In this episode of the Skirts Up Show, hosts Samantha and Melissa get valuable insight on relationship and sexual health by Dr. Stephanie Bathurst, a clinical sexologist and relationship therapist. Dr. Bathurst provides insightful advice on emotionally navigating different relationship models, especially ethical non-monogamy (ENM). Topics covered include the importance of secure attachment in relationships, the four essential S's (safe, seen, soothed, secure), and why open communication is key to a successful romantic partnership. She also details the benefits of regular sexual activity for hormonal balance and pain management, stressing the importance of addressing changing sexual needs as we age. The episode wraps up with a discussion about sexual health education for children, highlighting the need for open, non-judgmental conversations.

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• Check out our friends at One Soul Boudoir and book your free consultation through our link.

Hey, you.

You're tuned in to the Skirts up show with Samantha and Melissa.

Join our mission to normalize failure, but still uncover the positives at every twist and turn.

Skirts up, but keep your panties on.

What's up, Skirts Up Squad?

It is Samantha and your girl Melissa.

And we did it right that time.

We did.

Oh, that's hilarious.

That's so funny.

Because to me, there is no right.

And you're like, no, there is a way to do this.

No.

As the conversation has been today.

That is.

That is so funny.

No, I was referring to, like, the last episode that released and you, like.

Jumped in and I said, I know, Substitute squad.

Okay.

And it really threw her.

Threw me for a loop, guys.

Oh, my God.

Is that my fail?

Talking about how you were kind of pointing out, but not pointing out that, like, I. I felt like my student or the students that I was working with.

It sounds like it's your fail.

Let's share it.

Let's share it.

Okay.

Because now you have to tell.

Now I have to tell.

Okay.

So it goes with.

I was just explaining to Melissa that I was getting really frustrated with the people that I'm getting partnered with in my RTT classes.

So now it's time for me to practice as a therapist.

And then in return, I'm their client.

And I was getting frustrated because they kept wanting to break up the intake sessions from the, like, actual therapy session.

And.

And like, to me, that doesn't make sense because the flow of the therapy session is going 20 minutes, 20 minutes, going through, like, the intake part, and then you go into the hypnosis and the therapy part and.

And all of that.

And so a 20 minute thing shouldn't mean that you need a whole different day to do a 20 minute interview.

Yeah.

And so to me, practicing the flow that you're going to do when you're practicing, like, actually, like, being a practitioner, you should do it how you're supposed to do it.

Yeah.

Like, put yourself in the real actual, like, constraints that you would be in.

And the point is practice.

So start timing yourself, making sure that you are hitting the intro within the 20 minutes.

You know, like, start playing with that and seeing, like, where you're going.

And they're just all like, no, no, no, no.

Like, sessions will go three hours, and that's just far too long.

So we need to schedule three days, one day where we'll both do the intake.

So 25 minutes.

25 minutes.

And then where you're the therapist day, and then where you're the client day.

And I'm just like that.

I'm not going to do it that way.

I was like, okay, well, when I'm the therapist, I'm going to do it how it should be, where you do the intake and the therapy session all together, because flow.

And I want to learn and practice the flow.

Yeah.

And Melissa just kind of looked at me because I was like, why are they being so difficult?

And I'm like, it's just the flow.

It's how it's supposed to go.

You do the intake and then you do the session.

That's what we learned.

Melissa just kind of looks at me and politely doesn't say anything.

I go, oh, fuck, I'm the problem.

Got it.

But to be fair, I was not at all thinking that you were the problem.

I was just laughing inside because I was like, yeah, she just has to.

Have her the rigid.

The rigid.

Yeah, routine.

Like, routine.

This is how it is.

Yeah.

We learned it in class.

Why can't they get it?

And then I was like, okay, well, maybe just try to be bend with them a little bit.

But at the same time, once I.

Explained it to you, you were like, oh, no.

That they're harming themselves.

Like, they're not practicing.

I agree with you.

Yeah.

But it was just really funny to hear you say it.

That in such, like.

You heard it.

Yes, the way I said it and I saw your face, I go, fuck.

That'S me being me.

Which you are.

Awesome.

So never fear, I'm down.

But yeah, so I wouldn't say it's a fail, but it's kind of cool because, like, you got like, it was you, like, seeing yourself for a second and being like, wait.

And stepping back.

I heard it in your brain.

And being introspective.

She heard it in my brain.

That's so funny.

Yeah, that's what I say.

Yeah.

But do you have a fail or were we talking about the trip that you missed?

Oh, so I did share a fail, I think, in a previous episode about how I missed the trip.

So I do want to ask you about that, actually.

I was just going to say real quick for me, a fail.

Yeah, it.

And it's not even a fail, obviously.

They never are truly fails, are they, guys?

But for years, because this is funny, though, Sam will understand because she understands it in a different way than me or maybe the same.

But for years, I was told to cover up my body.

And I was told, like, you can't dress this way because one, it's not appropriate.

But.

Or then as I got older and started kind of putting on weight.

Nobody wants to see your body, like, you know, out at the beach or whatnot, or you shouldn't be wearing tank tops, your arms are too big, things like that.

And so it took me quite a few years, but I would say in my late 20s, I was like, no, I know.

I don't have a body that I want.

I don't have the body that I love, and I'm working on that.

But I am gonna wear what makes.

Me comfortable, and you're gonna love the body that you do have.

I'm working on that.

Thank you.

So I wanted to share with you guys.

Okay.

I haven't worn it out in public yet, but I bought a bikini.

I did.

I did.

And you did wear it.

There's proof.

There's proof.

I wore it in my boudoir photo shoots.

One boudoir photography.

Exactly.

Exactly.

And so I felt really cute in it.

Except, like, there's this role that I have on my stomach that I just.

Well, there's two roles, really, but one of them won't be hidden.

And I just.

You know what?

I am going to.

I'm going to do it.

I'm going to wear it.

I'm going to wear it in public.

And I'm so excited.

I'm going to just kind of try to be like, you know what?

Yeah, I don't have a perfect body, but I want to have fun.

Now.

I expect you to wear it when we're in Mexico.

I will.

Yes.

Yeah.

Well, we're going to Mexico together, so.

Yeah, that's a story for another time, because we're still planning, but we're doing it.

Maybe we'll bring you guys with us, but who wants to bring work to vacation?

We do, because we love our people.

Oh, my God.

Did that just come in my mouth?

Well, I'm just kidding.

I'm just kidding.

No, love you guys.

I love the podcast.

It is a lot of work, though.

And this is.

Yes, you're.

Yeah, yeah, it's a lot of work.

It's a lot of work.

But.

But we'll probably have some, like, little clips that we can share.

Yes, absolutely.

Because we like to share with you.

Guys, but we're not even gonna go till next January or something.

Yeah, and there's a whole.

Another fun story to that, but another time.

You'll hear about it in the upcoming season, which have you.

I don't know if you guys noticed, but we do.

We have this episode coming out, and then we only have three more episodes.

Holy crap.

Three more episodes for this season.

For the season.

And that's a wrap.

The last episode, what, like August 17th, 14th?

Is that what the date is?

As I try and look really fast for y'.

All.

Yeah.

The last episode of this season is August 14th.

Wow.

Yeah.

And then we'll be back about mid October.

My gosh.

We're doing it.

We're just rolling through the season.

We are.

And season four is going to be.

A breeze because we're starting to get.

Pours of people asking to be on the show.

It's pretty cool.

It is.

So there's just so many conversations to have, and I feel like the more of them that we talk to and we start recording because we have began recording for season four.

Oh, my gosh, you guys.

I wish so bad that it was dropping sooner because I can't wait for them to hear who we spoke with today.

Like, I had chills through the whole conversation.

Yeah.

And in fact, when we finished that recording, we both looked at each other and we go, we have to do a part two to release right after it.

Yeah.

And so, yeah, we're hoping she's gonna.

Get on board with us.

Yeah, she will.

She will.

She's pretty cool.

Yeah, she's awesome.

Anywho, so I kind of wanted to ask, because I did miss our girls trip that went downtown to downtown Atlanta with you and Courtney.

Yes.

You were supposed to be with us.

I don't know if you guys remember that.

That, I think.

Oh, that was the last episode.

But, like, two episodes ago, I think you had mentioned missing.

Yes, that's what it was.

Courtney and I and Melissa were going to a strip club.

I'd never been to a strip club in my life.

We hadn't either.

We hadn't either.

But, like, the Claremont Lounge, if, you know, like, Atlanta, like, the Claremont is a staple.

It's a landmark.

I had never known this.

Yeah, I don't.

I don't know why I know that since, you know, strip clubs and naked people, you.

But.

But.

Well, I don't want to say, but when I looked up the Clermont, it's, like, not all really even mentioned, really, about the strip club.

Yeah.

Okay.

And so the Clermont is known for its unusual entertainment.

So these strippers, the strippers, the.

The entertainers, they aren't your average image.

Wait, you mean everybody doesn't just go to strip clubs?

That's not average.

I'm just teasing.

No, they don't look like what you.

Oh, you're talking about the women themselves.

So, yeah, the entertainers themselves don't.

What do they look like?

So you have.

All right, just to paint a picture, okay.

The most famous entertainer there.

Her name is Blondie.

Okay.

She is 68 years old.

Oh, awesome.

And she has been at the Claremont Lounge for 47 years.

She actually celebrated her 47th year as an entertainer at the Claremont Lounge the day we were there.

Whoa.

And what she is known for is crushing beers with her boobs.

I hadn't told you that, did I?

No.

Yes.

And so that was, like, Courtney's, like, mission.

I'm gonna meet Blondie and I'm gonna have a can crushed in her boobs.

What the heck?

And we sure did.

She was the first person we ran into.

She's so strong.

Okay.

So what we thought was that she's gonna, like, lift her boob and, like, they're gonna be huge boobs and, like, crush it, you know, like a hammer.

It's more of, like, a pulling the shoulders forward and a peck thing.

Yeah.

She's 68 years old, guys.

Like.

Yeah.

So she.

It goes in between her boobs, and then she just kind of crushes it, you know, Shoves her boobs together.

Hands.

Yeah.

It wasn't as crazy as, like, what we thought, but anyways, it's okay.

Blondie, they still liked you.

Yes.

And so Courtney got this whole kit of papers that Blondie has created.

Like, you know, stories, life stories.

Like.

Oh, yeah, all this stuff, like this baggie.

And she sells she.

Well, I mean, because she.

People don't really often ask for a lap dance, and a lap dance is about 20 a dance.

So she does $20 a can.

Crush.

And so got you.

Yeah.

You, like, pay her $20, and so she gives you this little baggie to take home with, like, information about her, and she'll, like.

She kissed the can and signed all the paper.

Like, signed it to Courtney.

Interesting.

Yeah, it was really funny.

We had a great time.

So ne.

None of us had been to a strip club.

We got our first lap dance, and it was by Coco at the Clermont Lounge.

And let me just tell you, we fell in love with a stripper.

Isn't that like a movie or a song or something?

I'm in love with a stripper.

Yeah.

We are in love with Coco.

She gave us both our first laughter.

They're in love with Coco.

Yes.

Let me just telling you, Courtney was so in love with Coco.

Poor Courtney.

Should we not Be dropping her name throughout this whole episode.

No, she's very proud of this.

Okay, good.

She's so in love with Coco that she asked Coco what her perfume was and then spent the whole entire day.

The next day trying to find it.

Trying to find it.

Like, literally went to the mall and was store popping and having people help her.

What is it, dude?

I don't remember.

And she expense.

She must have loved it.

Yeah, I won't, I won't out you on how much you spent on it, Courtney.

But yes, she loved Coco and was obsessed with Coco so much that she found a designer perfume.

My goodness, Courtney.

Yeah, it was a great time.

And then next time you're over Courtney, or next time we see each other, I need a lap dance and she.

Has to smell like cocoa.

Well, obviously.

Yeah.

And so we were there early, like earlier in the night.

Okay.

So before it was like super crowded.

And then honestly, by time it got crowded, we were, we had experience.

What kinds of people were there?

Like, did you feel like it was kind of gross people or nice people or just weird?

All kinds.

Like, are you talking about entertainer wise or like.

No, like clients.

Yeah, the crowd clients.

That would be sex work.

Melissa and I.

It is sex work.

Is it?

Yeah, they're professionals.

They're getting paid.

Wait, but prostitution's illegal.

It's not prostitution.

It's sex work.

I'm going to look up the difference.

Okay, I will educate myself.

Why'd you ask me the.

The technical.

What the crowd was like?

Okay, so the most interesting person in the crowd that we saw was at the table next to us because we got there early enough to get a table.

There was this old man with a composition book and he's at the table just writing things on the composition book.

Interesting.

And so Coco's dancing and we just kind of lean over and we're like, hey, what is the old man doing?

Like, what is he writing?

Oh, you asked her?

Yeah, we did.

Because we were like, is he being like, what is happening?

And she goes, oh, he's just a regular.

Like, he just, he's, he's just here.

He has like this high profile job and he comes and sits down to relax and he just writes notes in his position.

But yeah, and they're like, yeah, he's a great guy.

Like, we all know him.

Like, I was like, oh, okay.

He's very supportive.

So it's creepy from like an outsider's.

View, but like, we're not used to that lifestyle.

But everyone else, it was like young people, a lot of Young people and that were going there, you know, for the experience.

Because it's an experience, honestly.

Awesome.

So it was a lot of fun.

And once it did start picking up and did start getting crowded, we honestly were like.

Well, we experienced.

Experienced everything.

Like, that was the whole point.

And we went back to the hotel room and we ended up playing like the charades.

Oh, fun.

It was like this charades headband.

Yeah.

So like whatever word was on the head.

And you know, we had a few drinks.

So it was so funny.

To where Courtney.

Courtney and I decided to play Jesse Murph music.

And we were jumping on the bed like you would to Britney Spears.

I don't even know who Jesse Murph is.

I will enlighten you.

But we were acting like it was Britney Spears jumping on our bed.

Like we're like 8 year old Tom.

Cruise on Oprah's couch.

Yeah.

Just kidding.

And then we got so into it that Courtney literally flew off the bed on accident, like jumping, and then missed the bed and flew and fell into a corner.

She's okay.

She didn't get crazy.

She's okay.

But like, there was also a grocery bag in the corner and when she landed on it, it acted like a whoopee cushion.

No, she did sound like a fart.

Yes.

So it was like she flew off the bed on accident.

Missed the.

Landed on this plastic bag that ended up sounding like a wolfie cushion.

So we're laughing because what just happened.

That is so funny.

You're like, I promise it was funny.

If you were there, you would have been dying.

I bet it was hilarious.

Oh, I realize you're not laughing.

I am laughing.

I'm laughing inside.

Okay.

It was really fucking funny.

And.

No, it is hilarious.

It was a good time, but I can see him being a little tipsy and with the right people.

Yes, yes, yes.

It's all.

It's heightened.

Yeah.

I wish you were there.

I wish I was there too.

You would have loved it.

I wish one.

So we'll have to experience it again, right?

Guess I'll just have to.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Courtney, I'm sorry that I missed it.

Her falling into the corner and farting like a whoopee cushion.

That is hilarious.

And today we have.

She's so smooth parting like a whoopee cushion.

Today we have a sexologist with us.

Is that a smooth transition?

Not at all.

Oh.

Today we have with us a sexologist to talk with us about sex and the benefits of having a female orgasm.

Yeah.

Actually, we learned a lot.

She was so interesting.

We did learn a lot.

Yeah.

If I remember correct, we learn a.

Lot with everybody, but I don't know why we always act like we're surprised, but we're like, actually, it was my favorite conversation.

Yeah.

But it's not news anymore.

But you guys will enjoy it.

So.

Yeah.

Take a listen.

Today I'm so excited to introduce to you Dr. Stephanie Bathurst.

Did I say it right?

You did, yes.

Yes.

She is a clinical sexologist and a licensed relationship therapist.

We have been wanting to talk about sex and as you've seen throughout the season, we're sprinkling in just how healthy and fun it should be.

So this is really exciting to hear from the professional.

Stephanie, thank you so much for joining us today.

I've been looking forward to this same.

Thank you so much.

Yeah, I'm really excited to be here.

I think we're going to have some really good conversation for everybody.

So I appreciate you.

Oh, absolutely.

Thank you.

I think, yes.

We are going to be touching on several questions that have been brought up to us through our listeners, you guys.

So thank you for sitting in those questions so that we could find someone who can properly answer those for you.

That's right.

How.

Tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got into the profession of what got you interested in sexology.

I feel like that's not super common.

Yeah.

So I, I'm lucky enough to know that I was always, I always wanted to work with people, like helping people.

And so I knew that I wanted to be a clinician, a therapist for a really long time.

I think the more schooling I went through, the more refined my niche became.

And naturally, as I like really became an expert and specialized in romantic relationships, I felt like there was a huge gap in like treatment or just education within the relationship therapy field.

You can't really do it holistically without attending to sexual intimacy and physical touch.

So as I kind of continued forward, I got more training in that.

And so right now I'm in Hawaii.

I used to have my practice based in Maryland, like in the D.C. area.

Ish.

And I started becoming pretty well known in that region for just being a sex positive therapist.

So a lot of like the polyamorous and kink communities in that area because they, there are a lot of barriers to them finding the right fit providers who are able to support them in the unique or circle dynamic.

They kind of started to gravitate to me and that's when I decided to get my PhD in clinical sexology.

So that was the metamorphosis.

Yeah.

Wow.

Okay.

Why do you think people of the.

These different types of relationships were drawn to you are like, are you a part of that community yourself or.

That may not be an appropriate question.

You don't have to answer.

I was thinking maybe you're just open to working with them.

Yeah, I'm definitely, I think philosophically I believe that people are capable of many loves in def.

In different ways.

Your connection and attachment from one person to the next is entirely unique and it's not one sum.

And so I think philosophically I align more with like the, the potential health and success of not, you know, ethically non monogamous relationships or non traditional styles.

And I tend to be much more sex positive just in general.

So I think just all of those components of who I am as a person and therefore as a provider made people feel more comfortable opening up.

And then as they had good experiences, they referred to their communities and it kind of expanded outward.

Sure, yeah.

Now I definitely want to get into questions about.

So one of our specific questions is around E M relationships, but I also wanted to ask how were you, were you raised in a home, like where it was okay to talk about sex?

To where it just helped you feel unable to explore this as a profession?

Or was that something that you had to just kind of branch out on your own to explore?

Yeah.

Or maybe you're like, oh, I never understood the taboo about it.

Yeah, yeah, I, I definitely grew up in a home.

Not that there was any shame, like overt shame inherent in any of our like, rituals or conversations, but it just wasn't discussed.

It wasn't an open, comfortable topic of discussion.

And so when I was young, a lot of my, my awareness, my insight came from personal research because I had questions, but I didn't feel super comfortable opening up and asking the people immediate like field.

And so, yeah, I think, I think that's been really valuable for me, like as I move, as I moved forward into the professional realm to make sure that I held space and I normalized conversations and words about sex and physical affection and touch.

So at the very least, like we as a, as a public can be a little more comfortable with it.

These should be open conversation.

Yeah.

Do you have like a help sheet that you've helped parents discuss this?

Because that's a very awkward conversation to have with your kids and to know when and how.

And.

Yeah, my specialty is more with adults.

I did specialize with young kids when I was really early in my field.

I used to actually be a specialist for young children with advanced sexual, like Trauma within their families, this time in the residential facilities.

And so that's really important work.

Yeah, but I burned out in like two years.

I was just emotional.

Right.

Yeah, A lot to have to take on every night or every day.

It is.

Or try to even brush off at the end of the day and.

Oh, yeah, I would feel like, maybe even feel guilty trying not to think about it at night.

Like, we're fine.

There's so many facets of.

Yeah, yeah.

Yourself for sure.

For me, it was like I started to feel my, like, positivity and hopefulness as like, like for the public, for our future as a society start to wane with.

With how much, like, darkness.

Yeah.

And you know how they always say, like, truth is always stranger, more like severe than fiction.

And that certainly is the truth as you, like, go through some of these police reports and treatment plans and the, you know, just heavy, heavy.

And so.

Yeah, that.

But there's so much need there.

So I've.

I've definitely mediated conversations with like, adult clients of mine and their adolescent kids as they struggle to have like, the sex talk or to be open and, and supportive of coming out.

You know what I mean?

Just kind of like the identity discovery process that kids go through and helping their parents support them through that.

Oh, that's nice.

Which is helpful in its own way.

We had a guest on that, talked about her experience of what it was like for her daughter to come out and be okay with telling her who.

Who she is.

Yeah.

Okay.

So you talked about the different communities that feel safe and comfortable coming to you to talk about their different types of relationships and how, if I heard you correctly, that philosophically you do believe that there is more than one love for each person.

So I want to touch on that and, and talk about these different types of relationships that honestly, I don't think a lot of people even know exist.

I know.

I recently just learned about em.

Yeah.

I think also a lot of people, even if they know they exist, maybe weird, are told.

Like they try not to even think about it.

Maybe they don't even think about it because it just doesn't seem.

Yeah, I've always heard of it as like a negative.

Yeah, we don't talk about it in society much.

We don't, but it's very common.

We look at the research and by report.

So we know that this is drastically under reported because it's a known taboo.

By report, 1 in 5, like, of all relationships in the U.S. 1 in 5 will experience some type of EM within the lifespan of their Relationship.

And that's like a significant number.

And we know it's probably more like 1 in 3 because of the under report.

Yeah.

So it's very common.

Very, very common.

We just don't talk about it.

Right.

It's kind of like.

And I have a young daughter, so I kind of experienced this firsthand.

But it's kind of like the discussions about miscarriage.

It's not at all.

It's very common, it's very known.

It's very impactful to like you and your relationship and your life.

But nobody really talks about it openly.

And that's a disservice to us certainly.

Yeah, yeah.

So what is there that people need.

To know for enm.

Yeah.

Like what?

We don't talk about it enough.

So like what do.

What does the community need to know to.

Yeah, I mean I'm also like.

So people who don't know anything about it.

How would you explain it?

I'm wondering.

So it's an ethical non monogamous relationship.

What's the ethical part?

How do you keep it ethical?

Because I think a lot of people have a hard time with that thinking, like it's just going to get messy.

Yeah, yeah, Perfect question.

So it's all about openness, transparency and contracting.

Right.

There has to be very explicit, overt negotiations between all partners.

Otherwise there is the pro.

The possibility of, you know, secondary, tertiary outside relationship being experienced and processed as an active infidelity.

Just because you're in an ethically non monogamous relationship, you can still experience jealousy, envy, feelings of betrayal if you don't do it correctly.

Right.

And that's why I always say that I work with advanced systems.

That's my specialty.

Not necessarily like E and M in particular, but either like any kind of.

And that's a huge spectrum to be like, you know, we are opening up to a third party, just staying with the primary dyad ourselves.

That's like the one end of the spectrum.

All the way to kitchen table poly where all partners are heavily integrated into relationships with each other.

You think of like everybody sitting down at the same table for dinner together.

Yeah.

Lots of massive spectrum of different types of relationship lines and dynamics that exist.

Whatever, whatever you choose with your partner.

One, it has to be openly contracted before you take any action.

So there needs to be really, really good communication skills for you to do that.

And.

Or have like a third party mediator who knows what they're doing to help you ask the right questions.

And two, you're.

We always talk about like logistics, planning.

You have to be a good project manager, to be in like an advanced systems because you have so many relational responsibilities.

Right.

And there's a lot that you get back from that.

For most people, they're like, oh, it's worth it.

It is a lot of effort to talk to all of my partners and give them the energy that they deserve and need for the sustainability of this relationship.

But it's just a lot more.

It's on an advanced scale.

And so you really need to have like good communication and good executive functioning skills to make this sustainable long term.

So I guess I'm kind of curious because I've actually never dabbled in that in any kind of open relationship.

I've been curious about it, but sometimes when I think about it, it's literally the thing that you just now said is there's more work.

And I'm like, why?

Tell me some, give me some reasons.

Like why is this something that people should look at or look into?

Yeah.

When, when would a couple think, oh, maybe that's for us.

Right.

Yeah.

So we're all, we're all unique and different in the priorities of values, of intimacy forms.

So if we have, if we're in a committed partnership with somebody who is usually like different from us.

Right.

Those prioritizations, those scales differ from one person to the next.

Yep.

And you love and you're committed to this person.

And also you have this one particular or many particular areas that are not, are not fully fulfilled.

And I love that you said and also and not.

But because that, yeah, that just kind of right there, that's everything to me.

Like you want to keep the relationship you have and you need more.

Exactly.

It is, it is an and.

Right.

You're not, you're not like saying, okay, well I guess I'll say stay in this relationship because it's more convenient.

But it's not working for me.

So I'm going to find somebody else to fill these areas.

It's more, it's an we rather than a subtractive model.

Right.

Like, which would be my partner has their own partner and they're taking energy away from our relationship and giving to this other person, which is oftentimes the mindset that keep.

Keeps people stuck in this traditional model of relationships.

Yeah.

We want to transition and reframe more toward an additive model of thinking, which would be my partner and I, we're seeing outside partners for like additional energy.

Right.

Maybe we have caps on how much energy we can fulfill with each other.

Just with each other.

But if we bring these Other parties into the mix, and they enhance our levels of fulfillment, our joy, our, like, adventure for life.

We bring that energy, that elevated mood back to each other, and we have more energy to recirculate among us.

Okay.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That gives you just right there already gives you a lot to think about because so many people are like, oh, like, yeah.

You hear a lot of people say, yeah, my husband was a great guy.

He, you know, really cared about me.

He was a great father, but I just.

I needed more or something.

And like, then people are like, oh, we'll get a divorce.

Like, find someone who can meet all those things.

And there's always that.

But how can.

How can you ensure that you're going to get it all?

And so maybe another way to think about it is, no, I am happy because you're a great husband, great father, like, so patient and kind and giving.

But, like, you bring these things to.

The table, and then other things are.

Brought, and it can be an option as well.

Yeah.

No one person will fit all of the boxes.

That's a big thing to remember.

Yeah.

And for a lot of people, it's like.

For a lot of people in the traditional mindset, which also, like, I'm very supportive.

I work so much with monogamous coupledoms, and that can be done healthily and unhealthily.

Just like em can be done healthily or unhealthily for a lot of people in, like, the monogamous philosophy, they fill those needs with friend groups or with family experiences or with travel routes.

You know what I mean?

Hobbies.

They just do it in other ways that don't involve romantic relationships.

It's.

But it's still the same process.

Not this one person can't meet 100% of your social, physical, intimate needs.

That makes sense.

And how do we get that elsewhere to feel whole, you know?

So it's.

Yes.

Okay, so it's not E M is more.

So, like, if you were missing something, particularly sexually, that you can't get fulfilled maybe in your marriage.

And is that kind of what I'm understanding?

I thought I understood that it didn't have to be sexually either.

I don't know.

I'm so confused now.

Maybe.

Think about.

So poly.

Polyamory.

It's multiple relationships, Right?

Okay.

Multiple loves.

And that can mean romantic love.

It can mean sexual love.

So if you're on that, on the farther end of the polyamorous spectrum, there.

There's usually going to be a romantic component to it.

Think about, like, emotional intimacy.

Psychological intimacy.

Physical intimacy.

But not necessarily sexual.

So it can have both of those components, sexual and romantic love.

The closer you get to the other end of the spectrum of E M, which is like we're in a committed monogamous structure, but we want to have threesomes every once in a while, which is bringing a very like.

It's a very controlled way of doing, of opening up where the primary dyad is still protected.

That is much more sexually based relationship.

That makes sense.

Yeah.

So you can do it in many different ways depending on what your needs are, you know, what the function is.

Now just in a traditional relationship, coming to your partner about something sexual that you have a desire to explore or talk about can be scary and really hard.

How do you have these conversations with a partner in a safe, unjudgmental way?

Thank you.

That's such a good question.

That's a great question.

And I think it really depends on the foundation of the relationship and if it's at a stable point for you to even consider and open this conversation up.

Because it is a very vulnerable sometimes for people, it's very scary.

There's a lot of like fear, future oriented fear responses that like activate immediately and a lot of familial trauma.

Right.

Like if you went through a divorce when you were a kid because one of your parents cheated on the other person, this can be really reactivating of loss and abandonment for people.

So not only do we want to make sure that everybody has done their work, like their own personal work to heal and recover from some of those relational traumas, but there should be secure attachment in your relationship.

You shouldn't.

We should never dive into, like expanding toward a more complex system.

If your current dyadic system is unstable, it will never end well.

And so we want to evaluate, like, do you feel safe and secure with me?

Are we stable?

Do we have the 4s' in our relationship pretty consistently?

And if not, that needs to be the first step.

Can we talk about the four S's?

Because I was just about to ask you, like, you know, we're always supposed to be working on ourselves.

When are, when's the work going to be done?

It's never going to be done.

Right.

So how do you know that you've done enough work to bring in some of these conversations like that you're like stable enough?

Like.

Well, in my opinion, I also think that there's probably, I think way less couples than we want to admit ever reach a secure relationship.

So.

Yeah.

So I'm wondering if those S's is that like the security, like she just said, Is that one of them?

Yeah.

So the four S's are safe, seen, soothed and secure.

Oh, you can only access security on a con, like on a, you know, stable basis.

When you have the first three that are present consistently and we're human, there are going to be situational triggers where like, you know, we feel a moment of regression, we come to our partner, we repair and heal.

This is more so in like an, an everyday kind of baseline.

Are you feeling safe emotionally, physically, financially, whatever it is, Are you feeling safe?

Are you feeling seen, which is tapping into the emotional and psychological intimacy component.

Do you feel like your partner verifies who you feel you deeply are as like a human being and do they support your emotional health and then do you feel soothed?

Which is more about co regulation, not codependency.

So this is different from I'm upset, I need you to regulate my emotions.

That is what codependence is.

Right.

Co regulation is.

I see that you're at the upset.

I'm going to sit here next to you.

Maybe I'll model deep breathing or some acupressure tapping points, be here with you.

As you go through this stressful experience of regulating.

Do you see how there's like.

Yeah, there's like support and love and respond responsivity there.

Right.

On a consistent basis.

So we need those three things in the relationship before you can even evaluate if security has been accessed.

Interesting.

As.

Do you also feel like there is a very low amount of couples that will ever reach a secure relationship?

I do.

I think if you have a really effective like, so as a couple's therapist, that's like my jam.

Right.

If I were to be asked what is the most valuable, most critical tool that any couple can, can learn?

Like the first thing I want people to learn how to do is to repair.

It's to like identify when an injury is happening in the relationship, be able to implement effective diffusive techniques to reduce the tension as it has built and to know how to come back together and prioritize the bigger picture, which is never, am I right or are you right?

But it's always going to be, how can we be happy and feel loved in this life that we share together?

Right, yeah.

So it's whatever activates that bigger picture perspective for you to like deprioritize that power dynamic that's happening right now.

Because that's not going to bring you what you want and what you need.

So having a really effective repair process, even if you're attachment is not 100% secure all of the time.

If you can do that, you can be healthy in your relationship.

What would you advice?

Would you give somebody who's going through some struggles in their marriage and maybe they've decided that it's about.

That it should be over.

Like, how do you decide it's okay to not repair?

Like, what would you say?

Like, are the things that you need to be looking for?

Like, like what are the core values of like this is repairable or beyond.

Reconcile, it's okay to move on.

Yeah.

I think it's more about intention.

For what?

For whatever decisions you're making.

Right.

Like if, if somebody comes in and they're like, I want to leave my partner and I want to make sure that I make the right decision.

Right.

What I would first do is help them break down all of the intricacies to get down to the root core.

And sometimes the root core is but I don't trust them.

And so I don't want to continue this relationship because that would require me to step back into vulnerability with them.

Right.

Yeah.

Which is more fear based.

That's not like a, that's not a healthy intention for making you sound decisions for your life, like horrible decisions that drastically impact your life.

We want to help you recognize like what your needs are, the compatibility potential with your partner.

We want to heal any active betrayals.

And that doesn't necessarily have to include the other person.

Right.

Like you going through the forgiveness process and being able to release past pain is more about you and your.

You deserving a higher quality of life than carrying the weight of these emotional burdens.

Right.

So put that decision on the back burner for a couple of weeks while we help get you re centered and in a sound place when you're making good executive decisions for yourself.

Did I answer the question?

Yeah, I think so.

Thank you.

There are a lot of reasons why.

There are a lot of reasons why people are in romantic relationships.

And I think in a bit we'll probably talk about the reasons for sex as well, which there can be many, which is great.

But for both of those things, there are healthy and unhealthy reasons.

Right.

Like coming together because you have children together is not a healthy reason.

It's not going.

If that's the core reason why you're remaining committed in this relationship, it will not serve to bring you happiness and fulfillment.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

You know, there has to be something more core in terms of the attachment.

If your attachment is totally severed and you're feeling more apathetic than you are connected.

There's, it's, it's hard to regain that back because yeah, the repair processes work.

Right.

You have to want in order to put in the work for it to work workout.

Right, Right.

Like you said, I do want to move into the reasons for sex, but I have one more question about attachment style.

When you have a couple and one person may be secure in their personal attachment style, if the other person in that relationship never reaches a secure attachment style for themselves, will they ever be able to have like a fully healthy, happy relationship?

I was literally thinking that while she was talking.

You guys are so aligned.

We get that a lot.

No, it's a, it's a great question.

I love systems work because we can like pop out of the, the in depth, like situational stuff and really look at the bigger picture and how systems work.

Work in relationships.

Systems will always try to find balance, which is why if we have originally a secure, securely attached partner and a partner who is, I don't know, disorganized, avoidant.

I'm sure it's a huge spectrum.

Those aren't like refined dichotomous categories, right?

Like there, there's a range there.

Yeah.

The system is going to find balance with that partnership by encouraging the secure partner to do the exact opposite of what the insecure partner is doing.

So if one person is presenting with more of an avoidance style in this relationship, the system is going to encourage their counterpart to present with more anxious tendencies.

Which is why we feel like people will come in and be like, oh, we had this moment of betrayal or injury in our relationship and it's just gotten out of hand.

Like, we have just changed so much how we interact with one another over the last couple of years since that incident.

And it just, it gets like worse and worse, right?

Like.

Yeah, exactly.

Until we rebalance and stabilize the system, it's going to be a really gross oversimplification.

But for people who aren't familiar with attachment styles and the nuances of them, I would say avoidant is more.

And everything's based out of anxiety.

Right.

And self protection.

They're just different manifestations of it.

So avoidant is more.

I trust myself, but I don't trust other people.

And so I'm going to keep them, I'm going to push them away or keep them at base, at bay, because that's how I will control the situation.

Anxious is more.

I trust other people, but I don't trust myself.

And so I'm going to cling on to them and and assume their identity because I don't trust my own.

And then disorganized is a combination of both of those.

And it's usually based out of attachment traumas.

Right?

Yeah.

Like trauma from childhood will breed those like really chaotic reactive dynamics.

Yeah.

So that was the oversimplification of it.

That's really scary to think that, you know, if you do end up.

If you are a secure person and you do end up marrying and loving someone who's not how really it's.

That energy can shift you in a negative way if you've let it.

That's really scary to think about.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It was interesting.

The thought that kind of came to my mind was because you were talking about the safe seemed soothed and secure.

And I was thinking, you know, there are times when a partner, I have seen it where one of the partners may refuse to feel seen or safe or secure.

And like everything you do to try to let them know you're seeing them or whatnot is, is, is kind of rebuffed, I guess.

Avoidant.

Yeah.

And so I thought it kind of took me to what Sam had said anyway.

Get some of those traits.

Yeah.

And I think it's when I do like premarital work with couples, like preparing them for marriage and what that means to them and defining what it, what their expectations are.

I always, always include like the expectation of personal health, personal evolution.

Right.

Because your relationship are always maxed out.

They are always capped at the individual counterparts level of like health, functioning, awareness.

So like even if one person is really elevated in their like personal evolution and awareness, if their counterpart is way down here and hasn't done the work, the relationship is going to be kept down at that level.

Which is really for some people.

Yeah.

And why it's important to like have those conversations with your partner early on to be like for the betterment of this relationship and for us to last long term in a happy dynamic, both of us have to put the work in.

Both of us have to, you know, find a therapist, find a shaman, do acupuncture, eat healthy, work out, whatever, whatever.

This works for you.

It has to be a part of the mix.

And if your goal is to have a good relationship.

Yeah.

I will say I personally have gone through, I think that drastic in the difference.

And then I guess through individual therapy it's like, whoa, who would have thought the relationship could be like, so like more fulfilling and happy and, and I don't think, I don't know.

I. I feel like it's hard to get out of that because you do want to be like, oh, I'm not the only one that like, has the, the problem and it wasn't me.

But I don't know, it's.

There's a lot of ego.

Yes, Yes.

I would say.

Yeah, I, I think that's.

This is always a little unnerving when people hear this, but like, the statistics of divorce for licensed marriage and family therapists or like, providers whose specialty it is for relationships are higher than the national average, not lower.

Wow.

Right.

Because we are, we are for.

We're in a field where we are forced to constantly, like, work on our own stuff to be ethical and good providers.

Plus you have so many like, educational credits you have to do to maintain licensure.

But if your partner is not growing at the same rate, it becomes, it starts to feel more like a parent child hierarchy.

The farther you get away, the more you're aware of their, like, their wounds, their necessary healing.

Sometimes you understand their emotions before they even have been able to, literally.

Yeah.

And it feels.

That imbalance feels kind of yucky for all parties.

It feels more like a parent child, which is not sexy.

That's true.

So is moral of the story, like, when you're not seeing eye to eye and like, just see a therapist, is that like the only resolution, really?

I mean, I think if you have really effective repair processes and you know how to drop out of the situational, like, content and context and into the core emotional need.

Yeah.

You can do that on your own.

Right.

It's.

It's never about the dishes.

Ever.

It's never about the dishes.

It's about feeling unseen for your contributions in the relationship.

It's about feeling feelings of inequality or unfairness.

It's about like feeling betrayed.

There's always core stuff.

If you don't learn how to drop right into that conversation and express your needs, then, yeah, you're going to need a third party to mediate that conversation.

But that's doable.

It just requires you to put your ego to the side and step into vulnerability, which is sometimes the hardest part.

Right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Stephanie, you actually just a few moments ago taught me that there are more than one reason to have sex.

And it's not just to make babies.

100%.

Yeah.

There's so many.

Some are unhealthy.

Right.

Like, to placate or appease someone because they're annoying you is not a good reason to have sex.

But outside of just like feeding and reinforcing the intimate bond with your partner or procreating healthy examples of reasons to have sex include to organically improve your hormone production.

Which means, like, the.

More.

There are studies out there that show you can stave off the onset of menopause if you have sex two to three times per week.

Wow.

What if you can't have sex?

Do you just masturbate?

Sorry, I'm.

Seriously.

It does the same thing.

If you're activating those reproductive functions and flooding your body with the sex hormones, your body, you're giving the feedback communication to your body that you're still using and therefore still need these processes.

So it's going to keep producing sex hormones for you rather than kill them all.

I didn't know that.

That is, like, who would have thought?

But it makes so much sense.

It's like, of course your body is gonna try to keep itself in the state that.

Yeah, like, if you're saying, hey, like you said, I'm losing these hormones.

Yeah, exactly, exactly.

There have also been studies done that for, like, pain response, pain management.

Sorry, if you hear chickens in the background, that's just Hawaii.

I love that.

For pain management, we.

There have been really, really effective studies that show sex, like orgasm is equally as effective at treating migraine pain than traditional like triptans, which is amazing.

So if you're feeling pain, which is interesting because a lot of people come into my office and they're like, I have a lot of fibromyalgia.

I have migraines.

I have these, like, stomach cramps.

I'm just not.

If I'm feeling physically uncomfortable, I don't want to have sex.

And I can understand, like, I have a lot of medical conditions as well.

I can certainly understand that initial, like, you know, revolting, again, physical.

But after the sex, after the post orgasm, your pain levels are objectively less than they were beforehand, which is pretty amazing, right?

And that's free.

That's like, no, no negative side effects from, you know, medications.

It's.

It's just something cool that you can do for your body when your body needs it.

Yeah.

So I get migraines a lot.

And there was a time like a few months ago and my husband was like, well, we should have sex because that.

That'll help your headache.

And we were laughing like, ha, ha, ha.

Because usually that's the joke.

I have a headache.

I don't want to do it.

Right.

But it did, really, in my experience.

Like, I feel like it only alleviates it for like five minutes and then it's like, back.

Right.

Oh, okay.

I mean, no.

I don't know.

I'm just saying.

Sorry, I don't know why I said.

Right.

I was trying to hear you.

I wanted you to feel heard.

Thank you.

I feel heard and I feel related with.

I'm so sorry.

Like, right.

No, but for me it helped.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It really depends.

Everybody's biochemistry is different.

Like, like how?

However much like phenylethylalamine is flooding your system, for some people it's very little.

For other people it's a lot post orgasm.

I've never heard that word phenylethylamine.

Oh, pea, you probably heard that it's in like chocolate.

That's why people are chocoholics, because it feels addictive.

Okay.

PEA is the sex hormone that's flooded with like novelty.

So think of new relationship energy, the honeymoon phase.

That's all PEA Right.

Nice.

Okay.

Yeah.

So it really just depends on what hormones are flooding your brain at any given time.

And sex can be a huge driver for those floods.

But the amount of sex hormones that are, that are released for each of those experience kind of differs from person to person.

Okay.

At the very least physical touch.

And it doesn't have to be like orgasm dependent necessarily, but physical touch, we're very social creatures.

Any kind of physical touch is going to calm the nervous system and help like reduce pain responses.

It's just, it has to be done like if you have certain pain points, you obviously don't want to be doing like an untrained hard massage on those pain points with your partner.

But you know, be mindful that physical touch in any kind of capacity really does flood your brain with feel good hormones that counteract whatever negative experiences you're having.

Okay.

Yeah.

There's so many reasons, so many really good reasons for sex for a good percentage.

I believe the statistic is 18% from Rosemary Mason's like research on female sexual cycle.

Okay.

15 to 18% of the population, women.

And like predominantly women, the physical, the psychological desire and the physical like physiological arousal, those stages are flip flopped.

Which means before your brain can tell you that you want and are interested and open to sex sex, you need to have some level of stimulation to communicate to your brain that you might be interested.

So for men it's reversed.

And that was the traditional like old school cycle because of course it was based off of like male sexual response, which is always going to be like physio, I'm sorry, psychological desire that activates like you know, flooding of blood to the, to the reproductive area, which is what physiological arousal is.

Okay.

For women a lot of times there's A reverse.

So there needs to be, like, some buffer step for you if your partner is reaching out for a bid for connection and is like, hey, would you like to connect?

I would.

I'm.

I'm missing you.

Right?

Yeah.

Before saying, no, absolutely not.

Maybe another time, maybe another day.

Because you don't have that desire.

You want to buffer steps.

You're not saying yes.

Right.

You're saying, I would be interested in maybe you rubbing my forearm for a couple minutes while we're sitting on this couch.

Or maybe you can, like, I don't know.

I hear feet rubs a lot.

I hear head scratches, like, you know, scalp massages.

Some level of physical touch to stimulate so that you have the means to evaluate if you're interested or not.

Does that make sense?

Wow.

Instead of just shutting the other person down.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

I like that a lot because I feel like I'm one of those people that maybe I'm just always flooded down there because it's easy for me to say, sure, let's go.

But I have had partners who do not have that kind of drive.

And it's like, okay, well, wait, don't say no yet.

Let's do a little bit of.

Of just some touching.

Nice.

Like, consensually.

Right.

But I think that's nice.

Okay.

Yeah.

And for.

For the record, any bid for connection should always be responded to.

It doesn't have to be responded to in the exact way that it was requested.

But if your partner is reaching out for connection, it's.

It's considered an attachment injury if you just say no and then walk away.

Right.

There should always be some level of negotiation for you to be like.

Like, I see that you're wanting to connect, and I love that you want to connect with me.

I am not interested in connecting in that particular way.

But what I can offer is this or this.

What are you looking for?

You know what I mean?

Like, there has to be a re.

Every.

A response and engagement back.

Otherwise, the energy that they've just contributed for the relationship falls immediately out of your dynamic and can't recirculate back.

Yeah.

Bids is one of my favorite words.

And so my husband and I, we do kind of.

We don't call it bidding.

We call, oh, my God, I just left my head.

Because we haven't had to use it in so long.

But we.

That's a good thing.

That sounds very cocky.

But it was like, for this example, we'll use bids, and it's like, for every missed bid, you have five chips that you got to put in to repair that.

And so that was something that we always remembered.

It was the cup.

And for every missed man, maybe it was bit, but that just doesn't sound.

That doesn't sound right to me.

But it was.

You know, we have a cup, we warn each other, like, oh, hey, the cup is, like, becoming empty.

And then it's like, oh, I need to fill that up.

And so realizing, oh, we can't miss any more of their requests for whatever it is because we got a five to make up for that one time that we let them down.

Oh.

Because I feel like.

I mean, you're right.

Like, it takes way more positive memories than, like, to overcome a negative memory.

Right?

Yeah.

The ratio is five to one.

That's what you did.

Yeah.

You must have done some Gottman work you're familiar with.

It was Gottman.

Okay.

But I feel ridiculous that I can't remember what word we use.

I don't think it was bid, but maybe it was.

It's okay.

Spoon.

Yeah.

That's when everyone uses right now.

Wait, are you serious?

Yeah.

Oh, I've never heard of that.

Okay.

Spice Theory is.

Is awesome.

It's from a disability community.

Right.

Like, you.

You wake up with a whole.

With a number of spoons every day, and every task requires you to give a certain amount of spoons.

But people who have disabilities wake up with less spoons, and so they're more protective of how much energy give away.

Because when you're out, you're out at the end of the day, right?

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

That was another really good thing to kind of think about.

Yeah, I love it.

I feel like to finish answering one of our listeners questions, when we age, sex doesn't become as easy as it was when we were younger.

Obviously, we run out of that, like, natural lubricant.

Like, how does the female.

How can a female still enjoy sex as they age and it's just harder to become comfortable with?

Does that question make sense?

Yes.

And asking it wrong?

Well, this particular person who asked us to talk about this, she wanted it to be clear that sex doesn't go, like, become obsolete after that, like the age of 70, per se.

And so I don't know if she was saying, like, it gets harder or not.

I don't know what she was saying, really.

Generally what you hear is that it is harder.

Yeah.

But the desire doesn't go away.

Yeah.

She just was kind of like, I just want people to know that we still have sex.

Yes.

100%.

Yeah, absolutely.

It's.

It's weird how that's like a.

Because I hear it all the time.

Right.

Like the expectation of oh, we're too old for that.

Right?

You do.

Okay.

And when you look at like statistics of STIs, STDs in the US the nursing homes are the highest rated communities because you don't.

You have unprotected sex in nursing, you don't need them to protect anymore.

I have heard this.

Didn't realize it was true.

I did not know that.

And so yeah, it's.

And again, for, for a reason.

Right.

Like part of the reason, healthy reasons for having sex is having fun.

Like connect with your body, learn to have fun or, or re.

Experience adventure in a new way.

Maybe you can't drive to the beach or to the whatever, but maybe you can have a different type of sex and that's adventurous and stimulating for you.

You know, there are so many.

Is it a myth that that sex gets harder or does it get harder or I guess now I'm not sure what we're asking.

So it gets more painful if you don't accommodate your aging bodies.

Right.

For women, the once you hit like perimenopause into menopause, your, your lubrication declines and your elasticity declines, which means the natural canal gets.

That's less elastic, less like spongy and shorter.

Right.

Okay.

So not only is there more friction if we're not accommodating like secondary lubricant into the mix, but you quite literally don't have enough space to accommodate your partner anymore.

And so I think it's, I think it's a misconception because there's pain can be very quickly conditioned to sex.

Sex, if you're experiencing pain and you're just trying to fight through the moment, assuming it's going to get better in the next couple of times.

Don't, don't, don't fight through pain.

That's how we condition this fear response, this aversion to sex very quickly.

So I think we just need to be more.

We need to talk about the effects of menopause on aging bodies and how you accommodate some of those symptoms so that you can store story and have it be a pleasurable experience.

Yeah.

Now I'm glad that you mentioned about like how as you age you just.

The electicity is lower and so you just don't physically have the space.

I one time heard that when you're aroused you like, you only have so much space and when you're aroused it, you get more space.

But like how Can I ask this in like a non vulgar way?

Just ask it.

We're just ask it.

You can blame it on me.

Melissa said get vulgar.

I.

Okay, but it shouldn't have to be.

We don't have.

It's not vulgar.

We're breaking stereotypes.

We are.

We will talk about more of this like in another episode.

Or you know, I have friends on dating websites or whatever.

And you see, I have male friends that are.

Okay, this is how we'll approach it.

It.

I have male friends who are on dating websites.

And some of these websites you'll have girls that are like, oh, I need eight inches or more to like be satisfied.

And it's like, you don't have space for that.

Like, I don't understand.

Like, do people have different space?

Like, it's not like one, one size fits all.

Like, it's just mind boggling to me.

Like, why do some people need that?

That sounds.

Who wants their organs being rearranged?

Well, just everyone's different because I would imagine girls are also different since even all guys have different size equipment.

I don't know.

Tell us.

Shed some light.

Okay, so again, everybody's different.

During the perimenopause phase.

It's.

For some women, your interest in sexual, like experience dramatically increases before it dramatically drops in menopause.

For some it goes.

It's a progressive, gradual decline in interest.

But for others it's at high peak and then menopause hits and then it's a drastic drop.

Oh, wow.

So that can explain some of it.

Because if you're physiologically aroused, your cavity is expanding beyond the average 4 inches and can accommodate more.

That's why I was so amazed it was four inches.

And so it's like, where the hell does eight go?

For.

For some women, like, as we age, not only is the elasticity declining, but.

And this is not just sexual, this is across your whole body.

Our sensitivity, our nerve endings are no longer as sensitive.

That's why when you have like, like when you have an elder in your family and you're like, how did you get that nasty bruise on your body?

What did you do?

They're like, oh, I have no idea.

I don't know when that happened.

I didn't feel a thing.

Because your, your skin, your body becomes desensitized and that, that impacts sexual experience as well.

So sometimes people are wanting a little bit rougher, a little bit harder, or just a different size because it increases sensation response.

Does that make sense?

But that's, that's very unique person to person based on, like, how they're responding to the hormone changes.

Yeah, Okay, I got you.

I still think that no matter who you are, your organs are being rearranged, and I just think that's insane.

Maybe that's all they can feel there.

There is a thing called a uterine orgasm, right where you're.

You're coming up like that.

That wall that people feel is getting hit and you're like, ow.

That does not feel good.

For some people, after you're in an aroused state, it can't be before.

It's going to be painful if you hit it before.

But hitting that kind of, like, cap of the cavity is actually activating orgasm.

Like a different kind of orgasm from clitoral.

It's just a different sensation.

So for some.

For some women, they enjoy that at the height of arousal.

And maybe there are other women who are requesting deeper.

Okay, I know we had an episode on types of orgasms.

I don't remember that being one, but I could just not remember.

Oh, I don't remember.

There were more than I knew.

Yeah.

Seven or nine.

So Interesting.

Yeah, there's.

Yeah, we should.

We should do a.

We should do an inter.

Like a podcast just on the female.

There's a massive stage, like a scale for how you activate altered states of consciousness or extended state workout women.

It's really.

What is really.

You said it's a scale.

Is there a name of it?

Is the name of that scale or you're just saying.

No, there is there.

I did not make it.

So let me.

I'm just wanting to make sure I remember so we can.

Yeah.

Coordinate again.

Yep.