Acclaimed Attorney Ben Glass joins hosts Richard James and MPS on Your Practice Mastered podcast to reflect on lessons from his trailblazing 40-year legal career. Known as "The Mad Ref" for his 50 seasons as a fiery soccer referee, Ben brings the same passion for shaking up the status quo to challenge courtroom conventions on this whistleblowing lawyer's pursuit of happiness.

Tune in as Ben shares unconventional, game-changing advice for legal entrepreneurs, riffing candidly on everything from managing talent and stress-testing systems to the urgent need for firms to walk the talk on client service. You'll come away ready to transform dysfunctional law firm traditions strangling your sense of purpose and joy.

So you have to have a good leader, I believe, a good leader from outside the firm to come in to facilitate these discussions. And what does it mean? Like, sometimes you have change, right? You do. Like, Brian and I were doing a thing earlier today, and we were recording something for our members, like, you know, turnover is not bad.

Like turnover is life. Like it is just life. So look, nobody said that running a law firm was easy. We know it's not easy. What we try to do is take it to a level that goes a little bit beyond just office procedure manuals and stuff. I mean, literally we have this chance to build a community, a tribe in the firm, right?

Richard James: Yeah. Yeah. Like you told, Like you told those young soccer referees, it's going to take years, right? It's not going to happen. You're not going to learn this in three Law firm owner is not going to learn all this in three months

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MPS: Hey law firm owners, welcome to the Your Practice Mastered podcast. We're your hosts. I'm MPS.

He gave me that chance. As a matter of fact, I got my first ever client. From your event. So Ben, welcome today. And of course, thanks for giving me my leverage in my start all those years ago.

Ben Glass: Or our common mentor, Dan Kennedy, just wrote in his most recent newsletter that he was shocked, shocked at how old his lifers looked when he saw us in the summer. And he's talking about you and me and, and others of our who were, who were hanging out over a decade ago. At high end masterminds we were the only lawyers or selling to lawyers, any of that stuff.

Learning from people in all walks of life. Most of them doing things bigger, better, and faster than I was doing for sure. And probably you would say the same. So the

Richard James: I was, I was the smallest fish in the pond. No question

it

Ben Glass: Our bee in the room.

Richard James: Yeah.

Ben Glass: yeah, Dan's talking about us. Everybody's looking older.

Richard James: Yeah. But, but I'm, I'm excited about today's conversation, Michael.

you

Ben Glass: Well you

know this is the second time I've been on your

program and the first time I said Yeah Well you know I was the shyest guy in high school and college and in law school says, well, I can't say that again, but here's something I say I've shared from stage that. That most people don't know is that, you know, three times in my career, 40 years now I've been named as a defendant in the legal malpractice claims.

And there's learning in all of that. Two of them were legitimate claims process errors in the firm I worked with. My name was on the file. One was a BS claim. But here's, here's the learning. It was fascinating for those of us who do litigation is in the first case, I was very young. And I just did whatever the insurance company said.

It was clearly ours. And, and I, what I learned in that, and for anyone who ever like it,

says

You can actually. Direct your insurance company. Like you do not have to do what they say. And that case turned out a lot better because the client, even though we had made an error, she appreciated the fact that we owned it.

And we weren't going to BS her. Like the first case. We BS them and, and we, and Ben paid for it. Right. Ben, like a lot of bad publicity, mostly with pre internet. And then the third case was just a knucklehead. And the lesson of the third case was taking a case to try to help somebody who didn't really have a good case.

And in my early years, we, we were not, you know, often sometimes perfect on that and it costs, but there's lessons there's learning in all of that. And especially, you know, if you're litigating, you're taking depositions and suing people like. Sitting in that other seat. I don't wish that on anybody.

It's a horrible, it's a horrible life experience. But here, here we are still, still rocking.

Richard James: You know, it's interesting, Ben. It, it, this bridges into interesting conversation that we were, now we're having off camera which is this idea of professional service provider, right? And what you recognized when you were in control of the direction of that litigation or defense of that litigation was that you weren't going to BS your, your client.

And if that moved on meant you had to write a check There were the insurance company had to write a check then so be it But you know, I don't know about you, but I am, I'm getting kind of sick and tired of the level of quality of service and the BS people try to hide behind anymore, instead of just owning their issues and dealing with, and quite frankly, providing good quality level of service As they said they were going to do in their contract or just in a handshake deal and it, it, it now unfortunately doesn't surprise me how often I'm let down.

Right?

Ben Glass: Here's, here's the philosophical thing. Here's the thing I tell a vendor. So, Hey, you're going to work with me. I want to make you famous. I want to make you your next million dollars. Okay. So let's work together. Sure. I'm paying you. I want you to be great, but if you're really good, I will tell the world about you because I'm relatively famous as you are in this lawyer niche, right?

Here's the process. Let's fix it. Let's Oh, screw up again. Oh, screw up again. We fired. We had a virtual telephone answering service for a while that we fired. They screw up two times, big time in like six days and we fired him and then they wouldn't give us our money back. Like, Oh, well, you're signed a three month contract.

Richard James: Yeah. And, and if, and by the way, if you're not capable of doing what you said you were going to do, don't sign up with me. Cause with the other side of this coin is true.

Ben Glass: just don't over promise either. Like we had one, like there was a huge over promise and I don't think that, I think when he went back and told the team what he just sold, they're like, I'm not sure we can do that. And then every step of the way it was a disaster. Yeah, and I'm told that story too.

Richard James: you know, we talk, I talk about to bridge this gap for the law firm or the owners that are listening, like this is you're in the, they're in the service business, right? And so, so really make sure that you can execute on the promises that you deliver and, and, and you shouldn't be making promises in the legal realm on outcomes, obviously but you can make promises on how you communicate and how well you'll, how well you'll hold their hand and you'll be there for them and you'll handle situations when they come up.

Ben Glass: yeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah.

Richard James: and we had, I had a visual recognition of this cause we, they have a dashboard in the background that they could literally talk to one another.

Right. So on the. Chat, they were saying bad mouthing this particular vendor. And so I went to the vendor and I said, Hey, here's, you just gotta know, this is what's being said. Could you please fix it? And all they cared about was it's so unfair of you to not let me be in your chat so that I could address these things.

These are false accusations. I go, dude, stop.

Ben Glass: Yeah.

Richard James: 12 firms saying the same crap. Like one guy might be false, but there's some, there's some truth here somewhere. Stop worrying about you defending your good name and just go fix the problem. Well, they left, right? They left because everybody quit. And then I brought the next guy into your point.

Is they, we teach them how to sell. We teach them how to market. We teach them how to generate clients. And sometimes they say yes to so many new clients and they don't have the capacity on the backend to service the client and they don't know how to figure that problem out and they speed up the pace at which everybody figures out they're not very good at what they do.

Right. And so my part of my advice is yes, I want you to grow. And I, and I, yes, I want to market first and I want to sell first for sure, but we got to figure out simultaneously how to fix our workflow pipeline so that we can manage the workflow that's coming through. I mean, do you guys experience that in your firm as well?

Or how do you guys manage that when you're growing?

Okay, but that way it kind of sucks you know, so so for example in the last couple years i've hired like tax consultants And estate planning consultants these kind of advisors and what do they do? They do the same thing that doctors do they send you 14,000 pages of forms to fill out and and then you get a recall them and you find out, well, really, they didn't need all of that.

So I have an appointment coming up. I must get 10 emails and 10 texts reminding me of the appointment. I will be there. I honor time. I will be there. But when I get there at two o'clock for my two o'clock appointment, why am I not being seen until

3:15

I fired Dennis for doing this BS. Oh my gosh.

Like you don't honor anything. You want me, you tell me, send me all these texts, be here on time, be here, be here earlier. So my point though, for lawyers is every so often you have to pause and ask yourself, how does this look like? And survey your clients, ask them, what did you like about working with us?

What did you find challenging people who hired you or who didn't hire you? I try to get as much information as you can. And try to fix it. And here's the cool thing. Owner doesn't need to know all the answers. Owner does not need to know all the answers. Owner's team goes first. How do we make this better?

MPS: Well put, very well put. Well, I, this was, I liked the little tangent there because I think this tangent was helpful and I think this idea of service and honoring what we say we're going to do is. Just important. And it's not very hard to do. You just gotta, you just gotta do

and

Ben Glass: threshold, no threshold lawyers.

MPS: Sure yes yes

But that being said, Ben, why don't you take us at least from the high points?

Cause I think you're celebrating 40 years in practice.

Ben Glass: just, yeah.

MPS: 40 years of practice. So why don't you take us through, through the high points of your entrepreneurial journey?

Ben Glass: so I worked, I got at a law school,

So, It was a long commute. I was coaching three soccer teams. I was like, this kind of sucks. I need to be closer to my family. We were doing some work. I, I didn't, I didn't like, like the direction or the non direction of the firm. So let's just go start a law firm. How hard could this be? Next day, I'm at office depot, like buying, what am I doing here?

Good Lord. What did I just done? And so, and so that was hard. So I took cases with me and so I had money, right? But then the money ran out and I didn't really know anything. I didn't know anything about business. Of course, like most lawyers who come to your practice, mastered, come to GLM. Like we are good at lawyering and we're great at identifying issues and taking tests.

But the business stuff we lack and I lack every aspect of the business. And it got, you know, so fortunate. I was on a bunch of success literature mailing lists and I got Dan Kennedy's magnetic marketing letter and almost returned the product after I bought it. I'm like, Oh, this actually makes some sense.

And so the practice started to grow. The next sort of growth thing that I didn't know anything about was hiring people and getting my ego out of the way and hiring the right people. And so that was a, just, you know, I have one just, my life is one disaster after another. As you move through these stages of growth, it's just always hard.

Like doing new stuff is always hard. And I want people to hear that and to know that a coach, young, teenage referees, like you, you can't be good in three years. It's just going to be hard. We got to get you through it. So not knowing how to hire, and then, you know, once we had more cases, they have more people like, all right, systems door, the light out, the door is getting like, oh my God, like, this is horrible.

And, and he's a good systems guy. And so he fulfilled that. He brought over a little bit of a different type of practice. And I'm a visionary. I'm the guy that gets 4 million ideas by 10 o'clock in the morning, text everybody, drives them crazy. And now I have to get my ego out of the way. Cause they're telling me like, that's not a good idea.

That's not a good idea. We're not going to do that. But I'm good with it because we're, we're actually. We make more money. We have fun. We really like the people that we work with. And as a result of that, when your marketing works and your people work, your systems work, then you say no to all the bad clients. And that is because when you're young and the money is tight and the ego, Oh, somebody wants me to represent, Oh, Michael's called me. He wants me to represent him, but I get on the phone with Michael. I go, this guy's a jerk. Like, but, but, but I kind of need the money, right? That just makes life miserable.

And then, and also giving them permission to live their own lives for their own selves. Like I ran like this is a one way journey. The purpose of living is to be happy. That is the purpose of living on earth, to be happy. So let's do that. And that's really what I bring to the, to the world. I think a little bit, not just lawyers, but everybody I talk to.

That's a long answer to the question,

Richard James: no, no, no. It's great. That was great. So one thing I want to highlight is you've been a lawyer for 40 years, but GLM has been around 20 years. Is that right?

We just started, I didn't, I didn't really have a plan or I didn't have. You know, I had some blueprints we started like, on the, every other month was a print newsletter. And then the next month it was a CD. I just record stuff. Now it's really robust. We write tons of articles and as you do, like you've got this whole, you have this library of accumulated material, which anybody who comes into your world.

And legitimately accesses and studies the IP that you have created. Like that is a MBA in running a law firm. The difficulty is that we were not, most of us are not born entrepreneurs and we don't get the entrepreneurial

Richard James: You said it like on your, and I wrote that down by the way. I'm like, that is genius. You need to trademark that. That's perfect.

Ben Glass: everything that's, that's straight out of Gerber's original work, the e myth. Yeah.

Richard James: The

E E-myth right? Yeah. I mean, at Gerber, you're right. Gerber did say that back in the E-Myth or the E myth revisited one or the other, but, but that, that entrepreneur, see, that is so common in the life of the law firm owner, because. And I think I've talked to you about this before. I, I've never, I never, I'm not a lawyer.

I didn't teach at a law school, but I was invited to be a guest lecturer at a law school at a particular, you know, class. And so I was virtual and I did it and it was great. And there was, I don't know, 18 ish young students in the room. and I asked all of them, you know, after I kind of, or to start off my presentation, like, tell me how many of you consider yourselves entrepreneurs and expect that you're going to specifically open up a law firm on your own.

Everybody's hand went up. So none of them saw themselves as entrepreneurs, like by definition, right? But they all somehow recognize that if they want to get to where they ultimately want to get to, they may have to hang their own shingle in their own language. It's like, they don't see it as being a business owner.

They see it as being a. Practitioner, but you had an entrepreneurial seizure where like, no, no, there's more to this. And so talk about that a little bit. Like, why do you think this is? Cause I, I, you know, I've been in this industry now for a number of years, as you well know, and, and I'm not a lawyer and I had to learn through this process of wait.

Ben Glass: Well, I think, so first of all, like my, you know, I, I, I've had other ventures, right? And so in high school, I was dealing out of my locker and people go, Oh my God, dealing out of his locker. Well, I was selling soccer uniforms and shoes and shin guards because it was, this is again, pre internet, pre soccer stores.

So I get this stuff and just sell it to my friends. But the reason is, the reason is, I think is that the way the whole industry is set up is. Is you have to, it's set up to test well in certain subjects, in certain, very linear, logical thinking identifying issues and fixing issues. So there's very little in law school about creativity coming up with a new design.

Then when you get in law school, so I am a hundred percent convinced that law schools exist to feed big law. They're very expensive. They in debt you, and then they feed you off to you know, in some cases, a 185, 000 a year job, but they don't tell you, Richard, it's really two 80 hour a week jobs because you don't get any time off.

You're expected to be there seven days a week. Holy crap. And then the shame is. Lawyers get five, six, seven years out and they quit the profession as a whole, even though they're really smart, good people, because they've never seen what you have, they've never seen what I have. They don't even know this world.

Is a feed They also want to feed big law. They want to make sure that, that you don't do anything out of the ordinary. Right. They actually want to make sure that you're not successful. And they wonder why lawyers are so depressed. Right. So they've always advertising regulations. The only lawyers ever get in trouble with the ethics bar are the small firm lawyers.

They don't go after the big firm lawyers. And so I'm that little voice in the wilderness that says, No, actually, you're supposed to be happy and I can help you design. You have to decide what happiness is for you in life first life, then what business supports that happiness, what client supports that business.

And so it's a, it's a big blue ocean, I think. And all, all I'm trying to do is get lawyers to, to, oh, oh, they're happy. In all different practice areas, because like I could never do family law, but there are lawyers who absolutely thrive in family law. Other lawyers could not do like every dollar I make is a contingent fee.

I only win. I only get paid if I win every dollar. And other lawyers could not stomach that, right? They want to have it in the trust account and draw from it. So there's a place for everybody. And the shame is that some lawyers just don't get to see the breadth of the opportunities that are out there for us.

Richard James: Yeah. By the way, you talked about this idea that you had this entrepreneurial spirit. Michael, if you remember our interview with Brian he said that there might be a disagreement, you remember what that conversation was?

Ben Glass: Oh, I know. He says, he says, I say, look, we listen to Dan Kennedy. If you talk to us all the time, he goes, no, that's not true. Mom says it's true. So, so mom, so God bless Brian, right? He's got a great podcast, Time Freedom for Lawyers. Mom listens to that. You know what mom says? He's channeling you and I can't believe he got it from me or Richard James or Michael or whoever, right?

The point is that we, so the point for people to think about is Brian and I are aligned on what we're doing here. And he probably, if you ask them the question, what are we doing here? We were built a place where people will thrive. Bottom line. That's why we're here. Us, we thrive, owners thrive, the team thrives.

If you've got bad ownership and you're, and you're never, you don't see a way to advance. And so how can we make this place? A place that brings energy to people so they're not crying on Sunday night because they had to come into work on Monday. Right? And so we try. Are we perfect? No, we're not perfect, but we always ask ourselves and we ask the human question, Richard, if you work for me, how can I make this perfect for you?

Because if you don't know the answer to that question and you can't communicate to me, then what are we here for? Like, and so that's, and you have to be prepared for the answer too when you're bold enough to ask that question, ask of your spouse, like. Like, how can I be better? Like, how can I make this perfect for you?

And not because we have ping pong tables, it's because we don't. But we actually like each other. We do interesting work. We 100 percent defend our clients, defend our people against bad clients. It's rare, but it happens. I'm pointing to the phone. Like it's rare, but it happens. And we value our team very, very, very, very highly.

And we mean it when we say that

MPS: I love the, what would make this perfect for you question. I think that's, that's such a valuable question. And to your point, you got to be willing to accept whatever answer that is, depending on who you're delivering that message or that question to.

Now, think about that. You have to have a high trust in leadership to be able to have it. It's really easy to go, Michael, here's the five things I really like about you, okay? Michael, here's the thing that I want you and I wish that you knew about yourself and you could change. Those are interesting, deep leadership conversations that make our, our two day annual offsite retreats just really intense, fun.

But when we come out of those meetings, we are, we are aligned and we would, we would literally do anything for each other.

Richard James: I tell you what, that's I think about putting myself in that situation. And as much as I want to admit. Suggest or think that I would I would take it with a grain of salt. I'd let it roll off my back when somebody would tell me what they didn't love about me. I have to admit that I, as a human, I'm sure that would feel a little icky at first and I would ha

Ben Glass: That's

Ben Glass: as the giver of the advice. That is a deep thing as the receiver of it, because again, what's typically, oh, we're going to go to him and tell her how much they appreciate it. That's easy. Right. And so you have to, here's what I think you have to have. So we do EOS, Ontario Operating System, and we've got great coaches, right?

So you have to have a good leader, I believe, a good leader from outside the firm to come in to facilitate these discussions. And what does it mean? Like, sometimes you have change, right? You do. Like, Brian and I were doing a thing earlier today, and we were recording something for our For our members, like, you know, turnover is not bad.

Who just likes each other, likes working. A players want to work with A players. They do not want to work with C plus players. They don't. So you as owner, keeping people around who aren't a culture fit, who aren't A players, like you're just, you're actually saying to your other A players, I don't really care about you that much.

It's weird. goT a

You can do this in a day. Like it takes a lifetime of being in groups and reading books and having mentors.

Richard James: Yeah. Yeah. Like you told, like you told those young soccer referees, it's going to take years, right? It's not going to happen. You're not going to learn this in three months. You're a lawyer. Law firm owner is not going to learn all this in three months either. We just met with an attorney just before this, for another podcast recording, by the way, you'd be proud of him.

62 years old. He's, he's doing a hundred burpees a day, man. A hundred burpees a

Richard James: right. Exactly. It's hard work just to keep you. And he did 100. He wants to do 119 minutes or something. I'm like, Oh, my goodness. Anyway, yeah, very aggressive. But, but, but he's talking about how he feels like he now has a doctorate in this small business management stuff, but it's been 10 years, took 10 years, right?

To know what everybody thinks he got so lucky to learn all of a sudden. Yeah. But I have a question regarding the talent because, because you're a big leader, you know, team guy, management guy. And so you talk about a level talent. And so, a lot of the questions I get and, and I know you've created an amazing culture.

I guess the question is very specifically because of the amazing culture, does it alleviate the need for you to have to pay or overpay at the top level for this a level talent?

And, and, you know, I'll send my paralegals out to paralegal meetings and they're like always recruiting

Richard James: Hmm. Right.

Ben Glass: again, going back to the conversation we had earlier on this podcast is the barrier is not high. Most people are miserable in their jobs. So, so we don't overpay. And what we try to do for our non like leadership lawyers in particular is I'll say, Richard, like, what's your vision?

Like you got an event you want to go to great. Here's the, here's the. No limit, no limit, but the obligation is you come back, you do lunch and learn. Like, what did you learn at this event? Right? I have so many firms like, Oh, I'm going to give you like 200 a year to go to this thing. No, I want my team to be great.

So, and I guess the last thing I'll say just on that on talent acquisition is we're really clear on. As we do with marketing. So the key to marketing is identifying who you want to see walk into the door with a case. The key to talent acquisition is identifying and then putting in writing and then telling the whole world, this is who I need.

We have turnover. But we don't over, we don't overpay, but I think we're generous in, in many regards.

Richard James: We feel the same way about us. We don't, I don't feel anybody would accuse us of overpaying at our firm, but we are very generous with unlimited time off policies and go learn and educate and travel and live wherever you want. And we're a remote company, so we aren't in the office. So people, we have, we have one team member who we.

Don't ever know what state she's going to be in, quite frankly, when she calls in for the meeting on Mondays. And

first What's that

MPS: If in the

Richard James: when I first, what's that?

MPS: if in the

States

Richard James: Yeah. If in the States, that's right. And, and I think that's, and I think, I think Michael, I don't know you as a younger generation, you appreciate the remoteness of our world a little bit.

Is that right?

And so when you're just, you know, Staple and stuff all day and you got the same routine in the same office, not that there's anything wrong with being in an office, especially if it's a good culture, it can lead to this small mindedness a little bit and then frustration out of that. So I, I do really enjoy the freedom and flexibility and from my knowledge, the team does too.

Ben Glass: Everybody has to be clear in what is expected of them in terms of what is being produced, not in what manner or how long it takes or any of that stuff. So if you produce, I don't care where you are when you're

MPS: right. I

love that

Ben Glass: There are certain things like we believe you need to like the best way for a young lawyer to learn how to negotiate is to be in the room and be, you know, listening on the wall or in the same room and listening to discussions with insurance adjusters and stuff.

You can listen every once in a while, like maybe twice a year, there'll be a bad client that's perking up through the pipeline. And he's got some argument or he or she like mad at us. I'm like, great. I'm going to put them on the phone speakerphone. Everybody come in and listen. That's how you teach. That's the most efficient way to teach.

And so I would, I would encourage everyone who's listening to this, who's in a law firm is if I open up your calls and your meetings to your team, who you want to become better subject matter experts so that you can, again, you can get out of the way most of the stuff that paralegals do, like there's this line and, you know, we're giving legal advice or not, but there's a ton of stuff that paralegals can do, legal assistants can do.

That's what people want. I think And you do that by training up your team and you train your team by inviting them in Just to listen. How does Ben talk? How does he how does he ask questions? And then I never answered. The other thing is I never answer a client email. So I forward all the emails to the team.

The team answers them. The team doesn't know they come to me. They ask but that way the team now knows like, what's the answer to this particular question that trains a client to not. To not expect a response from me and eventually they're not emailing me. I'm just getting reports of what's happened in the case.

If they need to report. A lot of our cases are self running cases because I've just developed a great, great team using some of these strategies to teach them without over paying.

MPS: love

Richard James: what a great concept that that's, that is a, that's a win. We could ring the bell and I, I just looked at the clock, Ben. I cannot believe we've been talking for 37

Ben Glass: Christmas. So that's a big family time for us. Number one, number two, in the springtime, I'll start my 50th year since I was licensed as a referee. And so I'll be doing high school and youth games. I'm thinking of getting an art band that says 50, just to promote conversation.

It doesn't mean I'm good or I get everything right, but I do have a ton of experience there. You know, you'll notice none of this is like the legal stuff. I love being in the gym in the off season, the off season, like the non referee season, I'm in the CrossFit gym. Five and six days a week. I love the tribe there.

I'm the oldest one. And I think in our gym is doing CrossFit. So all of that is what makes me excited. Talking to you guys makes me excited. Cause I know you're smart. You're going to ask good questions. And most importantly, like the three of us, I think are changing lives for sure. We're not the only ones for sure.

In the profession. We're going to make some people upset from time to time. That's fine. I don't really care. And I'm a referee and I make a lot of people upset. That's fine. I don't really care. Because I'm relatively good at, at what I do. And I like hanging with you guys.

Richard James: Yeah. We love hanging with you as well. And so we just saw LD came in. ld say hi to Ben there. LD is coming in for the, for the next recording on the podcast,

Ben Glass: Yeah, you guys are busy. Yeah.

Richard James: Hey

You've got, you've got the 50 years of the refereeing. You got the 40 years of being in practice. You got the 20 years of, of having GLM. And you, you, you said something such, you know, your whole world, I can see it now. Is really revolved around you being a connector of, of great people. And, and I I'm just, anyway, I'm, I'm just so honored that you joined us today.

And I, and I appreciate you for being here and for sharing this wisdom with everybody. I know there were those who were listening that got nuggets all the way through. And, and I appreciate you connecting us many, many years ago. So thanks for being here.

Ben Glass: A hundred percent. Yeah. A hundred percent. You folks can, you know, just go find us. We're Brian and I are pretty popular and we have a lot to say on LinkedIn. So that's the place to go. And just, you know, if you like the vibe, you know, check us out. By and large the three of us, the four of us are serving a very similar market, but there is differences and, you know, hats off to you all.

I don't like hammer stuff. I don't like that, but this stuff I really enjoy doing. So it's great. It's great to hang with you guys. Absolutely.

MPS: I appreciate it, Ben.

The pleasure is ours. And to the law firm owners listening to this, thank you for taking the time to listen today. Hopefully you were able to take a nugget because there was plenty of them to take. And if this is not your first time listening or watching, we have the gentleman's agreement around here.

So if you got some value today, we just kindly ask that you hit that subscribe or follow button, depending on where you're listening or watching and show Ben some love in the comments. And we appreciate it. But again, Ben, thank you very much.

Ben Glass: Absolutely

you guys be good

I'll see you at the other side of the new year.

Richard James: Sounds

good.

MPS: Rich, do you want to cut?

Jude. So that's the pod

Ben Glass: Move the world. ​