On this episode of The ADHD Mums Podcast, Jane is joined by Ange as they explore the theme of perfectionism and its relationship with ADHD. They share personal experiences, starting with a humorous account of their chaotic mornings, highlighting the imperfect aspects of their lives. Ange, an ADHD coach, reflects on her perfectionist tendencies, rooted in childhood, where she would tear out entire pages if not perfect.

 Ange delves into her ADHD diagnosis at 35, sharing the challenges she faced in transitioning from one-on-one client work to leadership roles. The conversation navigates through various dimensions of perfectionism, discussing its impact on tasks, work, and self-worth. Both Jane and Ange emphasise the connection between perfectionism and shame, exploring how negative feedback and societal expectations contribute to this mindset. They discuss the difficulty of breaking the cycle and the importance of self-compassion, self-discovery, and courage in the recovery process.

Ange highlights the need for individuals to recognise their values, strengths, and preferences, encouraging authenticity. Ange shares a coaching example where challenging ingrained beliefs about laundry allowed a client to reclaim her Wednesdays. This episode sheds light on the complexity of perfectionism, its intersection with ADHD, and the steps toward recovery and self-acceptance.

Find out more about Angie here:

⁠https://angenennie.com.au/

Hello, and welcome to the next episode of ADHD Bums.

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We have a really anticipated theme

that I have been trying to find the

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right person to do for a long time,

and that is perfectionism and ADHD and

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who could be better than Angie, the

ADHD coach to discuss that with me.

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So welcome to you,

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Ange: Angie.

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Thank you.

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I'm excited.

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So

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Jane: we were saying that we have

gone off to the most imperfect start.

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So basically, as I was trying to

log on and I was also frantically

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eating lunch, Sickbay called from

one of my kids schools and I thought,

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of course, oh my god, Angie's

waiting and I'm going to have to go.

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And then, of course, they let me know

that I had not packed any lunch for

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one of my kids and then I had to give

them credit card details to try and get

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them, I suppose, get my child sorted.

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And the fact that they knew me and knew

my usual process, Was terrifying to me

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that I'd become commonplace call to the

mum and Angie also had a similar morning.

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If you want to share

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Ange: Angie.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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So I had a doctor's appointment at

eight 30 and I decided I had time to

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boil some eggs at about 10 past eight.

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So I was doing that and then needed

to get in the car and book it to the

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doctors and couldn't find my keys.

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So then I was like, that's fine.

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I.

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I had a bit of a rummage

when I couldn't find them.

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I was like, I've got the Tile app, so

I'm just gonna call my keys from my Tile.

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And, sure enough, the battery

had run out on the Tile.

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And so I couldn't find the keys.

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Turned out actually the keys were on

the front seat of the car for anyone

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who wanted to take the car overnight.

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And then, right before I left to come here

to the office to do this podcast with you,

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I lost my phone and I thought That's fine.

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I'll, I've changed the

battery now in the tile.

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I'll call my phone from my tile and found

the phone in the rain outside under the,

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you'll have to excuse my word finding

abilities at the moment, the clothesline.

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That's the word.

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So it's been working for both of us.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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It's fine.

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It wasn't heavy rain.

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Thankfully it was just spitting.

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Okay.

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Jane: Okay.

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And then Angie, of course, had

to email me because she hadn't

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sent me the Riverside link.

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Well, I hadn't sent

her the Riverside link.

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And then I said, Oh, Angie, what was

the other episode that we did before?

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We should really talk about that.

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And then neither of us could

remember what the episode was

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about, which is a good one.

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So we've looked that up and

it is called bored and tired.

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And then I said to Angie, funny, I

forgot that because that's actually

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in the top 10 episodes of all time.

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So, the fact that we didn't remember

doesn't reflect poorly on the episode.

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It's actually one of the most

downloaded episodes there is.

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So, there is that there.

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I just realized I haven't

even read your bio yet, Angie.

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This is going to be a ride.

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So, for those of you who haven't listened

to Angie's other episode called Bored

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and Tired, which is so my weekend, by

the way, Angie is a wife, a mom, an ADHD

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coach, and a co founder of the Sunshine

Coast ADHD Professionals Network.

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with Dr.

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Laura Bennett.

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Angie was diagnosed in October

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was a surprise to no one.

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Angie loves to support ADHDers

to understand their unique brain

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wiring, appreciate their gifts

and create the life they love.

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I truly believe that ADHDers are

uniquely wired to change the world.

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That is a very positive spin on it.

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So if you haven't listened to Angie's

other episode, Bored and Tired, I

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absolutely highly recommend that you do.

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Angie was one of the first, or

probably I think the first guest

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that I ever reached out to because

I really liked her Facebook.

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So give her a follow on Instagram.

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I always have a look at,

I like all your memes too.

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I often re share them.

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I'm like, Angie, that's a good one.

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So today we were talking

about what theme to do.

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And I had said to her that I had

been trying to search for the

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right person to do perfectionism.

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And so I love the irony and the

imperfect start that we have had.

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But we will persist because we are

both hardcore perfectionists, which

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is an interesting jam with ADHD.

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Ange: Absolutely.

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I think, though, it goes hand

in hand, and I'm sure we'll get

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into that a little bit later on.

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But I would say I'm definitely

a recovering perfectionist.

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I'm doing much better than I used to be.

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Okay.

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Jane: Okay.

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Well, that's great.

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I'm still in it.

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So this is going to be excellent

for me to be around somebody who's

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starting to move towards recovery.

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So Angie, for people that don't know you

and haven't listened to your last episode,

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can you give us a bit of an overview about

your diagnosis, journey, medication, and,

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and kind of who you are before we delve

into the specifics of perfectionism?

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Ange: Sure.

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So a lot of girls get missed because they

present more with the inattentive type.

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I got missed and I was the definition

of the hyperactive little boy.

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I had the masking tape square

around my desk at school and

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all sorts of other things.

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So it's just interesting.

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I guess it was the time that I grew

up in was really the factor that

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contributed to me not getting my

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So that happened right around the

same time that I returned to work

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after the birth of my second child.

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And.

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I just remember forgetting things

constantly and doing some really strange

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things that made me question myself.

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So I ended up going to the doctor thinking

that I had early onset dementia, which

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eventually after a whole bunch of other,

yeah, eventually I got my diagnosis

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in 2020 after I saw a psychologist

and then later saw a psychiatrist.

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So from there, I Tried lots of different

medications, have landed on Vyvanse,

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but at that time that I got diagnosed,

I'd just taken on a promotion at work

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as well, and I moved from doing the

work that I loved, which was one on

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one client work, into leadership, which

meant that I was doing task oriented

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work, and I realized very quickly

that I had shot myself in the foot.

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And so, In my reading and researching, as

most of us have experienced after we get

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our diagnosis, we go down the rabbit hole.

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I had come across ADHD coaching

and decided to give it a try.

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Unfortunately, I didn't have a great

experience and didn't get a lot out of it.

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So I sort of dismissed it for

a while, but later revisited

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it as a possibility for myself.

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Cause I thought my work in mental

health might translate really

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nicely into ADHD coaching, which

is where I find myself now.

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And so I've been full time in my ADHD

coaching practice since October last year.

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So.

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Just turned one and I started out in June.

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So I've been doing this for about a

year and a half now, close to, yeah.

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Jane: Congrats, I think one

year in your own business.

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It's not for the faint hearted,

especially with ADHD, you've got

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all of the things, all of the jobs,

including all the ones that you hate.

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So congrats.

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That's a big achievement.

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Ange: Thank you.

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Yeah.

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I actually knew from the get go,

if the business was going to fail,

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it would fail on admin or finances.

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So I was really.

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Intentional about getting the

finances and the admin side of things

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sorted before I even got started.

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Jane: Nice, nice.

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Yes.

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Nice.

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Okay.

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So let's jump into perfectionism and ADHD.

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I was wondering, I suppose, straight

up, if you could talk about yourself as.

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An example for perfectionism

and ADHD, and then maybe we

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move into the why afterwards.

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Just so people can kind of hear,

because I didn't really realize I was

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a perfectionist until kind of a year

ago, and I was like, oh wow, I think

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I am actually one of those people.

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Ange: Yeah, I think it's difficult to

see yourself as a perfectionist until

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it becomes a problem, but even looking

back in primary school, I remember

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if I didn't get everything right on

the page, I would tear the entire

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page out, or if I made a mistake.

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With my spelling, I would tear the

entire page out and start from scratch.

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So.

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The beginnings of my perfectionism were

there already when I was nine, 10 years

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old, and it only got worse from there.

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And so I remember many times

missing events because I didn't

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look the way that I wanted to look.

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I had a vision of how I

wanted to look for the event.

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And if I didn't match that

image, then I just wouldn't go.

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And there was nothing that anyone

could do to convince me otherwise.

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And I mean, there was some other,

there was an eating disorder in there

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and probably some body dysmorphia as

well, which as we know, often go along

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with ADHD, but that perfectionism was

always there driving that as well.

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And then, Oh, and I actually nearly

missed meeting my husband or getting

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to spend time with my husband for the

first time, because I had one of those

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situations where I didn't look the part.

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The way that I wanted to look, I

didn't like how I looked, so I wasn't

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going to go to this big dinner that

we were all supposed to go to, and in

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the end I went, I felt horrible about

myself, I was in a foul mood, but

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they sat me next to my now husband,

and we got to know each other, and he

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later became a big part of my story.

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Oh that's so

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Jane: funny, because you

would have looked perfect

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Ange: to him.

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Well, yeah, he says so, and

then I used to tell him his

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standards weren't high enough.

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Yeah.

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Oh, . That's funny.

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Oh yeah, sorry.

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We regress.

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You continue.

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Sorry.

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And then more recently, . More recently

I, and when I say recently, probably

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going back to the time of my diagnosis, I

started seeing a therapist and the thing

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that I took to therapy most often was.

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My inability to invite anybody over

to the house because my standard for

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cleanliness was so high and not in the

sense that there was any OCD, but the

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thought of inviting somebody over when

the house wasn't showroom perfect was.

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debilitating for me.

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And so I would take this

to therapy all the time.

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And I remember I had started to

allow people in just gradually.

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And my son has a friend

who lives down the street.

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Her dad came to pick her up one

day and I thought, Oh, he's a guy.

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He won't care.

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I'm just going to sort of test the waters,

a little bit of graded exposure therapy.

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And I invited him in.

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And he sat down, my husband had

been cooking this, these Dutch

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doughnuts and so he sat and

chatted with us and had doughnuts.

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And not too long later, we had a lot of

people over for a Halloween gig, we love

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to do the Jekyll Lanterns, so everyone was

coming over to carve the Jekyll Lanterns.

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Anyway, when he got to the door,

he was the first one to arrive

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and his wife was behind him.

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And he said, Oh!

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What's happened here?

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And I said, what do you mean?

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And he goes, it's clean and I nearly died.

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I wanted to sink into the floor.

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And you were thinking, this is why,

this is why I don't invite people

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over because of that comment.

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Yeah.

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And I don't think it was even really

that bad because my house usually wasn't.

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It's, he has one child, I have two, so.

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It's obviously going to be easier for

them to keep the place clean, but I don't

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think it was terrible on the day that

he came in, there was probably a lot of

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dishes from my husband's cooking, but.

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Nothing crazy, but I would

have the whole family.

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I had my son doing skirting boards.

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Exactly, right?

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Shut up and be grateful.

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Exactly.

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Jane: So did you say you had

your son doing skirting boards?

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Ange: Yeah, before people would

come over, I'd have my son

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cleaning the skirting boards.

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I'd have my husband doing the fans.

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I'd be doing all the windows.

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It was a whole operation.

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And that's part of the reason

that I didn't want to have people

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over too, was way too stressful

and took way too much effort.

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But the thing I realized

was that my values are

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connection, growth, and courage.

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And so it was really getting in the way

of me being able to connect with people

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in the way that I wanted and really

getting in the way of me being able

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to live out my values, which was why I

took it to therapy in the first place.

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Wow.

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Okay.

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Jane: Okay.

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So having to look yourself and your

house look perfect, what, was that

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your main area or was there other areas

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Ange: too?

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I would say mainly the

house and family life.

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I wanted that to look perfect, even

though you could make jokes about

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things being a mess, but you didn't

want it to actually be a mess.

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My work, I loved my work.

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I don't know if I would have

considered myself perfect.

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A perfectionist, but

definitely a workaholic.

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So perhaps there was some perfectionism

happening there too, that caused me to

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be at work longer than I needed to be.

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Yeah.

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Cause

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Jane: for me, I find perfectionism, like

it's hard for me to just leave things.

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And I'm just wondering if

that's the same for you.

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It's like I have to have

to respond to everybody.

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I have to respond to the emails.

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I have to have it done.

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And if there's a question on family

or self care or food and then

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getting back to everybody, I would

100 percent get back to everybody.

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Even though those people in a

year's time might not even be

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working in that company anymore.

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I would still feel the need to not

miss anybody, and if other people

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could just get up and leave and not

finish, I just couldn't understand

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how they could possibly even

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Ange: walk out.

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Yeah, I think that's a really common

struggle, especially with ADHD.

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I know that I often felt as though I put

external people's needs before the needs

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of my family, because you have acceptance

from your family, where you're trying

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to control other people's perceptions

of you when you're dealing with people

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outside of the family or people through

work or sort of anyone on the outside.

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And perfectionism ultimately is

about controlling perceptions.

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Jane: Yeah.

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Which is, as you said, is already,

you already have that there with

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your husband and kids potentially.

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So.

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You're less likely to be, like, although

I think there's also a lot of pressure

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on ADHD mums to be the perfect mum

and to be the perfect wife and have

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the perfect amount of therapy and the

perfect amount of extracurriculars,

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and there's a constant adjusting.

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For me, anyway, that's definitely a focus

of mine, and then I never feel like I've

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done enough, been enough, the kids have

enough, or then do they have too much?

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Should you then give them less?

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And then I'm in a whole spin around

what is the perfect recipe for a

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Ange: childhood.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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And you can go on and on and on with that.

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And I think what I see a lot of times

with my ADHD is is like, when it comes

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to tasks, for instance, there's, I've got

a few different thoughts going on here.

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But when it comes to tasks, we might put

everything on a huge long to do list.

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And then even looking at that list

is overwhelming, but we delude

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ourselves into thinking we can

rest when we get through it all.

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But the nature of tasks is that

most of them are cyclical, so

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they keep coming back and we

never get to the end of that list.

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So a lot of times when I'm working

with clients, it's about providing

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containers for those lists.

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Because we can't possibly.

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Get it all done.

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There's not enough time

in the day to do this.

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If you're living, if you're

living it, you know it well.

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And it feels as though we can never

rest when we're in that cycle.

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Jane: Yeah, and I think my

psychologist really led me to that.

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I think it was the one

after he diagnosed me.

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And I said to him, I really want to

stop living from this list on my phone.

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And he goes, Oh, why don't

you show me if it's okay?

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And I was like, yeah,

yeah, let me show you.

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So I'm like, so like

intense about my list.

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I showed him, I had 560 notes.

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All of them were pages long, then

they were categorized, and then

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they were in today's, and then there

was critical lists, non critical

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lists, and all these other lists.

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And he said to me, I have never

seen a more complex system.

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And I said to him, I need to know

how to stop living like this.

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And he's like, just stop adding to it.

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And my whole head exploded.

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I was like, what do you mean?

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That's my purpose is to add to my list.

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And not like, and he's like,

let's just delete them.

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And I was like, no fucking way.

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Ange: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Because we become dependent on it.

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And I think a lot of us to have like our

self worth is tied to our productivity.

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Maybe we've learned that

I was as we grew up.

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And so then we don't feel.

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As though we can ever rest because

productivity equals worth equals value.

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And so we just keep on that hamster

wheel running, running, running.

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Go, go, go, go, go.

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Jane: Yeah.

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And I wonder if perfectionism

is actually an addiction.

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Because if you think about like alcohol

and food, for example, it's like something

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to do to get away from yourself in my

personal view, like I'm feeling stressed.

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I'm feeling like kids are doing this.

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I'm going to have a glass of wine.

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I'm going to eat some food.

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And it can be for some people

a real problem for them.

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And sometimes I wonder with

perfectionism, whether it's like

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productivity addiction, where for

me, I'm like, is this perfectionism

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where I keep playing with things and

I can't stop touching everything.

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even though it's done, that

I want to make it better.

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Is it just because I'm not

wanting to sit with myself?

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And I was wondering what your

thoughts would be on that.

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Ange: Well, I think Brene

Brown said it when she said,

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we're all wired for connection.

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And so, when perfectionism shows

up, usually, shame is underneath it.

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And shame being, as Brene defines

it, that fear that we're not worthy.

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of love and belonging.

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And so then, when we do feel that

fear, we tend to try to hide, or

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we pretend like everything's fine,

or we try to control things, or

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numb things, or we perfect them.

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And so it's often shame that

drives that perfectionism, and it's

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shame that often drives addiction.

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So in that way, they're, they're similar.

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They're symptoms of Shame.

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Jane: Yeah.

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And then it's kind of like, I'm

not enough, like if you're a

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child, I'm not enough to be me.

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I'm enough.

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If I do all of these things and I

achieve all of these things, if I'm

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not doing that, I won't be loved.

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Is that the way you're going with that?

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Ange: Yeah, I think so.

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And I mean, if you consider with

ADHD, most of us as kids have grown up

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hearing negative feedback or corrective

feedback about ourselves all our lives.

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And it's constantly reinforced by

different authority figures in our lives.

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And usually those people who are in

positions of authority when we're

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younger, it's their voices that

become our inner voice in adulthood.

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And so then we develop these

harsh inner critics that are

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like taskmasters, slave drivers.

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They keep us.

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It's working for our, our worth,

hustling for our worth, as Brene

378

puts it, love a bit of Brene.

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Jane: Oh, me too.

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Me too.

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So why do you think it's so

difficult to break the cycle?

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Because I thought being medicated

now, I thought it would be easier

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and I'm still finding myself in that

cycle, even though I think the drive

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has probably backed off a little bit.

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but yet I'm still actually

doing the same things.

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Ange: Well, I think when it comes to

finding the antidote, like again, going

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back to Brene, worthiness is that belief

that you're worthy of love and belonging.

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And so a lot of the work that has to

happen in order To prevent us from

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defaulting to perfectionism, if that's

been our default, is that we have to

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start developing self compassion and

we have to start the work of unmasking

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and finding those people who love

us regardless of our imperfections.

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And we need to start experimenting

with doing things our way.

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It takes a lot of courage

and a lot of vulnerability.

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And I think for many of us.

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We're so afraid, we're still scared

because we've been told all our lives

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that we're too much or not enough.

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And that obviously has a huge impact.

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When we're wired for belonging,

we desperately want belonging.

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We feel already like there's

something wrong with us.

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And so it can be two biggest step.

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Sometimes it can feel like two

biggest step, but ultimately that's

402

where we find freedom is that self

compassion and the self acceptance

403

and unmasking, but it's not easy.

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No, and that

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Jane: can be really hard.

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Like as a child, as you talk

about the negative messaging.

407

Because if you're getting, and we know the

research shows that ADHD kids get a lot

408

more negative messages than other kids.

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So if our kids are receiving that

negative response more often at school,

410

if they come home and we are, uh, maybe

preoccupied with our task list or what

411

we did and didn't get to do that day in

what we deemed as important and we're not

412

really connected with them or we're not

on their side in whatever they are dealing

413

with at that time, then I'm trying to

imagine how that would then be for them.

414

And that's what drives me to try and

stop at times to break the cycle is

415

because I'm like, well, how can I

really be present in this situation?

416

Someone ate my kids pretzels

from his lunchbox and that's

417

a really big upset for him.

418

If I'm actually just thinking about

returning the toaster to the good guys

419

and when really no one's going to have

toast in the morning, it's not a big

420

deal, but I want to take it off my list.

421

Where is the priorities?

422

Because when you get more self

aware, I think I've seen myself as

423

the level of productivity has become

less important, even though I still

424

do it, but I can catch myself going,

actually, I'm still doing this action,

425

but this is actually not important.

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Ange: Yeah.

427

And I think that's what's really important

about the self discovery that has to

428

happen and usually happens in adulthood.

429

Like, it's really important to know

what you value and that helps to guide

430

what you prioritize in your life.

431

And so when you have those moments

where you might be defaulting to

432

perfectionism, you can catch yourself and

return to your values and go, Actually,

433

what is most important to me here?

434

Mm.

435

Jane: Mm.

436

Absolutely.

437

So, when you said you're a recovering

perfectionist, I'm very curious.

438

What do you think the steps

are in recovery if we think

439

about Perfectionism Anonymous?

440

If we were running that, what

would, I mean, God, I'd love to

441

attend one of those meetings.

442

What would be some of the

steps that, you know, you think

443

would be important in that?

444

Ange: Well, I think self compassion is

key because it precedes self acceptance.

445

We need to be able to treat

ourselves in the same way that we

446

would treat a good friend, or our

child, or someone who we value.

447

Because, usually, if we visited our

friends, and they were stressed out,

448

and things, We're all over the place.

449

Usually we're really

compassionate towards them.

450

We're not beating them over the head

with a stick, telling them to clean

451

it all up and what's wrong with

you and everyone else can do this.

452

Why can't you?

453

But we're really harsh on ourselves.

454

So self compassion is key and

it's something that takes time

455

and practice to cultivate.

456

Then I think we really need

to get into self-discovery.

457

So we need to understand what we

value, what are our strengths?

458

What are we actually

bringing to the table?

459

Because most of us focus on our

weaknesses at the expense of

460

acknowledging our strengths.

461

What do I actually prefer?

462

What are my standards?

463

Because oftentimes we find

that we're, we're living.

464

up to the expectations of the culture,

or we're living up to the expectations

465

of our family unit, or we're not

living a life that's authentic to us.

466

And so we need some like real

time in self reflection and

467

introspection to figure out.

468

What we care about and how we

can orient our lives around that.

469

And then we need the courage to

be able to do things differently.

470

I mean, I remember working with a

girl who she was supposed to work a

471

four day week and have Wednesdays off.

472

But what was happening for her was that

she would spend all Wednesday cleaning

473

and she wouldn't actually have any rest

time, which was why she was working

474

a four day week in the first place.

475

And so when we got into it, what

was actually the sticking point

476

was the laundry and specifically

the folding of the laundry.

477

And she realized that she was waiting all

day, like putting it off and putting it

478

off because she hated the job so much.

479

And then finally she would do it at

the end of the day, but then the day's

480

gone and she hadn't managed to actually

relax because anytime that she was

481

sitting down, she couldn't truly rest

or relax because she had that pressure

482

hanging over her of the laundry.

483

And I asked the question in the

coaching session, is it necessary?

484

And it's a simple question.

485

But for her, all these lightbulbs started

going off, and she realized, actually,

486

most of my clothes don't require ironing.

487

They're not the kind of things

that are going to crease too much,

488

or look bad if they are creased.

489

I don't have to do that at all.

490

And one time actually, I was living at

my mom's place and she divided all of

491

my clothes up into these clear plastic

tubs and just threw them in there

492

and it made things so much easier.

493

So maybe what I need to do

is just get another chest of

494

drawers and then I'm sorted.

495

So now she just throws all the laundry

in the drawers and calls it a day

496

and she's got her Wednesdays back.

497

And so it took though her giving

herself permission to do things

498

differently than might be expected.

499

in order to do that for herself and

in order to keep her life functional.

500

Jane: Yet it's sometimes that

rigid thinking too, isn't it?

501

Where it's like, it has to be this way.

502

But when you actually have someone

ask questions like what you're

503

saying, they start to go, why

does it have to be that way?

504

I have no idea.

505

And then they've probably been

living with this thing with these

506

Wednesdays in the laundries for so

long, never questioning the why.

507

I think that's such a great.

508

analogy because then she had her

Wednesdays off to rest because she

509

wasn't consumed by this one job.

510

Ange: But that, sometimes it's

511

Jane: like that with ADHD because

it's like you can't problem solve.

512

You can, but sometimes when it's your

own self and it's a small problem,

513

but a large issue, it's like you

can't see hill for the trees with it.

514

I find that all the time.

515

I'm like, how did I not think of that?

516

Then it comes to you and you're

like, yeah, that was really

517

Ange: stressing me out.

518

Yeah.

519

And it's such a simple

fix a lot of the time.

520

I think also one of the things I didn't

say was that it's really important to

521

connect with people who love you, no

matter what they accept you, regardless

522

of your imperfections, you've got to

find your tribe and that takes some time.

523

Oftentimes we.

524

Don't, we haven't naturally

formed those groups.

525

Often times we, without meaning

to, have gravitated towards

526

other neurodivergent folk.

527

But, some of us don't have that.

528

But I think it's really

important to find that.

529

Because even in my own life, it

was really finding a workplace

530

that valued my contribution.

531

Was willing to overlook some of my

challenges or laugh them off with me.

532

Which is another, another thing

that I've done that's really

533

worked, I think, in my favour.

534

I laugh these things off and

it's disarming for people.

535

They are, I don't know, I guess more

likely to laugh it off with you and

536

find it endearing or funny as opposed

to annoying if you're able to see the

537

humor in it and own your mistakes.

538

But getting back to finding

your tribe, it can't be.

539

understated how important that is because

you can really only be vulnerable and be

540

courageous enough to be your authentic

self in an environment where you have

541

safety and you're not going to be

ridiculed, criticized for being yourself

542

because it takes a huge amount of courage

when you've spent your whole life masking

543

to gradually start taking that mask off.

544

Yeah

545

Jane: and I think with ADHD you can

impulsively Share too, and you want

546

to make sure that if you are going to

be vulnerable, you're with the right

547

people because you don't want to start

getting vulnerable or attempting to

548

laugh a few things off and you're

actually not in a safe environment.

549

Same as if you get diagnosed, I probably

wouldn't start with people that you're

550

not sure about or maybe siblings.

551

If you've got a history of them not being

supportive, I wouldn't call them first.

552

Probably not a

553

Ange: great place to start.

554

A hundred percent.

555

And I think most of us naturally

start to find our tribe online.

556

We start to relate to other people

when we first get diagnosed and we go

557

down the rabbit hole and we realize in

these Facebook groups or whatever that

558

there's so many people out there like us.

559

And then gradually, That gives

us permission to be ourselves.

560

And the more ourselves we are when

we're out there in the world, the more

561

likely it is that we're going to attract

people like us and who will accept us.

562

Jane: Yeah, absolutely.

563

So with your recovery in perfectionism,

what do you think has been the largest

564

tool, so you've obviously the community

and also using humor, if there's anyone

565

else listening, that's wanting to.

566

Start on the road to recovery

and they want to at least

567

try and make some changes.

568

What would be some good kind

of ways to get started at

569

Ange: least?

570

I mean, I think, so Kristen

Neff's website, selfcompassion.

571

org, so it's self compassion.

572

org, has tons of self compassion

practices, even the one that I mentioned

573

earlier, how would you treat a friend?

574

That's one of the exercises

she has listed on her website

575

and one that I've used a lot.

576

For myself and with other people.

577

As well as that, I think it's If you can

do some values work to understand what

578

it is, that's most important to you.

579

And usually in my coaching sessions, at

some point in time, we're going to do

580

work around values and narrow it down

to your top three so that it's really

581

easy to recall them in the moment and

filter your decisions through them more.

582

When you feel like things are a

little bit off in your life, you can

583

call on your values and view your

life through that lens and go, okay.

584

Where am I misaligned here?

585

What's going on and pull your life

back into alignment with your values.

586

Cause anytime we're operating

outside of our values, it's

587

going to be unsustainable.

588

And then, yeah, I think, as I said

before, finding your tribe, if you can

589

try to find a support group in your

local area, or try to connect some way

590

with some other ADHD is in your life,

that's always really helpful, or even

591

just neuro divergent folk in general.

592

Because we all have that shared

experience of feeling like we're

593

different somehow, like maybe

there's something wrong with us.

594

And so you can connect that way.

595

But yeah, I mean, ultimately it

comes down to self acceptance and

596

part of that is the unmasking.

597

And that just takes time,

gradual shedding and gradual like

598

steps of, of courage towards.

599

Unmasking.

600

Jane: Yeah.

601

And that's it.

602

I mean, that might be a lifelong

lesson for some of us, myself included,

603

which I suppose then again, goes back

to self compassion in that you can't

604

decide that you are going to no longer

behave this way when this is how you've

605

always been, and this is the positive

reinforcement that you've received.

606

And then suddenly you're going to just.

607

shift because you're now going to

perfectly be on the path to recovery

608

because that's also the pressure, right?

609

Because now you're like, I

know now I'm a perfectionist.

610

I will perfectly recover quickly and

seamlessly and then I will teach others

611

and inspire and lead because that's the

type of perfectionist brain that we have.

612

Ange: Yeah, and inevitably we'll end

up failing and then we've got to use

613

self compassion and the more we use

that, it's like a muscle, the more

614

we use self compassion The better we

become at using self compassion and

615

retraining that voice in our head to be

in instinctively more self compassionate.

616

Yeah, absolutely.

617

Jane: Have you heard

of the latest research?

618

They're saying that I think

they're starting it in the US.

619

I don't know if they're doing it

here yet, that in the eating disorder

620

clinics, they're starting to do

ADHD testing when people arrive.

621

Have you heard

622

Ange: that?

623

Yeah, I have.

624

I don't know a ton about it, but

it makes a huge amount of sense.

625

Absolutely,

626

Jane: because I was trying to figure

out, I was like, wow, well if a lot of

627

us are 35 plus when we get diagnosed,

imagine turning up to an eating disorder

628

clinic at 13, 14, whatever you are, and

actually getting diagnosed then and there.

629

And, I mean, what a life changing.

630

And the same with juvenile detention and

some of those particular places that are

631

being set up or alcohol and drug rehab, if

they start to test for ADHD there, because

632

I do wonder if you have an ADHD brain

and an eating disorder, and I know we're

633

going off track slightly, to give those

particular girls or women or men, whoever

634

they are, these strategies, ADHD brain.

635

And then there's a sense of failure.

636

That doesn't go well with

a perfectionist brain.

637

Ange: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

638

I think a lot of those populations

are massively underserved and

639

unrecognized as having ADHD.

640

So the more that we can do to make sure

that people are assessed earlier in their

641

lives and given the support that they

need earlier, the less People are going

642

to have to struggle with perfectionism

later in life or addiction or workaholism

643

or the controlling and the hiding and the

pretending and the numbing and all the

644

other things that we talked about earlier.

645

Jane: Yeah, absolutely.

646

Absolutely.

647

Now, Angie, I think we have

hit the head nail on the head

648

pretty quickly with that one.

649

What I think would be really great

is I'm going to put the show notes

650

in for Kristen Neff because that

sounds like a really good resource.

651

Perfectionism.

652

Thank you so much for your time.

653

Is there anything extra that

you want to share before we go?

654

Any final.

655

Passing notes to any ADHD recovering

656

Ange: perfectionists.

657

Look, I think ultimately the antidote

to perfectionism is self compassion.

658

And so I would direct people to have

a look at Kristen Neff's website.

659

Again, that is Kristen, K R I S

T I N dash Neff, N E F F dot org.

660

And she has so many

great resources on there.

661

She's got a couple of

books, a workbook even.

662

And.

663

I think that's such a great place to

start and from there you can work towards

664

self acceptance, unmasking all the

other good things, but self compassion

665

is where it all starts ultimately.

666

Jane: Okay, well I will be going

on a website straight after this

667

which is going to be a ride for me.

668

Thank you, you've taught me a lot.

669

I really, really appreciate your

time and I think there'll be a lot

670

of perfectionist listening that will.

671

Hopefully at least know where

to start because I think with

672

perfectionism sometimes we can't

get started until it's perfect.

673

What's the perfect path forward?

674

So many questions.

675

So I think it's great to have a path

forward and to at least get started

676

rather than sitting where I am and

go, I know I'm a perfectionist.

677

I can't stop doing it.

678

That there it's, at some point it

becomes an excuse and you know, you

679

really need to challenge yourself.

680

So I really appreciate your time.

681

If anyone would like to

work with Angie further.

682

I'm going to put her website in the show

notes and give her a follow on Instagram.

683

Instagram.

684

But thank you so much

for your time, Angie.

685

It's been

686

Ange: great.

687

Absolute pleasure.

688

It's always fun.