel and his experience at Carver. That is, in many ways representative of the macro
Jerel Bryant:Yeah.
Dana Peterson:Of the macro story that you'd want, at least someone who's been a participant for all these years, that is representative of the macro story that you'd want, that you'd want told. That's the first point. I think. Secondly, as we talk about legacy and governance and what was there, before the storm, I think it is, some of the points Caroline raised is, Caroline is, the, she storms the bar, right? And, we, love her and need her, to do that. It is right what she said in the structurally the system, what it was before the storm hit, in many ways was broken.
Jerel Bryant:Yeah.
Dana Peterson:The people in that moment who were managing it bear some responsibility for it, for sure. But I also think we'd be remiss if we didn't recognize the legacy of slavery, segregation, oppression in the deep south. Of course, New orleans being the deepest of the deep south.
Jed Wallace:Yeah.
Dana Peterson:And what you saw in the politics of the city in that moment, you cannot separate it from that history.
Jed Wallace:Yeah.
Dana Peterson:That history of disengagement, that history of disinvestment, that history of, behavior and, all of it's all tied and connected together. You can't just
Jed Wallace:Yeah.
Dana Peterson:Plop it down, plop down on two thousand five and take it for what it was in that moment. It is all connected to what came, what came before. I think what we're all trying to do, and have been working to do for the last, 20 years is to say to what Jerel just said, how can we write the next best chapter yep. For ourselves.
Jed Wallace:Yep.
Dana Peterson:And, to do that, like you have to hold these two things together, right? You have to hold this sort of past and history and legacy effect of that. You have to hold that in one hand and then you have to hold in the other hand, what do we think and believe is possible moving forward. And I think, that has been the biggest sort of, one of the biggest struggles and challenges for a lot of people in this community over the past 20 years. And it takes, I think, this is, what I mean by we've had really good, strong leaders who've been able to say in those moments, hey, we're trying to call ourselves to our, best angels of ourselves, if you will. And, try to design something that we think is best for kids that are in our ecosystem today, and the kids that we think are coming up and behind them, we're gonna stay super committed to that. And we've had great leaders who've been able to do that. And then we recognize when someone doesn't do that.
Jed Wallace:Yeah.
Dana Peterson:When someone actually tries to speak to the worst angels in us and, we reject that, we don't want that. Like we wanna, we want to, we wanna stay focused in, on, this belief of what's possible for these young people. And that's why I stay so, super hyped about a, we haven't won yet because if I can't send my kid to every school in the city, or if I wouldn't send my kid to every school in the city, then we haven't won. Yeah. That's when we're gonna win, that's when we'll know we're winning. And I think, of course, we can be the first city that actually, where that, is true. That becomes true, for everybody.
Jed Wallace:Thank you for that, Dana. And I, will say, I keep my stack of books. I'm trying to read more books. So I have 14 books last year that I, finished. And this was one of the ones I love stern's book about the history. Yeah,
Dana Peterson:Yeah,
Jed Wallace:Yeah. And it changed my thinking about, there was so many things, so many thumbnails I was saying about New orleans that were wrong. So I'm really glad, and I feel like getting deeper on this stuff is another part of, our world.
Caroline Roemer:Hey jud, can I say, I know we're closing out, but just like even the. Banter between Dana and I a again, you're looking at 18 years of working together, and I do wanna give a shout out to all the organizations that are not leading schools, that are not the school board, but that are nonprofits who have, deeply rooted themselves in a mission and help problem solve, help bring resources, help facilitate tough conversations. I, think that is one of the things that makes New orleans special. Now, it could exist in Indianapolis and other places as well, but I'm gonna do a shout out to New orleans for having this. Ecosystem of electeds, of educators and of, again, just pure, whether it's a political beast like myself or like an NSNO that really has the flexibility to move to the problem and help solve that problem on behalf of kids. It's, it really, it's, that's so cliche that it takes a village, right? But New orleans is nothing less than an example of full community engagement in improving public schools. Yeah. And without that ecosystem, you it, one entity cannot do it on their own. And so I love, Dana keeps me. Grounded a lot of times. I like to believe, I, help him stay grounded in some things as well, but I couldn't do the work I do without the school leaders and without the ns os of the world. It matters.
Jed Wallace:It's a theme. We talked talk about often just that coherence between our local advocacy efforts and our state advocacy efforts, and when they're together aligned to great things happen. You guys are a proof point of that. Jerel let me, let you, wrap us all up here. Any last thought that you have or is there any one part of the New orleans story that you think the charter school world may not fully appreciate? Any last thought you wanna, share with us?
Jerel Bryant:I, think I've, raised this, a couple of times, but I. Just how much we've adapted and learned and listened over the last 20 years.
Dana Peterson:Yeah.
Jerel Bryant:And to Dana's point. Caroline's points there's, yes, there's been right some, very clear threads and very clear lines along strategy and governance. But on the ground, the, beauty and the benefit of this system has been the ability to pivot based on students' needs again and again and to also recognize that while the culture that builds results, is, formed and curated within the walls of a space. Yeah. There's so much that happens outside of those walls yep. That, we, get to work with, we get to see, we get to honor and, we get to leverage, for what's best. And my, my, hope is that the, these next 20 years, we'll, be sitting here, and we'll be dis discussing Katrina 40 or post that,
Caroline Roemer:Oh my god, I'm gonna be like 80.
Jerel Bryant:But, to Dana's point, we're, not done. And, in many respects, I think we're just figuring it out. And, that's, the joy in this. So thank you for having us, and I thank you for the work you do.
Jed Wallace:Hey, thanks to all of you. And, I just think the example of New orleans, is one that our world should just dive more deeply into the presence of the three of you, reflective of the broader community, Jerel that spirit of learning. I believe that it's one of the things I love the most about the charter school movement, that we have actually evolved and changed and course corrected. And, I feel as though some of the course correcting that we might do right now might be best informed by the experience in, New orleans, or it's among the most ripe environments for us to learn from. So thank you for all that you are doing. Can't wait to see what you do over the next 20 years. And thanks for spending time with us here at charterfolk today.
Dana Peterson:Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Caroline Roemer:Thanks. Happy new year.
