In this episode, we’re joined by Professor Catherine Noakes to explore the Civic Exchange — an initiative at the University of Leeds that's rethinking how universities and communities work together.

We cover:

🔸 What the Civic Exchange is (and isn't) — it's not about doing new things, but about connecting what's already happening across research, education, and engagement

🔸 Moving from "doing things for communities" to co-creating with them — and why that shift matters

🔸 The persistence of "town and gown" and what it takes to break it down

🔸 What Cath's career — from engineering to the SAGE Committee during the pandemic — taught her about working in partnership, understanding different motivations, and not assuming you have all the answers

🔸 The assumptions we make across disciplines about impact — and how arts, humanities, and sciences have more in common than we think

🔸 What a civic university of the future might look like, and why devolution could be both a carrot and a stick

A few favourite moments from the conversation:

"If you get it right, what you get out the end is so much richer and so much more powerful and impactful." — Cath Noakes

"We do need experts, but many of the people we work with are also experts in a different way." — Cath Noakes

Big thanks to Cath for a genuinely thoughtful conversation. If you're working in or around universities, community partnerships, or research culture, I think you'll find this one interesting.

🔗 Link to listen in the comments below

Links to some of our topics:

Mark Reed’s podcast episode on engagement: Episode 44: What is good practice engagement and impact?

Experimenting with different project leadership structures: Project Toolkit Launched – LivingBodiesObjects

Latest on The Civic Exchange here at Leeds: The Civic Exchange | University of Leeds

So hello and welcome to the Research Culture Uncovered podcast. I'm Alix Brodie-Wray, faculty impact development manager in the Faculty of Arts, Humanities and Cultures here at the University of Leeds. In this episode, I'm delighted to have been joined by Professor Catherine Noakes, or commonly known as Cath at the university, to talk about an initiative that feels particularly timely, the Civic Exchange.

Uh, for me, it feels as though higher education is at something of a crossroads. Uh, we're living through a period of political, economic and social uncertainty, and universities are being asked difficult questions about their role in society. On the one hand, we're anchor institutions. We provide jobs, investment, expertise and infrastructure.

But on the other hand, universities can still be perceived as distant or exclusive, with the old idea of town and gown often persisting. And at the same time, from my point of view as an impact person, one of the most persistent myths is that, is that impact only really counts when it travels a long way, and there's often an assumption that international reach is somehow more valuable than local significance.

And yet some of the most meaningful and transformative impacts happen right on our doorstep. So universities have enormous potential to connect people, knowledge and ideas, and most people listening will, will agree. Uh, but because of our structures, hierarchies and our silos, it can sometimes be difficult for those connections to happen.

What strikes me about the Civic Exchange is that it feels like a slightly different initiative. Um, from what I've seen so far, rather than asking how universities can do things for communities, seems to ask how universities can work with communities to tackle shared challenges. Um, we'll start by learning a bit more about the initiative, but, uh, if we have a chance, I'll also ask Cath a little bit more about what's brought her to, to work in this sphere.

Uh, so Cath, perhaps a good place to start is what is the Civic Exchange?

Hi. Thank you, Alix, and I'm really pleased to be here today on your podcast. Um, in a way, you've kind of started off really well on there in, in how describing it because it is very much about how we, we move from being, uh, I, I guess a sort of we, we, we do some work with people to actually we're in much more in partnership and we're co-creating and working together on things as opposed to, uh, in that silo.

Um, and the Civic Exchange is, is not necessarily about doing lots of new things. It's about how we do what we do already better in a more connected way. So we do loads of stuff that's related to civic across the university, and I, I... Every day I find out more. Um- That goes across our student education, it goes across our research and innovation, it goes across knowledge exchange, it goes across public engagement, community engagement, sustainability, the whole raft.

Um, but lots of those things happen really well, but happen independently, and we don't connect them up. Um, and therefore, we don't see the bigger picture. We don't see the impact. We don't see where we actually are already working more strategically or could be working more strategically. So it's about bringing it together.

It's about recognizing what people are doing already and being more strategic. And it is very much about working together with partners, the people in the city and the region, the place, how we then use that to drive innovation, to be more... tackle challenges that are important for the regions and connect and deliver that positive impact for communities.

Um, so on a more practical note, you know, there is a kind of... obviously, with all these things, you have to have a bunch of aims and objectives. You have to have a plan. Um, the plan is still evolving, as with all these things. Um, but the kind of aims are around, you know, increasing internal visibility and coordination, enhancing that external recognition of what we do and impact, and being able to then maximize what we do currently and future opportunities for, for projects, for partnerships and things.

And, and that, you know, starts to couch it back a bit in university language. We have to always, you know... We-- You can't take all of that away, but it is very much about thinking how do we work together. Um, so on a practical level, um, the civic exchange is, is relatively simple in some senses. We have, um, a fellowship, which is people who've been, um, initially appointed as inaugural fellows in the university.

These are t- largely senior people who are working, um, in partnership already with, um, people across the city and the region, um, and are working across multiple different areas, but who, who have that good experience. So they are like a community of practice connecting them together. Um, a big chunk of it is around external comms and how we showcase what we do, how we support, you know, those, those...

Make things more visible, and that works for both the university and for all of its partners, being more visible about what we do and why and when we're doing things well. Um- And also, you know, it, it's not a sort of major events type activity, but there are some things where we've some more deliberately working, um, with partners, sometimes as the convener, sometimes as, as, you know, participants, but things like at roundtables or events and being engaged with those conversations that are important for the city and the region

That's really interesting.

I mean, a couple things sort of stood out to me there around, you know, that idea that this is, um, this isn't just a new initiative that's gonna try and repeat what people have already tried to do. You know, I think, I mean, maybe it's universal 'cause sometimes I think, "Oh, well, Leeds are such a large institution, it's, it's so complicated," but when I was working at the University of Brighton, w- I think we had similar issues really around, um, you know, really well-meaning, you know, projects happening almost organically, but then accidentally repeating themselves.

So I think it's kind of heartening when you said, you know, that it's evolving because you're not sort of placing the horse before the cart and promising the moon on a stick, and that everything's gonna be marvelous. You're sort of being pragmatic, which I quite like.

Yeah, I think you're right on that.

And, and it is very much about recognizing what we already do and how we can make sure we do that better or to the best of what we can do. So yeah, some of it is about avoiding repeating. Some of it, you know, we will do stuff which grows organically. There'll be ... Nearly every partnership happens because somebody has a relationship, and they click, and it works, and you make something happen off the back of it.

But I think it perhaps will help people to sustain those relationships and to build something bigger from them. Um, you know, so there'll be some partners, for example, you know, Leeds City Council is a good example who, you know, we work with them pretty strategically, but lots and lots and lots of people in the university will have a connection with somebody at Leeds City Council.

And those, they, those projects all happen or initiatives happen independently to some extent, and sometimes people know about other things, but sometimes they don't, and you suddenly realize you, you've got multiple connections to the same organization. Mm-hmm. And we haven't necessarily joined the dots. Um, and this doesn't mean we are gonna join up absolutely every dot.

And, and it also, really importantly, it doesn't mean we are going to, um, control what people do. It's not about- Mm-hmm ... us saying, "You must do this," or, "You must- Mm-hmm ... didn't do that." It is about us being able to connect things and then when, you know, not everything is suited to a more bigger strategic initiative, but everything can be more visible.

I think that recognition thing is really important actually. You know, in my conversations with academics, there can be a sense that, well, nobody's noticing, or I'm not being recognized for the work I'm doing. And, and then there's accidentally if, if you're sort of central or in a different part of the university You can compound that, and then it, I think it can have, at worst, a negative effect in terms of that academic's engagement with things if they feel like, or assumptions are made, um, around that what they've done isn't big enough or valuable enough.

Um, then, you know, they, they kind of lose interest in it or feel, feel sort of put out or marginalized somehow.

Yeah, I, I know what you mean by that, and I think it's actually important. It's not just academics who are doing this. Yeah. There's a lot of professional services staff who, who do some of this as well, and building that recognition and connection, um

I, I mean, we're, you know, I, I've My background is more in the research and innovation space, um- Mm ... and sort of where I've, my career, I've, I've done more in the sort of leadership in that space, and I had less awareness of the leadership around student education. Mm-hmm. Um, and then one of the really interest- things I've a- actually really enjoyed is finding out about all of the initiatives and projects th- that sit within the more of the student education and some of the community engagement spaces, which I didn't know a lot about some of those before.

And, and then, of course, you start trying to connect people. So you sort of, you know, we, you, you bring together people who are fellows in the s- from ... who are working on student education facing activities vers- with people who are working on R&I activities, and they start talking, and they start to realize that they are working with some of the same partners, but they are talking different languages, and they use different methods, and they're using different ways of engaging.

And being able to share that knowledge, um, is hugely beneficial for people. Um, I mean, one of the other things we are doing is collating data. Um, this is a classic case of something that starts life as, ooh, shouldn't we collect some data, and then mushrooms into something that's huge. But it's really fascinating.

We've, we've got a mechanism for trying to collect data now from people, and the amount of stuff and the amount of projects that, and information and initiatives that come out the woodwork and, and, you know, okay, some of these things I knew about, knew were happening. Other things I'm like, "I didn't know we did that.

Isn't that brilliant?" Mm. Sort of thing. And even if those things are not gonna turn into a major strategic partnership, you know they're happening, and you're like, um, when somebody says, "Oh, we're, we're doing such and such a thing," you say, "Oh, hang on a minute. I think I know somebody who does know something about that."

Mm-hmm. And you just start to put people in touch with each other and connect things up, and that, that feels to me as, a- again, as powerful as doing a, a big strategic-y thing.

Yeah, and I know what you mean because, you know, my, my career as a research professional started in a pre-award space, um, at University of Brighton.

And I just had this penny drop moment when I was like, "Oh yeah, well, they have industry partners on the modules." And then from a lived experience of an academic, you know, they're talking to those partners in a completely different context, and that has its own value, but it a- can also turn into a research collaboration.

So it's like it's not, you know, you've put these i- you know, things in boxes and, and through an academic's career it's much more fluid.

Yeah, absolutely. I, and I think, I think that's something that I hope the Civic Exchange will do within the university, is support that internal connectivity and support that recognition of the, the different facets of what we do and the different people who do those things, and how they can all be, um, how they can all work together onto common goals.

Yeah, sure. Absolutely. I mean, I think that leads us, you know, like, and you alluded to this a little bit as well, but onto a question I wanted to ask you about your own career and your own journey, and you finding yourself working on an initiative like the Civic Exchange. So what have you learnt that sort of brought you to this, this place?

Yeah, so that, that's a really interesting question. Um, so prior to this I've worked quite a lot with policy. Um, I think you may know, but perhaps some of the listeners don't, that I did a lot of work during the pandemic. I was very heavily involved with government, um, as part of the Sage Committee during the pandemic, and, um, therefore worked with a lot of different government departments on very rapid policy needs and things there.

So I-- that's not so much civic as working with policy- Mm. But really thinking about impact and how you engage with different people, and that was very much on a national level. And I did little pockets of local stuff. I, I'm relatively new to the civic bit of this. But I think there are some I- important things there from how you work with external partners, um, and how you work, not just sort of, "I'm delivering a project for you," or we-- you know, it's m- more about how you work collaboratively together on a shared goal.

Um, and I think there is that ... Yeah, I guess it's like with anything, building that relationship. So working out what you, you know, learning who each other are, learning what your motivations are- Mm-hmm ... finding where those areas are of common interest and common need. Um, and recognizing then that there might be different agendas at play.

Um, so, you know, a, a, a good example from work I've done in the past around, um, when we were looking at COVID-19 and we're thinking about schools, and, you know, I was very much thinking, "How do you prevent infection?" Um, but perhaps Department for Education were thinking, "How do we, um, enable children to come to school and support attendance?"

And the two things had the same answer. Um, but the motivations are slightly different, and really sort of understanding how you, uh, what those different motivations and what the different stakeholders need from something. Um, I think the other thing I learnt f- across my career is for some of these things to work, you have to go beyond your own little thing.

Um, you know, everybody ha- everybody has their thing that they do and, you know, but, I, it, it, it's no good me saying, "I've done this great piece of research," um, "I've written a policy brief, and therefore policy should m- do this." Because when you start working with policymakers and practitioners, you realize there's an enormous complexity to all of the decisions.

There are very few easy answers out there in the world, and we've, we've found out most of them already. Um, so even if your little thing might be a good thing to do, it doesn't mean that everybody should do it, because it doesn't-- there is often a whole bunch of other knock-on consequences and complexities that matter.

And I think learning to think about that bigger picture and recognizing- Mm ... the different motivations and the different complexities, and yes, even if something would be a good idea, there's a reason we're not going to do it because of all these other things. Um- Mm-hmm ... and I, that's, that's something that I think I've learnt.

I think- I, I think there's also that piece about never assuming and always trying to keep an open mind. Um, and I, you know, we, we all make assumptions, and we all bring our own experiences to things and our own biases. Um, and I think the more you work on complex challenges in partnership, whether that's at national level, whether it's locally, regionally, really trying to be open about the fact there will be a bunch of different viewpoints, and there's not necessarily a single right answer.

And how the activities we do, whether that's research and innovation or whether it's how we deliver education and, um, engage with communities around education and training, how we might have-- There might be ways of doing these things which a-actually are different to what we're used to

Yeah, that's really interesting 'cause I think I've seen that happen, you know, there's, as even in, within the university in terms of, you know, and I talk about that in an abstract sense between disciplines sometimes where, you know, there's a slightly different use of language, um, or there's an assumption that something is, is more cutting edge.

I don't know if that's the right word. I mean, I'm kind of interested generally working in arts and humanities about, um, some of the assumptions we make about impact, um, and how similar th- they actually are in the sciences. Mm-hmm. So we talk a lot, lot about our differences, which are really important. But actually, you know, speaking to early career scientists, um, i- through things like I was helping to, um, to s- to, to, uh, deliver the policy Kickstarter and I got chatting to a few academics, um, from fluid dynamics and various things- Yeah

I hadn't when I was helping, you know, with the Building Impact Momentum program and talking to people about, uh, I don't even know if I've got the right word, quantum, uh, kind of tiny little lasers using computers. Yeah. And it was like, you know, I guess what I ... A roundabout way of saying that don't assume, but actually often sometimes in some disciplines will think, "Oh, my, my area is so me, so niche.

It's important to me. Um, I'm not sure if it has much impact, uh, so I think I'll just try and protect it." Um, they're missing opportunities to find those connections that actually there's somebody over in the science building who's having the same kind of imposter syndrome, if, if that's the right word, or that same sort of lack of confidence around impact because they're like, "Oh, well, I'm just working on this tiny little amoeba," whatever it is.

Like, what, how is that gonna impact anyone else? And so, so I think in arts sometimes we can assume people don't see the value of it. Um, and actually, you know, in sciences people can assume it's not applicable or if it's not done how they think it's done, it won't be done correctly. Does that make sense?

That totally makes sense. And I, I, you know, I, I totally agree with that. I think that we, we make so many assumptions and I, I- Mm-hmm ... I know ... I mean, I've worked in an interdisciplinary work a- area for a long time. Um, my back ... I'm an engineer by background and that means by nature, I, you know, try and go and find the practical solution to something.

That's, that's what I'm- Mm-hmm ... I'm sort of programmed to do. And I, I think working with people from so many different areas has made me more aware of the You know, what, what makes, what's good in different spaces, what makes something work in different areas. Mm. Um, and again, not to assume something, uh, you know, making sure that, you know, uh, uh, and actually, you know, learning to recognize the value in the things that perhaps are not the thing you do.

Yeah, absolutely. Um, and I, and I think that, I mean, that plays out across the whole of what we do in the university. But I, it then plays out into how we work in partnerships and how we- Mm ... you know, uh, and it's, it's also sometimes, you know, you might look at problem, you know, challenges that a city or a region might be facing, and your, your immediate reaction might be, "Well, you know, we're a university, we don't really do that."

And then you think- Mm ... you start thinking about it, think, "Well, actually, maybe we do. Maybe we do have a role in this, or maybe we, you know, we, we either have research capabilities, or we have physical space, or we have people, or we have resources, or we have ways of thinking and ways of interacting or ability to monitor and evaluate."

We have all sorts of things where actually the university isn't just, uh, playing a role. It can be quite core to how- Mm ... as a partner in something.

Mm. Yeah. That's interesting, isn't it? And then, 'cause that, the other kind of prong of assumptions is the assumptions we make outside of the campus, isn't it?

About, uh, what communities need, what local government needs. Um, and I don't know about you, but I feel like the sector's more open to the idea not only that we have expertise to share, but that, but that maybe we have a lot to learn as well.

I agree. I agree. I think, you know... And there are, there are some things that people assume about universities which are true, and- Mm-hmm

and which are uncomfortable truths for us. Mm. There are, uh, or there are other things which are not true, and actually, but actually by building those relationships, building that dialogue helps to really h- um, make, enable that crossover understanding between, um, different people

Yeah, I think, yeah, because it's

Yeah, I mean, I remember I went... I don't wanna name and, and shame. I did-- I think it happens a little bit at Leeds, but some, some university towns, it's, it's more obvious than others, you know, where you get that real sense that the university feels like a completely separate entity to the kind of lived experiences of the people- Yeah

who live in that city, and I do think that is quite a sad state of affairs.

I agree, and, uh, uh, and I don't think you can ever completely break it down because- Mm-hmm ... you know, universities do have a, a core role around delivering higher education and- and research and innovation. But I think there's an awful lot more we can do to, to tackle wherever we've got barriers there, and to enable our campus to feel more open, to e-enable, um, you know, greater level of belonging and interaction with communities, enable people who perhaps think that they don't belong here to belong here.

But also to make sure we properly give back. We're, we're not just ... We, we, you know, as a university, we are part of our community. We're a really important part of the community, but we're not the only part of that community, and I think, you know ... And, and there's an awful lot that happens. You know, I've found out so much about things like student volunteering and how much- Mm

happens with the community. Um, but, you know, e-enabling that to be visible, um, and then actually being, uh, open to where we are. We're not getting it right, 'cause we don't always get it right. But, um, I think we feels like we get it right More than we don't. Yeah. But, so, but, but there will be places we could g- could do things better.

Yeah. Yeah. And I can think about times it's felt a bit risky somehow to, to do that public engagement work or that outreach work and, you know, people I've dealt with have been kind of nervous about that in case it doesn't stick to the script or the, you know, the reputation we have. But, um, but I don't know, I guess in this age of so many different voices, then maybe that's more possible than ever to say, you know, school of such and such thinks this, but we welcome different points of view or, like, people from different backgrounds too.

Yeah. I, I think so. I think, you know, a- and again, there are, there are still challenges, there are still, uh, groups who rightly feel marginalized and things. Mm. But, um, I th- I think, you know, the, I think things have moved and I think it makes us a better organization for it. It makes our research better, it makes our knowledge exchange better, it makes our student education better because you're connecting much more.

You're thinking about real world- Mm ... complex challenges as opposed to idealized scenarios in a, in a silo.

Yeah. And I think that makes for more creative engagement. Um- Yeah ... I'll link it in the show notes, but I read, I listened to a podcast, um, by Mark Reid about a, a mistake he'd made. Um, so he's, you know, an a- uh, impact expert, but he's also an academic, uh, working on, like, I think soil science and that sort of thing.

And he'd had a public engagement event, um, which relied heavily on quite a lot of written material, and he'd invited people from the community to come and there was a very unfriendly sort of group there, and he realized that, you know, they were working in these farm spaces. Um, but they weren't literate.

So, like, his engagement technique, I'm, I'm probably butchering what he actually said, but it stuck with me because I think we have all these modes we're so used to at the university, like journal articles and papers and books and, um, you know, words we use and it's like When you, you can kind of... If you're not listening to people and meeting them where they're at, then that can just make things worse.

I don't know. Um, but I guess it's sometimes trial and error, isn't it? And just knowing, just trying things and just being receptive to that feedback.

I agree, and I think, I know, I mean, y- y- your podcast is Research Culture- and actually thinking how this affects research culture.

I, I do think that that partnership working, uh, uh, not just we're doing a project and we're going to go and do some poli- some roundtables and a workshop- Mm

at the end to share it. More of actually we're really co-creating and we're really co-delivering. Mm. I think that enables us to be better researchers. I think- Mm ... it enables more opportunities for more people. Um, and, you know, it, it, it's, it sort of changes the power dynamic a bit. It's not so much, you know, it's, it's not just about, you know, the PI doing the, you know, leading the thing.

It, it's more collaborative- Mm-hmm ... and more about teams. Um, I guess the challenge with all of that is actually enabling the right resources to do it- Mm ... and enabling people to be recognized for what they do. Because even within that, people still sort of... It, there are some, some people who work incredibly hard to facilitate a lot of engagement, but perhaps don't get the same recognition as- Mm-hmm

you know, the person who does the, the whizzy analysis on something. Um-

a- a- and thinking about how... And, and I think that also plays into conversations that we already have, but need to keep having with those who fund research because- Mm ... you know, when you work, when, when you do work a co- in partnership, you need, you need to not just fund the people at the university, you need to fund the partners, too.

Mm-hmm. And you need to recognize all the people involved. And, a- and It, it does slow down research because it takes time to get that engagement right. It takes time to e- enable those conversations to happen and for people to trust and build relationships. Um, a- and we need that to be properly recognised in how we run projects and things because otherwise you,

y- you know, you, you won't succeed and it... Yet if you get it right, what you get out the end is so much richer and so much more powerful and impactful, um-

Yeah, I totally agree. Yeah. And I think it's, it's interesting to see across the university some of the people experimenting a little bit with hierarchies when it comes to research funding.

Um, so we had a good, uh, I'm sure this is not the only example, but project's called Living Bodies Objects, um, in, uh, across a few schools in our faculty. And they s- they, you know, they're very honest as well about what worked and didn't work, but they had a different leadership, you know, from the, the traditional PI.

Um, it was a lot more collaborative, and they were very explicit about everybody getting a chance to lead. And it did cause problems, it did make things slower, but I think, um, you know, what they got avoided some of the sort of toxicity as well that, that can, uh, ultimately undermine research and, and in its kind of ongoing life because sometimes, you know, if you have a classic PI, the superstar academic chasing the professorship, chasing the REF impact case study, and everyone underneath them can just go to hell just like standing on top-of the pyramid, and they're the one getting the prize, but it's like everything's gonna crumble beneath you, and you won't be able to take the next step, you know? So, um, but yeah, it's interesting about funders 'cause sometimes those structures are just there, aren't they, from the funding application. Um, and it's like how do we sort of advocate for- Yeah

a slightly different model.

I agree. And, and actually taking that now back to the civic exchange- um, one of the things we sort of deliberately have done in there is to not turn it into a, a, a, a, a, a complex structure with a leadership structure. So you have to-- When you've got something like this, you have to have a, a, a, some form of coordination 'cause otherwise- Yes

it's not gonna work. So we have a coordination group, um, drawn from across academic and professional services, and the different people who engage with it, so people from, um, av- uh, myself from, um, the PVC's office and, and Fiona from PVC's office and then people from Knowledge Exchange in RIS. We've got student education equivalent to me, and we've got comms in there.

And we -- I suppose I act as a nominal chair, but I'm not- I'm not in charge, if that makes sense. Yeah, okay. It's more of a coordination. And the same with, you know, the idea of the fellows is that they are... There's not a hierarchy, and we've not got a s- bunch of formal meetings and formal minutes, and it doesn't go up to decision-making.

Yeah, sometimes we have to report, but it's not... Um, so I think again, that, uh, you know, it, it, it's, it's, it's an interesting... It's a way of working that we've, we've, we're figuring our way through. Yeah, sure. And, and it is working. It's working really well, but it's a little bit more flat in terms of a leadership structure.

Mm. And there's, there's not a sort of, you know, one person in charge who, and you, you've got your, your classic pyramid. Um, and that we felt was really important for when we set up the Civic Exchange. So we're not... It, it, it, it, it's not about formal committees and formal, um, structures. It, it's more about coordinating activities.

Yeah, that sounds... I mean, yeah, I think that sounds really promising personally. And I think the, you know, the commitment to it is clear as well. So, um, you know, and I can see some of the fellows who I happen to work with are doing so much as well. Um, and it feels like they've been given a little bit of freedom as well to sort of, to sort of take it where they want to.

Yeah. We, we very much want the fellows to, to, to do that and to take some initiatives and lead some things and, you know, uh, I say it's more of a community of practice and working- Yeah ... on an, on, you know, a, a common high-level goal- Mm ... as opposed to, you know- More of a sort of structured project type thing.

Yeah. Everybody kind of meeting in a musty room, like every month- Yeah ... to go over the same stuff. Oh, it's really exciting. Um, I did have a sort of whimsical question at the end of sorts, but, uh, what would a civic university of the future look like?

Because I think, I, I think this is happening at a point where we've, we've, we've touched on earlier about working differently, breaking down that gown and town. Um, um, I, I, I th- I think it's coming at a time where, um, there's greater scrutiny over the role of universities and a greater need for universities to be clear about their value, um, and not just, as you said, I think you said right at the beginning about, you know, that perception that something that happens a long way away is a greater impact than something that happens on your doorstep.

And actually breaking that down and being, and actually thinking more about how we are, um, more embedded locally. I think I'm really interested to see what happens over the next year or so around the devolution agen- uh, because obviously at the same time as we're having those conversations about the role of universities and how they, uh, uh, interact in regions, um, there is the, you know, we're already seeing more resource devolved regionally, and there is a suggestion that's gonna happen even further.

Um- Mm-hmm ... and then that, you know- I think what, I guess it's both a carrot and a stick for civic activity. There is opportunity in the sense of there is money and, um, or possibly money. You never, never say never in here. But, but, but you know, the, the resource to work, there's also an expectation to work together.

Um- Mm. But I actually think there's some real benefits to that civic, being a civic university. I think it's, uh, enabling us to do things differently, more flexibly, more innovatively, so different ways of how we might do learning and teaching and training. Thinking about, you know, what does the next generation need to learn and how will they learn?

It's maybe completely different. Mm-hmm. You know, lots of conversations happening at the moment nationally and locally around NEAT, and there's, you know- Mm, mm-hmm. And, you know, what role do universities play in that, um, and, and how, you know, that might shift future ways in which we work. AI is another one.

How does everybody respond to AI, and how does that play into things? Um, I think, you know, research and innovation has become I, I, some of my, some of my STEM colleagues will hate me for this, but we, we've solved a lot of the, the easy problems. We've solved a lot of the single discipline stuff. Mm-hmm.

What's left is the complex stuff. Uh- Mm-hmm ... and I know there are places we can still go much deeper and learn more fundamental science, and we never take away from that curiosity driven science. But the, there are some really big, complex real world things that can only be understood and have an impact if we work together.

We can't do them just in- Mm-hmm ... a silo, so we have to work in partnership. Um, I think that, yeah, the, you know, the traditional view of universities in a city has been about universities leading things. I think it's that shifting, it's that partnership working and how we make that work. I think if we get it right, it, it gives us more resilience.

We're more embedded- Mm-hmm. Yeah ... within the, within our region. We're more embedded in a city. Um, w- we've got those, those ... You spread out your opportunities and you spread out your ways in which you can connect, ways in which you can have impact, and that makes you a more resilient and a more, um, collegiate place.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I, yeah, I, I think there's a huge opportunity in here. Yeah. Um, how it, how that pans out, it'll be good to see.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. I'll ... I mean, I guess, you know, I was thinking about a few years ago when people were saying, people, I guess, in media, there was this phrase, um, "We're sick of experts."

Um, but I guess, you know, the more we can do in the civic space, the more people through their lived experiences will have worked on something that we're involved in, and then they'll go, "I actually see the value of that." That's what I'd hope in a utopia. I- They see the value of that. It's not just obscure.

It's not just hidden behind a special language. Um-

Yeah, I agree, and recognizing what ... Yeah, I think an expert who, who just is isolated and just tells you something and expects you to absorb that and act on it- Is, uh, isn't the right way of doing it anymore. Um, we do need experts, but then recognising that many of the people we will work with are also experts in a different way.

Yes. And they're, they, they have a different set of knowledge, experiences, uh, capabilities, expertise that actually by putting them together with some of the, you know, the more traditional academic expertise, we can do things that are more powerful.

Brilliant. Um, that seems like a perfect note on which to finish, but this has been a really interesting discussion, Cath, and, um, it- for anyone listening, I guess, you know, if they wanna find out more about what happens with the Civic Exchange, 'cause it feels like an exciting sort of experiment or an early stage of something quite exciting, um, you know, I can link to the website, but is there anything else that they can sort of connect with at this point?

Or is it just a matter of, you know- I think- ... wait and see?

Link to the website, definitely. Yeah. And have a look a bit about what it is all about. Um, we hoping we'll have something a bit more internal, uh, sort of- Mm-hmm ... on the SharePoint coming up soon. Um, we will have, um, late autumn, probably December-ish time, but we're not sure exactly yet, we will be opening another call for, uh, people to join the fellowship, so that's, that's a future opportunity.

And of course, if people have got, um, stuff happening and w- we, they think we don't know about it, drop us a line. Get in touch. Very- Yeah ... always very happy to hear, um- Brilliant ... thoughts and interesting, cool things that are happening.