Do you ever feel like you’re too many things at once – curious about everything, yet unsure how it all fits together?

In this episode, I sit down with writer, speaker, and community-builder Charlie Rogers, whose upcoming book Undefinable Life Design offers a much-needed framework for those of us who resist being put in a box.

Charlie shares:

• What it means to live “intentionally beyond conventional labels”
• His framework forundefinable life design
• The power of embracing a semi-professional approach to your many interests
• How to identify your Golden Thread – the through-line that connects everything you love
• The emotional (and practical) work of leaving identities behind
• His wild ultra-marathon and what it taught him about self-trust
• The values that define his community of “undefinables”

Whether you’re a creative generalist, a multi-hyphenate, or just someone with 96 browser tabs open at once, this conversation is your permission to stop choosing and start integrating.

🔗 Resources & Mentions:

• Charlie’s newsletter & updates on his upcoming book
• The Portfolio Collective – where we first connected
• Charlie's LinkedIn
• Website: Undefinable Life Design

Want to be a guest on Stories for the future: Beyond the Bubble? Send Veslemoy Klavenes-Berge a message on PodMatch.

You can always find more information about the podcast and my work on storiesforthefuture.com and vklavenes.substack.com

Mentioned in this episode:

Thanks to Creative Space for supporting this episode! Visit getcreativespace.com

Hello and welcome back to Stories for the Future.

I have to say that this episode is quite special.

My guest is Charlie Rogers and from the very first one on one conversation we had many years ago now, I felt that he was actually reading my mind.

And you will probably hear me say that many times during this conversation.

Charlie is a writer, speaker and guide for what he calls the undefinables, the multi passionate, label, resistant.

People who feel like they've got 96 tabs open at all times, both in their browser and in life in general.

That's me.

If you were wondering.

His upcoming book, Undefinable Life Design is not just a fantastic framework for me, it's a gift and it's kind of a permission to not having to choose one thing.

I can actually have many interests and it is a reason why I cringe every time someone tells me to niche down and focus on only one area.

But it is really valuable to have a framework, some kind of system, or else it can get really messy and chaotic.

And this is what you will learn about today.

I am so certain that you will enjoy this conversation and especially if you feel at home when I say undefinable, multi passionate.

All the tabs open, you know what I mean?

So please enjoy.

Here is Charlie Rogers.

Charlie, welcome to Stories for the Future.

Thank you, Bethlehem.

Great to be here.

I have been looking so much forward to this and I tried to count the years, I couldn't really figure out when.

But I've known about you and known you since I joined the portfolio Collective.

I think maybe it's three or four years ago.

So this is a network for portfolio professionals based out of London where you have worked as well.

Yeah, but at.

Yeah, so we'll get back to that.

But at some point we had a zoom call and I also started reading a lot of what you were writing and like talking about on LinkedIn and Substack and so very well by the way.

But you have so many things that you talk about that sometimes it feels like you're reading my mind.

And I think it has to do with this having many interests and resisting to be put a label on.

So that is kind of what hits me like it's bullseye every time almost that you write something.

But before we go on to that and all the questions I have about your undefinable path, I have to get something out of the way.

I haven't asked you this before we started.

Now you just ran this crazy long distance and I'm asking this as just a blown away observer but also as a runner myself.

113 kilometers, is that right?

I was looking at my, my, my own Strava account.

You know, I think I have like a maximum 60 meters of elevation in my runs.

I just can't imagine that.

So first of all, have you recovered and how was it?

Yeah, I mean, it was quite a wild experience, both in the sense of overcoming the challenge of, yes, the training beforehand, but also the way I approach the race.

I think our effect on that and what I shared online, but what I really felt was that I showed up as a emotionally integrated self.

So I was able to take rests and pause in ways that in previous races I would have just pushed through.

So I felt that that was a real big growth opportunity and demonstrated that change and work I've done outside of that.

And there was some big, like highlight moments of like 88k in.

There's one big hill left and I've got to decide like if I'm going to wait there for an hour or bit before I go again.

And this guy's telling me the medic is saying that I push myself too hard and I've got my, like, my lungs, I'm finding it hard to breathe.

And so they say, yeah, you should just chill for a bit.

And so I sit there for like an hour and 15 with my support team and just literally, can I get my breath back, refresh on all the electrolytes, all the food and then on my head torch and go for my first night run up the hill.

It's my first time doing it as well.

So, yeah, that blend of ability to stop, but also that again, that I felt was a really great growth opportunity.

And then since then, the first week last week, I didn't appreciate how much of a recovery would be required.

I've done marathons before, I've done an Iron man before, but this was like a deeper level of tiredness where you just kind of want to nap and you don't really want to think super clearly on everything.

And that was a week where I've actually just moved back to London as of like Monday.

So I had quite a lot of change last week as well.

And that was something that I didn't really expect and didn't participate predict.

But next time I do an ultra, there will be next time.

Hopefully it will.

Okay, yeah, I will take a week off afterwards.

I feel refreshed now and I feel good.

I tried to run yesterday and my body's still like probably fast, but I feel generally if I'm not doing sport, I'm like back in the game.

But if I do sport, I probably still feel quite tired.

Yeah.

It'S interesting and we will get back to this, this side of you, I think, during the conversation.

But I want to start with this because earlier in my podcast, like the earlier seasons at least, I always started with this question, where are you based and what do you do?

And I thought that was very funny with you.

You can take the first part, but I have the feeling that the second part will be not as simple in your case.

So how do you usually respond when someone asks this?

So what do you do?

Yeah, I'll take the first one first.

So where do I live is or where do I based from?

Is kind of a changing, evolving thing right now.

So since the end of last year, sort of handed in my notice my previous role and decided to go all in on undefinable life design, which I'll explain and how I introduced myself.

And that meant that I decided why not write a book in a foreign country that's a bit warmer.

So I went to Valencia for two months and then Ben and Cassim up the beach for a month.

So all in Spain, January through March, and then for a couple of months being in the countryside in Shropshire throughout April and May.

And then as of now, I've just moved back to London with a friend for a couple of months where I sought out a bit more of a long term place as well.

So my home situation is definitely changing.

I'd say home for me is a combination of the people.

Of course, it's more important to me than necessarily the location.

I think being in Spain reminded me of that.

So even if it's sunny during the middle of January, actually being around people and connections is actually equal if not more important.

And so being back here in London now, I feel the ease, the ability to be resettled even though I've literally just moved.

So that's super nice and looking forward to finding a bit more of a long term solution soon as well.

But the dreaded question of so what you do?

That was actually the name of my newsletter beforehand, so.

And I did kind of approach that head on as a question, should we say?

And my previous answer, which I think is probably relatable to people in a similar situation of being undefinable was many things.

And then they go, oh, that's curious, tell me more.

So you invite follow up question and then you have to sort of gauge how long the person has, do you have like 10 seconds?

Do you have like a minute?

Like how long have they got to chat?

But now what I lead with is I say I speak from purpose rather than from labels.

And so I help those who intentionally live beyond conventional labels, who I call undefinables, to design their life for uniqueness.

And I do that in several ways.

I am founder of a nonprofit community, 39 paying members based out of London.

People in the age of discovery.

So 22 to 35, we will come together, do retreats, do meetups, do explorations and all the like.

In between.

I also coach people on how to design their lives too, particularly if they're going from the age discovery into the age of commitments where life's getting a bit serious.

They're thinking about families, thinking about settling down, helping them make some long term decisions that are aligned with who they are as well.

And then throughout that learning that I've made of both the individual and how to guide them, written a book called Undefinable Life Design.

You can probably see a theme here, and that is something that I'm on the second draft of right now and bringing to the world and have enjoyed the process of so far.

And I'm starting to get some good consistent feedback on its structure and how it flows.

So that's cool.

And then I also do some public speaking, some workshops, some writing.

And what I mapped out most recently that I'm really excited for, what I think it's all building towards is a future kind of hybrid in person, virtual cohort where I can bring my skills of dissertation with the learning that I've written the book.

And I feel like that would be a really powerful group experience for people to go through in a small way as well.

But that's, I guess, the future.

And yeah, each day gets me a bit closer to that as I try and blend in the workshops I'd maybe do for corporates or the educations institutions as well.

It's all towards that vision of how do I build this amazing cohort?

That's really valuable.

And a book that spreads the message and the word to people that want to do it themselves as well.

Yes.

So you are writing this book as we speak.

And I'm so lucky to be able to have a sneak peek.

And it's again, I have to say it feels like you're reading my mind and I'm taking a long time because I have to kind of think and compare it to what I am doing and it's so, so useful.

But I think we have to start with this word undefinable, what does it mean to be undefinable?

So in a nice definition, we'll call it a define the undefinable, which is quite ironic, I know.

And intentionally living beyond conventional labels is how I've tried to summarize the undefinable.

But there are many elements to it as well.

Practically, how that means is that you might answer that question of so what you do with several things, but you also see yourself as able to evolve past labels as well.

So.

So you're not stuck in identity.

You're not thinking of yourself as, I don't know, a gym bro or a finance guy or whatever other labels that society might try and box you into.

You're seeing yourself as a plethora of different peoples and different identities, and you're finding a way to bridge them all at the intersections as well.

And so what that really means is that you probably have friends in different places in your life.

You don't just have one friendship group, you probably have many who represent different parts of you.

You, you might have a book club you go to, you might then have a film club you go to, you might then have a parents evening that you also attend.

But you might find that you relate only partly to each person because that you only see part of yourselves in each person rather than the whole self.

And so this idea of being undefinable is being able to evolve past labels, being able to see past labels, and being able to live past labels as well.

So when you meet someone, you don't just see who they are on the surface.

You don't hear their answer to what you do, and you assume that that's all they are.

You're not trying to judge someone based on that answer because a lot of people ask that question to try and say, oh, is this person worth my time or not?

The undefinable seeks to find depth beneath them as well.

And then we also have five values that show up in the community and show up in the undefinables that we meet as well.

Which hopefully, if my memory serves me well, I'll be able to list off the top of my head here.

I do have my book next to me, so if.

Yeah, here as well, maybe I can help you.

I'm just reading, but we got respectful curiosity.

So ask with the intention to learn and listen fully to the answers as well.

And then emotional bravery, so ability to share with intention what we're struggling with and confront the answers and solutions as they come up as well.

And then collective responsibility.

So leave people, places, and projects in a better way than we found them.

And then seriously silly.

Uh, so, you know, discuss topics that matter, but don't be afraid to laugh along the way.

And then purposeful action.

So make meaningful progress on projects, even if we're starting with a little bit now and working on it later as well.

So it's about taking the small steps now because you know that it will build up to something bigger in the future.

I mean, I might have done that a bit out of order, but the values there, I think, are resonant with the undefinable because they show an ability to be true to oneself and to be able to represent who they are uniquely and to be able to resist society's impulse to constrain them and put it in boxes as well.

That's what they're.

Yeah, I. I was thinking you are.

So you are 27, is that right?

I am 27 next month, so I'm 26 right now.

Okay.

Oh, wow.

Even more impressive.

So, yeah, I was interviewing another guest and her podcast comes out tomorrow and she's 25.

So I am having.

These days where I'm kind of just like blown away by younger people.

It's so great.

But what I was thinking, when did you first.

Because when you grow up.

I have kids myself.

When you grow up, even looking at them, it's so easy, really early to be put into this.

Put these labels on.

You know, you're good at math, you're going in that direction.

You're like sports, that direction.

So when did you realize yourself that you didn't want this kind of.

This label or to be put in a box?

So take us back to, like, how.

How did that.

How did this undefinable life design rise for yourself?

Yeah, I mean, in truth, I've only had the words for it more recently.

So looking back, it's for sure with hindsight, but I would have felt a disconnect and a feeling of not fitting in fully anywhere throughout my childhood.

And that's probably where it starts.

So if I look back on sort of school days, I'm like 13, 14.

I think back to myself of, like, not being particularly good at anything, which perhaps allows me to have a blank canvas of sorts, because it doesn't have me put in a box of, I don't know, the academic achiever or the sports person or the X or Y thing.

And so that became pretty powerful.

But when you're in school, you kind of want to be good at something that's part of the ambition.

And so I found throughout my time that running became a great method of achieving that.

I started as one of the worst ones there.

And it's the kind of sport that the more you do and the more you show up, the better you get.

And so enabled myself to become like vice captain by the time I left school.

And that journey of being able to get good at something and go from a beginner to I guess, an expert relative to my ability at that age allowed me then to understand the principles of learning and to apply that to other things.

And so when I went and did the same for academics and in my final year of school when I was 17, 18, like decided to reset all of my A levels the year before and to do like 14, 15 exams or something in my final year of school and came out with like significantly better grades than before as well.

And I think those two like catalyzing moments for me became like reminders that I can apply this learning mindset to anything.

And I'm not limited in it just being sport or just being academics.

I can then do the same for business.

And so I went on to university and in my second year started my first official business.

I mean, I mean I've been doing very many more of them beforehand in school, I think as many stories of entrepreneurs tell.

But I've been doing a tuck shop, I've been doing clothing brand.

All the fun stuff that I feel are rights of passages in some ways while at school.

But then at university decided to take.

I think this is another critical point.

Most people do a placement, so probably 95, 98% of people do a placement year on the course in our business school.

So went to Loughborough and did international business and I decided instead to do a year in enterprise, which was kind of a new thing that introduced where you'd start your own business for a year.

And so I decided to do that and work part time.

So I even say rejected that full time job ambition that most people had and decided okay, you know, part time I can earn enough to, you know, live with friends and then I can go all in on my like business idea.

My first one postie where we basically designed parcel box to attach to your house to receive deliveries for you.

That was a fun journey.

Learned a lot, decided parcel boxes weren't for me, but along the way realized that this creative approach to building business doing things differently was really powerful.

And then a similar thing happened in my final year of uni as well, where I closed that first business and then was Living with housemates that I'd met in my first year through Enactus, where we create social enterprises.

That makes you feel old, but yeah.

And then there's we also the businesses that I've met on that year, enterprise as well.

And then we solve problems together and like help them adapt to Covid.

And that then became a second business because you then monetize it.

You then think about it as a talent assessment day where startups can see talent in action.

People who spend eight hours on a Saturday brainstorming are probably people that are pretty highly motivated and are good employees.

So helping them hire talent into startups became the second business.

And that journey followed me for like two years, built like a bootstrap business, enjoyed it, built a team and then decided I'd evolve past that identity again.

And so that's another theme that I've seen consistently is the ability to walk away from things as well.

Yeah.

Particularly if I no longer feel like my identity is wrapped up in them.

So even if you've built something to the point of like sunk cost of oh my God, I've got so, so far.

I'm so close.

Exactly.

I remember rereading some of those posts and saying like I, there's this image in my mind of this person who's like digging at this.

Then you cross towards like diamonds and someone's walking away and the next person decides to continue digging.

And so I referred to it in, I think both posts to be honest about closing posty and then closing House Sack and saying like in a similar vein, I didn't really mind how close I was to gold because if I wanted it in the first place, it like it no longer mattered to me.

I no longer wanted this gold that was in front of me.

All these diamonds that I was so close to getting because were no longer relevant.

And I think that practice and that preaching on the journey being as important as the destination, I felt that those things were vehicles for learning for me more than anything else and opportunities to double down on that.

And then even from closing that second business, I went into like sort of portfolio work without realizing it.

Took a three day a week contract project management role and then helped some other people start similar businesses to the two I'd done beforehand.

And then throughout that started a newsletter which then became the foundations from which I Guess we connected but also I think from which became undefinable life designs.

That was like March 22nd I started the newsletter.

It took many names, many shapes, many forms.

It was firstly a half written book that I reformatted into a weekly newsletter.

Wrote there consistently for about two years.

Got some experience working at Portfolio Collective as well and help some undefinables through the community outside of it and then realize there's something here at the intersections, there's a model, a way of helping that I believe I can bring to the world.

And so decided to level up and bring it all into a book that I could then produce in many formats.

I feel like now having written the second draft of this book like it funnels into Allow me to be a better coach.

Allows me to be a better explainer of what I do at the same time.

So having sat so deeply with an idea allows me to communicate much more clearly on what it is as well.

So that was a very long answer to your question, but hopefully that gives you some context on.

On the why.

Yeah.

And what I'm wondering about is if it's something in you that makes you able to kind of leave these identities and not care so much about at least the perceived expectations from society or from family, friends, or if it is something in the younger generation, which is because if I look at myself, my Generation X, if we should put a label on it, it's very much like you took this education, you got this huge student loan, you went out, got a job and then like you said, the sun cost.

You can't leave that because I paid so much for the education and for myself.

That just that part of leaving the identity as a geophysicist for my, my part.

And okay, that is something I can.

I just, I put that identity up on the shelf, maybe I can take it down sometime, but now I leave it.

That was really, really hard.

Yeah.

So I'm wondering if it's something personal in you or if it's a generational thing.

What do you think?

I think it's probably both.

So I think there's an entrepreneur side of me that might be more uniquely me of like a desire to do things differently and a contrarian within me.

I'd probably be more likely to reject the status quo than to follow it purely because I want to do the opposite.

Which again is not always that helpful either.

But I feel that there's a desire of me to want to express my difference and to follow the status quo is often to hide it.

There's definitely that side of me as well.

But I think there's also a generational side to this as well.

There's a couple of factors that play into that.

There's of course, the people who throughout social media will tell us how easy it is to do our own path and to build a business and to be an entrepreneur and X, Y, Z thing, who of course are inspiring people, for better or for worse, to do their own thing earlier.

Which is powerful because it helps you realize you're not reliant on it.

And there are true stories of people who at an early age, say, make a significant amount of money.

It tends to be money as a motivation for that, that then have the freedom to live a life on their own terms.

That is one factor that plays into it.

The other one is again, like the reality of ability to have a meaningful goal at this age.

So I write about it in the book, but what I mean by that is if I ask my parents that my mum, like bought her one bed flat when she was 19, I'm like, how do you buy a flat at 19?

That's crazy.

And she's like, very much like working class family as well.

And I was like, wow.

So I've been to university, done the degree, got this education and then like, oh, I have to like a barely.

On a normal average wage in London, you can barely afford to live here as well.

And I think that that's a reality that a lot of my generation are confronting is that you're stuck in this sort of rent cycle of being able to not really afford a milestone that our parents were given and they had a reason for putting their heads down.

I was like, oh, yeah, we'll earn deposit, get the house and we'll then be able to have a secure place to raise a family.

It was quite a clear goal.

But for us it's very much more, oh, if you follow the default path, you don't even have that goal to aim towards.

There's not even the fallback option that is as appealing as it previously was.

And so a lot of, I mean, my generation takes many paths.

Either they can be, oh, okay, I'll just quit my job and go traveling and live in Southeast Asia.

That's the classic path.

But then there's also a, okay, I'll put my head down and I'll do the work as I need to, but then I will on the side build something that I can then exit into and jump into full time.

And so they're the ones that, yeah, resisting that overwhelm.

But There are also those that chase the shiny badges, the ones with the prestige who go for the Googles, who go for the big fang companies.

They're the ones that want that stability and they often get rewarded enough for it that they can actually afford the milestones that so many of us perhaps can't.

And that then means that they have that stability, that basis, but their identity becomes wrapped up in that prestige.

That ex Googler X Facebook that you'd see.

It's a bit crazy.

Imagine putting like an ex partner on it.

It would be wild, wouldn't it?

So, yeah, in that vein, there are many paths to take here, but I.

The pressure is economic as much as it's personal to me as well.

Yes.

Yeah.

Interesting.

I, I wonder if you could.

Like, as I said, I'm reading the book as we speak and it's, it's.

We can't go into the whole book, even though I wanted to.

But could you share a little bit about the, the framework and the methods you use in this undefinable life design?

And there's especially some of them that really hit me.

Like for instance, the one with being semi professional.

Yeah.

Because that was like, yeah, you can explain it.

But I felt, yeah, it really, really helped me.

So just please explain.

Nice.

I'm glad, I'm glad to hear that as well because I've heard that that's a really resonant thing that's helped unlock different ways of viewing oneself and one's ambition as well.

Okay.

So I'd ask the listener to visualize a, like a thread like with rope in the center.

And then either side has like different extensions of the rope.

Maybe five on the left, five on the right, and they converge in the middle.

And so it's a five stage model, the undefinable life design model.

And so on the left hand side we have the first stage where the many interests.

So this is where I asked you or invite you to explore the interests that are uniquely yours.

Not ones that you inherited from your parents or that society placed on you long ago, but the ones that actually you feel resonate with you.

Things that if I asked you, you had 168 hours in a week, which you do, and I paid for all your bills.

How would you spend your time?

What would you do with that time?

And where would it be?

Who would it be with?

What would it look like?

What are those things that draw you to it?

And is there a reason for those interests deeper than just the surface level?

So you might say, oh, I like Bouldering and I like reading.

Okay.

Is it because you like connecting with your own mind through thought and through physical interaction?

Maybe it's deeper than simply the interests themselves.

So ask yourself one level deeper as well.

But each of us have many interests.

We maybe have forgotten them or let go of them or had entertainment consume them.

But if we connect with the interests themselves, we'll find part of us that's unique.

So from that, I then invite you to think about what overlaps, what abstracts between the interests.

And you'll find in there some core traits that can help guide us throughout this process as well.

So what are these traits that show up consistently for you in how you approach those interests and how you think about them?

So that's the first stage, the many interests.

The second stage, where this five ropes start to converge, is the semi professional.

So this is the idea that we're often told that you should be go pro in something.

It's striven to be like the, the niche mentality of like, you've got to be really good at this one thing.

That's where you'll earn enough, you'll make enough impact.

That's like your focus for life is on this one thing.

And I find it very unhelpful because it's.

It distracts from the fact that you can create your own niches, you can create your own areas by blending.

And so this whole semi professional idea is around blending.

And so I see it as there's an amateur front to taking an interest in something where you're just showing up for fun.

Yeah, you're having fun, having a good time, no harm done, that's cool.

But then there's also a professional side where it's all you think about, it consumes you, it's your identity and you become locked up in it.

And so there are like two extremes of the amateur and the professional.

And so I invite people to think about being semi pro, being somewhere in between, where it's not their entire identity, but they know enough of the basics, the advanced skills, that they can do it while they sleep.

They can show up for it subconsciously, be unconsciously competent at that skill, but not try to compete to be the best in the world at it.

That's the difference is you're not trying to be the 0.01% of people because you're playing in an existing category.

My best way of explaining it is thinking about it for sport.

So if you're thinking about being a professional in a sport, we'll take my football as a relatable example, you've got to be the top like 0.0 reoccurring 1% of people.

Everyone else is very much down that curve in terms of pay, in terms of rewards, in terms of being able to compete at the top level.

Down to someone playing Sunday league football.

Like there's a lot of people involved in that sport and to be the best of it, you have to dedicate your entire life to it.

And like the song cool.

That might be the path for them.

But what I invite majority people to do is to instead choose 3, 5 interests that they have that they want to be same professional in and that they find attract them enough to go deep in, but not to wrap themselves completely in the identity of.

And I then believe through combining those semi professional interests that they'll find their uniqueness within that and they'll be able to bring something to the world that no one else can see.

And so this is the third stage, the golden thread right in the center, this is where this rope starts to really converge and overlaps.

And can I just, can I just tell you where this really hit me?

Go for it.

That was that curve.

You know the.

How many hours you spend when you're an amateur?

Like what's that, like one to five hours a week or something?

Yeah.

And then like rises quite quickly to being a semi professional.

You don't have to spend that many more hours.

But then if you do it, if you're going all in, you have to spend like 40 hours a week or plus.

So that difference.

But where I found myself when I read this was that I have too many interests where I only spend like one to five hours a week or something in that.

And the thing that you're also saying in the book is that what it limits you in is the ability to create something which is your own.

Like you can quote people, you can read that book and oh yeah, that's a good thing, but you can't, you don't have the expertise to actually say something useful about it or create something of your own around that.

So that was just like.

Yes, exactly.

And it's very, it's very nice to see that you don't have to.

It's not a big difference in time commitment to reach that level.

Yeah.

And the big thing is this like classic conversation nowadays around generalist versus specialist.

And I'm like, you're missing the point.

Yeah, like it's not about either, it's about doing both.

And so what I try and invite people to do here is like, yes, have lots of generalist backbone of skills and competencies.

So you can show up as the human that you are by communicating, but beneath that, have, like, depth to you as well.

Like, be able to showcase enough knowledge, but not in one area, but in a few areas that through your recombination, you can add some amazing values to the world that only you can see.

And so I truly believe that it's at the intersections of ideas that you'll find the thing worth doing.

Yes, okay, sorry, go on.

And so, I mean, that's a great setup for the golden thread is hopefully the thing worth doing.

And so I see this as the internal compass that guides decision making.

So it's not necessarily something that you have to Write in your LinkedIn header.

You could, if you chose to, but it's something that you use for yourself to say yes to certain things and more importantly, no to other things.

Because if you're undefinable and you have many interests, it's very easy to go, yes, I'd love to try that thing out.

I loved that thing because everything's exciting, learning is fun, but being able to say no to things when you're in that mindset is really powerful.

And so having this individual that you help, the who and calling out specifically what they are, don't just tell me it's an entrepreneur.

Everyone loves helping entrepreneurs.

But tell me deeper than that.

Like, how does that person see the world?

And in my own statement, it's those who intentionally live beyond conventional labels that's the undefinable that I put words to.

It might be hard to find those words at first, maybe use other people's language, but I invite you to find your own language for it.

That's what's really powerful, is if the golden thread represents you, there's the who that you help, and then there's the how you help them.

So what's unique to you?

How can you bring in some of these core traits that you have, these ways of seeing the world that you show up with in your many interests?

And how can you help that person to achieve a certain outcome as well?

And that's what the how's all about.

And then the what you provide is tangibly, what is it that you do?

It could be a label that already exists.

So you might say, in my case, writing a book, which is crazy, or you might go a bit bigger of, say, for community, I might say providing intimate spaces rather than community.

So it's a bit of a wider definition rather than a.

A narrow one as well.

So there are many different ways of framing the what it's whatever you help is a, whatever you think is a useful way of saying yes to certain things and no to other things as well.

So that's the golden thread and it's an internal compass that you can then use to enter into the four stage.

So you might at this point, the rope's starting to come out of converging and again expand again into a few different threads.

And here is the.

The Magnum opus.

So Latin for great work.

I use it to think about the Vitruvian men of the past, of when they create these new ideas, these new ways of doing arts.

I mean the classic is a da Vinci, but there are many others as well who in my eyes are a very like aspirational to have of like they set entire new ways of thinking and entire new tones, entire new flavors.

You might have a Steve Jobs who's, you know, here's the smartphone, now we all use smartphones.

So he's inventing something that's perhaps his great work is the magnum opus.

They are quite tangible magnum opuses, but they can also be a brand that you create, a mission, a way that people can interact with your golden thread.

That's how I see the magnum opus.

So it's the external perspective of what was before your internal compass.

And so there's a lot of thinking that has to go into that around what resonates, how does it become your guide.

And you'll evolve it over time for sure, but when you find it, and in my case, it's undefinable life design, you'll see that it's a powerful way of integrating all of the different parts of yourself.

And that brings us to the fifth stage, the final one, which is your value streams.

So I describe it as value streams and not income streams because it includes both paid and unpaid work.

So in my case, I decide that my community is a non profit.

It does not pay me directly.

And so we have contribution fees from members, but they go into sustaining the experience for everyone because I believe that everyone contributes in their own way to the community.

And so that's something for me that's a value stream in the sense that it's something that I do with my time.

I spend probably a day, at least a week on it, but it does not pay me directly.

Obviously indirectly it benefits me.

But.

But there are other methods here.

Maybe volunteering, maybe being a parent.

They're all pretty unpaid value streams.

But there are of course monetized value streams and you would need enough to be able to live for sure.

And so in the book, I explain a lot more about how to experiment with offers, how to build offers out of your value streams, and then how to think about monetizing them in a way that makes sense for you and for those that engage with it as well.

So the idea is to have value streams that relate to your magnum opus.

So in my case, like the book, the coco, the coaching, the community, they all relate to it as well.

But you might have ones that don't too.

So my sport, I have not overlapped into my magnum opus.

It's a sustaining thing.

It's a way of me being able to shop better as myself throughout the world, rather than something that I deliver as value to others as well.

So see value streams as inputs and outputs.

So inputs to yourself that allow you to feel valuable and then outputs to others that allow you to exchange value with them.

Exactly.

I'm curious about this because you talk about creating value streams that feel aligned, as you said.

Now, so what do you think are the biggest shifts that people need to make?

Trying to do work that feels both impactful and aligned and also then financially sustainable?

Because that is often.

We kind of often separate them.

It's.

You do this and then you do that for money.

So you see what I mean?

Yeah, for sure.

Yeah.

I have a chapter on this called Blend Purpose, Profit and play.

It was.

It was purpose and profit.

And then I was like, this also needs to be fun as well.

Yeah, play in that too.

And that's all about boundary setting.

So what boundaries do you want and which ones do you want to blur?

So for me, I take a very blurred approach in the community is the best example of it.

So the community within it, I have, of course, the community members, which of which many of them are also my friends, of which several of them are my clients that I work with, of which one of them is my partner as well.

So there are a lot of levels to the community, and I have in the past found it quite a challenge to shop most authentically as myself, beyond labels, because I feel that there's a pressure to perform a certain way, to look like I know what I'm doing, because I have these different Personas in the community.

But actually, most recently at one of our retreats, I actually shared that that was a struggle that I had around blurring those different boundaries.

And I kind of opened up to everyone in that way, was being emotionally brave, should we say?

And, um.

And that was a really powerful moment because it kind of let my Brain just sort of release.

And I allow myself before that session.

Cause I was actually leading that session, so I knew what was going to be the question.

So I allow myself during that weekend to show up as my most authentic self in example of what I was saying in that session itself.

So I said to everyone, hey, look, like this weekend I've really tried to be just who I am right now and maybe what I'm struggling with and not tried to just put on a mask and wear that in front of others instead.

So yeah, it can be a challenge, but I find that where the motivation overlaps.

Again, the community for me, yes, it's nonprofit, but I also built advocates that probably also want the coaching that probably also want to read the book.

So like again, that nonprofit give back purpose also helps me with the profit making some money side.

But I find that the two things are overlapping in the sense that it's not.

Not aligned to purpose.

To make money, you can make money and be purposeful.

So the things can be aligned.

I felt the third factor of play was something that I was missing more in that mix, but have now reinvited it into it.

And so, yeah, no easy answers on that.

It depends on the individual and your setup and your value streams that you have.

But you might want to blur some of them.

You might want to leave some of them separate.

That's totally okay.

It's all about how you find that you want to show up in the world.

And I was, you know, we often hear that, oh, you have to turn off your.

It's been like a gradual evolvement, I guess, like, like earlier days, people had this.

This was work and this was your free time.

Yeah.

And you had the boundary.

And then it blended in in a way, in a.

Maybe an unhealthy way.

Yeah.

But again, now you're talking about actually mixing it more.

So I wonder if you think that because I had the same issue that I.

At some point I felt that everything I did, it was after, like getting this more entrepreneurial mindset.

I guess everything I did had to be, oh, how can I monetize it?

Or how can I make a business out of it?

It could be just baking or.

Yeah.

And then I was.

I started looking for something that I, if I start this, it will be impossible to monetize.

So I started picking up my piano playing.

I will never, never be able to monetize it, that's for sure.

But that is just looking for something which is only, only for me for fun, you know, and putting that boundary around it so is that.

Would you say that is today you're running or that you're.

Yeah, so, I mean, yeah, I.

Running is also an interesting one because I did have someone pay me last year to sponsor me.

Yes, I remember that.

So I'm maybe a bit hypocrite to say it's purely play, but the way I approached that was saying that I would do it purely for the.

That race call.

I did not want to commit for a number of years.

The person tried to ask me to say, oh, can we do it for like an ongoing thing?

And I was like, no, no, no, no, no.

This needs to be towards a race milestone.

That when that's done, I know that this project is finished so that I can then feel free to do a different sport or to evolve it.

So having done running, then triathlons now, ultramarathon, like, for me, it's about the adventure of sport.

And I felt that if I constrained myself to having to go faster, which is something that often brands want to align with, then I would be restricted in how I approach sport as well.

So, yeah, that definitely is part of why I keep sports separate as well.

I'd also say that by having the golden thread, it enables me to know that that isn't in scope.

And so I'm not trying to think about monetizing that I have in the past, but now I have that clarity.

I'm thinking with my internal compass on of actually that thing's fine to leave unmonetized.

It's a supporting thing.

It allows what I draw in.

The book is a value Acropolis.

It supports the pillars of happiness in my life.

So if you imagine it as like a Greek acropolis, the different pillars of value streams that we have, what things are supporting you and like relationships, home, sport, for me, they're things that allow me to show up.

So I'm not trying to overthink about how I provide for others.

On the outside of that too.

Yeah.

Yes.

Who do you like?

As I mentioned, I. I feel that I'm very much in your target zone with your book and with your work.

But also I guess younger people would feel very drawn to it.

But what's your experience?

Who do you see this, like hitting home with?

Who are drawn to this work, do you think?

So the ones that I help, like Coach in particular, I feel are they like person I had in mind I'm writing the book.

So they are of course undefinables in that they've never fit in one place, but have many interests, do many things and see themselves as more than one label.

Like that's the first thing that's probably what you also relate to is that undefinability side.

And then the second part is the stage.

So there's often this like age of discovery is what I call it generally between 22 and 35, but it could be broader than that.

It's where you're still figuring out who you are and what's important to you and how you want to spend your time.

Between the age of discovery and the second age that I call the age of commitments, when life starts to get a bit more serious, you start thinking particularly about family planning and you start thinking about long term commitments you want to make.

So you're thinking five, 10 years rather than thinking one, two years.

That starts to become quite exciting.

You start thinking, oh, compound interests.

How can I build up things that are relevant to me?

How can I reap the rewards of consistency?

And the people that are transitioning between age of discovery to age of commitments, maybe they've got a long term partner or they've got a house they want to buy, or they've got a role or business they want to build.

They're the people that I feel that this is most aligned to help because it helps them think about clearly what do I use as my compass for guiding me.

But it would of course also relate to those that have maybe at a certain later point have reinvented themselves and have left previous roles and have now found themselves without a compass or perhaps a past label to guide them and are now reconsidering who they want to be perhaps at that sort of later stage in life where it's coming out of a previous employment role and entering into a portfolio work of doing your own thing.

So I can see why we relate in a similar way to a person who's later in their career journey.

But yeah, I think it's all about finding that internal compass and using it in an intentional way.

So those that lack the internal compass are the ones that perhaps would find it most resonant.

Yes, I agree.

And I think those like reinventing themselves or those just feeling like a little bit stuck perhaps and starting to ask this question, is this it?

Yeah, you know, and those are, could be in their 40s, even 50s, maybe later.

So yes, I think it could speak to a lot of people.

And this brings me to the next question.

Actually I mentioned that I had another guest in your same age group or same generation, if we should label it a gen Z. Yep, Z, would you say actually Z yeah.

You know what I mean?

And she talking to her really made me think that we should lose these labels as well, because I think there's so much to gain from this, like, generational mixing and learning from each other.

And I think it's a tendency and I see it in myself.

So I have kids in Gen Z and I guess Alpha, and we were so quick to, oh, that's.

Yeah, Gen Z, you know, being lazy or I don't know.

So it's easy to do, but I think it's hindering a lot of good collaboration and learning.

So how do you think that we could better bridge this divide between generations?

I completely agree.

As a starting point, I feel the problem statement is around prejudging the knowledge and understanding of the different generations.

So it's saying, oh, you're just out of touch and I'll get back to me, oh, you just don't know anything.

Like, you're just getting started.

Like.

So it's.

I almost don't introduce my age very much anymore.

I tend to think I'm about three years older anyway, but that's kind of a different story.

Um, but I actually tend to lead with, like, not really revealing that.

And I think Even from my LinkedIn, I maybe remove my, like, education dates as well, because that would be a classic to reveal your age.

Because I don't really want that stigma.

I don't really want that attachment to my value and how I show up.

It's also, there's power dynamics here.

Yeah, People want you to be able to take on a less paid role at a younger age.

It makes sense.

You've got to earn your place is that language goes as well.

So there's definitely power dynamics that hold up that structure of perception around individuals.

So you are playing from a difficult position there for sure.

But how I've seen it work to bridge those gaps.

Actually, I partnered with a amazing person called Aviva, who's in maybe a couple of generations above me.

I want to reveal her age, but a few generations above me, and she and I hosted these intergenerational dinners where we'd have eight people around a dinner table and she would bring a couple in their, like, 60s, 50s, and I'd bring like, 30s and 20s.

And then we'd have this, like, one topic that we talk about and then we'd all kind of pass the mic around and introduce our sort of statements on it and what we thought about it, and then we'd listen to one another and then we'd ask questions and what was really revealing.

There was the.

The empathy and the ability to really hear someone rather than prejudge the answer.

So instead of being like, oh, okay, you're only thinking that because you just had this experience or something where your mind's just going straight to trying to resolve their problem, you're instead sitting with it and being like, oh, yeah, I hear you.

That must be really tough.

Tell me more.

Yeah, you're curious.

You're no longer trying to block out just simple abstractions of different people.

You're instead thinking, okay, tell me more about who you are uniquely, as well.

And so that led some really amazing conversations, and I definitely felt that that was a powerful way of doing it.

I think the idea of, like, mentoring is interesting.

Mentoring assumes one is a mentor, one is a mentee.

Reverse mentoring, it assumes the same thing, but on reverse.

So maybe it's more of, like, equal partnerships that are powerful, where you're working with someone from a different generation rather than assume that they are your mentor or you are their mentee.

I feel like that's a powerful thing to remind us of as well.

It's also calling out that, like, that both things have value.

So if you're saying that, okay, if I'm in my 20s and I'm working with someone in their 50s, I've had, like, previous experiences where they'll expect me to work for a lot less than them on the same thing, even though we're collaborating evenly.

And I'm like, I think I'm offering the same value as you from a different perspective here.

Yes, you have industry, experience, relevance, for sure.

But, like, we need to talk about this as equals, not as about, I work for you.

And I think that that's a really important part of this journey as well, is collaboration, not employment or working for someone.

Obviously, that's people will work for people, but, like, thinking about it as equals rather than thinking about it as a power dynamic.

Yes.

Yes, I totally agree.

And that's such a good idea with those dinners.

I want to replicate that.

Sure.

Yeah.

Really good.

Yes.

Okay, so we're approaching the end, so I would like to end with this.

Seen from my own stage, perhaps, or people that I talk to and work with.

If somebody is listening now and feeling like they have outgrown their label, perhaps, or the thing that they clung to.

Yeah.

But they wonder, okay, what's next?

What do I do?

Who am I?

Where?

What would you say to them?

Where should I start?

By reading your book, perhaps?

Well, I'd say welcome.

Like, this is a very exciting stage.

It's also quite overwhelming stage because you've realized that the people around you, as much as this thing that you do, no longer wholly resonate with who you are.

It also means you've probably grown a lot as well.

So take that in your stride a little bit here.

You're probably more than you were before, and so you're wanting to reach out towards that new person that you're becoming as well.

I'd say remind yourself that reinvention is possible.

So look at previous experiences you've had, where you've left things, or you've been in really challenging moments and you've risen to the challenge.

Remind yourself that it's possible to be more than you were yesterday and that you are right now, because it is.

And even though if there's a myriad of opportunities you could take going forward and there's a whole darkness ahead, you know that you can navigate it with the support that you have and the people around you.

I actually visualize it myself in terms of, like, in a tunnel where you can see the light at the end of the person you want to become.

But it's a challenge and a slog to get there, moving towards that light.

But if you look behind you, you can see that there are shadows of support from people who are your friends, who are your loved ones, who you want to carry with you through that journey as well.

So lean on them throughout the change.

Ask them to help you to sound bored, because it is their support that will help you become the next version of yourself as well.

And there won't ever become a day where you feel like you've got there, because that's a lie, too.

So appreciate the becoming.

I'd say the journaling helps a lot.

I've been weekly journaling every, like, every Sunday for the last five years, if not more.

And so being able to see and look back on how I've evolved and what my priorities have changed, that's a really powerful thing to do as well.

But, yeah, I'd say sitting with and reflecting and calling out chapters of your life and focuses for sprints and marathons that you're doing literally and metaphorically, that is quite a powerful thing of giving words to the change.

Because it might feel like, oh, I don't know what this change is, but if you sit down and you really reflect on who do you want to be, then you'll start to give words to it that will help guide you.

Yes.

And maybe also read the book.

That's pretty helpful.

Yeah, exactly.

And on that note, where, where can.

When is the book due?

Where can people find it?

Or where can they find the other parts of your writing and work?

Yeah.

But don't hold me to that.

If it requires longer to write a better book, I'll take longer.

But it sounds like we're along the right lines right now.

So they're getting some good feedback so I'm feeling good about it.

I'd say the best place to find out more about me undefinablelifedesign substack.

That's the place that I write and have written for the past three years.

So you can see how much my writing's evolved.

You go back right to the start.

You can see some very different writing to now.

Yes, it's interesting.

Yeah.

And that's the purposeful action.

Yeah.

That's taking action before I'm ready as well and like realizing that I'm evolving it as well.

Going to build a website soon so I'll link to it from the substack.

So I'd say subscribe on there and follow along and I'll share some journeys of writing this book and get everyone there a ability to pre order it at some point when it comes available as well.

Yes.

Great.

Yes.

I so enjoyed this and I can just highly recommend people going to your substack and also like following when the book is due because this is great stuff and I love the topic.

So thank you so much for sharing and for everything that you do and best of luck with your next crazy race.

Thank you.

Yeah, I will, I will hold off.

I will resist the urge to look the next thing and solve the problem of openness.

But once I do I'll probably end of summer I'll be like, okay, I'll pick something but for now I'm just sitting in the in between and sitting comfortable with it.

But yeah, thank you so much for having me.

Really appreciate this.

Well, wasn't that great?

Isn't it good to know that you can put together this really interesting life and career that lets you to do and be many things at the same time.

As I mentioned, I have already read a first draft of Charlie's book and I'm already implementing much of his framework and way of thinking.

I know that the book is coming closer to being finished since we recorded this and I highly recommend keeping an eye out for the release date.

I also know that Charlie has started doing these workshops that he talked about.

So if you are in London or close by, you should definitely check them out.

I will put all the links in the show notes.

As always, you can find out more about the podcast and my work on vklavnes.substack.com and storiesforthefuture.com and please get in touch if you have feedback, questions or guest recommendations.

Perhaps.

Thanks so much for listening.

Until next time, just keep all the tabs open and if that's you, embrace being undefinable.

See you in a week.