Shownotes
ABOUT CHRIS STEPHENSON
Chris is Chief Marketing Officer for PHD Worldwide His role is to globally amplify PHD’s vision of enabling marketers to ‘Make the Leap’ – a call to action and reference to how the agency prioritises creativity to drive disproportionate growth for marketers, backed by its proprietary planning platform Omni Studio.
Chris is a passionate believer in the mutual benefits of brands engaging people in positive and constructive ways; he believes that considered, creative, integrated, innovative communications create value for audiences, brands and businesses; that reach is not an objective; and that hope is not a strategy.
His background is in strategic media and communications planning, and has delivered thought leadership for a range of clients across both Europe and APAC, working on global and regional projects for brands including Singapore Airlines, Unilever, ANZ Bank, Google, Coca-Cola, Adidas, Ferrero, HSBC, Ebay, LG and The Guardian.
An industry thought-leader, Chris has co-written three books on the future of the media industry and the impact of machine learning on marketing. A regular and respected commentator on the communications industry, he has presented on stages including Cannes, Spikes Asia and Mumbrella360.
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Transcripts
(upbeat music)
Speaker:- Hi there, my name is Chris Stephenson.
Speaker:I'm lucky enough to be the global CMO for PHD Media Network,
Speaker:and it's great to be talking to you today.
Speaker:- Chris, thank you so much for being here today.
Speaker:- An absolute pleasure, looking forward to the conversation.
Speaker:- Yeah.
Speaker:So, I've been reading some business books, Chris.
Speaker:I recently read Rishad Tobaccowala's book.
Speaker:He was also on the podcast.
Speaker:He talks about staying human in the age of data.
Speaker:I just went through the PHD book, "Shift,"
Speaker:and you guys talk about putting people
Speaker:and humanity back in the driver's seat.
Speaker:It's very interesting
Speaker:that these two books are coming out at the same time,
Speaker:exploring what I think are very similar themes.
Speaker:I wanted to ask you this, Chris.
Speaker:Who or what has been in the driver's seat up until now,
Speaker:and why is it important to put people back in there?
Speaker:- Hmm, it's a really, really great question.
Speaker:I mean, I think we would say,
Speaker:and the reason we wrote the book,
Speaker:the reason we wrote "Shift"
Speaker:was very much that our observation
Speaker:was that during the long decade,
Speaker:technology had been in the driving seat.
Speaker:So, what's the long decade?
Speaker:The long decade was this period from 2007,
Speaker:really through to about 2020,
Speaker:where we saw these incredible changes
Speaker:to the marketing ecosystem driven by technology adoption,
Speaker:platform development, data-driven capabilities.
Speaker:We saw these phenomenal proliferation of capabilities
Speaker:to the marketers toolkit throughout that long decade,
Speaker:2007 through 2020.
Speaker:However, what also happened during that long decade
Speaker:was a decrease in marketing effectiveness.
Speaker:So, what's going on there?
Speaker:We've got this 13-year period where we had more data,
Speaker:we had more tech, we had more capabilities,
Speaker:we had more options and formats
Speaker:and ways and places and spaces to engage with people,
Speaker:but marketing effectiveness declined.
Speaker:And we really wanted to understand that,
Speaker:and that's what's inherent to "Shift."
Speaker:And our intention really in the book
Speaker:is that what was in the driving seat was the tech,
Speaker:the platforms.
Speaker:And they brought huge benefits, huge benefits to the system,
Speaker:but we were missing the human part of the equation.
Speaker:And that considered creative, lateral human element
Speaker:is what we're now seeing brought to bear.
Speaker:And we're seeing actually,
Speaker:we think the tides turned on this,
Speaker:and "Shift" talks to this.
Speaker:The tides turned,
Speaker:and we think we're beginning to see
Speaker:an improvement in marketing effectiveness.
Speaker:And it's because there's been a realization and a wake up
Speaker:that marketing's had a bit of a midlife crisis,
Speaker:and marketing is emerging from this crisis
Speaker:with a much clearer view
Speaker:that the tech and the data has got to work for the business.
Speaker:It's got to work for the brand.
Speaker:It's got to work for the marketers,
Speaker:rather than businesses, brands,
Speaker:and marketers working for the tech.
Speaker:- That's very interesting.
Speaker:Follow up to that, you referred this phrase,
Speaker:"paralysis of analysis" when it comes to data.
Speaker:'Cause there's so much of it,
Speaker:and sometimes marketers can get stuck
Speaker:spending all their time looking at data
Speaker:and figuring out what it means, what it doesn't mean,
Speaker:and flipping it upside down on its head,
Speaker:is there such a thing as too much data,
Speaker:or are we just using it wrong?
Speaker:What are your thoughts on all of this?
Speaker:- It's a really interesting question.
Speaker:I mean, "Is there too much data?"
Speaker:is a bit like saying, you know, "Is there too much oxygen?"
Speaker:It's like, we live in a world that is rich with data,
Speaker:and you may as well worry about the sun going down.
Speaker:We are living in an incredibly rich world of data.
Speaker:What we often come across,
Speaker:and we talk about this a lot at PHD,
Speaker:is there's not too much data,
Speaker:what there is very often, too many KPIs.
Speaker:So what you tend to get is all this data tends to produce
Speaker:a proliferation of objectives,
Speaker:a proliferation of measurement.
Speaker:So, for us it's not a data problem,
Speaker:it's a measurement problem.
Speaker:The thing that we say a lot,
Speaker:"If you've got more than three KPIs, you don't have a KPI."
Speaker:As soon as you're measuring, monitoring, optimizing,
Speaker:thinking about considering more than three things
Speaker:from a measurement perspective,
Speaker:then you haven't got enough eyes on one ball.
Speaker:You're not paying enough attention to enough
Speaker:so that it's going to make a difference.
Speaker:So, no, we would say there's not too much data.
Speaker:We would say very often we come across situations
Speaker:where there are too many KPIs,
Speaker:too many things being measured.
Speaker:And we work really hard with marketers
Speaker:to help rationalize those
Speaker:to make sure that whatever data you've got,
Speaker:and all the data that you've got to bear,
Speaker:all of that data is being brought to bear
Speaker:on fewer, more focused KPIs
Speaker:that will make a genuine difference
Speaker:to what it is that you're trying to achieve.
Speaker:- That is brilliant.
Speaker:Thank you so much for sharing that.
Speaker:Web 3.0, been a huge topic of conversation on this podcast,
Speaker:and probably everywhere else, you know?
Speaker:What's the role,
Speaker:what's the place of these new tools and technologies?
Speaker:We have Blockchain, NFTs, Metaverse, and so on.
Speaker:What's the role of all of these in reaching new markets,
Speaker:achieving goals and objectives?
Speaker:- I agree with you.
Speaker:I mean, I've been working in media planning and strategy
Speaker:and comms thinking 20 years.
Speaker:I've not seen anything like this in 20 years.
Speaker:The speed and pace and breadth
Speaker:with which the Metaverse and Web3 has kind of emerged
Speaker:on the marketing agenda.
Speaker:It's not new, it's been around for a while,
Speaker:but the speed in the last six months
Speaker:with which it has proliferated, it's genuinely surprised me.
Speaker:It really has.
Speaker:And I think there's an opportunity here
Speaker:for us to learn perhaps from a bit of hindsight on Web2.
Speaker:So, if we look at Web3 in the context of Web2 and Web1,
Speaker:and I think everyone listening to this podcast
Speaker:will understand that Web1 was the read web,
Speaker:Web2 was the read-write web,
Speaker:and Web 3 is going to be the read-write-own web, effectively.
Speaker:I'm guessing most of your listeners are across that.
Speaker:So, we think that context is valuable.
Speaker:And given that, let's look at Web3
Speaker:through a context of Web2.
Speaker:In hindsight, in retrospect,
Speaker:with that beautiful glorious benefit of hindsight,
Speaker:Web2 was an amazing party
Speaker:if you were in high consideration categories.
Speaker:If you were in a category with long consideration cycles,
Speaker:with a lot of research, lots of information,
Speaker:where you perhaps had an existing relationship
Speaker:with customers, you had a big first party data set,
Speaker:you had a lot of data to bring to bear,
Speaker:Web2 was a brilliant party, it was a great party to be at.
Speaker:It wasn't necessarily a party for every category to be at.
Speaker:And I think we've seen a lot of pretty high profile brands,
Speaker:who I won't name,
Speaker:but we have seen some pretty high profile brands say,
Speaker:"Perhaps we got a little ahead of ourselves
Speaker:on the niche targeting, the micro programmatic capabilities,
Speaker:the retargeting potential."
Speaker:We've seen some high profile brands pull back from that.
Speaker:And I think when the history of the web is written,
Speaker:I think what will write this chapter,
Speaker:I think that the Web2 was a brilliant party
Speaker:if you were high consideration.
Speaker:If you weren't high consideration,
Speaker:perhaps it wasn't necessarily a party
Speaker:you should have been at
Speaker:unless you had a great reason to be there.
Speaker:So, given that lens, what kind of party is Web3?
Speaker:Which brands are naturally going to have fun
Speaker:and have a great time at the Web3 party?
Speaker:The great brands and categories
Speaker:that are going to have fun in the Web3 party
Speaker:are high-interest brands, the high-interest categories.
Speaker:If you're in brands and categories
Speaker:that people are waiting for the next thing,
Speaker:that lean into, that are interested in,
Speaker:if you're in brands and categories
Speaker:that make things that people want to own and have
Speaker:and share and talk about and want,
Speaker:then Web3 is this amazing playpen
Speaker:where you can create assets and make assets
Speaker:and sell assets and make a lot of money from things.
Speaker:And you can create art, you can collaborate,
Speaker:you can play, and you can really get deep
Speaker:and empower and embed and connect with communities.
Speaker:The danger we've got, I think,
Speaker:from an industry perspective
Speaker:is that we tend to get excited about the next big thing,
Speaker:and we tend to think
Speaker:that that next big thing applies to everyone,
Speaker:to every brand, every category.
Speaker:And if you are not at that party,
Speaker:then you're just not with it, and you are missing out.
Speaker:So, I think we've got to bring
Speaker:a bit more critical thinking to Web3.
Speaker:If Web2 was a party for those categories
Speaker:with really high consideration
Speaker:where we think Web3 is a party
Speaker:for those brands and categories with high-interest,
Speaker:that's not to say, if you're from a low interest category
Speaker:or a low interest brand, you can't crash the party.
Speaker:You can absolutely crash the party,
Speaker:but if you're going to crash the party,
Speaker:you've got to be amazing.
Speaker:You've got to be entertaining.
Speaker:You've got to be super crazy, awesome,
Speaker:and you've got to bring something to the party
Speaker:that isn't necessarily there,
Speaker:which of course means creativity, innovation,
Speaker:which is another reason why we think
Speaker:that actually humans are now much more in the driving seat.
Speaker:Back to your initial question.
Speaker:We think that tech isn't going to get us through Web3.
Speaker:The Web3 is of communities,
Speaker:and it's of passions, and it's of ownership.
Speaker:And it is the connection and the tech and the retargeting
Speaker:and whatever places the cookie
Speaker:is not going to get us through that.
Speaker:Human connection, intuition, and creativity and passion
Speaker:is what's going to get brands through Web3.
Speaker:So, a brilliant party to be at if you're high-interest.
Speaker:If you're not, go, but be amazing when you crash the party.
Speaker:- That's wonderful.
Speaker:I hope I get invited to the party.
Speaker:I hope I don't have to crash it myself.
Speaker:- I hope so too. I hope we all will.
Speaker:I hope we're all interesting enough to be at the Web3 party.
Speaker:I can only hope. - Exactly, yes. (chuckles)
Speaker:Chris, you have the unique perspective
Speaker:of having a global position for PHD.
Speaker:You have a global view now with your clients,
Speaker:with your agency.
Speaker:You come from a regional lens, a local lens previous,
Speaker:I'm hoping you can share maybe some regional differences
Speaker:or similarities that you're seeing in various markets
Speaker:that maybe might surprise some of our listeners.
Speaker:- Yeah, it is a very interesting question.
Speaker:And certainly, as I've moved from domestic planning
Speaker:in the UK, then Australia,
Speaker:regional in APAC or Singapore, and now global,
Speaker:I've absolutely seen differences.
Speaker:But for me, I think what I've observed
Speaker:is the global trends and pendulums
Speaker:rather than individual market differences.
Speaker:So, what I mean by that
Speaker:is that we definitely went through this big pendulum swing
Speaker:towards globalization, towards global brands,
Speaker:towards big iconic global,
Speaker:but of course, global brands are still there.
Speaker:But I think what we've definitely seen in recent years
Speaker:is the pendulum swing back.
Speaker:And we've seen a real proliferation of local brands
Speaker:with real local cultural insight and cultural relevance.
Speaker:We've really seen those tick up.
Speaker:And I think that the pendulum will swing back.
Speaker:But I think we're definitely at a phase
Speaker:where the pendulum is well and truly swinging
Speaker:towards those brands that have got real local resonance
Speaker:and real local insight at a market level.
Speaker:And we're seeing this real amazing proliferation
Speaker:of different market cultures,
Speaker:and the brands that thrive within those
Speaker:really come to the fall.
Speaker:I think what I have seen, though,
Speaker:it's not market based,
Speaker:but I've noticed in different markets where I've worked,
Speaker:that I hope none of your listeners
Speaker:will take this the wrong way,
Speaker:but I do think that most marketers are fundamentally insane
Speaker:(Karim laughing)
Speaker:in the sense that most marketers
Speaker:I've come across quite widely,
Speaker:but most marketers that I've encountered with,
Speaker:they want to completely contradict me things
Speaker:at the same time.
Speaker:They want to think new things, blue sky,
Speaker:create, innovate, break boundaries, break conventions,
Speaker:be challengers, do things that no one's ever done before,
Speaker:ensure they want to be famous.
Speaker:However, marketers also want to make the numbers,
Speaker:drive the results, make sure the board gets value
Speaker:you make sure shareholders get value,
Speaker:you make sure reporting is in play, measurement's in play,
Speaker:everything works and ticks the boxes.
Speaker:So in short, they don't want to get fired.
Speaker:And that marketing impulse,
Speaker:those impulses that will make a market or get famous
Speaker:are often very different impulses
Speaker:to ones that will make them not get fired.
Speaker:What's fascinating to me,
Speaker:and when I love connecting with, especially now,
Speaker:when marketing is in such flux, what I'm really interested,
Speaker:and why I love exploring with market
Speaker:is how they balance those things.
Speaker:How do marketers get famous, and how do they not get fired?
Speaker:And I've seen that done differently in different markets.
Speaker:Some markets generally will come from a place of creativity,
Speaker:breaking boundaries, challenger thinking,
Speaker:and think, "Well, how do we sell that to a place of safety?"
Speaker:Other markets, to make a generalization,
Speaker:might start from a position of wealth or safety.
Speaker:How do we not get fired?
Speaker:How do we get everything in play?
Speaker:And then how do we build some creativity into that?
Speaker:And I don't think either was wrong,
Speaker:but I think it's fascinating for me,
Speaker:over working in markets and in regions and globally,
Speaker:how different marketers, different markets,
Speaker:different categories will balance
Speaker:those potentially contradictory things
Speaker:and square the circle on those.
Speaker:I find it fascinating.
Speaker:And I may know
Speaker:of the way marketers are able to balance those
Speaker:and really keep them in play and generate growth
Speaker:by having both those things together.
Speaker:I find it genuinely fascinating.
Speaker:- Yeah. Wow, that's a fascinating answer.
Speaker:I wasn't expecting that one.
Speaker:Thank you, Chris, for sharing that.
Speaker:Final question for you today, Chris,
Speaker:what's next in advertising and marketing?
Speaker:Is it the technology? Is it new media?
Speaker:Is there a new Facebook killer?
Speaker:What's next, and maybe what should we be preparing for?
Speaker:- It's a really great question.
Speaker:I think, what was it someone said?
Speaker:Someone said, "Prediction is really difficult,
Speaker:especially when it's about the future."
Speaker:I'm stealing that from- (Karim laughs)
Speaker:I'm stealing that from someone.
Speaker:Well, your listeners will probably tell you
Speaker:where that's from.
Speaker:I remember that.
Speaker:So, yeah, prediction is difficult,
Speaker:especially when it's forward-looking.
Speaker:I think there's one thing that we talk too a lot in PHD,
Speaker:and we talk too a lot of it in the book.
Speaker:And obviously, if you want to more about "Shift,"
Speaker:you can visit shiftbyphd.com,
Speaker:and then there's loads of information about the book there
Speaker:if you want to find out more.
Speaker:But one of the things we really talk too
Speaker:when we look ahead in that is decentralization.
Speaker:We are entering an age of decentralization.
Speaker:And the big thing that marketers
Speaker:are going to have to contend with over the coming decade
Speaker:is one of the decentralization of marketing.
Speaker:That's going to impact environments.
Speaker:It's going to impact how we connect with people.
Speaker:Because who owns the environments,
Speaker:who owns the platforms is fundamentally changing
Speaker:as we get into a Web3 world.
Speaker:The monopolistic, the oligopolistic nature
Speaker:of the Web2 walled gardens,
Speaker:I don't need to say who they are, right?
Speaker:Those big monopolistic,
Speaker:oligopolies that existed in the digital world in Web2,
Speaker:we're going to see those decentralized.
Speaker:And we're going to have a plethora of tiny walled gardens
Speaker:around communities, around individuals,
Speaker:around platforms, around spaces.
Speaker:And they'll be interoperable.
Speaker:So, what marketers are going to have to deal with
Speaker:is how they deal with that decentralization of influence,
Speaker:how they deal with that decentralization of reach,
Speaker:how they deal with that decentralization of engagement.
Speaker:And how do marketers navigate the new rules
Speaker:of reaching and engaging decentralized audiences,
Speaker:decentralized communities, in a way that is scalable,
Speaker:I think, is probably going to be the challenge
Speaker:of marketing in the next decade.
Speaker:- Chris, thank you so much for your time.
Speaker:This has been a fascinating conversation.
Speaker:- An absolute pleasure.
Speaker:Thanks so much for having me. I really enjoyed it.
Speaker:And yeah, I loved the conversation.
Speaker:Thanks so much for having me on the pod.
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