This week, Naomi chats with Dawn about living with stressed-out pets during stressful times and the different forms of management that can help find some peace.

Key Moments

[01:39] Cast of characters

[03:17] Background on the existing household pets

[04:35] Odin's backstory - not the dog they were looking for

[06:24] Adding Odin, the reactive puppy, to the family

[08:23] Early management setup

[09:46] The start of the stress

[11:06] Separation anxiety

[12:02] Things that could have been improved

[13:15] The flittering game

[17:40] Safety concerns

[21:08] Ritual conflicts

[22:31] Accidentally reinforcing unwanted behavior

[25:36] Living separately in the same house

[28:00] Medication

[30:33] Less base stress, means easier training

[32:03] Not using food?

[33:46] De-stressing for the humans

[35:46] Enrichment and bonding with each animal

[38:40] Prioritization and triage

[41:31] When the stress got really bad

[44:24] Dawn's advice

[49:14] Positive interactions

Key Links

The PETS Process Guide

Dawn's Instagram: @odin_pup

Hey you cat and dog people, this is It's Training Cats and

Dogs, your source of practical strategies to keep everyone in your

multi-species household, safe and sane.

I'm your host, Naomi Rotenberg and today I'm bringing you one of my chats with

a fellow pet professional about how they've used their expertise to manage

the relationships between their own pets.

I had a blast talking to Dawn who inadvertently added a reactive dog

into a house with two cats who were already kind of iffy with each other.

We talked about the major ups and downs that have happened over their

five-year journey to integration.

I'm happy to say they have made major strides and it was so cool to

talk through everything with her.

I hope you enjoy!

Dawn lives with her husband, their dog and two cats in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

Dawn runs a mobile outpatient therapy clinic where she provides

occupational therapy in the home.

Additionally, she moonlights as a dog trainer with Philly Unleashed and began

her training career once she found her passion for behavior modification

for her work with her reactive dog Odin, who we will talk a lot about.

She learned quickly that the general principles of behavior and

intervention span the species and she was able to use her knowledge as an

occupational therapist to help pets and humans navigate the world easier.

Thank you so much for talking to me, Dawn.

I really look forward to it.

I am so excited to chat with you.

The inter-species between cats and dogs is just like so fascinating.

And so part of our life over here

yeah, let's jump right into it.

I know you've had a lot of things that you've overcome with your pets.

So I guess for me a little bit about their history, what's the cast of characters

and what are they like as individuals?

Oh my gosh.

We have, um, we have a very, very interesting cast of characters and very

large personalities, which I think, you know, we'll chat about more I'm sure.

But that has been part of our process.

So one of the cats is Gulliver.

He's our original monster as I call him lovingly.

I've had him, he's like 13.

Now he has known me and my husband since the beginning of our relationship.

So it's kind of funny because all of our pets sort of mark different milestones

in our, in our relationship together.

So there's Gulliver and he has always been lovingly referred to

as the grumpy cat in every living situation that I have ever been in.

He's the grumpy cat, because he is the epitome of classical cat.

Um, then we have Molly.

Molly came to us probably about four years ago, so she's come = four

years into our relationship.

So she's like around nine.

And she was actually my husband's cat when we were not living together.

So the two cats came together once we got married and moved in together.

And I love her to pieces, but we once had a vet tell us that she may have been

stuck in the birth canal, just a little too long, which 100% explains why she used

to walk into walls when she was a kitten.

She's so cute and she's kinda stupid.

And I just love her.

Like, she's so sweet.

And then we have Oden who we just got about five years ago and I mean, he is

the epitome of reactive dog hot mess.

So those are our three cast of characters trying to live

together under one household.

Yeah.

So you had the original issue of introducing the cats who had been

their own only children for a while.

Yeah.

Gotcha.

It's a lot.

And I will say the cats never fully liked each other either.

I mean, I'm looking at this now 20/20 hindsight, you know, I

didn't quite realize how much they weren't even integrated together.

Again, our grumpy cat Gulliver just kind of tolerated the younger one and

she, she's just kind of like a little dopey that the two of them just kind of

never really um, we're friends either.

I don't want to say that they hated each other, but there was definitely,

there's definitely been like resource guarding with them as well.

And then we added the dog on top of it.

And again, this is all before I was a dog trainer and I'm like, oh

my God, we'll talk about it later.

But there's so many things that I should have done differently.

Yes.

We'll definitely talk about that.

Since you had the two cats who may or may not have been okay with each other, why

did you decide to add Odin into the mix?

Yeah.

We have always wanted a dog.

Um, so Odin came to us when we purchased a house and we had

told ourselves we wouldn't get a dog until we can own a house.

So that, that way we didn't have to worry about the renting and all of

that, because it was really tough, even finding apartments for two cats.

Um, and so we held off, we held off, but me and my husband

always knew we wanted a dog.

So once we got the home, we were like, let's get the dog.

And that's when we just did it.

So when you were looking for Odin, was he a rescue?

Did you get him as a puppy?

So he was a rescue.

He has his own story.

That is just wild.

Um, he came to us sight unseen from Atlanta, Georgia.

We got him in three days later, or five days later, we

went to India for two weeks.

So he actually did all of his decompression with a friend of

ours house sitting in our house, which was completely empty.

We had to like buy her a couch.

'cause this rescue kind of gave us the sob story of, um, it's a kill shelter.

We're really worried.

He's going to get adopted out.

We don't have a foster.

I tried really hard to get them to hold him for two weeks so that when he came

into us, we would actually be home.

And they were like, if you don't come get this dog, now, if we don't send him up in

transport, we're afraid he's going to die.

And we were like, well, we can't let this dog die.

And I'm like, okay, that was number one, mistake.

Uh, we can talk.

But yeah, I mean, he kind of came to us.

He was not the dog we were searching for.

We just kind of really got sucked in with that sob story.

And so that's how we ended up with Odin.

We originally were going to adopt like a 13 year old senior dog as our

first cause we were like, that'll be good with the cats, chill, like, you

know, just kind of give it a nice place to live, fill its life up.

And then we ended up with a 10 month old puppy that we thought was three

to five years old per the rescue.

So there's a lot of issues with Odin.

Yeah.

So you had originally strategized with thinking of the cats...

Correct.

And so you took into account age and energy level.

We tried really hard to correct.

And then it did not happen

And then best laid plans, right?

Yes.

So I was going to say what surprised you about your pets when

they came together but it seems like the whole thing was a surprise.

Everything.

Your cats and Odin were living together from the outset, an

empty house so I'm assuming there wasn't much management going on.

It was a situation with your friend there out of the house.

How did those two weeks go.

So what we, we did end up blocking out that Gulliver had moved

with me multiple places before this.

So Molly, I was never really worried about that's like our dopeye cat.

Gulliver, the original cat was sort of the one he had already lived with dog,

a cat and different dogs in previous living situations before my husband

and I actually moved in together.

So I knew that he could co-exist with an animal.

I just, I knew he was never going to be friends with him.

My expectations were quite low.

So we had started with a baby gate at the top.

We live in a three-story town home.

So it's a finished basement, a middle floor, top floor.

And from the get go, we did have the top floor, our sleeping spaces as no dog zone.

So I'm sorry people listening, but like our dogs not sleeping our bed with us.

He's not even in our bedroom with us.

And that was all because of from the get go.

We had that management routine kind of in place where the

cats had a safe place to go to.

The hard part for us.

So we ended up with the friend who was house sitting for the two weeks.

We told her, just keep the dog in the basement.

Do not even let the cats and the dog interact.

Please don't even try it because I did know enough at that point.

I was more worried about the cat attacking the dog and later

learned, oh, just kidding.

It's the dog we have to deal with first.

Just because of his reactivity that came as well.

So from the get-go we had some management sort of in place.

Okay.

And so your friend didn't run into any issues because they didn't allow for

any interactions with him, correct?

Correct.

She kept him so separate and we lucked out that I had a friend

who was a dog trainer at the time.

So she was guiding a little bit as like a friend, not necessarily

full on trainer at that point.

So we had a little bit of assistance with that, to just know about the

decompression time and, and respect it.

Good.

So the decompression time was two ish weeks while you weren't there.

Did you kind of reset the clock once you did come or did you leap into trying

to introduce them once you came home?

Yeah, so we didn't leap in for sure.

Um, just because I knew of Gulliver's past history and had taken him, you

know, several weeks to get used to these dogs that kind of didn't care about him.

Um, so we didn't jump right into it, but I definitely went too fast.

So we kind of immediately opened up the basement door and let the

dog have access to both floors.

So basement and metal floor still.

And honestly, to this day, we still have the safe zone of upstairs is cat zone.

It will always be cat zone.

If we ever move, we have, we've been looking at houses to have

a Cape like safe cat zone.

So that'll never go away in our household, but I probably shouldn't have let Odin

have as much run of the house as quickly.

Cause we had just moved in to, I mean, we had moved in maybe three

weeks before, so even the cats were still getting used to the house.

I didn't respect that as much as I should have.

Did you run into any issues besides for cat dog stuff once Odin was released?

Um, so I mean, the cats were definitely a lot more stressed out.

Like they weren't yet calm, so they were also fighting with each other, which would

kind of set the dog off a little bit.

Um, so yeah, it was just, we did everything wrong, everything.

So at this point, just for the, you know, initial starting to share space ish.

I'm assuming they didn't have any contact with each other.

At that point they could just hear each other.

Yeah, so it kind of was the gate that was, there was leftover from the

previous residents for their children.

And so the cats kind of had free reign.

They could come and go as they wanted, it was the dog that

we were really regulating.

So we did put them on leash.

If the cats were hanging out a lot, the problem that we had is that the cats and

the dog, all of them were started getting to this point where they really trusted

us as the humans to protect the space.

And so it was either the cats were like, it's fine.

The dogs on the leash or the dog was like, it's fine.

The cats are behind the gate, but we had to manage every second of that

interaction and it was exhausting.

Cause you know, the cats would randomly show up into the kitchen while I was

cooking eggs and I wasn't anticipating it.

Um, and part of that is because the gate, I needed it to be an escape route

because my intention was eventually if the dog was going after the cats, I want

them to have a way to get away from him.

So I needed that gate.

Entrance and exit for them, but it wasn't the right gate because

then they had entrance and exit wherever, whenever they wanted.

And I really, really wish that I could have controlled their entrance

and exit into the rooms better because they flooded the dog system.

They were always there because they always wanted to be near me.

But you know, I wasn't managing it.

Not well

Yeah.

So do you feel like they would have been stressed if they

didn't have access to you?

So, yes, I, and it's funny, you know, I, I kind of saw

it, but I didn't quite realize how much that was gonna play.

A factor in Gulliver has always been my shadow.

I mean, whatever room I'm in, that cat is under my feet and Molly is the same way.

I feel like a Disney princess in the sense that I walk around.

There's always pets around me.

The only problem is all my pets don't like each other.

So it's just chaos behind me.

Um, but they all very, very much need to be with me.

And they all have a little bit of separation anxieties, which I never really

thought cats could get, but I am 100% convinced that that is what my cat has.

So, yeah, that was tough.

So if you could do management differently where there was separation

enough that you could anticipate when their actions will happen.

The flip side of that would be that someone or someones would not be

able to be with you at all times.

Do you have any ideas of how you potentially could have worked on it?

Yeah.

I mean, I definitely wish that I had known about clicker training

and all of that with cats.

Um, before Odin ever came into the picture, I like, I wish I had

prepped them a little bit more.

They now both know place, which is fantastic.

Not necessarily always on command, but context-wise at the antecedent is a

certain way they will run to their place.

So that's fine.

I'm okay with that.

And I wish that I learned that and taught them that quicker.

And I wished that I had implemented a few more gates in the house.

So there's one location.

You know, we have two big rooms and it's like a little, a little hallway.

And then another big room.

I wish that I had let the cats have one of the rooms and Odin had the

other room on that first floor, because then everybody could have seen.

And if for some reason, a gate had fallen, the cats would still have

the fallback of their other secure gate at the top of the stairs.

So I definitely wish I had done some of that.

Yeah.

That makes a lot of sense.

I mean, for some animals, the having the visual, but not being able to get

to the person can be more frustrating, but you have to know your own animals.

You have to test it out.

Some of them are at least happy to know that you're there and just kind

of walking in and out of each space.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Like, I don't know if anybody knows like the flittering game.

Like I almost wish I had played that with my cats a little bit.

Um, just to have them learn that, like, they don't need to follow me

everywhere and they are kind of cats.

Like you're saying they're cool.

As long as they can see me, like now I have all of the cat trees and they're

always at the top on the far end of the room, but they know that they're in the

same space and they're cool with that.

I didn't have enough like cat trees.

I had a bunch of places for them to run to, but I didn't have enough of them.

I underestimated how much space they would need.

Do you want to talk a little bit about that game so we can all play?

Yeah.

Yes.

So the flittering game is really great, especially for dogs.

I feel like they pick it up fast, um, for dogs that just like are kind of under

your feet or for my cats, you sorta you'd go into a room and they're right there.

They're like, what are we doing, mom?

Like, like, tell me what's going on.

And you just kind of fuss around the room.

You just do stuff.

You touch things, you sit down, you, you just kind of hang out until the

dog settles or they cat settles.

And the second they settle, you kind of get up and you move to the next room.

And they're like, oh, where are we going?

How are we doing this?

Like, let's go.

And the idea is that the more you get up and move to the next room, the more

the animal kind of just learns, like, you know what, you're doing your thing.

I'm just, I'm just going to stay here.

Cause they get tired of following you around and your, your purpose.

Kind of doing it in a way where you're like, you don't

need to follow me everywhere.

I'm going to come back to you because I'm just in this other room doing something.

Um, so I wish I had played that game more with all of them.

Got it.

So just getting used to the normal hustle and bustle of.

That's not so exciting anymore.

Exactly.

Like they just don't need to be under your feet.

They don't need to be like anxious that you're not coming back.

That you will.

Everything's cool.

We're just move in.

I'm just putting...

I love that.

...putting some mail away, everything's all right.

Yeah.

And that's a really easy thing for a lot of people to do.

You don't have to worry about clickers or treat, timing, or even

setting anything up necessarily.

It's just actively thinking about what's your daily schedule

and can you like turn that.

To, you know, in speed or intensity a little bit just to get them used to it.

Exactly.

It's, it's really being mindful about using your entrances and exits that timing

matters so that you don't get up and leave and keep moving back and forth too quickly

cause the dog will kind of get anxious and being like, what room are we in?

What's this it's more of like, We go into this room, I'm going to

hang out there for a little bit.

You settle, I'm going to leave.

You're going to get anxious that I'm leaving, but if you just wait a

minute, I'll probably be coming back.

You know?

So it's a very, it's an easy game.

I like to refer to that as many absences sometimes.

So you're not thinking about, I need to leave my dog for 20 minutes because

I need to go do something over here.

It's really just quick in, quick in and outs, getting them used to

settling whether it's on cue or not.

Right?

You're out.

You're talking about them offering the behavior.

Yeah.

Sort of capturing that moment that they do it so that you use it

intentionally to their calm leave.

And then the idea is they're going to get up and follow you.

Eventually you do this with enough rooms over 15 minute time, they're going to

get tired of following you and they're going to be like, bye I'll be here.

That's interesting.

I've never really thought that way.

So I'm gonna see if I can, you know, make a protocol out of that.

It might be really helpful.

Do you have something like that?

So I've seen it.

I wish I remembered the trainer.

It was honestly like one of those Facebook posts that I

saw on like an enrichment site.

And I was like, I love this.

My household, my pets, it worked great.

Like it fit.

I could see how some dogs or cats, it wouldn't, but for like Odin,

especially, it's why I can finally like vacuum without him following me.

And, um, I think it helped with the cats a little bit once I started using

it more intentionally, but not as well as it worked with the dog, I will say.

Yeah.

I mean, every animal is going to respond to different strategies differently.

So when you have multi-species house, it's really important to pinpoint

what works well for each animal.

And hopefully all of your strategies can work together.

Hopefully.

So you talked a little bit about the safety concerns that you ended up having

initially you thought the cats would hurt the dog, but then it flipped.

Can you talk a little bit about how you were feeling and that must've

been really scary and frustrating?

Absolutely.

Um, so for context for people, my dog is an 80 pound Rottweiler

boxer, American Stafford mix.

So he is a very intense animal.

Um, he's got the energy of the Boxer now that he's older, I feel

like that little like plotting along cool Rotty's coming out.

But the American staff terriers in there too, where he's really smart

high energy, go, go, go kind of dog.

And I, he has a really high prey drive.

Really high.

So we've had him for five and a half years.

It is still a thing that we work on because he just wants to chase things.

That's what he was kind of bred to do with some of those breeds.

So I was really kind of amazed at how much and how intensely he wanted to

chase the cats and I, in the beginning before I became a trainer, could never

figure out if it was intention to kill or if it was intention to just play,

because he also was a dog that would go to daycare for like 10 hours a day and

then still come home and want to play, you know, he was just like, I love playing.

Um, and he's always enjoyed smaller dogs, so I wasn't sure, you know,

do you think these cats are dogs or do you think that they're prey?

So once that flip happened and I realized, whoa, Because I brought

them together way too soon.

I was like, you are a lot of dog with these cats.

It doesn't matter if you're trying to play with them, you're going to hurt them.

They're 10 pounds.

You're 80 that's that's ridiculous size difference.

So, yeah, it was really concerning because he was over

threshold all the time with them.

He would see them and it was bolt.

So that's where that management piece became super important.

And I, I still don't think I did enough at the time.

Um, because again, if they showed up, all I would hear was a scuffle behind me.

And all I had done was turned to put the OJ away.

You know what I mean?

Like, and it would just be pandemonium in the house and I would hear hissing

and spitting and I'm like, oh my God.

There was so many times that I was like, I'm going to go in and

find my cat's ripped to pieces.

And then of course I walk in and what's the dog standing in the middle

of the living room, super alert, like way over threshold or the cat sitting

calmly on the stairs, 15 feet away.

But everybody sounds like they're dying.

And I'm like, okay, so now you guys are just being ridiculous.

And so I slowly started to learn that he's over threshold, but he's not

intending to kill them, which is, that was a huge relief off of me because.

I was like, okay, good.

If I do lax, I ha I think I have a little wiggle room in case I can't

catch something in time, but I still was trying really hard to always

catch anything that could happen.

Um, because I didn't know, you know>

So you kind of lucked out in that, in those management

fails, quote unquote that he went after them and no one got hurt.

No one was hurt.

And honestly, they're all just super vocal.

And so it's kind of like the boy who cried Wolf in away, because there

have been times where I hear this big scuffle and I'm like, I've got a minute.

You guys are just being ridiculous again.

I'm like, oh, just kidding.

This is a bad situation.

Those have reduced a lot.

But you know, in the beginning again, when I was figuring all this out.

So it's funny because they're all just extremely loud.

I mean, my cat will swipe at the dog from 10 feet away and Odin will Yelp.

So I'm like, okay, thankfully he's actually a little afraid of the world.

That's part of his reactivity.

Um, and it's just like funny, cause I'm like, okay, now you

guys are just being ridiculous.

Like you're pulling out all the stops and they don't need

to be pulled out right now.

There's a lot of posturing going.

So I think that's really interesting because you know, The

conflict can become ritualized.

Yes.

Do you think that they've kind of come up with those rituals to help each

other cope with each other's presence?

Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, it has gotten to the point where it's not like this

anymore, but even just a year ago.

So even the beginning of the pandemic for us COVID was huge.

It was the thing I needed to kind of finally manage all

of them because I was home.

I had lost my job.

I was starting a new company.

I was home all the time so I could manage them because yeah, it is.

I mean, Odin in the evening, when we go to feed him, the one cat, Molly

comes down to the top of the stairs.

Cause that's her time to start begging for her dinner.

And he has started to kind of like chase her away.

And, and it's to a point where it doesn't matter if she's not there, like if I've

closed the basement door and manage the situation, he still searches for her.

So are still very much these rituals that I almost have suspected that

Odin enjoys the part of it, because he does like to chase and play.

Um, where he's like cat run and I'm like, no cat don't run.

I actually accidentally trained him at one point to chase the cats

because I was trying to use, look at that and all that stuff wrong.

And I was like, this is this, this is a disaster.

Oh my gosh.

So tell me a little more about that.

Oh my gosh.

I, it was, have you ever heard of that, that story of like the

dolphin who trained the trainer?

Oh, my God.

So Odin did the same thing.

So there was this dolphin that would, you know, do a trick, take

a treat and part of the trick was like to go down to the bottom,

retrieve something and bring it back.

And so the dolphin was smart enough to like break that thing in half and it

would leak purposely like leave half of it down on the bottom of the pool.

Go up, take a piece, get a treat, go down, get the second piece that

it had broken up to get another.

And so Odin, I would capture him when he was not chasing the cats or when he

would stop chasing the cats or whatever.

And so he would start to chase the cats to stop himself, to get the tree.

And it took me a long time to realize that that was why he was

chasing the cats now is because he was waiting for me to tell him that.

So he's turned it into a parlor trick.

Yes.

And I was like, you genius.

You're so smart.

How do I untrain this?

Did you figure out a way to do that?

I mean, for him, I ended up just not using treats

around him or the cats at all.

It became just praise.

Um, I had to remove food because all of them are very food motivated

and so they would all flood each other systems when I would start

to bring food out for any of them.

So, yeah, it kind of just got to a point where we worked odin's stay

with distractions and his go to bed.

And so it became very much, the cats came into the room, you go to your bed and

you will only get treats from your bed.

You never get it anywhere else.

You chase them.

You have to go back to your bed, then you have to stay, then you'll get a treat.

So I had to kind of implement a little bit of that.

Like, you don't get a treat unless you work for.

But I don't believe that animals should have to work for love.

You know what I mean?

But it was very much a, we have to have this antecedent of cat

and room you in bed always.

And so that was kind of how we managed that.

Instead we took the movement out of it.

I like that a lot.

So you tried using cookies, which I'm assuming you would then have cats try

to get in on the training session, which makes them too close, which puts him over

threshold, which makes everything worse.

Yes, chase, which then I would call back and then he would yell.

So you kind of accidentally train this behavior chain.

Um, Quote, unquote, do bad thing.

Chase cat, go do good thing.

Go lay on bed, get treated.

Everyone does that.

It's really hard not to, unless you can catch the behavior

before it starts every time.

Exactly.

And that's where, again, my poor management at that time

in our story was part of it.

If I had just managed it better, I don't think we ever would have had the problem.

He never would have figured out that chasing the cats was an

opportunity to get redirected.

Exactly.

Cause I should have just never and that's honestly we train hishas prey drive now.

So I'm grateful for it in the sense that I learned it.

I learned at a relatively, okay, lucky, safe situation in the house

to implement that outside too.

I mean, he is just not allowed to chase squirrels.

Like he cannot for anybody watching the Premack principle where like

you do something for me, you can go do the thing you want to do that

does not exist in our household because of the dog's personality.

And.

I kind of thank the cats for that and the way, because I just had to make it

that he couldn't interact with them ever.

And then he learned to like, just ignore them.

So now we're great.

Like there, the household is amazing.

It's calm and quiet now, but it took a really took almost three and a half,

four years for us to figure that out.

So did you have a different goal at the beginning for them to be

able to interact calmly and then you decided, you know what they need to

just live separately in the same space?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, originally my expectations again were not super high.

I was just kind of hoping that they could co-exist in the same space.

They never needed to be friends.

I never anticipated them like sleeping together.

They will never cuddle.

Like that is fine with me one day.

I want that.

But then with this group you'd have pets it was never a thing.

I go, I have a goal of mine.

Um, but yeah, at some point, even that lower expectation, just because

okay I just need the cats to exist safely upstairs, and I need the

dog to exist safely downstairs.

And then if that middle floor they interact, I need them

to just not kill each other.

Like I need the cat to not chase the dog and I need the dogs stop chasing the cat.

So it became like everything in our house was very calm.

And if the dog was showing signs of going over threshold and I honestly

would bring the cats up and that's when I started implementing more management,

they would get locked in a room.

Sorry guys, you can't come down because I needed them to not be there.

You know?

That's tough.

So have you relaxed that management since then?

What's the new situation?

So the new situation is what I originally wanted.

They all kind of sleep in the same room I'm in.

And this morning I was so excited.

Gulliver again, the cat that sees the dog and hisses at him, um, just like,

it doesn't even matter where the dog is.

The cat will just immediately hiss and that used to get old

and really anxious and nervous and excited and over threshold.

And this morning, you know, Odom was eating a bone even, and he just

like looked at the cat, like shut up dude, and went right back to eating.

And I was like, yes, it's so great.

I mean, I think that's really the goal you talked about antecedents

and context being so important that the only way for your animals to coexist

without you needing to micromanage them is to make it clear to them that

the behaviors of the other animals are cues for them to do x something now.

Yeah.

And I do want to add in at this point, both huge hurdles that we made

through the cat and dog management, um, there is chemicals involved.

Odin's on fluoxetine.

And so as Gulliver, I had no idea that both of their behavior issues,

whereas linked to the anxiety that they were having Gulliver, I think

because I had the dog and the reactive dog took so much of our time.

I actually think he started developing.

Really bad anxiety, separation anxiety from.

Um, is what I suspect.

And honestly, he was losing his hair.

He had completely lost everything on his belly.

He wasn't grooming himself again.

He's 13.

So I was like, is this diabetes?

Does he have kidney issues?

You know, that that's giving him steroids.

And then we finally realized like, no, this is anxiety.

And it has to do with the dog, whether it's being away from me.

Or because the dog and him aren't getting along, I'm not really sure,

but either way, um, the final push was medication for both of them.

Did you have feelings about that?

That he was stressed to the point that he needed meds?

You know, I it's funny because the dog I had absolutely

no problem putting on meds.

Once I finally realized that he needed them.

Odin has been on them for, I guess we put them on about

three years after getting him.

So Odin's been on it for about two, two and a half years, and

I had never considered the cat.

Um, it took a while until after like the first dose of steroids and

their suspicion that it was like an allergy attack causing him to like

over lick himself for me to realize.

Actually now that I know a lot more about reactivity, I think my cat's reactive.

I'm like, I don't know that that's a thing.

And to be perfectly honest, I have never researched it, but the same stuff

that Odin was doing, the cat was doing.

As well, and he had always been that way.

That's why people called him a grumpy cat.

So it was just very interesting because I had to seek a vet out

that was actually willing to listen to me that it was anxiety.

My original vet was like, no it's allergies.

And I was like, we're gonna, we're going to go to a fear-free vet and

we're going to see what they say.

And that was finally the first vet who listened.

And so I was happy to put them on fluoxetine.

The second.

I could, I was like, yo, take your pill.

Better living through chemistry.

It kinda is.

And he was so miserable and I, I really thought it was originally the dog piece,

but I really think he had separation anxiety away from me because the dog and

the other cat took away so much time.

It was hard.

Well, I'm glad that you found that out okay where you found

something that works for everyone.

Yeah.

And so it's so much nicer.

I can actually like cook dinner now without pandemonium and chaos.

Such a wonderful goal to have reached.

Oh my gosh.

It is.

And I will say we've, uh, we started place training and that was the next final push.

So once everybody was on meds and everybody could hear the world.

And there wasn't so much static of anxiety happening in their brains.

We have started to be able to implement a few more food related trainings

without them all flooding each other.

So they're, they're learning their name and waiting for their name, for a treat.

And now the antecedent has come in where if we're sitting, eating, or

cooking the cats and the dog run to their space, and then I will just

intermittently throw a tree down.

Um, to kind of keep them there.

So it's been helpful.

That's great.

Yeah.

I mean, if you're finding that training is just not coming on board, the animals

are way over threshold, then it's important to investigate the medical side

so that they might actually be able to learn what you're trying to teach them.

Absolutely.

And I will say that that's where being an OT helped a lot.

Behaviors behavior.

So I deal with some of these same sort of reactions and these over explosions.

And, you know, my patients who have traumatic brain injuries and to see

kind of the dog and the cat doing the same thing, it was like, you

know what, you, you scaffold things.

So we call it scaffolding in OT.

It's shaping in dog training, you know, where you catch that little

moment that was good and then you kind of increase the, the expectations

and you know, things like that.

I mean, we do that in therapy too.

So it was really fascinating.

And, and a lot of my patients in real life, they don't do better until

they're on some chemical assistance.

And so for me, if your dog or cat needs it, even if it's a short

time, I'm all about it, go for it.

So you mentioned moving away from food, at least for a period of time.

And that praise was your main motivator for everybody.

Yes.

How did you figure that out?

That that would work?

I think, again, it comes down to that, like, everybody's

just like a little attached to me.

Um, and I have always felt that I was one of the resources and triggers

because my husband could be in a room with a dog and cat, and it was

a very different energy than when I'm in the room with a dog and a cat.

Um, so I think I became a resource, so.

Giving them attention was sort of enough praise for them.

And I, it was me figuring out that I'm a resource that they're guarding.

And that was the biggest issue came from when I was giving

the dog too much attention.

Or if I was giving the cat too much attention, the other animal species would

kind of come in to either also be like, I would like it, but I'm afraid of the

other one or they'd be like, yo, get away.

I want the attention now.

So that's very interesting.

Did it cause any tension between you and your husband, that there was such

a difference constellation of behaviors that would happen between the two of you?

I was exhausted because, you know, I would look at him and be jealous because

I'm like, why do you get the compacts?

Like why does it when I come in everything's wild and I I'm tired,

you know, like even now I come in and it's just got to say hi to the dog.

First, got to say hi to.

Then I can say hi to the husband.

So even he's sometimes like, oh, I'm always third on the list.

And I'm like, oh my God, I love you so much, but it's just, everybody

needs everything, you know?

So it still sometimes does cause the pets, they don't know how to wait.

They don't have that concept, you know?

You have English that I can explain to you why I'm doing

Exactly.

And they're just like, mom's here.

Yeah.

A lot of what I talk to my clients about is the emotional

side of it for the humans.

Um, you know how stressful it is, how it can be that your house is not a place

to relax for either you or your animals.

And that can really take a toll on.

And so did you have ways to help yourself through those moments of frustration?

So we would try.

I mean, a lot of it came from just removing the pets from each other.

Cause even that would just like bring me to a state of calm that I could exist.

Sometimes I would send Odin off to daycare just so I could spend

an afternoon with the cats.

I know that's wild, but I did.

And then on top of it, you know, I cycle, I ride my bike.

I would use my hikes with Odin as a way to kind of calm down because

anytime the animals were away from each other, it was instantly calmer.

And so then you can actually breathe and relax.

Um, but I, for awhile there, it was really tough.

No, I didn't, I didn't take care of myself the way I should have.

So I love that you are teaching people.

And encouraging that self care.

I think that's really, really important.

And I, I didn't, and it affected my mental state a lot.

I mean, they did not help a depression period that I was

having during that time too.

Cause it was just constant constant stimulation.

Yeah.

These things are not sprints.

They're usually marathons.

So if you can't rest at all in there, you're going to collapse.

Absolutely.

And then on top of it, you know, Gulliver was waking me up every two hours for, I

look back on it for almost seven years because he had anxiety before the dog even

showed up and I'm like, Cat, I'm so sorry.

I feel like I was such a bad pet owner to him.

He probably should've been on meds a long time ago, but he

used to just Meow all night too.

And then daytime was stressful and the nighttime was stressful.

We're good now, but I feel so bad.

It took me so long to realize that he was that stressed.

Well, you're doing every day, the best that you can.

Yeah, that's true.

Thank you.

I was, I'm going to follow up on your hikes with Odin.

Um, so that's obviously a great enrichment opportunity for

you and him to do together.

What other things.

Do you do with each animal for enrichment and bonding?

Yeah.

So Odin, I won't lie.

He gets 90% of my attention.

Again, it's sort of the size and sort of how explosive some

of his reactivity used to be.

It's much better now, but in my head he always has that potential to go back.

So.

For him.

I mean, we've done trick training.

We did agility.

We do hiking.

We do all the enrichment, whether it's the snuffling, the ripping, you know,

the tearing, the, the sniff outs.

I mean, Odin love him to pieces.

He knows like everything.

Um, the cats have been harder to fit in and I feel really guilty

because there will be some weeks where I'm really, really good about

giving each cat, you know, 10 to 15 minutes of undivided attention.

Um, and some weeks being a small business owner, they just don't get anything,

but when I'm sleeping and they get to sleep next to me, um, so I feel

bad because they're definitely second priority when it comes to enrichment.

But I've grown catnip for them.

And I let the one cat outside, Molly gets a little afraid outdoors, Gulliver.

We have a six foot privacy fence.

We just got it redone and reinforced with the intention of letting him go out more.

Cause he, he did manage to escape over one portion of the fence that

was only like two and a half feet tall because of like retaining walls.

Um, so we fixed that.

So I sometimes do let him outdoors just because he loves to kind of

hunt and Sundays and do all that.

And um, that really.

But sometimes increases his anxiety when I can't let him outside.

So it's interesting.

Trade-off there's always going to be a trade-off.

Yeah.

Enrichment is really interesting because you want the cat to do cat things and

you want the dog to do dog things, but because you're still controlling when

they have access to those things, if you aren't able to give it to them,

there might be some frustration.

Absolutely.

And there is, and it'll sometimes be, you know, Odin's bouncing off the walls,

needs energy release, and that's the same time that the cats like come pet me, mom.

And then those will be if we're having explosive or interactions or bad, um,

bad Juju together, it'll be during those moments where each species is kind of

like you and only you mom, sometimes my husband, it doesn't matter what he tries.

They don't want him and they will not accept anything from him.

It has to be me.

So if they're both trying to beg for it, it's like, what do I do?

So what do you usually do?

I mean, usually the dog takes prescidence.

I feel really bad, but just because of the size I have to, and then the poor cats.

So I'll try and toss the treat or, you know, food up for them

up at the top of the stairs.

But yeah, usually I'll take the dog to the basement closed basement

door and be like, sorry, guys, you have to figure it out for a minute.

Prioritization and triage is not something to be ashamed of.

It happens all the time.

And it usually is.

I like to think of it as the quote unquote troublemaker, right?

It's always going to be that animal that you try to work on first, whether it's

unclear, who you're supposed to, you know, address, just so that you can make sure

that as much of the percentage of the problem can be reduced quickly so that

you can then follow up with the others.

Exactly.

It's the only thing you can do.

You can't be in three places at once.

Would it be great if we could, though,

I was actually just talking to my daughter about that and she had.

Uh, a little pool party opportunities, two of them a few days ago.

And I said, you have to choose one.

You can't be in two parties at once.

I know it's fine.

So popular.

You have to pick one.

Yeah.

You got to learn it early.

Now my God, wouldn't it be nice.

Or like, this is where like millennial me comes out the Harry

Potter a little time Turner thing.

And like, even that would be okay.

Yeah, definitely.

I was going to say that scifi should come into play here sometimes.

Yeah.

It would be great.

Great.

Totally.

You mess with time.

Oh man.

Hasn't that book, title?

Anything?

Are we going to go down the Harry Potter rabbit hole?

I love it so much.

Oh no, that's a totally separate episode.

Um, maybe we'll do a little bonus nerding out about Harry Potter.

Um, so you mentioned the skills that you're now teaching your cat.

And that Odin knows a lot of stuff.

And I'm assuming, because you're a trainer, they know more than most animals

might know, but which of the behaviors have you realized have been the most

useful for the cat dog integration?

I think place.

And just like distracted stays where it doesn't matter.

What's happening.

You just keep your cool has been the biggest thing, because again,

through this whole thing, it's, it's all been about the energy levels.

If the energy levels are up, we are going to have an explosion.

If energy levels are calm, everybody co-exists really, really well.

So.

When all the animals are in the same room, we try really hard to

either all be laying down, chill, sitting, all that kind of stuff.

And if anybody starts to play, the other animal gets removed and

the animals that are playing can play, but that's it, you know?

So if the cat start to tumble together, Odin leaves, we get him

out because he cannot handle that.

So even at this point, he struggles with that a little bit.

Cause I think he wants to jump in on it.

Um, but he's a little terrified still the orange cat of Gulliver,

our first one, but yeah.

So calm place, stay.

Those have been are our big ones important.

So, because this has been a long process for you, was there

kind of a rock bottom where you were like, I need to rehome this

dog or I'm just unable to handle it.

Yeah.

I mean, I would say it actually hit at the beginning of the pandemic, mostly because

again, I said earlier, the pandemic was the best thing that happened to us.

And it was also kind of the worst of it at one point, I mean, Gulliver's

anxiety started to increase and Odin had made a lot of progress, but he

was still like chasing squirrels.

At one point, I thought I was going to have to get hand surgery

because he had bolted on something.

And so I was like our walks aren't.

I lost my job.

I don't know about money, income, my nights.

I'm not getting sleep it's every two hours and this has been going

on again for like seven years.

So I just finally hit that point where I was like, I can't function.

And I was really, really kind of grateful not to have a job because

there were days where I would have to take a three hour nap in the afternoon.

Cause I was just after three years of dealing with their drama, not getting

sleep and then a pandemic on top of it.

That was our low point.

And then.

I won't lie in December of what, 2020, we were going to the vet.

We were going every week.

I was trying to figure out why is my cat looking terrible?

Like, he looks like he's skinny.

I thought we were going to have to put him down because I, this is not the fun

stuff, but this is where me and my husband were kind of having that really tough

decision where he was like, listen, If the cat is keeping you up and affecting

your health, like I was going to get labs.

My thyroid was acting up.

I was like having a lot of medical issues for not sleeping.

Um, he was like, at what point do you let the cat's life impact your, this much?

He's like, when do we let him go?

And I was like, oh God, you know, it's my cat.

He's my original guy.

I can't, I can't.

Um, and that's where I'm really, really grateful that we figured out

the behavior medications, because the second he was on fluoxetine for three

weeks, the entire household changed.

And I was like, thank God we didn't, but I, I wouldn't have judged anybody

who would've made that decision at that point, because I was at my rock bottom,

December of 2020 with the test for sure.

You were dealing with so, so much.

So it sounds like getting Gulliver on fluoxetine was when you finally

were like, okay, there might be a light at the end of this tunnel.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And then for the last eight months, it's just.

So much better.

And that's one of the things that I have had to tell people too, when they're

like, oh my pets, aren't getting together.

I'm like just, you know, it took me five years to figure it out five years.

And I tried to give them the best life in between.

And here's the information I learned, but it's like, it took five

years for us to figure this out.

Yeah, that's a really good thing for people to realize it takes time

And, and, and it, it could have been faster if we had managed better.

And I think that if I had considered behavior medications quicker.

I was going to say, so what advice do you have for people who are struggling?

I think getting someone involved who's like, I wish you had, I wish I

had known you three years ago because I probably would have hired you for several

sessions to help me figure this out.

So get a trainer, I think would be awesome.

And then also don't be afraid of some of those management techniques.

They feel like an easy way out, but I think that they're super helpful

and don't be afraid to use behavioral medications, even if it's just for a short

time, as long as the vet is on board.

So.

I would say, make sure you find the right vet for us.

It was a fear-free vet who specializes in behavior was finally able to

give us the answers we needed.

My regular vet has been great for everything else, but when it became to

behavior, they were not the fit for us.

Um, so finding the correct vet would be really helpful.

It's really, really important.

I would venture to say that not all trainers know about

both cat and dog behavior.

For sure.

You're, you're in this amazing niche that anybody who has dogs and cats should be

contacting you because honestly, like, I mean, I tried to use what I could, that

I knew about Odin when I started training with my cats and it wasn't the same thing.

And that's why it took us five years.

I mean some definitely translate but they are different

species with different motivations.

Exactly.

So it's really important to think about them as both individuals and having

the species predilections that they have.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You said it great.

I don't have to add there.

So we talked about people who are already struggling with their animals.

Wonderful advice.

I'm going to write that down.

Plastered everywhere.

But do you have advice for people who are thinking about adding another species

to their already established home?

Like how should they go about?

Yeah, I mean, I would say flat out really consider energy levels and

don't fall for the sob story for the species that you don't really want.

So like, don't do what I did in a sense that I didn't consider the new dogs

behaviors enough because I got rapid.

With the sob story.

I really should've stuck to my guns and been like, I'm really sorry

that's happening with that dog.

You know, I'll reach out to my networks to see if there's a foster

appear, but I can't accept that one.

Please tell me when you have an older dog, because I really truly believe

our household would have been calm if I had stuck to my guns and really

stuck to the behaviors and the energy levels that I had originally planned on.

Um, so I would tell people just like, don't, don't give into that.

If you know, what kind of pet you want, wait for the right pack.

Yeah.

And you know, some people might not know which is the right pet to

be looking for, but there are many resources that you can look for.

Trainers are really good option because they've seen a lot

of different combinations.

I think just asking for some advice would be really helpful for people because

trainers - and you can tell me whether you think this too - we like to come

into homes where there hasn't been, you know, rash decisions being made.

It's nice to have someone who's anticipated issues before they

came up, rather than just trying to fix what has come about.

Yes, I agree.

And, and I would tell people too, like, it doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter what animal you bring in there is going to need

to be training and management.

I don't care how perfect those petss are and you're going to need it.

And so expect it.

And that helps.

We didn't anticipate it at all.

Cause I knew nothing.

And I was an idiot.

Don't do that.

It's so true.

Right?

I mean, even, yes, even if they're perfect angels and they magically just

come together, even just training and management for enrichment purposes

or for just de-stressing like every animal needs a spa or a safe

spot, even if they love each other.

Yeah.

Yup.

I mean, we'll think about like, if your friend came over and stayed with

you for two weeks, you're going to be like so excited the first few days.

And at some point you're going to look at them and be like, you know,

what do you just want to like go to that room and read a book and.

I just need a couple minutes alone.

Like it happens with humans too.

So pets are the same way.

And I will say for me, like I had two cat trees because each cat got a cat tree.

Well, now I have six cat trees and that works so much better.

So whatever you think you need, you're probably going to need double that.

That's wonderful.

I think that's really true, right.

We think about like that one resource that each animal has, but if they have choices,

then their lives are so much better.

Just like we don't want to always be reading the same book every day.

It's so, so I guess my last question before we just kind of go into a general

wrap-up would be now that everyone's getting along pretty well, has there

been a recent interaction that was either really surprising from them or

funny or something that you wouldn't have expected that they'd be able to.

Yeah, this literally just happened two days ago.

I was me and Odin.

Didn't have this morning routine where, you know, I make a smoothie, we sit on the

couch together and he kind of just like cuddles next to and gets his little sleep.

And the cats are usually kind of in and out.

You know, Gulliver is usually trying to find out if he can get out to the

basement door, Molly is just kinda Molly and just wants to be around.

And so Gulliver got, I mean, Odin had gotten off the couch, laid on

the ground and Gulliver was doing one of his pass throughs and.

Odin was head fully down body, completely on his side eyes bag,

Gulliver came over and like sniffed his front Paul and nobody freaked out.

And I was like, Like wholly, they actually touched each other and sniffed.

I mean, this is from a dog and a cat who they can exist right now,

five feet away from each other.

And that's the closest they had ever gotten.

And Gulliver willingly went over and sniffed Odin and Odin

just was like, don't worry.

And you did it and it was cool.

They just left.

And I was like, oh, it's happened.

Oh God, I'm going to go eat some ice cream award for that

Positively reinforce yourself.

That's awesome.

Yeah, it was great.

It was great.

And lately Odin has just been like gently going up and sniffing

Molly's butt and she's cool with it.

She just kind of hangs there and let them do it.

And I'm like, this is amazing.

Amazing.

Oh, it's so good.

And I think, um, at one point, you and I had chatted, we

had a Groundhog in our backyard and Odin was like pure hunt mode.

I was really grateful he did not translate any of that onto the cats.

I mean, he was outside searching for the Groundhog.

I mean, he would've killed it if he could have found it.

And he came right in and immediately, it was just like, oh, Hey guys, what's

up and just walked right by them.

And I was like, oh, thank God.

Amazing.

I'm so happy for you.

Changes everything.

It's amazing how the boundaries of your walls of your house

can make a huge difference.

Like the cats, I get this question all the time.

Like my dog hates the stray cats that live on our street.

Can he live with other cats?

It's like, well, there could be issues.

Definitely.

But you don't trust the strangers on the street nearly as much as

you trust the people you live with.

Right.

That's a good way to put it.

So before we wrap up, do you have anything we haven't been

able to talk about that you just want to kind of put out there?

You know, not off the top of my head.

I think I'm okay.

I think we covered like so much.

We really did.

It was awesome.

Yeah,

no, I mean, I would just tell people.

It's just like, go slow, you know, whenever you think you're gonna

need, you're gonna need double.

And if you think that you've taken enough time, just take more time, you know,

before you make a decision before you introduce them, it doesn't really matter.

Just, just go slow, everybody.

We always want to rush it.

Yeah.

We want to see results and we want to receive them quick and

we freak out if it doesn't go well.

We do.

And you know, I think the key is to remember they, especially, if

you're bringing in like a puppy and a kitten or anything, they have their

entire life to build a relationship.

Why are we rushing it in the first six months?

You know what I mean?

I did the same thing.

I get it.

Totally.

I think that's a perfect way to end.

Thank you so so much, Dawn.

I really appreciate it.

Um, if anyone wants to get in touch with you.

To ask any more specific questions.

Is there a good way to get ahold of you?

Yeah.

You could follow me on Instagram at Odin's account, which is

kind of Odin in the cats.

So it's O D I N underscore P U P.

So odin_pup, and reach out.

Follow us.

Thank you so much.

They're awesome to follow by the way.

I've seen really great improvement just while I've been following their Instagram.

So I encourage everyone to do that.

Thanks, Naomi.

It was so fun to chat with you.

All right.

Thank you.

Bye.

Thanks so much for listening.

If this episode helped you feel less alone in your struggles with your cats and dogs,

please rate, review, and subscribe to the podcast on your favorite podcast app.

You can also follow me on Instagram @praiseworthypets.

I'd love to hear your suggestions for who I should interview next.

And if your pets aren't getting along and you don't know where to start, go

download my free PETS process guide a helpful step-by-step explanation of the

process that I use with my own clients.

When helping them through their coexistence journey.

You can get access to the guide by going to praiseworthypets.com/guide.

That's all for this episode, you wonderful cat and dog people see you next week