Today, we delve into the profound insights of Mr. Secretary Harry Coker Jr., who elucidates the imperative of fostering clarity amidst the pervasive chaos inherent in cybersecurity. In our discourse, he emphasizes the necessity for defenders to perceive disruption not as a hindrance, but as an opportunity for innovation and growth within the realm of online security. Coker recounts his own journey into this field, which commenced long before the terminology of "cybersecurity" was widely adopted. He reflects on the pivotal moments and mentorships that shaped his trajectory, underscoring the significance of accountability in leadership. As we navigate through this episode, listeners will glean valuable lessons that resonate with the broader themes of resilience and strategic adaptation in the face of continuous technological evolution.

In this episode of the Security by Default podcast, host Joe Carson speaks with Secretary Harry Coker Jr. about his journey into cybersecurity, the importance of mentorship, and the challenges faced in leadership roles. They discuss the evolving role of AI in government and cybersecurity, the significance of resilience in the face of failures, and personal interests that help them unplug from their busy lives. The conversation emphasizes the need for clarity in chaos and the importance of learning from every experience.

Takeaways

• Bringing clarity to chaos is essential for success.
• Mentorship plays a crucial role in career development.
• Every day in leadership presents new challenges and opportunities.
• Learning from both successes and failures is vital.
• Trust but verify is a key principle in leadership.
• AI is transforming government operations and cybersecurity.
• Cyber resilience is becoming more important than ever.
• Personal interests help leaders to unplug and recharge.
• Success is often shared, while failure is solitary.
• The human element must remain in AI decision-making.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Cybersecurity and Personal Journeys

06:05 The Importance of Mentorship and Teamwork

11:48 A Day in the Life of a Cybersecurity Leader

17:51 Lessons Learned from Challenges and Failures

21:53 The Impact of AI on Cybersecurity and Governance

29:42 Personal Interests and Unplugging from Work

Resources

The following books and resources were mentioned:

1. "Character" by retired U.S. Army General Stan McChrystal - Harry Coker mentioned he started reading this book and found it insightful, particularly about self-awareness and challenging oneself.
2. "The Power of Now" - Joseph Carson mentioned this book as one he was recommended to read and was working towards.

The podcast episode features a compelling conversation between Joe Carson and Harry Coker Jr., focusing on the dynamic and often chaotic world of cybersecurity. Coker, who has a rich background in the field, articulates the importance of perceiving chaos as an opportunity for growth and innovation rather than a mere obstacle. He recounts his personal journey, which began in an era when technology was not as prevalent, and shares how his educational pursuits led him to a successful career in cybersecurity. This narrative emphasizes the significance of adaptability and the willingness to embrace change amidst rapid technological advancements. As the dialogue unfolds, Coker highlights the necessity for organizations to cultivate cyber resilience, advocating for a proactive approach that not only seeks to prevent breaches but also prepares for effective recovery from incidents. He stresses that in an age where cyber threats are pervasive, developing a resilient infrastructure is essential for safeguarding critical information. The discussion also delves into the role of mentorship and the importance of learning from both successes and failures in the cybersecurity landscape, illustrating how collaborative efforts can strengthen the industry's overall resilience. Towards the conclusion of the episode, the conversation shifts to the implications of artificial intelligence in government and society. Coker discusses the potential benefits and challenges associated with AI, urging for a balanced approach that maintains human oversight in decision-making processes. This multifaceted discussion illuminates the complexities of navigating cybersecurity in the modern era, providing listeners with valuable insights into the evolving landscape and the critical role of leadership, mentorship, and ethical considerations in shaping the future of the industry.

Takeaways:

• The podcast emphasizes the necessity of bringing clarity to chaos within cybersecurity, which is essential for making informed decisions.
• Harry Coker Jr. reflects on his unexpected journey into cybersecurity, highlighting the importance of mentorship and adaptability.
• The conversation addresses the critical role of cyber resilience, advocating for the understanding that compromises will occur, thus necessitating recovery strategies.
• The discussion reveals the growing influence of artificial intelligence on government operations, underscoring the need for ethical considerations in its deployment.
• There is a focus on the significance of accountability and leadership in the face of challenges and failures within the cybersecurity field.
• The dialogue concludes by reiterating the mission of making security accessible to all, reinforcing the belief that cybersecurity should not be a privilege of the few.

Hi, everyone.

Welcome to the Security by Default podcast that brings clarity to chaos in the world of cybersecurity.

I'm your host, Joe Carson, and I'm here to explore what defenders need to do in order to protect and make sure the world is a safer place online with all the fluff.

And I'm really looking forward to today's amazing guest.

I've heard him speak many, many times.

So big.

Welcome to Mr. Secretary, Harry Coker Jr.

Welcome to the episode.

I'd like to kind of start off with let's.

Let's rewind the clock.

How did your journey start into cybersecurity?

Where did it begin?

Was there a moment in your past that kind of, like, brought you into the industry?

An incident or even just curiosity?

What's your origin?

How did you get into the industry?

First off, thank you for allowing me the opportunity to speak with you and your audience today.

And you really captured me when you said you want to bring clarity to chaos because that's where we make our money.

Too many people shy away from chaos.

The disorder.

They get frustrated, don't want to participate.

I look at chaos.

I look at disruption as opportunities.

And so bringing clarity to that chaos is how we make money.

And I say make money and accomplish mission objectives.

Absolutely.

So glad to be here.

And.

And then actually, that.

That little sound bite you have.

Clarity of the chaos is what I need to.

If you haven't already trademarked it, I might, because in some of my mentoring sessions, I tell people, take advantage of that gray space, the ambiguity.

There are opportunities there.

So now it'll be bring clarity to chaos, courtesy of Joseph Carson.

Thank you for that.

But for me, rewinding the clock as to how I got into this, the cyber space, it was before we called it cyber.

You know, I'm old enough.

Where I was, I was operating prior to computers being scalable and available to all of us.

And I can remember, frankly, when I was in the Navy, I did not want to use an electric typewriter because it was too advanced for me.

And I. I plugged away pecking with my fingers.

So I avoided computers as they were emerging.

But fortunately, within.

Actually within a year of that revelation of me not wanting to advance with technology, I had the opportunity to go to graduate school, the Naval Postgraduate School in Monterey, California.

I asked several of my mentors what I should major in graduate school.

And one of them told me, if you want to get ahead in the Navy, you major in computer science.

And I'm like, wow, you mean I gotta.

I gotta get used to that electric typewriter, huh?

Again, we didn't call it cybersecurity back then.

It was information assurance or computer security, all of that.

And I'll tell you, one of the classes that I took and I. I went into computer science not because I was interested, but because I wanted to advance my career.

And that's what I was advised to do.

Absolutely.

I was.

I was, Larry.

And I can recall taking a computer architecture class, and I thought the computer architecture class was going to show me how to design homes as opposed to understanding working with computers.

So that was a challenge for me.

But that's how I first got into what we're now calling cybersecurity.

Actually, the next two jobs I had out of graduate school were involved with what's now called cybersecurity.

One, the first job was what's a part of what's now disa, or Defense Information System Agency, working computer communications right inside.

And the second job coming out of there was at the Pentagon in the Navy's Space Systems Division.

And I remember asking my boss at the time about these satellites, because I had never worked satellite systems.

But fortuitously, my boss at the time was also a graduate of the Naval Postgraduate School in Computer Science.

And he said, hey, Coker, you can just consider satellites computers in the sky, computers in space.

And that's what they are, spaceships.

Yeah.

And.

And that's what got me deeper into cybersecurity, ensuring that those spacecraft were safe from intrusion from adversaries.

So that was decades ago, and that's how I got started.

Fantastic.

I mean, I think for me, it was around the same time I remember, you know, cybersecurity wasn't even a term, and security was a.

Security was the key to the room where the typewriter or the computer was in.

That was security.

It's involved quite a lot over the years.

If you're looking back at your younger self, what.

What did you think you were going to be doing if you.

Because I had the same.

For me, I had a turning point in my.

When I was at high school and I was given two options.

It was either to go down the path of art or computer science.

And for me, that was kind of like those two directions for the same thing as I thought.

I think computer science is probably the one that's going to be the better career choice than being an artist.

What did your younger Self think or what did you want to be when.

When you grew up?

At the time, growing up, I played a lot of sports.

Baseball, football, basketball, did a little wrestling, and I enjoyed it.

I did enjoy the competition, but I enjoy the teamwork as well.

And I remember maybe 10 years ago, I was visiting with one of my uncles and he told me, boy, I thought you were gonna be a professional athlete.

Because that's all I did when I was growing up.

It was play sports in and out of school.

So that's what he thought.

Me, unfortunately, I was so immature, I didn't think about tomorrow.

I thought about tonight, but not tomorrow.

And so I didn't.

Didn't really have what I'll.

I'll say is a calling.

But fortunately, I was good enough in math and science, where some folks vectored me towards the Naval Academy to get a stronger engineering education.

And that led me to other opportunities that I'm grateful for.

You know, I'm also grateful for.

I didn't have a plan in terms of a career path, because I'll tell you, I could not have planned it as well as things have turned out for me.

So fortunately, I had people around the corner in different rooms making decisions that impacted my career in such a positive way.

Again, that I could not have planned for.

I had.

I never could have imagined being the Executive Director of the National Security Agency.

I never could have imagined or never would I have asked to be the National Cyber Director for the United States.

I never could have fathomed being Secretary of Commerce for the state of Maryland.

So I've just been blessed with opportunities and influential people who made decisions that I was not aware of that benefited me.

And.

And then they did make moves that I became aware of that allowed me to have the opportunities that I have had.

Now, if it were strictly up to me.

I actually remember when I did decide to go to the Naval Academy out of high school in Kansas, number one.

That was because my father, a Navy veteran, he bribed me.

He said that he would lease me a car for the second semester of my senior year in high school.

And I said, sold, I'm there.

So I went to the Naval Academy, and I was not familiar with it.

I had not visited the Academy prior to going there and swearing myself in on induction day.

So that worked out well.

My father knew what he was doing, and I'm grateful for that.

Then, coming out of the Naval Academy, I expected that I would resign my commission as soon as I could.

It's five years.

But I didn't.

And I served 20 years, and I thoroughly enjoyed it.

Not every day, mind you, but I certainly enjoyed it overall.

Absolutely.

He's just brought back a funny moment.

I'm just thinking about my own self as well, because I'm doing the same with my son, bribing him with a car.

Okay.

Tell them to hold out for more than what I did.

Mine was not a fast or a pretty car, A to B.

But we literally had that conversation last week.

We were pointing a car, and he's going, is that the type of car?

He's definitely thinking ahead, for sure.

So you've had.

I mean, I think it's.

It's impressive.

You.

Absolutely, you know, along the way is, you know, living in the moment, living in now, you know, in the present and surrounding yourself.

But definitely, you know, I always find as well, how important mentors are to really kind of giving you really sound advice and getting good mentors, that really makes sure that it's, you know, the right path is always important.

So I think that's.

That's a fantastic lesson.

One thing, I am still in touch with my mentor from the Naval Academy.

I met him when I was 19 years old.

And that.

That's almost.

Almost 50 years ago.

And we are.

Are still in a very close and productive relationship.

Always important.

It's always important.

A lot of the guests are always talking about is make sure, you know, you respect, kind, you know, honor the journey as part of it.

Is a lot of what I hear can you paint as a picture.

You're a very important person.

You're doing a lot of critical things, you know, a lot of what you're doing for the state of Maryland, what's the day in the life look like being you?

If anyone wants to follow the same path, what's a day in the life for you?

Like, is it always meetings and busy?

Do you get time to reflect?

Do you have time to, you know, study or learn new things?

What's.

What's.

What's your day look like?

Wow.

I want to start with where you ended up with that question.

Study and reflect and think.

My last handful or more of jobs, I have not made enough time to do what I tell myself and the staff.

I need to do.

Read, think and write.

I do not do enough of that.

That's my fault.

But I need to do more.

That reflection is.

Is just so important.

Yes, I can get a lot done and, and it's not all transactional, but I can have a bigger, a wider, a broader, a more important impact.

If I read, think, write, and just Communicate.

So that's, that's important.

And I have come up short on that time and time again.

But day in the life in my, this current job and actually the last two jobs, they're all different.

It's always something part of that clarity and chaos that we enjoy.

There's always some stuff going on.

I'll go with stuff.

Last night I was having dinner with a group of CEOs in Maryland.

I wanted to understand from their perspective how to enhance the business environment in our great state.

I wanted to hear their specific challenges, but also they're more broad perspectives.

So that's one key event in the last 24 hours.

But during that dinner, when I got up for a moment, I had a note about a business opportunity that did not end up the way that we wanted it to for our state.

And so I ended up trying to having the parallel process, multiple things on what actually happened with that business opportunity and then why it happened and then could it have been different for us?

So processing that while I'm also trying to get feedback from these chief executive officers.

And then I'm still within 24 hours this morning, I was on a, in a virtual meeting with probably 10 other leaders in the state government talking about developing a business case for a foundational compute capability so that the state can better leverage some of our assets.

So that call was about understanding the business case and then secondly understanding the resources required to execute that business case.

And so we at a very high level outline the path forward to take care of that business case and resources and picked up a few actions during that call.

And then the next thing that I did was participate in the ribbon cutting ceremony for a life sciences company that is expanding right here in Maryland.

And I did that with, with my boss and other folks.

And I'll just side note, this company chose Maryland.

It's a startup company.

And the CEO and co founder talked about their struggle in the early stages.

And one of the challenges was they were told that they would not get funded unless they moved out west.

They wouldn't get funded if they stayed here in Maryland.

But the culture was the right fit for him and he has made it work here in Maryland.

And of course the municipal, county and state government and actually federal government have all helped that company.

That was the next event.

And then just prior to getting on this call with you, I was able to participate in a Smart City interconnected virtual panel which talked about, amongst other things, the challenges that we have in cyberspace that are amplified the more and more we interconnect and interconnecting is a great thing, but we also have to be aware of the increased attack surfaces and address that accordingly.

And then after, after our talk, I'll catch a train in New York City and spend the night there and do some work there tonight and tomorrow then come back to Baltimore where we are headquartered.

All that to say every day is different.

Every day has challenges.

I talked about that business opportunity that left us.

Every day has successes and that we just participated in ribbon cutting and every day has opportunities.

Talked about that virtual meeting on how we can create a pathway for compute computational back foundation here in the state.

So.

And then the last part in New York tomorrow it'll be learning for me, a learning opportunity.

Okay.

That's the kind of the board the feedback loop is when you start, you know.

And I'll tell you something common between this job and in commerce, economic development, the last job in cyber.

There are so many factors that I cannot control.

There are so many factors that I cannot even influence.

There is a lot of chaos from different angles.

But back to your tagline.

You know, the job that I signed up for, the job that I enjoy doing is bringing clarity to the chaos.

Absolutely.

We can see the path through it.

That's, that's the, that's the kind of key is when you can see.

And I think some of the things I have to say is, you know, a lot of what you're in life that you're, you're sharing with us is really foundational.

It's really building that structure in order for success, success in the future, an opportunity.

I've been attending the State of Maryland's RSA event I think for the last 10 years and I'm always impressed.

Every time I hear, you know, from a new startup or you know, somebody who's key to, to the community, I always get so impressed and it's so fantastic.

I think one of the big things is that, you know from your talk that you did RSA this year is around the important is to go where the talent is, go with the people who have the knowledge because to, you know, some of the things we've talked about is mentors is there's lots of great mentors, there's lots of great people who have lots of experience that are all willing to share and help us on that journey as well.

So for me it's always great to hear some of the great things that the state of Maryland is doing and really setting.

I think it's, you know, setting up a foundation for a much stronger state in the future.

Indeed.

And.

And talk about mentors, and I'll just broaden it out to people in general.

I think we can learn from everyone, and every learning moment is not based on a positive experience.

Nevertheless, we need to pay attention to that and learn from it.

The good, bad, and the ugly.

And the other thing is, you know, there's mentors and then my role models.

We should all realize no one, no thing is perfect.

So when we say, you know, this person is a role model, well, there are going to be some shortcomings, but that does not take away from the opportunity to emulate the better qualities of that.

That.

That entity, be it a person or something else.

Absolutely.

I find.

I mean, I. I'm fortunate enough just back to.

I. I'm a soccer player.

I play football quite regularly, and I've been out of action.

I think it was a week before we were chatting in rsa.

I injured my knee ligament, and I just recently got back.

And I'm.

I'm finding is that, you know, as you're talking about teamwork and talking about mentorship and kind of working together, as I'm getting back, what I've been finding is the team, they know I'm injured and I'm just recovering, but they're kind of shaping the team around to support me, putting me in the right place.

So that allows me to want us to recover in a way that's safe and to get back to full recovery.

But I'm so dependent on the team filling the gaps where they know that I would have been able to achieve in the past that they're.

They know Joe can't get back quickly in time.

Let's.

Let's cover him as he goes forward.

So it's all about the teamwork and making sure that together, we mix it stronger.

So, yeah, and that's.

That's a broader life lesson, the way that the team is rallying around you, putting you in a position of comfort and position to win.

Absolutely.

So one thing I always like to know is that, you know, there's lots of events over our lifetime that really shapes us, that kind of gives us a lesson.

You know, you talked a lot about the successes and the lessons learned, and not everything is always.

Always works out, but you'll learn from that.

What's one lesson from the past that really kind of challenged you or shaped you, you know, to really be a leader in cybersecurity today?

I've myself had times where it's either been.

Right.

I've learned from those.

I remember doing a pen test against a power station, and that was when I learned that I'm no longer a cybersecurity expert.

That was when I realized that actually I'm a risk assessor.

Assess risk.

And I kind of look through and I see the path.

Is there any events that you've had, you know, lessons that really kind of is a memory moment for you that always kind of shapes your.

Your, Your.

Your kind of decisions?

Yes, there's.

There's two in particular, and the more recent one, and it wasn't that.

It was a While ago, probably 15 years ago, I almost got fired from a job, and I was leading a team that was doing some great work for the nation, and we had something that we did not take, take advantage of fully.

I didn't realize it at the time, but I came in to work one morning, I had, I think, four yellow stickies on my computer saying, the boss wants to talk to you.

And then I got a call, come on up now.

And I went up to this conference room, boss's conference room.

And there were, I think, six or seven senior executives on the other side of this long table, and the boss was right in the middle.

Well, on my side of the table, the wrong side of the table, there was one person, me.

So walking in there was challenging.

And it became more challenging when we walk through where we came up short.

I was asked for my opinion, and I gave my perspective.

And then what.

What pained me the most, frankly, was my boss at the time was a mentor of mine, and we are still close.

And I let her down.

So it pained me that I let down someone that I respected and admired so much that that went to my core, but left the room.

And then shortly thereafter, one of the seniors that was on the other side of that table came to me and said, you know the only thing that saved you?

Nope.

And they said, because you didn't blame it on anybody else.

And, yeah, I didn't.

As.

As they say, the buck stops here.

Absolutely.

We.

My part of my leadership philosophy is the successes are because of the team and the failure is because of me.

And that person came in and said, that's the only reason I survived, because I took the hit and didn't come up with excuses other than I didn't do my job.

That was part of that.

That was a big part of that.

Lesson learned.

Absolutely.

The other part was, in hindsight, I should have adopted one of former President, late President Ronald Reagan used to say trust but verify.

I always prefer, I strive to delegate, but I should never lose sight of my accountability.

And when I'm accountable, I need to not forget that.

And that means I, I can delegate, I should trust, but I must verify.

And that was another one of the shortcomings from that experience that I learned from.

And I need to trust but verify in a way that does not give that other person the thought that I do not trust them.

I need to make clear to them and others.

Trust but verify is just foundational.

It's not blind trust, it's trust.

It's going back to the clarity.

It's being clear and transparent between expectations.

And I think you hit definitely a really important note.

It's about accountability and responsibility.

And us as leaders, we have to know that, yes, if it stops at us, is that we have to be accountable and responsible for the actions.

And I think it's great also delegating success because there's only so much time.

We have very limited amount of time.

I will say the most valuable thing that we have in this world is time.

That's what we have.

And the more wiser that we use that time and the more we can delegate success to other people and which is.

I've seen it building people's careers and building happiness.

They feel fulfilled from that as well.

But you're absolutely right.

We had to make sure that it's clear about the expectations and how to measure to make sure that we know when we need to verify what certain things have been achieved and the goals as well.

Yes, indeed, indeed.

And something else they say about success and failure.

Success has many parents.

We all want to take credit for the success and failure is an orphan.

I love that this is hitting back as well is that, you know, me and my wife are always looking at our kids going, which.

Which one of us was.

Was the influence of that?

It's never me.

So if it's, if it's something that to do that's wrong, you know, we all know who to point to.

I have a question for you.

One of the things is, you know, we've had in the last couple of years the big buzz around, around AI and I've seen different governments and different regions around the world taking different approaches.

How is AI really changing the playbook with government and also within, you know, different states as well.

Are they embracing it?

And what's the kind of strategy in the playbook with AI within government?

AI is being embraced at different rates in different governments, national and Various states, but the smart states are embracing AI because it's here and it's an opportunity to become more efficient and frankly in some cases more effective as well.

The challenge is multiple challenges.

But the top level, eight top level challenges to use AI responsibly.

Absolutely.

And we, especially when it comes to government provided services and decisions that impact those services, cannot take the human element out of that.

I know machine learning and AI is about data and analysis and leading to theoretically better decisions faster.

But again when it comes to providing government services, there's a human element that always needs to be factored in.

That's one then responsible use of AI.

We still need to work through various qualifications, certification tests and the like.

Absolutely.

As you know, AI results can be skewed by the data.

So put clarity and that, that, that chaotic make sure we understand what it really is.

As they say, bad in, bad out.

We got to make sure it's good in, good coming out.

So we are embracing AI.

It's going to make us, it provides opportunity to make us better and more efficient.

Absolutely.

But we also need to face up to the challenge that artificial intelligence is another industrial revolution when it comes to the workforce and the disruption that artificial intelligence will bring to the workforce.

We need to be ethically honest and open about that.

And then we need to take a strategic approach to addressing the vast, the vast disruption of the workforce that will happen with artificial intelligence.

It's a part of the evolution of technology that's been going on for centuries and will continue to go on.

And we have stepped up to the challenges in the past.

Right.

And AI is the next challenging disruption of the workforce in terms of an industrial revolution that we have to address.

And we need to do that now.

Absolutely.

We need to start, I mean it's already, you know, literally parts of it is already passed.

We now need to kind of figure out how do we make sure that we embrace it and accelerate it with the accountability responsibility.

It reminds me of I was part of the working subject matter group for the EU AI Act.

And my responsibility was to look at different scenarios into looking at from a security perspective.

And I remember we were doing one of the working groups was about law enforcement's acceptable use of AI.

And it came down to that.

You know, the accuracy of the data had to be perfect is that there was no room for error, there was no room for mistakes.

So you had to make sure that accuracy was at the top kind of off you because there's no once if you make a mistake then you potentially kind of Contaminate or kind of any other decisions that that model may have used.

It brings it up the question.

So it was all about, you know, accountability and responsibility in AI algorithms.

Can you, you know, make them, you know, accountable, you know, for decisions?

You know, we, as leaders, we can, you know, people can be held accountable, but can an AI algorithm be.

And that also kind of raises some of the, kind of the ethical side of things is that how much do we let loose the AI decisions?

And that's a conundrum for me and I believe for plenty of entities that, that are concerned about ethics when it comes to where I was headed, AI in the cycle of kinetic weapons, do we let artificial intelligence make a decision on whether to shoot or drop a bomb or harm an individual, take a life?

I know some, some entities are doing that.

I don't know that it'll happen here again because that human element has to be there.

And then who are you going to hold accountable?

That commander that made the decision to go automatic.

Automatic or autonomous with AI and a weapon system?

Or are you going to hold the algorithm developer account?

Challenging.

It's a.

Even we.

You know, I remember being part of the insurance for.

I worked on a project which was all about autonomous shipping, which is very interesting.

But it kind of delved into a little bit about the vehicle side of things.

And it's a, that question about, you know, vehicles are going to collide is which one do you try to.

Which one, which life and which vehicle do you try to save?

And all the data goes through that and it's a tough decision.

I think, you know, algorithms, I don't know if they understand yet, you know how to make those decisions.

I think only humans can make those.

At least for now until we train the models to be effective.

So this moves us into the kind of a quick round fire questions.

So a couple of quick ones.

What's a favorite movie or TV TV show or book that you've been binge watching recently?

What's your kind of, what's your, what's your binge watch kind of scenario?

Yeah, right now I'm binge watching a white Lotus.

A white Lotus.

Oh, have you seen that or you heard of that?

I haven't seen that.

It's, it's on my, it's on my to do list.

I have been seeing kind of a lot of the, kind of trailers and the previews and stuff, but it's on my, it's on my list to do.

Yeah.

So I'm, I just started season three over the weekend.

So I'm looking forward to that.

But I also want to hit a book that I just started reading by retired U. S. Army General Stan McChrystal.

And it's a book on character.

And I am, I'm enjoying the first few pages and I shouldn't mislead you and say pages.

The first tens of minutes that I've listened to on my audiobook.

You've done your audiobooks?

Yeah, that's my go to is just schedule wise.

It's hard to get the physical copy.

Yeah.

And when I pick up a book, it's like taking a sleeping pill.

So audiobooks work for me.

But the relatively recently published book on character by General McChrystal, it's good for me because a lot of it is about self awareness and challenging ourselves and that's being self aware.

You've added the book to my list.

I've got a few.

It's on my.

My to do list.

That's definitely nigh on the top of the list.

One I'm kind of in the process of doing is the power of now, which is a book that I've been recommended to read, which I haven't yet.

So it's one that I'm kind of working towards.

So another one.

Favorite cyber security buzzword or term?

What's.

What's the thing that kind of gets you excited?

What term is out there that's kind of gets you all excited?

Well, a term that I'm.

I'm transitioning to now.

I'm transitioning from cyber security to cyber resilience.

Fantastic.

Because we.

We're not going to stop every attempted compromise in cyberspace.

We're not.

Why?

Because humans are involved and humans are the weak point.

The data shows that.

So we're going to have it.

The challenge is.

Yeah, make it tough to be compromised, but also be able to operate through and.

Or recover from these compromises.

They're going to happen.

So cyber resilience, it's more than a term for me now.

I have to make it a point of emphasis going forward.

No, absolutely.

It's the thing for me.

I've had these different transitions.

It was like maybe 10 years ago when I had that with the power station realized I'm not cybersecurity, I'm cyber risk.

It's all about understanding how can I reduce the risk to organizations and critical infrastructure and.

Absolutely, you're right.

The last couple, you know, five years of things like ransomware and the damage is caused.

It's about how can you recover quickly without, you know, Having an impact or keeping that impact as minimal as possible.

So resiliency is, it's what makes us, you know, keep moving forward.

And that's kind of, I think that the important part, and it's the same, you know, for me, injury and football, it didn't stop me.

It just showed me kind of how to take care of myself more and to prepare, you know, the recovery phase.

And some, some injuries take longer to recovery from than others.

So.

Absolutely.

Great, great advice.

Getting up to the end of the episode where we're coming to the closing.

One thing that kind of, you know, we have very busy days and schedules.

What do you do to unplug?

Because Absolutely.

We live, we live in a world of chaos and we're always kind of looking through to get the visibility about how to make things kind of stable and, you know, predictable.

What's the thing that you do to unplug?

How do you get, how to get the rest and recover?

Yeah, I enjoy scotch and cigars, which.

Is what we were doing the last time.

Yes, indeed.

I wasn't gonna say it, but you, you brought it up.

So yes, Scotch and cigars.

And look what it's led us to.

So that paid off.

I, I, I, I'm a single malt snob and I, I love Cuban, Dominican and Nicaraguan cigars.

So that's one way of relaxing, Scotch and cigars.

And by the way, I don't, I don't drink or smoke with people whose company I don't enjoy.

So that makes, because it makes, it.

Makes it more relaxing people you enjoy.

Indeed.

And two other quick things.

I enjoy baseball.

I live within walking distance of the Baltimore Orioles home ballpark, Camden Yards.

So it is a 27 minute walk and I have a 29 game package.

So I get to see the Orioles when I'm able to break away.

And then the last thing that I'll mention that I enjoy, I enjoy, like to watch it when I'm relaxing is football.

And I'm not talking about American football, I'm talking about real football with no pads and no helmets.

I am a fan of football.

I am, I'm addicted.

Yeah, I'm addicted to English Premier League.

And my oldest brother is a Chelsea fan.

I did meet your brother last time.

That one is a Liverpool fan.

Oh, he's a Liverpool fan.

Okay.

He's the one right below me.

He's a Liverpool fan.

So you know, he's non stop chatter right now.

He's always singing you'll never walk alone.

And my baby brother is a Brighton fan.

And me, I am a West Ham United fan.

Fantastic.

Well, I'm, I'm.

I'm a old school retro man.

United fans.

So I've been having.

Horrible, horrible.

After a few years.

That's.

That's when you talk about resiliency.

Yes, indeed, Indeed.

So it's been fantastic having you on the show.

I've really enjoyed talking with you and hopefully we get to catch up again.

Cigars and whiskey at some point in the near future.

My favorite is the Alberg.

Yes, I like it for the PD smoking stuff.

All right.

Lagavulin too.

Don't.

Don't forget Lagavulin.

Absolutely.

So, you know, it's been fantastic.

I really enjoy your advice.

Is going to definitely make a difference for many people in the industry, I think, really for those who are looking to get into leadership or really shape their careers and get more mentors.

Thank you for taking the time today.

I do have one dad joke to add to the end of this, which is, why did AI get locked out of the network?

It kept missing.

The password was I am not a robot.

Okay.

So thank you for taking the time.

So for everyone, an awesome guest, Mr. Secretary Harry Coker joining us to give us kind of his journey in this industry and really fantastic advice.

So for everyone, tune in every two weeks for the Security By Default podcast.

We're really here to bring clarity to chaos and really make security available for everyone.

Everyone should be entitled.

Everyone should get it.

It shouldn't be for the few.

It should be for everyone in the world.

So thank you.

Stay safe and take care.

Thank you all.

Take care, John.