In this episode of the eCommerce Podcast, host Matt Edmundson sits down with Leandro D'Elias from EightX, offering a deep dive into the intersection of numbers and strategy in driving eCommerce success. Whether you're just starting out or plotting a profitable exit, this episode is packed with actionable insights.

Key Discussion Points:

1. The Illusion of High Turnover: Understanding why chasing big sales numbers might not always equate to business health and longevity.
2. Strategic Salary for Founders: Leandro advises on compensating yourself in a way that fuels growth rather than draining resources.
3. Exit Strategy Optimisation: How maximising your profits not only increases your tax but significantly boosts the value of your business upon sale.
4. The Secret to Sustainable Growth: Unveiling "Smart Growth Secrets" that focus on long-term success over short-term gains.

Takeaways:

• Emphasise profitability to ensure the sustainable growth of your eCommerce venture.
• Draw only what you need for living expenses in the early stages, reinvesting the remainder to promote business growth.
• Enhance your EBITDA for a more lucrative business sale, accepting higher tax liabilities as a trade-off for greater overall value.
• Understanding the opportunity cost of every dollar and investing in areas with the highest return potential.

About Leandro D'Elias:

Leandro is a seasoned finance professional with a deep understanding of how to bridge the gap between numbers and strategy to foster eCommerce success. His expertise spans multinational corporations to innovative startups, guiding them toward creating legacy-building revenue through precision budgeting and strategic financial planning.

Episode Resources:

• EightX: Dive deeper into the financial strategies that can catapult your eCommerce business into profitability.
• LinkedIn: Connect with Leandro D'Elias for more insights into financial planning and eCommerce strategy.

Don’t miss out on future episodes packed with expert insights to take your eCommerce venture to the next level. We love to hear your thoughts. Drop us a comment or reach out directly to discuss any questions or feedback. Tune in to "From Startup to Profit: Smart Money Strategies for Growth" for a masterclass in navigating the financial complexities of eCommerce, ensuring your venture not only survives but thrives in today's competitive market.

Hello and welcome to the eCommerce Podcast with

me, your host, Matt Edmundson.

Now, the eCommerce Podcast is a show all about helping you deliver eCommerce wow.

Yes, it is.

It's there to help.

It's here.

It's part of the eCommerce life now to be a member, a

regular subscriber of the show.

And to help us today, we're going to be chatting with Leandro D'Elias from Eightx

about numbers and strategy about bridging the two things together in such a way.

That actually drives real eCommerce success, which let's

face it, ladies and gentlemen, is what we're all interested in.

Yes, it is.

We all want a little bit of that.

Don't we?

At least I do now.

So grab your notebooks, grab your pens.

It's going to be fun.

But of course, before we get into that, let me just take a few moments to say a

big warm welcome to all our new listeners.

If this is your first time with us on the eCommerce Podcast,

Stoked you're here, man.

Really stoked.

It's awesome that you've taken the time to listen to us and the show is

growing and so if you'll keep coming back, also a big warm welcome to you.

Really excited that you're here.

You know what, every week I look at the numbers and I'm always super proud.

They're going up and up.

And I just, I love that.

I totally love that.

So thank you for being part of the eCommerce Podcast.

Thank you for being with us.

Now today's show is brought to you by the eCommerce Cohort.

This is our monthly membership group where you can join us, come

join in Some fun around eCommerce.

We have expert workshops in there.

We've got all kinds of weird and wonderful things going on.

Like you get to watch the recording of a podcast live.

So you can get to ask the guests your questions, all those kinds of cool things.

So do check out eCommerce Cohort if you haven't done so already, but great to

see you in there at eCommerceCohort.

com.

Oh yes, that's eCommerceCohort.

com.

Now let's talk about today's guest then.

Leandro.

Oh yes.

He's from it's just let's just say he's in Argentina because that's where

he actually is, which is surprised me a little bit, but I'm just loving the

fact this is a global eCommerce podcast.

Oh yes.

So from guiding eCommerce ventures through financial minefields.

We've all been in those minefields, let's face it.

To crafting innovative financial blueprints, he is a charismatic

finance professional reshaping narratives and turning clicks

into legacy building revenue.

With a knack for precision budgeting and strategic loan sourcing, Leandro's

journey spans from multinational corporations to spearheading financial

strategies for an array of pioneering companies like Alphapore and S E N E.

I'm not even sure what that company is, but I'm sure it's very good anyway.

It's great to have you on the show, Leandro.

How are we doing?

Leandro D'Elias: Hi Matt, it's nice to meet you, thank you for having me here.

Thank you for the intro but I'm really glad to be sitting

here and talking to you.

Super cool.

All the way from Argentina?

No doubt.

Whereabouts in Argentina?

Leandro D'Elias: far away from you, I'm around 40 kilometers away

from the capital of Buenos Aires

okay.

Leandro D'Elias: living in the countryside,

Living in the countryside of Argentina, it can't be a bad thing.

I dare say that at the time of recording the weather is much better.

It doesn't matter any time of the year, the weather's going to be always much

better for you than it is for me in cold, dreary England right now, right?

Leandro D'Elias: although it's raining today, but yeah.

It's raining but it's still 30 degrees outside, right?

Leandro D'Elias: Yeah, it's amazing how hot it is.

I think it's 4 degrees here today or something crazy.

It's very different, so I'm slightly envious.

You know what, in all my yeah.

In all my years of travelling, I've only ever traveled through Argentina.

I've never actually stayed there.

And it's definitely on mine and my wife's bucket list to go back.

We were, we traveled through Buenos Aires when we went to

Uruguay for a little while.

We went we went there to visit with some friends.

And I'm just a big fan of South America.

The whole continent, just amazing.

Have you always

Leandro D'Elias: sure to let me know when you're here.

Oh, yeah, no

Leandro D'Elias: Sorry?

Have you always been in Argentina?

Are you, have you,

Leandro D'Elias: yes.

Born and raised here but I like to travel around the world, so every time I can

take a plane and go visit somewhere.

Yeah.

Why would you

Leandro D'Elias: to London one time but yeah, definitely I

need to go to Italy right now.

Oh, love Italy.

Love it.

Before we get into eCommerce, let's deal with the elephant in the room football.

There's always a big thing.

I don't know if it's the same in Argentina, but when England and

Argentina play, it's always a big thing because there's a lot of

fans in England who have very long memories with Maradona handballing

calling the handball the hand of God.

Yeah.

So you are familiar with the story.

Okay, good.

Leandro D'Elias: Yes,

I was just curious because obviously it's a big deal here,

that whole thing, from I think it was 1986, now I remember I was 13 at the

time but I just assumed it was an England thing, just England not getting over it.

Leandro D'Elias: No, I think it's about the whole history

between the two countries.

You have the Malvinas War you have Maradona's goal, but I think every

time that Argentina and England played, play it's going to be like

a classic match where everyone think it's a war thing when at the end of

the day, it's just a football game.

Yeah, I definitely, it's one of our classic rivals and it's both of

them are really good football teams.

So the good thing is that we were.

Champions, that's 2022, so it was since 1986, so it was a big day for us.

I don't know if you saw the newspapers, but I think 5 million

people were in the streets

Yeah, it's crazy.

You guys know how to party when there's a big celebration.

Leandro D'Elias: It's a religion here.

Football is the main thing here in Argentina.

Yeah, it's crazy, isn't it?

You had Messi, didn't you, in the and winning the cup the World Cup and all

that, the story behind that was all quite wonderful, and yeah, no, loved

it, loved that whole season, obviously.

Was never a big fan of the hand of God but what can you do?

Leandro D'Elias: what usually what I say is I'm a big fan of the second goal,

which is probably one of the best goals in

Oh

Leandro D'Elias: So I think he, he was able to say, okay,

I did the goal with one hand.

But then I did the best,

the best goal

Leandro D'Elias: goal of the history.

Yeah, I remember the run very well, you just you knew what

was coming, so yeah, no very good.

And when you said it's just football, I think half the audience that listens

to the show would have gone, yes, you're right, and the other half of

the audience would go, how dare you

Leandro D'Elias: Probably wants to kill me,

Nah, I'm a big fan of football, don't get me wrong.

But yeah, it's, oddly, it's weird, or every time that I see these kind

of things, I'm shocked about how people react about a football game.

If my team loses here in Argentina, maybe people don't

even go to work, the next day.

So it's crazy how we react to a football game.

And I probably that's coming from Italy and also from England, because I don't

know if there are too many countries that.

Leave football the way we do, England, Italy, probably Spain, France, but then

you don't see that on any other country.

Yeah, it's, to me, I like to watch football games and I shout and

I want my team to win, but sadly I'm not the other half that says.

Yes, I cry and I go crazy if my team loses,

Yeah, life still carries on.

It's okay.

We don't, we haven't given up the hope of living.

Yeah.

No, I'm with you.

I'm with you.

It's one of those so let's talk about eCommerce.

It's the eCommerce Podcast.

We should probably talk about something to do with eCommerce, but

although football's very fascinating.

Now, we've had on the show, if you're a regular listener to the show, you

may remember Matt Putra was on the show a few months ago from Eightx,

you and Matt worked together and have been working together in Eightx, and

so you're both CFOs, you're both CFOs.

Chief Finance Officers.

You're both finance whiz kids.

You both love numbers, spreadsheets, and almost as much as you

love football, I'm guessing.

But it's one of those things where for many people, yes.

Excellent.

I was going to say, it's one of those things where I think I spend

probably a quarter of my life in.

Looking at data, spreadsheets and numbers and things like that.

But I can't say as I've ever really enjoyed it.

And one of the things I've always struggled with what numbers to look at

and when Matt came on, he talked about creating a spreadsheet called The Blended

ROAS document and he talked through

Leandro D'Elias: yes,

how to create the blended ROAS and how it should

be the one number you focus on.

And I have to be honest with you, since that show, I have created said

spreadsheet and I look at it religiously.

And shout out to Matt for that because it's been very helpful.

Leandro D'Elias: He could help.

Yeah.

It's been really good in some of our conversations as well, and

just in tracking, marketing, and how well we're doing and stuff.

So where did your love of numbers come from?

Was this from when you were a kid or did you get a bang on the head when

you were in your late teenage years?

Yeah,

Leandro D'Elias: No, since I was a kid, I was a big fan, or I

wouldn't say a big fan, but I find myself doing really good at math.

And it was easy for me to do calculations and stuff.

Then I went ahead and studied industrial engineer.

I know I'm talking about eCommerce and financing stuff.

I'm an industrial engineer.

So that's my calculation side of it.

But yeah, I like numbers, and usually, probably because I'm an engineer, I like

to understand my decisions based on facts.

And in this case, facts are numbers.

The numbers don't lie and we try to create a story out of what we're seeing.

I think that the answer to the question is I like to back my decisions on trends,

on data, on numbers, and that's why we do all this kind of analysis depending on the

roles and things like that because we want to understand not because of what we think

or you don't get me wrong, usually the gut feeling it's always or usually right, but

if we Say, okay I get the sense of we're going in this direction or that direction.

If we can look at the numbers and confirm that probably it's going to be way better

And you go and do the thing with much more confidence.

I think that's the main difference.

When you do something just because you think it's going to be a good or a bad

thing rather than when you do something knowing because you analyzed all the

information and you see the trends and things like that probably it's a

psychological thing, but I think that you do it with much more confidence.

Yeah, no, it's very true and I love that because I think

your industrial engineering background, engineers like to understand things,

don't they like to understand how things work, how to put things

together in a way that makes sense and,

Leandro D'Elias: Since I was a little kid I was the kid standing

right next to the electrician in my house asking, why do you do this?

Why do you do that?

I'm that kind of person.

I love to ask why.

yeah,

Leandro D'Elias: I know that it's something, it's annoying, but yeah,

I'm usually asking why this, why that,

yeah, why

Leandro D'Elias: until I understand, I don't stop asking.

yeah, no, I think it's a great mind to have, actually,

the curious mind, I think if you're curious, you tend to do well, and

you just keep asking questions.

And whenever we stop being curious, I think that's when we get maybe a

little bit too judgmental or maybe just a little bit too sure of ourselves.

I don't know.

I, either one.

So when we were talking before we hit the record button you mentioned how when you

sit down and talk with clients, there's a couple of common problems that they have

and the main one being, and I thought this was interesting coming from a CFO.

The main problem being that they don't know what they want

they dunno what the goal is.

What do you mean by that?

Leandro D'Elias: Yeah, the thing about that is I know, but that being the

CFO, it's not usually the question that you get asked from a CFO, and probably

that's my engineering talking, but usually what I see is that we think we

know what we want to achieve or where we're going to want to get, but we don't

know how to get there, or we don't know what tools we need, what resources we

need, and that's usually one of my first talks when I'm onboarding a new client.

What I try to understand is, What do you want to achieve here?

I know that we are talking about a company selling something and all the first thing

that we should want is profitability.

You would be shocked about how many clients don't even say

the word profitability first.

Dunno.

What do they say first?

Leandro D'Elias: They want to achieve X amount of million dollars in revenue.

They want to sell X amount of units, they want to be the best ones selling

X service in the market, which I get it, it's great, but I think that the,

what I try to tell them or give them at the beginning is organization, let's

get your ideas organized and use any framework that you would like to use.

There, there's something called EOS.

There are a bunch of tools to understand strategy most for

eCommerce company or startups.

That's why I mentioned EOS.

It's one of the tools we use.

But the thing is let's get organized.

What do you want?

Of course, my goal is going to make you profitable and make

you profitable in a healthy way

Yeah.

Leandro D'Elias: So that you don't waste all your money But then let's say you want

to achieve a 10 million dollar revenue.

That's great.

Now my line of questioning is going to be how do you want to get there?

How many units do you need to sell?

to get there, to understand even if that's feasible, and then let me

worry about the numbers in terms of financing, in terms of how many how

much money do, should we spend on advertising based on that blended ROAS.

Yeah.

Leandro D'Elias: Because if you want to achieve 10 million and you want to spend

1, 000 in marketing, probably you're not going to get there unless you have

a super efficient marketing agency.

In which case we want them on the show, right?

We need to talk to these people.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Leandro D'Elias: but yeah, that's when I come to the game and try

to align your goal with a proper strategy and make it feasible.

Why do you think it, just to clarify, you mentioned

EOS, which stands for, as long as I'm talking about the same EOS, the

Entrepreneurial Operating System which is based on a book, isn't it?

I can't remember the name of the book now.

But it's just a really

Leandro D'Elias: are a couple of them.

Yeah.

Leandro D'Elias: One is called Traction, the other one is DOS

System, which is a book itself.

I love the system, and I think it's a good way to put a name to some of the things

that you probably are currently doing.

Like, all of us We have set up goals in the long term, in the short term and,

but we don't know why we're doing them,

Yeah.

Leandro D'Elias: or we don't have the proper framework to do it.

This system, what it does, mainly for small companies or companies that are

just starting or are not big companies, is that they, it gives them a tool to put a

name to everything that they need to do.

And to get them organized, like I said, let's set up the yearly goal, we

want to achieve this, but then let's set up quarterly goals, let's set up

KPIs, OKRs, so that you are aligned.

And you don't work for the yearly goal, you work to achieve the quarterly

goals that, if you achieve them, you're going to get closer to the yearly goal.

So I think it's a great tool to know what you're doing and put a name

to the things that you probably are doing right now, while you're mumbling

around and maybe you don't prioritize.

Things that you need to do to be aligned to the main goal.

Yeah, I've read the book.

I've read all of his books, actually.

The EOS books.

Great book.

Especially if you need some kind of framework for your

business to understand it.

It is a great

Leandro D'Elias: recommend.

And the name of the author will come back to me.

At some point, I've got it up on the screen here in front of me, actually

the actual model where he talks about vision people, data, issues, processes,

and then what he calls traction.

And that's the sort of the six elements he thinks about.

Why do you think, just going back to something you said earlier, why do you

think when you ask most people who run an online business, and I'm smiling because

I think this is probably a very true truism when you ask most people that run

an online business, what's your goal?

And the goal is always related to a turnover.

And usually that turnover figure is, I want to get to 100, 000, I want

to hit a million, I want to hit 5 million, I want to hit 10 million.

Do you know what I mean, there's sort of these standard numbers

that everybody wants to hit.

I've never really heard anybody come back and say, I want to make a million

pounds profit, or I've never really heard people say, I want to do 2.

376

million next year in turnover.

Do you know what I mean?

It's always, I want to grow by 20%, always these sort of random

numbers that people throw out.

Why is that?

Why are we so concerned about the big?

Turnover number

Leandro D'Elias: I think that if I have to give you my opinion

of that is that usually we tend to associate revenue to profit.

So if, and that's probably what we're hearing in the TV

or even when we hear about.

I don't know, Apple just released their Q3 statements, and they don't say they

achieved this or that revenue or sorry, profit or this or that ratio or KPI.

Usually what they say is they increased revenue.

And for the non financial persons Anything that they can talk about when it comes

to numbers of any company, the first thing that you talk about is revenue.

How much money you sold.

So my guess is that tend to associate that to profit.

And the big difference about that is that you could be selling 10

million of any kind of product, you also could be spending 10, 000, 000.

So what's the point of having a business and saying out there I'm

selling 10, 000, 000 when you're actually not making any dime?

So I guess that the main to answer that is we tend to associate revenue with profit.

If you're selling 10 million, probably you're making a lot of money.

That's the usual thing that

that's the assumption, isn't it?

If I've got a 10m or 10m turnover, then yes, I'm going to hopefully

be making some kind of profit.

When you, and I appreciate this is going to vary from industry to industry, right?

But if I was starting out in eCommerce, and I'm thinking I'm going to set up an

online business, if I turned over say a million in revenue, what would be a

typical gross profit margin and what would be a typical net profit margin

that I should think about or aim for?

Leandro D'Elias: if you're just starting, probably you will want to,

all the money that you're making, probably you're going to reinvest

that money to grow the business.

I would aim first to break even.

There are many businesses that I know that in the first 20 years, six months,

they're not going to break even.

So you need to assume that probably in the first six months to 12 months, you're

going to need money to grow your business.

Then depending on the type of product, and like you said, it's

going to vary between each industry.

What I would try to aim for in eCommerce is at least have a more than 65 70

percent gross margin to begin with.

And when I say gross margin, I'm only talking about net

revenue, less cost of goods sold.

Right,

Leandro D'Elias: I'm not talking about how much money you're spending on advertising,

on payment processing fees, on commissions, on any other valuable costs.

Gross margin is just net revenue less cost of goods sold.

And then at least try to aim for a great net profit margin would be 20,

30% but knowing that at the beginning, you're going to grow, you're going

to want to grow your business.

I would say, try to 5, 10 percent so that at least you're making some money

and then reinvest everything into.

Growing your business.

How do you, I'm just thinking here as you're talking if

I was starting an eCommerce business today, which ironically I'm just

about to launch one but I appreciate I'm launching my next eCommerce

business from a very different place.

I already have staff, I have warehouses, do you know what I mean, we've got

a great team I appreciate, I'm not in a kitchen working a side hustle

here trying to figure out what's

Leandro D'Elias: Let me know if you need a CFO.

Yeah I will we've got a very good one, but I, if

that changes, I'll let you know.

But with someone who is starting out, I guess one of the big things

to think about, and maybe you can talk to this a little bit, how do I

know when I can pay myself, right?

How do I know when I can actually take money out of this?

Leandro D'Elias: To address that, what I would say is don't expect

to pay yourself 50k a month because you're starting an eCommerce company.

You're not starting at a Coca Cola company.

I know that you're going to be the CEO and that's a great name to, to say out there.

Like I'm the CEO of this company which is great.

And I'm pretty sure that if we, with a good.

Product, you're going to achieve the multimillion dollar or pound revenue,

but what I would say there is if you don't have a site work and you're putting

all your eggs in this company, which I wouldn't advise you to do it let's try to

pay yourself whatever you need to live.

Because this is going to be your child and you want your child to be, to succeed.

And expect at the beginning to put a bit more effort, money wise, to

your child instead of yourself.

So I would say, yes, you want to get paid a lot of money.

Because this is your company and you're the CEO, but going back

to what we took at the beginning, the main thing that you need to

worry first is about profitability.

If that means that you don't get paid, then you don't, you shouldn't get paid.

Why?

Because your main goal should be profitability.

Then we can talk about your salary.

And that's probably one of the main issues that I find with CEOs.

They get paid.

I have a bunch of clients that probably are making a couple of

million dollars yearly revenue.

They're not profitable, but that they get paid 30K a month.

Wow.

Leandro D'Elias: and you're like, I don't understand.

Yeah, of course, everyone wants to get paid that monthly salary, but

that shouldn't be your first goal.

Your first goal should be.

Profitability, then scale the business, and then we can discuss about how

much money you want to get paid.

Because eventually, this is going to be your company.

So if you succeed, it's a ramp up.

Yeah.

Leandro D'Elias: Five years from now, probably you're going to

get paid more than 50k a month.

Yeah.

Leandro D'Elias: But don't do it right now.

Yeah.

There's always

Leandro D'Elias: the business.

there's always an interest in opportunity cost, isn't there,

where money is concerned, I find, that

Leandro D'Elias: Totally.

We understand that if we have, say, a blended ROAS of, I'm going

to say five, because it's just easy math.

I know for every pound I leave, or every dollar I leave in the

business, I'm getting five back.

It's just the way it works.

There's an opportunity cost.

I was talking to this with our team the other day that when we

overspend on something over here, we think it's okay, but we're probably

spending a bit more money over here.

If I took that same money and invested it in new customer acquisition, I

would get, I think I worked out.

We would get an extra 700 new customers a month, which was

an extra 75 grand in revenue.

So it's a big deal.

I think, in terms of, especially when you start out, because it's a

bit like a pension fund, isn't it?

The sooner you start, the more money you make in the long run.

But the sooner you start, the sooner it starts to hurt.

And I think delaying financial gratification now

for the benefit of a future.

Payday.

The sooner you can do that in eCommerce, the better it is and understanding

the opportunity cost of the money.

So if I'm taking 10 grand out of the business that month, but I

only need three grand to live.

It's cool.

I've got an extra seven grand.

I can do whatever I want.

I can put it in the bank account and do whatever I like.

Give it away to charity, use all kinds of things that you can do with that money.

But the reality of it is, there's also an opportunity cost to that money.

So if you're in a thriving, or if you're in a business that's growing

and you can get new customers, new customer acquisition with seven

grand a month, we'll buy you.

A lot of new customers, right?

So if your cost of acquisition is 20 bucks, then, you're starting

to buy 300 odd clients or whatever it's going to be with that money.

So it's one of those where I totally get why people want to pay them large,

pay themselves large sums of money.

But I think as a business owner, there is this real tension, isn't it?

This is real opportunity cost, which you have to be aware of and

understanding what else that money would do if you didn't take it.

Leandro D'Elias: I think that you said the most important word there.

Cost of opportunity.

Usually you don't see that.

It's a theoretical calculation.

Because if I have ten pounds And I put them in this place what people

usually don't know because it's a theoretical calculation is that

how much money am I not losing, I'm avoiding myself of winning.

Yeah.

Leandro D'Elias: yes, if I can pay myself 10 and I only need three,

what's the cost of opportunity of the 7 that I'm overpaying myself?

If I put them on the business and maybe you can get, the thing is, maybe

I can get a better return, personally speaking but, again, going back to the

strategy, is what's your main goal?

Grow the business.

If you're getting a positive return on your company, and that 7 means that

you're going to get 700 customers.

More, that it's going to give you X amount of profit.

There's no reason for you to pay yourself 10, 10 pounds, pay yourself

three and reinvest the other seven.

And I think that's like you said, the cost of opportunity is usually what the

non financial people don't know how to calculate, don't know how to factor that

in whatever calculation they're making.

And usually that's the main goal.

What's the return that I'm getting?

Every penny that I have, reinvested.

That's why you want to understand your blended ROAS, because if your

current KPI is showing you that your ROAS is 6x, whatever money you have,

So if your salary, put it in that,

you totally would.

Geez.

Yeah.

Leandro D'Elias: and whatever money you have, keep spending.

Until when?

Until you see that number going down.

If your ROAS is below five and that's your threshold, stop spending money because

you're not getting the return you need.

But yeah, that's I think that you said it perfectly.

Because of opportunity is what people usually don't know how to calculate.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No it's good.

Let me go.

Maybe swing the pendulum the other way.

So we've talked about people who are starting out paying themselves.

Let's talk about people who are.

Maybe thinking of exiting their business, right?

So the business is, whatever, five years old.

They're turning over, I don't know, let's say, let's, easy maths.

Let's say they, they turn over a million bucks a year online and they make a profit

of 200, 000 a year or something like that.

One of the things that has intrigued me is it's a quote that I've heard

a couple of times recently where business sales are concerned.

And that is a lot of business owners run their accounts.

to reduce taxation rather than to increase value of the business.

Can you speak again, what does it mean and, I guess, what is

your understanding about that if I'm trying to sell the business?

Leandro D'Elias: When you try to reduce taxation, what you do usually is you try

to put as many expenses as you can on the business so that your net profit,

your net income is as low as possible.

Why?

Because with that, you're not going to pay a lot of taxes.

The thing is, if you want to sell the business, and usually in the

eCommerce world we try, we don't use discounted cash flow valuations.

We try to use either an EBITDA multiplier, a revenue multiplier, or any multiplier

that the potential buyer may want.

There are two kinds of strategies.

One is when you own the business, it's a legacy thing.

You're going to run the business forever.

What you want is to optimize.

And that is if I can put something this year to pay less taxes and move, push

them forward for next year, I can do it.

Whereas if you want to sell the business, you want to make sure that

your numbers are as high as possible.

And I'm not saying doing something illegal or weird it's just optimization

tactics that you can use to increase the value of your EBITDA or decrease it.

If you want to sell a business, it's a whole different strategy.

You shouldn't care about taxes because when you want, what you

want to show is high numbers and probably same as taxation.

You don't want to show high numbers just for the sake of it, and maybe

you're doing something weird.

Just to show high numbers, but yeah, definitely there are some things

that you can put in the business.

I don't know, I'm renting a car and maybe I can rent it on my

behalf instead of the business.

There are many things, but I think that it's two different strategies

that can be used depending on you wanting to sell the business or not.

It's a very good point, actually, that the value of

your business, one of the biggest determinators of it is EBITDA, Earnings

Before Interest Depreciation and Tax, or something it stands for, isn't it?

Amortization, I think, is the A.

So your pre tax profits, you're basically your net profit figure,

isn't it, with a few Added calculations for tax and so on and so forth.

The higher you can make that figure, the more valuable your business is.

And in e-commerce, at the moment, we're looking at multiples of, let's say on

average 3, 4, 5, somewhere around there.

So for every dollar you can add to the bottom line in profit gives you $5 maybe.

Yeah, in an extra sort of sales price.

The downside is, of course, you've got to pay tax on that figure, but

the tax you pay is whatever it is for your country, I don't know, 10, 20

Leandro D'Elias: Yeah, and I usually, what I tell the clients is it's a good

problem to have, because if you're paying, if you're paying a lot of taxes, it

means that you're making a lot of money.

Yeah, of course we want to make sure that we can, I wouldn't

say reduce, rather than optimize taxation by changing a few things.

But yeah, that's usually a good a good problem to have because it

means that first you're profitable.

So that check on that box and then it means that probably you're going

to be able to pay yourself more.

So as you see, everything is aligned to what we started talking.

How do we strategize the business?

And most importantly, what's the main goal?

Other than profitability, of course,

Yeah.

Yeah, if you want to sell the business, you need it to be profitable.

If you want to pay yourself, you need the business to be profitable.

So it keeps coming back to this.

You've got to build a profitable business.

And to build the, build a profitable business is you've really got to

get your head around the numbers and don't just look at turnover.

You've got to look at some of the other metrics as well.

And including your blended rowers and understanding those numbers.

Which of course, if you want to know more about the Blended

Roast, check out the Matt Putra episode where he goes through that.

Leandro, thank you man for coming on the show.

I'm aware of time.

So any final thoughts on all of this from, we've talked

about lots of different things.

I'm just curious.

Leandro D'Elias: First of all, thanks again for the invitation.

It was.

Really nice talking to you.

Your podcast is amazing, so I really encourage everyone to come listen to

all of your podcast not just this one.

But start here, start on this one.

It won't get better, but it, they'll be

Leandro D'Elias: But probably the one final thought would be if

you're starting a business or if you want to achieve whatever you

want to achieve, make sure that.

At least that's my way of approaching this is make sure that you have fun

while doing it, because yeah, we're talking about numbers, we're talking

about money but in the end, if you're not having fun it doesn't make sense.

Yes, I want to start my own company, I want to sell a lot of things, but if I'm

not having fun, then what's the point?

exactly.

Very good.

That's a mic drop moment.

I'll drop my pen because my mic's, I'm not, it's too expensive.

Leandro, thanks for coming on the show, man.

Listen, if people want to connect with you, if they want to find out more about

you, about Matt, about Eightx, about all the stuff that you guys are doing.

What's the best way to do that?

Leandro D'Elias: You can find us through our website, that is aidx.

co, you can find me on LinkedIn, look for my name on LinkedIn and you'll find me.

Funny.

Leandro D'Elias: Sorry,

there we go.

Leandro D'Elias: You're going to look for my LinkedIn name and you'll

find me there and Eightx website.

Awesome.

We will, of course, link to Leandro's information in the podcast show

notes as well, so do check those out.

Follow those links.

You can find them all at eCommercePodcast.

net.

We will link to Eightx, we will link to Leandro's LinkedIn stuff, and we'll

even LinkedIn, we'll even LinkedIn, we'll even link to Matt's episode

as well, so you get all of those.

in one go because that's just how kind we are and of course I'm assuming

that we actually remember to do this so hopefully the production team

are as good as I believe them to be and we get that all sorted out

but there are all the links there.

Andrew thanks for coming on the show super grateful thanks

for joining me from Argentina.

Thoroughly enjoyable conversation, man.

Really appreciate it.

Leandro D'Elias: Thanks a lot.

the eCommerce Cohort.

Remember to check out that membership group at ecommercecohort.

com.

I'll see you in there cause we're just in there every month.

Awesome place to be.

And be sure to follow the eCommerce Podcast, wherever you get your

podcasts from, because it is great.

Like Andrew said, it's just such a great show.

Even if I do say so myself, not because of me, I hasten to add,

but because of the amazing guests.

That we have like Matt, like Leandro, like everyone else has coming on this show.

So you're not gonna wanna miss any of them, that's for sure.

And in case no one has told you yet today, let me be the first to tell you.

You are awesome.

Yes, you are created.

Awesome.

It's just a burden you've got to bear.

Leandro has to bear it.

I've gotta bear it.

You've gotta it Barrett as well.

Now, the eCommerce podcast is produced by Aurion Media.

You can find our entire archive of episodes on your favorite podcast app.

The team that makes this show possible is Sadaf Beynon and Tanya Hutsuliak.

Theme music was written by Josh Edmundson, and as I mentioned, if you would like to

read the show notes get all the links to transcripts and all that sort of stuff,

head over to the website, ecommerce.

podcast.

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already and all of this stuff just comes straight to your inbox automatically.

It's a brilliant thing.

So that's it from me.

That's it from Leandro.

Thank you so much for joining us.

Have a fantastic week wherever you are in the world.

I will see you next time.

Bye for now.