Do you want to se  ek out purpose at work so you can find true happiness?

In the latest episode of the Happier at Work podcast, I sat down with Rumana Shaikh, a senior customer success manager at HubSpot. With a rich background spanning statistical analysis, entrepreneurial ventures, and tech-driven roles, Rumana shared her fascinating career journey and delved into how intuition and a quest for learning have guided her professional path. She discussed the significance of challenging yourself, the art of job crafting, and the essential role of authenticity and collaboration in achieving happiness at work.

Rumana emphasises that career growth is not merely about climbing the corporate ladder but about engaging in work that provides learning opportunities and aligns with personal values. By highlighting the importance of collaboration and appreciation, she underlines the power of community in professional growth and satisfaction. Whether it’s reshaping job roles to fit one’s strengths or embracing new challenges, Rumana's insights offer a refreshing perspective on navigating a fulfilling career.

The main points include:

• The influence of intuition and continuous learning in career progression.
• The importance of job crafting and personalising roles to match your strengths and interests.
• The concept of authentic leadership and taking ownership of one’s career path.
• The role of collaboration and community in professional satisfaction.
• How appreciation and recognition contribute to a positive work environment.
• Thoughts on managing personal weaknesses by leveraging team strengths.

Tune in to discover how you can craft a career that resonates with your personal values and ambitions while contributing positively to your work environment.

Do you have any feedback or thoughts on this discussion? If so, please connect with Aoife via the links below and let her know. Aoife would love to hear from you!

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Connect with Happier at Work host Aoife O’Brien:

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Previous Episodes:

Episode 222: How to Build Authentic Connections and Personal Branding with Alyssa Jaffer

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Romana, you're so welcome to the Happier at Work podcast. I know we've been connected for a number of years. I can't even remember how we first connected, but I know we initially were talking about things like imposter syndrome and, like, coping with change and all of that kind of thing. And we had the fantastic opportunity to work together then last year as well. She wants to let people know a little bit about your background, a little bit about how you got into doing what you're doing today.

Yeah. Thank you so much for inviting me to the podcast, Aoife. It's an honor. And, yeah, %. So I am currently a senior customer success manager at HubSpot, but it has been a long journey arriving there. I I did statistics in my undergraduate. I have worked in marketing analytics. I've worked worked in customer services.

I have even had my own, like, you know, entrepreneurial project at one stage in my life. Like, I was a proprietor, and I moved to Ireland for my master's. So I did a master's in strategic management and something like, you know, the mix of combination of all the experiences led me to the decision to pursue my master's to study strategy. And then in Ireland now, I have been for six years, and I worked for a Microsoft Dynamics implementation project, and that led me to HubSpot. So it's been a long journey. Yeah. And Okay. I'm happy that I'm in HubSpot at the moment.

Brilliant. And I suppose, like, I'm really curious because it seems in some ways, it's like it's it seems like the obvious path, but I think when you're looking backwards, it seems like the obvious path. How did you feel as you were navigating through all of those different options, all of those different opportunities that you had in your career? Like, talk to us maybe from from the beginning. What happened? And you're like, okay. I need to go look for something else now. And maybe each of those inflection points, let's call them, like opportunities to look for something new. Talk to us a little bit about that.

Yeah. So, my life, like, my career journey and my life kind of always has coincided, and it has been partly luck and partly intuition. I studied statistics because someone told me mathematics is very difficult. Like, you know, you will not hear it. So just go for statistics. It's a better one. I went for it, and I did brilliantly. Yeah.

I started my first job with Vodafone in customer services because someone was like, oh, it's so close to your home, and it's like, you know, a good company to start with. So I just started. And in six months, I knew that this is not something I want to do for my whole life. Yeah. Because I had done such a unique niche in specialization in statistics, I was getting an opportunity to work in marketing analytics with Nielsen, and they were pursuing me. So I thought, okay, let me give it a chance. So early in my career, I was very much like, let's go with the flow. Let's give everything a chance.

We are in our twenties. This my twenties are just for exploration. I'll know what I want to do in my thirties. So I kind of, like, jumped into marketing analytics, and I loved it, every bit of it. I was learning from my very first project every single day, every single project. Like, I was working on, like, Fortune 500 companies data of past two, three years, and it's like a gold mine. You're like, oh, this is what they do. This is the budget they spend.

But then there came a point of saturation. And then I was like, I don't think I'm learning anything new here. Yeah. Now it feels repetitive. So I started looking for something else. I took a break. I took a career break at 25, just four years into my career. And I was like, I'm gonna travel a little bit.

So I traveled. I had other opportunities that were, like, you know, job offers, but I was taking time to figure out what I want to do next. That's when I started my proprietorship project. Like, I started writing professionally for, like, you know, content writing and working with different companies on developing their content end to end. And I started enjoying that because for the first time, I was my own boss. And, like, you know, I was spending my time the way I wanted it, but it was not sustainable. So I went into working with this company where I'm right now sitting, and, it was amazing because here I learned working with the customers from the scratch. So it's like they have a business, they wanna take it online, they're coming to you.

I had never done anything like that before. So I'm brainstorming with them. I'm a part of their team, and I'm like, we're gonna make your business successful. These are the things you need tech in tech. Right? That's where my inclination towards tech started. That's where I started seeing that I am now understanding business from different perspective, from marketing, from, from like, you know, budgeting, from writing the content, how it's working. And now I'm actually building these product products. Like, I'm building an ERP.

I'm building CRMs. I'm building websites, and I'm managing things. Like, I'm managing developers. I'm managing designers. I'm managing the customers. And it was so amazing. I I was setting the budget. I was setting the proposals.

I learned a lot. And then I got an opportunity to go to Bangalore, for work. I had gone there several times. I wanted to spend some time in Bangalore, and I had made the decision to move to Ireland by then. So I came to Ireland. Ireland also happened serendipitously. I I I ended up at this further education, like, you know, some seminar that was there in Pune. And I really liked it, and I connected with someone from UCD and, like, you know, he said you should you have a strong profile.

You should put the application, and I did. And I got in. So I was like, okay. Now we'll move to Ireland where I know nobody. I'm gonna pack my bag. So my my point is I have followed my intuition for the most part of my life, especially when it comes to my career. And what it really was driving me is the next thing that I want to learn. And something that really helped me was every job that I had, I changed the job description.

So I changed the job description in general. I changed the job description in, INTO, like the Irish National Teachers Organization where I was implement project. I changed the job description in HubSpot as well because I'm not just doing the work as a CSM, but I have taken up so many other areas of that organization. And I make it my own, and I love doing that.

Yeah. There's so much that I want to pick up on, from everything that you've shared there. It's such an interesting journey, and no wonder we get on so well because there's so many kind of overlaps with what you're talking about. When I was considering university options, I didn't want to pigeonhole myself by doing maths. Like, it was something I was always very strong at in school. But I didn't want to do maths because I didn't see where that would lead. Now looking back, I can see, oh, well, maths can get you into economics. It can get you into finance.

It can get you into so many of these different areas. But that wasn't clear to me at the time. We won't talk about my career guidance counselor who suggested to my mom that I become a nurse. That's a discussion right now today. Oh, she's

a hear that.

Oh, well, she should be a nurse. But, you know, kind of similar career paths. I worked at Nielsen as well doing the the data analytics and and, you know, analyzing market trends and things like that. Like, it was super, super interesting, and I loved it so much. You've mentioned this word learning several times in our conversation. So to me Yeah. It just shows how important that is. And so if you're in a role and you're not really learning that much anymore, it's like, oh, this is feeling a bit stale, and I need to move on.

And I found the same. There was one company that I joined, and I had been in the industry for quite a while. And when I joined, I felt like I was learning their systems, but I wasn't really learning anything new in terms of how to apply what I knew or anything like that. So, you know, me being the nurse that I am, I went on, excuse me, and I studied statistics in one of the, yeah, one of the open, what do they call them? The MOOCs, the massive open online courses. So I did statistics, through I think it was through Stanford and then Python through Pennsylvania or something like that. Yeah. So I did the two together, really interesting, and just really I just really needed to learn something new, and the organization I was working in wasn't giving that to me. So I sought it out for myself elsewhere.

Excuse me. But I love also how you've said about changing the job description. So Yeah. It's like you're not destined to do just whatever it says on your job description. And I know there's a there's a lot of people out there. I don't think they're the kind of people who listen to the happier at work podcast, but people who say, well, that's not in my job description, or I don't have to do that, or I don't have time to that, or I shouldn't do that. All of these things like making excuses, whereas your career is in your own hands. And if there's something that you want to get involved in, you really can make time for that.

And, you know, this whole idea of time, I think, is is maybe for very different a different conversation. We're not gonna get into the whole productivity thing here and how to manage your time more effectively and how to to make those different decisions. And and also the reality that in some cases, you know, teams are understaffed, and the reality is they don't actually have that time, you know, whether that's a deliberate decision by the business or they just can't fill a role. Like, that's obviously a reality as well. But I love all of those things. Can you talk to me a little bit more about this idea? Like, there is there's, like, a psychological term or an academic term called job crafting, which it sounds like what you do. You're not entirely changing the role that you have, but you're taking on additional responsibilities to show people what you can do to learn new things and to contribute to the business.

Yeah. I think the job crafting is such a good, term. And because you mentioned Python, I was just thinking back to my days in Nielsen. And I like, this was the thing. You've done statistics. You should, like, you know, do SAS. Like, you should learn SAS and you should learn, I don't know, Python and you should learn those two r and you should learn these three languages and you'll be earning so much. And I was like, but the point is not about earning so much.

So the point is about, is it going to excite me sitting in front of a screen my whole life? So every time I have a in my interest, it's not always a. It's just something I'll be happy doing my whole life. So if I'm not happy doing my whole continuing to do this in my whole life, then I'm not gonna go for it. So there's always like two roads. Right? Like you will have I could have taken the road down becoming an actuary or learning Python and R and just becoming a statistician or like, you know, I I didn't wanna take that role. I just I was very clear about it. But then the other role was very unclear. I was like, okay.

So what are you gonna do? And I was like, I'm going to find out. And when I come into a new job, when I try to, like, you know, as you mentioned, like, crafting the job, I always look at the job description as, does this excite me? Is this challenging for me? Is there a percentage, at least 30 to 40% of the job which feels that I've never done? For example, if you look at HubSpot, it's a target based job, this role. And you have dollar targets that you have to hit every month, every quarter, every year you're assessed on it. That's your key performance indicator. I had never done that. I had done other areas of it. I had managed customers. I had products.

I had to product. So all of this combined, this was a big deal for me that I am managing dollars. I always look at my book of business, which we call it there, as this is my business. I'm an entrepreneur within the entrepreneur entrepreneurship, which is HubSpot. So I dropped it there, but then what is what is their what is this company offering me? What is any job or any company offering me? Who is it that I'm able to connect with and I'm able to share with them? And who is it that I'm able to learn from? And what is it that I'm also able to share as knowledge? So which areas can I bring my knowledge and share with people? So all of this combined kind of crafts the job for me. So I will never ever look at a job as a job. And I hence, I never look at an organization as in a way, like, I respect them, I value them, but I don't look at them as the boss of me if I if that's, like, you know, if that's the kind of bottom line of it. That I don't look at anybody or anything as the boss of me because I don't look at myself as someone who has to serve them.

I look at it's it's a amalgamation. It's like a project. We are coming together, and we are raising each other up. Like, you know, I'm raising HubSpot. HubSpot is raising me. I have been raising like, you know, anybody I meet. Right now, we are doing that. Right? Like, we are raising each other's knowledge, and we'll share it with the world, and then their knowledge will increase.

So that's that's how I like to craft the job.

Love it. You brought up this term challenging, and I particularly like that because it it does form part of the drivers or the need satisfaction part of the happier at work framework. And this idea that sometimes we find a role too easy, And I think, you know, sharing that example earlier where it's like, I don't feel like I'm learning anything. It's not challenging. I'm just learning new systems to apply all of the knowledge that I already have. This is not that challenging for me versus, you know, being overly challenged and feeling a a little bit out of your depth and like an imposter. So it's about finding that right balance, I think. And I love how you said that you want to look at a role description and say, you know, there has to be challenge here.

There has to be something that I can learn from this role that I'm taking on because it's you know, research shows that if you're a woman and you have let's say, use the numbers of 10 because it's easy. Like, nine out of 10 of the required scale scales that are in the description or the requirements of the role. And if a woman has nine out of 10, she's like, oh, well, I don't meet all the criteria, so I'm not going to apply. Whereas if a man has six out of those 10, he was like, oh, I'm gonna put my application in and chance my arm, or here's an opportunity for to learn. I have these six things already. Here's four more things that I can learn. So I love that whole attitude of you don't want to apply for a role where you're ticking all the boxes and you're like, I've done that before, that before, that before, that before. What you want is a role where you're like, okay.

So I've done these things, and this is what the role is gonna offer me in terms of what I can learn from it.

Yeah. I agree. I agree. And it's it's also more like I have always felt that when I thought I will not be able to do this, that's when I've gone ahead and I'm like, I applied for a principal promotion, like, not promotion, but, like, a principal role three months into my promotion as a senior. And I was like, I'm out of my depths here. This is, like, the biggest accounts, but let me just go ahead and give the interview and then see if it works out for me or if it doesn't work out for me. So it was kind of just going for it. Whereas I know, that in reality, like, you do see that you're coming in.

It tells you that, you don't know all of it. So would you be able to do it? But the point is go ahead and do it anyway. Apply. And I got amazing feedback. I didn't get the role, but I got amazing feedback. And I already got feedback that they already see me working in their team. It's just about time. It's just about building up a little bit more experience.

That's validation that you need. And I agree with women, it does happen that we do have a bit more hesitation compared to I've always, this is, like, you know, there's something called DISC profile. I don't know if everybody knows this, but, like, I have

We've talked

about this

actually on on the podcast

in the past, so

I'll put a link to the, in the show notes of the previous episode where we talked specifically about DISC profiling. Yeah.

Yeah. So I'm a d on the disc profile, and I have always been operating from that space where I will take command. I will, like, you know, I will own the project. I'll drive the project. I will always always be at the forefront. And as a woman, it's a little intimidating for people that, like, you know and I felt that I am somebody who's pushing people, who's bossy. And I saw my Discord card, and I was like, no. These are my strengths.

I'm gonna play to it. Yeah. But you have to know your strengths to play to them.

Yeah. I love that. I'm actually an s on the DISC profile. Yeah. Probably followed by an I or a c. D is probably one of my lowest. I can be not very direct

at times at all. Yeah. I'm very good. Yeah.

Very steady, keeping the peace, likes the harmony. Not too much detail, but enough detail so that I know what's going on. Coming back to to this idea of, yeah, just going for it, even if you feel that sense of imposter syndrome. Before you even said feedback, I was gonna say, you know, you said you got really positive feedback even though you didn't get the role. That's fine. But I think even just feedback on how you can improve. So if you go for something and it doesn't work out, even for someone to provide feedback to you to say, and here's the areas where you need like, it gives you an indication of where I was gonna say where you're falling down. That's not quite what I want to say, but it's more like where where you need to improve or or not even where you need to improve, but where you need to show people what you can do, what you're capable of.

You You know, if you don't have the opportunity to do it in your current role, how do you take on a project that shows people that this you're you're meeting this particular skill? Or even how do you highlight to your boss, this is what I have achieved? Because I think, you know, our leaders are so busy these days that they don't have time to know the ins and outs of everything. So if you make your boss's job a lot easier by saying, here's what I achieved, here's what I'm good at, here's what I'm working on now, here's the strengths that I've been able to use. And you you brought up that idea of strengths. Again, that's one of the key pillars of the the Happy at Work framework. And as we're at the time of this recording, I'm looking into creating, it's not even a framework. It's more of a template and an AI supported career companion to be able to help people to navigate these kinds of things.

That's amazing. That's very exciting. I would love to talk more about it after the show for sure. But, yeah, I would say that it's very important to highlight, to highlight yourself, not just your achievement. Right? So highlight who you are and what your strengths are, maybe your weaknesses as well. Bring your authentic self. I find LinkedIn a great platform because it's very unbiased. You're putting there is your space that you're putting it out.

If someone wants to read it, they will read it. If they don't, they will not. At work, it's also important to have conversations which are just beyond the projects or, like, you know, the targets or, like, what what really excites you? What is it that you would like to work on? What is it that really challenges you? And where can you collaborate? Collaboration is so important.

Yeah.

Because once you start collaborating, identifying even more ideas and solutions to things that might just be thoughts in your head. So you're able to actually build something from it. You might have a thought that I wanna help people in their career, but then you're able to collaborate and build something from it. I find the so I didn't mention at the beginning, but I am becoming a internationally certified coach at the moment. Right? I'm doing my, certified professional coach training with IPEC, and this has been a great community that I that has opened up for me. So this is such a this is completely different. Like, I'm here in tech managing dollars and, like, business and books. And then at the same time, I have a parallel thing going on, which is, like, coaching.

And I'm like, the niche that I'm taking is leadership and potential. So I will be working with people who wanna be coached on their leadership potential and how to basically build their leadership profile. And a part of it that I've learned through this community is that the only way the only way to really, navigate your life is to bring your authentic self. And the only way to show your leadership skills is to first know that there is a leader in you, which does not need a designation, which does not need a promotion, but it wants to do more. I have this drive intrinsically that I want to do more. And a lot of people shy away from show. Like, they have amazing results. They would have done, like, you know, they would have performed brilliantly over the whole year.

And yet, you would go to that LinkedIn and maybe you wouldn't see a single post about it or making it. It's something that we need to create more space for, I think. Like, you know, organizations need to create more space where we have an amazing thing here in HubSpot. Like, our, senior manager, they started, like, this, Slack channel where all of the managers that are working under him and all the team members, we all are under that Slack channel. And we just, like, we share, like, what we want to appreciate about someone. I if I really wanna appreciate somebody, I'm gonna share this. If they have achieved something, I'm gonna share. Like, it's such a beautiful place to share, and celebrate others' achievements.

So if they can't speak up about their achievement, they are still finding a place to be recognized.

Yeah. Love it. There are three very specific things that stood out to me in in what you've just said, if we can pick up on them one by one. The first one is this idea of weakness. Like and I'm wondering, are people still talking about weakness? Do they call them development areas? Like, if you're open to sharing, what are your weaknesses and maybe how you've combated them, my own personal opinion is it's really important to know what you're not that good at, to focus much more on your strengths than on your development areas slash weaknesses, but also to collaborate with people who are different from you and who have different strengths and maybe who have strengths that would compensate for your weaknesses. So the example I always use is someone who's quite a big picture thinker versus someone who's very detail oriented. And, again, we've spoken about strengths at a great length on the podcast, so I'll put some, episode, links in the show notes as well for anyone who wants to go back. And listen, there's one episode in particular where we talk about, you know, you're leveraging your strengths at work, understanding them, and collaborating with people who have different strengths to you, which can sometimes cause a little bit of conflict or friction, which is the new word that we're using instead of conflict.

So might cause friction with some people. So if someone's a big picture thinker and other other person is more step by step detail person, it it may there may be a bit of, friction between those two because they can't necessarily see each other's point of view, but they're really great to collaborate together so that they can build something that's that's visionary, but also that we know the steps how to get there. So any thoughts on kind of weaknesses or or development areas?

Yeah. I I really like that point. So, again, as I said, like, a part of coaching, I I was introduced to coaching with actually becoming a client for a coach who was going through a coach training. And I learned about something called saboteurs. There is a positive intelligence, by Shuzar then, like, we did a test. And, I can send you the link if you wanted to put it one of the users. So Yeah. Yeah.

I'll put

that in the show notes as well.

Yeah. So it helps us identify, like, there are basically 10 saboteurs, and it helps you identify which one is highly active. So for me, hyperachiever at that stage in my life was Yeah. Highly active.

Yeah.

And it is shown in my results that were, like, I could achieve a super achiever in a year because, like, maybe, economically, you know, globally a year where it would it would have been okay if you didn't hit your targets. But did not only did I hit targets, I over or did it. Like, you know? Mhmm. So it it shows me there, but, also, it helps me understand that I am coming from this space. I am somebody who hyperachieves. So who is somebody in my team who will balance my hyperachiever self, who can get overwhelmed or stressed out or burnt out even? And who is it that I can work with on a project where we are not trying to achieve something? You know what I mean? Like, not trying to achieve a target. It's not target driven. It's actually knowledge sharing driven.

So I I have a person on our tree team, Mauricio, that I really love working with, and he and I do product knowledge sessions. So he's an expert in product. I am an expert in finding gaps. We both come together. He wants to say, share everything that's new in the product and how it can work for our customers. And I want to ask him, but how will I be able to explain CSM? Like, you know, how will we be able to share? It? So we balance each other out. But if I had to give the product knowledge that he's giving, I don't have it. And maybe if he had to have that eye, that lens of finding gaps in the product or the delivery of it, because Because he lost the product so much, he might not have it.

Yes. So this is how we come together and we are not talking about targets. So we come together as a team and we do it and we are not talking about targets. So it takes the pressure off of that overachiever. Yeah. But it helps her do something that she loves doing, which is sharing knowledge.

Yeah. I love that. I love that as such a practical example. The the second area that I wanted to pick up on was this idea of leadership. And as you very rightly said, leadership doesn't necessarily have to be something that comes with a title. So I suppose there's two different avenues that I'd love to explore with this. The first one is the leadership that does have the title, and then the other one is about leading ourselves. And, you know, I suppose I'm going back to the first point, given that, like, people let's not assume that everyone wants to be a leader.

But, like, a lot of people, their career aspiration is to progressively move through the ranks, and oftentimes, that requires a leadership role. And you need to be able to manage people, and then you need to be able to manage managers and etcetera etcetera. So that's oftentimes how it is. And I suppose my whole philosophy around that is you shouldn't that shouldn't be a dichotomy. Like, that that should be an option where you can progress in whatever it is you're doing, stay as an individual contributor, but still be quite senior in an organization. And also that if someone is a manager, why is that not a full time role? Like, your role is to develop people. You shouldn't have to have all of these projects as well at the same time. And I get that organizations don't see that necessarily as an investment, and they need for the managers not just to be developing people, but they need to have them working on projects and delivering to the business as well, not that developing people is not delivering to the business.

So there's there's that aspect. And then the other aspect is, as an individual, how do I take responsibility? And I loved, you had a description of, like, I want to be a person who wants to do more, or, like, a leader is someone who wants to do more.

And I

haven't really thought of it like that. And, again, I think that there are some people who for them, it's okay. Like, I don't feel the need to improve or the drive to improve. I assume that as humans, we all have this inner drive to want to always do better, to be in service to others, to leave an impact. Like, all of these things that are really important to me, but it's they're not necessarily important to other people. So, unpick from, you know, one or or both of those types of leadership?

Yeah. So I've I've been an IC my whole life. Like, I'm an individual contributor my whole life. Even when I was managing, like, really big projects and I was managing people who were working on those projects, I have always tried to avoid being the person who is, you know, who they are directly reporting to to. So I am a manager of a team and they're directly reporting to me and I'm responsible for their delivery. I'm responsible. That's something I've always tried to avoid in my life. And I have been, like, pretty clear about it, but it's shifting.

So your question is very good in that sense that when I have always wanted to be an IC, I always looked at my work as how do I deliver it best, how do I do more in it, and how do I share what I'm learning. As I am now moving towards the main reason for actually starting the coaching program for, like, getting enrolled in it was to, learn these inhibitions I had around actually becoming a manager or a senior manager or a director at some stage or basically taking responsibility of people's delivery and their growth likewise. So I I feel if you want if you get energy from being a manager, if you get energy from, like, you know, helping people become the best in their career the way they want to mold their career, if you get energy from delivering those business results to, like, you know, to the business, to the overall business, and if you feel you're gonna learn and chisel and, like, move through some skills that you've not explored before, you should go for it. And I know people who are in sales, who are in customer success, who have remained ICs, and they've grown. And, like, their designations might change, but they might, like, you know, they might be an associate director. So basically they are managing a really large book, but they are actually not managing a team. So they might have that designation. But what they're essentially doing is they're managing their own business and they're growing it and growing it and growing it.

They're taking the larger share of the pie of that whole business. Right? And that's okay as well because then you are contributing in a different way. You're contributing in growing the business dollars. You're contributing in, like, you know, really inspiring other people in sales or customer success to want to reach there. And projects, I think, projects are big part of professional world. Today, I feel like, you know, in in, especially in tech, but I think projects also should be something that gives you energy. So if I'm put on a project that does not give me energy, then it's gonna become a chore. So I want to be more conscious of what project I'm taking on.

If you have those basics and fundamentals clear, then you'll be able to navigate. And who like, and there should be no such thing that you have to rise through the ranks and then you can't pivot into something else. Like, I could become a senior manager and then think that this is not giving me energy, and I actually wanna work with my customers. Like, you know, I really wanna go back to customer success, and I might look to become a principal customer success manager. Like, you know, this is giving an example in the customer success world, but this could be anywhere. Yeah. So not getting caught up in that tunnel vision of ranks, but knowing that it's giving you energy, knowing that it's giving you purpose.

Yeah. I think oftentimes, we don't know what we don't know. So we think we might enjoy something, and therefore, we give it a go. Whether it's a change of industry or promotion to be a people manager, whatever that might be, whatever it looks like for you, you realize, actually, now I know more about what I don't know. So sometimes we blame ourselves and say, oh, I've made such a terrible mistake. I should never have done this. But, actually, I see it as a a learning thing. And

Yeah.

I remember from this is from a good number of years ago now, a coaching conversation I had in, we were doing career coaching, like, kind of a live career coaching session. And and, this person said to me, I'm thinking about doing this, but if I do this, then I'm gonna have to spend four years studying. And that's four years like, if I don't enjoy it, then that's four years completely and utterly wasted.

And I

was like, well, that's like, in four years' time, the four years is gonna pass anyway. And in four years' time, if you don't do it, you'll still be wondering whether or not I'm going to do it. And suddenly, that four years has turned into eight years because you decide in four years' time, I I want to study that, then that, you know, becomes eight years. So, like, the time is going to pass anyway. You may as well try things and see what you enjoy, what works, what doesn't work. The third aspect of what we talked about earlier is this idea of appreciation. I absolutely love that. And Zach Mercurio, who has been on the podcast, I think it was a couple of years ago now at this stage, he has a book coming out called, now I'm gonna fudge this name, but it's about mattering at work, basically, and showing people that they actually matter.

He's gonna be a guest on the podcast later in the year. I'm gonna interview him about his about his book, which I haven't read yet, but it's coming out in May. But he has this whole thing about appreciation. You know, it's not just about recognition. It's and it's not even about, appreciation. It's it's significance. It's showing people that they are actually significant to the business. And I saw this, and I know again that this is, it's kind of a it was kind of a joke thing.

It was done in jest, but this guy, I saw it on, like, TikTok or it was an Instagram reel or something like that. But someone in Hajjore was explaining how she was doing some consultancy work, and this guy said to her, but the the employees don't really care. They don't really care about what's going on. And her question back to him was, how are you showing them that you care? So if if ever you think, oh, they don't care about that or whatever it is that they're not putting in enough time, it's like, but what kind of time are you putting in to them, or how are you showing them that you care about them as individuals? You know, it always comes back to us, I think, on on how we can manage. All of that to say, I love this idea of appreciation and just having the opportunity to to give people a shout out. How do you think that's working? Like, is that working really well? Does it motivate people? Are people on board with it? Do some people kind of roll their eyes a little bit, or how is that working?

Yeah. I think it works well. It might not like, nobody would, like, go and shout at the rooftop that, hey. Look. I did this. Like, I achieved this much this month, then I want you to celebrate it. So when someone else is celebrating that, it's appreciated. As you were saying about, like, you know, the HR and that that little nugget that you shared, I was thinking about my manager, like, my current manager and also the manager of this company where I was working from.

And I think with both of them, I saw in I see in them that they do a lot for the team. So they will come up, they'll show up, they'll try to fit in, like, you know, pieces where the team might be falling apart or, like, you know, someone might not be able to they're not in a good space. So they do a lot. They show up in a lot of escalation calls. They take up work when delivery is not there on time, etcetera. And we tend to see leaders, managers, and manager plus as people who yeah. They're they're there, and they're a manager. And, like, you know, they will appreciate you because it's a part of their role to appreciate every individual I see on the team.

Are we going and appreciating them as well for what they are doing? So appreciation should not just be about your employer Yeah. Or your boss or your manager appreciating you. It should be that are you able to appreciate each other as individuals supporting each other? How many times is your manager showing up on a day he is sick because he has 11 people to manage, not just one person, his book, or her book?

But how

many times are you not showing up to work because you're sick and you only have to think about your four calls that day?

Yeah.

So are you appreciating? Are you do you have that compassion and that awareness? Yeah. And that makes the job easy for both, for the manager, for the senior manager, for the director, and you. Because then they don't have to look at you as someone they have to push to get work done. Mhmm. And you don't have to look at them as someone who is looking over you to get the work done. Yeah. Then it's a partnership. Then I'm partnering with my manager.

Then there is trust and there is transparency. And then the person is invested in you. You know, it's not the manager who's invested in me. It's the person who's invested in me. Then that person is actually mentioning your names in rooms where opportunities are being talked about. Right? They they are the ones who were what what I would say I forgot the word. It's a really nice word. They basically are your, brand ambassadors where you are not present as a brand.

I love that. I love that as a description. And, you know, I was gonna think if you're not feeling appreciated, then how can you show appreciation for someone? Because whatever you're not feeling for yourself, why don't you give that to someone else?

If you don't

think people are treating you fairly, how can you show up and treat others fairly? Like, there's all these things that we have going on for ourselves. But then the question for anyone who's listening today is, am I treating myself this way? Am I treating others this way?

Yeah.

You know? So I I love that. I love that as a reframe. Thank you so much. Rhiannon, the question I ask everyone who comes on the podcast, what does being happier at work mean to you? And I know that you Yeah. This question was coming.

But it's such a nice question. Like, I wish each one of us sit down and write it in our journal. What happier at work means for me? I can bring my whole self, and I can be present. I can be aware, and I can lean on people. I can trust them, and I can lean on them. I think that makes me happy, and definitely a place which has the appetite for my appetite for challenge and growth. So a place which will which will love that I want to learn something new or challenge or go through changes, and they're not scared of me going through changes. They are actually sitting there and excited to see how I'm changing.

I think that's happier at work for me. I'm happy if I'm there, my whole self, and I have a good community to rely on. And, yeah, that's happier at work for me.

And if people want to connect with you, if they want to find out more about what you do, what's the best way they can do that?

%, they can connect with me on LinkedIn. So I do post very regularly on LinkedIn my thoughts and what's, like, you know, what I'm working on. I do also write on Medium. I've started writing a lot more this year, so I would love if you wanted to go and read some of my thoughts there in on Medium. I do have my email address there on LinkedIn as well, so you can always reach out to me. And as I said, I am a practicing coach at the moment in training. So if anybody was looking for life and transition leadership and potential, coaching, I can be reached out to on LinkedIn or on my page. I have I have a let's talk link there on LinkedIn where you can come and book time with me.

Brilliant. And we put a link to your medium and to your LinkedIn below in the show notes as well for anyone who wants to reach out. Thank you so much. I've so enjoyed this conversation. And Thank you. It's just incredible the parallels that we've had as well. So thank you. Thank you for sharing your insights about your career.

Thank you so much for this opportunity. I really love the conversation. Lots shared in a really short time.