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From the Farm to a Bear Hunt with Casi Ph.d
Episode 727th February 2024 • Being the Work • Ben Wire and Blakely Adams
00:00:00 01:00:19

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From helping struggling students to cherishing sweet victories, we explore the profound effect of genuine human bonds and the crucial role of vulnerability in connection for those we help, and for ourselves. Here’s a front-row seat to the realities and commitments of our journey of compassion…and to how Casi's passion took her on a bear hunt.

Just a Note: this is an uncensored show full of our personal opinions. So you will hear us cuss sometimes.

We keep our community and show ad free and open to helpers, your investment will help to directly build the brave space we all need. Support Being the Work by

And remember, we're not YOUR helpers. Everything here is our opinion and is intended to support you, not give professional advice. Get the help you need, when you need it, where you need it. Here are a few resources for mental health support for you and those you love: 

National Alliance on Mental Illness

US Substance Use and Mental Health Services Administration

National Suicide Prevention Lifeline

Transcripts

Ben:

So I'm super excited to have my good friend Casi on the podcast today.

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Thank you so much for being

here and for hosting us.

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I'm

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Casi: excited to have

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Blakely: you.

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Usually in getting started with

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people, one or the other of us is sort of

bringing that person to the conversation.

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And I'm assuming that

most of our listeners.

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So just to set a little bit of shorthand

in the beginning, I like to ask people

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to give us a rundown of some of those,

um, elements of your personality.

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If you know your Enneagram or your MBTI,

even your astrological sign, I think those

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start to patch together what we, at least

how we see ourselves and what some of

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Casi: our instincts are.

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Well, my name is Casi.

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Um, I am a mom first and foremost.

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I'm also a school counselor and have

been so for the last seven years.

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I was a high school teacher prior to that

for about eight years, which is kind of

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what led me to be a school counselor,

but I guess we'll get into that later.

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Yeah.

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Um, okay.

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First of all, I love taking

all those quizzes and reading

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about all those things.

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Ben: It's so much fun.

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Casi: I am a Virgo baby.

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Okay.

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And so a lot of that comes

up with perfectionism.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And we'll be like, oh yeah,

that resonates with her.

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I am also an I N F J.

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I am also a two with a Wing three

for an Enneagram, so a helper and.

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Ben: That fits.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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That fits.

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Blakely: People talk a lot of shit

about astrology, but it's funny how it

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all kind of comes together because INFJ

kind of sums up the Virgo personality.

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I think so too.

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My understanding, at least is this like

achieving perfectionist, deep feeling

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oftentimes feeling Uh, different,

lonely in that mix of intensity,

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Casi: I think.

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Yeah, it's like we have this

deep desire to be loved and to

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belong and to be enough, but

oftentimes we don't necessarily

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know how to go out into the world.

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Blakely: Yeah.

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To find the tribe.

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Yes.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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Ben: Okay.

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Uh, wow.

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You're impressive, Blakely.

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Mm.

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You just like, you have all that stuff

just like in your head and I love it.

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I'm here for it.

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Seeing Casi, you nod

along with all of that.

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I'm like, okay, I'm

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Blakely: learning.

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Oh, and that's why I like to ask this

question too, because it's just me spit

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balling what I know about these random

pieces of who you feel like you are.

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And then Ben has actually been around

you and has a relationship with you and

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has kind of observed you in the wild.

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Yeah.

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Ben: So it's funny how

it all comes together.

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So Casi and I met in our PhD And,

uh, I think we had online classes

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before we actually knew each other,

and then like, we knew each other

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after reading each other's work for a

long time, for like a whole semester.

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And then, our, our cohort just

like bonded super strong, and.

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I mean, it was like, then the pandemic

happened and everything, and we just, I

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don't know, stuck together through it all.

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Like, having

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Casi: that sense of

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Ben: community was huge.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, for sure.

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It's a huge reason why I want to do this.

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Right?

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Like, like we have so much in common

and so much that bonds us that we just

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need to learn more about each other.

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It's helped my self care a ton.

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Yeah,

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Casi: I love listening to the podcast.

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Uh, the things that come to mind

when I do listen to you both is

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one, how knowledgeable you both are.

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Two, how raw and real,

just how comforting.

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Mm.

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This whole process is, um, I actually

look forward to when you release them.

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Ben: Wow.

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Thank you.

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Spread the word.

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That film makes me feel warm.

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I like that.

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Thank you.

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So take us back to the beginning.

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What, what were key moments that you

remember that show signs of you wanting

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to be a helper or feeling deeply, or,

uh, like what were the hurts, the joys?

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That brought you a desire

to help other people.

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And I

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Casi: think it was always within

me, um, share a really funny story.

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And I vaguely remember doing this, but

I have three older siblings who like to

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share sometimes interesting stories about

our childhood, but I would, we lived on a

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farm and I had a tricycle, you know, the

really awesome ones that had the seats

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that lifted up and you could put things

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Ben: in.

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Oh yeah, sure.

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Sure.

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Casi: So on a farm,

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Blakely: you find things,

so many discoveries for your

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little seat compartment.

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Exactly.

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You got

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Casi: it.

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Oh boy.

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And I, I was just trying to love them

and nurture all the things I would find

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and put in my little seat compartment.

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And then, you know, sometimes

they would not survive.

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And so then we'd have to

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Ben: go through, you're

talking about living things.

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Like

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Casi: little animals.

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You'd find, I just wanted to love them.

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Like what like

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Ben: birds, you put a bird

in your, in your tricycle.

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Yeah, . Okay.

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Casi: So like they'd be there, you know,

and Uhhuh and I don't really necessarily

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remember, but my siblings make fun

of me all the time for it because How

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Ben: old are you?

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Tricycle age?

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Yeah, , thank you.

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With the cool

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Blakely: seat

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Casi: you guys, yeah.

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That's a key

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Blakely: component.

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Uh, no,

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Ben: that young specific

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Blakely: You're of the,

what, like early nineties

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Ben: You're coming across these.

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Lovable creatures and you want

to love them just like all of the

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cartoons that you had watched.

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Yeah.

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Blakely: Oh, yeah.

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This is very Lenny and George, right?

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Casi: Oh, I don't know that one.

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That wasn't on PBS.

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I didn't see it.

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Ben: I Lived on a farm in Iowa

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Blakely: doesn't matter.

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Anyway, he had like these pets

that he would accidentally

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Hurt in wanting to love them.

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Yeah, sure.

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Ben: Sure.

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Casi: So, and another piece is we would

watch like America's Funniest Home Videos.

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Sure.

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And everybody would laugh so

hard when people would get hurt.

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And I just never found that to be funny.

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And then, so then I

would get a lot of heat.

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Oh, yes.

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Because like, why aren't you laughing?

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Like you have no sense of

humor, blah, blah, blah.

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I'm like those poor people.

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Blakely: Well, yeah.

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Like how hurt are they?

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Yeah.

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And like,

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Casi: did anybody else

talk to him about that?

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Well, like everybody's laughing at you.

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Blakely: Right.

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And so that's a double hit.

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You're hurting.

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You have that empath hurt

for the other person.

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And then you have that vulnerable

exposure of yourself that gets

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picked at in your family too.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Casi: Yeah.

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So that's another key component when

looking back about who I was as a child.

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Sure.

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Ben: Sure.

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Um, Like you could, do you

remember feeling that hurt?

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Or the concern, like, how did

that concern, do you remember

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what that felt like for you?

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Casi: Yeah, I was, one, concerned

for the people who were being

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hurt, right, through the videos.

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But then I was also very

concerned my people around

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me, my family, were laughing.

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Yeah.

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And then it was weird to me when they're

like, well, why aren't you laughing?

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So I felt very, like, I

should be doing this thing.

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Yeah, but it doesn't feel right.

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Ben: Interesting.

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Blakely: I mean, that's a really

early experience of that lonely state.

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Separateness.

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Like it's me and them in my own family.

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Yeah.

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Ben: And, and kind of through

sort of a, uh, justice, you

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want to help fix that injustice.

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But then the power of the

community is telling you, no,

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you're the one that's wrong.

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Damn.

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Like I've, I watched you

advocate for us as students.

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When you get something that you are

passionate about, You sort of attack it.

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I've observed a passion in you to help

other people through advocacy and justice.

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And I'm curious just what personally

has motivated that in you?

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Cause I know that obviously we're

talking about something just naturally

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arising in you as, as a toddler.

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Casi: Yeah, I have a really great

girlfriend and, uh, that I grew

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up with and her and I would always

refer to it as my inner flame.

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Hmm.

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Wow.

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I've always been a very passionate person.

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I'm more of, okay.

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So like I will sit back and observe,

but then if it becomes like.

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I like feel a bubble up within me and

then I can't hold it in any longer.

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Um, then my passion just shines.

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Ben: So I know that you, um,

became a teacher because of some

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teachers that were in your life.

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I know that you became a helper for the

people you help for very specific reasons.

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And I'm just curious what you would be.

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Open to sharing with us about those.

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So,

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Casi: I personally was, um,

in mandated court therapy.

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My parents divorced when I was four.

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And so, the court required my

siblings and I to go to therapy.

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And Again, I don't remember all the

exact specifics, but I do always

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remember that therapist was not helpful.

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Like I felt that, um, my siblings

and I have kind of talked about it

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later on and we would kind of mock the

techniques that therapist was using.

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Um, but really what we learned

through that therapy was tell the

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therapist what they want to know.

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So we can wrap it up so we don't

have to go anymore and we can kind

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of do our own thing and it worked.

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I also had some experiences with

school counselors who weren't great

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and caused more harm than good.

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So some of those Things, those experiences

in my life, I think helped me want

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to protect others who maybe didn't

always have a voice of their own.

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And sometimes I feel like I

do the work I do because I

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didn't always have that voice.

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And I wish maybe somebody could

have had that voice for me when I

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didn't have that voice at that time.

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Ben: Where did you find?

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It seems to me like you're talking

about there wasn't a sense of safety.

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Yeah, there wasn't a sense of trust

and That mainly the adults in your

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life were not very trustworthy until

I found the adults that work Exactly.

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That's where I'm going with this.

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So that paired with your inner fire Yeah.

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Seems super, super important.

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Yeah.

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Casi: So I had a lot of

great teachers growing up.

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Um, one in particular was one of

my high school teachers who was

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actually one of my fax teachers who

inspired me to become a fax teacher.

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Her name is Mrs.

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Still.

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Shout out to Mrs.

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Still.

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And

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Ben: tell me what fax is.

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Family and consumer sciences.

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Family and consumer science.

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Okay.

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Okay.

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Yeah.

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I'm like,

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Casi: so we talked about

like family systems.

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They teach

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Ben: you how to use a fax machine.

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Blakely: Not quite.

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Uh,

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Ben: so we talked a lot about.

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like home ec.

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Oh, that's like calling

a school counselor.

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Oh, dang.

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Sorry, sorry, sorry.

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I just offended people.

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My bad.

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It's ignorance.

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Teach me.

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Teach me.

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Yeah.

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It's all right.

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Sorry.

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I forgive you.

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Um, family and consumer science.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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Casi: So we talked a lot about family

systems and she was just the type

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of educator who saw you as a human

and not just a student, who knew you

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had stuff and was willing to listen.

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Like I truly felt, heard,

seen, accepted, loved by her.

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Um, she was the type of educator who

would open up her doors before or after

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class time, um, who would check in on you.

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Yeah.

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Um, so I really appreciate her.

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I also had a school counselor when

I was in high school, uh, Mrs.

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Shea.

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Shout out to Mrs.

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Shea, um, who just kind

of helped you see the big

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Blakely: picture.

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Oh, yeah.

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Casi: And kind of got you thinking

outside of a small town, Iowa.

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Ben: Mrs.

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Still helped you feel safe.

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Yes.

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And honored your individuality and saw

you as a unique human being and not

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just a student she needed to teach.

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Correct.

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She didn't see you as a transaction.

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Yeah.

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Uh, she opened her door to you,

both before and after, uh, class.

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She created a sense of safety

in the class, a sense of

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well being and belonging.

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And, Mrs...

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Mrs.

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Shea.

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Mrs.

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Blakely: Shea.

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Mrs.

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Shea showed you that you weren't trapped.

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Ben: Yeah.

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Oh, yeah.

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She

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Blakely: also...

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That's a bit familiar to me, too.

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Ben: Yeah, yeah.

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Small town Iowa, small town

Oklahoma is about the same.

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Small

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Blakely: towns are small

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Ben: towns.

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Yeah.

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How did Mrs.

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Shea help you see outside

of the small town?

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Outside of the farm?

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Casi: Yeah, she...

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When I was in high school and kind

of dating myself here a little bit,

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um, college credit was just kind

of becoming a thing in high school.

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And she really advocated for us

to start taking those electives.

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So we would kind of have a

step up, um, exploring options.

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I remember, um, talking to her about like

what your passions were and different

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fields that you could pursue, but

also talking to her about the heavy.

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Oh yeah.

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And I really appreciated.

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That she did not give me the same

experience as other helping professionals,

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where she kept that confidential,

um, and she really kind of helped

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empower me, which I really appreciated.

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Actually, um, a group of my friends, when

she gave birth to her first child, we

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drove up to see her, um, in the hospital.

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Oh, cool.

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Yeah.

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Blakely: Yeah.

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That's

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Ben: amazing.

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Yeah.

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Wow.

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That's cool.

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What was it that you started to

see outside, like, what were you

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shooting for, like, after high school?

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Because she started getting you prepared

to do college in high school, so you

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would go into college with some credit.

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Like, what were you aiming for?

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Was it to escape being trapped?

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Was it...

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To learn how to help people to

become a teacher like what was that?

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Casi: Yeah, so she also Like I

spent most of my senior year at

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the elementary Learn like working

with the PE teacher, which I loved.

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Hmm loved I also Became like a mentor

to some fifth grade students, which

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I really loved too So I knew I wanted

to work with people in some capacity.

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Yeah, I just didn't know necessarily

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Blakely: What capacity or what

capacity was even available to you?

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Yeah.

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Casi: Yeah.

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I mean, there are so many options

and I'm even now I'm like, Oh,

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that would have been a cool career.

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Right.

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Right.

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Blakely: I feel like I

still stumble into that.

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Right.

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Casi: Um, so I think that was

a huge component, just that

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exposure, that early exposure.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And taking those experiences

and helping guide my direction.

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I will also say I did talk about Mrs.

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Shea and Mrs.

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Still.

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Like I had phenomenal coaches, um,

there was a family who I babysat for who

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became my family, my friends, parents.

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I mean, there was a lot of solid people

in my world that I would take little

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beats and bits and pieces from, um, that

I truly loved and admired about them.

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Blakely: I think it's always remarkable

when, especially with how young we

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can be, when we start to feel the

gap and what we need, like not being

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presented to us and how we go in

pursuit of it and find it anyway.

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It's impressive.

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Ben: My guess is that most of us had pain

that we don't want other people to go

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through or that if they are going through,

we can be sort of a safe spot, uh, a.

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Kind of respite, uh, a guide to healing

and I don't know, and that seems like

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that's just on my mind right now.

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Casi: Yeah.

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Like I always think back to one of

my favorite children's books and

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it's we're going on a bear hunt.

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Yeah.

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You can't go over it, you can't go

under it, you gotta go through it.

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And I want to be the person who

goes through it with those people.

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Ben: You want to go on the bear hunt.

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Casi: I want to go on

the bear hunt with them.

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I don't want them to feel lonely.

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Blakely: Well, I mean,

it's, it's a worthy pursuit.

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I just, I don't know how people find

themselves in healing places if you

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haven't had to heal, because if you've

had to heal, then you know, the value of

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healing, you know, the experience of it.

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And you, many of us, I

think, feel drawn to be.

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A part of that over and over and

over again, even if it's not for

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ourselves, just to be alongside the

process of going on the bear hunt.

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We don't have to shoot the bear.

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I don't have to do all of

it, but I can bear witness.

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Ben: I'm curious what you

guys think about this.

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So I was listening to an

episode of On Purpose with Jay

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Shetty and Trevor Noah was on.

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He was asking Trevor like, where is home?

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How do you know what home is?

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And having to move a lot of different

places in his life and how not being

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able to not knowing what it's like to

lose a place and then get familiar with

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a new place is it expands your mind.

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I, I remember going, Oh

my God, this is what I do.

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as a helper.

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And what I've learned from a very deep,

rich place, I go on journeys all the

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time to learn and be curious and to not

grab on and control or judge what I'm

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hearing, but just to say, this is what is.

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I don't know why it is in your life.

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I don't know why the pain has happened.

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I don't know where you've come from, but

I'm here to learn and that exploration and

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the openness necessary to become familiar

with what you're not familiar with is

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rare, is courageous, is courageous.

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:

The thing that, This is the

thing that makes the traditional

435

:

self care shit shitty.

436

:

I feel manipulated and I feel

advertised to and sold to and as if

437

:

I am a product or a consumer that

just needs to consume a product.

438

:

Whether that's an actual product that

I have to purchase or if that's a

439

:

training I have to buy or a retreat I

have to attend, uh, or a coping skill I

440

:

need to get better at whatever that is.

441

:

You don't see me as a human.

442

:

You're not willing to see me as a full,

complex, wonderful, but also shitty

443

:

person, like, and so when I ask for

real feedback, I am not asking for

444

:

praise, I am asking for, see me as,

Oh, that is what this is all about.

445

:

Like this is what we are here for.

446

:

I say, don't put me in a box.

447

:

You were saying earlier, Casi, this

is off mic, but you were saying

448

:

that, um, you're no princess.

449

:

Something to that effect.

450

:

. Um-huh . And I don't know where exactly

where I'm going with this, but it really

451

:

is sort of like being, not being seen.

452

:

And I just want to ask you to

comment on that experience.

453

:

Casi: I think people, society tells you

at a very young age who you're supposed

454

:

to be, and they do put you in a box.

455

:

And when you don't want to be in that

box, you make others uncomfortable.

456

:

And sometimes making people

feel uncomfortable isn't safe.

457

:

Whether it be physical safety

or emotional safety, financially

458

:

safe, like all the ways.

459

:

So I

460

:

was talking about, um, my

daughter's a lot like me to

461

:

where we're not a certain thing.

462

:

And I have taught her.

463

:

Ben: A princess.

464

:

Yeah, you be.

465

:

You're not a certain princess.

466

:

Casi: Yeah.

467

:

Mm hmm.

468

:

Like, you can be who you want to be.

469

:

And if you want to dress up and look

beautiful one day and heels, you do that.

470

:

Go for it.

471

:

If you want to play football in the

backyard and get muddy, you do that.

472

:

Mm hmm.

473

:

Ben: Like, don't put me in a box.

474

:

Be fucking powerful.

475

:

Yeah.

476

:

Yeah.

477

:

Like, let me be who I am.

478

:

When

479

:

Blakely: we talk so much about living a

good life and a lot of that is prescribed

480

:

to us of what that is defined by.

481

:

And that's what I think are just the

trappings of those expectations of

482

:

consumerism, of capitalism, of you

have to buy another thing in order

483

:

to be what you're supposed to be.

484

:

We, like, raise your hand if you've worked

in a space where we call our clients,

485

:

customers, consumers, that they're

literally here in mental health treatment.

486

:

Consuming, gobbling up resources.

487

:

We need to just remind

everyone all the time of that.

488

:

That this is a thing, a tangible

thing that is being handed

489

:

out to these sick people.

490

:

Like, we don't have to be a certain thing.

491

:

Ben: Compassion is not between

the helper and the wounded,

492

:

I think is how PEMA says it.

493

:

It's between equals.

494

:

Which is, to me, doesn't mean that

you can't be a helper, but it's that

495

:

you are a human helping a human first.

496

:

Yep.

497

:

And your expertise or

your skill comes second.

498

:

And, like, we're not mechanics.

499

:

We're not mechanics.

500

:

Someone

501

:

Blakely: asked me the other day

in this, like, what would you do?

502

:

Like it was that tone, Ben, what

would you do if you found out

503

:

a client had been lying to you?

504

:

This is someone who's

not in our profession,

505

:

Ben: by the way.

506

:

I'm like, do you want me to answer?

507

:

I laugh.

508

:

This is what I do all the time.

509

:

Hold on.

510

:

Blakely: I happen to like

working with people with

511

:

borderline personality disorder.

512

:

First and foremost, lies are there.

513

:

They're just there because everybody

likes getting an A in therapy.

514

:

So fibs happen.

515

:

Forgetfulness happens.

516

:

You forget why you're there.

517

:

Even if I ask you, how's your week been?

518

:

Oh, good.

519

:

Uhhuh.

520

:

We're so programmed that even in the

therapy room, people will give you, right?

521

:

The canned, easy, simple, nice answer.

522

:

Well,

523

:

Casi: it's also hard.

524

:

The work is hard.

525

:

Yeah!

526

:

And, and sometimes I don't feel like it.

527

:

Blakely: So, I'm fine.

528

:

Don't ask more because

I don't have the energy.

529

:

I'm fine.

530

:

Like, lies are so many different shades

that this question just blew me away.

531

:

And the intensity of how they were

asking, like, I don't have the authority

532

:

to make people tell me the truth.

533

:

They tell me what they tell me.

534

:

Right.

535

:

Sometimes I challenge it

and sometimes I go with it.

536

:

Right.

537

:

It depends on the context.

538

:

Huge context of me being

a part of their life.

539

:

Ben: Yeah.

540

:

There was a, a teacher.

541

:

Who was it?

542

:

Can't remember, but he said

something that was profound to me.

543

:

He said, um, we are not

social change agents.

544

:

And he said, that's, that's a probation

offer and I go, Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

545

:

That's right.

546

:

That's right.

547

:

I'm not, I'm not here to control you.

548

:

I'm here to show up for you, you

know, and I'll help to prompt the

549

:

way to change, but I'm not here

to, to grab on and to manipulate.

550

:

I don't have truth serum.

551

:

Right.

552

:

And that's, yeah.

553

:

And that like, yeah, I'm not a mechanic.

554

:

I'm not twisting bolts.

555

:

Um, I'm a human.

556

:

I'm a human helper, and very similarly,

like, I got into this work because

557

:

of my own sense of loneliness,

and my own sense of, I don't know,

558

:

knowing that that's a problem.

559

:

And so, um, like a lot of stuff was

happening in the background where I

560

:

didn't know exactly how influential

like addiction and, um, like depression,

561

:

anxiety, ADHD stuff was really happening.

562

:

Like it was, it was all influential from

my family and I didn't realize really

563

:

I'm still learning about how that is.

564

:

Influential in like lineage, not just,

not just like my immediate family stuff.

565

:

But yeah, like, just the, there's

a problem, I can sense it, um, I

566

:

don't like it when it happens to me.

567

:

I'm going to help the people, and I think

that this, this, we have this sense of

568

:

willingness to go into the bear hunt.

569

:

The willingness to go into the burning

building, the willingness to go into

570

:

the scary, uh, different ways of living

and thinking, and I think that it's not

571

:

really known how disorienting that can be.

572

:

Um, like, there's no fire to burn you.

573

:

Where there's nothing that you can, you

can see, I can't explain, hey, it's like

574

:

going into a fire, where, and a person

understand, oh, I understand heat, I

575

:

understand how, how hot fire can get,

that would cause me to burn, and it would

576

:

cause a scar, and it would cause a lot of

external problems that are easily visible,

577

:

but we're not, the things that I have gone

through, like the compassion fatigue, That

578

:

I've experienced, the, the trauma, the

secondary traumatic stress, the nightmares

579

:

of the nightmares, the physical sensations

that I wake up with out of sleep.

580

:

Um, that's not easily conveyable.

581

:

Like, it's really difficult.

582

:

And I think that's why the,

the, this is just another reason

583

:

why the canned self care shit.

584

:

Is shit, right?

585

:

Like, it is very difficult to, to

heal this like willingness to go

586

:

get hurt to help someone and how

twisty that can make our minds.

587

:

And our perspectives of life.

588

:

Your dad is an educator, right?

589

:

Blakely: You, you just talked about

this, like going into people's minds in

590

:

almost like an academic kind of sense,

which is a Ben mode kind of thing.

591

:

That's, that's a Ben thing.

592

:

But follow me.

593

:

Yeah.

594

:

Where did the bear hunt song

or book come from for you?

595

:

Like the very first time I think after

I had kids and you're using the The

596

:

bear hunt, something tied directly

to childhood, your own children, your

597

:

like role in identity as a mother.

598

:

I talk about it as going

into the burning building.

599

:

My early influences being the observations

I had of helpers was my dad was a fireman.

600

:

And so like the toll that would take

on him and also the intensity and the

601

:

excitement that he would have from it.

602

:

And the, this rule smelt like,

I have very, very, very specific

603

:

associations with that description.

604

:

And so even to take the work that we're

doing, the, the analogies that we use

605

:

to describe how intense it is to try to

get someone else to connect with what

606

:

we, what we feel when we're in that that

intimate space with someone else that

607

:

we're helping someone innocent, someone

in pain, someone in these, These, these

608

:

states of being that so many of us want

to cringe and hide and tell ourselves

609

:

we're invincible to that we're there

with, we even hold within ourselves

610

:

the descriptions based on the things

that we personally feel so intensely

611

:

close to that have been such intense

influences on us in a lifelong way.

612

:

Like, did you always want to be a mom?

613

:

Did you know that that, that

specific nurturing piece was in you?

614

:

Alongside the flame.

615

:

Like, you're tying the things together.

616

:

This is how we know

that this is who we are.

617

:

It's not just what we do.

618

:

Ooh!

619

:

And I'm just really, really

struck by the ways that we...

620

:

That was beautiful.

621

:

It was, it gave me chills as everyone

was talking about it, and I realized

622

:

what was coming together to me.

623

:

Goosebumps!

624

:

Yeah.

625

:

Cause when we talk about this,

I always go back to this, this

626

:

childhood place of like, I can

smell smoke when we talk about it.

627

:

When my dad comes in the house.

628

:

And he's been out like

all night at a fire.

629

:

It's a sensation that is always with me.

630

:

Probably leads us into the next

phase of this conversation.

631

:

Like, what is...

632

:

What is your wiring?

633

:

What is your system?

634

:

What is you, as you launch into it and

you realize the realities of working

635

:

in the public school system, I'm going

to guess, how did you have to adjust?

636

:

How did, what did you, what

life raft did you cling to first

637

:

when it starts to get real?

638

:

Casi: So when I'm with students

going through the mud, um, my first

639

:

and foremost priority is them.

640

:

But.

641

:

I also have a team and I rely

heavily on my team now and your

642

:

team is solid great things get done.

643

:

Absolutely.

644

:

Kids get helped and that's what matters.

645

:

That's why we're in the business we're in.

646

:

And yes, it kind of takes a toll on

you at times, but it was worth it.

647

:

All the hard was worth it

because that student got the

648

:

help they needed and that's

649

:

Ben: all that matters.

650

:

I'm thinking about a case that you talked

about once that, I mean, literally you

651

:

were getting beat up almost every day.

652

:

How did you get through that?

653

:

Like, what kept you there,

um, kept you going back?

654

:

Because I remember telling you,

like, literally I wanted you to stop.

655

:

I wanted you to stop

getting hurt every day.

656

:

And you were like...

657

:

No.

658

:

That's

659

:

great.

660

:

Blakely: I've seen Ben leaned way too

far in on one of those cases before.

661

:

It happens to all of us.

662

:

Right.

663

:

Even as you're talking, I can think of

like the clients that I overworked for

664

:

just pissed about it because I'm gonna.

665

:

But I'm curious what your answer is,

but we've all been in that, like,

666

:

I'm going to push through this.

667

:

I don't care what anybody

thinks or does or what my own

668

:

boundaries should probably be.

669

:

Ben: I'm not going to stop.

670

:

Yeah.

671

:

Blakely: Yeah.

672

:

It's a mission.

673

:

Casi: Who else would show up for the kid?

674

:

I cared so deeply about that

kid and still do to this day.

675

:

Still check up on him.

676

:

Yep.

677

:

Like, and the system we're in, we're

not really built to handle some

678

:

of the cases that are presenting.

679

:

Right.

680

:

Um, so in this situation, we were getting

the student the resources they needed.

681

:

We were getting the help they needed.

682

:

It's just a long process.

683

:

Um, and not everybody is capable

of doing the things, right.

684

:

Blakely: So process itself, I mean, even

the patients of how long that can take.

685

:

Right.

686

:

Casi: And when students are physically

violent, not everybody can handle that.

687

:

And so.

688

:

How's it going to go on the bear hunt?

689

:

Blakely: We're already on the hunt.

690

:

By the time I'm getting kicked,

we're already on the hunt.

691

:

Yeah.

692

:

Casi: I'm already there.

693

:

And you know, honestly, my thought process

with all of that is if I'm there when

694

:

it starts, I want to be there when it

finishes because that restorative work

695

:

after the fact is so critical for me and

our relationship and for that student.

696

:

Like that part is essential.

697

:

Ben: How is that essential

698

:

Casi: for you?

699

:

I think that the whole process, right?

700

:

Like it's truly going

through the messiness of it.

701

:

But after the fact I'm showing that kid

I'm here, we made it through together.

702

:

I love you.

703

:

Let's do the repair work.

704

:

We're going to start fresh.

705

:

I want them to know that through

the heart of it, I'm not giving up

706

:

Ben: on them.

707

:

I know how that story ended where it

did come out on a really amazing side

708

:

and that you, you two were able to

have such a wonderful last day for him.

709

:

I think you were saying that you just like

had a really special day for him and, and

710

:

you walked him out to his mom and you were

holding hands, just not saying anything.

711

:

He

712

:

Casi: said to me, I want to give you half

my heart so you'll always remember me.

713

:

like, whoa, waterworks,

714

:

Blakely: but

715

:

Casi: like, if you only knew.

716

:

And so, yes, when we were walking and

like, it was such a fun, amazing day.

717

:

And he told his mom, this

is the best day ever.

718

:

And that's the goal.

719

:

Like I wanted him to feel so much love.

720

:

And he told me that, um, he's

like, you know, I love you.

721

:

Right.

722

:

And the waterworks again.

723

:

So.

724

:

The things that we went through,

I mean, like on my birthday,

725

:

he punched me in my face.

726

:

Blakely: Sorry.

727

:

I go from like, Oh, I'm a little like

teary to, yeah, punched in the face.

728

:

This, I mean, that's, this is what we do.

729

:

Yep.

730

:

Yeah.

731

:

All that.

732

:

Spit and then you get punched.

733

:

Yeah.

734

:

Casi: So like, we've been through the

hard together and it didn't matter.

735

:

Like I was still going to show up for him.

736

:

If anybody was working with him, I

wanted to be the one working with him.

737

:

I wanted to be going through the heart

with him because I knew I could love

738

:

him on the other end and throughout.

739

:

Not everybody has that capability.

740

:

Ben: This is what's, I don't

know, it's very special.

741

:

It's incredibly special.

742

:

Blakely: Like that last day was,

was a, was a period on the end of a

743

:

very long sentence it sounds like.

744

:

Like there was a lot of things

that led up to that, but you

745

:

weren't there for that day.

746

:

Like you're, you're not

in it because of that day.

747

:

You're not in it because he loves you.

748

:

You're not in it because he, you know,

like that connecting moment happened.

749

:

That's part of it.

750

:

The whole process of being able to see

him through and not abandon him at his

751

:

worst and show him that he can be loved

and repair and fix and not be just

752

:

completely ruined by a bad shitty day.

753

:

That's the thing.

754

:

It's the day you get punched in

the face that matters just as much

755

:

as the day that he holds your hand

and tells you that you're amazing.

756

:

Absolutely.

757

:

Ben: Is that sort of like a key,

key thing to stay quote unquote

758

:

professional through this whole thing?

759

:

For the reason that I want to be in this

work or that I am in this work is because

760

:

of an experience of loving responsibility.

761

:

And as I've said that, I've, as I

listened to myself saying that, I

762

:

want to just make clear that it is

not that I love responsibility, okay?

763

:

That I feel, I feel a state,

764

:

I feel a state of loving, A state of

loving responsibility in terms of I

765

:

cannot help but feel responsible because

of the love I experience and isn't the

766

:

typical professional language that you

hear, but it's definitely a personal

767

:

experience of this is why I'm here.

768

:

And I think that this whole

conversation we've been talking about.

769

:

Like professional and the

personal in being intertwined

770

:

and we cannot untwine it.

771

:

Yeah, right.

772

:

Casi: So I feel like we care so deeply,

which is our greatest strength, but

773

:

also maybe our kryptonite as well,

774

:

Blakely: but that

775

:

Casi: goes to the

776

:

Blakely: self care piece,

777

:

Casi: which how do we maintain

778

:

Blakely: it?

779

:

Well, and it's, it's hard to have

a, it's hard to have a clear view

780

:

of it when there's so much mixed

messaging and the feedback we,

781

:

we get about those deep feelings.

782

:

Like not only do you feel deeply and

not only is that helpful to a lot of

783

:

people, it's also very inconvenient to

people and you're supposed to pack it

784

:

up, take it away, do some self care and

come back when you can be cool again.

785

:

Right.

786

:

When you need, as a, as a person who

is, is stepping up to other people's

787

:

needs, when you need, people freak out.

788

:

Yeah.

789

:

It's like they feel like.

790

:

That's not your role.

791

:

It's not your role.

792

:

And if I'm looking to you for help

and you need help, then I need

793

:

help so much I can't even manage.

794

:

I can't even imagine what all I

need for help and holding all of

795

:

that is just really burdensome.

796

:

Ben: I also feel like when we bring

emotions and problems to our colleagues,

797

:

we're always all coming at it in terms

of like, well, I have to fix this

798

:

problem when really actually I just need.

799

:

Someone to treat me like

a whole human being.

800

:

You know, I don't need

you to fix my problems.

801

:

I, I'm not looking for a mechanic.

802

:

I'm looking for a listening ear.

803

:

You

804

:

Casi: want to

805

:

Ben: be seen.

806

:

You want to be heard.

807

:

Exactly.

808

:

It doesn't mean that I need you to invest,

like, tons of emotion into my problem.

809

:

That is just, I, I want you

to be curious and not come at

810

:

me with all, like, your tools.

811

:

Blakely: Quit trying to dial up how fast

I can get past whatever the thing is.

812

:

Ben: Exactly.

813

:

Exactly.

814

:

Like, I don't need, I don't

need your feelings chart.

815

:

I don't need your, your.

816

:

I love my feelings chart.

817

:

Yeah, if I'm going through

something and you, ugh.

818

:

Is this

819

:

Blakely: despair?

820

:

Or is this rage?

821

:

But it's a rainbow wheel.

822

:

It's so cute.

823

:

It has little faces on it and everything.

824

:

Ben: Let's face it.

825

:

Casi: No, I think Ben, what you're talking

about, it's a time and place, right?

826

:

Like in the moment,

you're just in the moment.

827

:

You just want to be seen and heard.

828

:

And then afterwards we can talk about.

829

:

What feeling

830

:

Ben: that was right after we get, um,

like licenses and diplomas, which we

831

:

treat each other like we're just a

piece of paper or just a credential.

832

:

We're not a person anymore.

833

:

Like, I don't need to prove to you.

834

:

What my credentials are, but also

I'm more than just that, right?

835

:

Yeah.

836

:

Casi: I will say, I feel there are some

people who do need those credentials and

837

:

want to share them out with the world.

838

:

Yeah.

839

:

Um, and it's kind of like a competition.

840

:

Uh, I know you guys had that

podcast earlier about competition.

841

:

Ben: Yeah, I was going to ask.

842

:

Um,

843

:

Casi: but I feel like sometimes.

844

:

That it could be

competitive for some people.

845

:

Blakely: Absolutely, yeah.

846

:

But I also, there's so much

performative, competitive

847

:

Casi: stuff going on.

848

:

And I will say, after I earned my Ph.

849

:

D.

850

:

What I found really interesting

is that was threatening to others.

851

:

Oh,

852

:

Blakely: absolutely.

853

:

Casi: That I was not prepared for.

854

:

Yeah.

855

:

And it was so funny because

we just talked with one of our

856

:

professors the other day and I said

that, and she's like, well, yeah.

857

:

And I was like, pfft.

858

:

Ben: Why didn't you say something then?

859

:

Why didn't you didn't mention this.

860

:

Right.

861

:

Why wasn't that a lecture that you gave?

862

:

Like.

863

:

I've re

864

:

Casi: received many.

865

:

A few.

866

:

Where was this one?

867

:

Blakely: Right.

868

:

Exactly.

869

:

Like, here's remiss.

870

:

Yeah.

871

:

We need it anyway.

872

:

Along the road anyway.

873

:

Casi: So I do feel like

it's very important to them.

874

:

Blakely: Like, it is what you

make of it, like anything else.

875

:

If that piece of paper burns, you

still have what you got out of it.

876

:

When they hand that to you,

that's not the end point.

877

:

That's not some like, I have

the exact amount of knowledge

878

:

that I will need going forward.

879

:

I won't forget a single piece of it.

880

:

I won't add to it.

881

:

This, I got this and it's the end.

882

:

It's the beginning, the middle and the

end right here in one piece of paper.

883

:

We say that so often

about the piece of paper.

884

:

And I think we just have to let

it go and be the, the versions

885

:

of what we're going to be.

886

:

I can tell you my credentials if

it gives you some sort of comfort

887

:

Ben: as a client.

888

:

Interesting.

889

:

It reminds me of, like, the conversation

we had with Annis, where she was talking

890

:

about the commitment to put herself

on the side of change that she wants

891

:

to be on, and letting go of this idea

of being able to control it, and I

892

:

mean, I think it's just a beautiful

blend of acceptance and change.

893

:

And that's part of, for me, self

care, just loving myself and

894

:

knowing and honoring my limits.

895

:

Blakely: Well, we're, I mean,

we're improvement oriented.

896

:

Yeah.

897

:

What isn't about improvement?

898

:

Every, like, we have reality shows that

are based on improving how you look.

899

:

We have Entire channels based on

improving how your house looks.

900

:

We have, I mean, you're

supposed to upgrade your car.

901

:

You're supposed to upgrade your phone.

902

:

The constant, like, improvement mindset

is ours as well because people land in our

903

:

seats seeking some sort of improvement.

904

:

Casi: But also the whole

self care industry.

905

:

That's there, right?

906

:

Because then we just feel we need this,

we need this, we need this, we need

907

:

this, because this is what we're being

told we have to take care of ourselves,

908

:

but we're really just spiraling deeper

because those things are very superficial.

909

:

Absolutely.

910

:

Like when I hear the term self care,

I immediately go to like, that is

911

:

just one more thing that I'm not

good at and I'm not enough at.

912

:

Yes.

913

:

Right.

914

:

But then, it really determines, like

it really depends on my lens of self

915

:

care, not what the world is telling

916

:

Blakely: me.

917

:

Exactly.

918

:

Ben: When it comes to being patient

with ourselves and understanding

919

:

ourselves and loving ourselves, honoring

our limits, honoring our strengths,

920

:

it is, it is frustrating to me.

921

:

And ironically, a problem that I have of

not really embracing what I do well, or

922

:

even wanting to talk about what I do well.

923

:

This whole conversation, a lot of

times, Casi, you've talked about other

924

:

people and not what you do well, right?

925

:

Or the importance it is for you

or how real courageous you are and

926

:

willing to go on that bear hunt.

927

:

How amazing.

928

:

What a commitment to that child

you gave that changed his life and

929

:

changed yours in, in, in retro.

930

:

He's holding your hand and stops you

and goes, you know I love you, right?

931

:

Can you come see me?

932

:

Can you come visit me?

933

:

Can you come with me?

934

:

Those kinds of things, you know,

you made a, you made a difference

935

:

and, and you also know how hard

it was to make that difference.

936

:

Like the, the nights of coming

home and treating your bruises.

937

:

Casi: I'll also say that's where having

a team, and I know you guys have talked

938

:

about this in your other podcasts, but

like really having that connection with

939

:

people, the people you can go to and

lean in with who understand the work.

940

:

That was probably the.

941

:

Best soul care during that process.

942

:

Um,

943

:

Ben: why do you think, why not that?

944

:

And why not like Peloton or, um, it's,

945

:

Casi: it's not the

superficial stuff, right?

946

:

It's the stuff that nurtures our soul.

947

:

So connecting with people,

we've talked about yoga.

948

:

Meditation, really looking

inward to ourselves and sitting

949

:

with ourselves in the silence.

950

:

That is where the work is done.

951

:

Ben: Six hours a day, I do therapy, right?

952

:

Six hours a day, I'm trying to

solve problems that I really don't

953

:

have the solution for, right?

954

:

Like.

955

:

I've never lived a lot of these

problems, but I am trying to imagine

956

:

what it's like, empathize what it's

like, run it through my lens of my

957

:

theoretical stuff and the techniques

I could use, and I'm here for you.

958

:

And that's a part of the answer.

959

:

It's not just me being a technician and

giving you the thing so you can fix the

960

:

problem, because it's not that simple.

961

:

When there's no easy answer

I need people to turn to.

962

:

Casi: Even when I brought the case, when

I first shared the case with you, by that

963

:

time, it was almost a year into the case.

964

:

Ben: And I was in the

middle of the pandemic.

965

:

Yeah.

966

:

Like I

967

:

Casi: was just exhausted

and I was like crying.

968

:

I was a blubbery mess, like

sharing this whole case.

969

:

And I don't know.

970

:

I don't know what more to do.

971

:

I can help.

972

:

And honestly, I didn't look for,

I wasn't looking for answers.

973

:

I was just looking for the hand.

974

:

Ben: And I wanted to jump in

and start like, You gotta leave.

975

:

Blakely: We're used to consultation.

976

:

Yeah.

977

:

We're used to asking, What the

hell am I supposed to do here?

978

:

Like, that's usually kind of what

we do, and you have 30 minutes,

979

:

because we just have two cases.

980

:

You leave with almost feeling like,

Oh, that's just a list of stuff

981

:

that, um, a more list of stuff I'm

not doing, or that I'm doing wrong,

982

:

or that I should have done six

983

:

Casi: months ago, I guess.

984

:

Once again, I'm not enough.

985

:

Blakely: Of course that's defeating.

986

:

Mm hmm.

987

:

That's not validating.

988

:

That's not encouraging.

989

:

And yet it's those connections

that are the thing.

990

:

They're the thing that you need.

991

:

And so when those are hard, when you're

watching funniest videos with your family

992

:

and they don't get it the way you get it,

when you're sitting with your team and

993

:

struggling and breaking, breaking apart.

994

:

And they don't see it, then it's a,

it's a similar loneliness, right?

995

:

But when they do get it,

996

:

Casi: Yeah, exactly.

997

:

When they do get it, it is everything.

998

:

And I kind of referenced this earlier,

but like, you're just running, right?

999

:

You don't have the capacity

to stop and feel it all and

:

00:50:46,990 --> 00:50:48,140

to really work through it all.

:

00:50:48,750 --> 00:50:54,200

And I feel for four years during my

PhD program, I was in survival mode.

:

00:50:55,360 --> 00:51:00,870

And so I didn't always feel like I was

working a full time job going through

:

00:51:00,870 --> 00:51:03,210

the PhD program, being a single mom.

:

00:51:04,445 --> 00:51:07,485

Like I didn't always take the time.

:

00:51:08,575 --> 00:51:09,505

Blakely: Not on the list.

:

00:51:09,655 --> 00:51:10,105

Casi: Right.

:

00:51:10,265 --> 00:51:11,395

I didn't, I didn't have time.

:

00:51:12,325 --> 00:51:14,374

So I just didn't have the capacity.

:

00:51:14,385 --> 00:51:17,405

Blakely: The most efficient

thing though, is to put it aside.

:

00:51:17,774 --> 00:51:18,034

Right.

:

00:51:18,064 --> 00:51:18,785

That's just true.

:

00:51:18,835 --> 00:51:19,065

Yeah.

:

00:51:19,905 --> 00:51:22,504

Casi: Um, one, I think that's

really important that we need

:

00:51:22,504 --> 00:51:26,145

to have those discussions, which

that's what this is right here.

:

00:51:26,535 --> 00:51:29,715

Listening to your podcast has

been very beneficial for me.

:

00:51:30,765 --> 00:51:32,415

Um, sharing.

:

00:51:32,765 --> 00:51:36,245

Your experiences, but sometimes we're

not always, it's not always acceptable

:

00:51:36,615 --> 00:51:42,134

for us to share these experiences

and I feel we need to move away

:

00:51:42,135 --> 00:51:44,005

from that because we're feeling it.

:

00:51:44,095 --> 00:51:49,485

I don't know one pulper that does

not feel this at some capacity.

:

00:51:49,495 --> 00:51:53,765

And if we don't talk about it, then

there's this big internal ball of,

:

00:51:54,555 --> 00:51:55,915

Oh my gosh, am I doing it right?

:

00:51:55,925 --> 00:51:56,765

I'm not

:

00:51:56,795 --> 00:51:57,425

Ben: enough.

:

00:51:57,605 --> 00:51:59,155

I'm not professional enough.

:

00:51:59,735 --> 00:52:01,375

Oh, I'm going to get in trouble for this.

:

00:52:01,385 --> 00:52:01,565

And the

:

00:52:01,565 --> 00:52:05,685

Casi: shame, guilt, the,

all the things that occur.

:

00:52:05,695 --> 00:52:13,185

So I have really learned to really

start talking to others about

:

00:52:13,205 --> 00:52:16,144

the experience, which is hard.

:

00:52:16,365 --> 00:52:17,605

Like it's hard being vulnerable.

:

00:52:17,605 --> 00:52:21,575

It's hard finding the right

people to talk with as well.

:

00:52:22,295 --> 00:52:25,035

Blakely: Or because plenty of people

are in the place that you were in

:

00:52:25,555 --> 00:52:30,755

two years ago, three years ago,

whatever, that you really are putting

:

00:52:30,755 --> 00:52:34,374

on hold a lot of the thinking and

the feeling and the processing,

:

00:52:34,715 --> 00:52:37,054

because I have three main roles.

:

00:52:37,384 --> 00:52:41,720

I don't have room for another role to

be like, Woo woo taking care of me.

:

00:52:41,830 --> 00:52:42,880

I'm going to have to hold on.

:

00:52:42,910 --> 00:52:46,760

And there are just seasons of life that

were there that we, we can't make the

:

00:52:46,770 --> 00:52:48,460

real time to have a real conversation.

:

00:52:48,740 --> 00:52:51,920

Sometimes we can listen to other

people have the conversation.

:

00:52:53,690 --> 00:52:56,679

And so making sure that you're cultivating

those people who aren't going to rush

:

00:52:56,679 --> 00:53:00,950

you or dismiss you or be so overloaded

with their own stuff that they can't

:

00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:01,630

Ben: hear you.

:

00:53:01,790 --> 00:53:02,110

Yeah.

:

00:53:02,180 --> 00:53:03,490

Like tell you to get a hobby.

:

00:53:04,070 --> 00:53:04,920

Blakely: I tell you to get a hobby

:

00:53:08,170 --> 00:53:11,250

or some other way of making

you feel more lonely and more

:

00:53:11,250 --> 00:53:12,130

like it's your own problem.

:

00:53:12,525 --> 00:53:12,655

Go

:

00:53:12,655 --> 00:53:13,145

Ben: Gulf.

:

00:53:14,655 --> 00:53:15,255

Yeah, why not?

:

00:53:15,255 --> 00:53:15,505

Uh huh.

:

00:53:15,515 --> 00:53:16,355

Can you do that?

:

00:53:16,435 --> 00:53:16,715

Yeah.

:

00:53:16,735 --> 00:53:17,745

Get some fresh air.

:

00:53:18,645 --> 00:53:21,235

I'm not talking about anything particular.

:

00:53:21,635 --> 00:53:21,955

Blakely: No.

:

00:53:21,955 --> 00:53:22,305

Uh uh.

:

00:53:22,425 --> 00:53:25,635

And we have to call out each

other when it's time to really

:

00:53:25,665 --> 00:53:27,015

officially do our own work.

:

00:53:27,065 --> 00:53:29,364

I think that is our responsibility

that we carry around.

:

00:53:29,565 --> 00:53:36,465

And how often do we go to supervisors,

colleagues, other people in our profession

:

00:53:36,485 --> 00:53:39,675

to just talk through kind of what we're

feeling, and they make some pretty serious

:

00:53:39,685 --> 00:53:44,745

suggestions about I think this is your

own trauma history, and maybe you need

:

00:53:44,745 --> 00:53:45,875

to get back to doing your own work?

:

00:53:46,425 --> 00:53:49,445

Or do you need, um, a med adjustment?

:

00:53:49,465 --> 00:53:51,945

Are you sure that you're

managing your own depression,

:

00:53:51,945 --> 00:53:54,465

your own ADHD, your own anxiety?

:

00:53:54,485 --> 00:53:55,695

Are you managing those?

:

00:53:55,695 --> 00:53:59,075

Well, are you taking sleeping medication

since you're having nightmares

:

00:53:59,075 --> 00:54:01,825

about this client that I make you

keep and I won't let you change?

:

00:54:02,295 --> 00:54:08,575

Ben: Well, and that's the thing is the

entire system would be better served.

:

00:54:09,900 --> 00:54:18,550

With humans in mind and that is not

a Reality in most ways because let's

:

00:54:18,550 --> 00:54:19,910

be honest our health care system

:

00:54:19,910 --> 00:54:26,630

Blakely: isn't made with humans in mind

Our school system isn't made with you

:

00:54:28,740 --> 00:54:33,880

Ben: Are you know, this is exactly

what I'm getting at like we want things

:

00:54:33,880 --> 00:54:40,485

that are easily digestible fast And,

and there's no real humanity there.

:

00:54:40,485 --> 00:54:51,105

There's, there's a transaction and there's

like simple sugary quick and that's all.

:

00:54:51,705 --> 00:54:51,945

It's

:

00:54:51,945 --> 00:54:52,255

Blakely: hard.

:

00:54:52,255 --> 00:54:58,935

And so we're talking about unpacking

all, I mean, a huge chunk of our

:

00:54:58,935 --> 00:55:04,245

expectation and our sense of normalcy

in how we deal with each other and

:

00:55:04,245 --> 00:55:08,185

how we deal as professionals and how

we, I mean, it's big, it's really big.

:

00:55:09,345 --> 00:55:10,285

Casi: Here's the deal.

:

00:55:10,495 --> 00:55:13,195

We are humans, and even us as adults.

:

00:55:14,630 --> 00:55:19,440

Want to be seen, want to be heard,

want to have that reassurance that

:

00:55:19,440 --> 00:55:21,400

we are enough, that we are safe.

:

00:55:22,200 --> 00:55:23,870

And how does that occur?

:

00:55:23,920 --> 00:55:26,460

Ben: Yeah, vulnerability, yeah.

:

00:55:27,640 --> 00:55:27,860

Yeah,

:

00:55:28,440 --> 00:55:30,840

Blakely: but I think even some of

the people in our field have fallen

:

00:55:30,840 --> 00:55:34,190

into that trap of transactional

relationships with people.

:

00:55:34,390 --> 00:55:34,650

Sure.

:

00:55:34,730 --> 00:55:38,130

You come to me seeking

information, not seeking healing.

:

00:55:38,370 --> 00:55:39,600

Or resources, yeah.

:

00:55:39,690 --> 00:55:41,270

Exactly, and sometimes that's...

:

00:55:41,590 --> 00:55:42,630

Sometimes we have to do that.

:

00:55:42,660 --> 00:55:43,440

We have to teach people.

:

00:55:43,440 --> 00:55:44,360

We have to show them

:

00:55:44,550 --> 00:55:46,180

Ben: resources, referrals,

:

00:55:46,480 --> 00:55:49,720

Blakely: where to go, what to do,

like the, the bones of it all.

:

00:55:49,760 --> 00:55:52,650

But all of that has to have

some flesh on it or it's, it's

:

00:55:52,660 --> 00:55:56,190

not actually doing anything.

:

00:55:56,660 --> 00:55:56,890

It's not

:

00:55:56,890 --> 00:55:57,350

Casi: living.

:

00:55:58,180 --> 00:56:01,050

But without that flesh, without

that connection, without that

:

00:56:01,840 --> 00:56:06,750

intimacy, it could feel like

they, they just don't want me.

:

00:56:07,170 --> 00:56:07,360

Yeah.

:

00:56:10,560 --> 00:56:10,840

Ben: Right.

:

00:56:12,270 --> 00:56:15,630

You're just, you represent a

problem that I have to solve rather

:

00:56:15,630 --> 00:56:17,600

than a person I can connect with.

:

00:56:17,770 --> 00:56:18,040

Yeah.

:

00:56:18,040 --> 00:56:18,119

Mmhmm.

:

00:56:18,120 --> 00:56:18,420

Dismissive.

:

00:56:19,520 --> 00:56:20,180

Mmhmm.

:

00:56:26,170 --> 00:56:27,360

Blakely: I love this question.

:

00:56:27,620 --> 00:56:28,900

And it doesn't have to be positive.

:

00:56:28,930 --> 00:56:29,920

That's the thing that

we all have to remember.

:

00:56:29,920 --> 00:56:30,760

It doesn't have to be positive.

:

00:56:30,760 --> 00:56:31,530

It's entertaining.

:

00:56:31,560 --> 00:56:32,200

Remarkable.

:

00:56:32,380 --> 00:56:33,380

A representation.

:

00:56:33,675 --> 00:56:39,445

Books, TV movies, and pop culture of a

helper, of a counselor, of a therapist, of

:

00:56:39,445 --> 00:56:41,765

a social worker, of however you define us.

:

00:56:41,795 --> 00:56:45,005

Who do you see as your favorite in pop

:

00:56:45,005 --> 00:56:45,055

Casi: culture?

:

00:56:45,135 --> 00:56:45,525

My favorite.

:

00:56:45,525 --> 00:56:50,005

You know, so I just watched this

TV show called Shrinking on Apple

:

00:56:50,565 --> 00:56:50,665

Blakely: TV.

:

00:56:50,855 --> 00:56:52,305

This one keeps coming up

and I haven't watched it.

:

00:56:52,405 --> 00:56:55,715

Casi: Yeah, so it's truly

about them as humans.

:

00:56:56,055 --> 00:56:56,315

Yeah.

:

00:56:56,315 --> 00:57:00,235

They're therapists, but

it's showing them as humans.

:

00:57:01,205 --> 00:57:05,065

And they're, they practice differently

and sometimes unethically, um,

:

00:57:05,985 --> 00:57:12,125

but it's really showing that human

experience, which is cool to see.

:

00:57:12,215 --> 00:57:12,605

Yeah.

:

00:57:13,335 --> 00:57:16,815

As far as specifically school

counselors, I have not seen

:

00:57:16,815 --> 00:57:18,635

a positive school counselor

:

00:57:21,685 --> 00:57:22,115

ever.

:

00:57:22,215 --> 00:57:25,075

I don't believe they're often referred

to as guidance counselors, which

:

00:57:25,075 --> 00:57:26,815

is a huge no no in our profession.

:

00:57:27,375 --> 00:57:29,235

Um, they're often hurtful.

:

00:57:30,680 --> 00:57:31,720

13 reasons why.

:

00:57:32,130 --> 00:57:32,380

Blakely: Yeah.

:

00:57:32,520 --> 00:57:33,090

Oh.

:

00:57:33,100 --> 00:57:33,960

That one comes to mind really quickly.

:

00:57:34,010 --> 00:57:34,130

Yes.

:

00:57:34,130 --> 00:57:35,350

It's the only one I can think of.

:

00:57:35,360 --> 00:57:35,600

Yeah, I forgot.

:

00:57:35,610 --> 00:57:35,900

Honestly, like,

:

00:57:36,730 --> 00:57:36,980

Casi: in

:

00:57:37,090 --> 00:57:37,680

Blakely: any.

:

00:57:37,700 --> 00:57:40,190

In the book, I think, in the book,

I think it was a little better.

:

00:57:41,670 --> 00:57:44,520

Casi: And, and books and

movies and TV series.

:

00:57:44,810 --> 00:57:48,910

Like there's not a great representation

of a school counselor on what we do,

:

00:57:49,230 --> 00:57:53,280

which is heartbreaking because then

this is like a true representation of

:

00:57:53,280 --> 00:57:55,190

how the world views our profession.

:

00:57:55,870 --> 00:57:58,110

Um, and it, don't get me wrong.

:

00:57:59,390 --> 00:58:02,310

We have a ways to go to

advocate for what we do.

:

00:58:03,020 --> 00:58:07,520

Um, as school counselors, we've

come a long way, but there's

:

00:58:07,520 --> 00:58:08,760

still such a long way to come.

:

00:58:09,300 --> 00:58:11,340

You know, your inner fire.

:

00:58:11,955 --> 00:58:16,265

Is burning bright and is beautiful.

:

00:58:16,275 --> 00:58:17,465

So keep shining sister.

:

00:58:18,715 --> 00:58:23,075

People who do have our inner flame

and who are passionate it's who we

:

00:58:23,075 --> 00:58:25,755

are and we're not going to dim it.

:

00:58:26,525 --> 00:58:27,495

For your comfort.

:

00:58:27,995 --> 00:58:28,085

I

:

00:58:28,155 --> 00:58:29,145

Blakely: haven't found that.

:

00:58:29,455 --> 00:58:34,155

That my efforts to dim it have made

my, or the people who I actually

:

00:58:34,155 --> 00:58:37,155

want to help, lives better.

:

00:58:37,785 --> 00:58:39,785

It makes the lives better of

people I don't really give a

:

00:58:39,785 --> 00:58:40,405

Casi: fuck about anyway.

:

00:58:40,445 --> 00:58:44,015

It's making them comfortable

while you suffer.

:

00:58:44,065 --> 00:58:44,475

Ben: Yep.

:

00:58:44,745 --> 00:58:47,525

Before we got here, that's exactly...

:

00:58:48,175 --> 00:58:49,835

What I was thinking about both of you.

:

00:58:51,495 --> 00:58:55,495

So I'm very happy that she said

that because I was like, I'm just

:

00:58:55,495 --> 00:58:57,205

waiting this whole time going.

:

00:58:57,265 --> 00:58:57,695

Yeah.

:

00:58:57,955 --> 00:58:58,845

Casi: I don't even know you that well.

:

00:58:58,845 --> 00:58:59,585

And I'm like, she's,

:

00:58:59,595 --> 00:59:00,315

Ben: she's my people.

:

00:59:00,325 --> 00:59:01,775

When will the vibe happen?

:

00:59:01,815 --> 00:59:03,315

Cause it's, it's happening.

:

00:59:06,010 --> 00:59:10,470

Well, thank you so much for

having us over, for having

:

00:59:10,470 --> 00:59:11,540

this conversation with us.

:

00:59:11,550 --> 00:59:13,200

It's been so cool.

:

00:59:13,230 --> 00:59:13,540

Thank you.

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