Summary

On January 4 , Elizabeth Holmes, the founder and CEO of the blood testing company Theranos, was found guilty of defrauding her investors. Listen to Tyler Shultz—one of the principle whistleblowers—reflect on the trial and verdict, sharing a perspective that only he can.

About Our Guest

Tyler Shultz graduated from Stanford with a Biology degree and entered the national scene when he blew the whistle at Theranos. He was also a source for a series of Wall Street Journal articles exposing Theranos’ dubious blood-testing practices. Information Tyler provided was used in the recent trial finding Elizabeth Holmes guilty of defrauding investors.

Useful Links

• A timeline of the Elizabeth Holmes trial
• Thicker than Water is Tyler's Audible Original where he tells his story, first-hand. There's no better way to get his unique perspective on all that happened.
• Bad Blood, this book features Tyler Schultz and the Theranos scandal. Penned by John Carreyrou, the original author of the Wall Street Journal articles.

Pleasant Pictures Music

Join the Pleasant Pictures Music Club to get unlimited access to high-quality, royalty-free music for all of your projects. Use the discount code HOWTOHELP15 for 15% off your first year.

Sponsor

To get help developing ethical skills in your organization, visit meritleadership.com.

It was a good interview.

And I hear that all the time.

In fact, I just had a student in my office today.

She had listened to season one, and that was part of why she

decided to apply for our master's of public administration program.

And I know that was like the best thing I could have heard.

But she specifically said that the episode with you is one of her favorites.

Oh, awesome.

That's so good to hear.

Thanks for sharing that.

Hi, I'm Aaron Miller.

And this is How to Help, a podcast about having a life and career

of meaning virtue and impact.

This is a special bonus episode for season one.

Tyler Shultz reflects on the Elizabeth Holmes trial and verdict.

How to Help is sponsored by Merit Leadership, home of the

Business Ethics Field Guide.

Just two weeks ago on January 4th, Elizabeth Holmes, the founder and CEO

of the blood testing company Theranos was found guilty of defrauding her

investors out of almost a billion dollars.

29 witnesses testified for the prosecution over the course of 11 weeks.

Jurors heard from investors who were lied to, patients who got

flawed test results, and employees who tried to raise the alarm.

Day after day revealed devastating details, like how Holmes added the

Pfizer logo to lab reports and gave investors financial projections that

were riddled with false numbers.

The seven days of defense testimony from Holmes herself, weren't enough for her

to escape guilty verdicts on four of the 11 counts that were brought against her.

It was a long road to reach this point.

Holmes founded Theranos way back in 2004, the Wall Street Journal article

by John Carreyrou, revealing the first details of fraud was published in 2015.

The guilty verdicts were the culmination of a months- long

trial and charges that she was indicted for almost four years ago.

But this was also a long road for Tyler Shultz, one of the three

principle whistleblowers along with Erika Cheung and Adam Rosendorff.

Back in episode four of this podcast, Tyler shared how difficult

life became because he revealed damning details to the press.

He was bombarded with legal filings and followed by private investigators.

It was a long, lonely time for him.

Well, now we get to hear from Tyler again.

But this time without the cloud of uncertainty from the pending trial.

I'm excited to share his thoughts and insights, not just because he was a

potential witness, but also because he was a central figure in this sad saga

that is now finally drawing to a close.

Before I share the interview, I do want to let you know that we're hard

at work on season two of How to Help.

I have an incredible slate of guests lined up and I couldn't be more excited.

Be sure to subscribe to the podcast if you haven't already, so you

automatically get new episodes when they become available later this year.

But until then, I hope you enjoy this bonus episode with Tyler Shultz.

Tyler, it's great to have a chance to talk to you again.

Thank you so much for taking the time.

Yeah.

Happy to be here.

So I have all kinds of questions watching the trial and kind

of imagining what your experience was, especially because you were a

potential witness, not just for the prosecution, but also for the defense.

If I remember right, you were on the witness witnesses for the defense,

I think so, yeah.

But it was fascinating watching the trial and trying to imagine what

it was like from your perspective.

So I'm really excited that we can talk and get what that was like.

I think all the people listening would really enjoy hearing what you

learned during the trial that might've been surprising to you, what thoughts

or feelings you had during it.

And now, especially that the trial is over and the verdict has been handed down

Yeah, definitely.

Can we just start with that, the fact that you were a potential

witness during the trial, what was your experience watching the trial as a witness

that might be called on any given day?

Yeah.

So as someone on the witness list, I wasn't allowed to go in the courtroom

to listen to any of the other testimony.

So I was pretty much, you know, keeping up with the trial by reading articles

and following reporters who were in the, in the courtroom on Twitter.

And that's a little.

Strange in itself because this is, I don't even know what the right word

is, but maybe the most consequential thing that I've really done in my life.

And this was kind of the, the crescendo moment of the biggest event in my life.

And I was kind of watching it through a Twitter feed.

So it's, it's a little bit surreal, but then.

Once they stopped calling witnesses.

I was able to go.

So I did attend one day of court.

I went to one day of closing arguments and I really actually

enjoyed doing that because it definitely, it made it feel real.

Seeing her walk into the courtroom is definitely different

than seeing a picture of it.

I didn't enjoy being there, but I think it was good for me.

For my mental health, it was better to actually be there and watch

it happen than to just stare at a Twitter screen and watch it from afar.

I am sure it was a swirl of all kinds of conflicting emotions, especially

because at the point of closing arguments, you still don't know what the outcome is.

You don't know how the jury is going to decide on any of the given counts

that were brought against her.

Definitely not.

The day that I saw it, I listened to the prosecution's closing arguments,

and then only a little bit of the defense's closing arguments.

And I felt like the prosecution did a really good job.

I thought, you know, just after listening to their side, I thought

this sounds so cut and dry.

I don't know what the debate could possibly be.

And I actually saw one of my friends there, who I met through doing

the HBO documentary and she said, yeah, I thought the same thing.

But you didn't see her cry on the stand.

So, yeah, I didn't, I didn't see that part, but apparently she was

very convincing when she took this.

And in fact, the jury took a longer time to deliberate

than I think anybody anticipated.

They started their deliberations before the Christmas holidays came

and then didn't arrive at their decision until after new years.

Was that a stressful time for you during that, during that window?

I mean, I'm sure it was for a lot of other people involved, but how was that for

you having to wait all this extra time?

That I don't think most people expected.

Yeah.

The waiting was not fun.

I was thinking that.

The jury had a pretty good incentive to get this thing wrapped up

before Christmas and New Year's.

And I was disappointed that it wasn't and you had to go, you know, sit

through Christmas and New Year's having this kind of loom over our heads.

But luckily I wasn't the one on trial.

So I think it was probably easier for me than it was for maybe someone else.

Sure.

Yeah, of course.

So she was found guilty.

And just to, to recount for those listening, if you're not familiar

with the details, she was found guilty for four counts that were

related to defrauding investors.

She was found not guilty for four charges about defrauding patients.

And then there were three other charges about defrauding investors

that the jury couldn't agree upon.

And so they didn't hand back a decision on those.

It sounds like those are just going to be declared as a mistrial and the

prosecution probably won't bother bringing the case again against those

three that the jury was hung on.

What are your thoughts about the verdict on all these different counts?

Yeah.

So for me, I really wanted one guilty verdict.

I'd really just needed one.

And having four is fantastic.

I feel really good that there were four guilty verdicts.

I'm a little bit disappointed that they were all related to investor

fraud and none related to the patients.

But I kind of understand it.

I think it does kind of make sense because what she was, what she was on trial for

was not for actually harming patients.

What she was on trial for was lying to patients in order to take their money.

And I don't think that that is actually what she was trying to do.

I don't think she was, you know, lying to your average Joe in Phoenix to try to get

his $30 that he paid for the blood test.

I think that deploying this medical device on real patients

was really a means to an end.

And that means was to get hundreds of millions of dollars in investor money,

not actually the money from the patients.

So I think it does make sense, but it's still a little bit disappointing

that there wasn't something related to the patients, because at the end

of the day, you know, the patients I think are the real victims, not Betsy

Devos and Rupert Murdoch and what people like Erika and I did wasn't to

protect the a hundred million dollars that the Devoss family invested or

the hundred million dollars that the Murdoch's invested or the Cox family.

I don't really care if they lose their hundred million dollars or not.

I, I do care that they were testing an unproven medical device on real people.

That's right.

I mean, there were some sad stories shared by some of the patient

witnesses that the prosecution brought.

Um.

There were . There were women who were told they had

miscarriages when they hadn't.

There were people who were told they had HIV when they did not.

Luckily, seemingly nobody died, which is great.

And frankly, I think a little bit surprising that that no one was

killed by something like this.

But actually my dad said something funny.

He said, you know, Elizabeth Holmes should be thanking you because by

you blowing the whistle on this, you, you saved her from a murder charge.

Well, I mean, and the truth is she does.

Quite a bit of potential jail time with this.

Each of these counts carries up to a 20 year sentence.

So there might be eighty years.

Now to those listening that very rarely happens that the

maximum sentence is applied.

And also it's rare that they're applied consecutively.

Usually what happens is the time that your sentenced with is served concurrently..

But, you know, it will be interesting to see the sentencing is, is an

interesting issue right now, in fact, because the prosecution has basically

asked the judge to delay the sentencing hearing until September, which means

that she was found guilty in January and nobody will even know what her

sentence will be until nine months later.

Well, her trial started in August.

So between the start of the trial and sentencing is slightly more than the.

Like a year and a month.

It's a long time.

It is a long time.

Now what I've read and maybe, you know, more about this is that the delay was

in part because Sunny Balwani's trial is coming up and for listeners, he was.

He was Elizabeth's boyfriend and president of Theranos.

So the two of them together were leading the company.

His trial has been delayed until March, I think is when their next, trying to

schedule it delayed because of COVID.

The sentencing for Elizabeth was delayed, I think, because they wanted

to do the sentencing concurrently with Sunny Balwani's assuming he's

found guilty, which based on the experience with Elizabeth seems likely.

Yeah, I think, well, I think part of it is when the judge

looks at sentencing, there are guidelines, but the judge does not

have to stick to the guidelines.

And the judge also doesn't have to stick to evidence that was presented in court.

They can take in other factors that either make the sentencing

more harsh or more lenient.

So it's possible that he'll learn something.

And it's the same judge between Elizabeth's trial and Sunny's trial.

So it's possible that the judge will learn things during Sunny's trial

that will influence his decision on what to do in Elizabeth sentencing.

So I think, I think that's part of it, but I'm definitely not a legal expert.

And I, it seems a little long from my perspective.

As a former lawyer.

I was never litigator but as a former lawyer, it seems like a long time away.

For sure.

Yeah.

Are there ways that you think Sunny's trial will go differently

than what we saw with Elizabeth trial?

I really don't know.

And I I'm also.

I will assume that I'm on the witness list for that.

I'm actually not a hundred percent sure.

So, um, as much as possible, I'm trying to not comment.

What may or may not happen in Sunny's trial.

That makes sense.

And I won't press you.

Plus you might be here, might be on the defense witness list again, who knows?.

Yeah.

And I won't ask you to comment on this, but for listeners, there was

a, an email exchange between Tyler and Sunny which was especially pivotal.

In fact, it was elements of that email that was originally sent to

Elizabeth and then forwarded to Sunny that has been used as evidence.

It was material that was used by John Carreyrou in some

of his original reporting.

So there are some direct exchanges here between Tyler and Sunny that I expect

will make an appearance during the trial, especially as it relates to what

Sunny knew or should have known about the failure of these Edison devices.

So

that will almost undoubtedly be included.

Okay.

I will say that.

Yeah.

So a lot of new information came to light during the trial, including

conversations between Elizabeth and Sunny, conversations they had about you.

In fact, w what was it like learning these things, especially since you

couldn't even be in the courtroom for them, what was it like learning these

things and what information did you learn that was especially surprising to you?

Yeah, so, I mean, I would say the worst part of this

story for me happened in 2015.

And so, you know, that was a little while ago now.

I've pretty much put it behind me.

I try not to think about it all that much.

Yeah.

And then learning new details about.

I would have to say kind of brought me back to where I was in 2015.

You know, of some of, some of the details that came out made me pretty angry

and made me feel attacked in the same kind of way that I felt like in 2015.

So like some of those details where they had, they had copies of checks that

were written to private investigators.

And I knew that private investigators had been following me.

And, but for some reason, seeing the checks with, you know, the hundred,.

I think the total was like $150,000 check to the private investigators to follow me

and Erica, like seeing things like that just made it all real, all over again.

Whereas before seeing those things, it was kind of, it almost felt like

it was so far in the past that it almost like it almost didn't happen.

You know, that was somebody else who went through that, not me.

And then seeing those things kind of brought it all back.

And then similarly to seeing their text messages around that night,

kind of again, brought, brought me back to that moment in time when.

You know, I don't know.

I probably shouldn't.

I probably shouldn't comment too much because these are texts between

Elizabeth and sunny and they'll probably come up in Sonny's trial.

So actually I'm going to stop myself right there and not

comment on those text messages.

Oh, I totally understand.

Thanks for sharing that.

I hope it was at least a better experience this time, because I

remember in our last interview, we talked about how isolating and lonely

the experience was back in 2015.

Oh, yeah, totally.

This time.

I think you had a lot more people on your side.

Yeah.

Those close to you and all over everywhere else too.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's kind of what I had to remind myself when I saw the

checks and the text messages and I was getting all angry again.

I had to think this time it's different because.

She's actually on trial right now.

So I don't need to, even though I, I, I went into like that same fight

or flight kind of feeling and, you know, I feel like I, like, I need

to fight and I'd have to remind myself you don't, you already did it.

And it's your parts is done now.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So that already happened.

All that stuff already happened.

There's nothing you should do or can do right now.

A lot of people were surprised that Elizabeth even testified at all.

In fact, there were only three witnesses for the defense and really she was the,

she was the only substantial witness.

What do you think of that decision on her part to testify?

I know there was a lot of controversy around the kinds of things she testified.

I'm sure some of those things are things that you feel like maybe you

shouldn't comment on and that's okay.

But what, what was your general reaction to the fact that she

testified in and maybe the content you feel safe talking about?

Yeah, I wasn't surprised at all that she testified.

I think it was her only real chance of, of evading these guilty verdicts.

The one thing Elizabeth is really, really good at is manipulating people.

And.

I wasn't, like I said, I wasn't there, but by all accounts, she was

a very, very compelling on the stand.

She, she laughed, she cried, she smiled, she made eye contact with the jurors.

She was likable.

And afterwards the jurors even said that they said it was hard to

convict somebody who was so likable.

And that is exactly the type of show that she put on time and time and time again.

In order to commit this fraud in the first place.

And it worked so well so many times that it's not surprising to me at all

that she tried it again, and I was worried that it was going to work again.

I was.

When it comes to the prosecution and the case that they had to build before

Elizabeth had the chance to testify, they call 29 witnesses, I think is what it was.

That was a lot of evidence.

And went on for weeks.

As you were following the news of this, what part of the trial do

you think was especially impactful in getting the guilty verdicts?

I think Erika did a really, really great job.

And so Erika is one of the other whistleblowers, who is the same

age as me, right out of college.

We worked there at the same time and I think she was a really good witness.

I was set though, surprised to hear afterwards that the jury did not

give her the highest credibility score that you could give.

And they said that it seemed like she had an ax to grind.

And I was shocked by that because she doesn't.

Like she's, she's a very, very genuine person who.

I wanted to do the right thing.

She's not trying to grind any axes.

And I think Erika had a really great response where she just said,

this shows that there's still a bias against whistleblowers, even

when we've been proven beyond a reasonable doubt to be correct.

There's still a bias against whistleblowers.

I read that she had said that, and I absolutely agree.

We're too quick to assume that for whistle blowers, this is about

vindication or pride or, or any number of other sort of less admirable motives.

But the reality is this that, that both you and Erica who were the two.

Public whistleblowers up until the trial out of the three that John Carryerou had

had relied on the most for his report.

Yeah.

You were the two public ones and it was not at all in your interests for this.

In fact, both of you could have quietly left Theranos and never said anything

like a lot of other people did.

And you would be presumably living a happy life outside of the spotlight.

Yeah, that would have been the easy route.

I also think that that's maybe one of the reasons why I wasn't asked to testify.

It's because of that bias.

And because I had so many interactions with Elizabeth that were outside

of Theranos outside the scope of the crimes, you know, I had

Thanksgiving dinner with her.

I had Christmas dinners with her.

She was coming to birthday parties.

I had a really personal relationship with her.

And I feel like if those details had come out in my testimony,

which they undoubtedly would have, the jurors would have looked at

me and said, he's too biased to.

To be trusted as a witness.

Maybe that's that's my guess.

I don't know.

That's that's just kinda what I'm guessing based on what the reaction was to Erika.

Sure.

And I could see a prosecutor being worried about the possibility of that.

And even that said a bunch of, of you ended up in evidence, right?

Yeah.

Emails and conversations and other details.

So, so what would have happened?

Your interactions back in those days did come out it as evidence

for the trial and it seemed to have a strong effect there too.

So

yeah, they did.

Luckily I think those emails really do speak for themselves.

And I think I was really clear in, in my emails specifically, I would

say this is an observation that I've.

Here's a bunch of data to support that observation.

And here's what I think we should do about it.

And I did that for a whole bunch of points, and I think I was very clear.

I was very articulate in that email.

I, I think I came across pretty unbiased in that email.

If anything, I'm biased towards their notes in that email

saying like, I want to help you.

I'm really doing this to help you.

And I think luckily again, those emails I think, speak for themselves

and, um, I, they didn't need me to come in and comment on them because

I think they were pretty clear.

Yeah.

I'm sure you look back and are really grateful that the much younger Tyler

was so methodical at that time, right?

Yes.

For sure.

For sure.

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This is a big question, and maybe you have a lot of thoughts

and feelings to share on it, or just want to give it a pass.

But with Elizabeth now having been found guilty, what does it feel

like to finally come to this point?

It's been years in the making and really, and for the last two weeks,

you've now finally been living it.

What, what is that like?

It feels really good.

I have to say it feels really, really good.

I feel light.

I feel lighter.

I feel like I can breathe easier.

I met Elizabeth when I was 20 years old and I'm 31 now.

So this has become something that you just live with and it's just

always in the back of your mind.

You're, you're always carrying it with you.

Okay.

If you talk to most whistleblowers, they find it really hard to move on.

And luckily I have been able to move on.

I think I've done much better in that aspect than a lot of other

whistleblowers, but it's still something you carry with you every single day.

And to have these guilty verdicts to have, you know, I had already been vindicated.

CMS and the FDA and the sec had all done their investigations and concluded the

same things that I concluded, but being vindicated in the court of law is huge.

Totally huge.

Even though I always knew I was right, even though I was kind of already

vindicated, this is total and complete vindication and, uh, Honestly, I

just like, I feel like I can breathe.

It feels really good.

I'm so happy to hear you describe it that way.

You know, a lot of people think that when a whistleblower is vindicated

that they basically now have this lifelong career of comfort and praise.

But when you talk to whistleblowers or learn about them, that

tends to not be the case.

You don't graduate into a life of ease and plenty after a moment like this, what

is it like being in your shoes now that the, that the book is closed on Elizabeth

and you know, probably soon to close on.

It feels like I'm starting a new chapter and I'm really

excited for what it holds.

I'm very optimistic about the future.

I don't know, obviously I don't know what, what it will hold, but I'm sure it will

be better than what I've been through.

Or hopefully it'll, it's better than what I've been through.

And, you know, my twenties were pretty rough, but I'm really looking forward

to what the rest of my thirties hold.

What are some of the things you look forward to as you think

ahead, now that this is behind you.

Well, I'm, I mean, one I'm just looking forward

to like, to building a life.

And I did, I got married last year.

And love my wife, my wife just finished her residency in pediatric dentistry.

She's starting to work in private practice and she loves what she does.

And so really I'm just excited to build a life with her.

And then professionally I've been working on my own diagnostic startup for.

For quite a little while now, but to be completely honest, I've learned

the hard way through Theranos.

And through this startup, that diagnostics is a really, really,

really tough space to succeed in.

And my startup will likely soon meet the fate of most startups and, and I'll be

looking for the next thing to work on.

And I'm, I'm excited to, to, to work on something else, whatever it might.

Yeah.

Well, whatever happens, you should know that the fact that you didn't walk

the same path that Elizabeth did is another testament to your character.

Because I'm sure there were a lot of moments where you could have fudged.

Right?

I'm sure there've been a lot of moments that you could have maybe

misrepresented how your devices perform, misrepresented revenue

opportunities, all kinds of things.

Yeah, definitely.

It's actually a little bit funny because I, I do have.

Not quite sympathy, but I understand a little bit how Silicon valley could

have created an Elizabeth Holmes because as a CEO pitching a company,

you, you realize that there's pressure every single day to exaggerate things.

And yeah, it's hard to resist that pressure and you do it once

and it, it works in your favor and you get applauded for it.

You kind of keep doing it and it just spirals out of control and you

end up in a situation like Theranos.

Yeah.

I mean, really it's that old adage that lies breed lies, right?

Yeah.

That one little lie now requires more lies and it just compounds forever.

So it's better to nip it in the bud.

Definitely better to nip it in the bud.

You sleep a lot better at night that way.

I'm sure.

Um, but you do realize you're, you're in competition

with every other entrepreneur and.

VCs want to have want their entrepreneurs to have really, really big aspirations,

really, really big revenue projections.

And, you know, revenue, projections are all pretty much made up.

You can easily get in the mindset where it's like, well,

they know it's in the future.

They know it's made up.

I'm just going to create these astronomical projections that aren't

based anywhere in reality, so that I can secure my next round of funding.

Honestly, I think the good venture capitalists can see through that.

And they saw through that with Theranos.

You know, she did not get top tier VCs to invest in Theranos.

Right.

But the pressures are still there.

How is your family feeling now that the trial is over?

Family is feeling great when it seemed like the verdict was going to come.

My parents called me and said, we're celebrating tonight.

Whether she's found guilty or not guilty, you know, we're just

going to celebrate you, celebrate this whole ordeal, being over.

Come on down, they live about an hour south of me.

So then after the verdict came out, my wife and I headed down there and my

brother was making homemade pizzas and my dad found some really old champagne

in my grandfather's basement and we decided to open it and it was great.

It was a perfect night.

Okay.

Well, I just have one last question I want to ask you.

Imagine you could go back in time.

And talk to the young Tyler Shultz at the moment, right before you're

sending this pivotal email to Elizabeth, because that really was the moment that

kind of broke all of this wide open was the decision to send that email.

What would you have told your younger self in that moment?

I mean, this is going to sound really lame, but what I would have

said is hold off for a week, go talk to a lawyer and figure out what you

can and cannot take out of Theranos, whether it be data, emails, whatever,

and figure out who you can show it to without suffering severe consequences.

Because what I didn't know is that there are protected whistle

blower channels at the essay at the SEC that I didn't know existed.

And I wish that I had when, when I was going through this back in 2014, 2015.

So even though that's kind of lame advice, talk to a lawyer that that would have

been, that would have been my advice.

Um, I give that advice to people all the time.

Yeah.

I don't think it's lame at all.

At the time, I probably would've said like, oh, but a lawyer

is going to cost me like $500 an hour.

I would have said that will be the best $500 you ever spend in your entire life.

Go do it.

And this is actually a good opportunity for me to make one small plug, because

I am now working with a group called the Signals Network and they essentially

connect whistleblowers to all kinds of resources, whether it be to lawyers

or to reporters or therapists or.

Whatever the whistleblower might need, and they didn't exist when I went

through this, but they exist now and they're doing really, really great work.

They're actively helping whistleblowers today.

So if they existed, I would've gone back in time and said, contact the Signals

Network and they will find you the right lawyer, the right reporter, the right,

whatever you need to get through this.

Uh, that's so fantastic.

And I really do an emphasize that I don't know how many people listening

are facing the risk of being a whistleblower, but you really do need

help going it alone is treacherous.

And the way you came through is notable in part, because it's

relatively unique and it really, it really shouldn't be unique, right?

Yeah.

I mean, you, you really have to make life-changing decisions in the.

And it's really hard to make those types of decisions in a

vacuum without sounding boards.

Like you are alone, you are very alone and.

You shouldn't be, you, you need to find the right people to talk to.

And those people are lawyers, right?

Yeah.

It's true.

I know some whistleblower lawyers and they're great people, so don't get

scared off just because they're a lawyer.

Yeah.

There's a lot of lawyers that I very, very much dislike from the story, but

there are also a lot of lawyers that I really do, like from this story.

So for every evil lawyer, there is also a really good one.

That's very true.

Well, let me just say thank you again.

This was so fun talking to you, especially in a way that could be celebratory.

Yeah, definitely.

Yeah.

This would've been a much longer conversation if they were all knocking.

Oh my gosh.

I would have had to overcome my disappointment before

I could have reached out.

Yeah.

Well, I'm, you know, I'm delighted.

It's with a, just outcome that we get out of this conversation.

I echo this because I've talked with lots of students in sharing

your story, and I know all of them would be just delighted to know

that you get to celebrate now, too.

So.

Yeah.

Feeling really good.

That's good to celebrate.

That's right.

Well, thanks Tyler.

It was great talking to you.

Yeah.

Great talking to you as well.

Okay, bye.

See you next time.

I'm so grateful for Tyler taking the time for our conversation.

And I'm so happy for him to have finally made it through this experience, his

courage and dedication to telling the truth have paid off in a way

that I hope everyone finds inspiring.

I've told him before that he'll be a topic in ethics classes for

decades to come an example of integrity that everyone should know.

We're grateful as always to merit leadership who sponsors

this podcast and to the Pleasant Pictures Music Club for the music.

If you want to use their music in your projects, you can find a link

and a discount code in our show notes.

As I mentioned at the beginning we're hard at work on season two, and I've

got to say, it's going to be fantastic.

Be sure to subscribe so you can get episodes automatically

when they become available.

And if you're a new listener, check out season one.

We cover everything from the neuroscience of altruism, to working

with basket weavers in Rwanda.

You'll learn about humility, creativity, and how to find your calling.

Listeners from around the world have tuned in.

And all of our past episodes are available in your favorite podcast app.

Finally, as always, thank you so much for listening.

I'm Aaron Miller and this has been a special bonus episode of How to Help.