True leadership isn't defined by unwavering confidence; it’s forged in the courage to step into high-stakes, uncomfortable conversations when the stakes are high and the path is uncertain.

In this episode, we sit down with Tess Fyalka—elite leadership coach and author of the powerhouse book, Walking the Leadership Ledge. Together, we break down her tactical, six-step framework designed to help executive titans master challenging dialogues. The brutal truth? The very conversations you are actively avoiding are the exact gateways to your next level of leadership breakthroughs. Tess delivers masterclass-level insights on ruthless preparation, bulletproof clarity of intent, and how to command an environment built for radical candor. If you are ready to eliminate communication friction, transform your corporate culture, and build unshakeable organizational resilience, this episode is your playbook.

Power Takeaways

• Confidence is Optional, Courage is Mandatory: Exceptional leadership isn't about having all the answers; it’s about the willingness to lead through the fog of uncertainty.
• Discomfort is a Growth Metric: Evading difficult conversations caps your potential. Embracing the friction of challenging dialogue is the only way to scale your leadership.
• Intent is Your Armour: Masterful execution in tough meetings requires meticulous strategic preparation and an absolutely undeniable clarity of purpose before you ever step into the room.
• Weaponize Emotional Intelligence: Titans don't let emotion hijack execution. Understanding and mastering your own psychological responses is what separates elite communicators from the rest.

Links referenced in this episode:

• anglecoaching.com
• walkingtheleadershipledge.com
• amazon.com

Leadership isn't always about confidence.

It's about stepping forward when you're unsure, uncomfortable, and facing difficult conversations.

What if those tough conversations you've been avoiding are actually the key to unlocking your growth as a leader?

Today, of becoming bridge builders.

I am joined by a leadership coach and author, Tess Fialka, to talk about her powerful new book, Walking the Leadership Ledge and the six essential steps every leader needs to needs to confidently and effectively navigate difficult conversations.

If you've ever struggled with what to say or how to say it or when to say it, this conversation is for you.

So, Tess is a founder of Angel Angle Coaching and Communication, where she works with leaders across multiple industries to strengthen core competencies, to help teams move through challenging dynamics and to reach their full potential.

She's the author, as I mentioned before, of Walking Leadership the New Leadership Guide to Building Resilience and Confidence, a book that equips leaders with tools they need to step into uncomfortable spaces, especially when it comes to difficult conversations.

Tess, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you, Keith.

I'm excited to be here, excited to have you on.

I love talking about this topic.

I've worked a lot of times in churches, and so we have to have sometimes some very difficult conversations and we're not always equipped to do that.

And so I'm looking forward to you giving us some insight.

Walk into things that we could probably avoid or maybe minimize the pain of those conversations.

Yeah, I think that might be the more appropriate way to describe it.

Right.

Because we're not going to be able to avoid it completely.

But if we have at least a sense of, okay, how do I, how do I navigate this?

How, how do I, you know, chart this, this course that.

That at least helps us.

Right.

But I'm gonna ask you my favorite question to get us started.

What's the best piece of advice you've ever received?

Yeah, I love that question, Keith.

And I would have to say that it is bring more questions than answers.

And how do you use that as a coach?

Cause I know as a coach myself, I love to not answer people, my clients, questions or solve their problems, but I wanna have them dig into it themselves.

So how do you apply that to how you do your work?

Yes, well, exactly that, you know, but I think it's that, you know, we so crave certainty and, you know, we're just wired for that.

We really want certainty.

We want the black and white answer and we want to lean into our assumptions.

But if we can walk into whatever, whatever the situation is, whether, you know, whether it's A conversation, whether it's a meeting, whether it's a crisis, whatever has come up, a major challenge.

Rather than walking in there with this agenda of this is what we need to do.

Unless of course, the building is on fire, that's a little different.

Okay.

But in most cases, if we can walk in there and ask more questions to.

It's seeking first to understand is really all this is.

And because in that place then we as leaders, managers, you know, whatever our capacity is.

And I am of the opinion that regardless of where you sit in an organization or really in any, any area of your own life, you are always in a leadership position because that is in your actions and your interactions.

It's not, you know, in, in just in a corporate world or, or in, in a church environment, hierarchical environment, but it is in those actions and interactions that you engage in every single day.

And so that, that seeking first to understand, bringing more questions than answers helps you as a leader in whatever capacity to be more effective in how are you going to respond to the challenge that's sitting in front of you?

I love it.

In your book, Walking the Leadership Ledge is a powerful title.

I love that title.

By the way, what inspired you to write this book?

And what does a ledge represent for leaders?

Yeah, yeah.

So couple of things here in terms of.

I have always wanted to write a book and most authors will say I just had to, I had to write a book and you know, for, for many, many years I wasn't sure, you know, what that book was going to be.

And I was, I was crafting different books in my mind in the middle of the night and so on and so forth.

But it was really in my, in my work.

I spent 13 years working for a management consulting company and then I went to work in an organization and, and became a leadership development coach and a corporate trainer.

And I just, I see the same issues and challenges over and over and over again.

And leadership isn't easy.

If it were, there wouldn't be 50,000 plus books written about it.

You know, 50,001, including mine.

Right.

So, but the, but wanting to give leaders basically a handbook, if you will, where it's, it's, what's the challenge that I'm facing today?

You know, I have to have an, I have to navigate a difficult conversation or I'm bringing somebody in into my department or my team.

I want to be intentional about setting them up for success because their success is my success.

And it's just the same issues kept repeating over and over again.

And there's the other side of this, like I said, it's not that leadership is easy, but I also think that we make it so much harder than it needs to be.

And I think if we can just kind of neutralize things somewhat, maybe maybe dispel some of the drama around it, and maybe those things that we see as being so challenging or actually can be much more straightforward.

And I don't pretend that it's easy, but I do think that we have a tendency to make things much more difficult than they need to be, myself included.

I love this idea, talking about having difficult conversations.

And I've been in many situations where the conversations get really tense.

As you are talking about that chapter of difficult conversation, what makes those conversations so critical, especially for leaders?

Because oftentimes we don't want to have those conversations like we talked about a little bit.

But why is it critical for leaders to be able to navigate and deal with those difficult conversations?

Yeah, well, if we think about it, Keith, you know, work gets done through conversation, right?

I mean, how do our team members.

It's not just the difficult conversation.

And the thing is, as I'm sure you've discovered, as I've discovered, is that everyone has a different sort of range for what they classify as a difficult conversation.

You know, I can work with one leader who is so frustrated because his team members aren't delivering the kind of customer service that he wants delivered in his small business.

And when we dig a little further, then what we discover is that he hasn't articulated what good looks like, what good customer service looks like.

He hasn't articulated what.

That he hasn't set those expectations.

And so.

And for him, that is a difficult conversation.

And if we think about that through a different lens, that's.

If you think about, okay, I'm going to go to the restaurant and I'm going to order a steak, but I'm afraid to tell the waiter how I want my steak prepared because I'm afraid they might be offended.

I mean, your team members can't do their job.

It's sort of like the waiter can't do his or her job.

The chef can't do his or her job because.

Because they don't know what you want.

And so.

So anyway, so this.

This idea of the difficult conversation, everybody has sort of, sort of a different threshold for what they determine is a difficult conversation.

And I think, first of all, there's also the.

There.

There's the emotional attachment and.

And the emotions.

You know, we're.

We're all driven by our emotions.

You Know, and anybody who says, oh, I'm not emotional, well, well, that's just a lie.

I mean, it's a lie.

Or they're, they're profoundly, you know, they don't have a lot of self awareness.

Right.

Because, because that's how we're wired.

We're, we're emotional creatures who think, you know, we're not thinking creatures with emotions.

We're emotional creatures who think.

And so the, the, and I apologize, I'm if I'm spinning all over the place, just reel me in.

But the, the work gets done through conversation and recognizing what is sort of like your emotional threshold, if you will, what are the things that cause you to spin out and that inhibit your ability to have that conversation.

Now I'm going to pause and let you redirect me because I know I kind of went in different directions there.

No, it's good.

I was going to ask you as I was thinking about how you responded to that.

Part of what makes those difficult conversations difficult, I think for leaders is maybe a lack of confidence.

So as you're thinking about that, how do these difficult conversations impact leaders who may be dealing with the confidence issue, to either build them up by the way they handle it or break them based on how they respond in these conversations.

So number one is there is the detachment, if you will, in terms of, and that's the, that's when we start with recognizing what are the emotions that come up for me when I am thinking about having a conversation, because then what's happening is I am being, I like to think, think about it in terms of, it's like a rope is being wrapped around my body.

And so I am constricted by those emotions.

And oftentimes those emotions are negative and I am making assumptions and I'm envisioning that the conversation isn't going to go well.

And so what's happening there is that it's all about me.

Right?

And so, but if I am, if I can first of all acknowledge, you know, what are the emotions that are here?

I name the emotions and then I start thinking about, okay, what do I really want?

What's my motive here?

What do I want on the other side of this conversation?

What I probably want is this for I'll say, team member, to be more effective in what they're doing, because if they're more effective, our department is more effective and our organization is more effective.

And so if I shift it so that it's not just about me and what's uncomfortable for me, but what do we need together to accomplish and I can start connecting to the bigger purpose, the bigger mission, the vision and the values of why are we here in this organization?

What is our bigger purpose in this organization?

What are we here to achieve?

And what do I want from this team member on the other side of this conversation?

So what's my motive?

Right?

And if my motive is to control or to shame or to degrade or to be, you know, to set that person straight, whatever it is, if, if my motives are, I will say if they are negative, the other person is going to sense that instantly.

All right?

But if my motives are genuinely, I seek truly to help this person to succeed, and I am here on the, on the same side of the table with them so that we can together look at this challenge together.

And how do we move forward and address this challenge where it's not about you, Keith, or me, Tess, it's about.

Here's the challenge that we're facing.

How can we together move forward on this?

And so that.

Checking the emotions, noticing what's driving you, what are the motivations, and then getting very specific about what is the behavior or challenge specifically that you need to address?

All right.

And we really want to narrow that down because these, the difficult conversations are like big balls of yarn because we oftentimes don't have them.

And so we put them off and, and it's just like these big knotted balls of yarn.

So there.

So it's like all these strands everywhere, and then by the time you have them, well, it's, it's just a mess.

But if we can get laser focused on what specifically do we need to address in this conversation?

And, you know, I use an easy example of, of Ian, who's a new team member, and he is, he's talking over people in, in, in meetings, and he's.

Others are shutting down and they're not contributing.

And so I, I recognize that it's, it's.

It's a negative impact on the team and I have to have that conversation.

And so, but if my, if I'm reacting from a place of, well, Ian's just an arrogant jerk, well, that's not going to move the conversation forward.

But if I, you know, it's just, we, that's why we have to get real clear on what are our own motives, what do I want from this conversation?

And also, and when we are articulating what we're observing, what we, we want to, we want to report that, if you will, or talk about that as if we're talking about the weather.

It's 75 degrees and the sun is shining.

Winds are five miles an hour from the.

From the north.

That's different from.

It's a spectacularly beautiful day.

And wow, it's gorgeous out there.

Right.

So that being real clear about when you are speaking to someone particularly about their behavior, what have you seen?

What have you observed?

Does that make sense?

It does.

Okay, I want to dig into your six core steps, because I think that's important.

I love the fact that when you're about to have a difficult conversation, you start with preparation.

And for the leader.

You walk into a difficult conversation and you're trying to think about.

Like, you just kind of mentioned your mental state, your emotional state, and how practical this is.

So what are some key things you would tell leaders how to prepare themselves?

Are you about to walk into a difficult conversation?

Say you just talked about Ian.

Ian, you're going to have to have a difficult talk with.

He's underperforming.

He's not meeting standards.

His work is causing the entire organization to suffer.

As a leader, how do you prepare for this conversation with Ian beforehand?

Yeah.

And again, number one, you notice your emotions.

Okay.

Because the emotions are always driving the bus.

And so you want to neutralize those emotions.

What is your motive in this conversation?

What do you truly want for Ian and the organization?

I want Ian to succeed so that he can be a fully contributing member of the organization.

And who is the leader that you would want to work for?

All right.

And I talk about a little exercise, creating an I am statement.

And that's really.

That's identifying what are the qualities, values, and characteristics that you bring to the organization that you bring as a person, and making a list of those.

And then also, what does the organization need from you in this position?

They need you to be a strategic thinker, maybe a bridge builder, a collaborator, a detailed ninja, whatever it is.

But what does the organization need from you?

And from those two lists, you create what I refer to as your I am statement.

So, for example, I am a respectful and compassionate strategic thinker who gets things done.

And so that helps you to reset in those moments.

Because Ian, for example, I may go into the conversation, I have checked my emotions.

I know what my.

My motive is, and my motive is genuine to help Ian.

And I have my I am statement firmly rooted in my head so that Ian, because Ian's a human being, because we're all human beings, and I may approach it exactly right.

And I say exactly right in quotes.

Right?

Air quotes.

And from a.

From a very calm and measured stance.

But Ian, because he's a human being, may still react emotionally.

And so if we go back to the.

Ian is talking over people in meetings and I'm having a conversation with Ian about, you know, Ian, I've noticed in the last three staff meetings that you have talked over team members and even I myself, you know, felt like I was being shut down.

Ian may still react well, that I'm just trying to contribute, you know, and he may still react emotionally.

And so it's really important as part of the preparation to pay attention to what is your strategy.

And your strategy can be the I am statement that helps you reset when the other person is going to be the other person.

But you don't have to get sucked into their emotional vortex.

They may react emotionally because they're human beings.

You're choosing to maintain neutrality and you're recognizing that you don't have to get pulled into that.

And so in your mind, you're reminding yourself of your I am statement so that you can, in that moment, stay calm.

And also going back to.

You have articulated your intent to Ian.

Ian, I'm so pleased to have you as part of the team.

I know you have so much to bring, and I am here in this conversation with you because I want to help you, to set you up for success.

And so.

But you have articulated what your intent is in that conversation, and it comes from a place of genuine intent.

So now let me pause and give you a chance to ask me any questions, Redirect me.

That's good.

I like that.

So we got preparation, we got clarifying our intent.

You're setting up what you hope to come out of this meeting.

Talk to me about the right environment.

Because I know I've had meetings and I thought, you know, maybe I shouldn't have done it here or I should have done it at this time.

I'll give you my example of my worst meeting.

I had to have a difficult conversation, had to let a teacher go, and I did it early in the morning on a Friday.

And we had the entire rest of the day left and it turned badly.

She walked out of the classroom.

She took the students with her.

I had a big fit and I'm thinking to myself, this should have been done at the end of the day when no one else was around.

Why did I do it at 8 o' clock on a Friday morning?

So tell us a little bit about making sure you create the right environment, the tone, the setting for making this meeting go as.

As nice as possible or productive as possible.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Productive is probably the appropriate word.

And, you know, and I would be curious, Keith, and we don't have to get into this, but.

But I, I'm sort of wondering.

The coach in me is kind of wondering if.

If it was a situation where for you, it was like, I'm just pulling off this band aid and I'm.

It was.

Yeah, yeah, right, right.

Exactly.

And so for, for you, it was trying to, you know, get your own emotional relief.

And, and so that, you know, that.

That then, you know, it's kind of like, think, okay, okay.

What do I really want for the organization on the other side of this?

I want.

You want her to get through the day, but that hindsight's 20 20, right.

For all of us.

And so, But I think it really lends itself to the.

In a situation like that, you know, really, really thinking it through and mapping out the strategy around it.

And probably if you were in a different perhaps mindset, you would have maybe paused and thought through how might she react?

And there is that putting yourself, you know, sitting in another chair and actually physically.

And I, I have my clients do this, you know, sit physically in another chair, you know, not behind your desk, and, you know, consider yourself.

You're hearing this news and how might, how might you react if you're this person?

That, that's one thing.

But, but the, but the environment, you know, there's so many variables there.

And, and.

And it really does depend on the conversation.

You know, that's, that.

That can be particularly volatile when you're letting someone go.

But, but you're, you know, your, your, Your regular conversation, you know, I'll go back to, you know, simply setting some expectations around, around, you know, what, what good customer service looks like.

That's a conversation.

Let, let's walk through a client experience together.

And, and you're.

You, you know, I'm the client and, or you're the client, and when you walk in, what do you want to experience?

And so, so that's, that's something where you're giving them.

Helping them see the client experience through.

Through the client's lens rather than, rather than giving them a checklist of, you need to greet them at the door, you need to say hello, you need to say, how are you?

That kind of thing.

In, in other situations, it may be a matter of.

Of you're.

You're sitting, you know, you're.

You're sitting down over coffee over something and, and you're having.

And I think the important thing that gets lost in these is it's a conversation.

And so if it's truly a conversation, you're not doing all the talking.

And it goes back to what we opened with in terms of bringing more questions than answers.

And you're seeking to understand what's going on here.

Because what I'm.

Before we get to the point where we have to let someone go, there are so many other conversations that can be happening before we get to that point point.

And most of what the leaders that I work with that they're dealing with are those day to day conversations around expectations or not handling a client in a way that they think the client should be or not following through on a procedure that is established or a process.

And those really are pretty straightforward.

But yet we tie so much emotion to them.

And the thing is we go to this point, this either or place of I am either a nice person or I'm a jerk.

And there's, you know, there's a whole bandwidth in between of wait a minute.

No, no, no.

It's not an either or.

It's a what does this situation need from you in this moment so that you are helping this person to be the most effective team member that they can be.

And it's not about you, it's about helping them to be the most effective team member.

Because ultimately it goes back to what I said before.

I mean your bigger why, why are we here as part of this organization to have an impact on our community or to deliver an amazing product for, for the, for the client.

And if we can get a bit more focus on what are we here to achieve, it helps us move away from the.

It's all about me.

Of the six steps you have on this list, what do you find?

Which one do you find leaders struggle with the most in having difficult conversations?

Well, in general, I would say the biggest barrier is that so many leaders don't have the conversation.

So by the time that they do have the conversation, it doesn't go well.

But I think probably being able to reset the conversation if and when the other person reacts emotionally because that, that, and just, just that acknowledgement of they're human beings and they might react, they might get upset and that's okay.

It doesn't, it doesn't, you know, but you can reset it, you know, and again, it goes back to the restating my, my motive and you know, my intent of this conversation.

You know, what I, what I really want to see here, you know, Keith, I want to see you thrive as a member of, of the team.

And the, the other thing too, that I would say is that again, you know, leaders, managers, regardless, you know, in whatever position, they feel like they've got to have all the answers and, and they, they feel like, oh, I've got to tell them what to do, you know, and yes, you have to set expectations.

But, but in a conversation like this, in a challenging conversation, you can invite them.

Okay, you know, how might, how might you, how might you, how might you navigate, you know, the next team member, next team meeting?

How might you engage others around the room and where you're not telling them, you know, like, I'll go back to Ian, Ian, you need to shut up for a while.

You know, you need to talk less.

You need to talk less and, you know, let other people speak.

Can you just.

And that's, that's when it, when leaders start reacting in that way, it's because they have stuffed it, stuffed it, stuffed it.

And so by the time they have the conversation, they're much more likely to be emotionally hijacked.

And that's why if we can have these, recognizing that work gets done through conversation and when we are not having those conversations, we're setting our team members up, up to fail and we're setting ourselves up for, for disappointment and, and our organization up for disappointment.

But if, if we think of it as not just a challenging conversation, but we are trying to create a culture of ongoing dialogue.

And you know, in the book I also talk about, okay, just make, make these, make regular check ins.

You want to, you know, if it's a, if it's a, you know, five minute daily huddle, if it's a weekly check in, if it's, if it's a, if it's a monthly one on one or a quarterly, whatever the cadence is.

But where you as a leader or manager are intentionally creating an environment of dialogue as part of your culture, again, these don't become the big hairy emotional deals.

It's just a matter of this is how we do business and we're here supporting each other.

And as a leader, I'm also asking for your input.

What would help?

How can I be a more effective leader for you?

What are some things that you're not getting from me that would further enable you to succeed?

That I don't see.

As you wrote this book, I know you had a big takeaway.

What was the biggest takeaway you got from this book?

Oh, gosh.

Oh, just one.

Holy smokes.

The biggest takeaway.

Wow's up.

I think, you know, fundamentally, at the end of the day, you know, we, we talk in General terms about, you know, everybody needs, you know, to, you know, have values and lean into your values.

But, but seldom are leaders equipped to figure out how do I, how do I determine what my values actually are if I'm going to lean into them?

And so I think that, you know, and probably, you know, through coaching as well, has been such an eye opener for me in terms of the equipping people and ourselves really reflecting on what do I truly value and how do I go about discovering what I truly value and going back to in these conversations?

What do I value as a human being and as a leader and what, what value do I need to bring to this conversation?

So I would probably have to say, yeah, I'd probably say that values for.

The person listening as a leader who's listening to our conversation, who's overwhelmed by maybe conflict and organization in their church, what would you say to them to encourage them in this moment?

I would say engage in conversation.

And actually the other part of that, Let me edit that.

Let me say, be mindful of your simple stories and your judgments.

Okay.

Notice when.

What story am I telling myself?

How might I be judging the other person?

And how might I be wrong?

And what is another story that I could tell myself about what's happening here?

Because we just have, as human beings, we're so wired to go to the negative story.

And if we can begin to notice those stories and ways in which they don't serve us and start to hold other stories, that might be a different explanation for why someone is behaving in a way that we perceive is negative or harsh or disrespectful or whatever term we might be giving it.

So here's some lightning round questions for you on a tough day.

Coffee or tea?

Coffee.

One word that defines leadership.

Curiosity.

I love that one.

One habit that builds confidence.

Quickly.

Engaging in conversations with your stakeholders.

Best advice you gave a client in one sentence,.

Be mindful of your simple stories.

I love it.

All right.

If you could think about what you want your legacy to be, what would that be?

So I think the most important legacy for me and my husband is that we have raised two caring and wise children.

That's number one.

The second legacy professionally would be that in some small way, in my teeny tiny little dot IN this universe, I have helped leaders to navigate this challenging road, perhaps with a bit more grace.

I love it.

So on the show, we have something new this year.

We have a surprise question.

Pick a number between 1 and 10 for your surprise question.

8.

8.

And that would be what's the worst job you've ever had?

The worst job I've ever had?

Well, it's probably in the backyard at home doing poop patrol for the dogs.

I'm glad you clarified that.

Oh, that's so great.

So if people pick up this book, what do you hope they walk away with as a lesson that would help them in their leadership journey?

I would hope that they would use it as a guide and that it is one in a library of resources they access from so many different sources.

But just to recognize that, okay, most of the chapters in there are going to be challenges that they're going to face at any given time and that it is a place for them to get started to address this particular challenge.

Where can people find your book, connect with you on social media and follow along what you're doing?

So they can find my book on Amazon and it is in print, Kindle and audiobook and my one social network is LinkedIn and you can reach out to me through either of my websites and one is anglecoaching.com and that's a n g l e coaching.com and the other is walkingtheleadershipledge.com well Tess, thank you.

For sharing your wisdom for equipping leaders with practical and needed tools to our listeners.

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And don't forget to check out Tess's book, Walk the Leadership the New Leader's Guide to Building Resilience and Confidence, because the conversations you're avoiding may be the very bridges you need to build.

Until next time, keep building bridges and keep having those conversations.

Thanks again so much, Tess.

Thank you, Keith.