Learning to Thrive Beyond Pornography use was the greatest challenge of our life and marriage. It had rocked my self confidence, tainted all of the most important experiences of my life and become the most impossible challenge I had.

With this podcast or at https://www.GetToThrive.com you'll learn about the struggle, how to overcome pornography use, and where to find additional resources to begin to thrive beyond pornography with your spouse.

At some point I took a step away from all the 12 step meetings and councilors and started to figure out my own brain, to look at my issue as something that I had the answer to and I was going to figure it out. Here I share those lessons and give you the power to start your own journey free. Whether you struggle with unwanted pornography use or are the spouse or partner, whether you feel stuck or just don't know where to start, here I will teach you principles, tools and skills that you can use today to change how you think and, in the end, what you do.

You'll hear interviews with my spouse, with experts on human sexuality and with former and current pornography users on how you can overcome your own struggle with addictive behavior.

The Thrive Beyond Pornography podcast will bring new perspective to your struggle and keep you coming back to improve all aspects of your life. (formerly, The Self Mastery Podcast: Overcome Pornography Forever)

Episode 258

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And then, of course, what I would suggest that people do in the short term and maybe sometimes in the long run. So I'm going to start with An email that I got from a young woman. It says, am I wrong for feeling uncomfortable with my boyfriend watching porn? I'm 18. I have some issues and those affect how I process emotions.

I've always been jealous, especially after It looks like she's been cheated on a couple of times. I get jealous when my boyfriend talks about other women, exes, or even when a woman is on TV. I know these women aren't part of his life, but I'm afraid he'll realize I'm not enough. Or he'll lose interest because I'm not as attractive or thin.

Maybe it sounds like she's kind of comparing herself to the, to the other women. I haven't brought it up because I know he won't stop, but it still bothers me. Am I wrong for feeling this way? I think the answer is no, you're not wrong for feeling this way. And I, I don't say that to say, hey, you should just like, keep going in this direction of, I'm jealous.

But there's a couple of things that really need to shift here in this conversation. Number one is, if you're uncomfortable with your boyfriend watching porn, that's a conversation you need to become willing to have. So you need to be able to say, hey, I don't want this in our relationship.

I don't think that this is a good idea. This, uh, Is not how I want to engage with our sexuality. I understand that you might be using it for your own, you know, self gratification, and that's not something that I can make you stop doing, but I want to have an adult conversation. You won't, you want to be able to have an adult conversation about this and say, I don't like this in our relationship, and I, I struggle with not being the only person in your life.

I think the other component that you will want to work on is that sense of jealousy. His behavior is not necessarily about you, although, It does affect you. And so that's really this, this fine line that you have to become willing to walk and say, okay, what's going on for him is not necessarily about me, but I also want to be able to be vocal about my own reality and what my feelings are so that we can discuss them and come to an agreement as adults, not just pretend like he's going to figure out what you want and you're not ever going to say anything.

So you want to get to a position where you feel empowered enough to have these conversations with them because that's really the definition of intimacy. To be known to someone is the most intimate thing you can do and if you're not willing or able or you don't feel like your relationship is strong enough or you don't feel like you are strong enough to let him know what really is going on in your, in your mind, that's the muscle that you want to work because in working that muscle, you'll become stronger, you'll become more knowable, and you'll be less likely To shy away from the rejection, because that's the thing that we're always running away from in these kinds of, like, I don't want to talk to him about this, or I don't want to talk to her about this, because I know they'll reject me, or they'll, they won't, you said it here, I haven't brought it up because I know he won't stop.

That's a rejection of your position. And your feelings there are, it seems like your feelings there are to not even bring it up so that you won't be rejected in your position instead of being more open and real about what's actually happening for you.

I think that's one of the things that you can do to really position yourself in a, in a great place going forward is to, to grow a little bit in this space of, I want to be able to be actually intimate with my partner. And so I want to be able to step in and have this conversation with him and try that out.

And, work through that and work into that. And I think you'll find that. In the long run, maybe not with this particular young man, but in the long run, I think you'll find that you're much more pleased with your relationships in that, in that framework.

Okay, next question. I fell off the wagon.

Tips for getting back on. Hi, I managed to stay clean for pretty much a month this summer, but last weekend I relapsed. I thought I could get back on the horse again, but then I relapsed even worse this weekend. I'm also heading into a stressful period at work, and I'm worried that the urges will get worse as the stress increases.

Do you have any tips for picking yourself up and starting again, like actionable steps to take? I'm not trying to be hard on myself, but I realize that I may have underestimated how hard it would be to keep staying clean. So now I'm asking for help. Thank you in advance. Okay, so, yes, absolutely, there are actionable steps.

But. The short answer is yes, there are actionable steps. The first thing that you need to be doing is figuring out why am I viewing pornography? What is the emotion or the issue or the thing that I'm trying to avoid? And then start facing that thing directly. I know that's a, that sounds very, very simplistic.

And to a degree it is simplistic, but it is the one thing that we very rarely try to do. We try to like, you know, Avoid or circumvent or suppress the feelings or the issues that we're dealing with instead of digging into them and addressing them face on. And if you need a little bit of help with that, feel free to just sign up for a free consult.

But the, the short version is. Figure out why you're viewing porn and to do that, you're going to need to start asking some questions. What was I doing in the 30 minutes before I actually started viewing pornography? How was I feeling? Why was I feeling that way? So what was the story behind the feelings?

And what is the, what is the phraseology or the ideas that pop into my head that start me down that path so I can start to become more aware of it? So those are the action steps that I would, would offer you. Start getting more aware of why you're viewing porn by asking questions. As you ask those questions, start to become aware of your emotions more capable of seeing them clearly. And then of course, start looking for and understanding the story that underlines those underlies those emotions. So you can address that story directly. And if you need, like I said, if you need a little bit of help addressing that story, then set up a console, get to thrive.

com slash work with Zach. And I'll, I'll walk you through it.

Okay, I haven't watched porn in months, but every now and then I still, I'm still thinking about all the porn and all the porn and sex workers I used to watch. When will these thoughts go away?

I feel like I'm going to break if I keep having these thoughts.

Okay, this is really important and I think everybody needs to understand this. These thoughts will not just disappear on their own. You have to have a good process for addressing them directly. And it's, it's important to understand why this is the way that it is.

So there's a, There's some experiments called the pink elephant or the white bear experiments. And basically what they show is anytime we try to take a thought or an idea and we try to suppress it. So if I say to you, don't think about a pink elephant or don't think about a white bear, your brain is not very good at not doing it.

It's only, it's, it's really only good at doing it. That's what it does. It does. I know that sounds a bit redundant, but the reality is your brain does, it doesn't not do. And, when your brain is doing, and you say, Okay, I can't do, I don't want to do, I gotta get rid of the doing that's happening, thinking about the white bear, thinking about the pink elephant, thinking about the videos, that you've been watching, and you say, I can't watch those, I can't think about that.

Well, your brain will then start to, Obsess about it. It will actually start to bring it up more because what you're doing when you're trying to suppress that or avoid it, or however you're trying to do it, um, distract yourself, whatever is you're creating an emotional tag in your mind. You're saying, Hey, this is a big deal.

Like I need to deal with this later. And every time you do that. It becomes a bigger and bigger deal. And the more you have this big deal hanging over your head that you're not addressing, the more likely it is that your brain's going to bring it up because it's obsessed over it. It's like, Hey, why, why aren't we dealing with this?

What's going on? This seems like such a big deal and we're avoiding dealing with it. So anytime these, these thoughts come up, there are a few techniques that you can use, ACT, acceptance and commitment training, or acceptance and commitment therapy for, uh, for pornography use. Is in my. Is the only effective way to deal with your brain.

What you want to do is start by using one of the diffusion techniques that is available. You can just Google diffusion techniques in act and you can find these. My favorite diffusion technique, the one that I think is the most effective for this basic framework is called NAB.

It's my own technique. I created it myself, but it's notice and name, allow and ask. Breathe and be kind. So what we're doing is we're just getting present and centered in the, in the face of this thought. And we notice it. Oh, this is the part of, this is the moment where my brain just offers me these videos of things that I used to watch.

That's all we're doing. We're noticing it and naming it. That's it. Next. I'm going to allow that to be there. I'm not going to run from it. I'm not going to fight with it. I'm just going to be like, Oh yeah, that's a video that I used to watch. Or that's somebody that was interesting to me. And I'm going to ask questions and the questions I'm going to ask are not the kind of questions that you do to like be mad at yourself or try to, you know, force this thing down.

The goal of asking questions is to get curious. So we're transferring from thoughts of fear or freak out or whatever it is, or even arousal. If you've been dwelling on these thoughts, you're transferring from that. You're moving from that and you're actively pursuing curiosity about what's happening for you.

As you actively pursue that curiosity, what you're going to find is that you're getting closer to being centered and you're. Not beating yourself up. And so you just want to take deep breaths and be kind to yourself. I'm okay. I'm not a bad person. These thoughts are here. I can't make them go away and I'm going to move towards the things that are important to me, that fulfill my values, that I want to live by, and I'm not gonna worry about this.

It's going to be okay. And that's what you do. That's it. It's really simple. Okay, next question. I've spent 2, 000 on porn in the last few months. I think I need help. I yeah, you probably do need help. I mean, that's probably a lot of money to spend on pornography. Um, it says I'm a 21 year old male. I've been an avid porn watcher for probably 10 years.

But over the last few months, I've been I have been paying girls that I've met on Reddit or Instagram to send me nudes of themselves. And I just keep doing it and doing it. I can't stop. This is draining a lot of my money. I don't know what to do. Please help. Okay, so one of the very first things you have to recognize here is when you are sending this money to these women, all they're doing, they're validating you for money.

This is almost the same thing as going, you know, up to a stranger and being like, Hey, I need you to compliment me and I'll give you 20. That's essentially what's happening here. So one of the things that I would be looking at for you is why do you feel like you want this validation? Like, what is the validation that you're seeking here?

And by the way, these girls are also seeking validation because that's what you're giving them in the form of money. You're saying, Hey, let me validate your line of work or the way that you're, you know, choosing to live your life by sending you money to support what you're doing. So this essentially is a validation exchange.

It is transactional at the very, very core level. And the question you want to start asking yourself is, why do I want these people that I don't know to be validating me? What is going on for me internally that I don't feel good about who I am? And why I am the way that I am so that I need someone external from me to say, you're enough because I desire you enough to send you these pictures of me in compromising positions or these pictures of me that you really haven't earned.

Like you're paying for them, but you haven't earned them. Right. Um, you know, there, I, I often say that the most wonderful thing in the world is a woman who chooses you and chooses to share herself with you. That is honestly the most intoxicating, marvelous thing in the world. That is why I think men and women fall in love because, you know, the opportunity to create that kind of a connection is enormous and it's wonderful.

This particular version of that. Is transactional. It's not freely given, right? Because even though you're paying her and she's doing it because she chooses to, it's not free. She wouldn't do it if it weren't for the money. And in doing that, what is created is a false sense of validation.

And so you just want to start to question, well, why do I want this validation? What's this validation providing to me? How can I step back from this desire to use this validation? To feel better. And why am I asking these girls for this stuff in the first place? What is going on in my mind that I'm seeking out this kind of validation rather than finding someone who chooses me freely and honestly and directly?

So that's where I would start with that. I would just start like getting curious. Why do I feel like I need to spend this money? Why do I want this validation?

All right. Next one, wondering what to fill the void with or to make the void into a different shape. Okay. This is great. Uh, hello, I'm coming off yet another relapse and am wondering something. I think what is ultimately leading me back to porn consistently isn't some longing for it, but instead of. A very benign itch that can only be scratched by masturbation and pornography.

What did you do to fill the void that porn had in your day to day routine? I've tried things like working out and meditation, but nothing's working to complete.

I've been surrounded by too much isolation and introspection the last couple of weeks and it's gotten me feeling very lonely and depressed. Hope to hear from you. Hope you have a great Sunday. Okay. Yeah. So. You're right. It isn't trying to replace it. And it's, if, if what you try to do is you try to like fill the void of your porn use with something else, well, let me tell you, let me tell you a story.

I went to a meeting once when a woman got up, she was about 300, 350 pounds. She got up and she said, today is the 20 year anniversary of the last time I had an alcoholic drink. And she was, I mean, rightly, we celebrated that. Having known this person for a little bit of time, I knew what she looked like when she was younger.

And what had happened is she went from. Alcohol to food. That's how she filled the void. And what you want to understand about filling the void is that you can do that, and that can be a new way of coping. But the question is, what is the cost of the new coping mechanism? What does it cost you in terms of time, energy, effort, your sense of self, all of those things.

If you can, instead of trying to fill the void, address the void. If you can, instead of trying to fill the void, address the void directly, you'll be in a much better position. So, what I'm talking about there is being able to say, Why do I want porn? What is it that It is fulfilling in my day to day life, and how can I address that problem directly, rather than using porn to escape my reality.

So, and, and this is I think a really important thing to note,

Most people who view pornography when it goes against their values are, are doing that because it is doing something for them. It's filling a need. It's fulfilling. Like you say here, it's fulfilling some void that you aren't quite able to, to manage by, probably no fault of your own. You probably just haven't been taught how to deal with whatever problem it is that you're dealing with emotionally, mentally.

And you're, Instead, and instead of addressing it directly, what you're doing is you're just avoiding it until you don't have to feel that way anymore. So what you want to start to do is just address that thing directly. Why do I, why am I choosing this? Can I see myself more clearly. So we go back to the clean break system, um, which has that detour cycle in it.

The detour cycle is the narrative onset, the emotional catalyst,

the escape offer, rationalized bargaining, and then the values breach, those five steps. Well, if you can start to see at the escape offer that, Oh wait, I'm leaving my values, why is that happening? Oh, I feel stressed, lonely, bored, hungry, whatever it is, tired. Why do I feel tired?

Well, I might be up late, right? So I'm going to address that problem directly. Or if I'm stressed, why am I stressed? Oh, I feel like I'm not making enough money. Okay, I'm going to address that problem directly. If I feel frustrated, okay, why do I feel frustrated? Because I think that my wife doesn't really like me the way that I like her.

Okay, so I'm going to address that problem directly. That process of addressing why you have a void is much more valuable than trying to fill the void or trying to escape the problem and it gives you a better framework for actually stepping into and solving the struggle. And then when that happens, your brain actually gets to a point where it's like, Oh, I don't need to escape this problem.

So I'm not going to offer porn as an escape. I'm going to deal with the problem directly because I've learned how to do that. What you're trying to do is habitualize it, learn it, and then habitualize it, learn it, and then habitualize it to the point where it happens automatically. The same way your brain automatically offers you porn right now.

All right, my friends, I hope those questions were interesting to you as much as they were interesting to me. I love. Talking to my clients. I love talking to people who aren't my clients, frankly. So send me any questions you have. You can send them to Zach at zachspafford. com, or you can reach out and sign up for a free consult at gettothrive.

com slash work with Zach. I would love to meet with you. I'd love to help you work through these questions, in a more concrete way so that you have that stable foundation to work from and then move into a thriving, fulfilling life without porn. All right, my friends, we'll talk to you next week.