How do you define success? Financial professionals may not realize how much growth and achievement they gain from nurturing client relationships as they guide them through major life events and important decisions.

So Julie, recently, you know, our team has rolled out this topic of a social portfolio talking about the importance of relationships as our clients age and the importance of relationships between the advisor and the client and the role the advisor can play. And I got to tell you, Julie, when I lay out a number of topics in front of advisors and financial professionals, I mean, it’s more than half the time people point at the one about social relationships and say, tell me more about this one.

Well, and I think that’s so interesting, John. And I don’t know if it’s a sign of the last couple of years that we’ve all lived through, as we all saw the the lack of human interaction. And maybe that’s really helped that topic rise to the top of the list. Or I wonder if financial professionals are excited to have a new and fresh theme or topic to engage with their clients on and to start talking about the aspect of friendship and social network and thinking about how one might continue to have a strong social network as they age and ultimately retire. So I think it’s just a fascinating topic and I’m excited to learn more about it today.

And Julie, that’s why you mentioned excitement. I couldn’t wait to talk to Dr. Jeff Hall from the University of Kansas today. So before we go much further, why don’t you introduce who Jeff is to our audience, and then we’ll have them listen into our conversation.

Jeffrey Hall is a Ph.D. from the University of Southern California and is a professor of communication studies and director of the Relationships and Technology Lab at the University of Kansas. He is a past chair of the Human Communication and Technology Division of the National Communication Association and is current Chair of the Interpersonal Communication Division of the International Communication Association. His award winning book Relating Through Technology, was published by Cambridge University Press in 2020. He has written for the Wall Street Journal and has been interviewed by the New York Times, National Public Radio, The Washington Post, Financial Times, USA Today, The Atlantic, U.S. News and World Report, and CNN, and has also appeared on Steve Harvey Show. It’s Personal with Amy Hoggart.

So, Julie, let’s all listen into the conversation about how client relationships can influence our sense of success. Hi, I’m John.

And I’m Julie.

We’re the hosts of the Harvard Fund’s Human Centric Investing podcast.

Every other week, we’re talking with inspiring thought leaders to hear their best ideas for how you can transform your relationships with your clients.

Let’s go.

Welcome, Jeff, to the Human Centric Investing podcast. We’re delighted to have you here with us today.

It’s good to be here. Thank you.

Well, Jeff, I’ve been a big fan ever since I read The Wall Street Journal editorial that you published earlier this year talking about relationships. And, you know, as Julie and I work with many different financial advisors across the country, oftentimes those advisors regard their clients as their friends. But for the sake of today’s discussion, in your research and experience, how do you define friendship?

That’s a great question. You know, one of the things about friendship is that it really only requires two key elements and one is mutual liking. So we have them all for us to be friends. I have to like you and you have to like me in return. And that’s kind of like a baseline. It’s true for children, it’s true for adults. It’s true across the world. But the second part that I really focus on in my research is time. You have to have time together in order to build that relationship. It’s just not enough to say anyone you meet is your friend, although they’re certainly friendly

people out there. One of the things we’re going to talk about is the difference between having kind of those deep, more meaningful contacts with people versus someone who you’re just friendly with. And I think that that’s really kind of the key element of friendship, is that mutual, enduring quality that really brings people together.

Jeff, you talk about time together, and I think that’s such an interesting concept. And you know, when we think about a financial professional, oftentimes they may work with a client for ten, 20, 30, 40 years. I mean, a very significant amount of time, decades. And I know so many financial professionals say my clients are my friends. You know, I know them so well. And we obviously spend time in the business discussions, but we also spend time in life discussions. I’m curious in what you do in the conversations that you have and your research, how does going through some of those significant life events with someone else impact that friendship, bond and relationship?

Yeah, one of the key qualities that builds friendship is something called self- disclosure. So probably the longest. Research concept and relationship development is this idea that when we share pieces of ourselves, our hopes, our dreams, our ambitions, our future, our family, our past, these are things that actually propel a relationship forward so that you can actually have a, you know, just a few minutes of high level self-disclosure and feel more connected and bonded with somebody at the end. So this happens in research that’s, you know, 40 years old, 30 years old. It’s been going on for a very long time and it’s pretty well established. And everything that you describe is a hugely self-disclose of act. When I share where I want to go in the future, you know who I want to spend that future with. What I want to pass down to my children. What I want to live like and how I want to live. I mean, these are these are about hopes and dreams. There is no more deep self-disclosure than you can have then dealing with that.

Perhaps another piece to that is also dealing with loss. You know what happens if there’s something that’s going to happen in your life where you lose a spouse? How to cope with those things. So if you think about it, a financial advisors role has so much to do with these deep disclosures in a way that probably no one else, except for a therapist and a close friend, gets to hear that level of disclosure. And if we think about really that endurance that you spoke of, you know, ten, 20, 30 years of your life, this is not just about your hopes and dreams. It’s about realizing your hopes and dreams. And our really great friends in our lives are actually there with us step by step, seeing us achieve the things that we want, making sense of the things that didn’t come to pass. So I think that a financial advisor has an enormous kind of place in a person’s emotional space to think through and a, you know, informed, empirically sound way how to live out those dreams in ways that make them happen.

I suggest, conversely, from a clients perspective, thinking about, you know, dealing with the same financial advisor over a period of time through what I call those mountaintop highs and maybe those valley lows. So what’s the impact on the client? And I guess, secondly, you know, what I find even personally when I think about changing a dentist or a doctor or an eye doctor after I’ve been seeing that that professional for years, it’s oftentimes very difficult to do that because I feel like that person knows me. Is it even is it as accentuated or maybe even more so when you talk about a financial professional?

You know, it’s hard to say. You know, I’m not familiar if there is great research to say which one is more impactful. Right. I think that certainly the longevity of that relationship matters and the disclosure matters. So you can also you hear stories of people feeling close to their doctor in that similar kind of way because those are pretty personal disclosures and big events. But I love to share a story with you a little bit to kind of, you know, draw attention from a client’s perspective. My father saw a financial advisor for a long time. Yeah, he was a small business owner, and he worked with the same financial planner for a very long time. And so this this gentleman named John Martel, he actually was involved in our lives in ways that were hard for us to see. So although I don’t remember meeting John occasionally in the mail, I’d get something that said congratulations if I succeeded in debate in forensics, which I was very active as. Or he would watch closely kind of the local Topeka newspaper for how well his clients kids were doing in sports or other events. And he would send that information to the family. And I tell you that story because I think that it’s hard to quantify how special it is to feel acknowledged and seen by someone else, especially when I was 16, 17 years old. I kept that actually over the years that I only learned who this person was when I transferred over life insurance policies and my father had

taken out for me and when I became an adult and could pay for myself. So the interesting thing was that person was in the background of my life. Even though I never met them. I learned after the fact that my dad and his financial advisor were very close and they made a lot of business decisions that were mutually beneficial to them and thought about investing money in ways that mattered. So I know that it’s absolutely possible to develop that kind of relationship of someone who becomes a confidant, a friend of the family, you know, someone who’s a go to for advice. All of those things and those kind of relationships are very important to individuals over the course of their lives making those kind of decisions. So I think you can kind of think about a financial advisor as having that kind of relationship and the very sort of mentor ish, you know, long term professional guidance kind of way. But another way could also develop certainly, which is two people just actually like each other enough to go and talk about things outside of a business setting. And to me, that’s a big a big move. Some of the research that I’ve done with some graduate students are something called a context shift. And in a context shift, the person who you met at one place, you invite to do something else at another place. So if you and I meet at work, for example, and I say, Hey, do you want to go have coffee or do you want to have a drink after work or, you know, something like that that actually builds an opportunity for us to develop a kind of relationship we didn’t have at work. So similarly, if a client was to say to their financial advisor, Hey, you know, we’re having a holiday party at my home, would you like to? Part of it. You know, your family is welcome. We’re going to a picnic and 4th of July, we’re we’re going to do something that involves other people and you’re invited. That is a huge invitation to the development of a relationship beyond something that’s just professional. So I could see it really being in two ways. One is this kind of long term mentor, you know, kind of life companion person with great advice. Another way is actually legitimately a friend, like somebody that you get to know and want to spend time with outside of the workplace setting or outside of the client relationship. So I think both are possible, and I certainly think that that’s something that can make a big difference in people’s lives.

And Jeff, one thing along that same line, we talked about a client inviting a financial professional to an event. But what Julie and I often see is that the financial professional offering out to their clients a gathering that’s not centered around market information or investment education, but just doing something kind of fun, I would guess, in your mind would have a similar effect?

Absolutely. And I think one of the other parts about it is that’s where we build our community. Right. We think when I think about community as a researcher on this, I cannot emphasize enough how important it is to feel that you’re welcome in your own community. You know, that community could be through your financial planner. It could be your kid’s baseball team. It could be your church or synagogue. It could be anywhere. But the sense that, you know, the people who you all the other people know. Right. That friends of friends phenomenon that’s really critical and feeling like a sense of belongingness in a broader community. So I think it’s absolutely possible that, you know, those invitations from a financial planner could build a friendship. But I think it probably even serves a more important function, which is all the people in that community knowing each other.

Exactly.

Jeff, I thought your story about the mentorship of the next generation was so spot on. And it’s interesting because John and I have conversations every day with financial professionals that I think really struggle with that in so many ways that, you know, you didn’t have the assets or the money to invest at the point when that financial planner was was acknowledging your life accomplishments. But it’s still, you know, your example. You showed us how important and meaningful that was to you in the long run and how ultimately it built that relationship of trust and respect. And I just think it’s such a great reminder that, you know, these these are long term relationships that maybe evolve ultimately into friendships, even if they’re a multi-generational match. How does the multigenerational aspect play into this? You know, if maybe the the financial planner is 65 or 70, say, and and the incumbent next generation of clients is maybe in their thirties or forties, does that have any impact on the friendship and the way that that relationship evolves in your research?

Well, I would say that generally intergenerational friendships are something that is infrequent in our in our broader sort of schema of how often we befriend people. We typically befriend people of a similar age as ourselves. There are certain relationships, such as the mentor relationship, student teacher relationship, things like that, that do actually have intergenerational qualities. And the one that you mentioned actually certainly has the potential to be like that. One of the things that I think to keep in mind is, is that the kind of the outcome of all of this in a kind of an existential sense is death, right? Is is is the client passing and being able to to carry on the financial plans, the life insurance policies, the wealth assets, all of that to the next generation. So ultimately, there will be an intergenerational component to this, you know, whether that has the potential to pass on to the next generation as a new relationship to build. But if it’s one that’s done with trust and integrity, I have no doubt that that’s a great basis for things to continue.

So, Jeff, I know have been in our business long enough to know that nothing’s ever cut and dry. Right. We’re talking about friendships and relationships, but I’m sure there’s another side of the friendship coin. So obviously, I think the benefits to all may be kind of obvious, but I’d like to ask you about kind of the benefits for probably more importantly, are there challenges to this model of becoming friends or deepening relationships with my clients? And if so, how should I think of that as a financial professional?

Yeah, well, you mentioned the benefits. It’s incredible how well social interactions and relationships predict well-being, predict life satisfaction, predict longevity, predict health, predict mortality. It’s incredible. The data is overwhelming and it’s now really over, you know, different continents, different countries, different generations. Over and over again. We see the quality of the relationships matter tremendously for all the most important things in life, they’re totally worthwhile to invest in. And I feel like I’m a bit of a friendship evangelist because I’m always walking around saying, Work on your friendships, prioritize your friends, spend time with your friends. Because I really, genuinely believe that this is a path where you can build a happier life and a longer life over the long time by doing so. The downside of it, of course, is the time crunch. There’s just simply not that much time to go around for all the people in our life. One of the things that I’ve actually been working on, I’m working currently on a book with a coauthor, and we’re testing out an idea that we’ve we feel pretty strongly about, which is basically take care of your people plus two. So your people are the people in your life, your spouse, your children, your closest friends, your parents, and then two other people. And those people come and go. Some people who are part of your life for just a couple of years, some people are part of your life for ten years. But you take care of them, you care for them, you get closer to them for whatever time that life allows. Because I think that the hardest part about relationships is really finding the time for them and prioritizing them given all of life’s demands. So if you’re working on keeping your close relationships with the people that really matter, that’s step one. But when you have the time and energy to give to other people, build communities, you know, host parties, be the kind of person that allows people to meet each other. That’s another way to kind of take care of others. So I think that there are lots of paths to this, but I think we have to acknowledge the idea. It’s unrealistic for any individual to befriend everyone that they meet. That is not going to happen. Those relationships have to be mutual, so two people have to be agreeable to it. And there’s simply the more you add, the harder it is to keep in touch and to be close to people. You simply cannot keep in touch with so many people. So I think one thing that when I think about this, your people plus two, it’s really to sort of make people thoughtful. I’m always working in developing certain relationships, but there are some people who I’m never going to stop living, keeping touch with, caring for being part of my life. And it is that balance between change and stability.

And Jeff is a financial professional. I know oftentimes I speak to I speak to advisors who say there’s that client where we come in for an hour annual review, but they’d be sitting there for 3 hours if I let them. But that should be a pretty good sign. I would think to us that that other person may be seeking a little bit more than just financial advice, maybe some community, as you described it.

Absolutely. I think that that openness to continue the conversation is a sign that someone is comfortable around you, is interested in furthering the strength of that relationship, but also making a long term kind of commitment to being, in that case, your client. But in any case, someone who you want to continue to know.

So, Jeff, I’m going to bring up the M-word for those financial professionals that are sitting here thinking money is involved with my client relationships and friendships. And if you think about a financial professional who’s managing the assets of their clients, that obviously is such an important piece of their life, their future, their ultimate retirement plan. What are your thoughts on how the money involvement really impacts that friendship ultimately?

Well, I mean, let’s be honest, money is a very stressful thing. I don’t think that we can walk away from the idea that when you’re when your life is tied to money and your future is tied to money, it’s stressful. So in some ways, actually even engaging in that conversation is an act of trust. I trust you well enough to manage my money. And that for a lot of people is is huge in terms of an act of trust. And I certainly know that there are a lot of financial legal requirements you all have to do in order to to uphold integrity and all that good stuff. But I think from a personal point of view, that’s importance also means that people are more likely to be deep disclosing, right? They’re more likely to be talking about something that’s very important to them. And that money may be important to them, not for what it is, but what it does right. What it allows for them to do for their children or their grandchildren or for their home or for their future. So I think that if you think about it, the money aspect itself creates a weight of of the intensity of the conversation that otherwise wouldn’t be there. But I suppose from the other point of view, having clients who are really interested in spending that three hour conversation from the point of view of the financial advisor, that’s actually time well spent, right? Because that is an investment in the relationship, which ultimately is a mutual benefit for both.

Jeff, I know in reading your research, one of the things you mentioned is that relationships do take work. And secondly, relationships can be messy. And so from a financial professional standpoint, we’ve kind of focused on the benefits. But in our relationships with clients and in our friendships, are there lines that we should not cross and how might we recognize those if, if, if there are?

Yeah, that’s a great question. You know, I think what’s interesting about the self-disclosure process is typically among friends who are not associated in the way that you’re describing, there is a kind of a stair stepping up of disclosure. Right. So we talk about our interests. We talk about what we think about our favorite sports team. We talk about our families. We begin to say what things are important to us. And way, way deep is that kind of hopes and dreams, you know, our ambitions, who we want to be, what matters to us, our hurt, our loss, all of those things. Right, are a very deep level of conversation. So typically you stair step through that in the process of getting to know people. Your relationship is curious and the one that you’re describing with financial advisors because you start at the deeper stuff. In a lot of ways, you know, what are your relationships? What do you want to do with your future? Where do you see yourself in 20, 30 years when it comes to like crossing lines? I would say that it’s certainly possible that people feel that it’s very uncomfortable to get to that level of disclosure with anyone, and they may want to keep it actually in a very sort of neutral, emotionless way. Right. You are working with me to make my dreams happen, but I really don’t want to talk about them. I don’t I don’t want to feel like they’re in question. I don’t want to feel like they’re really things I want to talk to you about because it’s something that’s personal to me. So I would say what’s tricky for financial advisors point of view is you really have to acknowledge the fact that some people are sharing with you personal details, but they actually may not want to talk to you about them emotionally. They may not want to talk about where those things came from or what that means about their future or what that means about their parents or how they feel about themselves.

Right. That might happen. But it really I think it’s a sensitive area, especially since this relationship is not like a friendship which developed in a way which there was slow, gradual disclosure. Rather, it gets pretty personal, pretty quick. So in terms of drawing a line, I would say, you know, be aware that for some people, despite the intensity of this information, people may really not want to disclose any more about it than just, I want this done and I want it done in this way.

Jeff, you mentioned something interesting earlier that the the successful outcome of the client and financial professional relationship is ultimately the passing of the client and then hopefully the transition of the wealth to the next generation, which is such an interesting definition of a successful outcome. And you said that and it really piqued my curiosity. So if that’s the ultimate outcome, do you have any before we wrap up today, any ideas or suggestions on

how a financial professional can start to be ready, him or herself, for the ultimate loss of that client and friendship in their lives when that successful outcome arrives?

Yeah, that’s that’s pretty deep. You know, as a as a professor, I have students all the time who are part of my life. Right. These are people who I care about, who who care about me. I hope for some small portion of the students that I teach that that I made a difference in their lives. And that’s something important. But I also have to acknowledge that I’m one small piece of their life and their life will continue on, as will mine. And that moment of honor and appreciation between the two of us will come and pass. And I think that the relationship you describe as similar, all things pass and this is no different. And I don’t know there there’s any preparation we can do to acknowledge that our all of our lives will come to an end. All of the good things in our lives will pass except for to appreciate those moments, be witness to them and pay attention to them as they happen and say, I’m grateful for the fact that I get to influence people in a positive way. I get to see that their goals, their dreams, the things that matter to them are passed on to the next generation way which saw those things fulfilled even when they’re not here. So I think in some sense their only thing to focus on is the fact that it will indeed come come to an end. But that end is actually part of all of our lives. So all relationships end. But that’s a beautiful thing, too.

So, Jeff, we’ve talked a lot about friendships and relationships. And Julian, I have a few questions for you that hopefully can deepen our friendship. So Julie, why don’t you start?

So, Jeff, on a scale of 1 to 10, how good of a driver are you?

I’m going to go with a six.

Next question. What’s your favorite holiday?

Oh, you know, my my my kids have made me think it’s Halloween because that was really fun. But I can’t. Christmas is hard to beat for me. I have such a long tradition with my own family and I enjoy it so much. So it has to be Christmas, even though I think my my daughter would almost get me convinced that Halloween is better.

What’s the best age, in your opinion?

You know, this is going to sound kind of cheesy, but the best age is the age you are now. I mean, you’re alive, right? It’s a lot better to have made it this long than to not. So I’m going to say now is the best age, because the truth is, is you’d prefer to continue to have that now than not.

Jeff iPhone or Android?

Oh, easily iPhone. I’ve been a mac user since the early 2000, man. It is so much easier to use. So many less problems. So much less like falling apart crap that I deal with. I love all this is like an apple sort of send up, but I love those products. I’m not going to lie.

Jeff, we can’t thank you enough for being here with us today. And I know that John and I will probably continue this conversation offline because it’s just fascinating. And and I hope that the financial professionals listening have taken some of these ideas and really taking them to heart and thinking about their own friendships and client relationships. And for those of you listening that would like to learn more about Dr. Hall’s research, check out his lab at R and T lab dot Q, dot edu. That’s the relationships and technology lab. And feel free to grab your own copy of his book relating through technology and in the show notes, we have a code for 20% off if you order through the Cambridge University Press. Again, thank you, Jeff, for your time and insights today.

Thank you. It’s been a pleasure.

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