In this episode of Dancing Class, Laura and Rachel invite artist and researcher Kate Marsh to discuss her journey from growing up in Peterborough to becoming a dance professional and academic. Kate reflects on childhood encounters with movement, the impact of supportive teachers, and how class, disability, and identity continue to inform her relationship with dance. Kate discusses key mentors in her career, barriers to access, and the role of confidence and community in navigating dance and academia. The conversation highlights dance as both precarious a catalyst for empowerment and social mobility.

• Date recorded: 21st February 2025
• Sound Recordists: Dr Laura Taylor, Charlotte Ryan, Igor Mieczkowski
• Editing: Dr Laura Taylor/Amelie Thomas
• Audio accompaniment: Dr Jess Blaise Ward
• Audio accompaniment mastering: Michael Ward

Hi, I'm Laura. Hi, I'm Rachel, and this is the Dancing Class podcast made

possible by the British Academy, Leverhulme Small Research Grant Fund and Leeds Beckett

University. In this series, we invite dance industry professionals from working class

backgrounds in the UK to talk about their experience of dance education and their careers.

We're interested in discussing the ways in which dance can be a vehicle for class mobility in

the UK, and contribute to discourses around levelling up. This series also researches the role

of dance as a catalyst for social and economic progress. Some of our discussions take place

while dancing and are recorded with spatial sound. This creates an immersive effect and the

best listening experience is via the use of headphones. These recordings will be labelled as

binaural. We hope that you enjoy the series. Thanks for tuning in.

Cool, right? Okay, welcome. Well, welcome. Thank you. Here we are. Um, so,

Kate, would you like to just tell us who you are, what you do, and where you come from? Yeah.

Um, in that order, um, in any order. Um, my name is Kate Marsh. I am, I call myself, um, what

do I call myself? An artist researcher. I think I'm quite. I'm quite keen to have those two things

that I don't want to be in, in research, not as an artist. I don't know. It's an important connection

for me, I think. Um, I am an assistant professor at, um, C-DaRe, Coventry University's Centre

for Dance Research. Um, mainly interested in. Oh, this shifts all the time, but I think, um, I've,

I've done a fair bit of work around leadership, particularly For marginalized artists, it kind of

shifted from thinking about disability to understanding that it's not that binary. So I think for me,

all my research actually starts with the question of who's in the room and who am I with? And if

people aren't here, then why not? Um, and that remains probably my most curious thing, right?

Interesting. Um, weirdly found myself in recent recent years, um, moving into, um, work around

robotics and AI dancing with robots and prosthetics, which has been super interesting. I still

don't understand it, but it's really I really love that, um, that coming together of machiney roboty

things and fleshy, messy bodies is really interesting. Wow. Wow. And where am I from? Did

you ask me? I said, where are you from? Well, now I'm going to. This is relevant to this

podcast. When people ask me where I'm from, normally in academia or the dance world, I

always say Cambridgeshire. Um, because then they either don't push or they might think I live

in Ely or Cambridge or somewhere posh. Um, but I'm from Peterborough. I was born in

Leicester and I lived in London for many years, and then couldn't afford to live in London and

moved back home to Peterborough, which is where I live. And still I try and be really nice about

Peterborough, but I often come down to a really great thing about Peterborough, you can get

out of it really easily. It's got good travel, travel links. No. It's, there's some good stuff

happening in Peterborough at the moment. Amazing. And so were your first encounters with

dance in Leicester then or. No, I was two, I was two when I left Leicester. First encounter. I've

been thinking about that when I knew I was coming in to talk to you two. Um, I, I kind of want to

hold off the early, early stuff. Um, but I was I was really considering this yesterday. So my, I

have a tangible, vivid memory of, um, every Thursday it was Top of the Pops night, and it was

on, I think it was on at seven or seven thirty, and fifteen minutes before it was due to start. My,

um, me and my older sister Kez, who's four years older than me, would. It was a ritual. We

would go upstairs and get our leotards on, and neither of us did. Neither of us did. I don't know

why we had leotards. Maybe they were like PE, or maybe they were those kinds of. Yeah, they

weren't nice leotards. They were those. Those really like. Yeah, exactly. Um, we'd put our

leotards on and dance to Top of the Pops. Um. And did you like, dance to, like, who was it?

Pan's People, and then Legs and Co? or was it after that? I think it might have been a bit after

that. I don't remember, but only just. Do you remember how old you were? I think I probably

would have been. I can work that out by thinking, when would my sister have found that

excruciatingly embarrassing as being four years old? So I was probably I was probably about

four, right. Maybe. Maybe a little bit older. Yeah. Um, but I did. And then I did, um, two country

dancing sessions. Jealous. When I was, when I was probably about nine. And not to get too

heavy too soon, but I realized very early that I was in a body that wasn't like anybody else's

body in there. And there was just a lot of hand-holding and a lot of, um, I just I just knew very

quickly I neither had the body or the language to, to be, to feel in that space that nobody told

me I couldn't be there. I just sort of really felt that I couldn't. Wow. So this is English country

dancing? Yeah, just not country and western. Oh. Not line dancing. Now, I'd love to do that.

Well, Laura is obsessed. Have you done it? Well, I used to. Actually, I used to. So I did a lot of

disco dancing. And the place that I did disco dancing did line dancing. And I used to go along

and help teach the adults to do line dancing, but I've forgotten it all. And I would love to. I'm

tempted to go to my local gym and do some of the classes, but yeah, that's a research project

in coming. Let's do it. I just imagine it being really joyful, the repetition and the music.

Absolutely. Um, but yeah. No, it was it was like the English country. Yeah. The the holding

hands. So would that be, like, Dosey Doe and things like. Yeah. And remember Dosey Doe we

could do and dancing around the maypole. Yeah. Is that kind of. I mean, I never got that far I

don't think. It was at a local community center. I literally went twice, I think, or maybe even one

and a half times. Um, but yeah. But then then then I guess I didn't then I. How did I then? I was

always quite gobby so I was into I did like the they call it the drama festival. I don't know if

that's national or just in Cambridgeshire. Just in Cambridge where you go, you read a bit from

a book and I remember reading Plop the Owl Who Was Afraid of the dark. Oh yeah, I read

that. Um, so I was always into like showing off and drama -y type things, but I didn't. I didn't

think about dance until I, um, met who's now one of my very best friends. Um, when I was, I

would have been about fourteen, and she was really into ballet, like, really had done ballet

since four, that kind of thing and was doing performing arts GCSE. Um, and I just fell into it, I

really. So you fell into it at school? High school. Yeah. And one of the things this is something I

think I chatted to you, Rach about this on the phone. I've always got a bit of a bit of guilt around

this that I've never like. I do. I love dance, I've never had that that kind of hunger that I think

I've seen in people who've like. It's hard to pinpoint what what that desire is, what that kind of a

lot of my relationship with dance has been. I'll try that. That's nice. Oh, I might try that now.

Yeah. And it's worked out pretty well for me, but I don't. Yeah, I think I've drifted. I've probably

drifted all the way until after university actually. Yeah. Gosh. When you talk about, um, doing

those readings and yeah, just like being open to giving everything a go, you know, do you think

that that confidence comes from anywhere in particular or, you know, as a young person to sort

of embrace that opportunity? That's a tricky one, I think. I don't, I don't remember consciously.

Do you want to. Oh, I was going to say, do you think the doing of it was giving you some kind

of confidence as well? I think there's several things there, like I think and even now, if I think of

myself even even at the, at the age of fifty, nearly that I don't think I necessarily am a confident

person, but I think I've from pretty early on, and I can remember my dad talking about this, that

I can't remember his exact wording, but that I can fake confidence. I can go into. I can kind of

go, yeah, I'm here. And it's a it's a funny space to occupy because it's not, you know, there's

something um, yeah, it's a funny balance, but. You're a very good faker because I just thought

you were super confident when. When I met you at Greenwich Dance Agency like, a billion

years ago. It's funny, isn't it? I mean, I don't I'm not. I think I like I think I've always liked, I've

always been trying something new and putting myself into into situations. I think I've got, you

know, I really struggle with the term imposter syndrome. I really do. Okay, maybe that'll pop up.

Yeah. Um, but it's something. It's something like that. It's something like a weird thing of, like,

blagging confidence. At the same time of thinking I really shouldn't be here or. Or I completely

know how that feels. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, I think particularly in these institutional

spaces. Yeah yeah yeah yeah. For. Yeah, definitely. I can relate to that. Sure. And you

mentioned Kate then you're a parent. And I just wondered as part of our interest is thinking

about, you know, was dance part of their life or part of your life at home? What sort of like

cultural aspects of your growing up? My growing up. Yeah. And I suppose how how, uh, how

do you define understanding your background and that it was working class. Oh, okay. So

there's a couple of things. Yeah. Sorry. No, no. That's good I think, I think dance wasn't in my,

in in my family. We never went to see dance. We never would have been taken to see stuff.

Um, not not out of a lack of wanting to, but just not thinking of it as something that you did.

Yeah. Um, I don't ever remember my mum dancing. I don't actually even remember my mum.

Like dancing. I mean, she must have done. I don't really I don't think my mum did though. Don't

remember like, I, I'm aware that I kind of dance a lot around my kids. Even, we're silly. We'll be

daft together and move, kitchen disco. Yeah, exactly. et cetera. But I don't remember that. I

only remember kind of dancing with my sister. Right. Um, yeah. The the the kind of identity

thing the working class thing is, is I think about that quite a lot because my, my dad, um, is

from, um, uh, near Liverpool. He comes from Port Sunlight in Cheshire, which is fascinating.

Yeah. Um, yeah. So he and he's one of eight comes from a big family, right. And my mum

doesn't. My mum's kind of mum is from, from what I imagine would have been a really

stereotypical middle class family of that time. So I kind of grew up with but also was quite

rejecting of that. Um, so that's interesting. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I wouldn't just I won't. It's

probably not relevant to go into details, but I think, yeah, it was my mum didn't didn't have the

easiest kind of teenage time. So I think when when she met my dad there was a kind of. So I

think what I'm trying to say, there was a, there was a kind of mess of that I was quite aware of

that, that, that, um, that my mum would every now and then, like trying to I can remember my

mum, I remember how introducing me to Prokofiev. Oh, God. And not sitting me down but just

go. And it must have been somewhere very distant for her in her memory. Like maybe her dad

and I remember her playing something to me and and actually that I do remember that

probably does link to dancing because I remember not being able to language it, but going, oh,

there's something I'm finding really exciting about the performativity of this and the, the, um.

Yeah. Um, but yeah, my dad and my dad was was, um, I'm really I'm finding myself quite

conscious of going, oh, what are the stereotypes? What are these markers that I think so I'm

sort of don't know. My dad drove a lorry one of eight. Am I taking enough working class boxes?

But it was never talked about. My dad would never. It was just inherent kind of in what we ate,

how we ate, how we were that that um, and I didn't clock loads of those things, like when we

were kids, it was pretty normal to have your dinner in front of the telly, right. You know, or or

which, of course, it might not have been for your mum growing up. No, I don't think it was. I

think my mum had a very well I know she had a very strict dad. It was much older than her

mum so I think she was kind of, rebelling. But it's something about those weird semiotics or

signifiers, isn't it, that that also like, um, I mean, my mum left school at sixteen. Um, but did the

grammar school thing, so has a bit of, you know, has a bit of French and I can remember

things like that would when growing up that it would be dropped in or and I can actually

remember being a bit surprised by it. Right. Um, but yeah, I don't think my mum was posh, but

definitely middle class in the, do you know, do you know, like we always got our, um, school

uniform from a second hand shop in Peterborough called Kids Stuff. Okay. And I remember at

the time going, oh, can I just get a new jumper. But really, I think now I understand that there is

that difference between need and that slightly, more middle class thing of frugality. Yeah. Does

that make sense? It's hard to hard to explain. There's something. Yeah. And I mean, what's

interesting is like forty years ago, that would have been maybe a little bit uncomfortable going

to a second hand shop, whereas now it's quite cool and trendy and we all shop on Vinted etc..

It's like second hand, yeah, it does not mean the same as it did. Yeah, forty years ago. I think

in terms of, yeah, signifying your place in the world or your economic place in the world. Yeah.

Which is interesting. I mean, I think that's a really good point that it's hard to untangle what has

just changed anyway. Like, you know, I could say we didn't ever, ever eat out as a family. We

never, ever we might have gone to the pub. And I don't know if you remember this, um, when

pubs had kids rooms. Well, sort of, not really, because I, I, I didn't go to pubs because my

parents didn't go to pubs. Partly because they weren't British originally. So I went to the

Ukrainian club or the Polish club or the Yugoslav club with my dad, which was like a very

different space to like a, an English pub. But I know what you mean. I know what you're talking

about. And likewise with you. We never I never ate out in a restaurant my entire growing up.

Yeah, and we never got a takeaway. Oh, God. No, we got chips. Sometimes we'd get chippy

because my dad and I think this is a real Scouse sense of humour. I remember loads. Um, and

actually, with young kids, it's a good one to try. Yeah. Um, if we were playing up on a Friday

night, my mum was on her way back from work. My dad, if he'd got back off back from work

because he worked, really, he would often like start at four in the morning and he'd be home.

Yeah, early. And my dad would sit me and my sister down and go, who, who wants a chippy

tea? We'd be like yes, definitely. And he goes, right, sit down on the sofa, shut your eyes, put

your hands on your knees and just say, I wish I could wish for fish and chips. I wish for fish and

chips. And then, unbeknownst to us say, he'd go and ring my mum in the office. And then we

would just be like, it was magic. Oh. When my mum would come through the door with chips.

Yeah, but yeah, but that would, we'd sometimes have, have chips. But yeah, but I think, I mean

maybe I don't want to divert us but I think, no but it's part of the conversation. It's huge. Um,

yeah. And actually that's one of my things of kind of getting more and deeper and deeper into

the dance world of kind of looking at what people ate, like looking at people's lunches and, and

really kind of thinking, oh, God, I don't even know what that is, you know, or just a different

attitude to. I mean, maybe this is a bit deep, but I do also think there is something about worth

and thinking about the food that you put in? I don't know. I definitely know there's something

around about around eating and food. Yeah, definitely. For sure. Yeah. And yeah, I mean, it's

really interesting because like, I come from a working class background, but slightly it's not. My

parents were both from abroad and so my mum thought hilariously, even though we were

working class, she thought fish and chips were really common, so we barely had those as well.

I mean, it was a massive treat to have it and I think I had it. I can only remember having it

once. And then when I went to high school, I literally ate chips and gravy for the entire first two

years of my schooling there because it was just like I wasn't allowed it, and now I can have it

because I can choose it. Do you know what? I think you've landed on something there that is

really important around. I remember, quite a few years ago, uh, checking in with working class

artist group, which I don't even know if it exists anymore. It was like a gathering thing. And I

remember being with my dad and just mentioning it to him, and he was. He was a bit like.

What? And he wasn't saying you're not working class, but he doesn't have the same. And I

think you just reminded me of when you said about your mum, like, one of the things I

remember, a word that my dad would say a lot is about being uncouth. So a real sense of like,

in, in. I don't know if this is a northern thing, but my family in Liverpool, or maybe it's just that

they all have a good room. Oh yeah. Yeah. The good room. And nobody goes in. And in my

auntie's house, it was through the front door to the right. And in my grandad's house it was like

it was just the good room. Yeah. And it's about that sense of properness. Yeah. That I think, so,

my dad's always been like, you know, don't swear, it's uncouth. Don't, you know, don't kind of.

Don't wear that or not. Not, but just very aware of being proper in the world and not wanting to

seem common or. And we talked about that before about how you present yourself in the

world. So you're, you're you want to present, you know, it's sort of really important. Oh, let me

backtrack a bit. So when I left, um, home and went to uni or, and then I started, you know,

you're there's a bunch of eighteen and to twenty year olds and you're all in ripped jeans or

whatever it is. So my mum suddenly saw me as being, you know, unbelievably scruffy,

whereas I was calling it arty because there was a pride in not showing how poor you were in

the way you dressed. In a way. So did you feel growing up then, that you. I think you talked a

little bit about this already Kate, but, you know, when was the point then that you thought, I'm

working class, or is it just something that you never considered? It's funny because when Rach

was just talking then about senior school, I think at senior school, I would say most of the

friends I socialized with, we were in the majority. We were eating the same things. Our parents

did similar things, and it was unusual if you had. I had a handful of friends who had a posher

house or a posh, a new car, like we never had a new car. And, um, that, that, you know, when I

say not a new car, we had really old, you know, we properly, um, I have several memories of

breaking down and things falling off, cars and stuff. Many of those. We didn't have a car even.

Yeah, we always had a car. Actually. We did. Um, but. Yeah, but I remember there would be

kids that always to me seemed very neat, very kind of. And their lives were a bit felt different,

like their houses were you know, but I think I. But then I went, I went to kind of just this normal

comprehensive. So I think at that point I felt like we were all a bit, a bit like that. Yeah. And

Peterborough is not a posh place. It's a fairly, I don't want to say deprived. I can't quite think of

another word. It's, it's probably predominantly a working class city. Yeah. With um, weirdly

surrounded by posh villages. Yeah, yeah. Exactly like where I was from, actually. Yeah, yeah,

yeah. And, you know, Oldham and then surrounded by Saddleworth, which is still very. Yeah.

You know, affluent. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. We used to go for Sunday day trips to Saddleworth.

Really? Yeah, absolutely. To be in nature, to get away from the city. Yeah. Just out of interest.

What what newspaper did your parents read? Um, I actually not not, I think honestly, I think

the, um, probably, like the local, I don't remember. Okay. My dad, I don't remember having a

paper. I mean, obviously because Liverpool, my dad was vehemently anti Sun. Not anti Sun so

much because we were I mean I that was before that but I think but it very lefty very, very, you

know very socialist full on Labour. Labour. Yeah. Right. Um yeah. Interesting. Not so much now

I'm afraid. No. Well, also he was. Yeah. Me and my dad have, have had we've actually had to

stop talking about Jeremy Corbyn because my dad, he didn't approve. I was like, I can't have

this conversation with you. That's really hard. Um, wow. And I get it. Just he's like, yeah, just.

Yeah, just don't talk about jezza. I mean, I don't talk about politics with my brother or sister

actually. No. I just don't head in that territory. It's better not to. Isn't it? You just think. Yeah.

Yeah. But also, I think my dad likes to feel responsible for my political position, so I think it's

slightly pisses him off when I'm like, when you don't do pro-corbyn, he's like, yes, but he's

voted against the party for this, this and this, and he's. He's far too he's far too left. And like, he

really isn't. Yeah. Um, yeah. Cool. So getting back, uh, to tell us about your journey, then into,

like, to uni and then also like, becoming a professional dancer and. Okay. I mean, what what

will nod to because it's, it's, um, I think probably I mean, I don't want to over credit them and I

will share this with her if she's listening. I went to an absolutely brilliant secondary school.

That's gone. It's gone up and down in recent years. But at the time I basically I left the school I

was at when I was thirteen because I wasn't getting on there. All right. Weirdly, it was the ex

girls ex County girls school. It used to be county girls and then it became a comp. Yeah. Um, I

didn't like it there. It felt it felt it just didn't work for me. I make that sound better. I was being a

bit bullied, so I left. Um, it didn't work for me. I wasn't working, so, um. Kind of brilliant that you

could have done that, actually. And just left and found another place. My mum was brilliant,

actually. She she clocked it and was like, it's the right thing to do. Great. So then I went to

Walton Comprehensive. Yeah. And at the time I was there, the performing arts and the art

department were run by a married couple called Pete and Rowena Hayward. And they would

now, when I'm saying it seems bizarre when you think about how fucked the dance pedagogy

in the UK is, yeah, but they had Emilyn Claid come and perform, they had Laurie Booth, all

that kind of would come and do workshops with us. Oh my God. I mean, I missed out slightly

on Emilyn, Emilyn stuff. I mean, even now when I, when I encounter Emilyn in the dance world,

I'm a bit like deferential. Yeah, yeah, but. So that spawned Mark Murphy, the who then went on

to create V-tol. So Mark Murphy came from your school? Yeah. Oh my God. Um, and I think I

just think Pete and Row were just they knew how. So I think probably there was quite a few

working class kids who would never have thought that dance was an option. And where did

they come from then, though? I don't know where they're from. I know that Pete was always.

They met at Chichester, which is where I ended up going. Ah, but when it was a teacher

training college. So Row was a PE teacher, going to be a PE teacher. Yeah, they just were

amazing. Very experimental. Like when you speak to people who went to the school, the main

memory of Pete, who would who would direct all the dance shows would be he would take the

register with a fag, but like, and then just like. And and you just he'd put his cigarette like, um,

like to pause he'd like, put it on his, on his filter tip and then we'd just watch it, just like going

down while he was talking about something. Um, I think that was instrumental. It would never

have been. My my parents would never have thought of dance as an educational thing that

someone could do. Yeah. Um, you know, in my family, you got a job at sixteen, right? You

know. Oh, really? So not even further or higher education? No. And it wasn't a pressure. It

was. It was. There was no hierarchy. I don't I don't think it was even a consideration. Right. It's

just what you did. Um. Right. Wow. Um, so I'd met Pete and Row and kind of got into into

performing arts. Um, and that year, if I think about that year group and compare it to like A

level things now we all went on, we all went on and and went to university and oh my gosh,

wow. That's just kind of, uh, indicative of what can happen when you have like these key

individuals. Yeah, in a school, in a high school. I mean, they deeply cared about about our

about us kind of what's the word? I can never pronounce it pastorally. Yeah. They cared about

our lives and they cared about, um, about kind of possibilities for all of us. And I think. Yeah.

Um, yeah, we did these. We did these Friday night dance rehearsals, and we put on a big

show every year. And in a way, I think we were fulfilling, particularly Pete's creative desires to

make something. We do these these kind of big things. And I was never very good. I wasn't

very good at dance. I've never felt very good. Are you sure? Yeah. Just out myself in that I

don't I don't think I actually thought, oh, I'm all right at this until I was probably about thirty six

and said I'd left Greenwich and just thought, oh, I think I might be okay at this. Oh. Um, okay.

That's where me and you differ. And perhaps you. I think I think I started it and thought, this

feels good. I think I'm quite good at this as well, I think, which was a driver for me to pursue it. I

remember thinking it felt good, but. But I mean, I was always crap at school. I was I mean, one

of my favorite jokes. I have to be careful because I don't know how many people professionally

know this. I'm sure they wouldn't sack me. Um, one of the and I enjoy this as a, as a kind of

situation is that I've got two GCSEs and a PhD I quite like that. That I've worked very hard.

Yeah. You know, it's not. Yeah. Academia is not easy. But again, it's indicative of what's been

valued hasn't it, in education. So as much as I didn't feel good at dance, I do remember

thinking this is something I can actually do. It was one of those GCSEs dance? Performing

arts, wasn't dance, performing arts. But it was mainly dance. It might have been expressive

arts, actually. Oh, which was your other GCSE then? Just out of interest. Child development.

So I was either I was either going to get either going to be a teenage mum, a nursery nurse or

a dancer. Oh, brilliant. And then what came after school? Um, then I did, then I. Oh, I'm

crediting everyone I met. Um, I had a posh boyfriend. Oh, when I was sixteen, called Ben, and,

um. Well, his parents were, um, teachers, and he lived in a very big bohemian house, and I

was very seduced by it. And I was seduced by the fact that his mum would swear and be, you

know, and, um, there was lots of lots of kind of it was one of those, like, saggy, comfortable,

deeply middle class houses. And I liked it there. And I really remember and I so interesting

how she was swearing and your dad would think that's really uncouth. And I still think I still

witness that now when swearing becomes a kind of. So that's that thing about also manners,

social manners. And actually sometimes they're like reversed. The higher up the class scale

you go, in a way, it's sort of like the opposite to what you might think is. Yeah, absolutely. And

and Ben was going to uni, he was going to do history at the University of North London. And I

just kind of copied him not to do history, but I just remember thinking and I did my application,

my UCAS stuff, very late, very kind of oh, I'll just see um, and I applied to do English and

related arts at Chichester, which was then the West Sussex Institute of Higher Education. And

in my first week I changed to dance. Oh. Oh my God, did you just, like, peer through the

windows of the dance studio? I think I maybe on some level I knew I was always going to do it,

but my mum and dad were very, um. They didn't want me to do dance because their view was,

you'll never get. You won't get a job. Yeah, yeah. They were like, it's not an employable thing,

do English. And it's weird because when our Alf has just gone to Leeds. Yeah. My dad was a

little bit like, oh, you know, maybe do maybe do this, this kind of. And he, you know, I can't

remember which one. Maybe he was pushing for philosophy. I can't remember, but, um. Yeah.

Yeah, they, I think and they were genuinely worried. I don't think it didn't feel like a punishment.

I just genuinely think they thought I wouldn't get a job. There weren't dance wasn't a job. I think

there's something in that association with status, isn't there? Like doing a degree in a certain

way is going to give you status? Yeah, I was really good at art and English, and my dad was

like, why aren't you going to Oxford to do art history? Yeah, because I want to do dance. And

yeah, I'm quite good at it. And I can write about dance. But of course, that wasn't really

understood. Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. So, so then, so I got and I got I, I applied for several

places actually. And I got I mean this is so weird now thinking about the times that we're in in

so many ways. I've got an unconditional offer from, from um, Chichester. Um, I didn't even

have an audition. Um, not because I'm brilliant, but because they didn't. It was different. There

wasn't. It wasn't as prolific, I think. Um, I also think, and I might be wrong here, I think probably

my secondary school held a little bit of weight. Like I said, I was there had been five or six

people who'd been to my school who came through. It was like a legacy. Yeah. So those those

lecturers know. Oh, I think students from those teachers. Yeah, maybe I can imagine actually.

Yeah, maybe. Um, and then I don't know why, I just think I, I it was, it felt I just, I don't

remember really consciously going, I definitely want to go to Chichester. I just, I think it was

about wanting to be a little bit far away. Yeah. Um, yeah. But I mean, I've visited Chichester.

Yeah. A couple of times over the years. It's quite a posh place. It's posh, but okay. No, it is

posh. I lived in Bognor, so when you go to Chichester there's a campus in Bognor Regis and

there's one in Chichester, and Bognor Regis is much cheaper. And there's a little bus that took

you every day. I lived in Chichester for my third year. Okay. It's I don't know if it's changed now.

It's an odd place to be a poor student because it is very. I went to Surrey, as well, yeah. It's

okay. So did you feel like. Oh, suddenly, like a bit different? I think I'd started to. I think I'd

begun to understand at university. Like with the other students on your course from similar

backgrounds to you. It was a mix. There weren't. Yeah. And I think I definitely at university, I

probably migrated towards people who were like me. Right. I think that I inevitably did that.

Yeah. Um, I had another posh boyfriend at university. So there's a theme. There's a theme

occurring. I'm trying to get social mobility. And I can remember that feeling quite like, oh gosh,

that didn't last long. Um, yeah, I it really wasn't until and I think there's something here for me

about about the privilege or studying dance as a bit of a luxury that I think and it ties into don't

study dance because you won't get a job. And then at university. So it was only really when I

stumbled into working that I then thought, oh, this is quite this is there is something that allows

people this luxury of going, oh, I'm, you know, I'm working, I'm working in dance. And I do think

it's changed, but that might have had support from somewhere else that would enable them to

be in dance or enable them to even consider that that was an option. They didn't just have to

go and get any job. Yeah. What was your first job then? Out of university. Well, um, it was

actually where I met Rach. So my first. Oh, no. Was it my first job out of uni? Hang on. No, my

first job out of uni, as I did a one year Arts Council traineeship with Candoco. Oh, wow. Oh,

God. And that really kicks. I wish they still did them. It was. It was like you got a stipend for a

year. Yeah. I was just in, I did everything. I made cups of tea for the dancers. I sat in

rehearsals, I did class, I sat with brilliant Dawn and did, like, tour stuff. And I learnt a lot. Oh my

God, why did they stop that? Because money. Yeah. Um. Gosh. And then. Then I started

working at Greenwich Dance Agency. Yeah. Um, which is where I met Rach. Yeah. And and

again, I mean, it's interesting talking about it when you realise people. Because actually part of

the brilliance of that job was Brendan Keaney, who is as working class as you can get. Yeah.

Um, like like and what I, I don't know if you I'm sure you probably were one of the beneficiaries

of this Rach. Yeah. But, um, every time an artist came in and Brendan wanted to kind of

schmooze or meet them or settle or whatever, he'd take them for a fry up. Or he was always.

That was his thing. I did. Well, if you didn't have a fry up, I didn't have a fry up, but I have to

say there was one that God, that takes me back. So I remember meeting, um, going to a show

at the place, and Brendan was there and I was on a bit of a downer, like, really struggling to

get some work as a freelancer. So I don't know how, how many years I'd been out, maybe, let's

say four years after graduation. And I remember getting the tube home with Brendan because

we both lived in like Clapham or, well, he lived in Clapham and I lived in Tooting. And I

remember just chatting to Brendan going, oh, I don't know, Brendan. I think I need to jack this

in because it's just not working. And he just talking me around and I went back to his place,

had a cup of tea. He sat me down. And I'm still here today. And literally he talked me out of

giving up. Yeah. So, yeah, I did benefit from Brendan. He was very good at kind of making

those things happen. Yeah. Like, I mean, we've joked about this since that when Brendan

offered, because it was an administrator job. Yeah. Or like reception. Even I can't remember

what it was. Um, like, taking money for dance class and stuff like that. Yeah. And I can

remember, um, Brendan saying something like, you had to do a test. You had to write. Write a

letter. Um, in the interview. Um, and I can remember him going. Yeah, he said your letter was

shit. He said. But but I can really see myself working and offered me the job. And yeah, he's.

Yeah, I've got a lot to thank. I think this is also something that's really interesting in our

conversations that has come up about key figures and individuals who've really given you a lift

up. And actually, it's quite interesting to see that correlation where you say as working class as

you can get, and it feels like there's a real sort of empathy in, you know, like a career pathway

about, like helping each other. And I wondered is, is it Brendan, is there are there others, you

know, are there other people who you think have been instrumental in that? Oh, loads, I think

yeah, yeah, I think I don't know, I don't know, I think I mean, we've talked a bit about that. It's

about like a and I want, I would like to be careful because obviously I don't want to make

assumptions, but I think there is a bit of a radar when you just kind of think it's like Karen at

Coventry. We just think, oh, I just know that there's things that we can connect. Connect or

just, not now experience. There's a shorthand that we can go to. Yeah. And it's a kind of an

easiness. Yes. God, you're right actually, you know. One of the things I've got a real thing

about, there's a working class thing and open, like, I don't know if your parents were the same,

but my dad. And I'm sure this is either a Liverpool thing or a working class thing. It finds it so

easy to tell us that he loves us. And I can remember from being very little, he would say it

regularly. Quite the opposite for me. He would be like, we would get I don't love you, Katie.

We'd get a lot. He really does that a lot. And I feel like Karen, um, I spoke to her the other day.

She ended the phone call just going 'I love you'. And I think, you know, it's an easiness of just

going. It's. There's a difference between okay, bye. Lots of love. It's really like, I love you. It's

just that absolute kind of, informality. But do you play with that? I'm cheeky with that now. I

think I am more cheeky. It definitely got to a point probably about five years ago where I just

thought I'm not. I'm actually going to just be. I'm going, I'm going to my my comfortable way is

informality, and my comfortable way is to just say what I feel or think. I don't know, I have some

filters. Yeah. But but even have it having to be conscious of a filter is interesting, isn't it? But I

suppose it links to me that actually sometimes when I'm in a super posh environment in the in

the academic context we work in, I mean, I think we joked about this, maybe that I'm aware

that I will, I will perform a commonness like I will go if I feel like everyone's kind of yeah, yeah,

posh, I do get a bit like, you know, you know, um, yeah. Yeah. Well, it's a bit like how we were

talking about, Laura and I like, um, you know, do you say dance or do you say dance and I

interchange all over the time, but. And Laura does. Yeah, but the first time you. But I did pick

up the phone when I was working at the National Resource Centre for Dance, and say,

National Resource Centre for Dance, and it sounds really, really caught myself a bit shocked

that I just it rolled off the tongue. Yeah. Um, I feel like that's the only time I remember saying it.

I do both because my mum was grass, my dad was grass. So I've got both really. And like we

were talking earlier when people say theatre. Yeah. And that's going to the opera isn't it. That's

like going to. Yeah. That's going to a classical music concert. You just triggered a memory

once. One time I remember someone said, what do you study? And I said, dance. And they

misheard me and they thought I said darts, like. It's like, yeah, you can do it. You can do a

degree in anything now. Yeah. So, okay, so you're at Greenwich Dance, Dance, dance dance

dance. Actually, that's that's hilarious, because I never said Greenwich Dance. We used to call

it GDA, yeah, I don't think we ever gave it its full title, did we? Well, maybe a bit. I think I might

have said Greenwich Dance a couple of times. Yeah. Well, so you're there. Yep. And then, um,

then I. So whilst you're there, do you think you've got this radar for the people coming through

the door then? Uh, a little bit. maybe a little bit, but what, but I think just slightly going back to

Brendan. Brendan had that thing that we talked about about proper like would do fry ups, but

also was very, um, could be quite posh in terms of if we had an event that it would be had to be

right, had to the crockery had to be posh. And I mean, he always cut a dash. He was a super

like, sartorial, stylish guy. And had a club. Did you ever go to the club? Like a private, like a

member's club? No, it's getting a bit personal now. Oh, no, it was the best. It was, it was the

best. It was in, it was near London Bridge. Oh, you mean like a. Oh, I never went to his clubs,

actually. I'm going to call him up and complain. Yeah. It was only like a little bar. Like a cosy

pub. So he was quite a, was he then sort of like a bit of a mentor for you then? Yeah. Massive.

Yeah a big Yeah, yeah. I tell you what I first encountered in Brendan that I really loved in

people that I've encountered, that I know that is something I need is this kind of. And maybe

this is a working class thing is to be spoken to in a really non bullshit way. I'm actually quite

open to people going, what are you doing that like that for? Or can you get better at that or you

didn't do that very well? It's much I find that I don't know whether that's like overly deferential,

but it's there's something I like about straightforward, straightforward people just direct kind of.

Yeah. Um, yeah. You know, rather than rather than kind of. And it's ironic because I'm not very

good at it. I'm really like, oh, I think you're wonderful. Yeah. That's great. You know, I'm not

great at it, but I love it when I'm on the receiving end of of. That's interesting. Yeah. You've

done that wrong. Yeah, yeah. Just tell me. Yeah. Come on. Yeah. So. So. Yeah. Brendan.

Brendan was

absolutely, um, a mentor. Yeah. And then after GDA, I, um, you got the job at

Candoco. I fell into Candoco. Yeah. Which I guess that's interesting that we haven't talked

about. Is that a big part of my employment in dance has been has been framed around

because of whatever of having a disability. And I've got a strange relationship with that, that I

do sometimes think, um, if I wasn't disabled, I'm not sure I'd work in dance. Huh. I'm not sure I

would have been, like, good enough, determined enough, passionate enough. I don't know, I

don't know. Okay, interesting. Um, but. Yeah. So then, um, I joined Candoco, and that's where I

met my biggest, probably collaborator. Um, Welly, do you know Welly? Yeah. Well, you know

what? I don't super know her personally, but of course, I've seen her perform a lot. I mean,

blown away by. Yeah. Yeah. Her performance. So. Welly was. Yeah. Has always been. Then

that was a really important relationship. And is Welly from a working class background? No,

that's what I. It's hilarious because I didn't think you'd say that at all. Like, I just my memory of

Welly is this sort of gorgeous, not that working class people aren't gorgeous, but do you know

how I mean? She's. She's so like like beautiful and elegant in a way that I just feel like comes

from quite a cultured background, which is hilarious because I don't think working class people

are necessarily, have a lack of culture. It's that thing about assumption, isn't it? And it's not

something Welly and I talk about. So I'm making and I think she would be she wouldn't mind

this. Yeah. Like Welly is not a posh person, right? I don't, you know. Um, but definitely, you

know, comes from grew up in a big old house in Hove. Um, mum's an artist. I mean, her

parents are just the loveliest. Um, yeah, so I wouldn't I wouldn't want to make assumptions, but

I do. Do you know what I do actually think I hadn't thought about this before. I do think there's

something about the experience of disability, particularly. I'd have to check this with Welly, but

particularly acquiring a disability that gives you more understanding about. It interrupts the

trajectory or the. And also. Welly didn't like school either. We were really linked in that, but I

think we both struggled academically. Right, right. Um, which definitely is something that brings

us close to each other. Uh-huh, uh-huh. Um, yeah. That's new. That disability thing to me is a

thought, but I think there's something in that. Uh-huh. So what about the what about, like, the

doing of the dance itself? Yeah. Okay. Throughout your life, what do you think that's had a role

to play in these moments where you feel like you appreciate that directness or, you know,

you've you've felt confident to go and study dance? That's really shifted for me. And I know I

was half joking about only feeling like I might be alright at this in my mid thirties, but I think for

a long, long time in training. I really have to be careful how I articulate this. I think I didn't, I

didn't, I probably shared a little bit of my parents feeling of like, it's not real, is it? It's not a real

job. It's not kind of. And I think that something that came up for me a lot about about not really

understanding the fundamentals of what it is to dance and understand one's body. And

actually, you know, if we're talking about mentors, then Sarah Whatley really opened that

space up for me, to go 'we understand everything through dance or body movement and

movement'. And it's. It's everything. It's not, you know, don't mean it's everything, but, you

know, it is political. It is a way of understanding how we are in the world, how other things are

in the world. And that came quite late, I think. So I did have I was kind of like. There's a lovely,

um, Wendy Houstoun quote that when Wendy was making the work on Candoco, she says,

um, 'after all, we're all just pretending' as performers. And I'm like, I like that there's certain

relief in that, that, um, but yeah, I think but then I wonder whether there's something around

imposter syndrome that made me not try hard enough, because I do. I live with that a little bit,

as an ageing dancer. I'm not even mid-career anymore. Um, I've just kind of. I could have tried

harder. Gosh. You know, I even remember Rach, being a little bit. I mean, did you know Rachel

in the GDA days? Would you have. We met doing this job. Right little firecracker of a dancer.

Yeah. Well, like like I really remember Rach watching you in, in working with Colin and just like,

oh my goodness, you know, and maybe that was a kind of signifier of feeling a connection with

you or sensing something interesting. But I can remember being really moved by the way you

moved. Wow. And then actually, I didn't language it, but I don't know if it's at the place or

Jackson's Lane, but seeing your solo with the brass band. Oh, God. Yeah, the first solo I ever

did,

called 'Carbon'. I loved that because I can remember I'd never heard anything like it. You

were using, like, literally the music of the working class. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Very unusual.

Right. That's interesting in context, but I've lost my train of thought. The experiencing and

yeah, the value in implicit in the actual. Yeah, I just think I probably yeah, that's the thing I was

saying something stopped me trying I think because I probably thought I don't really belong

here. So I can probably just go away with, um, but maybe that's about disability as well. Maybe

that's about. Yeah, but I remember I really have a clear memory of you talking about. Did you

audition for Candoco? No, shakes Head for the purpose of the podcast, but I. But in those

days, it. Because there were no disabled dancers, right. So Celeste was literally. I mean, we've

joked with Celeste and saying, actually, what I had was the longest audition had like a three

year audition because Celeste would say she just had her eye on me. And Welly was watching

little projects, and I'd done stuff with the education side of because. But I remember you being

really, like, so excited that you were finally getting a job with Candoco. I mean, it was like my

memory. It might be different, but as I saw it and experienced witnessing you, it was like a

huge ambition for you and also a huge recognition for you to say, I am a dancer. I really am a

dancer now. That's exactly what I'm trying to describe. That's exactly it. I think I didn't I didn't

really ever feel that, or believe it until you absolutely got that job and that's it. That's what your

pay cheques for, right then. Being a dancer. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I think I still probably even

in Candoco I could have tried harder, but I was young. Maybe, maybe. I think that may be like

a personality thing, but but yeah, but I feel, um, like my experience at university was that I feel

like I was quite deliberately positioning myself on the margins because I did feel different to

people and also like my living context. You know, I moved two hundred miles away from home

and, you know, I was referred to as the token northerner in the, in the house because it was a

bit of a novelty. Yeah. And I remember, like, I worked because I had to have a job and I was I

was the only one there who worked. Um, where did you work? I worked in a student bar in the

student. I worked at Burton's. I just collected jobs the whole time I worked in the postroom. So I

used to go and do sort the university posts from seven until nine and then run across to do

class. Wow. Um. And then. And then I worked at the cinema. I worked, I collected jobs, I did a

lot, and then I collected. I did jobs as well just to. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it was like. And I

remember being really proud that I came home after my first semester at university, and I had

ten pounds in the plus in my bank account. Oh bloody hell. And I felt really accomplished that. I

got through a semester and I hadn't gone into an overdraft. I had ten pounds in my bank

account and I was really proud of myself. That was really impressive. I think I was overdrawn

at the end, but I think something quite quickly shifted in the way that. So I remember working in

the bar, and I remember I remember taking food from the pass, and giving them to a, you

know, a coworker, a colleague. And I went, 'ere yar' And he went, 'ere yar' Like, you know, this.

And I think I very quickly became conscious that actually everything about me was quite like

distinct in relation to because a lot of people I was university with came from the same places,

or they or they spoke the same and they'd had similar educational experiences. And I think that

made me sort of deliberately take a little bit of a step back in the room, in the sense that I

hadn't done ballet for sixteen years. Right. You know, I wasn't I hadn't had that sort of like

formal training, and I'd done Latin American ballroom and disco as well, and that I just sort of

parked. That sort of became. Did you even reveal that to them. Not really. No. Isn't it? I mean, I

think that's that's interesting about the currency of dance training, because I'd forgotten that I

really suddenly. That's one thing that did happen at university. Everybody had done ballet.

Yeah, yeah, I did. I mean, I joke about it now, but we had I mean, she must have passed away

now. Um, we had a ballet teacher called Teresita Marsden. I did, and on the first day or the first

week, you had to be, like, put into your ballet streaming. Oh, God. And you had to do ballet. I'd

never done a ballet class. Can you imagine? I didn't know the language. I didn't have the body.

Yeah. Um, at the end, I can't remember whether it was. Whether I can't remember something

happened, but it just it it transpired that I didn't have to do ballet. So I didn't do ballet for the

whole. Which is kind of a shame now. Wow. Because I was that bad. Um. Oh, what a shame.

But I was. But then also, I was lucky because my, my teachers at Chichester were like,

Thomas Kempe, Um, Kathy Charles. So, really embedded in improvisation and and very

excellent teaching of technique. Yeah. You know, that that, um, I mean, yeah, you just said,

you know, Kathy, super lovely, gentle teacher and really open and then, you know, at

lunchtimes, you can imagine Thomas would be, like, rolling and running and jumping through

the canteen. And it's really inspiring. So it didn't matter that I wasn't doing ballet. Yeah. I mean,

I'd done like, theatrical. It's hard to describe, but where I grew up in Manchester, there was like

a collective of it was called the United Professional Teachers of Dance, and we did. So we did

like tap, ballet, modern, jazz. But it was it was. I remember going to when I was a, when I was

doing GCSE dance and I wanted to audition for the Northern School. I did, and I didn't get in.

And um, and I remember like my teacher saying, go and do some ballet classes, and I

remember going to Northern Ballet when it was in Manchester, and feeling like this was

completely not what I knew about ballet, feeling like it was completely different. And, and, you

know, and I was really insecure about it. And I was really insecure about it at my audition at

Northern School. Right. Well, I mean, because I went. It's interesting because at uni and I'm

flashing up inverted comma marks with my fingers. Um, it was a bit different to me because I

went to The Place, a conservatoire. A. it was actually really international. So all the students

there were from all over, which I think in a way removed that class, that that British class thing

out of the room because, yeah, you know, it just wasn't apparent because there were so many

different backgrounds there in the space, a bit of a colonial phenomenon, isn't it? And, I mean,

I'd never done ballet, but I went to Thamesdown in Swindon for a year, where I started

learning ballet there, and I wasn't particularly brilliant at it for sure. But I just have a, you know,

I'd just throw myself into all of it. Yeah. Um, and so and actually, I was really surprised I got into

the place. It's where I wanted to go, and I was like, over the moon that I got offered a place. I

remember actually. Um, so in Swindon, I used to live in halls of residence, and I got the, um,

the letter from. And you could tell it was from the place. It was in, like in the hallway of the

student halls. There was like these pigeon holes where you'd get your mail and open it, and I

just couldn't believe it. I ran all the way down to the studio to to show Marie McCluskey that I'd

got in. I've got in, and I couldn't believe it. Yeah. Which was very. Yeah. Sweet, actually,

because Marie amazingly. Marie, you know, I was I'd got into the foundation course and

applied to my local authority for funding. I got refused four times, appealed three times. I even

wrote to my MP and I didn't get any funding. So Marie, I auditioned and I got a scholarship and

a YTS scheme to support me to live down there because, you know, and I remember going

there like leaving home and going to Swindon on the coach, you know, with your little suitcase

and just stepping out in that way, which was so exciting. And again, like you, my, my mum, she

was like in charge in the house, just didn't want me to go. Yeah. You know, you know, because

again, of course she thought, what future has this got? Well, I think it was unimaginable. And I

think probably it's best probably my parents just thought, oh, if she is going to do it, I mean, I

think maybe they just thought university would be. Like three years. Then you get a job, or then

you get the job that you would have had. What I didn't mention actually, this is probably quite

important in terms of, um, what, you know, if we were imagining it as, again, inverted commas,

social mobility, that when my dad would have, would have been about forty six, forty seven, he,

um, retrained as a, in social work. So he went to university around the just before I did. Okay.

So I think I really benefited from, he put himself in that position, in that position, and he worked

really hard to, to do it. Um, and I think that made him start to understand the value of higher

education. And I think when you're in it, you do have a greater understanding of, it's not

necessarily about the subject you study or I don't I think, I mean, even to this day, I don't think

he'd mind me saying this because like, lots of dancers. Dance artists. My my work tends to be

quite portfolio, like. Like here today is a really good example. Like if I go to my dad and go, I'm

going up to Leeds to do a podcast. Um, his first question is always is it for Coventry? Because

he's, he's worried that I'll get in trouble or, interesting. And so then I always have to say,

everything I do is for Coventry, because whatever I do feeds back into, that's how that's how

we work as a, as a, as a working culture that the colleagues I work at Coventry will value. And

it, it connects us. But he's still in that slightly. Don't don't piss the boss off, don't get in trouble.

Yeah, yeah. Kind of mode. Yeah. Um. Yeah. Wow I mean I think. Yeah. Yes. Yeah, yeah. So

you to welcome to Coventry. Yeah. I think um. Yeah. My family all. I think there was a, not

necessarily my parents, but in the wider family. They just thought that that meant I'd get a job

on top of the pops. Oh, God. Really? Yeah. You know, and I think they've got this notion still

that like, um, you know, I did a degree in dance, so I'm just a professional dancer, you know,

there's a real, you know, there's not an understanding necessarily. I think that's that's an

interesting cultural thing because I think that's that's dominant. Like, and I don't know if you two

get it, but if I'm, if I'm like talking to anyone who doesn't work in dance and say, what do you

do? And I'll go. I mean, sometimes I don't even bother and I just go, I'm a teacher because I

can't even start the conversation. Yeah, but it often goes, oh, you're a dancer. Oh. Like strictly.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Um, or like that kind of. Does that just mean that you're good at lots of

different kinds of dance? I get that sometimes. Yeah, yeah. But it's interesting, isn't it?

Because, I mean, I kind of knew my dad would come up a lot in this discussion, but he's

probably my biggest advocate. like after after I'd graduated. And I think he he's really educated

himself. And I mean, sometimes he'll go, oh, listen to this thing on the radio about and, you

know, it will be slightly off or something. I'm like, yeah, that's not that interesting. But it's not a

million. It's not strictly it's not a million miles away from. But he genuinely is is curious and

wants to know more. And I think um like would come come and see things. I mean bless my

mum and dad. Neither of them came to lots of things and my dad would come and see me if it

was if he could get somewhere. I genuinely think my mum found that environment quite

uncomfortable. I remember her coming to see Candoco at QEH, and I just, I think she found

she found it quite uncomfortable, the kind of. What was uncomfortable like the what was on the

stage? No, I just think alien, the whole thing. If you don't go to see performances. Yeah, it's

probably quite. It can be an intimidating experience as well. But then I think, I mean, I don't

know whether I'm consciously trying to bring it back to a class thing, but I think there is

something about family, about pride, maybe about kind of, um, do you know, like like I was

saying about my dad lost his Scouse accent, and, you know, my sister was born in Liverpool,

but, um, but yeah, we we've kind of grown up with a sort of Liverpudlian ethos about us, and it

really relates to family. And it's really funny that I don't know whether you do this, but we, um,

everyone in our family is 'our'. Yeah, absolutely. It's 'our Kate'. Have you spoken to my mum

and have you spoken to my dad? Would do that, that kind of thing. And I think that, um, that,

that family thing of. I am just our Kate. So, you know, there'll be a I'll go and see our Kate do

that performance, but my mum doesn't have the kind of. Like part of the thing, I think my dad

loved coming to see dance. I think he, I mean, again, I'm massively stereotyping Scousers. My

dad's a raconteur. He, he loves to be around people and he will talk to anybody. Same with my

parents, anybody, which I really hope I've inherited. Like someone was saying to me the other

day in Peterborough, it's so it's a bit southern and nobody talks to everyone. I'm like, I do, I will

because I will just spark up a conversation with anybody that can be like, well, like your

earrings or you smell nice. Yeah, I probably say that too much. And I think I'm sure that is that

is that no nonsense thing. It's interesting. My sister in law calls me our Laura, and that's just

because she has some Liverpool friends. When she was at university and she went to visit

them, and she remembers distinctly how they all referred to each other as our this, our that.

And so when she met me and I'm a northerner, she's our Laura. You call your kids our? I don't

actually. I, I dip in and out like I will. Like I said, it was really weird. I said our Alf. That I do

sometimes, but I'm aware I'm slightly doing it because I want to. I want to really signify that

that's my feeling that he is like mine. Um, it's a very warm thing, I think. But I remember I had,

like one of my first boyfriends and, um, this is really anecdotal and, um, but I remember, um,

he he was working with someone, and he said to me he'd gone to work, and he said to me, oh,

I was at work today, he said it was interesting, and some of, my friend who I worked with was

asking me about you, and I was telling him about you, and then he just went, oh, it's our Laura.

Yeah. And it was because he knew my brother. Yeah. And, um, this guy who he was working

with knew my brother, and he was like, oh, you're talking about our Laura. Because my brother

just inherently, of course. It's our Laura It's our Laura. I was just I'm just our Laura. Yeah, yeah,

I often, I often come out with with. I'll say things I didn't even know were like I didn't know they

were Liverpudlian. And I'll say them now. And people go what, like, a saying or something. But

do you know egg banjo's Liverpudlian? I never know, do you know an egg banjo? It's a fried

egg sandwich. An egg banjo? Banjo. I don't know that one. I think it's northern. Maybe my dad

used to say. Well, I'll go at the foot of our stairs. Yeah, I got that. Yeah. And no one else gets

that. I don't know, I get that. Did you get that? I thought was a brilliant one. My dad didn't say it,

but it was something. I heard it from another Scouser when, um, when they said, oh, what is it?

I'm going to get it wrong. It's going. I saw my arse. Do you know that one? Do you know it? But

it's so lovely in dance terms that literally that kind of. Ah yeah. Sensation of. My mum really

respected and valued education. For sure. For sure, for sure. So she was over the moon when

I'd sort of switch to a degree course, because I actually started on the certificate course at The

Place because I didn't even know what a degree was. Do you know how I mean? I just never

had been taught that, actually. And I switched in the second year because all my mates were

on the degree course and I wanted to join in with the, what I thought looked like extra classes

to me. I'll have that, thank you very much. Um, and unfortunately, my mum died soon after I

graduated, so she never made it to my graduation. But I suppose, like my biggest regret then,

is that my mum wasn't alive to see me get my PhD, and that because that would have, like the

education, that would have made, made her up so much, it would have just been the best thing

ever, ever, ever, ever. Yeah. For for that to happen to me. And so it was a little sad that actually

both my parents weren't alive when I got that, and but it felt. And interestingly enough, doing

that PhD, which I probably wouldn't think I could have done if I hadn't talked to Sarah Whatley.

Yeah. Me too. She's a big influence on that and me believing that I could do, but also even

having a wobble halfway through thinking, well, I'm not, I'm going to fail because I'm working

class, so I don't belong here. Yeah, this isn't me. But so it was extraordinary to. To, to achieve

that actually I would say in my life in terms of now, um, bringing along with me my class

luggage. Yeah, in a way. Yeah. And not letting that stop me. Yeah. Yeah. It's something I talk

about a lot with my PhD students Yeah. That, um, is is how do you how do you resist that, that,

um, set voice in writing a PhD. How do you write from a from a place of. So you don't have that

'oh, I'm not, I'm not, this is not me'. I don't write in a PhD way. And Sarah was amazing at that,

and just going, actually, what's your voice? Yes. And what, how do you want to write it? How

do you want to be? I remember resisting that, um, notion of 'I' for a long time and my

supervisor saying, yeah, but you're writing this, this is you. But somehow that that felt like it

was almost this metaphor for it being, you know, other than me. Right? You know, like, almost

like, well, if I write it like this, then people aren't going to suss me out. Yeah. You know, and

those conversations of like, oh, you know, do you think I can do this? And my supervisor

saying, well, we did. Yeah. And you know. Yeah. Yeah. Thinking, you know, believing that

you've got the tools to do it and that your voice is, has got, you know, you've got something to

say. To say. Yeah, but I also think it for me. And it might be different for you too, that we've got

the tools, but I think, I don't know. I think there was this like relationship between my class

identity having an impact on my level of intelligence, and was I even intelligent enough to do

this because of the circumstances that I grew up in? And of course, on the, you know, with

some distance you go, don't be stupid. Yeah, don't be stupid. But no pun intended there. But to

me, I remember feeling like that and then having sort of like, oh my God, I'm surprised I'm

feeling like that. And then thinking, I can't be the only working class person who feels like this.

Yeah. And that became interesting for me. It always shows up for me and I, I feel like I know

this is implied. I know I do feel really comfortable in that. I feel like I'm at home in dance. But I

think that's taken me a long time, but I still, where I feel it shows up for me is when when, um,

when I'm next to someone and there's absolute assumptions that I would have had the same

experience, that I would have experienced the same things as them, because we're now where

we're at. I didn't see a fucking avocado till I was twenty five, twenty six. And I know that

probably lots of people did. But, you know, I grew up in a house where fruit was apples and

sometimes oranges, and came in a tin, maybe did have tin fruit, but but also, you know, we

didn't. I mean, I think that's probably generally the seventies. I don't think many people were

eating mango and papaya then, but but I the reason I'm because I think often that's where it

shows up for me that someone would just go, yeah, when I was this age, we did this or we

would we um, We would have I can't, I can't now think of examples. Maybe one will come to

me and I think, oh yeah, no, I didn't, you know, I was the first person well, second after my dad,

I was the first person in my family to go to university and it wasn't assumed. And then when

you're around people who absolutely everybody went to university from generations and

generations ago. Yeah. Um, yeah, that's that's I think, where I notice it. Yeah. And I think it's

interesting for me also to acknowledge that despite that we did we we could do what we did did

because we had inspiring teachers or animateurs, and free libraries and uh, welcoming art

galleries. And there was and we didn't have the internet then. Yeah. Or but but somehow we, I

was able to access art and culture in a way that when I wasn't sort of born into art culture. It's

weird, isn't it? It's like, yeah, I think I think, you know, this is obviously a lovely, joyful

conversation to be with you both, but I think you've you've trodden on something there, really

sad. Yeah. And really real. Because it's gone. Because it's gone. Yeah. And actually there's

something, isn't there, about, we're going to get to a place where the only people who will be

able to work, study and work in dance are actually the really most privileged people.

Financially privileged, culturally privileged. We're not going to have those accidental coming

across a brilliant dance teacher who sees something. Yeah, yeah. And we're not going to be

able to afford to, but. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, hence why we're doing this in a way. Yeah,

yeah yeah, yeah for sure. I guess it's thinking about maybe, agency or, identity or like feeling

empowered through a physicality or an embodied confidence to enter certain spaces or, or

institutions or, you know. Yeah, I don't know. In a sense it might be. I mean, I'm doing that thing

of trying to 'what's your hypothesis here?' And do I, do I feel more agency or more

empowerment? That's tricky. Certainly dance, studying, dance, doing dance, being in dance

has given me multiple opportunities. In fact, I sort of would say I'm not. Yeah, I don't know what

I would have done. Right. And I know I said earlier about not being not having that hunger and

always feeling a bit guilty about that, but, um, but I think that's, that's about not being hungry

for something that you think is not achievable. Yeah. Okay. But do I there's something and I

think, I mean, I guess it'd be interesting to see how others in this series respond to this,

because I think it's really difficult to untangle a lifelong lived experience of physical disability

and working class identity, because it's almost like perhaps what gets given in one. Like, I may

have this sense of like being in my body more, but that kind of gets, not cancelled, but there's

something that contradicts that about existing in a body that doesn't fit in, and particularly in

dance. I mean, we know we love dance, but historically, dance does not invite in the non

normative body. Yeah. Um, and and certainly the time when we started our training and, you

know, when I say non-normative, I mean, like, there's a lot of us in that, but in that bracket, I

just think the ideal dance body is a thing, isn't it? We know that. Yeah, yeah. Less so now. I do

agree with that. Yeah. Um, but it's got baggage. Yeah, but I do. I think I'm trying to. I'm trying to

because. So actually, like, if I think about my dance training and this is I think probably where

that joke comes from is I didn't really get into it, realize that I might be all right at it until I was

older. And part of that is because, like lots of us, the early parts of my dance training were, um,

I've forgotten the word for it, um, largely technical, largely. What is it like taught really? Like

codified, codified, codified techniques? Really quite didactic. Maybe historical historical

techniques like. Yeah, we didn't do I mean, I think Kathy might have taught Graham or

Cunningham, but she'll probably be cross if I said this, but brilliantly, it wasn't billed as that. It

was just Kathy's class. Um. Which was really important. Now, looking back, um, so I didn't.

And I was never good at technique. I was never good. I've never been good at, um, recalling

and remembering material and repeating it. What I am good at is, um, and what I love is

improvisation and creating work through improvisation and also being in contact with other

people. And that I think possibly there's something there about the experience of growing up

working class that, that means that I'm, I'm like. My partner says, oh, this is terrible, it's not it's

not a good thing to say, probably. He says you can tell a working class person by the way they

hug and the way they hold a baby. I mean, at first I thought you were talking about. So,

actually, he's right. So what's the working class way of holding a baby? Totally confident. Yeah.

Not even, making a cup of tea. Yeah, baby under your arm. Yeah. And I think there's

something in that. In the way that I have worked in dance. That means I find it. Oh, this is

going to sound so cheesy. That's where I get my joy in dance. And that's where I've my

absolute kind of 'fuck, I love this' comes in improvisation. It comes in those moments of

unplanned work and being in in a space with other people moving, being in connection. That's

that's when I absolutely get that feeling of like, A. I love this and B. I can do it, I'm good at it.

Yeah. Um, and I know kind of this your focus more on kind of the doing of dance. But I also I

feel really strongly that my, my experience growing up is the thing that makes me a good

holder of space in dance. Like, I wouldn't say I'm a great teacher, but I know I'm a good

facilitator of space because I care about everybody in it. My my my beginning point is, like I

said, right at the start is who's in this space? Yeah. And I just. And who's not in this space?

And I think genuinely, there's something about, I'm coming out with loads of dodgy statements.

There is something I think about care. And I'm not saying that non working class people don't

care, but I think there's something about um, but I think there's a heightened sense of equality

and justice maybe. And again I think yeah, it's not to say that that doesn't exist in other spaces,

but I think there's something about an awareness and an empathy for people coming into the

space with very different experience and very different backgrounds. And I don't know, I think

that's often, um, because they've had to think of those things themselves growing up anyway,

maybe. Well, yeah, maybe. It's hard to articulate, I guess. Yeah. But I guess I'm thinking about,

um, like, expectations or sometimes like the pressure on, like, students, for example, and

thinking about, upholding standards or appearing to be a certain way. And actually when that,

when that doesn't present itself as being in an environment where that's not acceptable or, you

know, and I think actually I feel like I'm quite astute. Well, I have an acute awareness, if you

like, of thinking that some, you know, what is the position that this person is coming from and

what is causing them to not be able to meet these, you know, in that sort of sense, like

because it feeling like there's a recognition that the world isn't the same for everybody. And.

Exactly that. Yeah. That's just reminded me, though, interestingly enough. So Laura and I have

known each other for like ten years, fifteen years, fifteen years, fifteen or something. So I was

here before Laura joined the, um, um, faculty. Um, and what was interesting, when Laura

joined and I hadn't done my PhD, but I really looked up to Laura because she had a PhD and I

was like, oh my God, she must be super, super clever. And she is obviously. But then you got

to know. Yeah. And then and then she realized I was common. But then it was great when I

found out she was common, because actually, I know that I said earlier that Sarah Whatley

was instrumental in me even, like signing up to do the bloody PhD, and she gave me mine.

Yeah. And she gave me mine, actually, she ended up being one of my examiners. But actually,

I felt like Laura believed in me as well. And there were times when also, I really I don't know if

I've ever even articulated this to you. We're going to cry now. We're going to cry. But so Laura

was so encouraging and came in the studio with me to and do a bit of work with me to help me

be able to begin. And I, you know, I really thought, Laura knows how to do it. And, I'm going to

listen to her. Yeah. And your encouragement as well was totally instrumental. And then sort of

even learning that, oh, we're from the same background then even more lifted up by that.

Yeah. And it was really lovely that I could be super supported and, yeah, um, given

encouragement by someone who was ten years younger than me as well, which I thought was

so impressive that Laura had arrived and her practice was writing about dancing. And my,

when I started my PhD, my practice was wasn't writing about dancing. So I felt like totally like a

rookie in that. Yeah, but Laura going, no, you know how to do this. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. It's that

sort of that solidarity thing, isn't it? But I think like from my experience that actually you become

allies because like maybe for other maybe for people who do come from an experience where

education is really familiar, higher education is a familiar context in the family. There's there's

there's allyship there. Yeah. But I think it's also some way that you find it for yourself. And

maybe it comes to that, that radar again that, you know, there's a. But maybe that's also comes

from our practice that we share a bodily understanding of movement and, as knowledge. Yeah,

absolutely. And I think also for me, when I did work here, what I, what was really important to

me was being a cheerleader for actually a student body in the early days of the course that

was predominantly working class and like the first person in that family to go to uni just

because of the university that we were. I think it started changing in maybe. Well, I don't know.

I think that's probably still the case, isn't it? And I felt like, you know, in many tutorials over the

sixteen years going, no, you can do this. You are smart enough because we think you're smart

enough. That's why we gave you a place and, you know, yeah, it's a combination of factors,

isn't it? I think it's also about understanding that, I don't know. I guess what was funny, I was

just listening to you then, Laura, and just the definitely something I had an awareness of about

economic things and training that that there was certainly people there have been people

around me that could, for example, be bailed out. You know, there was a safety net. And I think

that's the thing. And I've got to be honest, you know, that's where I'm sort of in that middle

ground, I suppose growing up there wasn't a safety net. Um, and, and I suppose actually

because of my dad's shift into, into higher education, that became more and also my dad and I

don't know if this I think this is a little bit of a working class thing. My dad's a massive, like a

real saver. Like his thing is just like you don't spend, you know, he's really, um, where am I

going with this? Um, but I do, I think precarity, that's what I say. I think there's something about

precarity and working class identity and experience that. What is it to be in dance? This, this

actually, you know, it's precarity within precarity because we are not a solid sector. Yeah,

actually, or a high earning sector. We're not high earning. We're not stable. We're we're largely

freelance. We're we're prone to kind of cuts. We're we're at the hands of whatever

governments. You know, that's, I know everyone is, but dance particularly educationally and

professionally. And I think if you are, if you have precarity in your life like you can't not work or

you can't, I'm not saying that. I mean, I don't know what I'm imagining that this, like, super posh

person in dance who can afford to not have a job. I don't know, but. Yeah, but but there's

something that has been. Yeah. You know, people that, I don't want to, it's not about

demonizing them. It's just like fucking lucky them actually as well, that they don't have to worry

about a roof over their head if they don't get that dance job or whatever, and it's like, all right,

it's not their fault in a way that they have that. But I think you're absolutely right. This, you

know, in such a precarious profession, not having a safety net makes it even more precarious

as well. Yeah. And I think yeah. And that has absolutely affected me over the years and

actually made me make certain choices in my career. Oh, God. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I

consider myself extremely lucky to work for C-DaRe because actually I, because of Sarah,

popped up a few times that there's there's a massive understanding that that other stuff will. So

I do but yeah you're right. I absolutely wanted that job for security and just kind of. Yeah. Yeah.

Well so it's interesting because I think like part of so, you know, this part of the title of this

podcast series is about levelling up. Yeah. And I think it's interesting actually on the back of

that thinking about, you know, this idea of have we levelled up? And I think it's interesting. It's

like almost like on the surface that there's probably this, 'yeah'. You can say yeah. But then it

feels also really evident, like these are the insecurity and the stress of like you say, not having

that like feeling that precarity and insecurity. Yeah. And it is. But is that also because of class

or is it because of the sector that we're in? I think you're making me think, and I'm sorry if I if

this comes out a bit wrong. But one of the things that again, I feel like I need to reiterate, I love

dance. But I think, um, maybe this is societal, but I think we feel it in dance because we are

fundamentally a kind of performative sector that I worry a little bit, that what we tend to do is

these things have their moments like disability, inclusion, marginalization, class identity, that

they become a little zeitgeist. Exactly. But also when we over theorize about these things and

I'm not I'm not referring to this podcast. I think actually the question around levelling up is

crucial here, because I think what what can happen and know if I don't talk about class, if I talk

about disability, I think what historically has happened, it's almost become a subject, a choice,

like, oh, we do a module in inclusive rather than an embedded understanding. And I think

sometimes when these things get borrowed by the dominant voices in our sector, we lose sight

of things like precarity. We lose sight of actually who really isn't getting access. What is what

actually is happening? And that's what, you know, when we were talking in the last section,

that genuinely worries me, that I think the days are gone where you could be a working class

kid who likes to dance. Yeah. And get an opportunity to. Especially a working class kid who

likes to dance contemporary dance. Thanks for listening to this episode of the Dancing Class

podcast. We hope that you enjoy the rest of the series. Please do keep in touch with us via

socials. Hashtag levelling Up dance on Instagram and via the web page where you can also

contact the project team.