What is pain, really? Is it simply tissue damage or something much more complex? In this episode, I’m breaking down the fascinating science of pain, from how our brains process “danger signals” to why past experiences can completely change the way we feel pain today.

As a physical therapist, I’ve heard pain described in a hundred different ways: burning, sharp, aching, sore. But here’s the thing: pain isn’t actually something our bodies sense. Instead, it’s an output of the brain designed to protect us.

We’ll cover:

• Why pain is not an input, but an output.
• The role of nociceptors in detecting potential threats (mechanical, chemical, and thermal).
• How the brain integrates past experiences, stress, emotions, and cultural beliefs to create pain responses.
• The difference between acute pain and chronic pain, and why the brain can sometimes produce pain without any new injury.
• Central sensitization, hyperalgesia, and allodynia (and what they mean for chronic pain).
• Groundbreaking pain science research, including Dr. Lorimer Moseley’s famous snake story and the protectometer tool.
• Hopeful news: the brain is plastic, meaning pain pathways can actually be rewired and reversed.

By the end of this episode, you’ll understand why two people can experience the same injury so differently, why chronic pain feels so overwhelming, and how we can start to regain control over our pain experience.

✨ Pain is real, but it’s also adaptable. Your brain and body are capable of healing, and understanding the science behind pain is a great first step.

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Research Articles:

https://www.abdn.ac.uk/news/24440/

https://neurosciencenews.com/mindfulness-pain-placebo-27618/

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11559515/ 

https://www.explorationpub.com/Journals/em/Article/1001282

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5799128/ 

https://www.physio-pedia.com/The_Protectometer 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15827919/ 

00:00- 00:17 Intro

00:18- 01:21 Introduction to Pain Science

01:22- 03:44 Understanding Pain: Types and Descriptions

03:45- 04:10 The Brain's Role in Pain Perception

04:11- 06:27 Case Study: Dr. Lorimer Moseley's Snake Bite

06:28- 09:48 How Our Bodies Sense Pain

09:49- 10:24 Safely

10:25- 12:56 How Our Bodies Sense Pain

12:57- 16:55 Acute vs. Chronic Pain

16:56- 22:24 Research Insights and Tools for Managing Pain

22:25- 22:59 Neap

23:00- 26:24 Conclusion and Empowerment

Mentioned in this episode:

Neap

Live Safely Sidekick

This topic is super fascinating

to me and one that I feel like not

2

a lot of people truly understand.

3

So let's chat about the science

behind pain and how our brain

4

actually creates and can rewire pain.

5

Welcome back to Wellness.

6

Fix the Pot.

7

I'm your host, Dr.

8

Kelsey Vic, a board certified orthopedic

doctor of physical therapy and a

9

pelvic floor physical therapist.

10

And I have this conversation a lot

with patients, but I feel like it's

11

very clinical where a lot of the times

people don't truly get this sort of

12

education unless they're going to see.

13

Honestly, a physical therapist or an

allied health provider in general, where

14

their primary care, the physician that

they typically see, usually doesn't have

15

time to get into this super in depth.

16

So a lot of the time, this is the

conversation that I'm having with patients

17

and I wanted to share it with you guys.

18

So my hope is that by educating and

understanding pain on a deeper level,

19

it can either help you as someone

going through pain or maybe even a

20

loved one of yours who's also going

through a situation where their brain is

21

perceiving threat or danger and giving

that output of pain in their body.

22

So let's start from a high level.

23

What even is pain?

24

Have you ever wondered what

the mechanisms are behind pain

25

and how we experience pain?

26

I know a lot of us, we say something's

painful, but if we're able to get a

27

little bit more descriptive, maybe

it's sharp, maybe it's hot, maybe

28

it's a surface that's burned us.

29

Maybe it's a pressure thing.

30

Maybe it's a muscle soreness

or strain sort of pain.

31

Maybe it's more of an

instability type of pain.

32

There's all sorts of different words

in the English language that we use

33

for pain, but pain can be this umbrella

term that when we dive in a little

34

deeper, we can see that there is sharp,

there is hot, there is mechanical, like

35

stretchy pain, there's instability, pain.

36

So pain can mean a wide range

of things to different people.

37

As a pt, I've heard pain described

in a lot of different ways.

38

I have a really good PT friend of

mine, and he started writing down funny

39

things that patients would say to him.

40

And he has his ongoing list.

41

But I feel like the way that patients

and people describe pain and the way

42

that I describe pain when I'm going

through pain, it can be very descriptive.

43

Like authors and writers would be super

impressed with the descriptive adjectives

44

that people use to describe their pain.

45

Even something like, it feels like a

rubber band is just slapping me every

46

time, like I'm stretching it and slapping

my skin every time I've heard that.

47

There are so many ways that people, and

patients specifically describe pain to me.

48

But one commonality between a lot of

people who experience pain is that

49

we always relate pain to physical

damage in the area that is associated

50

with that pain, or in the area that

supplies that area associated with pain.

51

For example, if you have pain in

your low back, a lot of people

52

assume their low back is damaged,

or the structures in their low back.

53

Are damaged and are causing that pain.

54

If you have a burning sensation in

your arm or in your hand, a lot of

55

people sense that the nerves supplying

that hand are damaged or the nerves

56

in the arm are damaged in some way.

57

so typically people associate the

pain they feel in a certain region

58

with physical damage of the structures

in that region or the structures

59

that actually supply that region.

60

and this can definitely be the case.

61

If you sprain your ankle or there

is some sort of physical damage to

62

your ankle or a broken bone, you are

going to feel pain because structures

63

in that area are sending danger

signals to the brain, and the brain

64

is integrating a lot of different

signals to create that output of pain.

65

So there is some correlation,

but it's not always the case.

66

There are more complex networks

involved in how our brain eventually

67

tells us that we're in danger.

68

The brain has to integrate a whole lot

of inputs, not only the physical damage

69

from the structures, if that's the

case, but also our cultural beliefs,

70

our past experiences, our visual inputs.

71

It's constantly integrating

a lot of different inputs in

72

order to create that output.

73

That tells us that we are in pain.

74

So one of my favorite examples to

talk about this phenomenon is actually

75

a researcher out of Australia, Dr.

76

Lo Mosley, and he is one of the top

researchers in this field of pain science.

77

And he has such a wonderful way of

explaining pain To where people can

78

really understand what their body is

going through, what their brain is

79

going through, and how the two mix

together to create this responsive pain.

80

So one of the stories he utilizes That

I feel like is a perfect example, and

81

I might paraphrase it a little bit, but

there's one day where he's walking to the

82

river, maybe with his friends and he's

out of Australia, so you can only imagine

83

the terrain that he's going through, but

84

His leg ends up touching a blade

of grass or a shrub of some sort.

85

Ends up rubbing against his

leg and he kicks it off and

86

continues walking to the river.

87

He gets to the river,

gets in, starts swimming.

88

He gets bitten by a snake.

89

then he sent to the ER to take

care of this poisonous snake bite

90

that he just got in the river.

91

He's all fine.

92

He survives the snake bite.

93

He survives the ER visit, but the next

time he's walking to the river, his leg

94

again feels that blade of grass, that

shrub, and he is in agonizing pain,.

95

Just the most intense pain he's

experienced from that same sensation,

96

that same brush against the leg of

that shrub or the blade of grass.

97

I can't say it's the same

one, but you get the picture.

98

It's the same intensity of signal,

but a completely different output

99

because of his past experiences.

100

How can that same blade of grass

trigger a completely different response?

101

His brain used past experiences as

a way to protect him in the present.

102

His brain had a previous experience

of brushing against a blade of

103

grass and then a subsequent ER

visit after getting bit by a snake.

104

So his brain takes that information and

says, okay, next time that happens, I'm

105

going to remember that experience and

that er visit, and the poison and the

106

trauma that was from that experience.

107

I'm going to create a response that

is going to elicit pain and let

108

the body know that I'm in danger

so that it doesn't happen again.

109

So it wasn't just the input that

created that sensation of pain, but it

110

was also the brain integrating a lot

of different components, especially

111

his past experience of having that

blade of grass brush against his

112

leg and then ending up in the er.

113

So when we talk about the basics of

pain in our nervous system, pain is not

114

actually a sensation that we can sense.

115

Our brains do not actually sense.

116

Pain.

117

There is nothing that happens in our

body that says, oh, that was painful.

118

What we have within our bodies are

receptors and sensors that sense

119

potential threat, and these are

called nociceptors and they sense

120

a variety of potential threats.

121

So we have receptors that sense

mechanical threats, like pressure

122

or cutting, like slicing the skin.

123

We have chemical threats, so acid

or an inflammatory substance.

124

We have thermal threats,

too hot, too cold.

125

And then we also have of course, potential

tissue damage like a broken bone.

126

So if you experience low back pain,

your low back alone cannot sense pain.

127

It can only sense possible threat

signals that are sent to the brain,

128

where the brain can integrate

a lot of different inputs in

129

order to create a certain output.

130

And sometimes that output is pain,

so if you experience low back pain,

131

your back alone cannot sense pain.

132

It can only sense possible threats to

be sent to the brain for the brain to

133

decide what that response is going to be.

134

Rather than thinking of pain as

an input oh, I have low back pain.

135

That pain signal is sent to the brain.

136

Think of it as an output where,

okay, I've injured my low back.

137

The nociceptors, the receptors, that

sense potential threat in my low back are

138

sending signals and inputs to the brain,

and the brain has to decide what to do

139

with it so after the signal is received

your brain actually integrates the signal

140

with a variety of other brain areas and

past experiences to create a response.

141

The response doesn't have to be pain.

142

It can be pain, but sometimes

that signal is ignored.

143

Imagine if you sat on your wallet, right?

144

Your wallet is pressure.

145

We have sensors within our skin

that helped to sense that pressure.

146

If we sat on our wallet and it was painful

every single time, that would be an issue.

147

I know that's more of a guy thing

to have wallets in their pockets,

148

but girls you have those little

metal things in your jeans.

149

that's pressure that our body senses.

150

And if our brains sense that

as pain every time, we would be

151

not able to sit down in jeans.

152

So instead, some of those signals

are ignored, which is a good thing.

153

Sometimes the brain also

creates another response, like

154

a muscle spasm, inflammation.

155

It creates an altered movement pattern,

like a limp or a compensatory pattern.

156

If you roll your ankle, maybe you also

walk a little funny to protect that area.

157

Same with heightened

awareness of that area.

158

I'm sure if you sprain your ankle,

moving that ankle in and out of bed,

159

you're a little bit more aware of those

movements to not move the ankle in a

160

certain way that might cause you pain.

161

So we can think of pain as one of

the possible responses that our

162

brain can help carry out based on

the signals it is receiving from all

163

of the receptors within our body.

164

This should actually feel super

empowering Because it actually means

165

that we can help to change those outputs.

166

Our brain is sensing potential threats

and danger, and its job is to protect us.

167

But if it gets to that

overprotective state, like in Dr.

168

Lore or Mosley's example of

that blade of grasp brushing

169

against the leg and creating.

170

Agonizing pain response, even though

there really was no threat from the blade

171

of grass, it was what happened after.

172

If we can think about that,

we can understand that.

173

We can actually help our brain

decipher what is true and

174

what is a potential threat.

175

What is not threatening, and

what is threatening, what

176

actually puts us in danger.

177

So from a higher level, the brain

actually evaluates what inputs

178

it's receiving from those various

receptors across our body with past

179

experiences in similar situations.

180

So going to the river, brushing up against

a blade of grass, getting bit by a snake.

181

That past experience, the brain

is definitely going to remember

182

next time that same thing happens.

183

It's also gonna integrate with

cultural beliefs and influences current

184

knowledge about the injury, emotional

state, social context, stress levels,

185

visual input, it integrates with.

186

So many different inputs in order

to create the appropriate response

187

that is going to protect us.

188

' cause that's all that pain is.

189

That's all that it's trying to

do, is to protect us from what

190

the brain is sensing as danger.

191

So this is why the same injury or

experience can produce a drastically

192

different response in the same

person or even in different people.

193

so to sum it up, your tissues can

send danger messages, but it's the

194

brain that decides whether those

messages warrant the creation of pain.

195

As a fun fact, the brain doesn't

actually have nociceptors.

196

So the primary organ involved in sensing

danger cannot itself send danger messages.

197

So we've talked a lot about the signals

being sent to the brain, but let's talk

198

about how the brain actually integrates.

199

and when I say integrate, I used to

be super confused when this word was

200

used in some of my courses because I

was like, what does that even mean?

201

I think about it as it's compiling a lot

of information from around the body, and

202

then I picture like my hands doing like

this, like it's calculating and computing

203

what the output should actually be.

204

I know the visual is not gonna help over

audio, but if you're watching on YouTube,

205

you could see, I don't know I picture

things, I'm a very kinesthetic learner,

206

so a lot of my demonstrations I use

my hands for, because as a kinesthetic

207

learner, I have done so much like body

movements to help me learn things.

208

And so when I picture integration

and computing, I picture almost like

209

my fingers, just coming together

and doing a crazy mess and then

210

creating this like solid output,

whether that's pain, inflammation,

211

muscle spasm, whatever, the brain.

212

Census is the right response for

those inputs and that integration.

213

So there's six key brain regions that

help to process those danger signals

214

or those potential threat signals.

215

For those of you guys who do

enjoy the little bit of like

216

neuroscience brain stuff.

217

There's the thalamus, the

anterior cingulate cortex.

218

The insula, the primary and secondary

somatosensory cortex is the prefrontal

219

cortex and the motor cortex.

220

So these areas of the brain combined

are in charge of sensory processing.

221

So where are we sensing that

threat and what does it feel like?

222

Emotional processing.

223

How threatening is it?

224

Memory systems.

225

So linking it to past experiences,

cognitive evaluation, so cultural

226

beliefs and influences, and

then motor planning regions.

227

So the protective responses,

some conscious, some unconscious.

228

We've talked about reflexes, but you.

229

I don't know if you guys have

ever touched like a hot tool

230

or a hot iron or a hot stove.

231

Your hand immediately pulls

away and that signal actually

232

doesn't have to go to the brain.

233

It goes into the spinal cord to

actually coordinate that motion.

234

So there's certain things that

our body does that help to protect

235

us with conscious awareness, but

also without conscious awareness.

236

Let's demo this with

an acute pain example.

237

So acute pain is different

from chronic pain.

238

Acute pain is like your ankle

sprain, your deadlift, where

239

you have a low back injury.

240

It is short and sweet where

chronic pain is long-term pain.

241

Usually patients who have chronic pain

have either had an injury that has lasted

242

super long and they start to feel pain

in other areas They're going through.

243

Some sort of treatment for cancer

or some sort of disease process.

244

Autoimmune condition.

245

So chronic pain can be a wide

range of things, and acute pain

246

can be a wide range of things, but

it really comes down to timing.

247

So acute pain is quicker

and more immediate.

248

Chronic pain are those who

have been experiencing pain

249

for a longer period of time.

250

So in acute pain, you sprain your ankle.

251

A dangerous signal is

then sent to the brain.

252

Too much stretch on that

ankle, on those ligaments.

253

So that can be one of

the signals that's sent.

254

Those mechanical receptors that are

sensing my ankle's been stretched in a

255

funny way that's potentially threatening.

256

Send that signal to the brain.

257

The brain integrates that

signal, and then it might.

258

Create the response of altered movement

patterns, swelling, pain, and inflammation

259

to protect the region from more damage.

260

So by sending the output of pain, of

inflammation, of swelling, of altered

261

movement, Your brain is helping you to

262

protect that area where that

dangerous signal came from.

263

In chronic pain, it's a little different

because some of the time the brain

264

doesn't actually need any input in

order to create the output of pain.

265

So we have what we call central

sensitization, and it's where the central

266

nervous system becomes hyperexcitable.

267

So the brain and the spinal cord

are the central nervous system.

268

It becomes hyperactive and the person

might start to experience things like

269

hyperalgesia, where their painful

stimuli becomes even more painful.

270

You might prick your finger

and have an amplified response

271

way out of what's normal.

272

They also might experience

allodynia, which is non-painful.

273

Stimuli become painful, so things

like a hand towel rubbing against

274

your hand, that might be excruciating

275

they also might experience overall

hypersensitivity to different stimuli.

276

So think of light like too much light.

277

people with chronic pain might be

oversensitive to light, to sound, to

278

smell, to taste to any of the senses.

279

They might experience those at a higher

intensity, even compared to a normal

280

person because they are centrally

sensitized and their central nervous

281

system is just a little bit hyperactive.

282

The longer someone experienced

pain, the more structural brain

283

changes that can actually occur.

284

so as soon as that acute pain turns

to chronic pain and that chronic pain

285

turns to even longer chronic pain,

the more the brain actually changes

286

in response to that chronic pain.

287

This means decreased

connectivity, so People can't

288

turn off pain focused thinking.

289

The brain becomes hyper activated and

hyper connected with dangerous signals.

290

So it senses those inputs at a larger

and greater scale compared to someone

291

who's not experiencing chronic pain.

292

They also experience reduced cognitive

control over that pain experience, so they

293

have reduced top-down control, reduced

logic when it comes to their own pain.

294

This is all a little bit doom and gloom,

especially when it comes to chronic pain.

295

Chronic pain is so hard.

296

People who are in pain for prolonged

periods of time, it is hard to work

297

against your brain's natural wiring.

298

But on the bright side, you actually can.

299

As soon as we understand that the brain

is what's creating this output, the

300

brain is actually trying to protect us.

301

It sometimes just goes a little

bit too far in that protective.

302

Overbearing way that it continues

those pain signals when in reality

303

bright lights aren't gonna harm us.

304

loud noises aren't gonna harm us.

305

A little prick on our

finger is not life or death.

306

There are certain things our brain tells

us when we experience chronic pain, that

307

we can start to introduce a little bit

of truth and logic to help rewire our

308

brain to not be so alert when it comes

to those signals of potential threat

309

that are sent from throughout our bodies.

310

so a little bit of cool research

and tools for anyone to utilize for

311

themselves if they're in pain or for

their loved ones who are in pain.

312

But Dr.

313

Laura Mosley's teams have done a study

on visual inputs and the pain output,

314

and they found that when patients

touched an extremely cold plate, their

315

responses were different based on

the visual cues that they received.

316

So if patients were presented

with a hand on a cold plate and

317

a visual input of red light.

318

They experienced more pain and

sensations of burning and pulled

319

their hands away more quickly.

320

Compared to patients who had that

same exact cold plate with blue

321

light as their visual stimuli.

322

Those patients experienced less pain

and didn't pull away as quickly.

323

So their results were that pain is

not just about what is experienced

324

at the tissue level, but it also

integrates things like, again,

325

past experiences that we've talked

about, but also visual inputs.

326

This next study's been super applicable

to me as a physical therapist, but

327

it's by Sims and Shin, and they.

328

Researched 40 demolition Derby drivers.

329

So their average was 30 career events

with 52 collisions per event with each

330

of those collisions happening at 26

miles per hour to 45 mile per hour

331

for demolition Derby drivers, their

job is basically car accidents, but

332

they reported their worst neck pain

in the history of that neck pain.

333

And most drivers had pain

that lasted less than 21 days.

334

One driver had pain that lasted greater

than one year, and two drivers had pain

335

that lasted greater than three months.

336

So out of all of those 40 demolition

derby drivers, most of them had neck

337

pain that lasted less than 21 days.

338

Compared to the general population

following a single rear end collision,

339

over 50% reported neck pain at one year.

340

So basically when the brain's prior

experience tells it, I've survived this

341

before, it downregulates the protective

pain response and greatly reduces

342

both pain, severity and duration.

343

So the fact that these demolition derby

drivers had gone through these car

344

accidents multiple times in the past and

have survived it, their pain experience

345

was lessened compared to people like me

and you or most of you guys, I'm guessing,

346

where if we get an AR rear end collision.

347

We're gonna experience neck pain at a

greater intensity compared to those who

348

experience it all the time for their

jobs and have survived in the past.

349

So Dr.

350

Er Mosley also created a tool

that he calls the Protect Oter.

351

And this is a tool that you can

use if you're in pain or share

352

it with one of your loved ones.

353

You can access it online as well, but

it helps people establish the seesaw.

354

So the balance between what they sense as

dangers and what they sense as safeties.

355

So he calls them dangers

in me and safeties in me.

356

So Dims and Sims, so this Pro Exometer

looks at a few broad range of categories

357

and helps people decide what in

that category is a danger to them,

358

and what do they sense as safety.

359

So for things you hear, see, taste,

touch, or smell, a dim or a danger in

360

me might be looking at an X-ray that

might feel harmful or as a potential

361

threat to you compared to a safety

in me or a sim, a gentle massage.

362

Things you do.

363

A danger in me might be staying home

all the time and a safety in me might be

364

gentle exercise or laughing with a friend.

365

Things you say, A danger in me or a dim.

366

I have pain everywhere.

367

A safety in me or a sim is I believe

my brain and body will heal things

368

you think and believe a danger in me.

369

Pain is forever.

370

Insurance is out to get me a safety in me.

371

I believe my brain and body

will heal and my faith.

372

The places you go.

373

A danger in me might be the

doctor's office in the hospital.

374

You might feel potential threats in

those places, but a sim might be your

375

library at home, the people in your life.

376

A danger in me might be

the insurance companies.

377

And believe me, you are not the

only one that is experiencing that.

378

And a safety in me might be your

friends, a spouse or loved one.

379

And the last category is

things happening in your body.

380

A danger in me might be

depression or anxiety.

381

A safety in me might be healing

and more optimistic feelings.

382

So we wanna basically go through that

thought exercise and have those sims.

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The safety in me outweigh the

danger in me, but this allows us to.

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Take those subconscious processes,

that subconscious integration that's

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happening within our brains, typically

outside of our control and put a

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little bit more control over it.

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So a little bit more of that top-down

approach where we're actually being a

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little bit more logical with our brains

and being like, Hey, just because

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my leg brushed against that blade of

grass doesn't mean that I'm in danger.

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It's actually okay that I do that.

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So it's really just.

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Reframing and rewiring some of

those pathways that our brain is

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doing for us at a subconscious level

so that we are not experiencing

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pain on this heightened scale.

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So if you experience pain in your

life, or you have someone who is going

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through pain right now, or chronic pain.

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I hope you share this episode with

them in education with them, and I

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hope that it helps them just truly

understand what's actually happening in

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their body, especially when it comes to

pain, because pain really is an output.

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It's our brain's way of protecting us.

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It's a good thing to experience

inflammation and swelling and all of

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these different responses that our brain

comes up with, but we need it to be in a

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healthy range, not to an extreme range.

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And then we can also try and rethink

how we can add a little bit of logic to

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what our brain is trying to integrate.

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If we see a red light and a blue light

and touch the same cold plate, we can

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be like, oh my gosh, this is wild.

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That because my brain senses

red light is dangerous.

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It is creating this greater pain output

for me with the same temperature of

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the cold plate compared to the people

who are sensing the blue lights.

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So basically grabbing hold of some of

those thoughts and inputting it with

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truth and logic to help rewire our

brains and help our brains understand

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that some things are not pain and are

not potential threats, and some things

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are, and we still wanna keep those.

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But if you're in this chronic pain cycle,

a lot of the time, our brains can run wild

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with potential threats and without our

actual conscious input into those thoughts

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and that integration, it can run even

more haywire and just start compounding.

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So to end on pain is very real.

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How we experience pain is very real.

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Our brains rewire because of pain.

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However, pain is in our control.

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Our brains are very plastic and adaptable,

and we can reshape how we experience pain.

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Pain is protective.

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Pain is our body's way of protecting

us, and pain is necessary,

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but pain can be temporary.

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And there are tools that we can use

to rewire our brains to make pain

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not a normal part of our lives,

especially if you're someone who's

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lived with chronic pain for a long time.

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So I hope you guys enjoyed this episode.

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This is one of those topics that can

truly help us and our loved ones.

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So I hope you guys enjoyed this episode.

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I know I've been through a lot of

different sorts of pain in my life.

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I know loved ones of mine especially,

who have gone through so much pain

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and so much chronic pain where

they are stuck in this cycle and

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their body's stuck in this cycle.

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And I'm not here to tell you that is fake

at all because I know that can be a hard

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line to draw where people are like, oh,

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it's just in my head.

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No, it is in your head, But it is your

brain, which is a very powerful organ

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that is helping to decide that output.

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And you actually do have control over

that organ and over that part of your

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brain and all of those different parts of

your brain that help to decide what those

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potential threats actually mean to us.

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So I hope you learned a lot about pain

this episode, and I hope that it can

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help either empower you if you're going

through pain or be a resource for those

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of you guys who have loved ones who are

going through a lot of pain to understand

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how they can grasp that pain and how they

can actually change and rewire their own

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brain so that pain does not have to be

a normal part of their day-to-day lives.

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The more we understand pain, the more

we can actually keep it in our control.

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So I hope that's the overarching message

that you guys all take from this, and

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I hope you guys enjoyed this episode.

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I know it's a very touchy subject.

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Pain is not something that we

typically enjoy talking about,

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but I think it's super important

to understand and learn about.

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So I hope you guys enjoyed this episode

and I'll see you guys again on the next

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episode of Wellness Books is the pod.