In this episode, we explore the technology culture Aled has successfully led his entire career, specifically, how to create a high-performance team in an environment that demands fast-paced change and constant innovation in order to survive.

Listen for the Welsh Star Wars connection!

Click here for more on Sauce Labs

03:00 Aled’s story

10:07 Authentic leadership

15:14 Creating the high-performance team

22:12 Starting the day

31:51 The Auto industry through the eyes of a tech guy

37:19 Innovation culture

45:01 The vine of trust

54:46 Advise to your 25 yr old self

58:00 Being a Welsh Government envoy & the Star Wars connection

[Transcript]

00:03

Welcome to the Finding Gravitas podcast brought to you by Gravitas Detroit. Looking to become a more authentic leader. Finding Gravitas is the podcast for you. gravitas is the ultimate leadership quality that draws people in. It's an irresistible force encompassing all the traits of authentic leadership. Join your podcast host, Jan Griffiths that passionate rebellious farmer's daughter from Wales, entrepreneur, leadership coach, keynote speaker, one of the top 100 leading women in the automotive industry as she interviews some of the finest leadership minds in the quest for Gravitas.

Hello, Finding Gravitas audience, it's 2021. And we are going to kick off January with an extremely articulate and highly charismatic leader. He is the son of a Baptist minister from a small town. Yes, you guessed it a small town in Wales. He is now the foremost authority on digital confidence. He is the CEO of Sauce Labs based in California. And he is often called upon by leading business media publications such as CNN, BBC Bloomberg, for his perspective on digital confidence. In this episode, we talk about that high tech culture that he has led his entire career. How do you create that high performance team in an environment that demands fast paced innovation? For all of this, and of course, his story. We welcome to the show, Aled miles.

Well, thank you very much for having me. It's a little symmetrical. This, isn't it?

It is indeed, ah, who would have thought that two people from the small town of Bridgend in South Wales would end up in America, we'd never believed that. We would not have believed it. And for the audience, you should know that Alan and I were at school together many, many years ago. And we reconnected recently after 40 years. That's right. 40 years.

But it looks a little bit older than the other one. And that'll be me.

Ah, no, we don't have video. We're not telling. We're not telling it. So here we are. But I am delighted to see the success of my old school pal, Aled Miles. And he is indeed an authentic leader. And he has a story to tell. So Aled Miles, what is your story?

Well, first of all, thank you so much for having me. And it is wonderful to reconnect and your kind words are reflected right back at you here. We both are, in the United States of America, probably now having never, never having believed as possible. I don't know if you remember. But when I was 16, the Rotary Club of Bridgend asked if a few of us would like to go to California, and I shot my hand up so fast that nearly hit the ceiling. And I find myself about six months later in Fremont, California. Fremont is on the edge of the bay, as many people know, in San Francisco, and I had probably the most extraordinary time of my life. And I think, Jan, that I kind of knew them, that there was some path to the United States. And I think it gave me my travel bug. I think it gave me a sense of ambition, and a desire to see what was, you know, beyond the confines of perhaps a small town in a wonderful country, but there was a world out there. So I went to university in London, had a wonderful three years and found myself by some accident on a boat coming back from Dublin, that crossing across the North Sea on a Sealink ferry, and the engines broke down. Or one of them did and literally what was supposed to be, you know, a four hour crossing was a nine hour crossing. And I met two young men who started a technology company in Putney. England, just outside London. And they said to me, what are you doing? And as you well know, I had always wanted to go into the creative arts and become an actor. And that was my dream. And they said, well look when you're not auditioning or doing something, which was most of the time, come and work for us. And I said, Yes, a commission only sales job in tech. And guess what, I made more money that year than I had made in the previous three, and suddenly found myself in technology. So that's how it began, Jan.

And how old were you then?

21, 22 that sort of age, maybe 23. And what it made me realize is that I didn't like the lack of control. In the creative arts, or the or the world of acting, it was just not me. And here, I could control the amount of money I made, I could almost control my own success. And I was willing to put in the grit and grind. And from there, I discovered that there was this whole industry with different levels, something I know that you discovered in the automotive industry, right? There are people called wait for it, manufacturers. And they are at like the top of the food chain, they make it and somebody else sells it. And what I noticed was the place to be in the software industry. And I won't compare to the automotive industry was if you were in the software industry, you were running on at points of margin. And you had control, and I was fortunate enough to get a job at a company called Symantec. When I was probably 2627, I moved to the Netherlands. And people began to know that company because of the Norton software brand. So if you've ever had a virus on your computer, I hope not you may have used the Norton brand to get rid of it. And at that time, the Internet was growing, email was proliferating. And suddenly, we were the hot stock. That really got me to America on a regular basis. Norton's headquarters were in Santa Monica, Los Angeles. I was traveling Europe, I got not just the taste, but the meal. And there was no looking back from there.

And so that brings us to today, and you're CEO of a company called Sauce Labs, and I'm thinking that's not ketchup.

You know, what's a little embarrassing? Jan is, as a Brit, my ability to say the name of the company I work for is quite hard. So it's SAS labs. Right? Now, when I said it first, my wife was like, I've checked on the internet, no company exists. You're lying to me. And she's I said, What do you mean that of course, there's a company called Sauce Labs. She said, what s o u r c e? I said, No. Sauce. S A, you see, just like you're so British. So it's Sauce Labs, I have to say it in this the best American accent I can muster? Yes, San Francisco based global footprint in the testing space. So if I could be very quick, what we do is Jan, when you fly, I don't know which airline you prefer. But let's say you prefer American Airlines, you go to their app. You have a different phone from me, I'm sure. Right, we have a different version of the iPhone. on it. We have a different operating system on the on our computer, you might use Safari, I might use Google Chrome for the American Airlines app to work across as many as 3000 variations it must be tested. So that you get a digital experience that is full of confidence full of trust that your user experience is flawless, trusted and secure. So we believe that digital confidence can light up the world if it works for everyone. And so what we do on a global basis for the fortune 5000 is test applications and web. Before it gets to you saw that it won't go wrong.

Ah, that's interesting. I didn't fully understand that but now I do. And how long have you been with this company? He is fairly recent, right?

Yeah. 12 months literally hit the one year mark about a week ago.

What is authentic leadership to you? You're the CEO of a company, you've had a tremendous, successful track record in your career. But what does authentic leadership really mean to you?

That's a great question. And it has, I'm sure, in the course of your show so many different answers.

It does.

That the one that comes to my mind is the ability to be vulnerable. The willingness and perhaps this inner strength to be vulnerable. And I think riffing off that I look for and try to be self aware, as a foundation, because I think if you're self aware, as much of the time as possible, you can go through these four stages, that I think, in each stage give you a degree of authenticity that you must strive for. And by the way, striving for authenticity and leadership, I think is critical. So the question is bang on. I'm a great believer in this two by two. And that is it? Are you willing to identify, or have people identify to you moments where you are unconsciously incompetent. Now, incompetence, a little bit too big a word, right? So so let's, let's dial it down, let's make it lowercase, and not in bold. But if you are willing to listen to and accept feedback, that at some moments, in a day, in a week, in a month, you are being unconsciously incompetent, then you can move to become consciously incompetent. And when you hit that moment, it's it can be a harsh realization, and you have to be in a place of vulnerability. But it is only then can you look at what you need to do or be to become conscious, consciously competent. And one strives, I think, for the place that is unconscious competence. So each stage, each journey of that two by two is one of vulnerability. The second thing, Jen that I look for is, and I call it turning up at meetings, to not be right at the beginning of the meeting, but try to be right at the end. And it's coupled with my third point, which is the concept of authentic leaders show up to learn not to win. It's about holding your opinions loosely, not strongly. And then it leads perhaps full circle into this ultimate ingredient of vulnerability, and that is compassion. And recently, I've been very interested in the concept of compassion as a fundamental ingredient of authenticity. And compassion doesn't need to be about docility or weakness or meekness. It is about listening, it is about understanding it is about walking in somebody else's shoes. And I believe that leaders who are compassionate are more agile, they get things done quicker. And they breed compassion in others, because who doesn't want to be in a compassionate relationship? Either at work at home or supplier to customer, particularly in the midst of what we're dealing with right now?

Yes, I agree with you. I think that all traits of authentic leadership are infectious. People in an organization look to their leaders, they model the emulate the behavior that they see. And I think often leaders forget this awesome responsibility that they have. People are looking at them and watching them every single day. And it's not just about the numbers. Of course, the numbers are important. Of course, there's a business to run. But it's much more than that. It's about the how it's about the behaviors. It's about how we connect people and galvanize them to our vision to move the team and the company forward. I really love the way that you articulated the spectrum of your understanding of authentic leadership, I think there's a lot there that our listeners will be able to grab on to. The ultimate goal is to create this high performance work team. What do you think are some of the most important ingredients to that high performance work team?

Emotion. Because from emotion, comes purpose, I don't believe you can create a high performing team if you do not have an emotional connection to what you do and how you do it. You hinted at it just a second ago. For me, it's not just the work we do. It's the way we do the work. Both are important. It is the balance of operational versus adaptive leadership. Yes, Numerix, metrics, accountability, fundamentals, operationally critical, but coupled with adaptability. So let's talk about emotion for a second. At the beginning, when you can, the ask me about Sauce Labs, the company has a soul, Oh, I was so relieved when I joined the company to find that it had a soul. But it also has a brain. And the brain for us is about creating this world of digital confidence. And our heart is to ensure that digital confidence works for everyone, for it to be effective. Because there are things that the digital world is doing, that's changing the world for the good. There's plenty of negativity, I get that. But let's also remember that the digitization of our planet, in many, many ways, is for the good of mankind. The hands are, how do we do it? For us, we create a test platform. That is one that creates a flawless and trusted digital experience. Now running you through our vision, our mission and purpose, you'd say to me, well, marketing, now, it's emotion. It's because our employees, I hope, make a connection to what they're doing. Changing the world having relevance being needed. And therefore we have a soul filled with emotion. And if that isn't, in our company, it's very hard to create a totality of high performance. Because it's not just the work we do, it's the way we do the work. The other components of this is when you've got that base. from a leadership perspective. I'm a huge believer that leaders have to monitor, manage and measure that energy. The danger is it's perceived as potentially being not authentic. Because it's almost a bit too Machiavellian. And I disagree with people who think that way. I'm almost at the belief that the Chief Executive Officer, the CEO is as much as the chief energy officer, as the Chief Executive Officer. Because you've got to understand the energy of the company, and what energy you're putting in, when to be very driven, when to take a step back and be service orientated in your leadership, when a didactic level of leadership is needed to right the ship, what contributions you want from the team to get the interlock and the inter connectivity tissue that makes high performance teams work, cooperation, cogs, working as one. And I think that understanding your energy and the energy of your leaders and the energy of the team is a very difficult thing to perceive particularly now. But it helps create the fundamentals that fuel high performance teams.

Yes, I would agree with you. And I'm a huge supporter of understanding energy and starting your day off with the right mindset and the right energy level. And that doesn't mean that it's always on go 100% But it's understanding what it is and getting your head in the right place before you start your day. And I remember in my last job, I love to work out at Orange theory it's a chain of gyms. And I loved the 5am class, and I would go to the class and then I would go into work. And I would be bouncing down the hallways. And on a Monday, we had an executive staff meeting, and you could just see it, you know, I was just exuding all this positive energy. And it's so infectious people, I think, you know, they don't understand the power that we have as human beings to influence the room, we can, we can change the room, you can go into an engagement meeting, a zoom conference, with your camera on with the right energy level, and you can change the room. And I wish that we would have more opportunity to discuss this fascinating subject of energy, because it is your right, and it's almost as if people say, Oh, I don't want to talk about that stuff. I just want to talk about the numbers. I just want to know, what's the bottom line impact? Well, you know, you have to understand all these elements because they drive behavior and behavior drives results. It's not rocket science, right?

You're obviously right, and it's sequential. So there are four things I look for when I'm interviewing people mindset, behavior, skill, and well. I mean, I can have an incredible set of skills in front of me. But if I have no will, if if I have amazing behavior, but it's not authentic, because the mindset is not right. They inter they interrelate. And it's also a combination of how you manage your physical self, right? You know, how much you sleep, how much you exercise, how much you eat, how much you drink, I mean, they have an impact. And, you know, listen, we're all able to put on a brave face, and then come off the call exhausted, right. But I believe that the better that you manage your overall physical self relates to the well being of your leadership.

I think you're right, let's take a turn into your personal life. How do you start your day?

It's varied, I would love to say I bounced out of bed and hit the gym. And I'm a magnificent physical specimen. But I have to tell you, I am not a gym early person. I am not. I have two kids, one's seven ones, too. So I think you can get a fairly good idea of how I start my day, I find that from a waking up perspective, it's about 630. And four days a week, I fast until about 11. So I try to have the last meal of the evening at about seven latest and then fast through till about 1112 Just allow myself a black coffee. And I find that my energy levels are surprisingly high. And what I try to do is to get a lot of work done from about eight o'clock in the morning onwards got a 630 to eight o'clock time with the kids. Right, that's That's it spending time with my wife. And then at about eight o'clock, getting into work at the latest and then really firing through it till 11 o'clock. And that's when I like to work out right before lunch. Do I achieve it every day I don't, but I do try to stay physically fit. And even if it's just getting outside for a walk as opposed to some hard work in the gym. I just have some weights in the garbage. Right? That just keeps me going. We have a treadmill, it's simple stuff. Or we'll just go walk a hill near to the house and bed by about 10 o'clock. And then lastly, we've been plant based for about eight years. It it's been a very interesting part of my life. I will tell you that when you put me in a sushi restaurant. I'm Flexicon. That is that is being vegan in a fish restaurant. I absolutely love sushi. So I'm not we're not overtly rigid, but about 90 to 95% of my diet is plant based. And it has been transformational in my energy.

Any other habits that you've picked up along the way that have served you well?

Fix a problem straightaway, don't let it fester. There's a tendency I think in all of us if we're not careful to not deal with things when we need to. I put the hardest things in my day, either first or make sure they are diarized that I'm gonna deal with them. So I know that there's a meeting coming up at three o'clock. I've time to prep for it. It's a difficult meeting. I'd rather get it done in 24 hours and let it fester. I find that die arising time. Make sense. So I literally put things in the diary that I need to do. And if they're not diarized, they get missed. And so the discipline of even if it's 10 minutes, that's a diary time. Thirdly, there has to be a cut off. And the habit that I've got into is trying very hard to not work in the evenings, particularly when the kids are available to me and me to them. I'm pretty sure that if I work my time in my day, right, I should be able to get everything done that I need to do, therefore giving me a boundary between work and home life, because I think the phrase, you know, working life balance is, is gone. It's just balanced. And I've noticed that balance creates back to the health benefits back to the physical benefits that are back to the mental benefits that go back to the authenticity benefits that go back to high performance benefits. I'm not surprised that you're asking these questions. You've thought about this a lot. I know. It's all linked. It's all linked.

Yes. And I think what you just what you just said, about dealing with the hard things right away and not putting them off, that goes right to the heart of how we talk to ourselves in our head. And often, I think we don't realize that there is this voice, there's this constant narrative that's running around in our head. And it honestly took me a long time to understand and figure out that I could control that. You can't just let it run, you have to control it. And how you choose to live your life will determine the quality of your life will determine your leadership of yourself of people, it will determine your success, and so on and so forth. But it is you know, getting up in the morning, the first thing that you do, and then making that commitment to yourself, as you just stated, hey, I'm going to I'm going to whatever comes across my path today, I'm going to take it head on. If I don't, I'm going to I'm going to put a place for it, there will be a placeholder for it, and it will be actionable. And I will do it. And so often we try to talk ourselves out of things. And I've done it I mean, I'm human I do too. One of the best pieces of advice that I ever heard about mindset was how you start your day, don't check your email, don't check your phone, when you get out of bed, make a commitment to do something and it can be something small, it doesn't have to be go to orange theory, which now by the way, is 4:45 and five. It doesn't have to be that but it can be the military, make your bed, you know that's do something to start to program your mind into the sense of accomplishment starts with something small. And then eventually it becomes that who you are. And before you know it, you're accomplishing all of your goals. So I think it's it sounds so simple, but it's very important because it's at the core of human behavior.

While you're talking there are two words that came to mind. And that is parallelism and sequential ism. And they are components I think of, of leadership at a senior level, where people get caught in the tyranny of all are either or there are some things as you've just described, start with a little thing that are sequential. And sequential ism in leadership is important. You can't do something at stage four, if you haven't started at stage one, because the dominoes have to fall in the right order. Often in terms of communication, you have to get communication in the right order. But there are also aspects of leadership which have to have parallelism that happening at the same time. Because really what we've not said I mean, what the role of the CEO, as a leader is truly around creating an environment for high performance when we could discuss what that environment is and we have a little already to ensuring that risk is mitigated. Three creating a sustainable growing business sustainable as important as growing and fourth, creating value for shareholders. Now, there's one thing missing and that is customers. But I believe that if you create the right environment, happy people do happy work. customer focus is a given. That creates a growing and sustainable business that creates a shareholder experience without risk. And the concept of the little things, the habits that you form, starting your day can be split into the things that are needed to be done and constantly the parallelisms and the things that need to be done sequentially. And the one little tweak I make is what's parallel? What's sequential?

Yeah, it's a, it's a great thought process. You mentioned the environment for high performance team, you're in the software business, I would imagine that creating an environment where innovation can flourish is very important because it's fast paced. So there are changes coming through constantly. One of the things that the automotive industry is struggling with is that as we move into the world of the Eevee, it's basically California high tech culture, in a vehicle. So help us understand a little bit about how you create a high performance team in this environment. That is extremely fast pace. There are lots and lots of changes, you know, product life cycles are very, very short. And you have to be able to bring ideas to the table, and people have to feel safe in order to do that. How do you do that? How do you create that environment?

Look, I can't profess to give any advice to an industry that I'm not from. Okay. But I think we both recognize that every industry is a digital industry today. And the digitization of everything, the digital mesh, that is around us. I would say I gotta believe that every automobile manufacturer, but maybe not everybody in the supply chain, maybe not everybody that supports needs to think first digital. The car is becoming better device. And that we do so much more in the car than we were able to do. And the car does so much more for us than we were able to do. Harvard did a business study in the last economic downturn in 2007 2008. And what they discovered is that companies that double down on r&d, that focused and invested in innovation that tried to read the market, and read the needs and perhaps even be prophetic are the ones that have grown and sustained to a greater extent than anybody else. In the last 10 to 15 years. I think one of the lessons is from the semiconductor industry, where the doubling and tripling and quadrupling of computing power was happening at a rate so fast that Intel totally changed their go to market approach from design, to final sale to the customer. To stay at pace with competitors. I have a favorite expression at work, which is I don't want to be T boned. And the thing that worries worries me the most as a small player in a big digital world is one of the big players out there can decide to get into test tomorrow. And I get T boned. And so I have got to be constantly innovating and having teams that are dedicated to the future. I've got to be thinking organically and inorganically in my growth strategy in order to protect myself drive risk to the far edges of my world and deliver things to customers that they don't know that they need. But when they get them, I become stickier and stickier and the user experience becomes so important. Let me give you an example of something that I like you. I believe what we used to like was to compare experiences in the same industry. Right? So you get into a Ford or you get into a BMW or you get into a Honda you name it, and you would compare the cars. Well, the world's changed. Now my day digital experiences come from outside of the industry that I'm sitting in. Here's the example. Why don't we love Uber? Because it's a frictionless exit. Of course, it's amazing to get a car in 10 minutes. But you know, you could call an old yellow taxi and the taxi could be there in 10 minutes. It's frictionless exit. So now I sit in a restaurant. And they take 20 to 30 minutes to get me the bill. I am remembering my experience in the Uber car and wanting that experience at the restaurant. And so today, what's happening is that we have multiplicity of brand experiences from all industries that we want to apply to the one we're in right now. I won't tell you what car I have, right, but it's not cheap. And the digital experience in this vehicle is out of kilter with the price I pay. So we bought a family car for the kids, it was a third of the price stacked full of digital technology. I will not buy another car at the amount that I pay. Again, I'm done. Because the digital experience now doesn't give me everything I want beyond the vehicle. Does that make sense?

Yeah, we put more value on that digital experience now than we do with this sort of idea of aspiring to brand ownership, right?

Well, I think what you're saying as well is we put more decision criteria on the digital experience of the vehicle, then how it drives, yes. A flawless digital confident experience, in a car, on a phone, in a computer, on a plane. It's the digitization of everything.

Tell me about I'm going to probe a little bit more if I may into the innovation culture. So how do you and I recognize that you've been in this the software business, you know, for most of your career, but for people outside of that business, it's hard to move away from command and control. And there is a lot of fear out there where people maybe have a good idea, but they're afraid to come forward with that idea. Because they get their head chopped off. So how do you how do you stop that from happening? How do you encourage these teams to, to keep moving forward and keep bringing these ideas to the table? How do you get rid of that sort of fear?

Culture? It's the heart of the answer. It's culture. It's the culture you define. I've always believed that if you don't create a culture, one will fall. Yes, that's so true. And that doesn't mean that's the one you want. Right. And so you have to be prescriptive. I think the word I liked the most is intentional about the culture that you create. In a sense, I could stop there. I mean, that's the answer, right? To fill it out a little bit more. It's the environment, it's the way people lead. And it's, of course, the way in which you react to an idea. And it happens in tiny little moments that accumulate over time. And culture suddenly defined. No idea is a bad idea. Thank you for the idea. Let's throw it up on the wall. I think compassion ties back to it. And this concept of coming to a meeting to learn not to when innovation gets stifled when people say this is my idea. It's the right idea. I want to put it in and they don't, they're not open to Well, let me hear that more about your perspective. They don't allow the other person almost to be right and experiment sufficiently. So let's let's try your idea. If it doesn't work, I promise you that you that you won't have a reaction from me that is aggressive or frustrated. I always say make sure that the other person can see you get rid of your smugness. So there's incremental things that you can lose if you're not careful, unless you're intentional about that. Now, there are also systems I go back to this operational versus adaptive leadership. I mean adaptivity is important. But if you don't have the operational process, the systems in place to create allow innovation to happen if you don't set aside a parallelism that says, I'm going to spend money on innovation for two years out, I'm going to invest appropriately for innovation, I'm not going to just talk about it, we're going to do it. We're going to create an environment where customers can give us their input, where the customer is at the center of our thought process. Customer is not always right. I shock surprise. Sometimes the customer doesn't know when he or she is wrong. And that's what we're going to go figure out. So there are pathways and intentionality, operationally, and adaptive that needs to be created in simultaneous moments. There's one last thing. And you and I will laugh at this. Because when we go back to our childhood, some 10 or 15 years ago, deliberate cough, we were in a play together, right?

Oh, you're not gonna bring that up.

I have to do it. Oh, no. And the reality of that experience, as you and I know, is that leadership is often about improvisation. It's about creativity on the spot. And I get asked this question, and I'm very cautious of my answer. But you know, people say what type of leader are you? And the answer, I think, should be the leader that is needed at any one moment. Back to energy back to vulnerability back to authenticity, that concept of at this moment, this person needs to meet and not be what's in my head, to walk in that person's shoes to breathe lower my energy. Or that person needs me to fire them up, motivate them. But improvisations is the essence of innovation.

Yes, you're absolutely right. And something else that came to mind as you were talking, leaders obviously have to model the behavior and they have to create that safe environment. Often, it's not the words that are spoken, it's in the body language. And it's what happens between two conversations, because some that somebody can come up with an idea and the leader can go, Aha, that's a great idea. But then their body language, maybe they roll their eyes. So they say, you know, like, oh, I can't believe that's so stupid. And it's nothing that was actually said, but the body language and the tone of voice said it all. I think leaders have to be so self aware. And they have to know. And when you truly authentic, it's going to it's going to come out it's going to come out in your body language, actually, whether you're authentic or not, it's coming out in your body language, and people can read it, you're actually not fooling anybody. So that's something again, I don't think we talk about often enough. It's it's not just the spoken word. It is the body language, it is the tone of voice. It's all part of the communication process.

I'll add to that. It's also repetition. And again, that sounds unauthentic Let me change the word Jan. It's consistency. That's the right word. It's not repetition. It's consistency. I knew when I said that word, it was wrong. It's consistency because look, you know, I you know, my my, my parents are both great orators. My dad's a Welsh Baptist minister, right, still going strong and Bridgend, South Wales. And so I was brought up an orator, right. I saw it every Sunday. And then at school, we both loved public speaking and debating. And so I'm comfortable in that environment. Right? That comfort can come across as inauthentic. And, and it's not that you can pretend to go wrong or fluff up just to make yourself less authentic. But over time, to your point, people will see it's not you faking it, it's actually who you are. Now, there's a bunch of other stuff that I'm not good at a bunch. Never asked me to do math in public. Right? I'm very cautious because I'm just not that's just not as good on it as that I'm self aware. And that consistency will find you out for good or for bad. Let's talk about trust.

Trust gets a lot of air time these days. And it's one of my favorite words, because it's, it's a feeling. Trust is a feeling. You ask people to define trust, and they can't. Or they can, but it's different for everybody. So talk to me about trust, what does trust mean to you? And how do you promote a nurture trust within your team?

I think Trust is everything. The ability to allow an individual to fail, and yet be there when they're I'm overdramatizing crumbled and on the ground, but an old leader of mine guy called Steve Bennett, he was the chairman at Symantec. And he'd been the CEO of Intuit, you know, the tax people used to let people fail. He told this great story, that three days before tax day, when everybody was filing their returns, there was a broken system at Intuit. And he let it go all the way to failure, rang up the Treasury Department and negotiated a three day extension for every Intuit customer. And we were like, wow, that's mind blowing. Like why wouldn't you step in at least like a day before and not cause that? And his answer was, when you don't let people fail, what you're saying is, I don't trust you. I don't trust you to fail.

Wow, that's a powerful example.

I mean, it's still debatable as an example, right? there'd be plenty of pundits that would say, wrong decisions step in at the very last moment. Why put people through pain, when it's not their fault that your systems and we had this debate, and let's just think about it purely as illustrative is the point is, if you're going to fail, and I don't step in, it's because I trust you to fail. And to link it back to something we've talked about this concept of innovation. If you step in too quickly, you will stifle innovation, because you'll stifle failure. And there's a bunch of things like we're in the test business, we test things to make them fail, so that they will perform. And so you've got to allow things to fail, so that they can arise from the ashes Phoenix, like for success. And that's people as well as things.

I think that a lot of leaders out there, though, they think that they're supposed to be right, most of the time. And they're supposed to stop that failure from happening. And they're afraid that their people will see them as weak. If they don't do that. It's it's going to take an awful lot to get leaders to see that just like you say, you know, you've got to allow your people to fail, and you have to be there to support them, and pick them up when they fail, and make sure that they feel safe. particularly young leaders feel that they you know, they don't want to look weak, how do you coach and mentor young leaders within your organization to help them through that growth, because it is its growth, its maturity as a leader.

You know, what I think is missing. We forget to make a human connection first. And therefore, we don't allow trust to creep, like a vine.

And the vine example, without overdoing the analogy, is that VI is strong. The more of it, the stronger it is. There was a conflict going on in our organization between two leaders on our extended leadership team. And I started to dig into it. And what I realized is they didn't understand each other as people. One of them was very directive, one of them's very amiable, doesn't mean that either one of them are wrong for their base human personality trait, but they haven't worked out how to understand each other in that opposition. It's a bit like I'm clearly very extrovert. My opposite tendency is analysis. And so when you start understanding the people around you and making a human connection first, taking the time to find out, especially in the midst of a pandemic, who are you? How are you? What are you dealing with, and without being over personal, has life that for 10 minutes, take some time to build trust to a human moment? People talk about the pandemic, yes, it's great. We, you know, we start our zoom calls on time, you know, people aren't fussing around making a cup of coffee open in their laptops, et cetera, et cetera. But we are forgetting to take 10 to 15 minutes, even on large calls, and say, How's everyone doing? If you don't make the human connection, how do you build the vine of trust? How does the vine of trust grow and strengthen? You? Know, I'm sure there's a ton of other things. But that's the one thing I think at the foundation. It's easy to miss.

Yes. And in this virtual world that we're in right now, we don't have those little pre meeting conversations or post meeting conversations. None of that is is happening, you have to make an effort to make that happen. As you say, whether it's it's dedicated five or 10 minutes before the start of the meeting, or setting up more one on one calls that are specifically just dedicated and devoted to how you doing, how's the family? What's going on? Making that human connection? Alad? What, what else have you learned from the pandemic, I've had several business leaders tell me that they've learned to make decisions and make things happen in five steps instead of 15. What comes to mind as a maybe a success story within your business that perhaps surprised you?

The first thing that I think has mattered the most in the pandemic, is real listening. I wish I could give you something that's more you know, I don't know business like, but I refute that it's not business like. Because listening is harder in a pandemic. Think about it, as hidden versus stated needs. How do you make high touch points in a low or no touch world, I don't have the ability to shake someone's hand or touch them on the arm, or even show them warmth in some shape or form that's appropriate. I have to do it here on a zoom call. And so you have to listen in more. The opposite side of that coin, I can give advice on Hey, cash is king. This is a moment where you need to preserve cash or build cash. But it depends on the state of your business. We're what's called a scale up, we're not a start up, we're a scale up. And so cash and decisions that preserve our cash and our cash flow and our cash management are critical. So I can give you the balance, right? There's a whole lot of operational stuff that's super important about the way we think and the way we operate. And then there's little things like, don't miss birthdays in your team. Try and find that moment where you see somebody, maybe just not as engaged as before, or a little sadder than before. Observe where mental health may be deteriorating, because it's real. Because people are in different states to your own. They're suffering in different ways. Think about the parent, think about the young 20 to 30 year old who is living with a group of people all crammed into an apartment in San Francisco and wanting socialization to happen. Everybody is different and everybody has a different need. So there's a business responsibility, but there's a personal responsibility. And you have to amalgamate the to.

Yes, yeah. Well said. Let's talk about the younger generation coming into the workforce today. What advice would you give to your 25 year old self today in today's world?

For me, this is directed at me a greater sense of humility. I read it look back on the, my gosh, 30 years since I was 25, Jen. And I would say much of that moment that 30 years was not infused with a right to a degree of humility. I would reduce the moments of anger that I've experienced internally and find an inner calmness, which enable would have enabled better decisions at times, more thoughtful decisions at times. I would never stop advising myself and others, that careers don't happen instantly. That there is a grit and grind that you have to do. But guess what, the more you put in, the more you get out, is still a truism. Lastly, and I think that we are in a situation very genuinely where the generation underneath us, or maybe one more, twice underneath us, has got to take back control. And I am currently probably the least optimistic about future than I've been in a while. That's not to say I've lost all hope, or I'm not an optimistic person, my glass is always half full. But knowing what we know now, there are three areas that I think we need to take back control the sustainability of our planet, it's shouting at us. And we're not listening to the hidden versus the stated needs. The acceptance of the fellow man and woman in all his or her diversity, that allows us to be who we wish and want to be. And lastly, the socio economic divide that is causing abstract poverty in our world that is causing the rich to get richer, the poor get poorer, and the divisions in society that will ultimately cause a breaking point. And perhaps the advice I would give to a 25 year old if I was that person now is underlying all of that with a compassion that is infectious that can actually make a change.

Now, you and I are very proud of our homeland.

Indeed, we are.

And you recently were appointed to tell me what the correct name of the position is, please.

I'm one of the first three Welsh Government envoys worldwide. And alongside a very, very wonderful lady. The two of us are the Welsh envoys to the United States. It's a little bit like a trade ambassador. The desire is to promote our extraordinary homeland to the world. To tell a story of what Wales is you and I know what it is an extraordinary workforce thoughtful, highly educated, incredible cyber community in Wales, a semiconductor community, you know, better than anyone, Aston Martin. It's, I think it's European plant right, headquartered in St. Athan 20 miles from where we were, Ford was there. So it's really about driving export from Wales, and inward investment. And then just promoting the beauty of Wales at a time when people can travel again. And the one thing that's been striking me recently is the concept of the ability to export digital talent. We may be restricted from travel, but the beauty of these moments are as long as we're okay with timezones. We can export the talent in a digital manner across the globe. So it's a real honor to represent Wales in this way. I couldn't want a closer connection to my homeland been through this.

Yeah, it's wonderful. It's a wonderful appointment. And I whenever I'm going through my keynote speeches on stage I show the Welsh flag. And I talk about you I tell people I'm Welsh, I'm not English, I Welsh, the Welsh are a fiery, feisty sort of people, we even have a dragon on our flag. And there is that sort of sense of passion and the rebel spirits that we have in Wales, but it really has manifested itself in a truly talented, skilled workforce. And Wales has kept up with technology and not to make this a Brexit discussion. But I do see that in a Brexit could actually help Wales stand more on its own two feet so that they can export more.

Jan, I'm not saying this in the wrong way. But there's talent like yours, like you, in the automotive industry in Detroit. I had no idea you were living in Detroit. You've you became an executive in this industry. How many more Welsh people like you exist, that want to help Wales, stand up and be proud of who it is on the global stage. Every day, I can name four or five people that we discover that are Welsh doing amazing things. Do you know, for example, that the head of the Star Wars franchise at Lucas Films is from Tenby. Now, let me tell you, for those of your listeners who are going, what did he say 10 B, it's the most beautiful seaside town and hills, but she lives in San Francisco. And she's amazing. And, you know, it goes on and on. And then one of the things that I've witnessed is, you know, the Welsh Government, as you know, was, you know, of course, you know, as devolved some of its powers from Western minister. And one of the most interesting thing that's been going on recently, is that the First Minister and his team have been able to make their own decisions about how to deal with a pandemic. And as a consequence, their decisions and rules are different from Northern Ireland, Scotland and England. And when the UK figures are put out, they tell a story that is not the story of how low Wales has kept the numbers compared to England. Now, I'm not knocking England, please. No, I lived in England for most of my adult life and love it. But the devolution power there has helped Wales in the same way that you hint that the devolution and the management of trade in a Brexit environment could help Wales.

Yes, yes. And I think that's a beautiful way to close our time together today. Allard miles, thank you so much for sharing your story and your leadership insights with us today.

It's a pleasure. But most of all, it's a pleasure to reconnect with you after too many years and I am delighted that your success and all that you have brought to this fascinating and relevant subject for leadership. So I super appreciate being on Thank you.

Thank you

If you enjoyed listening to this podcast and you found something of value that will help you on your quest for your gravitas then please share with your friends and colleagues and subscribe. Visit us at gravitasdetroit.com To find out more