When I think of leaders who have impact, I think about those who show integrity and their actions are aligned with their values, I think about those who communicate, engage, storytell to bring to life thier vision, I think about those who bring everything back to purpose and put the people they are serving at the heart of their decision making.

Impactful leadership shouldn’t be mistaken for loud leadership, it’s not about being super confident, turning up with the jazz hands, putting themselves at the centre of the story.

In today’s episode I interview Kevin McNamara, an NHS chief executive, who in my opinion typifies all the qualities of an impactful leader. I had to twist his arm to come on the podcast because he didn’t want the story to be about him. But of course that’s absolutely why we need to hear what he has to say.

It's another varied discussion, where we cover:

• creating space to focus on the future when dealing with here and now pressures
• navigating difficult decisions
• becoming an accidental CEO and how his daughter was instrumental in challenging him to take on the role
• the changing nature of relationships with colleagues when internally promoted
• how an earlier career in communications helped that transition into a broader strategic role
• knowing when it's the right time to move from a role or organisation
• how to approach starting a new role
• leaving well
• instilling self-belief in the teams and people around you
• leading through a pandemic and other crisis points in the NHS
• dealing with the pressures of the role
• creating the right headspace and conditions to show up well in the role and dealing with imposter syndrome
• the importance of networks and the support they can provide
• advice for aspiring CEOs

Resources and helpful links

If you want to transform your leadership impact book a free consultation call with me

About leaders with impact

Want to know the secret of great leaders? In Leaders with impact we'll be exploring what makes an impactful leader; sharing stories of success and strategies that set them apart.

If you are ambitious for your organisation but are struggling to identify what you can do differently as a leader to deliver the right improvements, then hit subscribe to learn how you can get clear on your strategy, implement some self-leadership and connect with those you serve.

New episodes are released every fortnight.

Get in touch

If you enjoyed the episode please leave a review on Apple podcasts (or your app of choice) and let me know what you thought on LinkedIn or instagram.

I’ll be back with the next episode in two weeks so in the meantime remember to sign up to my newsletter to get notified of new episodes, guest appearances and further insights on how to lead with impact.

Lee Griffith: 00:00:02

When I think of leaders who have impact, think

Lee Griffith: 00:00:05

about those who show integrity and their actions are aligned

Lee Griffith: 00:00:08

with their values. I think about those who communicate engage

Lee Griffith: 00:00:13

storyteller to bring to life, their vision. I think that those

Lee Griffith: 00:00:17

who bring everything back to purpose and put the people

Lee Griffith: 00:00:19

they're serving at the heart of decision when it came. Impactful

Lee Griffith: 00:00:23

leadership she'd be mistaken for loud leadership is not about

Lee Griffith: 00:00:27

being super confident turning up with a jazz hands putting

Lee Griffith: 00:00:29

themselves at the center of the story. I'm Lee Griffith,

Lee Griffith: 00:00:33

communication strategies executive coach and all around

Lee Griffith: 00:00:36

champion of leaders who shun the old school stereotypes. I'm here

Lee Griffith: 00:00:40

to help you get clear on your strategy, implement some self

Lee Griffith: 00:00:42

leadership and connect with those who serve through your

Lee Griffith: 00:00:45

communications so that you can deliver improved organizational

Lee Griffith: 00:00:48

performance, engagement and reputation. Sign up to my

Lee Griffith: 00:00:51

newsletter to receive even more useful insights into how to be

Lee Griffith: 00:00:54

an impactful leader. You can also find out how I can support

Lee Griffith: 00:00:57

your organization to better connect with the people it

Lee Griffith: 00:00:59

serves. Visit sundayskies.com to find out more. In today's

Lee Griffith: 00:01:03

episode, I interview Kevin McNamara an NHS chief executive

Lee Griffith: 00:01:07

who in my opinion typifies all the qualities of an impactful

Lee Griffith: 00:01:11

leader, I had to twist his arm to come on the podcast because

Lee Griffith: 00:01:14

he didn't want the story to be about him. But of course, that's

Lee Griffith: 00:01:16

absolutely why we need to hear what he has to say. We talk

Lee Griffith: 00:01:20

about mindset dealing with transitions and challenges and

Lee Griffith: 00:01:22

the importance of a strong support network amongst many

Lee Griffith: 00:01:25

other topics. Enjoy.

Lee Griffith: 00:01:33

So I'm delighted to welcome Kevin McNamara, whose chief

Lee Griffith: 00:01:37

executive currently at Great Western hospitals. Thank you so

Lee Griffith: 00:01:41

much for joining us on the leaders of impact podcast,

Lee Griffith: 00:01:43

Kevin,

Unknown: 00:01:44

thanks, I really, really appreciate it.

Lee Griffith: 00:01:46

So I start every episode with a question to

Lee Griffith: 00:01:50

explore what impactful leadership looks like. So I will

Lee Griffith: 00:01:54

ask you, what does impactful leadership mean to you?

Unknown: 00:01:59

A really good question. When I think about the

Unknown: 00:02:03

difference that a good leader can make, to an organization to

Unknown: 00:02:07

a local community, for me is all about what the future can look

Unknown: 00:02:11

like. There's actually good management is about the here.

Unknown: 00:02:13

And now that is about just managing the status quo. The

Unknown: 00:02:16

transactional elements of an impactful leader is is about how

Unknown: 00:02:20

we manage the future, how are we going to step into the future in

Unknown: 00:02:23

the sense of optimism, a sense of unity as a team and a sense

Unknown: 00:02:28

of curiosity about the sorts of questions we need to ask

Unknown: 00:02:31

ourselves that mean that we were going to be best place to face

Unknown: 00:02:34

some of those challenges? So impactful leadership is about

Unknown: 00:02:36

that looking into the future rather than what somebody knows,

Unknown: 00:02:39

to death?

Lee Griffith: 00:02:40

Yeah, I mean, like that sense of, there's often a

Lee Griffith: 00:02:44

confusion isn't in between leadership and management, and

Lee Griffith: 00:02:47

you framed it well, in terms of you're managing in the here and

Lee Griffith: 00:02:50

now but you're leading into future. So I like that

Lee Griffith: 00:02:53

distinction is one

Unknown: 00:02:54

of the things that's a very big challenge in the NHS,

Unknown: 00:02:57

because often you're having some firefight issues that that are

Unknown: 00:03:02

today, you know, ambulance, queuing, lack of beds, workforce

Unknown: 00:03:06

challenges, it's actually how do you create space then as a

Unknown: 00:03:09

leader, for yourself or for your team to try to, to give time to

Unknown: 00:03:13

pause, reflect, think about what's to come rather than the

Unknown: 00:03:17

here and now. It's, it's one of the biggest tensions when I

Unknown: 00:03:19

speak to other people in similar roles that they find with our

Unknown: 00:03:22

job is the focus is so much on on what's happening today,

Unknown: 00:03:26

rather than what might be like tomorrow, I think it's one of

Unknown: 00:03:29

the big the big challenges, particularly for people that

Unknown: 00:03:32

work in the public sector. And because there isn't much room at

Unknown: 00:03:35

the moment to breathe and think about a different future.

Lee Griffith: 00:03:39

I'm definitely going to come back around to

Lee Griffith: 00:03:41

this because I think it's an important thing to explore. But

Lee Griffith: 00:03:44

I want to go right back to the beginning. And to understand a

Lee Griffith: 00:03:48

little bit about what shaped you as the person that you are

Lee Griffith: 00:03:51

today. And I suppose how that might have influenced your

Lee Griffith: 00:03:55

leadership approach.

Unknown: 00:03:56

So always comes back to different people. I've had the

Unknown: 00:04:00

privilege of working in the NHS now for around 20 years, over 20

Unknown: 00:04:04

years. And the NHS is such an inspirational place to work you

Unknown: 00:04:10

see this country at its absolute best. That's not to say that the

Unknown: 00:04:14

NHS doesn't have huge amounts of challenges and, and things like

Unknown: 00:04:19

that. But to be surrounded by people that really want to come

Unknown: 00:04:23

to work, to try their best to serve their community. I think

Unknown: 00:04:26

it's really important. One of the things that has really stuck

Unknown: 00:04:30

with me was I had the opportunity to after university

Unknown: 00:04:33

to go on a scholarship to America that was supported by

Unknown: 00:04:37

the Rotary Club. And there was a mantra that they use there that

Unknown: 00:04:41

really stuck with meanings got service above self. And I

Unknown: 00:04:45

remember when I was dropped off at the airport by the family

Unknown: 00:04:47

that was hosting me. And I said when I'm in a position I'd like

Unknown: 00:04:51

to sort of pay back what I've been able to do. This is not

Unknown: 00:04:54

about money as a matter of time. You can give them this and

Unknown: 00:04:56

always respect service above self that really stuck with me I

Unknown: 00:05:00

wasn't really you know, I was young, impressionable, but it's

Unknown: 00:05:03

something that I've always come back to in my career choices, my

Unknown: 00:05:06

leadership choices. And if I'm in a situation where I'm

Unknown: 00:05:10

thinking, Okay, I'm making a decision, is this about me? Or

Unknown: 00:05:12

is this about the organization? Is this about me? Or is it about

Unknown: 00:05:15

the community? And sometimes that's helped me navigate

Unknown: 00:05:18

through some of those difficult choices where I think, Oh, hang

Unknown: 00:05:20

on a second. No, this is about me, it's therefore the horrible

Unknown: 00:05:23

decision to take. So I need to, I need to change my thinking

Unknown: 00:05:26

about it. So that was a really formative experience for me, and

Unknown: 00:05:31

working with some, some leaders that are a been inspiration,

Unknown: 00:05:36

inspiration on working with leaders that have been less than

Unknown: 00:05:39

inspirational because I think you can learn as much from those

Unknown: 00:05:41

people as you can from inspirational people. The

Unknown: 00:05:44

challenge there, you have to be careful that you don't just try

Unknown: 00:05:46

and turn yourself into a reverse copy of somebody. So which bits

Unknown: 00:05:50

are you going to take away think, right? I don't want to

Unknown: 00:05:52

operate like that. I don't want to be a reverse copy. I want to

Unknown: 00:05:55

be my own person that so I think I've always been somebody that

Unknown: 00:05:58

has a degree of imposter syndrome that you know, to

Unknown: 00:06:01

manage, but that has healthy elements who because it makes

Unknown: 00:06:04

you question, your approach makes you think about wanting to

Unknown: 00:06:07

do things differently next time ruinous in this situation? It

Unknown: 00:06:11

also makes you think, actually, you hold these positions, and

Unknown: 00:06:14

you should hold them very, very carefully, you know, and very

Unknown: 00:06:17

respectfully. So for me, it's it hasn't been about John sands, I

Unknown: 00:06:21

never had an ambition to be a chief executive in the in the

Unknown: 00:06:23

NHS, it happened accidentally. And so one of the things that

Unknown: 00:06:27

I've always tried to do is just recognize that just say yes to

Unknown: 00:06:30

opportunities that come up. And those opportunities often aren't

Unknown: 00:06:33

bow tied and look really neat and fun and enjoyable. Often the

Unknown: 00:06:38

best opportunities in development terms have been the

Unknown: 00:06:40

things that have looked for the like the hardest, most

Unknown: 00:06:43

challenging, and sometimes delicious things that I've had

Unknown: 00:06:46

to get involved with, but they taught me far more by myself and

Unknown: 00:06:50

some of the sort of obvious things that you might want to

Unknown: 00:06:52

pursue in your in your career path.

Lee Griffith: 00:06:56

So you see yourself as an accidental CEO,

Lee Griffith: 00:06:59

how did the accident happen?

Unknown: 00:07:02

As I say, it was never part of the ambition. So

Unknown: 00:07:05

whenever people you said, you've got a desire to be chief exec, I

Unknown: 00:07:08

said, No, it's It's not where I see myself going. Ever. I've

Unknown: 00:07:13

never had a career plans have been really honestly, whenever

Unknown: 00:07:15

anybody asked me for a career advice, I say, I think I'm the

Unknown: 00:07:18

worst person to ask for career advice. I have never had a

Unknown: 00:07:20

career plan, but in a way I think actually served me well at

Unknown: 00:07:23

times when not knowing what to do is meant that I've been open

Unknown: 00:07:27

to different opportunities, different challenges and things

Unknown: 00:07:31

like that. I think sometimes, if you're too prescriptive about

Unknown: 00:07:34

where you see yourself, at what level by what age, I think it

Unknown: 00:07:38

can close off opportunities and closed off doorways that

Unknown: 00:07:42

otherwise I could take you in a different path. also been really

Unknown: 00:07:46

clear, in my own mind that progress isn't always linear is

Unknown: 00:07:51

always upwards, either. So some of the choices I've made in

Unknown: 00:07:54

career terms where I've taken sorts of side steps or steps

Unknown: 00:07:57

down. And I've actually been the things that have helped me

Unknown: 00:07:59

accelerate further aide says, my skill set. And so back in 2018,

Unknown: 00:08:06

the previous chief exec went off on sick leave, and I was asked

Unknown: 00:08:10

to step in, at short notice. And that lasted for a period. And

Unknown: 00:08:14

actually that period of almost eight months. And in that time,

Unknown: 00:08:17

I was convinced for the first six months, I was convinced I

Unknown: 00:08:20

wasn't going to apply for the substantive role, and actually

Unknown: 00:08:23

was a conversation with my eldest that challenged my sort

Unknown: 00:08:26

of thinking around the Christmas time. And I thought, actually,

Unknown: 00:08:29

what I don't want to do is regret not my hat in the ring

Unknown: 00:08:31

and thinking actually could have done it. And and so that's what

Unknown: 00:08:34

I did. And then my job was was formally announced on the day we

Unknown: 00:08:39

started having shut down services for COVID. So it was

Unknown: 00:08:42

not the time and I'd experienced there was no sort of sense of

Unknown: 00:08:45

celebration or anything else like that, because it was never

Unknown: 00:08:48

part of the plan. It was just felt like something that I

Unknown: 00:08:51

needed to do for a very specific set of circumstances at that

Unknown: 00:08:54

time, if that makes sense. It does.

Lee Griffith: 00:08:57

And what did your eldest say to you?

Unknown: 00:09:00

Well, this hospital where I work where my kids were

Unknown: 00:09:03

born, so for me, this has been more than a job. It's absolutely

Unknown: 00:09:07

been a real sense of community, a real sense of family. I've got

Unknown: 00:09:10

a deep pride of work here. And it's the I genuinely feel that

Unknown: 00:09:13

pride every day I walk through the doors. Every day, I make

Unknown: 00:09:16

sure once a day I walk past the route, the place where my my

Unknown: 00:09:21

kids were born. Because I think that's a great connection just

Unknown: 00:09:24

reminds you what this work in the NHS, it is a life and death

Unknown: 00:09:30

organization. And so you get the privilege of being able to walk

Unknown: 00:09:33

past the maternity unit and see new dads new moms carrying their

Unknown: 00:09:37

newborns out and that sense of excitement and wonder that

Unknown: 00:09:39

you've been that we've paid a party that then of course, you

Unknown: 00:09:41

see people that are walking into the car park in tears because

Unknown: 00:09:45

they've just said goodbye to their, you know, their most

Unknown: 00:09:47

precious family member in the world. And so that's a real

Unknown: 00:09:51

privilege to to do that. And one daughter challenged me about my

Unknown: 00:09:55

thinking around why would I not want to change and she she said

Unknown: 00:09:59

yeah, I I always said, I'd say you sort of make yourself

Unknown: 00:10:02

uncomfortable by yourself and situations, maybe she might not

Unknown: 00:10:04

succeed and things like that, I'd say is that perfect bit of

Unknown: 00:10:08

parenting where your words come back to haunt you? And then you

Unknown: 00:10:10

have to do things that you've you tell your kids to do? And it

Unknown: 00:10:13

made me think actually, what? How would I feel? How would you

Unknown: 00:10:17

feel if somebody got the job, you felt like you just didn't

Unknown: 00:10:20

try and affect you, I don't want to be in that position, I don't

Unknown: 00:10:23

want to have that regress. So that's what changed my I think

Unknown: 00:10:28

it was over Christmas period. So it was a great opportunity just

Unknown: 00:10:30

to sit and reflect. And I mentioned earlier the importance

Unknown: 00:10:33

of reflection in the leadership role. However, you can carve out

Unknown: 00:10:37

time to provide your thinking to sort of ask yourself the

Unknown: 00:10:42

uncomfortable questions, and then not get caught up in the

Unknown: 00:10:45

answers that sort of get wrapped around a really busy day where

Unknown: 00:10:49

you've got free time to really just think about, am I giving

Unknown: 00:10:53

the answer? Because it's the easy comfortable selection? Am I

Unknown: 00:10:56

giving you the right answer? That is the right thing for for

Unknown: 00:11:00

the right thing for the organization. And so, so yeah,

Unknown: 00:11:04

so she's been very good at that my kids have been a feature of

Unknown: 00:11:07

this hospital, coming in on Christmas Eve, coming to our

Unknown: 00:11:11

family festivals that we hold, and things like that. So her

Unknown: 00:11:16

advice was a really important part of my thinking. And

Unknown: 00:11:20

actually, I'm going to be moving to a new trust in the new year.

Unknown: 00:11:24

And thinking, I asked them for their opinion about whether I

Unknown: 00:11:28

should go for it. Because I think these sorts of jobs, they

Unknown: 00:11:30

take a lot out of you they take a lot out of the family as well.

Unknown: 00:11:33

So it's important that their voices heard. And yeah, they've

Unknown: 00:11:36

given me a very good career counselor along the way, and

Lee Griffith: 00:11:40

love that. Maybe she's a careers advisor in

Lee Griffith: 00:11:43

waiting. Very good. I want to I want to touch briefly, I suppose

Lee Griffith: 00:11:52

on your progression, is that the right word in your organization,

Lee Griffith: 00:11:57

because you've been there a long while, as you've said, you've

Lee Griffith: 00:12:00

you've stepped into the opportunity to become Chief

Lee Griffith: 00:12:03

Exec. But you'd held a number of roles in that organization

Lee Griffith: 00:12:06

before then. And I'm interested in how you handled those

Lee Griffith: 00:12:11

transitions each time and those promotions because I think,

Lee Griffith: 00:12:15

often when you talk or I talk with people who have had

Lee Griffith: 00:12:20

internal moves, one of those difficulties can be navigating

Lee Griffith: 00:12:25

the changing nature of the relationships. So people who are

Lee Griffith: 00:12:28

your peers, suddenly might be reporting into you people who

Lee Griffith: 00:12:32

were maybe hierarchically more senior, now become your peers.

Lee Griffith: 00:12:36

So all of that shift and change. What have you learned in your

Lee Griffith: 00:12:39

own transitions as you've moved through your organization? Yes,

Unknown: 00:12:43

I've been in this trust now 14 years, and that has many

Unknown: 00:12:46

positives, it also has some drawbacks, because as you say,

Unknown: 00:12:49

there is there's baggage you carry from previous roles. Some

Unknown: 00:12:52

of the corporate memory you carry is really useful in

Unknown: 00:12:54

decision making. But you have to be careful that corporate memory

Unknown: 00:12:58

doesn't become a sort of its own sort of anchor drag holding the

Unknown: 00:13:02

organization back. Well, the reason it is like it is today is

Unknown: 00:13:05

because six years ago, we did this and therefore it can never

Unknown: 00:13:08

be anything different in the future. So I think that's

Unknown: 00:13:11

something can particularly live to, it's one of the reasons they

Unknown: 00:13:15

weren't choosing to her whilst I still love this job and love

Unknown: 00:13:19

this organization, to move to a new trust, because I recognize

Unknown: 00:13:23

that actually, if leaders don't change, organizations don't

Unknown: 00:13:26

change. So I don't want the organization to commute to, to

Unknown: 00:13:30

continue to grow and thrive. And so each opportunity in all of in

Unknown: 00:13:35

all of these transitions has has been a more work rather than a

Unknown: 00:13:41

genuine, this is a great opportunity. Here's a you know,

Unknown: 00:13:44

apply for this job after the chief exec job. And so that

Unknown: 00:13:48

willingness to say yes, and so trying to test the limits of

Unknown: 00:13:51

your skill set. And also to find that sweet spot between what you

Unknown: 00:13:55

think you're good at and what you think you enjoy. I think

Unknown: 00:13:58

that's where you start to get into a groove in a job. And I

Unknown: 00:14:02

think really identifying in those early stages of each new

Unknown: 00:14:05

job, what two or three things you're going to go after that

Unknown: 00:14:08

will signal either a change in intense change in direction or

Unknown: 00:14:13

real impact. I think it's really, really important. So

Unknown: 00:14:16

people often talk about that 100 day plan. And whilst I wouldn't

Unknown: 00:14:20

be prescriptive around that, I think being really thoughtful

Unknown: 00:14:23

about what it is you want to go into to be able to do it but

Unknown: 00:14:26

don't over promise, what you think you're able to deliver

Unknown: 00:14:30

really thoughtful about those. Be realistic about the

Unknown: 00:14:34

challenges that you go into that you're going to face. I think

Unknown: 00:14:38

it's interesting, each transition into a role, the

Unknown: 00:14:41

importance of energy and enthusiasm, I think in building

Unknown: 00:14:45

that trust in an organization because I often use the analogy

Unknown: 00:14:49

in these jobs. You We Are you like a pilot on a plane going

Unknown: 00:14:53

through turbulence. And so that really calm approach is needed.

Unknown: 00:14:57

And I say that's somebody that's an uncomfortable fly and what

Unknown: 00:15:00

It's sort of flight where a stewards let out a slight screen

Unknown: 00:15:04

when it went through turbulence. And I thought I was convinced

Unknown: 00:15:07

the plane was going to go down. And, and it may, actually those

Unknown: 00:15:10

times in organizations, you know, things like COVID, where

Unknown: 00:15:13

you can get into sort of panic mode, what's the ripple effect

Unknown: 00:15:17

in the organization deep into the organization. So it's an

Unknown: 00:15:20

analogy that I come back to, because I think it is relevant

Unknown: 00:15:22

to the types of jobs that we do. But it takes a while for people

Unknown: 00:15:27

to see you differently in your new role, you have to just

Unknown: 00:15:29

recognize and accept that some people will get there quicker,

Unknown: 00:15:32

some people never get there. And I'm sure in my own organization,

Unknown: 00:15:35

there'll be people that were sort of randomly a job or two

Unknown: 00:15:39

ago, when you just have to be accepting uncomfortable that I

Unknown: 00:15:42

don't think you need to try to convince people or win people

Unknown: 00:15:45

over in that sense, I think you can only do do, you can only win

Unknown: 00:15:49

people over by really listening actively in the organization,

Unknown: 00:15:53

staying connected, understanding issues that people are facing,

Unknown: 00:15:57

and trying to work through them in a very sort of mindful way.

Unknown: 00:16:03

So that when you leave the job, hopefully, the 101 problems you

Unknown: 00:16:07

inherited, you're leaving us they're different 101 problems,

Unknown: 00:16:11

you know, you'll never move, these jobs are never complete,

Unknown: 00:16:13

they're never finished. But you'll move some of those things

Unknown: 00:16:15

on that have been intractable challenges in the in the

Unknown: 00:16:18

organization. And that's what we're trying to do. And one of

Unknown: 00:16:21

the biggest things that we that I sort of focused on in my early

Unknown: 00:16:25

days into this role in transitioning because you

Unknown: 00:16:28

stepped into a role, particularly in an acting

Unknown: 00:16:31

scenario, as you say, you're all of a sudden you're responsible

Unknown: 00:16:35

for your peers, but you're also conscious that, you know, in a

Unknown: 00:16:37

month's time, you might be back then and amongst your peers.

Unknown: 00:16:40

What's your role in that. So really thinking about how you

Unknown: 00:16:42

navigate that, I think, is important importance of having a

Unknown: 00:16:45

coach to help you sort of unpack some of those sorts of those

Unknown: 00:16:49

sorts of challenges. But also thinking what is your job in an

Unknown: 00:16:53

acting capacity is your job just to keep the lights on doors open

Unknown: 00:16:56

for the next six months, while some substantive arrangement

Unknown: 00:16:59

comes in? Or do you actually want to use that time to try to

Unknown: 00:17:02

move the organization up. And one of the big things that I was

Unknown: 00:17:05

keen to focus on when I was acting up was around town

Unknown: 00:17:09

culture and behavior in the organization of people and

Unknown: 00:17:11

culture agenda, something really, really energizes me I

Unknown: 00:17:14

really enjoy it. And it's something that we need it and

Unknown: 00:17:17

and it was something that the organization was very receptive

Unknown: 00:17:20

to, at that time. And in a way, some of those the ability to do

Unknown: 00:17:26

that in an organization that you knew where there was, there was

Unknown: 00:17:28

a degree of trust already, that was quite helpful at that time.

Unknown: 00:17:31

So as I say, sometimes it's a positive, sometimes it can be a

Unknown: 00:17:34

bit of a drawback. But you do really need to go into

Unknown: 00:17:37

situations and be really conscious of when it is a

Unknown: 00:17:39

drawback. And sometimes you need to declare that and the roots

Unknown: 00:17:42

actually might corporate memory, here's what happened six years

Unknown: 00:17:45

ago, but it's not going to be helpful in how we navigate

Unknown: 00:17:47

forward from this point, I'd say you've got to be really open to

Unknown: 00:17:50

that challenge and challenge yourself about from that space.

Lee Griffith: 00:17:54

And similarly, suppose you've moved from what

Lee Griffith: 00:17:58

would be seen as a specialist role into the more generalist

Lee Griffith: 00:18:03

you need to be all over all parts of the business, what

Lee Griffith: 00:18:06

helped you specifically, I suppose to make that break away

Lee Griffith: 00:18:10

from specialists and to be in the right mindset to be all over

Lee Griffith: 00:18:15

the organization.

Unknown: 00:18:16

It's really interesting because I started my career off

Unknown: 00:18:20

in in comms and corporate affairs type roles. I really

Unknown: 00:18:23

enjoyed the chat I really enjoyed the people I worked

Unknown: 00:18:25

with. And what surprises me is there are not more people coming

Unknown: 00:18:29

from that sector into more generalist leadership roles.

Unknown: 00:18:33

Because if you think about the commons role is at the top

Unknown: 00:18:36

table, it's in the conversations, whether it's

Unknown: 00:18:39

about strategy, the financial sustainability, quality, safety

Unknown: 00:18:43

workforce, all the things that we deal with in the NHS, and

Unknown: 00:18:46

they know their organizations, and they will deal with their

Unknown: 00:18:48

own sort of equivalence. And so you get to hear the whole story.

Unknown: 00:18:52

Not only that, you get to shape the story, as well as the how

Unknown: 00:18:55

that is fed into the organization. How do we show up

Unknown: 00:18:58

when we're talking to stakeholders and things. So I

Unknown: 00:19:00

think it's a really privileged job. It gives you lots of

Unknown: 00:19:03

access. And, and so I'd always, I'd never had a plan to branch

Unknown: 00:19:08

out of cotton's. But I did recognize that it gave you a

Unknown: 00:19:12

perspective, that meant that you could offer some challenge into

Unknown: 00:19:16

different portfolios because you're trying to join the top

Unknown: 00:19:18

the dots up between stories, you can spot inconsistencies with

Unknown: 00:19:22

approach issues of credible organizational credibility and

Unknown: 00:19:25

things like that. And so I see it's always surprised me that

Unknown: 00:19:29

there aren't more, there isn't a clear ladder through that

Unknown: 00:19:32

concrete into more generalist position. So in a way at least

Unknown: 00:19:36

it felt comfortable. It felt comfortable doing that it didn't

Unknown: 00:19:40

feel like a real jolt. Now the first time then you're being

Unknown: 00:19:44

asked to Okay, can you write and develop the trust strategy

Unknown: 00:19:48

rather than just help sort of advice and the trust strategy?

Unknown: 00:19:51

Okay, the accountability now sits with me. I'm not just a

Unknown: 00:19:54

sort of an advisor in this space, the accountability is

Unknown: 00:19:57

different and you do have to adjust to that account. And

Unknown: 00:20:00

let's say. And then of course, when you're in those directs

Unknown: 00:20:02

positions, you'll profile with the board the visibility, the

Unknown: 00:20:06

challenges, does increase. So, so as I've felt comfortable with

Unknown: 00:20:11

the generalist knowledge and skill set, but you have to pay

Unknown: 00:20:14

attention to have that accountability, check that

Unknown: 00:20:16

accountability changes with each role that you take on. We've

Lee Griffith: 00:20:20

been talking a bit about transitions and

Lee Griffith: 00:20:22

transitions internally. And you've, you've touched on the

Lee Griffith: 00:20:25

fact that you're going to be leaving shortly to join a new

Lee Griffith: 00:20:28

organization, and congratulations on that

Lee Griffith: 00:20:31

appointment. I suppose the convenient, easy way would be

Lee Griffith: 00:20:35

for you to stay where you are, because as you said, it's your

Lee Griffith: 00:20:37

local NHS, you've spent many years there, it obviously means

Lee Griffith: 00:20:41

a lot to you in it, how you've described your kind of family

Lee Griffith: 00:20:46

connection with the organization. What were the

Lee Griffith: 00:20:48

signs, I suppose that you needed to, it was time for you to move

Lee Griffith: 00:20:54

on something new?

Unknown: 00:20:55

Really good question. And lots of people have asked me

Unknown: 00:20:57

this question. Over the past couple of months, it's and as I

Unknown: 00:21:01

was leaving, I've probably given six different answers. So

Unknown: 00:21:06

depending on the day of the week, I, I always knew that I

Unknown: 00:21:11

this place meant more to me than a job. And so I never wants to

Unknown: 00:21:15

be in a position where I was leaving the organization unhappy

Unknown: 00:21:20

in the role. And so I'm leaving with a real sense of sadness,

Unknown: 00:21:23

which is not entirely comfortable. But I think it

Unknown: 00:21:28

means that it's the right time, because actually, I still am in

Unknown: 00:21:31

love with this place. I also recognize that the length of

Unknown: 00:21:35

time you spend in these roles and spending in an organization

Unknown: 00:21:38

like this and say 40 is a long time different roles, there are

Unknown: 00:21:41

some things that can turn into wallpaper that you don't notice.

Unknown: 00:21:44

So the importance of surrounding yourself with people that are

Unknown: 00:21:47

new, fresh perspective, that balance of corporate memory and

Unknown: 00:21:50

new ideas, I think is really, really important. And I do want

Unknown: 00:21:54

to be in a position in a year or twos time where I was taking,

Unknown: 00:21:59

effectively taking value from the organization holding it back

Unknown: 00:22:02

because I was unable to change, I wasn't able to adapt and

Unknown: 00:22:06

things like that, to genuinely add to that, as much about the

Unknown: 00:22:10

organizational interest is about my personal interest in all of

Unknown: 00:22:15

in all of that. And, and we've been spending a lot of time as a

Unknown: 00:22:19

team around board and team development, it's a really

Unknown: 00:22:22

important thing in these roles to spend time together to think

Unknown: 00:22:25

about how you show up not as a group of individuals, but as as

Unknown: 00:22:28

a team. And through that process, I have, you know, gives

Unknown: 00:22:33

you in my reflection time, I've thought about what, what can I

Unknown: 00:22:38

do to best serve that team. And so there's all of those things

Unknown: 00:22:42

to get all of those things together, may be at the start of

Unknown: 00:22:46

the year, if you've said I'll be leaving by the end of the year.

Unknown: 00:22:48

And I said absolutely not. And then a an opportunity arises.

Unknown: 00:22:53

And it started to it started to generate some uncomfortable

Unknown: 00:22:56

questions in my own mind about well, what does the future hold?

Unknown: 00:22:58

And as somebody who hasn't had that very fixed career plan, I

Unknown: 00:23:02

started to think well, maybe this is that opportunity to

Unknown: 00:23:05

earlier in my career, I would have automatically pursued a now

Unknown: 00:23:09

because of a range of reasons that I risk just being in, in

Unknown: 00:23:13

that sort of comfort zone of familiarity. And in connection

Unknown: 00:23:17

with an organization. I've been in an infant all the time. So

Unknown: 00:23:19

there's a whole range of things in that lever that made me think

Unknown: 00:23:23

okay, if not now When, and I couldn't really articulate the

Unknown: 00:23:27

when clearing the enough in my own mind. And

Lee Griffith: 00:23:29

how are you handling, I suppose that leaving

Lee Griffith: 00:23:33

one place well, and entering another place with the right

Lee Griffith: 00:23:38

mindset and perhaps not the baggage? Yeah, and

Unknown: 00:23:42

that's the I think the importance of taking advice from

Unknown: 00:23:45

people that have done that I think is is key. So I've reached

Unknown: 00:23:48

out to quite a few people have gone through the transition in

Unknown: 00:23:51

the past year or two and understand some of the pitfalls

Unknown: 00:23:54

around all of that work in a notice period, because I didn't

Unknown: 00:23:59

want to just leave the organization, as you say, talk

Unknown: 00:24:02

badly or just sort of see see as well, you know, my future is

Unknown: 00:24:06

elsewhere. And therefore the organization needs to figure the

Unknown: 00:24:09

next stage is I really want to support that internal

Unknown: 00:24:12

transition, the acting up that will come as a result of me

Unknown: 00:24:15

stepping out. So there's an obligation and a sense of duty

Unknown: 00:24:18

there that I think is really important. I also wanted that

Unknown: 00:24:22

time to sort of process the emotion that is attached to that

Unknown: 00:24:25

change as well. Because I think if I'd have tried to cut short

Unknown: 00:24:30

my notice period and tried to jump in too quickly, I think

Unknown: 00:24:33

there would have been some of that emotion tied up in it that

Unknown: 00:24:37

would have would have meant that I that I wouldn't necessarily be

Unknown: 00:24:40

into the new organization wholly focused on the new organization.

Unknown: 00:24:44

So you need to sort of go through I think that that sort

Unknown: 00:24:46

of, oh my say the sort of grieving process, I don't mean

Unknown: 00:24:49

it in that sense, but there is a sort of cycle to just processing

Unknown: 00:24:52

your emotions around it. Get yourself ready for the

Unknown: 00:24:56

opportunity to spend some of this notice period as well too.

Unknown: 00:25:00

you to go to the new organization speak to people

Unknown: 00:25:03

list those questions that you just want to sort of clarify in

Unknown: 00:25:06

your own mind as you step in there so that I'm not stepping

Unknown: 00:25:09

in there on day one, having given no thought to where I

Unknown: 00:25:13

might want to pay more attention to where I want to spend my

Unknown: 00:25:16

time, who I want to meet within my first month or two, because

Unknown: 00:25:21

you know, who you meet with in that initial period sends a

Unknown: 00:25:24

really important signal about what's important to you. And I

Unknown: 00:25:27

wanted to make sure that I'm want to make sure that that is,

Unknown: 00:25:30

that ties to my values, it ties to the things that I see as

Unknown: 00:25:33

being important to the type of leader that I want to be in all

Unknown: 00:25:39

of that. So I'm very fortunate because it's NHS to NHS, I've

Unknown: 00:25:42

got, you know, autonomy and flexibility on this end, to

Unknown: 00:25:46

spend time I'm gonna I'm going to observe, observe interest

Unknown: 00:25:50

board meetings and other things. So I can just sort of see and

Unknown: 00:25:54

start better understand the part that I can play in that team,

Unknown: 00:25:57

because it's not about the chief executive and the part that you

Unknown: 00:26:00

can play in that team and so that the notice periods be it

Unknown: 00:26:03

has been helpful for that. But quite quickly, you also see in

Unknown: 00:26:08

your current role, how the power shifts quite quickly, within 45

Unknown: 00:26:13

minutes of the US being an ageist there was somebody from

Unknown: 00:26:16

another organization ringing up saying, when's the jump going

Unknown: 00:26:18

out, I want to apply. So quite quickly, you have to just

Unknown: 00:26:21

recognize that you are sort of yesterday's person in that

Unknown: 00:26:25

respect. And there will be some things that you can be helpful

Unknown: 00:26:28

to to just die the organization through three months, there are

Unknown: 00:26:31

some things you won't be able to to help on because is wholly

Unknown: 00:26:35

about the future. And there are there will be other people that

Unknown: 00:26:38

pick up the consequences of those decisions. And so being

Unknown: 00:26:41

clear around that, in your own mind, I think is really, really

Unknown: 00:26:44

important. But yeah, you're absolutely right. I couldn't put

Unknown: 00:26:47

it better. I've seen people leave organizations badly. And

Unknown: 00:26:50

it really impacts on the organization impacts on their

Unknown: 00:26:53

the undermines actually the contribution that they're made.

Unknown: 00:26:55

And so I wanted to be really, really thoughtful about that.

Lee Griffith: 00:26:59

Thank you. It's it's an interesting one, when

Lee Griffith: 00:27:03

you say, like, being contacted, so soon after making the

Lee Griffith: 00:27:06

announcement. And I've worked in places previously. And it's

Lee Griffith: 00:27:10

almost been a shock to some people when they've announced

Lee Griffith: 00:27:12

that they're leaving, because they think that they conflict

Lee Griffith: 00:27:17

with the work. There's almost a sense of, oh, they can they can

Lee Griffith: 00:27:21

live without me. They've forgotten me, I feel irrelevant

Lee Griffith: 00:27:25

already.

Unknown: 00:27:26

I think it's, you know, the reality of the of

Unknown: 00:27:30

organizations like this in any sector, I'm sure that in these

Unknown: 00:27:34

positions, you are dispensable. And I think the point at which

Unknown: 00:27:37

you start to think you'll not I think that will read bad

Unknown: 00:27:39

behaviors, bad habits, and it'll impact the organization. You

Unknown: 00:27:44

know, when people give you positive feedback about your

Unknown: 00:27:48

time here, of course, on the one hand, it's very nice. But I do

Unknown: 00:27:53

say to people, I've said this to quite a few people that actually

Unknown: 00:27:57

know you're going to miss the familiarity, you're not going to

Unknown: 00:27:59

miss this sort of unique contribution. So in some

Unknown: 00:28:02

respects, actually, what people are missing is like the old pair

Unknown: 00:28:04

of slippers, you know how I respond to certain things. And

Unknown: 00:28:07

so I think you have to be really, really honest with

Unknown: 00:28:11

yourself that that otherwise I do, I do worry that you can get

Unknown: 00:28:17

sucked into that sort of narrative. And actually, none of

Unknown: 00:28:20

those things are true, that happened, because we've got five

Unknown: 00:28:23

and a half 1000 staff that comes work to do to do their best and

Unknown: 00:28:26

really challenging circumstances. That's why good

Unknown: 00:28:28

things happen. It happens because of a team not because of

Unknown: 00:28:31

an individual. And so I think you recognize you have to

Unknown: 00:28:35

recognize these in these jobs, you can, you can set the tone of

Unknown: 00:28:39

the organization, you can absolutely have a really real

Unknown: 00:28:41

impact on that. But the real success of the organization is

Unknown: 00:28:44

down to unleashing that sort of capability exists right down

Unknown: 00:28:47

into the, into the front line, you also have to accept that

Unknown: 00:28:50

what you can't, you can't lay claim to the successes, you're

Unknown: 00:28:54

absolutely accountable for the failings and some of the things

Unknown: 00:28:58

that don't work, because that's the nature of of being a chief

Unknown: 00:29:00

of staff in the NHS. So I do challenge people generally when

Unknown: 00:29:05

they asked me about leaving and and when they say nice things to

Unknown: 00:29:09

these, it's all motivated it is all the right motivations, but I

Unknown: 00:29:13

do charge a fee arrived. It's about familiarity. It's not

Unknown: 00:29:16

about my unique skill set or anything else like that. Because

Unknown: 00:29:19

I think it's important that people recognize their own

Unknown: 00:29:23

contribution to making improvements because otherwise,

Unknown: 00:29:26

I think you can you can abdicate your own responsibility, your

Unknown: 00:29:30

own capability, actually, in your own self belief. And think

Unknown: 00:29:33

it's about somebody that sits in a corner office that's that's

Unknown: 00:29:36

driving that, I think is a really important thing about how

Unknown: 00:29:38

you instill that self belief in people in these roles. And some

Unknown: 00:29:41

of the best people I've worked for have been people that even

Unknown: 00:29:44

at times when I've thought I'm absolutely at my limit of

Unknown: 00:29:47

capability and I feel like I'm about to drown and I shouldn't

Unknown: 00:29:50

be in this position. They've been the people that have

Unknown: 00:29:52

instilled a huge sense of self belief it just made you just

Unknown: 00:29:55

just go that little bit further and then you get through this I

Unknown: 00:29:57

think I can't believe actually did that and that's that

Unknown: 00:30:00

familiar is the magic when you when you can be, you can work

Unknown: 00:30:03

for somebody like that that can do that.

Lee Griffith: 00:30:05

Can we go a little bit more broad? Again, you've

Lee Griffith: 00:30:09

mentioned a couple of times that you came in the first day

Lee Griffith: 00:30:13

announced a CEO, you had to close down for COVID. So I'm

Lee Griffith: 00:30:16

really interested in what it's been like leading through a

Lee Griffith: 00:30:21

pandemic over the last couple of years. But also, more recently,

Lee Griffith: 00:30:25

there's been a lot of industrial action in the NHS that's been

Lee Griffith: 00:30:28

widely publicized. How have you had to approach or adapt your

Lee Griffith: 00:30:33

approach, I should say, to those types of challenges, and what

Lee Griffith: 00:30:37

have you learned from leading through those crisis points, I

Lee Griffith: 00:30:41

suppose. Yeah, it's

Unknown: 00:30:44

really interesting, that whole period, in a way it

Unknown: 00:30:46

feels like a lifetime ago, and many, many respects, it feels

Unknown: 00:30:49

like yesterday. So it's odd. I think in these roles, you have

Unknown: 00:30:52

an old relationship to what that felt like. One of the things I

Unknown: 00:30:56

tried to cling on to in the early days, because on the one

Unknown: 00:30:59

hand, you know, you have the imposter sort of voice in your

Unknown: 00:31:01

head saying, what do you do? What do you do here? Why do you

Unknown: 00:31:03

think you can do this job. And then the other part of my

Unknown: 00:31:06

internal monologue was actually no one in the NHS, even if

Unknown: 00:31:09

you've got 30 years worth of chiefing, Tech experience has

Unknown: 00:31:11

dealt with a global pandemic before. So every day in this

Unknown: 00:31:15

pandemic is someone's first day on the job, it's a new day for

Unknown: 00:31:18

everybody. Yeah, I actually find quite a lot of comfort in that

Unknown: 00:31:22

because you of course, you can pick up the phone to people that

Unknown: 00:31:25

have got more time under their belt, they will give you a

Unknown: 00:31:30

leadership perspective. But the precise nature of pandemic meant

Unknown: 00:31:33

that you had to look for new and different ways of, of

Unknown: 00:31:36

responding. So in a way, there was comfort at that time, in

Unknown: 00:31:39

knowing that there were other people going through exactly the

Unknown: 00:31:42

same experience. I remember very early on, we had a commanding

Unknown: 00:31:46

control structure as you would expect, because the sort of

Unknown: 00:31:49

national pandemic. And as you start to hear about the

Unknown: 00:31:53

pandemic, there's still part of you, that sort of thinks it

Unknown: 00:31:57

might not happen here, you sort of can convince yourself, or

Unknown: 00:32:00

maybe it's sort of it will all sorts of filth peter out before

Unknown: 00:32:03

it gets to the UK and things. So you can convince yourself and

Unknown: 00:32:06

the closest I ever like I've ever sort of had that relation

Unknown: 00:32:09

to is when somebody tells you about personal grief, and

Unknown: 00:32:11

somebody's going to die. And you can convince yourself for some

Unknown: 00:32:15

reason that the rules don't apply to that person, because

Unknown: 00:32:17

they were so special. And, and all of those things are and

Unknown: 00:32:19

there's a similar sorts of the way your brain works in that

Unknown: 00:32:21

situation. What's the reality dawns on you that this is

Unknown: 00:32:25

different, you are going to have to take some different

Unknown: 00:32:27

decisions. I remember having a conversation with our leadership

Unknown: 00:32:30

team. So not just executive directors and divisional

Unknown: 00:32:32

commissions, and people like that, about the importance of

Unknown: 00:32:35

distributed leadership. So actually, what we're not going

Unknown: 00:32:38

to do in this situation is not to the top of the shop needs

Unknown: 00:32:41

that team for all of the answers because no one's worked through

Unknown: 00:32:44

a pandemic before. Also, we have to recognize that some of the

Unknown: 00:32:47

people around the table today won't be around the table

Unknown: 00:32:49

tomorrow, because COVID was starting to move through ranks

Unknown: 00:32:54

as well. And I think that was helpful to try to empower give

Unknown: 00:32:58

autonomy. And my only source of sort of prerequisite was just

Unknown: 00:33:02

know your decision making make a record of why you took the

Unknown: 00:33:05

decision, record it because you knew even in those early days

Unknown: 00:33:08

that it was going to come to a public inquiry and all of those

Unknown: 00:33:11

so you can and Hindsight is a wonderful thing. And of course,

Unknown: 00:33:14

decisions you would take now from here to there. But I think

Unknown: 00:33:18

that record in a decision making. So those two things for

Unknown: 00:33:20

me were really helpful. They thought that this was the first

Unknown: 00:33:24

day on the job for every chief exec in the NHS. And then the

Unknown: 00:33:28

importance of distributed leadership and sticking to to

Unknown: 00:33:31

that. So there being no adverse consequences for somebody had

Unknown: 00:33:35

made the desert made a decision with the best of intentions with

Unknown: 00:33:40

the information they had available to them that then

Unknown: 00:33:42

recorded and that they could they were willing to sort of

Unknown: 00:33:44

stand up and justify making sure that there's no adverse A week

Unknown: 00:33:48

later, because things were changing so much, you might

Unknown: 00:33:50

change that decision. And so we'll need different approaches.

Unknown: 00:33:53

Some of those tricky times when we thought we might run out of

Unknown: 00:33:56

PPE that was very anxiety inducing. And this is where, you

Unknown: 00:34:00

know, that analogy I use around being the sort of pilot on

Unknown: 00:34:04

airplane going through turbulence, that the importance

Unknown: 00:34:07

of that calm voice coming out of the cockpit being really

Unknown: 00:34:10

important at that time. And so I really tried to pay attention to

Unknown: 00:34:14

that, because the organization absolutely wouldn't have wanted

Unknown: 00:34:18

to see an executive seen will be panicking, around over that. So

Unknown: 00:34:21

that was so that was very odd, a very odd time. I think that's

Unknown: 00:34:25

probably the best word to describe it. We lost some

Unknown: 00:34:28

members of staff during that time. And that was really

Unknown: 00:34:31

difficult for staff really difficult actually, probably,

Unknown: 00:34:35

for the first time you realize how uncomfortable these jobs can

Unknown: 00:34:40

be. When you're speaking to, you know, the wife of a doctor

Unknown: 00:34:44

that's died and, and and all the emotion and that sort of brings

Unknown: 00:34:47

up and and recognize that people are still needing advice and

Unknown: 00:34:51

guidance and Astaire going through all of that. I mean, I

Unknown: 00:34:54

was really I was really fortunate. I didn't get COVID

Unknown: 00:34:56

for the first 18 months of pandemic so I don't know what it

Unknown: 00:34:59

would have been like, and how I would have felt, you know, being

Unknown: 00:35:03

distance and things are nice. Some people had some really

Unknown: 00:35:05

awful experiences of of that. But in some respects the clarity

Unknown: 00:35:10

of the pandemic, that single mission, that single focus it

Unknown: 00:35:13

galvanizes, the staff at work here in a way, nothing ever did

Unknown: 00:35:18

before or since because some of those other less important

Unknown: 00:35:22

things fall by the wayside. Liberate, it can be quite

Unknown: 00:35:25

liberating in that it can be quite energizing. And of course,

Unknown: 00:35:28

you know, the consequences of it are huge, but but it provided a

Unknown: 00:35:32

clarity. And then when you step out to the pandemic, and you are

Unknown: 00:35:35

back into having to focus on the money, you've got industrial

Unknown: 00:35:38

action that's nearly been running for a year now. And the

Unknown: 00:35:41

worry that that will, that even with a settlement that that

Unknown: 00:35:44

might have fundamentally eroded the trust within organizations,

Unknown: 00:35:49

between professionals, between clinicians and managers, and

Unknown: 00:35:52

things like that, that is a different level of complexity.

Unknown: 00:35:54

And in many respects, that it's a trickier job to do now than it

Unknown: 00:35:59

is navigating through those initial stages of the pandemic,

Unknown: 00:36:03

but some of the principles still apply distributed leadership,

Unknown: 00:36:08

the, you know, trying to sort of hold to, to that constancy of

Unknown: 00:36:12

purpose, what is it we're here for? Why are we doing what we're

Unknown: 00:36:15

trying to do? Now, that is harder when there's lots of

Unknown: 00:36:18

other things that you're having to pay attention to as well. But

Unknown: 00:36:22

it's still trying to hold the discipline of some of those

Unknown: 00:36:25

things. And the importance of I've always felt this, and I've

Unknown: 00:36:29

seen it with people I've worked with, then you are only as good

Unknown: 00:36:33

as the people that you work with your audience, because your

Unknown: 00:36:35

direct reports. So really paying attention to a skill set that's

Unknown: 00:36:39

needed through this next phase of complexity, I think is

Unknown: 00:36:42

really, really important in all that, and I'm hugely fortunate,

Unknown: 00:36:48

I've got an incredible team that you can you can rely on. So

Unknown: 00:36:53

you've got to defer and delegate and acknowledge there are people

Unknown: 00:36:56

in the team that will make much better decisions on their

Unknown: 00:36:59

specialist their area based on their experience, and you have

Unknown: 00:37:02

to you've got to, to relinquish some of that sort of that

Unknown: 00:37:06

control. So in many respects me, it's, it's a more challenging

Unknown: 00:37:11

time now in that leadership space. Because the public are

Unknown: 00:37:15

expecting far more from the NHS now than they were during the

Unknown: 00:37:18

pandemic, the support has eroded for a range of reasons, some of

Unknown: 00:37:23

that with frustrations around waiting lists that are growing

Unknown: 00:37:26

and growing, that challenge with staff support as well, with

Unknown: 00:37:30

industrial action, and the financial challenges that are

Unknown: 00:37:33

that have come back really strongly for many, many HS

Unknown: 00:37:37

organizations. That means that you've got to navigate and

Unknown: 00:37:40

you've got to spend many more plates than then we have to set

Unknown: 00:37:45

essentially, in a pandemic, you've bridged

Lee Griffith: 00:37:47

nicely actually into my next question, which was

Lee Griffith: 00:37:50

around the fact that everyone does have a view on the NHS,

Lee Griffith: 00:37:55

because it affects them, everyone's going to come into

Lee Griffith: 00:37:58

contact with the NHS in some way, shape or form at some point

Lee Griffith: 00:38:01

in their life. But it's also heavily regulated, heavily

Lee Griffith: 00:38:05

politicized all of those kinds of things. And that must bring a

Lee Griffith: 00:38:10

lot of responsibility for you as the Accountable officer, I'm

Lee Griffith: 00:38:14

sure, but possibly quite a lot of pressure to so how do you

Lee Griffith: 00:38:19

navigate that?

Unknown: 00:38:20

It's an interesting one, because I've been asked

Unknown: 00:38:22

this a few times, by people that I've been, I've known in the NHS

Unknown: 00:38:28

for a long time, and they call nine different career paths. And

Unknown: 00:38:32

it's not that you don't acknowledge the pressure, you

Unknown: 00:38:34

have to acknowledge it. But I think you have to be careful how

Unknown: 00:38:37

much you let it into your headspace. Because I think it

Unknown: 00:38:41

can lead to paralysis, it can make you think, actually, this

Unknown: 00:38:44

is too big for anyone, anybody to be able to contend with. So

Unknown: 00:38:49

you have to be really careful about how you how you stay live

Unknown: 00:38:52

to it, you stay live to the accountability, the importance

Unknown: 00:38:56

of getting it right for people, but not let that be so

Unknown: 00:39:00

overwhelming that you can't make a decision you are, you're

Unknown: 00:39:05

generating lots of anxiety and things like that. And it's

Unknown: 00:39:08

interestingly because some of the more anxiety inducing parts

Unknown: 00:39:13

of the role have often been things that I think if I was

Unknown: 00:39:16

speak to somebody externally, that's how I wouldn't have

Unknown: 00:39:18

thought that would be the big thing. But now often, the small

Unknown: 00:39:21

things often become the big thing in a job like this often

Unknown: 00:39:24

tells you something about insects I mentioned about the

Unknown: 00:39:26

loss of members of staff during the pandemic. And and of course,

Unknown: 00:39:30

that is a huge, huge thing. But it's interesting because I've

Unknown: 00:39:33

spent more time reflecting about that than some other aspects of

Unknown: 00:39:37

the pandemic, because that feels deeply personal. So I think you

Unknown: 00:39:41

have to be careful about how much you let it into your into

Unknown: 00:39:43

your heads headspace and have a healthy approach to it. You do

Unknown: 00:39:48

have to pay attention to those things that you are that you

Unknown: 00:39:52

really need to be. This is serious. We need to be leaning

Unknown: 00:39:57

into this versus those things that you know And I actually

Unknown: 00:40:00

that is for you, that's for your role, you can manage that. I

Unknown: 00:40:03

feel confident in that. Because it challenges often things

Unknown: 00:40:07

filter up the organization, everything can be presented as

Unknown: 00:40:10

equal priority. And I think, obviously, if everything's

Unknown: 00:40:12

priority, nothing's priority. And not everything is equal

Unknown: 00:40:16

risk, either. The bit I worry about is how do we maintain the

Unknown: 00:40:21

confidence of the public? You know, we exist because people

Unknown: 00:40:26

will continue to want to support the NHS want to pay their taxes,

Unknown: 00:40:29

the NHS, things like that. So I wouldn't like bigger worry is a

Unknown: 00:40:32

sort of an existential on reading bias. How do you

Unknown: 00:40:35

maintain that confidence. And obviously, I can't control that,

Unknown: 00:40:39

beyond the area that I'm responsible for. What I can do

Unknown: 00:40:43

is try to make sure that the voice of the people of Swindon

Unknown: 00:40:47

is in our thinking when we're trying to do things, that when

Unknown: 00:40:50

we're looking at waiting lists, we're not just seeing the fact

Unknown: 00:40:52

that the waiting list has doubled since the start of the

Unknown: 00:40:54

pandemic, we're really thinking about, well, who is on that

Unknown: 00:40:57

waiting list? What does that look like for a child on that

Unknown: 00:41:00

waiting list? What does that look like with somebody with a

Unknown: 00:41:01

learning disability on that Wednesday, so really trying to

Unknown: 00:41:04

get behind the numbers? That can be easier said than done

Unknown: 00:41:08

sometimes. But really trying to hold ourselves to account and

Unknown: 00:41:12

asking ourselves really uncomfortable, challenging

Unknown: 00:41:14

questions about what can we do differently? What could we do

Unknown: 00:41:17

better? If there's people people depend on it. And remember, Lee,

Unknown: 00:41:20

and I know from your background, you've experienced this. But in

Unknown: 00:41:23

an organization like this, the vast majority of people work

Unknown: 00:41:25

here for a very, very long time, the vast majority people this is

Unknown: 00:41:28

now local hospital, the vast majority of people, it's

Unknown: 00:41:31

wherever their kids and their grandkids, their brothers and

Unknown: 00:41:34

sisters will come for treatment. So for many people, it's a very

Unknown: 00:41:37

personal and there's a personal need for this organization to to

Unknown: 00:41:41

be as good as it can be. And for us to respond to those those

Unknown: 00:41:44

sorts of challenges. One of the things that I do draw on that

Unknown: 00:41:47

I've always found helpful thing is, I don't know whether you've

Unknown: 00:41:51

ever come across the authority, presence and impact model. And

Unknown: 00:41:54

it's a framework of just helping you sort of think about things.

Unknown: 00:41:58

And so that has been quite helpful to me over time to give

Unknown: 00:42:02

to try to breed in my own confidence when making

Unknown: 00:42:05

decisions, and making sure that they're aligned to sort of the

Unknown: 00:42:08

values that sit behind all of that. And that's, that's been

Unknown: 00:42:11

quite a helpful tool in sometimes crowding out that

Unknown: 00:42:15

voice in your head that can sort of just get you into a difficult

Unknown: 00:42:19

sort of headspace and not necessarily help the

Unknown: 00:42:22

organization. So that's, that's something I often talk to people

Unknown: 00:42:25

about, and encourage them to look at. Because it can be

Unknown: 00:42:28

really helpful, say, building confidence in that decision

Unknown: 00:42:32

making that you have to do in a job like this.

Lee Griffith: 00:42:35

So you've mentioned a few times the being

Lee Griffith: 00:42:38

in the right, headspace. You've talked a couple of times around

Lee Griffith: 00:42:41

impostor syndrome that you felt throughout your career, I

Lee Griffith: 00:42:45

suppose how else are you creating the right conditions

Lee Griffith: 00:42:49

for you to manage some of that stuff so that you know that

Lee Griffith: 00:42:52

you're not listening to the imposter or whatever else might

Lee Griffith: 00:42:55

be going on? Yeah, it's,

Unknown: 00:42:58

it's hard sometimes. Yeah. I always think actually,

Unknown: 00:43:01

there's no such thing as a normal person is that really,

Unknown: 00:43:03

but you know, I think it's entirely healthy to have that

Unknown: 00:43:06

sort of voice, because I think it does make you question

Unknown: 00:43:09

yourself, and how you can do better do differently. But it's

Unknown: 00:43:12

still a voice that you have to choose when to listen to it and

Unknown: 00:43:15

choose when not to listen to it. So you still have to have some

Unknown: 00:43:18

self control over over that. I think it's often the author

Unknown: 00:43:22

syndrome is a much louder internal monologue for people

Unknown: 00:43:25

that it is a sort of an external projection, so people don't see

Unknown: 00:43:28

what you are thinking, do they in that space? So I think so I

Unknown: 00:43:33

don't see is entirely unhealthy. In that, you can notice the

Unknown: 00:43:37

times in yourself when it comes, you know, and it can be at times

Unknown: 00:43:41

of more acute pressure or tiredness and things like that.

Unknown: 00:43:45

So I think spotting the signals for yourself as to when this is

Unknown: 00:43:48

likely to come and then you'll manage not even not coping

Unknown: 00:43:51

mechanisms, because actually set that signs to sorts of to

Unknown: 00:43:54

problematic, but how do you manage that? How do you manage

Unknown: 00:43:56

that voice? I've invested a lot of time in the sole development

Unknown: 00:44:01

side. So setting aside reflection space, setting aside

Unknown: 00:44:04

reading time to really think about and reading How do other

Unknown: 00:44:07

people manage some of those sorts of things, whether it is

Unknown: 00:44:09

imposter impostor syndrome or something else, I think it's

Unknown: 00:44:11

really important to look for new ways. Because often think sort

Unknown: 00:44:16

of like going to the gym and using the same bit of equipment

Unknown: 00:44:20

every time after a while you plateau, you don't sort of do

Unknown: 00:44:22

that you don't improve. So actually, what's the new bit of

Unknown: 00:44:25

equipment you're going to need to use to give that different

Unknown: 00:44:27

muscle? Like I'm saying that as if I go to the gym every day, I

Unknown: 00:44:29

really don't have your SEC there. But it's the same sort of

Unknown: 00:44:32

thought process where you think you have to look for new ways

Unknown: 00:44:36

continually to manage that the importance of a network of

Unknown: 00:44:41

support. So I've got a fantastic network of people in different

Unknown: 00:44:46

roles in the NHS that I know I can pick up the fight to Allah

Unknown: 00:44:49

drive home from work today, to talk through an issue to get a

Unknown: 00:44:52

perspective to get a common sense check a challenge on you

Unknown: 00:44:55

know, this isn't a big deal all houses and to do that in a way

Unknown: 00:44:59

that's recipt recourse actually made being available to them

Unknown: 00:45:02

when they need that I think it's so important. I used to view

Unknown: 00:45:05

networking through the wrong lens, I used to think it was for

Unknown: 00:45:08

people that wanted to build relationships so they could

Unknown: 00:45:11

further their career or for me, that wasn't what I wanted to do.

Unknown: 00:45:15

Now I see the importance of networking is that support that

Unknown: 00:45:18

work, and that ability to draw on expertise of people that have

Unknown: 00:45:22

been there, done that I've tried it, I've learned the mistakes,

Unknown: 00:45:25

I've got the scars, that you don't just draw on that you've

Unknown: 00:45:27

got to put something into that as well to make sure that you

Unknown: 00:45:30

are contributing to them and their life. And, and I've got

Unknown: 00:45:34

some real privilege to know some of the people that have died in

Unknown: 00:45:38

the network that I can talk to. So those are a couple of really,

Unknown: 00:45:42

really important things. And then the final thing I think is

Unknown: 00:45:45

not everything is not every decision you make, not

Unknown: 00:45:48

everything that you do is life and death. And our course we

Unknown: 00:45:51

work in an organization that that is that sees those sort of

Unknown: 00:45:55

ends of the start and end of life. But many decisions that we

Unknown: 00:46:00

you take won't have those sorts of consequences, and drawing on

Unknown: 00:46:05

the confidence that your experience has given you in your

Unknown: 00:46:08

personal and professional life. So thinking about those very

Unknown: 00:46:11

difficult experiences that you've had in your personal life

Unknown: 00:46:13

and thinking, Well, I got through those, I can deal I can

Unknown: 00:46:17

deal with that. This issue I'm dealing with today is less than

Unknown: 00:46:20

that. In terms of consequence. If I dealt with that, I can deal

Unknown: 00:46:24

with this. And having that as a very quick thought process.

Unknown: 00:46:27

Sometimes I was thinking, okay, which way do I go? What do I do

Unknown: 00:46:30

has been quite a helpful thought process to be at some of those,

Unknown: 00:46:34

those more challenging times. And there will be times when,

Unknown: 00:46:39

where it can be helpful to be a bit more open with people about

Unknown: 00:46:42

what you're thinking, why you're feeling it, and so that people

Unknown: 00:46:46

recognize that these aren't straightforward decisions, they

Unknown: 00:46:50

are decisions that sort of come weigh on you. This is how you

Unknown: 00:46:53

how you manage it. So you've got to have a healthy respect to the

Unknown: 00:46:57

otherwise, if you let the doors open too much he'll come

Unknown: 00:47:00

flooding in. And I think that's where you can you could cause

Unknown: 00:47:02

yourself some some harm ultimately. Yeah,

Lee Griffith: 00:47:06

I think there's some really practical advice and

Lee Griffith: 00:47:09

steps there that would that anyone can take from really and

Lee Griffith: 00:47:12

build their own little toolkit as it were. So my final question

Lee Griffith: 00:47:17

is one that I asked everyone as well. And it's what's the one

Lee Griffith: 00:47:21

piece of advice you would give to someone who is aspiring to

Lee Griffith: 00:47:26

being CEO?

Unknown: 00:47:28

Only one only? Only? Well, yeah, that's a really

Unknown: 00:47:31

tricky one. I'm a big believer in the people, you spend time

Unknown: 00:47:35

with other people, you'd be cut off. And that's, I think that's

Unknown: 00:47:37

a lesson for life. You know, if you want to be happy, surround

Unknown: 00:47:39

yourself by happy people, if you want to be ambitious, surround

Unknown: 00:47:42

yourself by ambitious people. I think that applies in the

Unknown: 00:47:45

workplace as well. And I mentioned that you that you're

Unknown: 00:47:48

only as good as your direct reports and the people around

Unknown: 00:47:51

you. So think carefully about the people you surround yourself

Unknown: 00:47:54

with in a workplace, because they will have a big bearing on

Unknown: 00:47:59

professional success, but also your mental ebook in life.

Lee Griffith: 00:48:02

Fantastic. Now, I shouldn't do this, because it

Lee Griffith: 00:48:06

was one piece of advice. But you've triggered a follow up

Lee Griffith: 00:48:08

question, if I may. Which is I completely agree with you about

Lee Griffith: 00:48:14

being conscious and intentional in who you surround yourself

Lee Griffith: 00:48:18

wave. But there's a balance isn't there about making sure

Lee Griffith: 00:48:21

you don't create a an echo chamber around you. So I'm so

Lee Griffith: 00:48:24

I'm interested how you make sure that you get that diversity in

Lee Griffith: 00:48:29

the support that you have to make sure and how you test that,

Lee Griffith: 00:48:34

I suppose. Yeah,

Unknown: 00:48:35

it's a really good challenge Lee and, and so I

Unknown: 00:48:39

think you can still have people that challenging, but happy. So

Unknown: 00:48:44

I think you can still have people that are willing to ask

Unknown: 00:48:46

the uncomfortable questions, but positive. And so some of the

Unknown: 00:48:49

characteristics, I think of that person I think can be

Unknown: 00:48:53

consistent. But you're absolutely right, that diversity

Unknown: 00:48:56

of thought be being important. I always used to think actually

Unknown: 00:49:00

one of the real skills in a job is to say yes, and I mean, yes

Unknown: 00:49:03

to new opportunity. Yes, a new challenge is not in a Yes, Boss,

Unknown: 00:49:07

you are, you're correct. So offering up an environment,

Unknown: 00:49:11

trying to create an environment where people feel able to say

Unknown: 00:49:14

what they think and to deal with conflict in a really healthy

Unknown: 00:49:18

way, I think is the key to success in all of that. So

Unknown: 00:49:22

you're you're absolutely right. I think paying attention to the

Unknown: 00:49:27

bits that you are good at the bits that you are not good at

Unknown: 00:49:30

your own biases, your own blind spots, and being willing to sort

Unknown: 00:49:34

of hold yourself to a county that say, well actually, I need

Unknown: 00:49:37

somebody then in a team that is willing to pick me up on that if

Unknown: 00:49:41

I slip into that way of thinking I've it's really, really easier

Unknown: 00:49:44

said than done, because sometimes that is really

Unknown: 00:49:46

uncomfortable. But we all have blind spots. I think more of a

Unknown: 00:49:51

if we had more of a 360 process that focused on blind spots and

Unknown: 00:49:55

people's projection back to you as to what your blind spots are

Unknown: 00:49:58

rather than just general for But I think that can be really quite

Unknown: 00:50:01

helpful to, to individuals to pay attention to where they

Unknown: 00:50:05

might be slipping into a very formulates a pattern of thinking

Unknown: 00:50:10

that might not necessarily be what the organization needs.

Lee Griffith: 00:50:13

Great. Thank you so much for your time. And

Lee Griffith: 00:50:16

there's loads in that I think for anybody who's interested in

Lee Griffith: 00:50:21

leadership who is on their own leadership journey and and

Lee Griffith: 00:50:25

trying to be more critical, I suppose of the impact they make.

Lee Griffith: 00:50:29

If people want to connect with you, they want to feedback on

Lee Griffith: 00:50:34

you know, the inspiration that you've given them. Wait, how's

Lee Griffith: 00:50:37

the best way? Is it LinkedIn? Twitter, what's the best way to

Lee Griffith: 00:50:40

Yeah, not

Unknown: 00:50:41

a big user of LinkedIn but do use Twitter so if people

Unknown: 00:50:45

want to reach out that's Kevin underscore Magnum are one that

Unknown: 00:50:50

Lee what I've said, you know, none of it is fact. It's just a

Unknown: 00:50:53

perspective. And as I say, still, you know, still very much

Unknown: 00:50:58

a work in progress and continuing trying to sort of

Unknown: 00:51:00

think about what I could do differently.

Lee Griffith: 00:51:11

If you enjoyed this episode, please let me know

Lee Griffith: 00:51:13

on Apple podcasts or on app of choice and drop me a line over

Lee Griffith: 00:51:17

on LinkedIn, you can find me at MI Griffey. I'll be back with

Lee Griffith: 00:51:20

the next episode in two weeks time. So in the meantime,

Lee Griffith: 00:51:23

remember to sign up to my newsletter at Sunny skies.com

Lee Griffith: 00:51:25

for further insights on how to lead of impact until next time,