Artwork for podcast Qiological Podcast
048 Conversing with the body-mind_ using words to get beyond words • Nick Pole
Episode 484th September 2018 • Qiological Podcast • Michael Max
00:00:00 01:14:18

Shownotes

In acupuncture school we learn about the 10 questions. But really, the questions are endless. And we are given the image of the scholar/doctor who doesn't say much, just looks at the tongue, takes the pulse and then has everything she needs to treat the patient. But that image does not fit the clinical reality in which most of us find ourselves.

Learning to ask the right kinds of questions. Learning to listen into the places that are silent, or hidden, these are skills that require the honing of time and attention,

In this episode we discuss modern brain science, the verbal and non-verbal aspects of our brains, and how the body has its own multi-textured way of communicating that is often baffling to the voice in our heads that trying to make sense of things.

Listen in for a discussion on the use of words to get beyond words. 

 


Head on over to the show notes page for more information about this episode and for links to the resources discussed in the interview. 

Transcripts

Michael Max:

Line 17 from the.day, Jean says something to the effect that the

Michael Max:

leader that governs best is invisible.

Michael Max:

When things happen, the people say we did it ourselves in similar fashion

Michael Max:

in today's podcast conversation.

Michael Max:

Our guests said our work is to allow our patients to be able to hear what's

Michael Max:

going on inside of themselves without imposing our ideas or structures.

Michael Max:

Do we trust our patients to really have the answers to their problems?

Michael Max:

It's a good question.

Michael Max:

Most of modern medicine holds the body to be untrustworthy and most of

Michael Max:

us well, we spend our days helping people whose body apparently has failed

Michael Max:

dysfunction or mutiny against them.

Michael Max:

What are your thoughts and beliefs about the trustworthiness of the body?

Michael Max:

It's a helpful question to keep in mind as we get into today's conversation.

Michael Max:

Hi, I'm Michael max, and this is Sheila.

Michael Max:

Welcome to the anniversary show celebrating one year of the podcast.

Michael Max:

And just a few minutes, we're going to get into a fantastic discussion on

Michael Max:

how we communicate with our patients.

Michael Max:

We're going to look into how to dialogue with the body itself by

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using words to get around words.

Michael Max:

It doesn't, that just sounds delicious, really Chinese medicine.

Michael Max:

But first I got a few things I want to say.

Michael Max:

I want to start with thanking you, you, the listeners as a podcasting pal of

Michael Max:

mine and Taiwan pointed out some time ago, when you begin a podcast, all you

Michael Max:

have is your integrity and no audience.

Michael Max:

Wow.

Michael Max:

What a difference a year makes.

Michael Max:

I want to also thank the sponsors who make the show possible.

Michael Max:

The guests who bring you the amazing stories and learning and

Michael Max:

teaching that you get from this.

Michael Max:

And especially, I want to thank our patients because without our patient.

Michael Max:

Without the motivation to do the work that we do.

Michael Max:

Well, we wouldn't be doing this stuff and you wouldn't be listening to this podcast.

Michael Max:

I have thoroughly enjoyed all the conversations over the past

Michael Max:

year, and I've learned something from each one of them still.

Michael Max:

There's a few that are my favorites as they moved me in some kind of a deep way.

Michael Max:

First one is the one I did way back at the beginning with Debra bats on treating

Michael Max:

back pain during pregnancy fantastic show about how we can help and serve

Michael Max:

women where Western medicine basically fails them back pain during pregnancy.

Michael Max:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

Debra Betts is the show to listen to the recent one was Sabina Williams

Michael Max:

on chapter five of the, and about the resident manifestations, a union yarn.

Michael Max:

Oh man.

Michael Max:

That was a great conversation.

Michael Max:

And that book is pure poetry.

Michael Max:

Fantastic.

Michael Max:

You want to check that out special?

Michael Max:

Thanks to Sandy camper and Catherine Numeroff ski.

Michael Max:

Talking to them about guash has changed my practice because after

Michael Max:

speaking with them, I'm not using this stuff on a regular basis.

Michael Max:

It's made a big difference to my patients.

Michael Max:

That's a show that if you don't know much about guash out or you're

Michael Max:

not using it, you're gonna want to check it out, hanging out with Jason

Michael Max:

Robertson and talking about Dr.

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Wong and channel, how patient, well, that show took me back to when

Michael Max:

we were both hanging in Beijing.

Michael Max:

That's a fun one to listen to, and you're going to learn some great

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things about channel palpation.

Michael Max:

And then there's the show at the beginning of the year, talking

Michael Max:

with Andy Ellis about herbs.

Michael Max:

Hey, thanks to Andy for that suggestion to go study.

Michael Max:

Some Chinese and Taiwan was for years well spat and finally check out the

Michael Max:

show of Toby dailies on som acupuncture, that interview and his article over

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in the journal of Chinese medicine.

Michael Max:

It got me so fired up.

Michael Max:

I'm actively studying this method, right?

Michael Max:

There are 47 episodes out there right now.

Michael Max:

So if you're fairly new to qiological, well, get busy, plenty of clinically

Michael Max:

useful material for your hair.

Michael Max:

A couple of housekeeping things before we get into today's conversation.

Michael Max:

First, you might've noticed the lead into the show's different

Michael Max:

as we move into the next year.

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I'm dropping the intro that you're probably used to hearing.

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In fact, you're probably sick of hearing.

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I figured that people who find their way to the podcast, you

Michael Max:

know what you're looking for.

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You don't need an introduction.

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And for the folks that are new to the show, well, you'll find

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out soon enough what it's about.

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So as we go forward, we're going to be jumping into the meat of

Michael Max:

the conversation much sooner.

????:

Hello, geological listeners.

????:

This is Josephine Spilker.

????:

I've been on a journey with Chinese medicine for over 30 years.

????:

Now, since we're here in a show about communication, I want to share that.

????:

One of the main ways I like to communicate is to questions.

????:

I love questions.

????:

They open us up to new places and feelings.

????:

They can provoke insight and lead to all kinds of creativity.

????:

So let's consider this question today.

????:

What do you think is the most important ingredient in any prescription?

????:

Whether it be an herbal prescription and acupuncture.

????:

Well, let's down recommendation.

????:

I'll be back a little later in the show to share some thoughts on this Sydney.

Michael Max:

Hey everybody.

Michael Max:

Welcome to this special anniversary edition of qiological.

Michael Max:

My guest today is NIC pole.

Michael Max:

He's one of qiological listeners who responded to the recent invitation

Michael Max:

to join me here on the show.

Michael Max:

Wow.

Michael Max:

It's hard to believe a whole year has gone by already.

Michael Max:

And here we are at show number 47.

Michael Max:

You know what that tells me?

Michael Max:

It tells me there's lots of really interesting people to talk to about

Michael Max:

Chinese medicine in our field.

Michael Max:

And it tells me that we not only have a rich tradition.

Michael Max:

We have a vital living medicine here in the.

Michael Max:

I am particularly interested in is sitting down with Nick today for this

Michael Max:

discussion, because he has a deep interest in how we use words enough, so that he

Michael Max:

wrote a book, words that touch today.

Michael Max:

We're going to explore how we connect with our patients and how we can go

Michael Max:

far beyond the usual 10 questions.

Michael Max:

So as to engage with the deeper structures and resources of our patients

Michael Max:

that lives in the body, Nick, welcome

????:

to qiological.

????:

Hi, Michael, and thank you very much for having me on your anniversary

????:

show and congratulations, indeed, such a fantastically interesting bunch

????:

of people that you've got together.

????:

Okay.

????:

Oh man.

????:

Well, we just

Michael Max:

have interesting people in our field.

Michael Max:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

Hey, I'm curious.

Michael Max:

How did you find out about qiological?

Michael Max:

What, uh, just what got you

????:

clued in?

????:

I can't remember it just, you know, things come to you on the internet

????:

when they're supposed to come.

????:

I guess

Michael Max:

it's so true.

Michael Max:

Isn't it?

Michael Max:

Oh my goodness.

Michael Max:

Well, Hey Nick, I'd like to start a bit with your background and what got

Michael Max:

you interested in the use of language

Michael Max:

as part of the healing process?

Nick Pole:

Oh, well, um, well narrative is a, is a subject in itself.

Nick Pole:

We'll do we believe the stories we tell about ourselves and do they really matter?

Nick Pole:

Oh, if you want a story and a.

Nick Pole:

Publishers like stories, especially if you got just published a book I,

Nick Pole:

something which does feel true in a, in a bodily sense for me, this getting

Nick Pole:

interested in language goes back to me and my relationship with my dad.

Nick Pole:

My dad was an academic.

Nick Pole:

Um, he spent a lot of time writing books, not that much time as, as most dads of his

Nick Pole:

generation with, uh, in, in being a dad.

Nick Pole:

But the way he did show his feelings for us and the way he felt, you know,

Nick Pole:

seemed to come alive as a dad was when he was reading a stories, quoting

Nick Pole:

Shakespeare, making language games, it was all about language and relationship.

Nick Pole:

Guess.

Nick Pole:

And I've told that story a few times, but it's still, you know,

Nick Pole:

I still feel that it is true.

Nick Pole:

It's genuine.

Nick Pole:

And so I started at a certain point, burned out in my normal professional

Nick Pole:

career as is often the case with people who get into complimentary therapy.

Nick Pole:

I got interested in acupuncture.

Nick Pole:

A friend of mine said, well, you're not looking great.

Nick Pole:

And then go and see an acupuncturist.

Nick Pole:

I went to someone who was practicing five element acupuncture.

Nick Pole:

I got intrigued.

Nick Pole:

She told me I would be good at doing something in this area.

Nick Pole:

And, uh, I, I'm sorry to say this, but I always knew I didn't

Nick Pole:

want to stick needles into.

Nick Pole:

And eventually I found shiatsu and I just felt my hands knew.

Nick Pole:

Something knew a lot that, that I, that my head did not Rand that my hands connected

Nick Pole:

to the heart in a way, which my head.

Nick Pole:

And so I got into shout, so, and I was just fascinated and I got a

Nick Pole:

really new, powerful sense of purpose.

Nick Pole:

I had very inspirational teachers, some Jade, Jade, winter, Jade.

Nick Pole:

Yeah.

Nick Pole:

Winter Jane was talking about Pauline's a Saki.

Nick Pole:

Uh, she came over to England each year and she was working then with cliff

Nick Pole:

Andrews, who was one of my teachers too.

Nick Pole:

And they, they both started doing stuff that, um, w w was really

Nick Pole:

interesting, really fascinating, you know, relating to energy, relating to

Nick Pole:

cheesy, relating to key as we call it.

Nick Pole:

In ways that I just, you know, I couldn't figure out what the hell were they doing?

Nick Pole:

How could they stay on this stuff?

Nick Pole:

How could

Michael Max:

they, well, could they see it and how could they feel it?

Michael Max:

You know, you're, you're over here on the shiatsu side of the house.

Michael Max:

I love talking to you guys because I really do, because while many of us

Michael Max:

acupuncturist work in a palpatory way.

Michael Max:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

You guys have these conversations with the body from such a deep sense of.

Michael Max:

Place, I don't even know what you call that place.

Michael Max:

Just deep, deep

????:

sensing.

????:

Well, I think that's not to digress too much from my narrative, but for a moment,

????:

I think that's a very important point.

????:

You don't even know what to call it.

????:

And that's a central part of why I felt I needed to write the book to explain.

????:

There are some good neurological reasons why, but just to come

????:

back to the story for a moment.

????:

Yeah.

????:

So I got really into doing this yet.

????:

So I, I got invited to start teaching at the college in London where I'd studied.

????:

And then after a while something started sort of tapping me on the shoulder

????:

and saying, This isn't this isn't the whole story, Nick, and, and I didn't

????:

know quite what it was, but in order to study, to find a way to understand

????:

what those great teachers were doing, I started learning NLP, which I'm pretty

????:

sure you have some acquaintance with,

Michael Max:

I have a little bit it's it's, it's, you know,

Michael Max:

fairly in the culture these days.

Michael Max:

I think a lot of people have been exposed to the structures and ways

Michael Max:

that we talk really shape our reality.

????:

And I heard, uh I've uh, first of all, I, I heard that it had something

????:

to do with how the, how we are different senses relate to each other, which is

????:

very much how palpation works, how, how, the way we touch or the way we

????:

look consists of synesthesias Cineses eyes into, into our conscious awareness.

????:

And, and I also heard there was this NLP conference coming up where

????:

John Hicks, who was one of the.

????:

Co-founders of, of the college of integrated Chinese

????:

medicine here in London.

????:

He studied with Jr.

????:

Whereas Lee in depth.

????:

And he, he wanted to find out how Worsley did his stuff.

????:

Cause Worsley, uh, you know, didn't reveal all that much about his

????:

kind of the magic of his mastery.

????:

And so John hex started using NLP.

????:

What's the word, you know, without actually telling him, I think

????:

Worsley got wise to this and, uh, it didn't go too well, but.

????:

Certainly that was an inspiration for me, that that one Korean culture is, could

????:

be trying to, as they say, and not model how somebody uses their delivers the

????:

magic and NLP, if you, if you remember started from that idea of modeling,

????:

how great therapists work, Virginia sit here for its the founder of gestalt and

????:

Milton Erickson, the random hypnotherapy and 20th century America, they were

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modeling these, these people, uh, and finding out how they did what they did.

????:

And out of that.

????:

Called clean language, which is the model that I now use the structure

????:

that I now use developed, um, that also out of the work of namely and

????:

chiefly out of the work of, uh, a New Zealand psychologist called David Grove.

????:

Anyway, coming back to my story, um, all of this exposure to seeing people

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using language and using rapport and getting changed to happen without

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even touching them, I thought, wow, this is equally amazing to the.

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And probably if I'm honest, I I'd say I probably wanted to give up

????:

shots and just do that, but something didn't allow that to happen.

????:

And I'm so, so grateful that it didn't because now what I've got I

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feel is really what works for me.

????:

It's a combination of listening to language and listening to words,

????:

I, sorry, listening to language and listening to the body, listening to the

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cheek and noticing how they interact.

????:

So fluently and fluidly and resonantly, and in a way, if you'd leave out the

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language, you're leaving out a huge part of the person that you're working.

????:

And I'll go into that a bit in a bit more detail, but, um, that's the story.

????:

Does, does it make sense?

????:

It has a happy ending.

Michael Max:

Well, to me it totally makes sense.

Michael Max:

One of the things that I love about acupuncture and, and, you know, and when

Michael Max:

I say acupuncture, I'm really, I should probably say east Asian medicine, right?

Michael Max:

I mean, this includes Twain OD this include shiatsu.

Michael Max:

This includes all the things that we do that allow us to interact with

Michael Max:

the, with the organism, let's say.

Michael Max:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

Right.

Michael Max:

And one of the things I think is so fantastic is we can use our hands

Michael Max:

or we can use our needles and people can have deep, deep experiences

Michael Max:

that they might have after.

Michael Max:

Months or even years of therapy.

Michael Max:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

Because something in the body just shifts and eventually it

Michael Max:

will float up into consciousness.

Michael Max:

Now the words can be really helpful and things like therapy can be helpful

Michael Max:

because you're using words to fill in all these blank spaces that, you know,

Michael Max:

people kind of get lost in whether that's a psychological kerfuffle

Michael Max:

or, you know, some sort of, uh, you know, more physical kind of thing.

Michael Max:

Of course we know from the work that we do, that the body and

Michael Max:

the minor and integrated fabric, so we can really work anywhere.

Michael Max:

And so I'm particularly interested in how we can use both the words we use and

Michael Max:

the ways that we touch to, to help people get more information about themselves.

Michael Max:

Cause it seems when people get more information about themselves, they

Michael Max:

often just can sort things right out.

????:

Yes.

????:

To bring that information into consciousness does help in my opinion.

????:

And also that other model, which quite a few charismatic acupuncture people have

????:

used, you know, you don't need to talk to them, just put the needles in, just listen

????:

to the pulses and the change will happen.

????:

Um, that's, that's one way of thinking about it for me.

????:

I think it's almost like a hair in a tortoise thing.

????:

I prefer the tortoise approach.

????:

I feel that if I can encourage the person I'm working with, uh, to develop

????:

a more mindful relationship, first of all, with a symptom that the court

????:

brought them along, secondly, with their whole mind, body or body mind,

????:

they would call it, then they will be.

????:

Developing, uh, a way of being with themselves and being in life that allows

????:

these things to come into consciousness.

????:

I think we put a lot of energy into keeping things away from our

????:

consciousness and holding them down.

????:

And that's all I say to people that my only marketing ploy these days is say,

????:

I'm helping you to develop a more mind or relationship with your own body.

????:

I don't say I'm going to help cure particular symptoms that, you know,

????:

if that happens, that's great.

????:

That's how it works for me.

????:

Yeah.

????:

I

Michael Max:

w I want to dig into this because you just said that you'd like to

Michael Max:

help people have a deeper relationship with the symptoms that they have.

Michael Max:

And, and, and this rings a bell for me, this really, this, this,

Michael Max:

this just goes all the way through.

Michael Max:

And the reason that it does is because by and large people come to

Michael Max:

us because they got a symptom and they want to get rid of the dang.

Michael Max:

And yet I've seen so many times in my practice, this symptom

Michael Max:

is some kind of messenger.

Michael Max:

It's some kind of placeholder, it's some part of them, a very loyal part of them

Michael Max:

that is not going away until a certain message gets heard as a practitioner.

Michael Max:

At this point, I've even gotten to the point where if people have a certain

Michael Max:

symptom, I want to make, I want to be darn sure that I don't take away something

Michael Max:

that they actually need to listen to.

Michael Max:

Yes.

Michael Max:

I'd like to know more about how you help people deepen their relationship

Michael Max:

with a symptom so that maybe it can get heard, or it can get resolved in

Michael Max:

whatever way it needs to get resolved.

Michael Max:

So that things actually do get resolved and not just silenced and

Michael Max:

sort of kicked further down the road.

????:

Yes.

????:

I think that's a really important point about the power of, um, things

????:

like acupuncture and herbal medicine.

????:

You know, they can actually make changes, which are not necessarily appropriate

????:

for the whole ecology of the person.

????:

They can just flick a few switches and maybe rather like hypnotherapy

????:

hypnotherapy is incredibly powerful, but it only works for a bit.

????:

If the, if the ecology of the person doesn't really want that change.

????:

So that's why I'm talking about the tortoise approach is if you, if you'd

????:

go more slowly and you work with people who are genuinely willing to

????:

explore this, then you, you tend to get change happening at exactly the

????:

right pay pace or the whole system.

????:

Um, So I usually begin just with a little kind of mindfulness,

????:

meditative awareness process, asking a person just to sit quietly.

????:

If they don't know anything about mindfulness, I just

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talk them through it a bit.

????:

If they do.

????:

And most people do nowadays, it seems if they do, then they just enter

????:

into that kind of state themselves.

????:

And we just begin in our shared field of togetherness to use some very,

????:

very simple questions, to help them explore the sense of the symptom

????:

and what it might be telling them or where else it might be leading them.

????:

And so on very rapidly in those cases, the body mind just loves it.

????:

It just says, wow, somebody is listening to me at last and it begins

????:

to unfold in its own non-verbal way.

????:

The kind of links and connections that we need to become aware of.

????:

If we want to work with this, then at a certain point, I just ask

????:

people, would you like to lay down?

????:

Now we can explore this more with the shiatsu and, um, energy work and we

????:

can carry on talking, or the person can just drift off into some other zone, or

????:

indeed I, as I work and drift off into some other zone non-cognitive zone.

????:

And by the end of all that, um, I, you know, people find that the

????:

changes that have happened are, are the right changes and they're not

????:

too fast and they're not too slow.

????:

Seems to be the way that it works well for me.

Michael Max:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

Can you give us an example

????:

of that?

????:

Um, an example of the,

Michael Max:

like, like, like some of the questions, I mean, you know, in,

Michael Max:

in Chinese medicine school, we learned these 10 questions that we're supposed

Michael Max:

to ask about this and that, and, and they're helpful, but it sounds like you're

Michael Max:

doing a whole other line of questioning.

????:

Absolutely.

????:

And I, I just wanted to emphasize at the beginning here that the diet, you know,

????:

the diagnostic questions, the health history questions, that's another matter.

????:

And that's really important.

????:

I'm not saying I don't ask those.

????:

And obviously, you know, have you seen your, your medical practitioner

????:

and those important questions?

????:

Um, I'm not getting rid of them.

????:

I'm just, once we get through that, we get into this place where the mind

????:

and the body can start connecting.

????:

And if I could.

????:

Perhaps this one bit of theory.

????:

I I've got a little case study.

????:

I can show you here, but there's a chapter in my book devoted to the

????:

work of a very brilliant British psychiatrist called, uh, Ian McGilchrist.

????:

He spent 20 years on a book called the master and his Emissary and

????:

essentially, sorry, the master and master and his Emissary.

????:

Yeah.

????:

Uh, and that's a metaphor for the relationship between the right side of

????:

the brain and the left side of the brain.

????:

And almost single-handedly, he has reclaimed this fascinating subject in, um,

????:

for neuroscience because it was beginning to be ignored by neuroscientists, brought

????:

it back to the center of attention.

????:

Why on earth have we, and all animals evolved with a brain that

????:

is split into two separate heart.

????:

And I'm not going to go into detail.

????:

You can see plenty on, on the web about his approach, but for me, it was

????:

a real, uh, insight into what we're really doing in, in mind-body therapy.

????:

What we're really doing when we're trying to communicate with key with key.

????:

And the bottom line is simply this, that for most people, the left hemisphere

????:

is the one that works with language.

????:

That's where the language centers are in the terms of content.

????:

The left hemisphere is the side that loves to label things, to give things

????:

names, to put things into categories.

????:

It has interesting tendencies and predispositions that it's,

????:

it is a bit like a manager.

Michael Max:

It doesn't, you know, and it loves to think it knows what's going on.

Michael Max:

Exactly.

????:

And, and that's the, that's the Emissary part.

????:

Interestingly for us, it is.

????:

Way of thinking about the body is as a machine made up of separate parts, which

????:

when they go wrong, need to be fixed.

????:

And I think that's how most of our clients usually come in at the beginning

????:

that they're in their managerial mind.

????:

There they've got something that's gone wrong in the body.

????:

They're probably even annoyed with it by now and fed up and frustrated.

????:

And so Paige, why they're in

Michael Max:

our office

????:

and that very, very left hemisphere approach is, is dominant.

????:

And, and it is usually dominant in our daily life.

????:

It's the manager that gets us through our day everyday life, the right hemisphere.

????:

On the other hand, that's an interesting expression.

????:

Isn't it?

????:

. The one, which is much more intimately connected with the body in the sense of

????:

the feelings that come up from inside us, from the guts, from the heart, from that

????:

kind of felt sense that they talk about in focusing come up into conscious awareness.

????:

They come into the right side of the brain.

????:

That's the right side.

????:

That is much better equipped to sense and interpret the somatic

????:

information, the emotional information that's coming at us all the time.

????:

And of course, between these two sides of the brain, the neuroscience

????:

geeks in the audience will know.

????:

We have the thing called the Corpus callosum, which is nerve nerve

????:

neurons that connect the two sides, but actually a lot of the neuronal

????:

activity in the Corpus callosum.

????:

Is, um, inhibitory it's like the left side is actually using the bridge to

????:

actually inhibit signals coming across from the right side, vice versa.

????:

Sometimes it's like each side has to be doing its own thing.

????:

And at the same time somehow sampling something of what's going on in the other

????:

side.

Michael Max:

Oh my God.

Michael Max:

It sounds like the American political situation.

????:

I'm sorry.

????:

It just sounds so much like that, which is one why I love Chinese medicine because

????:

Chinese medicine has this metaphor of the human body with all its organs,

????:

as you know, as a governmental system.

????:

Why do we talk about right-wing and left-wing in politics, you

????:

know, it's interesting and it's.

????:

So that's, that's, that's the bottom line in what makes this work for me,

????:

knowing that that's how our brains work and that the right side is always trying

????:

to present information to the left.

????:

And the left is always kind of trying to inhibit it because anything that's new

????:

that the right side is the mindful side.

????:

The right side is the side that's in the moment that's aware of

????:

everything that's going on.

????:

That peripheral vision that you were talking about before we started things

????:

that pop into the peripheral vision are coming in through the right side.

????:

And then the left side is often saying, well, if it hasn't got

????:

a name, if it isn't in one of my categories, I don't recognize it.

????:

It's not happening.

????:

And even

Michael Max:

might be dangerous.

????:

So denial, I guess, lives on the left side of the brain.

????:

And we all have to do a bit of denial to get through the working day, but some

????:

people seem to be really good at it.

????:

Anyway.

????:

So does that make sense as a, as a very, very brief summary of

????:

the neuro science part of this?

Michael Max:

Yeah, yeah, totally.

????:

Does I follow it?

????:

Okay.

????:

And what we're doing when we're asking these kinds of questions, clean language

????:

questions, as it's called, we're using utterly simple questions, which the

????:

left side has to recognize as valid because they're, first of all, their

????:

language, second of all, they're simple and third, all them, they make sense,

????:

but we're using questions to inquire about what is going on in the body.

????:

In that nonverbal place.

????:

So the left side of the brain gets a little confused at first sometime,

????:

but it gradually has to admit that something is going on and you often

????:

hear people saying things like, I don't know where this is coming from,

????:

but I got a funny feeling down here.

????:

We know that sort of thing.

????:

So in a

Michael Max:

way you're using language to, I don't know if the word trick is

Michael Max:

right, but to somehow soothe the left side and calm it down just enough that

Michael Max:

it's less inhibitory on the right side.

Michael Max:

So more information from the right side

????:

can come through.

????:

Absolutely.

????:

That's what we do in any kind of mindfulness process.

????:

Mindfulness is about calming down the left side and.

????:

Opening up access to the information that comes into the right side.

????:

I mean, when somebody starts off from a meditation course or a mindfulness course,

????:

it's the left side that makes a decision.

????:

It's our left side says, oh boy, this is going to be great.

????:

We're going to learn to concentrate better.

????:

We're going to learn to men, men, he's got all this big to-do list and then it

????:

has to actually do the mindfulness bit.

????:

And it thinks, well, I can't do that.

????:

I haven't been allowed to say anything for 30 seconds.

????:

What's going on here.

????:

Yeah.

????:

That's, that's what mindfulness training is about.

????:

Calming down on the left side.

????:

And um, so on.

????:

So I'll give you this little example here, cause you asked her some kind of

????:

example, and this is with a woman who is, you know, pretty connected to her body.

????:

So I wasn't struggling hard and she'd had a few sessions with me already.

????:

She knew what was going on when I'm asking these questions, but she arrived and she

????:

said, First thing I'm exhausted from work.

????:

Okay.

????:

So there's your problem.

????:

I'm exhausted from work and I don't make any presuppositions the point about clean

????:

languages, the therapist, the practitioner makes absolutely no presuppositions

????:

at all about the meaning of that.

????:

That's why it's called clean.

????:

It's supposed to be keeping the clients, the patients space clean

????:

of my staff, my agendas, my desire to help my, um, interpretations,

????:

my diagnoses and all that stuff.

????:

I just keep them all out because the questions are too simple to allow them in.

????:

So my first question is, and where is that sense of exhausted

????:

using her exact word exhausted?

????:

So I'm exhausted from work.

????:

And where is that sense of exhausted?

????:

So that obviously is a direct invitation to, to get some somatic information.

????:

Uh, probably she might say, well, it's in my head, but anyway, that's my question.

????:

Where is exhausted.

????:

And her answer is it feels very tight across here and she just is

????:

across the front of her abdomen.

????:

So she's already into feeling, uh, not that many, you know, you might

????:

find patients, aren't some patients aren't getting into that so quickly,

????:

but she's certainly when I asked her, she becomes aware that it's

????:

very tight across the abdomen.

????:

My next question is just to gather more information.

????:

And is there anything else about really tight across there?

????:

And then she says something interesting.

????:

I really want to do a good job.

????:

I really want to please.

????:

I really want to please them, which is not somatic information.

????:

It's something much deeper.

????:

Isn't it that's like logical stuff.

????:

Okay.

????:

So I don't make any presuppositions again.

????:

I just ask her.

????:

And is there anything else about really want to please.

????:

And she says, well, it gets tighter here.

????:

She suddenly feels across her abdomen that is getting even tighter.

????:

So that was the F the second bit she said was, I really want to please them.

????:

And it gets tighter when she says that.

????:

So now I go back to the first bit, she said, anything else about do a good job?

????:

And then she says another interesting thing that comes from my heart.

????:

Like she's suddenly aware that there's a feeling in our heart about doing a

????:

good job and the way she said it sounded like it was quite a healthy thing.

????:

Whereas it looked pretty much as though the tightening in the abdomen

????:

and really wanting to please him.

????:

Wasn't such a healthy thing.

????:

So already it's kind of for one, one little thing, she said, we're getting

????:

some differentiation, the actual movement of the, of the chairs looking different,

????:

the locations in the body of these.

????:

Uh, things are becoming clearer.

????:

So next, my next question is I D you know, I decide let's go

????:

with the pleased them thing.

????:

Anything else about you really want to please them and tighter there?

????:

So again, I'm using her exact words, which is very important.

????:

And then social awareness, uh, attention comes back to the abdomen and she

????:

says, it's like a layer around me.

Michael Max:

Oh, now it's outside the body.

Michael Max:

Yes,

????:

exactly.

????:

So I'm not, so I say, and what kind of layer around you?

????:

And she says protection, and I say, and is there anything else about protection?

????:

And she says, it comes out from here gesturing again

????:

to the front of the abdomen.

????:

It comes out from here.

????:

So it's now she's really getting into some center.

????:

Whatever it may be of something moving from, out, out from the body

????:

and into the energy field around her.

????:

And it's got something to do with protection.

????:

And I just say, and then what happens?

????:

And she says, it literally takes a lot out of me.

????:

It's draining me.

????:

And that's really interesting.

????:

She's aware that there's this something moving out from the abdomen

????:

and that it's taking something out of her and it's draining her.

????:

So that really does seem to start linking back into first thing about I'm exhausted.

????:

And when I say, and when it's draining you, what would you like to have happen?

????:

Now?

????:

That's a different kind of clean language question.

????:

That's switching, asking, inviting the patient to, um, switch into, well,

????:

what would you like to get from this?

????:

Uh, under the question we use in clean languages.

????:

What would you like to have happen?

????:

So on when it's draining you, what would you like to have happen?

????:

And she said to know better how to look after myself, which is pretty sensible.

????:

And then I asked him, how would that be?

????:

And she said that she didn't S uh, go on about how to look after herself.

????:

She just said, when I said, how would that be?

????:

She said, oh, it's relaxing.

????:

That tight place here is.

????:

In other words, her abdomen was agreeing with her.

????:

She was immediately feeling if that, if she could know better

????:

how to look after herself or abdomen saying, yeah, yeah, please.

????:

That would be a very good idea.

????:

And I'll just relax here a bit, just to show you, I agree with you.

????:

So the body is talking back to her now, and that's, you know,

????:

very, only a few minutes of work there, but the, she is moving.

????:

She has conscious awareness.

????:

She's actually chosen her own kind of outcome here.

????:

It's not me telling her she needs to do.

Michael Max:

All right.

Michael Max:

So now it's not the therapist saying, Hey, you need to, you need

Michael Max:

to take a break, you need a vacation.

????:

Yeah.

????:

And then she can lie down and we can begin the, sort of the energy work, the

????:

Meridian work and carry on, exploring it sometimes with words or, or not.

????:

It's very much what the, what the client or the patient wants.

????:

But at the end, at the end of the session, you've got this, the outcome that she

????:

said, you know, you can check in again.

????:

Um, you know, you were talking before about taking more care of yourself,

????:

any ideas that came to you during this session about how you might do that.

????:

So they go out with, with something to do something that they've

????:

chosen, something that's naturally arisen organically from them.

????:

And, uh, I think that's a pretty good process myself.

????:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

So I've noticed a couple things about this.

Michael Max:

First of all, you, you've clearly been doing this for awhile and you're skilled

Michael Max:

at it because just following your voice.

Michael Max:

I'm like already half in trance, right?

Michael Max:

A little Milton Erickson.

Michael Max:

He there.

Michael Max:

All right.

Michael Max:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

So I mean, some of it, some of it is our ability to focus, our

Michael Max:

ability to be present to the other person, somewhat present to ourself.

Michael Max:

I'm curious to know how you kind of track what's going on in all

Michael Max:

of this, because it, as you went into this and you're saying, yes,

Michael Max:

these are very simple questions.

Michael Max:

You started going into it and I'm already like, golly, you're in this deep place.

Michael Max:

And how do you, how do you know what's up and what's down.

Michael Max:

Does that question make sense?

????:

It's really interesting because what we're looking at and in clean

????:

language is the sort of embodied metaphor.

????:

So if you say, how do you know what's up and what's down.

????:

The year already, you have to pay attention to language in that level

????:

of detail, we use up to mean things which are generally positive when

????:

I'm feeling, oh, I'm feeling good.

????:

Uh, we use downs main things in the generally negative and just paying

????:

minute attention to the words that people use and being really curious

????:

about them and taking them literally, and sort of gently and respectfully

????:

asking permission of the left hemisphere.

????:

Could we find out a little more about what you just said?

????:

That's the intention, that's the feeling behind these kinds of questions on the

????:

left hemisphere will say, well, I know what I just said is what I just said, and

????:

I need to go any deeper into it because that's where the left hemisphere lives.

????:

It lives in virtual world of language.

????:

It doesn't, it's like the language doesn't have to connect to anything real in the

????:

left hemisphere, but we're inviting it.

????:

Get into the body through via the right atmosphere.

????:

That's what we're doing.

????:

Well, I've

Michael Max:

noticed too, in the way that you were doing this, and I've read

Michael Max:

some of your book as well, that you often will link things together with the

Michael Max:

word and, and something I've noticed.

Michael Max:

This is just in my own practice.

Michael Max:

And this has just come about because you know, I sit with people

Michael Max:

every day and ask them questions.

Michael Max:

Sometimes I will find myself saying something and you know,

Michael Max:

they'll say something and I'll go.

Michael Max:

But, and then, and then I catch myself, I stop and I go, oh, actually

Michael Max:

it's not a, but it's an aunt.

Michael Max:

And then I'll ask them some kind of a question.

Michael Max:

I've noticed this for myself that, but really we'll stop something.

Michael Max:

And, and kind of invites a little more information to come out.

Michael Max:

Well,

????:

the, they mean different things obviously, and also where the right

????:

brain, uh, comes into to the understanding of language is in the sounds in, in

????:

the, the way that the sounds, the vowels and the consonants, the rhythm,

????:

the pace, the tone, the emotion in the language, the way that all these

????:

things register in the patient's voice or in my voice, those are appreciated

????:

by the right brain, not the lamb.

????:

So all that aspect of language is also there, but it's re it's the right brain.

????:

That's tuning into that.

????:

So literally, but it begins with the continent.

????:

That's.

????:

That's a hard one, a noise to the ear and is very soft and connecting kind of word.

????:

Yeah, you can, you

Michael Max:

can just feel it emotionally.

Michael Max:

Can't share.

Michael Max:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

Okay.

Michael Max:

I got it.

Michael Max:

I

????:

feel that.

????:

And there's something you said in our email conversation before they're setting

????:

up this interview, you said sometimes I use just a few needles to quote, set

????:

the change that already rippled through the room during the quote interview.

????:

I just thought that was, that was lovely.

????:

That's exactly how I think about how I use yet too, that I'm trying to get the

????:

change to ripple through the person's body, through their mind, through the room

????:

as you so accurately point out that it ripples through the whole field between

????:

the two of us it's registered in my body.

????:

And then the, you know, well, would you like to lay down and that's set to that,

????:

let's allow that change to make its way through the whole mind body system.

Michael Max:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

I, you know, it doesn't happen in every interaction I have with patients,

Michael Max:

but it happens, it happens often enough and it is a palpable sense.

Michael Max:

I mean, something really ripples through the room.

Michael Max:

Something will come out, usually the patient's mouth.

Michael Max:

Sometimes I say it and I feel it, but often the patient says something

Michael Max:

and it just about knocks me over.

Michael Max:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

And sometimes they will catch it as they say it, but more often they will not.

Michael Max:

And so I, because I caught it, I simply feed it back to them just as a way of

Michael Max:

double checking that I heard it correctly.

Michael Max:

And.

Michael Max:

When they hear it coming back to them, they go, yes, that's right.

Michael Max:

And then often they'll say, how did you know?

Michael Max:

Right.

Michael Max:

How did you know?

Michael Max:

And, and I'm thinking to myself, because you just told me, and sometimes I'll tell

Michael Max:

them that it's like, how did you know?

Michael Max:

Well, you just told me, and they'll be quite shocked by that.

????:

And there's a good neurological reason for that, which is simply

????:

the part of the brain on the left.

????:

And the left hemisphere that is in charge of speaking is separate from

????:

the part, which is also in the left hemisphere, which is in charge of hearing.

????:

So when we're speaking, we're not necessarily hearing ourselves and

????:

that's obviously you're, you're doing it really effectively in your way.

????:

And the clean language questions are designed to do it by, by,

????:

um, specifically using the exact words that the client has used.

????:

Putting them back in these very simple questions.

????:

So it's not really the questions themselves that doing the work.

????:

It's, it's the words, hearing your words back, you, you know, in a way you don't

????:

ask any questions, you could just say the words back with your eyebrows slightly

????:

higher, and it would have the same effect.

Michael Max:

I recently read a fantastic book on negotiation and it's written

Michael Max:

by an ex FBI hostage negotiator.

Michael Max:

I've heard of this.

Michael Max:

Someone

????:

else recommended.

Michael Max:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

This guy, his name is Chris Voss.

Michael Max:

Hey, you acupuncturists listening to this.

Michael Max:

Chris Voss never split the difference.

Michael Max:

If you want to run a business, any business, if you want to get

Michael Max:

along better with your spouse.

Michael Max:

This book is fantastic.

Michael Max:

When I first heard the words, FBI hostage, negotiator, I thought, oh, this

Michael Max:

is a really like, you know, gloves off, you know, hard knuckled negotiation.

Michael Max:

No.

Michael Max:

Super soft based on the work of Carl Rogers, it's based on empathy, it's

Michael Max:

based on connection because when you're negotiating with somebody,

Michael Max:

you don't want to fight them.

Michael Max:

You want to connect with them.

Michael Max:

And so one of the things he talks about in doing negotiations at me,

Michael Max:

if someone says something and you'd like more information you do exactly

Michael Max:

that you just take the last few words.

Michael Max:

They said, ideally using their words and you just feed it back and then you shut

Michael Max:

the hell up and you let the silence work.

Michael Max:

And that is an invitation to go in and bring something else out.

Michael Max:

And, and you can use this in negotiations for like, you

Michael Max:

know, the lease on your office.

Michael Max:

Or you can use this in sitting with a patient, not, not to manipulate

Michael Max:

them into something, but to invite them into a deeper experience.

Michael Max:

Of their own experience.

Michael Max:

And so you can better understand them.

????:

Absolutely.

????:

And one way to think about it, uh, comes from another, I'm a researcher.

????:

This is Alan Shaw.

????:

Who's based in California, spent many years thinking from a

????:

psychotherapy he's a psychoanalytic psychotherapist and his background,

????:

but he did a lot of research on this essential question in psychotherapy.

????:

Is it just the language or what else is going on?

????:

And, um, brilliantly has come up, I guess, the sound bite really that sums

????:

it all up is the way he puts it is that while our left brains of two people

????:

in the room are having a conversation verbally, the right brains of these

????:

same two people are having another conversation, a different conversation.

????:

And that's the way I think about it.

????:

I'm using the clean language questions to bring some, um, sense of both these

????:

sides of the brain can be listening to the same conversation, but at the same

????:

time, there are things which I'm aware that I'm doing, especially when I'm

????:

actually doing the hands-on work that will never come into my cognitive awareness.

????:

And that there's just this really deep conversation going on between

????:

my hands, my embodied sense of self and the person's energy and body.

????:

And it's just about listening to that and allowing it to happen and

????:

keeping the left brain occupied with other things, uh, that I think that's

????:

a really important model to have in mind when you're, you know, you're,

????:

you're doing your acupuncture into.

????:

And this person's body is trying to speak to you.

????:

They, you know, don't ignore the things that happen.

????:

I sometimes find a person's talking about the issue and their hand goes

????:

and points, literally points to a certain acupuncture point, say on their

????:

leg or on their shoulder, they aren't even aware that they're doing it.

????:

But the body is almost as if the body knows that I know about points.

????:

I know about radians.

????:

And it's just trying to tell me, it's trying to short circuit

????:

the left brain at the time.

????:

Tell me, look, this is what I need.

????:

Hi, Josephine here again.

????:

I hope you've been enjoying this episode and considering my question.

????:

What is the most important ingredient in any prescription?

????:

You might think that what I'm about to say is completely counter to

????:

all you've learned about medicine.

????:

But in my experience with myself, my clients and my students, this

????:

is the one thing that is the most true, the most important ingredient

????:

in any prescription is you, I don't mean you the ego or the persona.

????:

You the acupuncturist.

????:

No.

????:

I mean you, the living, breathing, sensing, being who has feelings,

????:

perceptions, and thoughts arising in every moment, when you are listening

????:

to a person's pulse, looking at their tongue or hearing them speak, what

????:

is arising inside, you will be the most important guide for creating a

????:

powerful prescription of any kind, no matter where you are in your journey.

????:

Now, I wonder if you feel connected to your own, knowing to your own power as

????:

a practitioner, what might you need now to feel more connected, more confident,

????:

more strong in your own practice.

????:

I'd love it.

????:

If you talk to them, Email me that Josephine Edison's presence.com

????:

or go to essence presence.com.

????:

I'm looking forward to hearing from you.

????:

Now let's listen to the rest of today's conversation.

????:

I

Michael Max:

love this idea that when we're sitting in the room with a

Michael Max:

client or a patient, the left sides of our brain are having a conversation.

Michael Max:

The right sides of our brain are having a conversation that,

Michael Max:

that those are both going on.

Michael Max:

They're going on in very different realms.

Michael Max:

I am curious to know what you do for yourself when you're working to help

Michael Max:

quiet the left a bit so that you can dip into what's coming up from the

Michael Max:

right, even if you will never know completely cognitively what's going on.

Michael Max:

How do you quiet the left down and then kind of know that you're plugged in.

????:

I like, I mean, there's so many ways to talk about this.

????:

The guy that does it for me is, uh, the, the, the Zen master

????:

who wrote, or he, he, uh,

Michael Max:

oh, Roche, uh, yeah, Suzuki

????:

Roshi.

????:

He wrote a book, you know, it was, it was a recorded lectures,

????:

actually know some of his students and he who put it all together.

????:

And he talked about beginner's mind and expert's mind that really

????:

famous quote in the beginner's mind.

????:

There are only many possibilities in the expert's mind.

????:

There are a few, and I don't think that means that the expert's mind is bad.

????:

And the beginning of mine is good.

????:

It means we need to recognize these two sides of ourselves.

????:

And once you put it together with that neuro neurologic.

????:

Staff about right hemisphere left hemisphere, UC.

????:

Oh yes.

????:

The expert mine is the left hemisphere that knows and categorizes and

????:

has choices to make decisions, to make and, um, outcomes to secure.

????:

And so on treatment plans to fulfill boxes, to tick that's the left

????:

hemisphere, that's the expert mind, and it needs to be able to do its thing.

????:

Then there's the beginner's mind, which as, as he says, I've got the quote here.

????:

I think the practice of Zen he says is beginner's mind.

????:

That's it.

????:

In a nutshell, the whole practice of Zen is beginner's mind empty

????:

free of the habits of the expert.

????:

Ready to accept, to doubt, open to all possibilities.

????:

And that's that's the mind I.

????:

I just do a little deal with myself every time I sit down next to

????:

the client, uh, ready to start.

????:

So she actually, that this is a beginner's mind time now, please.

????:

And on the emptiness, you know, in, um, in Zen philosophy, the whole idea of

????:

emptiness is the place to come from that emptiness, from which everything arises.

????:

That's, that's it, you know, just be empty and allow things to arise and keep that

????:

expert mind as the, as the loyal servant.

????:

That that's what the title of in the Gilchrist book, the master and his

????:

Emissary means it's like the master is beginner's mind the industry that

????:

is like the Chamberlain, the prime minister, the, the loyal assistant.

Michael Max:

So we're in a way we're talking heart and

Michael Max:

pericardium functions here

????:

very much, I think.

????:

Yes.

????:

The way the heart and the brain talk to each other, or don't.

????:

And it says at the beginning of home that he's, he's really

????:

troubled because his father's just been, just died very suddenly.

????:

Nobody knows how or why.

????:

So he's traumatized.

????:

Meanwhile, his uncle is married his mother within a few months and they're having

????:

a huge party to celebrate only a few months after his father has been buried.

????:

He's the only one in the whole court who, who finds this odd and he says, break,

????:

break my heart for, I must hold my tongue.

????:

And it's very embodied.

????:

Isn't it?

????:

It's like his tongue can't actually speak the truth.

????:

And so his heart breaks that.

????:

So Chinese medicine isn't

Michael Max:

man, isn't it though.

Michael Max:

Well, and it's a source of so much trauma when you think.

????:

And the source of the so-called talking cure.

????:

You know, the idea that when we begin to speak, when the tongue begins to

????:

move and what's in the heart can be expressed and things begin to heal, or

????:

at least to be heard well, and isn't it

Michael Max:

I'm and I'm going to express my, uh, loss of some Chinese

Michael Max:

medicine basics here, but isn't the tongue related to the heart.

Michael Max:

It doesn't the heart open to the tongue.

Michael Max:

I think we have that in Chinese medicine.

Michael Max:

Don't wait.

????:

Yeah, it is.

????:

I love it.

????:

When you see these absolute exact parallels between Western culture and

????:

Asian culture, um, that's one of them and of course in Shakespeare's day, unlike

????:

now, the, the language was very embodied.

????:

Well

Michael Max:

then again, we got Shakespeare.

Michael Max:

I mean, maybe the language was embodied, maybe it wasn't, but you

Michael Max:

got someone like Shakespeare, that guy knows how to use some language.

????:

Yes.

????:

And in a very embodied,

Michael Max:

well, I realize I might need to go, go reads me

Michael Max:

a little more Shakespeare, her,

????:

oh shit.

????:

I could go.

????:

I could go on with that one.

????:

That's the great thing about that quote, that ham it's actually

????:

talking to his body to his heart.

????:

And the sense that you can communicate with your body of course, is what's coming

????:

back now in 90 illness in mindfulness.

????:

We bring our attention to the body.

????:

We listen to the body, we wait for some response to come in

????:

certain kinds of mindfulness.

????:

And I just think it's wonderful that the times that we are living in, honestly,

????:

the way that Eastern Western things.

????:

Not just Eastern and Western things, um, in terms of complementary stuff,

????:

but the way that science and the so-called wisdom traditions are coming

????:

together, the mindfulness is a wonderful example of that because mindfulness

????:

would not be such a big thing as it is right now, if it weren't for the

????:

fact that academic research extremely expensive double-blind clinical

????:

testing has been done online on this.

????:

And it was when those tests showed that it was as effective, if not more effective

????:

than antidepressants for depression.

????:

That's when the boom in academic studies of mindfulness began, there

????:

was an exponential growth in papers written about it from that time on.

????:

So these, the coming together of these things is I think the, this

????:

is the times that we're living

Michael Max:

in, in some ways we're so lucky to be living in this.

Michael Max:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

Hey, I want to, I want to get back to something that you said earlier in the

Michael Max:

show that really caught my attention and, and I, and I think it's germane

Michael Max:

to the conversation at this point.

Michael Max:

You said that there are neurological reasons for not knowing

Michael Max:

something when we're working.

Michael Max:

Do you remember saying

????:

that?

????:

Yes.

????:

Yes.

????:

That's all.

????:

I was what I meant about the left brain.

????:

Not wanting.

????:

And, and for not being able to give a name to something, I think is

????:

what you said, something like that.

????:

So w

Michael Max:

I have a specific question about that.

Michael Max:

And the question is this, because the left side, and I'm speaking here

Michael Max:

of me and my experience, maybe the listeners have this experience too.

Michael Max:

There is the left side that wants to make the diagnosis.

Michael Max:

There's the left side that, you know, wants to do something.

Michael Max:

Cause you know, I'm being paid to do something.

Michael Max:

And then there's just, you know, my own ego that feels like I want to make

Michael Max:

sure that I'm giving money's worth.

Michael Max:

And at the same time, there's a part of me that does trust the piece that I don't

Michael Max:

know, but often I don't really trust how can I, and if the listeners have this

Michael Max:

issue to quiet that left-brain down, just another turn or two on the volume dial.

Michael Max:

Hm.

????:

Well, how you do that, I think is just do some mindfulness,

????:

whatever works for you.

????:

I don't mean you have to sit and meditate, but bring your attention to

????:

your body in a mindful way that doesn't mean go to the gym and pump weights.

????:

It means bringing your attention to your body in a mindful way.

????:

I mean, I can walk my dog in a mindless way when I'm just taking her around the

????:

block, because I've got to walk the dog or I can take my dog for a walk in a

????:

mindful way, in which case, instead of pulling her along on the lead, uh, because

????:

she's smaller than me and I can do that.

????:

I'm listening to that lead that connection between the two of

????:

us and allowing it to be slack.

????:

I'm allowing her to tell me where she wants to go, as well as me telling her

????:

I'm feeling my feet on the pavement.

????:

I'm becoming more aware of the impatient thoughts in my mind,

????:

I'm coming back to my breathing.

????:

I'm aware that we are two mammals together, engaged in an enterprise

????:

walking and all these things.

????:

That's all there is to it.

????:

I think.

????:

So you take it, you

Michael Max:

take yourself back into your physiologic, kinesthetic being, I, I, I,

Michael Max:

I mean, here's my left mind again, which loves to think it's running the show.

Michael Max:

It's usually wrong.

Michael Max:

It's often wrong, but it likes to think it's running the show.

Michael Max:

Are there any clean questions I could use on myself?

Michael Max:

To quiet my left side down.

Michael Max:

Well,

????:

we can experiment.

????:

Now, if you like with that, would you, would you like to try that?

Michael Max:

Okay.

Michael Max:

Should I buckle up?

????:

But the point is, is just an exploration.

????:

There's we're not trying to make a change.

????:

That's we're just exploring something.

????:

We're just exploring something.

????:

And that is a really important attitude to have in mind, I think, in any therapeutic

????:

work, because if you already think, well, I've got to make a change for this person.

????:

You're setting yourself up in an unnecessary way, the Wu

????:

way that the non-doing doesn't really have a chance to get in.

????:

Yeah, this

Michael Max:

is such a contradiction with our work because you know, people come

Michael Max:

in because they want us to do something.

Michael Max:

People do have something they want to get rid of our contract with someone

Michael Max:

is I'm going to help you get rid of the thing you don't want or help you get the

Michael Max:

thing you don't have that you do want.

Michael Max:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

So, so here we are being these east Asian medicine practitioners

Michael Max:

putting that over on the side and saying, we'll see what happens.

Michael Max:

Yeah.

????:

So, well, how would you, would you frame that?

????:

What, what, what's the, how would you describe this relationship you have with

????:

the, the left hemispheres way of thinking?

????:

Oh, wow.

Michael Max:

Um,

????:

as we go here.

Michael Max:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

Okay.

Michael Max:

Here we go.

????:

And the contract is also important that we need to just agree that maybe

????:

we've got five minutes to explore this.

????:

You know, we're not going to do a whole psychotherapy session.

????:

I'm not a psychotherapist,

Michael Max:

but yeah, let's take, let's take five

Michael Max:

to

????:

seven minutes, sir.

????:

Okay.

????:

Five to seven.

????:

And the other part of the contract, like was that, is that your as much

????:

in charge of this process as me, we're in it together, I'm not an expert in

????:

any sense, except in the use of the language or the expert, and we're

????:

trying to tap into your expertise.

Michael Max:

Okay.

Michael Max:

So when you were asking me about my leg, the left side of my brain,

Michael Max:

it's the part that really likes to think it knows what's going on and

Michael Max:

it likes to feel proud of itself.

????:

It really likes to think it knows what's going on and it

????:

really likes to feel proud of it.

????:

So.

????:

So there's two things which, which of those draws you the most

????:

knows what's going on or proud of?

????:

It's

Michael Max:

it's the, it likes to know what's going on.

????:

Likes knew what's going on.

????:

And is there anything else about it likes to know what's going on?

Michael Max:

Well, I, I have a certain family member that is so keen

Michael Max:

on always knowing what's going on.

Michael Max:

This is an influential person in my life and this person, many times drives me

Michael Max:

bat shit crazy because they're always so concerned with knowing that they know.

Michael Max:

And there's a part of me that has spent much of my life hanging

Michael Max:

out more on that right side.

Michael Max:

Okay.

Michael Max:

With not knowing, but it, is it a butt or is it an and, and.

Michael Max:

There's still the left side, sort of tapping its foot going, come on.

Michael Max:

When you, when you're going to get this knowing down, so you got it

Michael Max:

down, then you can feel comfort.

Michael Max:

Oh, then you can feel comfortable.

Michael Max:

Then you can feel secure.

Michael Max:

It's connected to security and comfort.

Michael Max:

Knowing is connected to security and comfort

????:

and listeners at home.

????:

You can hear how Michael is already making his own connections here.

????:

Um, exactly.

????:

You you're just running with the ball here.

????:

It's connected to security and comfort.

????:

And is there anything else about security and comfort when this, uh,

????:

voice of this family member that can drive you batshit crazy, finds it so

????:

important, uh, to know what they know.

????:

Is there anything else about security and comfort?

Michael Max:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

When I think about this in the context of working as an

Michael Max:

acupuncturist, oh boy, here we go.

Michael Max:

I actually am putting my patients in the position of that particular family man.

Michael Max:

In that I think they're wanting to make sure that I know what I'm doing

Michael Max:

and that I know what's going on for them, and I know how I'm going to be

Michael Max:

able to help them with their problem.

????:

Um, and so a good question here then would be when you're you notice

????:

that you're putting your patients in the position of that particularly

????:

particular family member, what would you like to have happened?

????:

Yeah,

Michael Max:

well, I'd like to recognize that, so I don't do

Michael Max:

it cause it's not very helpful.

Michael Max:

Right.

Michael Max:

Because then I'm not interacting with my patient.

Michael Max:

I'm interacting with my idea of who this family member is.

Michael Max:

And

????:

how would that be to recognize that, oh,

Michael Max:

it'd be super helpful.

Michael Max:

I could just like recognize that and go, oh yeah, there, there, there,

Michael Max:

this account and just drop it, you know, like any mindful practice.

Michael Max:

Oh yeah, there it is again.

Michael Max:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

Great.

Michael Max:

Yeah, back to where we were.

Michael Max:

And

????:

w what, how, what difference would that make for your patient?

????:

Well,

Michael Max:

I'm not sure what difference it would make for the patient, but it,

Michael Max:

the difference that it would make is that I'm actually listening to them and

Michael Max:

not, not listening to some projection of this family member that I have in my own

????:

mind.

????:

Okay.

????:

And is that a good place to finish?

Michael Max:

Oh yeah.

Michael Max:

That's, that's great.

Michael Max:

That's super helpful.

Michael Max:

That's something I can use it, you know, when I go to work this afternoon and

Michael Max:

help me stay, it'll help me stay more present to the person in front of me.

Michael Max:

It

????:

leads beautifully into the other little quote that I had from, from

????:

Shunryu Suzuki, which is when you listen to someone, forget what you

????:

have in your mind, and just listen.

????:

If your mind is empty, it's ready for anything and open to every.

????:

Yeah, that's, that's such a, you know, the way you came to that

????:

little conclusion there is, is a perfect example of that, I think.

????:

Yeah.

????:

That's,

Michael Max:

that's lovely.

Michael Max:

Thank you.

Michael Max:

I a Cuban

????:

boy.

Michael Max:

Well, this is probably a pretty good place

Michael Max:

to wind this conversation down.

Michael Max:

Is there, is there a, what in the spirits of the conversation, is

Michael Max:

there anything else that you'd like to share before we wind it down?

Michael Max:

Um,

????:

yeah, I just, what, I would also want to talk about one other person who

????:

really inspires me in this whole approach.

????:

And I think it's really important to remember when we're learning to stick

????:

our thumbs into points or needles into points that in the, in the traditional.

????:

The healing arts, we're part of a whole other bunch of arts

????:

that you were supposed to learn.

????:

You're supposed to learn martial arts or Tai-Chi calligraphy, poetry music, you

????:

know, in traditional Asian approaches to being a well-rounded person.

????:

And I get a lot of inspiration just from opening up to that.

????:

And somebody who really does it for me again, is, is a Japanese,

????:

uh, concert pianist called Mitsuko.

????:

Uchida how we'll have

Michael Max:

to put it on the show notes

????:

page.

????:

Yeah, she's one of the greatest, I think she must be in her late

????:

sixties, early seventies now, I don't know, but she's one of the greatest

????:

interprets of the Mozart music.

????:

She came from Japan at a young age because she was something of a prodigy

????:

to Vienna the absolute capital of Western classical music and, you know, develop.

????:

Her career and became known.

????:

And so on that I first came across there when I was reading a review and

????:

the reviews said she doesn't get in the way of the composer's intention

????:

or impose our own will on the music.

????:

She doesn't show off her own style or virtuosity.

????:

And then it said something that really rang a bell.

????:

For me, she said, as a performer, she truly listens.

????:

And I thought, yes, that's what she had too is we're performing as a performing

????:

art in a way with an audience of one.

????:

And it's all about listening.

????:

And as a performer, she truly listens.

????:

And by listening you imagine she allows you to hear more clearly what

????:

Mozart was hearing inside his own head.

????:

And I thought that was just beautiful.

????:

That's what we want our patients to experience.

????:

They want, we want them to hear what's going on inside of them.

????:

Something we're telling them we're not trying to impose on them.

????:

It just summed everything up for me.

????:

And um, if, if that's a good point to leave it, then I'd like to leave

????:

you with was that if you watch her on YouTube performing, which is easy to

????:

do you see how incredibly embodied she is as a performer, she's tiny, but she

????:

puts so much meaning, so much movement, so much facial expression into the

????:

way these notes resonate through her.

????:

It's extraordinary.

????:

I do recommend it.

????:

Yeah.

????:

We'll

Michael Max:

put that on the show notes.

Michael Max:

I am looking forward to having a visual of a person who is both performing

Michael Max:

through the process of listening.

Michael Max:

Yeah, exactly.

Michael Max:

That sounds great, Nick, thank you so much for joining me here.

Michael Max:

It's this, uh, anniversary edition of qiological

????:

congratulations again, and please keep going.

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