The Art and Strategy of Coaching Packages

In this episode, Angie and John discuss the challenges and considerations in designing coaching packages.

They highlight the importance of setting appropriate durations for coaching engagements to ensure client success.

Key topics include the feasibility of shorter packages, pricing strategies, the value of group vs. one-on-one coaching, and the importance of aligning package offerings with client needs and business goals.

They also share insights from their own coaching experiences, emphasizing the need for a solid framework, clear expectations, and understanding the client's objectives to deliver meaningful results.

Do you have any questions or feedback for John & Angie? Leave us a voicemail. It's free and if we like it we might just feature you on the show. Go to https://speakpipe.com/thecoachingclinicpodcast.com

00:00 Introduction and Client Complaint

01:24 The Importance of Coaching Packages

02:20 Challenges in Offering Shorter Packages

07:21 Group Coaching vs. One-on-One Coaching

19:25 Pricing and Value in Coaching

24:45 Final Thoughts and Listener Engagement

Angie

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Angie: John,

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John: of my clients is complaining

that my package is too long.

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Angie: I'm sorry.

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I'm trying to be, I'm trying to

do this with a straight face.

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Okay, but what is this?

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Like a carry on film?

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Yes, John, that does sound

like quite the pickle.

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Oh,

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John: Yeah, she wants a three month

package instead of six months.

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Angie: well, do you offer

a three month package?

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John: No, no one's going to

get results in three months.

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Angie: And that means what?

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John: Um, I just answered my own question.

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Angie: Yes, you did.

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Let's start the show.

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John: Angie, I know that this isn't,

maybe one of the deepest issues that we've

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ever been into, but it's an important one

because a lot of coaches, and I say, I was

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saying insufficient as well, don't really

know how to package up the coaching,

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like how long should you work with the

client for what's a reasonable amount

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of time to expect results, or do you

have a process or framework that you're

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going to work with your clients with that

actually takes a specific amount of time.

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What are your thoughts?

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Angie: You know, what's so funny is that

although you might identify this as not

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one of our deepest session topics, I

would say to you that this was a really

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tough challenge for me because I had

created content based on experience

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and flow of what I thought deliverables

and outcomes could look like, right?

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Does it cover the bases?

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Is it complete?

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Does it do what it's supposed to do?

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And then, I've had people come and say,

Well, I don't know, I think the biggest

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reason that I've had people that wanted

to do it, Shorter was because of money.

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They thought if they got less

sessions that it could be less

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expensive Hmm, so I did the job.

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I have to I'm being honest.

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I definitely was like, okay Well, let

me see how we can make this work for

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you So I would say for about a year

in my coaching practice I was trying

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to even say all right, let me make

a lower level package for people who

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can't afford what the regular package

cost or my signature package costs.

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And then it dawned on me, lower level.

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Hmm.

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I just said that, right?

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So yeah there was a lot

of learning there for me.

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John: I feel the same.

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It very much felt like too many things

were on bits and pieces here, if I wasn't

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really doing set amounts of sessions

with people, it's okay, well, I did

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allow times where people would just pay

monthly , and that was primarily with

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people who had been working with me a

long time who just wanted to stay in and

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just say, okay you know, if it helps you

to stay in and you want to keep working

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with me, let's keep you on a monthly.

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So that was almost like a retainer

rather than anything else.

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I don't mind it in that situation

But still I would rather have people

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bought into a package so that I know

how long they're gonna be working with

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me and I think Three months is never

really enough , for anyone to get

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viable results in a particular area.

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They can get started and they feel good,

but if you're having to have a renewal

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conversation, regular check ins and a

renewal conversation within three months,

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and they're looking through , if you

haven't clearly set expectations, and I

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think even if you have, people maybe are

going to think that they can do far more

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in three months than they really can.

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So I don't think it's a great idea to

start working with someone and say We've

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got three months together before we think

about where you're going to go from here I

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would much rather have six months and that

is not working in a specific framework.

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All right this month we're going to

do these bits and these ones because

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certainly in those things I know

I probably could do a three month

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package or if I could get someone to

the result that they come to me for in

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three months I'm going to do a three

month package But for most part for

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coaching, that's likely to go ongoing.

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I'm going to do a six

month package with them.

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And if they do want to renew, I'm

going to encourage them to go to a

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12 month package because that's going

to be more cost effective for them.

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And they already know that they

wanna work with me so that's

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pretty much where I'm at with it.

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Angie: I think what you just said,

I feel like, one of the things that

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I've learned, the conversations I've

learned to have with people is, and

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we've talked about this what is it

that you're looking to get out of this?

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And I have had, clients that have come

in and have gotten, far more advanced.

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More quickly during the process, but

that doesn't mean that I stop It means

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that they're more advanced that I

need to still take them to a different

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place right on a different level

and My experience taught me that not

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that there's a set amount of time But

there is definitely you know a lot of

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nuances that happen between the first

and third and fourth session a really

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foundational To me, that's what I found.

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My experience showed me that,

because I didn't just willy nilly

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go, Oh, let me make my packages

in time, my packages by session.

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So, if I'm selling a 12 session package,

I know what the framework is or where I'm

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going with that because, you know, I don't

just show up and go, Hey, let's talk.

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That's not generally how I do it.

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Although there might be sessions where,

we go into a different direction.

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And that's the beauty of coaching

is that we can flex as we need to.

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But I always try to say to the person who

wants it for less money, well, do you feel

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that I could deliver great value to you?

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Because for me, it's very value based.

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It's not financial value based.

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It's What do you want to get out of

this right because and it's so funny as

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many times It's turned out that those

people are the most stuck I don't know

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what that correlation is, but that is

absolutely have been part of my findings

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So the thing is that money and time it

is for some people I don't know where I

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would find the time and I make the joke

and say show me your phone and I will

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find you The time for six months, right?

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I just know it.

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I'm confident in that But I, they

need to understand what the value is,

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that we're not just looking to rush

through this and what, you've made this

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major transformation in three months.

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Mm, I'm a little suspect if somebody

promised that to me, and I'm a

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pretty high level self aware person.

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If you came across to me and said, Hey,

, I can transform you in three months.

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I would, calling it out.

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John: I feel like it's almost easier

to figure these things out with

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group programs than with one-to-one

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Angie: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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John: I

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Angie: mean, there's other alternative.

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Yeah.

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John: Yeah, do you, I mean, do you

have a group program at the moment that

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you, yeah, so what would you generally

do with packaging that for people?

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Yeah, I

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Angie: for that, and that's

actually, it's pretty similar, except

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that, it's in that group setting.

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I feel like we get less

done per session that way.

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So those can run a little bit longer.

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So it doesn't fix or address the

time challenge that some people have.

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And honestly, if somebody wants that,

I just tell them that I'm not the

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right coach for them at this point.

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My packages are based on

results and it's results driven.

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If I bring in a group, well, I

have, I have a couple of group

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coaching opportunities for

offerings that I've created.

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And maybe they're a little more surface.

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They're a little more superficial, right?

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Because it's hard.

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You can't do the deep, deep,

deep work when you're in a group.

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It's just not the same.

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So I do approach that a little

bit differently and that

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will Affect cost for sure.

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Sure, sure,

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John: I don't have a group program of

my own currently, but when I have done

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them, it has generally been six months.

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Coaching alongside a

program that they're in.

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Really similar stuff to a program that

I work in now and that have worked in

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before that there'll be a, it'll be a six

month cycle generally of group coaching.

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But what I find with that is

I'm more inclined to leverage

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my time with group anyway.

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And I actually prefer

delivering group coaching.

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Sometimes the group will help

get the stuck people unstuck.

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And also sometimes you'll end

up with people in the group

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who take over a little bit.

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So it isn't, I think it isn't, it

is important to make sure you manage

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those groups well, but I also have a

bit of a sense of the people who are

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jumping in and asking the questions and

sometimes taking over a bit on the calls.

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They're doing that.

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Everyone else has, everyone

has the opportunity to do that.

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If they're not doing that, I'm going to

encourage them, I might say, if it gets

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a bit ridiculous with someone, yeah,

okay, let's move, let's come back to

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some of your questions, but we need to

give some other people a chance to share.

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So I'm not going to let that go like

they can take the whole call, but I

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also want other people on there to

think, why am I just sitting back and

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letting everyone else lead the way?

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Why aren't I sharing?

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Why am I doing this?

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So I'm going to be

encouraging them to step up.

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I do feel that sometimes there is a

community space that does help people.

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Yeah.

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They may not want to share their most

intimate details and group calls are

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generally not the sense of doing that.

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The programs I do are not generally

the setting for doing that either.

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So I don't really feel like I need

to worry about it in a sort of

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therapy situation or are people

going to share their deepest.

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They, I don't need them to, they don't

need to, but I do feel that there

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is a lot of space for them to learn

from each other in the group and to

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help each other through the program

as, as well as me helping them and

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leading those calls from the front.

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Angie: that you said that because

I think I do exactly the same

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thing in my group coaching and

I tell people the truth, right?

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Certainly I have a group coaching

program and it is essentially parallel

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to one of the programs that I offer.

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Listen, let's face it though, too.

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Just for people who are listening

and saying, what do you mean?

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We've been around for a minute.

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We're not new to coaching and over a

period of years What you start to do

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is realize that there are gaps that

show up right in A specific space and

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you go I want to address that and i'm

going to create something around that

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not everybody does that some people just

stick with this is all I do all day every

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day You And this is the framework that

I use and I think that's great, right?

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It's great to be able to do that I

did create for a period of time and it

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really wasn't unsuccessful depending

on how you measure the success, but I

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did do a It was like an introductory

program that was six sessions long and

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what it did was It was specifically,

the framework was very specific

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that it was all about foundational

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work.

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It was almost like, you know how we

have a discovery call, we get on the

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call and say, Hey, are we a good fit?

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What's this person need?

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And, or do we want to work together?

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Is it mutual?

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All of that.

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This was an extension of that, where

it was like, okay, if you want to

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come into this introductory program,

Be aware that we're going to be

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looking for foundational pieces.

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We're looking at this as a

cultivation of what do you need?

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And then we can decide, but

you're going to go through six

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sessions with me to do that.

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And then we'll get into actual

deep work based on that.

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There was some success to that,

but I didn't like it because,

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and again, it's not about me.

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I'm the coach, but I just felt like

that diluted the impact that you

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could have with somebody earlier on.

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It just didn't work right again popular

and I guess if it was only just about

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money for me I would have been like,

hey, i'll just do this all day long.

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It's easy to sell.

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It's less expensive It's not a lot of

deep work and I can be in and out but

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that's not what i'm saying I see you

laughing over there, but you know what

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John: No, I, I, Joel, I was actually

thinking about when, I was actually

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thinking about when I first started as a

coach and I was really doing a sort of 12

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session program with people, and that's

what they were buying as a coach for me.

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That's what I learned.

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That was.

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Like back in the early 2000s, when

I first did my, when I did my very

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first coaching course that was the

system or process that I learned.

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That's what the other coaches

were doing with people and that's

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what I went out and started doing.

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So I knew it was that, but even then I

felt like, It was just this system of

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okay, it's 12 sessions and then what?

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12 sessions, then what?

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Then I have to find new clients again.

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And I was like, okay you know, yeah,

you want, I didn't know then that you

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need to set up systems of referrals.

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You need to do a whole

bunch of other stuff.

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And that some of the people who

really like working with you and get

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results are going to want to stay

working with you for longer than that.

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And then perhaps you are going to

have to figure out what you're going

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to do beyond the 12 sessions that

you might already have planned.

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But I think we often don't think

about what the lifetime, potential

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lifetime value of our clients

is or can be beyond that initial

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package that they're coming in from.

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And if we think about that,

then we probably can at least

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be set up for, okay great.

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Let's work with you for at least

this amount of time and help you

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get somewhere, help you get to a

result, help you get to some outcomes.

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And then at that point,

you make a decision that we

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carry on working together.

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Is there more for us to do?

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That's probably the

best way to go about it.

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And if it's not know, hopefully you

are delivering well enough, at least

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that you say, okay, who else do you

know that should be working with me?

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Angie: well and there's obviously

there's that i'm a really big

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like my business structure You Is,

because I experienced exactly that.

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Well, I did this, I sold it, now what?

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Now what do I do with them?

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So I created perpetuity, right?

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I created that opportunity for there

to be always to be more, right?

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I think we could take almost any topic,

let's say I'm talking about clarity.

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Well, I don't know, I could probably

off the top of my head come up

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with five specific sessions around

that in and of itself, or even

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an entire framework around that.

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So, what I realized was that what was,

what began as a foundational piece

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started to, it was stackable, right?

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Not necessarily cumulative, though.

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Do you know what I mean?

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Like some programs are like you

have to go through this program

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before you go through that program.

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I didn't necessarily want to do that

because some of my programs are higher

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level for that C suite person, right?

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But

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most of them actually are, but I wanted

there to be a very convenient and natural

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opportunity for there to be more, to.

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Get more value.

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So when somebody comes to me and

says I only have enough money for

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this I'm, just not their coach.

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That's the bottom line i'm not that

and not that I don't believe in

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group coaching because obviously You

know what if you let's say you're

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charging 500 a session, right?

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If you're charging 500

or 300 a session with

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somebody And that's what you

want to command per hour.

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That's what you want to make per hour.

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That's fine.

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Well, then you need to find enough

people in a group to make that happen.

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But is there again, when you're

doing the group coaching now,

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what's the new expectation?

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Now, how do you identify

growth spaces for people?

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I think it gets a little bit lost.

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I think group coaching has its

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place, but in my business it's

basically more of a bonus to write a

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particular topic and say, Hey, we're

going to use this as the example.

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Again, we're talking about clarity

and maybe I see that it's like,

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Ooh, this is really a tough spot.

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Let's do a, session plus one, right?

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Let's do another, when we're like coaching

on this piece and have that flexibility.

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To bring people to some

level of enlightenment.

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It's just I don't know anything

surface has never Worked for me.

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It just didn't.

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John: It's interesting, man.

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I think you're more like you'd

like the one to one stuff.

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You like being a one on one coach and

I'm more like, I like the group stuff.

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I'm much more attracted to that and

I still enjoy some one on one stuff,

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but I'm actually much more directed

and somewhat self directed towards

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doing group coaching, delivering

that simply because of time leverage

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and effectiveness, but also.

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I get more energized by

delivering those programs.

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I feel like nice that I step into a

level of performance and coaching when

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doing that, because you have to manage

the energy of the group somewhat.

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And it's all virtual as well,

which which makes life a lot

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easier in some ways as well.

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But it's it's just different

styles and approaches.

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Angie: but here's the thing though I don't

think that I enjoy the one on ones more.

306

I think for me if I'm doing a group

thing It's got to be a workshop.

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I love work shopping and for me

Although there is coaching in that,

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it is, it's just a bigger thing and

maybe we're just using different

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terminology and it is the same thing.

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I love doing workshops, but a workshop

is not, 45 minutes to an hour.

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A workshop that I've created, my

workshops are some of them are a

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day, some of them are a half a day.

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Some of them are two days.

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Some of them are four days.

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Okay, and it depends, again,

what I'm delivering and to

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whom and what the outcome is.

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I have group coaching available that is 28

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sessions long.

319

It's a one year commitment.

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And that's for a higher level, C

suite kind of leadership space.

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So I do like the group aspect.

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I think I just like the bigger groups.

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I think that's maybe just

me as a personal preference.

324

Yeah.

325

Um,

326

John: When I do, when I do more

group coaching stuff, it's either

327

working more generally on things

like what you're working on, where

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you're at what stuff are you stuck

with, what questions do you have?

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So it's a little less formal whereas

the workshops and everything, that's

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going to be far more structured.

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And there's gonna be often course

materials that they're gonna work

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through by themselves as well.

333

That's how I like to do it.

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If you are like in a position where

you're pretty new with your coaching

335

business, come up with a simple

structure of, how many sessions, what's

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the minimum amount of sessions that

you wanna work with someone with?

337

Do you feel that you could work with

a group rather than one, one that

338

might be, allow you to leverage your

time more, might change some of the

339

pricing a little bit, but but might.

340

Allow you some other opportunities and

and think about what you want to be

341

pricing that where you want pricing

it, because realistically, if you're in

342

the sort of bracket of anything below

2, 000 you're in the sort of low end

343

of of any sort of course, a program

along those sorts of lines and high

344

end is really going to be looking like

probably eight to 10, 000 plus, really.

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Angie: Absolutely.

346

And there's an expectation of that.

347

I have to say, if you are somebody

who's targeting a higher level

348

audience, you should understand that

they, there is a belief in that space

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that is you get what you pay for.

350

That's the truth.

351

They're not looking for the

inexpensive necessarily.

352

They're looking for the quality.

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And they're willing to

pay for that quality.

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So it's if you're newer, maybe

that is not yet your space.

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And I use that word yet.

356

Like maybe it's not yet your space,

but I think what you said, John, is

357

the key to it is that you have to

know what you're going to deliver.

358

You have to know that first and

you need to stick to that and that

359

doesn't mean that you don't shift

and change based on response.

360

So if everybody that you're

targeting comes back and says,

361

Whoa, that's just way too expensive.

362

One of two things, either it is, or

you're just not focusing on the right,

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John: Yeah.

364

Angie: right.

365

That's the truth.

366

If you're getting tons of yeses, Probably

found the right group and maybe you

367

need to raise your prices the next

time a little bit and say that was too

368

easy almost they all said yes and do

some research not for anything like

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let's not just start pricing things out

willy nilly I do some research what are

370

people that coach in the way that you

coach literally what are they charging

371

for their programs do some spade work

figure that out so you could see what

372

at least the market in that space would

bear You don't just make up numbers.

373

Yes.

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John: a often refer to our sing episode.

375

And for those who haven't, go

back and listen to it, it's it's

376

gonna be a high value for you.

377

It is important to know who you're

targeting your services to the amount

378

of people I've worked with over the

years who want to help a particular

379

group of people who have no target.

380

F in money to be able to pay for the

services that you want to offer them.

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Well, that's all nice,

but that's not a business.

382

It's a charity and, we've said this on

the show before, but this is a business.

383

Serve your business first, then there

may be space for the people that you

384

want to help a bit more pro bono.

385

But, You have to think about this as

a business and it has to operate as a

386

business, which means you need to go and

maybe do a bit of research, do a bit of

387

product checking, make sure that what

your product offers looks good to the

388

market and that the market has the need

and the means to pay for your services.

389

Otherwise, otherwise you're going

to find that it's going to be

390

very frustrating in the long run.

391

And that's not what

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Angie: Listen, you

393

know what?

394

This is so funny.

395

I don't know why this popped

into my head of all things.

396

Cause you know, I'm very visual

and I make up little stories in

397

my head as I talk about things.

398

But like, imagine doing something

that is appear, appears to

399

be elective, like a surgery.

400

You're going to a surgeon and

you want to have some type of

401

augmentation done to yourself, right?

402

Whether it's your face, your eyes,

something to your appearance.

403

And.

404

You're going to you want the best, right?

405

This is pretty important.

406

I want somebody who knows what they're

doing and has a good reputation.

407

And this is their, but this is what

they focus on all day, every day.

408

And they walk in and you go,

okay, so how much is this?

409

And they say it's 20, it's 15, 000.

410

You cannot say to them, but I

only want to pay a thousand.

411

You can say it, but they're going

to be like I am not the surgeon

412

for you because this is based on my

experience or based on X, Y, and Z.

413

This is what I get paid.

414

They're not going to go, oh, okay, Mr.

415

John, okay, we'll let you pay a

416

thousand dollars.

417

That makes sense.

418

Oh no, there's a value being

delivered and unfortunately I think

419

when people don't understand the

potential value of their outcomes.

420

Okay in coaching, it's very

hard for them to say Okay, i'm

421

gonna make this commitment.

422

They'll find money, you

know for ancillaries.

423

I want the 300 lipstick Really,

but you won't pay 300 for something

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that's gonna really better your life.

425

That's really my mentality around it

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But

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John: Yeah.

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There has to be, there

has to be pain around it.

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And you have to know

that you can help them.

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No, no pain, no sail.

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That, that.

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That's life and yeah, as harsh

as it may be, that is a reality.

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Yes I don't think I would want to spend

a thousand bucks on plastic surgery.

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I I think the results might be

worse than what you already see.

435

Yeah, I would find the 15, 000.

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I don't know what I

want done first though.

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Maybe my boobs.

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I have a, having a think about it

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Angie: Oh my goodness.

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Well, we can have that conversation.

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John: That's a different,

a very different podcast

442

Angie: very different podcast.

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John: Hello, maybe you have thoughts

around packaging your deals, or maybe

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you have some coaching questions.

445

Maybe there are things that you're curious

about, or that you've had some tricky

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situations with clients that you would

like to get some other coaching eyes

447

on, some coaching experts, experienced

coaches to get some feedback on.

448

Leave us a voicemail.

449

You can go to speakpipe.

450

com forward slash the

coaching clinic podcast.

451

That's speakpipe.

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com forward slash the

coaching clinic podcast.

453

You can leave us a voice message

and if we like it, we might

454

just feature it on the show.

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Angie: Well, yeah,

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we'd love to do that.

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So bring it on everybody.

458

Come

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John: we'd love to do that.

460

Leave us a voicemail.

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So we look forward to hearing from you

and we'll be back again with another

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episode of the coaching clinic very soon.

463

See ya.

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Angie: Bye bye.