Procrastination - The Time Thief

In today's episode of MaryLayo Talks, I’m with guest, Deacon Joe Ferrari, who is also a professor of psychology, to hear his perspective about procrastination and why do some people still keep on procrastinating even though they want to stop!

Conversation includes:

• What is procrastinating?
• What is not procrastination?
• Why do I procrastinate?
• Why is procrastination not taken seriously enough as an issue?
• How can I stop procrastinating?
• Bible verse for procrastination.

Take a moment to delve into what may be 'beyond the smile' - listen in to the conversation.

Guest details:

Deacon Joseph Ferrari is Professor of Psychology at DePaul University, Chicago, Illinois. Deacon Ferrari is author of the book “Still Procrastinating? The No Regrets Guide to Getting It Done.”

MaryLayo's spiritual wellbeing tip: Meditate on the bible scripture Hebrews 12:11.

Related resources: Check out podcast Episode 4: Not now...Later!

Connect with MaryLayo:

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For help in dealing with mental health related matters, please seek specialist advice and support if needed.

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Speaker A: Welcome to Marylayo Talks, a

podcast that discusses mental health and

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spiritual well being.

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Before we jump in, there may be episodes that

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are particularly sensitive for some listeners,

and if that applies, then I hope you'll be

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able to join me whenever you feel ready and

able.

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My guest today is Deacon Joe Ferrari, and it's

all about procrastination.

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Deacon Joe is also a professor of psychology

at DePaul University in Chicago, and he's

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author of Still Procrastinating the no Regret

Guide to Getting It Done.

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So we started off discussing the difference

between procrastinating and being a

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procrastinator.

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Let's join in the conversation.

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In your research, you mentioned about how

everyone procrastinates, but not everyone is a

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procrastinator.

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So tell me about that.

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What's procrastination and what isn't?

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Speaker B: It sure, that's a quote.

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I said that a number of years ago because

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everybody might delay or wait or ponder, but

not everyone is a chronic procrastinator.

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This is something that people misunderstand.

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They think procrastination is laziness or poor

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time management or a variety of other things,

and it's not.

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And that's 20% of adult men and women,

individuals who make this their maladaptive

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lifestyle.

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Speaker A: 20% is a lot of people.

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It is, yeah.

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That's a significant statistic.

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Speaker B: It's higher than depression,

phobias, panic attack, higher than alcoholism

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or substance abuse.

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And my interest since the 1980s has been on

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the study of these chronic procrastinators.

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Speaker A: So tell us more about these chronic

procrastinators.

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Speaker B: Procrastination is an active

avoidance strategy.

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It's something people do that is irrational,

that makes no sense.

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Speaker A: So then why do people procrastinate

if it doesn't make sense?

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It's almost like a self sabotage kind of

strategy.

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Why do people procrastinate?

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Speaker B: Yes, it is a self sabotaging

because if I never finish, I can never fail.

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And if I never fail, I can always hold on to a

belief that I'm capable, I'm good, I'm

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skilled.

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We'll never know because I never finish.

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But I can tell you that I am.

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You see, chronic procrastinators, that 20%.

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That people who are the procrastinator.

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They would rather have other people think they

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lacked effort than lacking ability.

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If I finish something and the task isn't very

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done very well, then you're going to think

less of me.

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Yes, if I delay, you'll think less of me.

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But my ability is not being challenged.

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It's not being publicly shamed if you would

publicly verified or publicly assessed.

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So I'd rather you think I didn't try than I

can't do it.

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All right, so fear of failure, but even fear

of success.

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Your question why then people do it?

Boy, that's a broad topic.

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And I tried to explain that in my book Still

Procrastinating, because this is not time

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delay.

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To tell the chronic procrastinator, just do it

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would be like saying to a clinically depressed

person, cheer up, that's not going to work.

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There is far more to this.

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It's not a time management issue.

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It's not a laziness issue because the chronic

procrastinator is not lazy.

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They're working very hard doing other things.

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Speaker A: So the fact that these, let's just

say 20% of the is this the global population?

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Yes.

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Speaker B: And this is not just people you

would find in the US.

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Because when I've done my studies, I've done

this internationally, it almost sounds like

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human beings.

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Some people are born this way, and they're not

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born this way because it's so global.

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It almost sounds like, wasn't that just a

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human trait, something people do?

Well, no, because 80% of people don't do it.

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Speaker A: Okay, so those 20%, which is

significant, like I mentioned, why is it not

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such a topical issue?

And why is it overlooked?

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Speaker B: It has become.

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When I began starting this in the late eighty

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s eighty eight eighty, there was no research

on it.

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Now I'm seeing more and more so people are

beginning to become more interested in this

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topic.

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Some people still confuse.

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Remember your opening statement that everybody

procrastinates, but not everyone will

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procrastinate.

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People still confuse that because they look at

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academic procrastination.

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Well, yes, students delay 70% of them.

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But I said 20% are chronic.

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Does that mean as we get older, we do it less?

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No, we're talking about two different things.

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Clearly, the 70% includes the 20.

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Students may delay studying, reading, writing

a paper, but they won't delay if there's a

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party.

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They won't delay if there's free beer.

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They won't delay if there's a concert for

somebody they want to really, really see.

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So they're not procrastinators, they

procrastinate.

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It goes back to that original statement

before.

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So why then is this so common and so treated

trivially?

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I don't know if that's the right word, but why

isn't it taken seriously enough?

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Because they're great excuse makers.

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Because the chronic procrastinator that 20%

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always has a reason.

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What we found in my studies is logically,

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they're equally as intelligent as the non

procrastinator, and you got to be to keep

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coming up with plausible, believable excuses.

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The problem is they never take the ownership.

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Now, this is really interesting because their

chronic procrastinators are looking to be

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verified that it's okay to do it.

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Now people are beginning to talk about the

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positive parts of procrastination, that it's

good to procrastinate.

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I've seen some recent studies on that, and I'm

like, no, you're not talking about

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procrastination anymore.

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Speaker A: Right.

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Yeah, that doesn't make sense.

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Speaker B: They call it things like structured

procrastinating.

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Take your tasks and organize it.

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Well, obviously, if I've got a list of things

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to do, the ones on the bottom of the list are

going to be delayed.

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But that's not procrastinating, because I'm

working on my list.

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The real procrastinator never works on that

list, does one or two and stops and then

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reshuffles it and makes copies of it.

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So there's nothing positive.

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This is a maladaptive lifestyle, and it's

something that our cultures, western cultures

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at least, seem to be accepting.

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Speaker A: There can be a lot of consequences

for someone that is a chronic procrastinator.

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So let's just use the workplace as an example.

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So if someone has a project and, well, they've

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put off doing that project yeah.

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They can come up with an excuse why it's late

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in terms of delivery, or they can come up with

an excuse why it's maybe not the standard that

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it should on delivery because they haven't put

as much effort within a reasonable time.

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So the impact on the individual as well as the

impact example in organization, there's quite

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a bit of consequences when it comes to someone

who is a chronic procrastinator.

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Speaker B: Yes, there was a number of studies.

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This is the field of I O psychology and

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consumer psychology.

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This is the research of industrial

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organizational psychologists.

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I'm not an I O psychologist, but I have

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dabbled in that I teach doctoral students and

sometimes I have these I O doctoral students

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from my department.

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Anyway, the point is, yes, there's

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implications.

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A study was done a long time ago, not by me,

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that found that this was done actually, I want

to say almost ten years ago, but it costs

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$10,000 per employee per year that's lost

because of procrastination.

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So if you've got 40 people in your company, 20

people in your company, you've lost $200,000.

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Right.

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Or $400,000 just because people

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procrastinated.

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That's implications for a company.

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All right.

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What procrastinators don't understand in the

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workplace or in life is that life is not about

me, it's about other people.

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And so if you asked me to do something and you

gave me two or three weeks to do it, and

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that's a reasonable time to do it, what if you

ask me at the last minute?

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That's different.

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But if you gave me a sufficient time to work

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on something and I still don't do it, well,

then I'm delaying the next person in the

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business, which delays the next person you

see.

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And that's not fair because the world isn't

about me, it's about we.

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There was an old expression if you want

something done, give it to a busy person.

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Well, what does that mean?

How can that be?

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Because the busy person values time, your

time, their time.

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So somebody who's very active and busy will

get things done because they recognize, I've

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got to be able to juggle what I need and their

need and what has to get done.

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That's why that works.

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Suppose you're on a team and one of the

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members is a procrastinator.

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How do the other members view that person?

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And what if the other members are also one of

them, a procrastinator?

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What we found was procrastinators in the

workplace, in life, don't like other

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procrastinators.

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Speaker A: Right?

Yeah.

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Speaker B: That's very fascinating.

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So if you're looking for comfort because you

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know the oral expression, misery loves

company?

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That's not true.

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They don't like it.

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They don't like each other.

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Why?

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Speaker A: Let me take a guess.

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Let me take a stab.

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Is that because earlier we were talking about

self sabotaging strategies.

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So it's okay ish inverted commas for someone

themselves to choose to sabotage what they're

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doing, but if it's linked to someone else

doing it, then they won't like it, because

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that's true.

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Speaker B: Then you're sabotaging me as well.

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I see what you're pointing.

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That's a good point, perhaps.

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That's certainly a variable.

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There's a concept in social psychology we call

social loafing.

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It's when you have a group, a task in the

workplace, classroom assignment, and sometimes

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the boss or the teacher might say, I'm going

to give one grade for the whole group.

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I don't care how much people work, I just need

one report.

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I want one thing done.

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Get it to me.

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Well, you will have loafing in that.

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People will loaf because if I'm not going to

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be individually assessed, then I'm going to

take my time and let other people carry the

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weight for me.

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Yeah, procrastinators are very good at doing

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that.

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So, yeah, we don't like them because you're

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making me carry the weight.

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But what's fascinating is they're more

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disliked by their own kind.

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That's what's interesting.

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Speaker A: So someone who's a procrastinator,

they're obviously not going to be happy.

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There'll be that anxiety, that regret, in

terms of their approach, they would want to

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change.

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How could someone change?

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As in, what would the steps be?

Is that covered in your book?

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Speaker B: Yes, but I also want to say I'm not

sure that they want to change.

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If you're in a culture that says it's okay,

we'll give you slack, we don't want you to

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feel bad about who you are.

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We don't want you to feel bad about other

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things, then why should I bother?

And I'm a good excuse maker.

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Remember, human beings are good excuse makers.

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All right, so if I've got that angle down and

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you're willing to give me slack, I'm not sure

I want to change because it's never my fault.

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It's always something else.

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Do they have regrets?

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Yes.

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I found this not only in the US.

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We found this with the Israeli sample as well,

that there are life regrets among chronic

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procrastinators, things that they missed out.

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Now, there's a great measure on life regrets.

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It covers a whole bunch of different domains.

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And honestly, this was done a number of years

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ago, I can't remember, but they have regrets

in some areas more than others.

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I believe in relationships, in careers, but in

other areas they don't.

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So what can I do?

Is what you're asking if I want to change, if

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I want to change, and I'm one of the 20%, I'm

sorry.

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Listener you need professional help.

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You need a good cognitive behavior therapist

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CBT, because you need to change the way you

look at things cognitive and the way you act.

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It's not time management.

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Let's talk about that.

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There have been what are called metaanalyses.

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This is a research tool scientists sometimes

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use.

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It's not a literature review.

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It's really more than just a review of the

literature.

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But the scientist takes all the literature and

puts parts of it into a statistical formula

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and it looks to see what works, what doesn't,

not just reviewing the literature.

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All right, so it does an analysis, meta

analysis.

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Of all the other studies, bottom line was the

least effective technique to deal with

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procrastination is time management.

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That was found in two different metaanalyses

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papers that were done a few years apart.

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So I can't tell you how many times in the news

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the suggestions are time management.

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For the procrastination, it's the least

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effective.

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What was most effective?

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Cognitive behavior therapy.

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Changing the way people think and the way

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people act.

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Because you can't control time.

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The only thing you manage in your life is

yourself.

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You can't manage time.

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It's like a stream.

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Time keeps moving on.

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There's an expression you can't control the

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wind, but you can adjust your sales.

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You can adjust the way you act.

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That's why the book is called Still

Procrastinating, because all these time

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management techniques have not worked.

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And I go through what they have done and why

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it doesn't work.

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And what does the literature show?

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The true procrastinators who take it to heart

begin to realize, you know, you're right, I've

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got to get on with life.

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Life is too short.

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I only have 70, 80 years.

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Let me enjoy it more.

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Speaker A: So, Reverend Joe, what would you

like to leave the listeners with?

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Speaker B: That while it sounded like most of

what I've said to you is shaming you, making

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you feel bad about yourself, absolutely not.

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Flip it.

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So I want listeners to know you're not alone.

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I want listeners to know you learned to be a

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procrastinator and therefore you can unlearn.

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It's not genetic.

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You can change, and you should.

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What do you do when you fail?

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Do you get up and do you rise again?

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Speaker A: I love that.

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So it's about giving yourself grace and not

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being afraid of failing.

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Because if you do, you can always pick

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yourself up and keep on moving.

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What you've learnt can be unlearned.

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All right on that.

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Thank you so much, Reverend Joe, for sharing

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your knowledge and your advice on

procrastination.

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Here's a spiritual wellness tip that you can

meditate on.

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It's Hebrews, chapter twelve, verse eleven,

and it reads now all discipline seems to be

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painful at the time, yet later it will produce

a transformation of character, bringing a

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harvest of righteousness and peace to those

who yield to it.

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Thank you for listening.

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Do follow.

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And join me again next time on Marylayo Talks

Beyond the Smile.