In this compelling episode of the Pivot Podcast, hosts Dwight Zscheile and Terri Elton welcome the Rev. F. Willis Johnson, who shares his experiences leading a church in Ferguson, Missouri during times of racial unrest. Willis offers a practical guide on how churches can actively engage in justice work, emphasizing the importance of self-reflection, local relevance, and concrete action. Listeners will discover how to "hold up their corner" in community transformation and why new expressions of faith are crucial in addressing today's social challenges.

Willis challenges church leaders to move beyond their comfort zones, embracing curiosity and openness in engaging with diverse communities. He provides insights on reimagining church for the 21st century, where faith and justice are inextricably linked. This episode is essential listening for church leaders, social justice advocates, and anyone seeking to understand how faith communities can effectively contribute to creating a more just and equitable society. Tune in for a conversation that will inspire you to put your faith into action in meaningful, community-centered ways.

RESOURCES MENTIONED:

• Holding Up Your Corner: talking about Race in Your Community by author F. Willis Johnson

Watch this episode on YouTube: https://youtu.be/08M6DKzDWXk

Willis: Too many people layer the general language the the stereotypical or the trending um, uh, critique or challenge and not bring it and make it relevant to where they are. Because every issue let's just deal with race. Every issue of race is not just black and white. I challenge my own congregation that historically was striving to be a multicultural, multiracial, multicultural congregation. Um, I have them understand that, you know what? When you started, the multicultural issue was black and white, but that's evolved. And the call for us and faith is greater than just black and white people get along together. Okay. Uh, if we're inclusive, is it inclusive across age and stage? Are we really as accepting or welcoming, not just in the flag bearing that we have, but can someone who is uniquely abled actually come through the door and go to the bathroom in the same side of the building?

Dwight: Hello everyone. Welcome to the Pivot podcast, where we explore how the church can faithfully navigate a changing world. I'm Dwight Zscheile and I'm joined by Terri Elton. One of the key pivots we discuss frequently on this show is the pivot, from one size or shape fitting all to a mixed ecology of inherited and new forms of Christian community flourishing together. Today's guest is a practitioner of the mixed ecology, with deep experience helping Christian communities engage meaningfully with their neighbors. We are so excited to welcome the Reverend Doctor F Willis Johnson to the show. Doctor Johnson is senior minister at Christ Church UMC in Columbus, Ohio, and just joined our faculty here at Luther Seminary as a visiting instructor in starting New Christian communities. He is an experienced church planter and the author of Holding Up Your Corner Talking About Race in Your Community, which draws on his experience as a pastor in Ferguson, Missouri. Willis, welcome to the Pivot podcast.

Willis: Thank you for having me.

Terri: So, Willis, I've enjoyed our conversations up to this point. We're still getting to know each other about your story. And man, all the things that you have learned from your ministry and from your background and from your experiences. You are, among other things, a ministry entrepreneur. You're also an educator, and you've started things, and you've led churches in a variety of contexts. So I wonder if you'd just start us off by telling a little bit about your journey, some of your touch points that have influenced your ministry, and your understanding of really critical topics today for ministry leaders.

Willis: Yeah, well, thank you. And thank you for, uh, those comments, uh, those compliments. Uh, yeah. I probably sound like somebody who can't keep a job or is not, uh, very focused. Uh, but I think that, uh, over the years has, uh, has served well, uh, I've, I'm actually a child, not of the parsonage, but of the classroom. Um, my mother and father, grandparents, um, are educators. And actually, you know, in found myself, uh, traveling down that road at least, um, in terms of a professional track at one time to be be an educator. And and I get to do that. I think I'm living into that in some, some regards. And and then I got bit by the kind of the, the political bug and, and uh, had some exposure early on in high school and through college, where it led me. After graduation from college, I had an opportunity to be a gubernatorial staffer for the late Frank O'Bannon in in Indiana, and served there and worked in the legislature and all kinds of other things. And so, um, you know, that kind of work matched with work I was doing in kind of the municipal setting and internships that I had, uh, and then, um, uh, being involved with nonprofit development over the years, all those things seem to, uh, shape me. And then I got this, this call. Uh, I knew I was doing something, uh, but it was like, I just felt like I was something else I was supposed to do. You know, life was good or life was progressing and work was was healthy, but it just seemed like it was more for me to do. And so I was very fortunate to, um, have models and ministry throughout my formation, uh, both as a young person and then as a young, young, aspiring ministry leader, where the leaders were not just people who showed up on Sunday or hung out in the church house from Monday through Friday, they were um, uh, you know, representatives literally like the city councilman who became the first black mayor was my pastor and who's now a sitting congressman and reverend, uh, Congressman Emanuel Cleaver, uh, to to work under one who worked for Bill gray, who was at the time the Ways and Means chair, uh, and who but also, uh, who is this young man that I became my mentor? Uh, that's what he did when he was a young adjutant or, uh, aspirant, uh, and being formed in ministry and then bringing his model of ministry of someone leading a church, but still continuing to to develop, uh, as a PhD candidate and who was active in community and who was engaged. And so I always just thought, that's what you know, that's what clergy leaders, that's what ministry leaders do, you know. Um, and then I heard this crazy notion when I was in seminary about eighth century prophets and how these were, uh, individuals who most of them didn't think that they were called to a ministry of parish necessarily that we would refer to. But they were people who were more in the spirit of Fannie Lou Hamer and more in the, in the, in the way of, of kind of what would be working in professional or practitioning people, but they had a responsibility to speak truth and to to live out faith and to help people, particularly in the ways of justice and equality and equity, I should say. And all that just shaped me. So, you know, that's that was my introduction into ministry. And then, you know, life kind of happened where, um, some opportunities came where someone said, hey, can you take all this uniqueness and all this, uh, schizophrenia that everyone else calls or thinks it to be? And can you bring it there to help us create new, new, new opportunities. We want to plant churches and we think you might have a skill set for that. And I was fortunate enough to to get that opportunity and where I planted a church life seem on seemed to take root in a very unique way that that further, um, heightened or stretched my trajectory as it relates to my work in ministry.

Dwight: So you were a pastor in Ferguson, Missouri, during a time of significant racial tension after Michael Brown was killed. Tell us a bit about that experience, and how did that time shape your approach to ministry and community engagement?

Willis: Well, we're actually coming up on ten years of Michael Brown in, in, in time to come. And, um, I think the simplest way to state it, it was it was hectic. Uh, it was incredibly humbling. Uh, that, that, that time both of living and being, but also in ministry. And it was very formative. Um, uh, the reality that life is happening, uh, sometimes doesn't always make its way. Uh, as much as we try in our preaching or in our in our espousing of our faith and and inviting people in faith. We think sometimes we're really, like talking about what's happening. Uh, but but a lot of times on the other side of our doors, in our, in our, in our beautiful windows, there's a whole different conversation and reality that's happening. And for, for my community at that time, uh, we had no choice but to be met with what? What the world, what was happening in the world and the world was happening to us. Uh, with us and the world's eyes, ears and interests were upon us. And it took a it took an emergent institution or entity like the church I was planting that had actually been there for some years prior. We were there probably about, uh, about three and a half years before, um, trying to do ministry and trying to be in community. And even before Michael Brown, we had two, uh, uh, f, uh, high level, uh, tornadoes that came through that community, as well as other things that had happened. And so it was already a community that was, um, that had been challenged. But we in our faith, maybe not, had not been challenged or had not been forced to apply our faith and our witness in that way. And so, um, not only was there a lot happening that made it hectic, but it was humbling because for the first time, um, I had to reimagine what it meant to be, um, to be a person not only leading faith, but of faith in a space and in a in a situation that that wasn't top of mind. That wasn't that. That wasn't necessarily first response for the majority of people. Um, and the, the, the need for the things of church or of faith communities was not what were traditional or what we think to be traditionally what we do. Um, and we learned new we learned to be new. We learned to be different. I learned some things about myself, uh, I think our community learned. And I relearned church. And that's the best thing that ever could have happened to me, even though it's good for me. But it didn't feel good to me at the time.

Dwight: Well, so I'm curious, what do you say you relearned how to be church? Say a little more about that. What did that look like for for this, for this new church that you were leading?

Willis: Interestingly, a lot of the things that happened during our time in Ferguson. Um, you know, we were aspirational that we wanted to be, um, a community that and an expression of faith that was open. We we literally had, uh, you know, you know, church planters, we we do marketing. You know, I got I got a bad video. I have to show you the video sometime. I mean, it was Emmy Award winning. I mean, I got, you know, you got it. So, you know, we had this montage where we like, we wanted the music to hit the streets, and we wanted it to be a place that would have the doors swing open and people flood in and all that stuff that was in that video. It happened. But it wasn't that. It wasn't that majestic. It was like, you know, the music went to the streets because the air half worked and we needed to open the windows and and then when Ferguson happened, when the, when, when Michael Brown and the other, uh, events of that happened, um, you know, the, the, the, the protests and the and the, the shouts from the street on Sundays were louder than the shouts and the amens in the pews. And so if you can't beat them, you got to figure out how to join them. Uh, we had to. So we we had this idea of church that was idyllic, but we had not fully, uh, Readied ourselves for what it would mean if the doors had to swing open, or when the doors had to come closed to provide refuge from from from the events of tear gas and the challenge of of what it means to be, um, unsafe or in a situation of, of need. We had to reimagine that church was not about Sunday anymore, or just Sunday. That most of our work and much of our our, our benefit and much of what we learned and were able to offer. Um, did not require liturgy printed on a bulletin. It did not need a format. It knew no timestamp. And yet it it it was desired, even if it was not expressed in the way or asked for in the way in which we typically are asked or received in the ways best that we usually offer. And so relearning church and relearning community was like, you know what? Sometimes the best thing we can do is just make ourselves available, make our space available. Um, uh, maybe, uh, just be present. Um, uh, because that's what people ask. And how do we leverage our privilege or how in this particular case, how do we how do we be more Pauline, uh, that we're in that we have some some uniqueness, some citizenship, some, some relationship that we can lean into on behalf of others who don't. And maybe that is more of our task than trying to baptize people with water and hand out, you know, gluten free, uh, wafers. How about we be communion instead of just do communion?

Terri: Yeah, I love that. There's two different ways that I think we can go on that. I'm going to pick one of them for now and maybe leave the other to Dwight. There. You've written about your learnings as a leader and and thinking specifically about race in community and the kind of transformation that we can bring with the gospel as we think differently about church. So my two questions I'll put together. Can you explain this concept that you have of holding up your corner and kind of the significance around community transformation, but also what is some lessons that you would give church leaders that are out there trying to faithfully navigate the racial issues that they might be facing in their own community? As you think about, as you reflect on some of those learnings from that time.

Willis: Well, I one, the concept of holding up your corner. I wish it was original. You know, I'm a creature of of the of the canon of and so, um, you know, there's this there's this cool gospel narrative around these brothers who, who have a hurt friend, and they don't like the fact that their friend has been hurt or is suffering or hurting. And so they, they, they come together and say, hey, let's take the hurt one to the source of help and hope. And so that actual narrative, I think, in its, in its original form, translates out to something to the effect that each of them grabbed a piece or a corner of what was the pallet or the mat or the bedding that, that, that their, their friend was laying on. And they each took a piece of that and made their way to the source of help and hope. And as I like to say, they got there, it was crowded. So they, they, they decided to tear the roof off the sucker, in the words of my great theologian, um, George Clinton. And and they lowered him down. And of course, you know these things because this is a scholarly, uh, a scholarly group that's listening here, I'm sure. And they already know that the story goes that when the, the, the source of help and hope saw their faith, then their friend, their brother was healed. And so holding up your corner is really just me, you know, taking, taking my imagination and also believing what we all can do. We can't fix all of the problems. All of the problem is not ours to fix. Um, but there's a piece of something that we can do and that we can we can activate that may be part of a greater exercise or a collective work. And and that's what holding up your corner means. And I really say that particularly because, you know, we hear expressions like in my little corner of the world or on my corner, you know what? Yes. So many people and I and I know this is probably, uh, I'm teetering into dangerous territory because I know you're a missiologist, uh, or two around on this broadcast. I have no problem with mission. Matter of fact, we should all be on mission. We should all be on purpose. Um, everyone's called to. Mission is not necessarily across waters and across, uh, great, great means of travel. Some of us just need to cross the street. Some of us just need to uncross our arms and our eyes, uh, and and look before us and right at us. And so that that kind of metaphor and theme, uh, one, you know, it took when I spoke about it, people liked it. It worked, uh, to, you know, the publisher thought that was cool, easy to work with. But more importantly, it's it's, um, I think it's indicative even now more than ever, that, um, we not try to find the biggest issue problem or the, the most complicated thing to solve. Let's just find something to grab. Hold on. There's power in that. And that's more accessible for most of us. And start where we are and then venture out. Um, is is where that comes from to to the question about, well, the point about what what would I encourage, um, leaders to how to begin to navigate or negotiate particularly issues of, of of race. Um, I'm always sensitive, Uh, because, uh, if you read the book, while it highlights, um, probably this nation's greatest and most pervasive, uh, sin and struggle, which is our issue of othering, of race and of of of of of respectful, disrespectful intolerance of each other. Um, it is the ideas transcend. They, they speak to whatever issues that divide, um, that dehumanize, that demean. And so I always encourage people just like finding something small or a piece of something to do, uh, that they would invite themselves, uh, that they would first start with what is nearest to them and what's most before them. And that's that person in the mirror. Um, to start to begin to look at yourself. Um, uh, Mahatma Gandhi talks about. We must become the change we wish to see. Uh, so many, um, so many people look outward and don't look inward. And so for clergy leaders, particularly for community leaders in faith. And I'm a please forgive me, but I want to go here possibly for some in the audience. I say this to students a lot. People always say, well, how do I talk about race? Um, in my community. And I kind of look at them and I'm like, okay, well, I'm not trying to make a lot of assumptions, but how many people that look like me are in your community? Okay. What is what is the what is race look like or what is the issue look like in your community? Because I think if you're preaching contextually or if you're leading with, uh, with, through a lens of, of your, your mission field or of your, your constituency, your audience, your um, then that in itself should help inform, uh, and encourage, uh, and invite you to figure or discern what you speak on. So I'm always interested when students kind of ask me this, uh, the first thing I say is this, um, acknowledge whatever is not right in your space or community if it happens to be, uh, issues of race and ethnic and cultural, uh, dissonance and intolerance and incompetence. Okay. What what about it is wrong. Um, too many people layer, uh, the general language, the, the stereotypical or the trending um, uh, critique or challenge and not bring it and make it relevant to where they are because every issue. Let's just get with race. Every issue of race is not just black and white. I challenge my own congregation that historically was striving to be a multicultural, multiracial, multicultural congregation. Um, I have them understand that, you know what? When you started, the multicultural issue was black and white. But that's evolved. And the call for us and faith is greater than just black and white people get along together. Okay. Uh, if we're inclusive, is it inclusive across age and stage? Are we really as accepting or welcoming, not just in a the flag bearing that we have, but can someone who is uniquely abled actually come through the door and go to the bathroom in the same side of the building? Well, you have to acknowledge that, which means you have to look at yourself and you have to look at your space, and you have to look at where you're at versus going all the way down the street, around the corner, or to DC and judging and critiquing about something that is not immediate or relevant. So we acknowledge and then the last two, we worked through how it is and what it is that we understand and how others others understand what it is that's not right and how we make it right, or what would be, um, both respectful or right and even righteous for the space or the coal, the coal, quote, cooperative space that we share and existence that we have. And then we make we make decision to actually, um, do something different or act that if we see something that's not right, we believe it not right, then we should not just keep letting it be wrong. When you know better, you do better, you know? And so, uh, that's a thumbnail sketch of, of not just what I learned in my own struggles and strivings, but it's what I invite, and I'm still having to do it because the issues are ever evolving. Race is one. Um, but however we other or whatever is different than ourselves or our communities that we may not understand or that we may not, um, be be as loving and just towards. It's not the other people. It's like it starts with me and we.

Dwight: You know, I love the way that you're inviting us into concrete actions that are local as a place to begin. You know, I think so often it's easy to get very abstract or very grandiose when we think about things like, you know, prophetic witness and but change happens really, you know, grounded in the local. And so this is, I think, a really encouraging message. Um, so one of the things that we're curious to wonder with you about is, you know, a lot of the church leaders we work with have expectations on them from their communities that they're really supposed to just kind of fix the existing inherited form of church, right? And fix whatever the problems are with it, bring it back to some previous historical moment where it seemed to be working better.

Terri: Usually 19 something.

Dwight: Sorry, usually 50, 75 years ago, something like that. Um, rather than leaning into helping a community discern and follow God's leading. And in our previous conversations, we've heard you talk about discerning God's leading. And so share a bit with our listeners and viewers. Um, how can churches lean into that work of discerning God's leading? What does that look like? And I'm curious how it relates to what you've been just sharing about the concrete local actions.

Willis: I'm glad you asked that, because I'm really, uh, both, uh, personally struggling or wrestling with this and in a lot of ways and, um, I guess trying to write and and practice through it literally in this moment, I think we, um, you know, first of all, trying to do anything different is hard. Trying to learn something. Can we say.

Terri: Amen to that? I think that would be a good amen.

Willis: I pastor, I pastor and parent across generations. So I have some kids who are really already potty trained and old and, and uh, and then I got this youngest one who is not and, uh, and it's hard, it's hard, it's messy. It's, it's, you know, anyway. So yeah, it's hard. So again, acknowledge change is hard and and but it's, it's, it's necessary as it relates to maturing and becoming. I would ask people to do is I'm trying to do now, um, one not to approach or involve yourself in this exercise out of desperation. Too many faith communities are forced or find themselves in these conversations way too late or under, under protest and pretense that does not allow for the full emotion, the full expression of what I'm about to offer up, which is to dare to be curious. Um, when I said I talked about unlearning church, I had to get past the fear of, um, if I don't do if I do this differently, who will be mad? What will be affected? So a good example. Um, the struggle to, um, find yourself offering something other than Sunday. Okay. You and you, you all know that, um, despite whatever we may think and however faith, however faithful people are, Sunday in, um, in American culture is no longer the Lord's Day alone. Okay. Um, there's a three letter word or acronym that's not God that Sunday is commandeered by. So I tell people right off the bat, hey, I'll have you home for kickoff. Come to my church. I'm gonna have you home for kickoff. I live in the middle of Big Ten country. Uh, I think we share that reality. I also live in the middle of major sports teams. And so I have found myself being curious on what? What has people attracted to what they are attracted to. Where is it that people are finding the things that I believe? Um, my tradition or my my expression, my community offers to people? Why is it that they see it or may experience it differently or more aptly, elsewhere? And so, being a church planter, I spent more time going to coffee shops and boot camps and gyms. Uh, I joined, uh, running clubs, and I had a bike team, uh, that I learned how to cycle 100, you know, do century century rides, uh, and, you know, and I said, oh, I know why this is cool. Because one, you know, it meets me. I'm a I'm a former collegiate athlete. I'm a I'm a weekend warrior, and this is my jam. But then these people checked up on me, or they invited my family, and they didn't just ride bikes. They went and had better potlucks. Matter of fact, they didn't have a potluck. They had. They had a keg. They had they had the they had the brew of the Holy. I mean, Luther would be proud of it. Uh, yes. How else do you fun. How else do you fund the ministry and sustain your health? Talk to Peter. Timothy. Come here. Take some for your stomach. So, anyway, all that to say, if you missed it in listening, be curious. Curiosity. Curiosity, I think right now is where I stand. I'm curious to know the good and the bad. I'm curious to know the other side. In my conversations and in my engagement, I have some TV stations that I have to pray and prepare myself. But I give myself a time limit and I watch them and I listen and it sometimes it hurts, but I need to know what's being said or what's happening. I just recently closed my church on Sunday. This past Sunday we did not have worship at our campus. I sent my congregation and leaders to go visit other churches and worship with them and to experience what they do, because I think one, I have people who have not left that church since. Now that's a dangerous proposition. Trust me. I got a phone call from my finance team. Okay, okay. How are we supposed to take offering? Uh, how do you use the take off? I mean, people don't give. They don't give. Curiosity is, I think, important right now. That's what is in my spirit. That's is what I'm inviting people. And that's even what I'm mining for in me. The more curious I am with questions, the more the more curious I am to to explore and to experiment. I'm hoping that that will catch on, and I'm hoping that that will become the the culture and or at least, um, a practice or a means for, for others because I believe, for discipleship formation, that it is in the curiosity that disciples are made. Last time I checked, um, the 12 came. Nosy, you know, a couple of them came because they trusted Jesus, but a few of them were plus 1 or 2, and they just came to see what was happening. They were curious, and then they got stuck. That's what happened to me. That's what happened to the 12.

Terri: I love that, and I think as a whole, we're maybe not as curious as we could be outside of the church, say nothing about inside of the church. And I think that's that's very well said. And it changes more than what are we going to do with their offering or we're going to tweak worship. It suddenly is how I see people, right? That curiosity gets contagious and kind of becomes a mindset right, of our to the world. So I want to I want to kind of take this one step further and some would say, well, Willis, why do we need more churches? We got plenty. Haven't you seen all the empty buildings or whatever? And I think, um, some might say, can we just re refresh the churches we have? I'd love to hear you talk about why is it important to plant churches, to begin anew, to think differently from the very beginning? Uh, why do we need that in our in our church ecology right now.

Willis: Strangely enough. Um, I don't know if you guys have heard this or not. Everybody ain't saved.

Terri: Is this a secret?

S4: Yeah.

Willis: Everybody ain't. Say. Um, in the most technically advanced, uh, period of of of our existence, we are experiencing the greatest level of biblical illiteracy than we've ever experienced, probably prior to the printing press. And now you can get a Bible, you know, anywhere at the on demand. Now, it's not just about, um, trying to save people, per se, but, um, I say I share it that way because I live again. I emanate from Columbus, Ohio, and we've got, um, uh, we've got, uh, I don't know if, you know, Columbus, Ohio is kind of the test market of restaurants. It's a it's a it's a it's a town that test markets a lot of stuff. And we've got this entrepreneur, this restaurateur, uh, by the name. I should get some hook up. Hopefully this will give me some, uh, some shout out, some, uh, some shout outs, some pub and maybe put me in the front of the line at Butcher and Rolls. Uh, Brother Mitchell, your new your new steakhouse. Uh, want to be on the side for the, uh. Anyway, so Cameron Mitchell is this this phenomenal restaurateur has a number of restaurants, particularly in Columbus and Florida and other places. And, um, since I've been here, I don't know how many restaurants he's opened. He's got more than 100 restaurants. He keeps opening these restaurants. I have nobody ever says, why does Cameron Mitchell keep opening up restaurants? Matter of fact, they're building a McDonald's, a new McDonald's. I haven't seen a new McDonald's brick and mortar in years. Like, I didn't even know they still were building McDonald's. They already sold a billion, but I guess they ain't sold a zillion because you can't never sell a good thing enough. Or in the case of Cameron Mitchell, in his restaurants. I believe, um, there is such an expansiveness around, uh, the marketplace or audience for how people want to engage or experience the culinary options that he has. And he cooks everything from, you know, steaks to Mexican food to to Italian food to whatever. And he gives it at every level. You want it at a four star, want to want to be Michelin level. He's got it. If you want to just be a family pub, you can go down here to the Rusty Bucket and get you some fish and chips and some and a good brew. On that Sunday after church before kickoff. He's got it. I think we have to have that same mentality that there's still more to do. There are many people who have not been met by or their areas of, of location or experience, or their staging and their aesthetic or their palette demands, desires, something more specific to them. And so if we can, why not? Why not make it comfortable? Or why not make it, uh, extravagant or high church or or friendly and and low touch? Why not make it accessible quick and drive through or somewhere where you can come and be very, uh, can be very monastic and and and contained, whatever the case may be, I think there the marketplace and the market experience is never is, is not yet satiated nor saturated. And so I don't think we need to be fearful about, about, um, about church because people in business aren't fearful about starting something new that's already out there. I mean, uh, but I also believe because, um, if you understand it this way, if you only see church from building, if you only see church with in an organized or in a, in a very, uh, linear or limited way, then yeah, you probably say we don't need any more buildings. We don't need any more things that do this or that. But each of us have, uh. I may be struggling here or challenging someone's theology here a little bit, but more and more, we're all little churches. I mean, we and I want to be careful when I say this, though, but the profession of faith or the profession of upon this rock I built a church was not a groundbreaking in a ribbon cutting. It was not an excavating of of of somewhere and laying out and mapping out a physical space. It was more than that. That also invites us to be emblematic of that. Um, the same way that we have we have Scripture and understanding that that tells us that we are we are the embodiment or the enfleshment of the holy, that we are vessels that are, uh, temperate temple like, okay, if you looking from it from that perspective, then you start saying, okay, so what is it that could become something that I could not so much build up and own and control, but where where am I or what expression do I have of faith that I could share and invite others to be a part of, if appropriate? But at the same time, I can also be my expression of faith. And, um, uh, I don't know, I just, I, I'm a little bit more imaginative and maybe crazy and expansive than most people, but.

Terri: I, I love the connection to the restaurants and I, we have a colleague, Scott Kermode, who talks about in in Innovation, the sense of what does it mean to listen for the longings and losses of people's lives and to be messengers of the gospel, to tend to those hurts, to to accompany them through those times, to to bring good news of the gospel. And, and I think our communities are dynamic and the longings and losses of people change. And how are we listening and being curious to what what that is. And so for me, I was wrapping those things that you had said together as as I was thinking about the work he's Invited our students here at Luther into that to take our innovation class and other things that we have used to help us think as we look forward into what does it mean to witness to this beautiful story of the gospel in this time and in this place, with these challenges and these opportunities? Right.

Willis: That's Thurman-esque that sounds like the genuine what's authentic to you? That's why I guess that's why Cameron says authentically Italian, because then other places are not. So I need my other places.

Dwight: Well, I think you are inviting churches to be clear about what their story is, and then to be curious as to how they can connect with their neighbors. Because, you know, we need more churches because so many churches are disconnected from neighbors. And that's actually the wonderful opportunity and aren't.

S5: Curious and.

Dwight: Aren't and sadly, aren't curious. They may be distracted. They may have other things going on, but they're not curious. Yeah.

Terri: Well, Willis, I want to thank you for being with us today. I feel like there's 2 or 3 more episodes we could create, and maybe we'll look down the road to do that, to share more of your insights and wisdom. You have a website, and let me see if I got it right. F Willis johnson.info, is that correct?

Willis: Yeah, I think that still works. All right.

Terri: So yeah, you can go find your books that you've written some more about you at that. We also for those of our listeners that are going to be connected to Luther Seminary, you're going to have some more input to our students here and some work that you're specifically doing around cultivating new Christian communities. So that's exciting for those of us that will be hanging around Saint Paul a bit.

S4: Yes.

Willis: Thank you for the opportunity. I'm excited about it.

Dwight: Well, and thank you also to our audience for joining us on this episode of pivot. To help spread the word about pivot, please like and subscribe. If you're catching us on YouTube or if you're listening, head to Apple Podcasts and leave a review. It really helps.

Terri: Finally, the best compliments you can give us is to share this pivot podcast with a friend. Maybe something Willis said in this resonates with you and you want to share that, so please feel free to do that. So until next time, this is Terri Elton and Dwight Zscheile signing off from another episode of The Pivot podcast. We'll see you next week.

Faith+Lead voiceover: The Pivot Podcast is a production of Luther Seminary's Faith+Lead. Faith+Lead is an ecosystem of theological resources and training designed to equip Christian disciples and leaders to follow God into a faithful future. Learn more at faithlead.org.