Discover The Secrets To Build A Credible Personal Brand From An Award Winning Privacy Writer

Join us on today's episode as we sit down with Robert Bateman, Head of Content at GRC World Forums. Robert shares his unique career path from a postgraduate degree in psychotherapeutic counselling to finding his niche as a privacy writer. He shares his insight on the future of GDPR and some of his most memorable interview experiences with well-known privacy figures like Max Schrems.

Tune in for actionable tips on how to establish a credible personal brand and find your voice in the privacy industry.

Hi, my name is Jamal Ahmed and I'd like to invite you to listen to this special episode of the #1 ranked Data Privacy podcast.

In this episode, discover:

• How to stay ahead of changing privacy laws
• What the future holds for GDPR
• How to build a credible personal brand with social media
• The best practices for writing effective and engaging privacy content

Whether you're considering a career in privacy or looking to build your personal brand, don't miss this opportunity to learn from a respected privacy writer!

Robert Bateman is a respected voice on data protection, privacy, and security law.

He built his profile creating in-depth reports on legislation, compliance guidance documents for organizations, and news articles about the latest sectoral developments worldwide. Robert’s passion for privacy and security began while studying for a postgraduate law degree. His dissertation, on the compatibility of the U.K.’s Data Protection Act with the European Convention on Human Rights, won the DMH Stallard Prize for best research project. Since then, Robert has worked with privacy and security-focused tech firms and startups, creating detailed guidance and policy documents to help organizations comply with their data protection and security compliance obligations. A passionate advocate for digital rights, Robert has also worked as a journalist reporting on the latest developments in digital privacy, tech policy, and state surveillance.

Follow Jamal on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmjahmed/

Follow Robert on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/protectionofdata/

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I wonder whether the GDPR will last in its current form. It's right to say that data protection can be an enabler for your business goals and can help you achieve what you want to in an ethical and compliant way. But I always wonder why that's not happening on a bigger scale. What is this conflict and will it ever be resolved or is one side going to have to change?

Are you ready to know what you don't know about Privacy Pros? Then you're in the right place.

Welcome to the Privacy Pros Academy Podcast by Kazient Privacy Experts. The podcast to launch progress and excel your career as a privacy pro.

Hear about the latest news and developments in the world of privacy, discover fascinating insights from leading global privacy professionals, and hear real stories and top tips from the people who've been where you want to get to.

We're an official IAPP training partner. We've trained people in over 137 countries and counting. So whether you're thinking about starting a career in data privacy or you're an experienced professional, this is the podcast for you.

Hey everyone, and welcome to the Privacy Pros Academy Podcast. My name is Jamilla and I am the podcast host. With me today is my co-host is Jamal Ahmed, Fellow of Information Privacy and CEO of Kazient Privacy Experts. Jamal is an astute and influential privacy consultant, strategist, board advisor, and Fellow of Information Privacy. He's a charismatic leader, progressive thinker and innovator in the privacy sector who directs complex global privacy programs. He's a sought after commentator, contributing to the BBC, ITV News, Euronews, Talk Radio, The Independent, and The Guardian among others. Hi, Jamal.

Good morning, Jamilla.

We've got so much planned for this year. But the most exciting thing is we were reviewing last year at the end of the year and we realized that the success rate that we had with people who come and do their IAPP training with us is actually over 93%, which is phenomenal when you look at what the average industry, which is around 50%. So we're like, so this proven methodology we've got, our C Five formula is actually working, and we're so confident about it this year that we're offering guarantees. So if you're thinking about getting an IAPP certification and you want guaranteed pass, we guarantee you that if you come and do our program and you follow the methodology, you will pass first time. And if you don't, not only will we retrain you for free, but we're also going to pay for your exam voucher as well, because that's how confident we are in our methodology. Overall, we've got 100% pass rate, 93% of people that train with us last year, hundreds of people across the world passed first time. And we want to help you make sure you pass first time as well, without any risk, without any hassle. And we want to make it easy peasy for everyone to thrive.

Great. That sounds amazing. So if you're listening and that sounds like something you want to do, you want to take advantage of the guarantee, then please do get in touch. So we've got a really interesting podcast coming up. I'll be introducing our guest in a minute, but we'll be talking about UK data protection reforms, data protection from the perspective of a non-practitioner, maybe some memorable client stories and some advice for people in the privacy sector. So that's what's coming up and I'll introduce our guest today. So our guest is Robert Bateman is a respected voice on data protection, privacy, and security law. He built his profile creating in-depth reports on legislation, compliance guidance documents for organizations, and news articles about the latest sectoral developments worldwide. Robert’s passion for privacy and security began while studying for a postgraduate law degree. His dissertation, on the compatibility of the U.K.’s Data Protection Act with the European Convention on Human Rights, won the DMH Stallard Prize for best research project. Since then, Robert has worked with privacy and security-focused tech firms and startups, creating detailed guidance and policy documents to help organizations comply with their data protection and security compliance obligations. A passionate advocate for digital rights, Robert has also worked as a journalist reporting on the latest developments in digital privacy, tech policy, and state surveillance. Hi, Robert, thank you for joining us.

Hi, Jamila. Hi, Jamal. Thanks for having me.

Hey, Robert, I'm so excited to be speaking with you. I've been following you on LinkedIn. You was putting some great material out there. And you know what, Robert? One of the things you're going to have to give us people is how to write great hooks, because your hooks always had me reading your articles, interested in what you had to say, and I kept asking for more. And now you've gone to GRC World Forums and you're putting out some great content there and only are you putting out some great content. But when I watch you hosting people on the panel, you ask some really good questions. That really gets to the heart of the issue. So I'm so interested to see what you have to share with us on this podcast today.

Thanks very much. Very excited to be talking to you, too. I've been following you as well on LinkedIn for a long time and always been very impressed by your output and your business. So, yeah, great to be here.

Thank you, Robert. You're very kind.

So, Robert, why privacy in the first place? I think I mentioned before we started the podcast, I saw on your LinkedIn, you studied humanistic psychotherapeutic counselling. So how did you go from that to privacy?

That's super interesting, Robert, because I know from the people I'm in touch with and everyone else that you're very much respected in the community. And I think it's because you can contribute a lot of the articles and a lot of the knowledge there. And like you said, because your work seems to be on the better side of things, it's usually accurate. But you explain things in a way that actually makes sense and people can understand. What I want to ask you is for anyone who's listening right now, who's thinking of creating their personal brand, getting their branding out there, trying to contribute something useful, what top tips do you have on how they can avoid some of the pitfalls and how they can really maximize their chances of putting useful content out there that people actually want to engage with?

Wow, some super hot tips there, Robert.

Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding. So you mentioned that the data protection laws can be open to interpretation. So does that mean they're not quite fit for purpose? Or do you think there still needs to be a lot of work going into reforming the data protection laws? Does that make sense?

It does. I think that's a very important question, given that I don't know a lot about other areas of law. But once you understand data protection law, you see how often it's flouted. And I wonder if that says more about the law itself and how it fits into society, or whether it's just that people are generally unethical and put the law to one side for their own benefit. I think the answer is probably somewhere in between the two, to be honest. We look at some of the biggest companies in the world being told that their business models are not compatible with data protection law, which is happening a lot. Recently, Meta suffered a big blow to its business model in Europe. I can always see both sides to everything. It's almost an annoying trait of mine, to be honest. I'd rather be more emphatic on one side or the other sometimes. But I wonder whether the GDPR will last in its current form, whether regulators will keep making hardline interpretations, or whether it will be more liberally interpreted in future because a lot of businesses are coming up against data protection law. And I know it's right to say that data protection can be an enabler for your business goals and can help you achieve what you want to in ethical and compliant way. But I always wonder why that's not happening on a bigger scale. What is this conflict and will it ever be resolved? Or is one side going to have to change between the kind of more pervasive tech models at least of doing business and the data protection law that seeks to protect people's privacy?

Do you think then that the data protection laws are almost a bit too idealistic and not as pragmatic as would be necessary?

I think that one thing people say about the GDPR, for example, not the only data protection law in town, but arguably the most important, is that it tries to be a law of everything, and it pervades into so many aspects of people's lives and the business world. So, for example, we find now DPAs are having to refer to contract law in a way that some people think is not really within their powers. I'm not sure I agree on that, but it is interesting that they are reaching into other areas of law that aren't strictly entirely within their domain. So because it's so broad and because processing personal data, it sounds like quite a technical thing, but actually we all do it all the time. It can be as simple as typing someone's name out. It's something that every business does pretty much every day. And so it touches so many people that I think perhaps we can't imagine that they will all understand why it's important and understand their obligations. A leisure centre registering new customers or a sole trader doing construction work that collects email addresses might not understand why they have to be subject to the GDPR or what the implications are. And there aren't many laws that have that big and an impact on so many people. So I think that's kind of one of the places that the difficulty comes from.

That's super insightful, Robert. I'm on the opposite side. I think what I love most about the GDPR is how broad it is and how it touches on every aspect. Because if you just go into an isolated silo, then you can just focus on that. But there's so much stuff that's going to happen around that that could still interfere and impact on it. And what I love as a practitioner is that it touches everything else so that I can go and speak to other areas of the business and make sure that everything is taken and considered holistically. So what we're trying to protect, what we're trying to achieve, actually gets done without it being just this siloed effort and something happens around it, then that negates everything you've done and has some kind of detrimental effect. The other thing, Jamilla, going back to the earlier question about the interpretation, is, look, here's the thing. We have to think about the actual process of how these laws come about. So people sitting behind walls, they think, oh, we've got this great idea. Let's put something together. And when you're thinking about an idea, you can't think of every single eventuality. You can't think of how other people might interpret it or construe it, or how it's going to apply in every single industry, in every single scenario for every single type of business. And we still don't even know all of the different types of processing businesses are going to engage in. And as we see the introduction of AI and other innovative technology, facial recognition, emotional recognition, this isn't something lawmakers could take in and put it all in one place. And that's why we have the courts there to help us interpret where there is a difference of opinion. But for the most part, the GDPR is designed to be broad rather than prescriptive. So it gives everyone that flexibility to be able to understand how does this apply to you in their context. And all they really want you to do is do what's reasonable to protect people's personal information. And the reason they want people to feel that the information is protected is we live in the digital age now, and data is a very big part of economic growth and prosperity. And if people are very worried about their data, they're unlikely to share that data. They're unlikely to go and make purchases. They're unlikely to give it up to companies. And if companies don't get that data, then they can't do business and we can't move forward as a society. So by making everybody feel that their data is going to be protected, by holding organizations to account, when they do collect and process that information, it puts everyone at ease. Yes, I don't have to think twice about giving up my data to any European company, anyone who's in scope of GDPR because I know it's going to be protected and therefore people are more likely to engage in more transactions. That's the way I see it. What do you think about that, Rob?

That's great, and I agree with everything you say there, Jamal, and I think that flexibility and breadth of the law is its strength. And I know the GDPR better than any other law, of course, so it's my favourite in that sense. And I think it's a very elegant law in many ways because it does allow that flexibility and it does allow the risk-based approach has become a bit of a dirty word in this context of international transfers, but in other areas it does allow for that, doing what's reasonable in the context given the state of the art, as they put it. That means it is ready to take on new technologies. I've been thinking a lot about AI recently, as many people have, and even though it was developed well, it's coming up to seven years old now as a piece of law that has been through the institutions, so much of what's happening with AI is covered by the GDPR. You’ve got the data minimization that applies to the collection of people's data for training models. You've got subject rights that are I think there's a practical difficulty there sometimes in exercising those rights against AI models, but in theory at least, that's covered. And you've got the automated decision making, which I think is a really great provision of the GDPR that's really coming into its own now as technology advances. So it does have that kind of future proof, well, hard to call it future proof because we don't know what's down the road, but it's standing the test of time so far, I think, because of that breadth and flexibility that you highlight there.

Rob, you are Head of Content at GRC World forums. What does your role entail?

So we run events about, I would call it RISK in general, so that covers data protection and privacy, also security other areas like financial crime, ESG, compliance per se. And I come up with the ideas for agendas, for example. So if you're watching a discussion at one of our events, it's likely that the initial idea came from me drawing up the agendas, keeping on top of what's happening as the kind of well, as you know, my main area is data protection, but I've learned a lot about other areas, too. Financial crime in particular. ESG as well has been interesting. So keeping on top of what's happening, trying to keep up to date, I think because I am not a practitioner, I have more time to really research and keep an eye on developments. So there's that side of things too, just being the kind of knowledgeable person in the room, interviewing people, moderating panels, for example, both in person and online. I really enjoy doing that, occasionally chipping in with my own opinion, but generally just trying to create an interesting discussion and writing, I got pretty much free rein to cover what I want, so that's good. I've been trying to find time to do more content writing recently, and that's been going well. And research for clients sometimes and writing reports and so on. So quite broad. But we're focused on GRC, as they call it, not my favourite term, governance, risk, and compliance with perhaps an unfair bias towards data protection, but also interested in other areas too. And also, how they intersect with privacy, because financial crime, for example, speaking to people in financial crime compliance, they are all about the data. They just want as much data as possible for a very laudable purpose, preventing money laundering, spotting fraud and exploitation and so on. But it's a very different attitude. They want data, transparency, everything, whereas privacy people take the opposite approach. Generally, things should not be out in the open unless there's a good reason and those two things come into conflict. So it's been really interesting to see how those sectors and other sectors have contrasted.

Rob one of the things I find most, or a lot of members of our Privacy Pros academy come into struggle with, is staying up to date with the key developments and being informed, but not just knowing all this happened, but actually, what does that mean to us in our practice? What tips or what sources would you recommend for somebody who is in that position, who's struggling but still wants to stay on top of stuff? Obviously, follow Robert on LinkedIn and make sure you sign up to PrivSec that's it yeah. So the PrivSec content that you'll be creating and putting out there. But in addition to that, what are some of your favourite sources and how do you find that you manage to stay on top of all of these interesting developments?

That's a great question, and perhaps my answer won't be as great because Twitter is an absolute gold mine for discussions. I think discussions are so important because reading the news article can only take you so far. And that's what's great. I think about events too, because you get five experts around the table, ask them to discuss the topic, you're going to get some interesting insights that you won't get just from reading the law. So Twitter and LinkedIn, I confess those have been really great sources of information for me. And also you can kind of test stuff, ask questions, what do people think of this? Put something out there and see how people respond and then hone your views on stuff. So I'd say those, grcworldforums.com is very good. A quick plug there for my own stuff because I think the most beneficial thing for me has been trying to integrate myself a bit into the community and there's a lot of really interesting people, and people are so passionate about the sector and it has so many implications, as we've said. And there's all the kind of you can follow along even with the most high profile cases against Meta and big tech and so on. But if you look at the discussion around the decisions, you'll see how it relates to other companies and other areas and the real implications as well for people's rights. So I personally like to read discussions about stuff rather than just sticking to the decisions themselves. As for getting those decisions and legal developments, I mean, European Data Protection Board website, Irish Data Protection Commission, turn on a few notifications on Twitter when they tweet out and you'll get stuff before anyone else and you can perhaps give an early opinion on stuff. And the mainstream press is getting better, I think we can't expect them to give a very detailed examination of stuff. Natasha Lomas at TechCrunch is one of my favourite journalists in this area because she really understands the law and there's some other great writers out there too. So find your favourites and always make sure you're contributing to discussion, asking questions.

Great. I love it. So I think my key takeaway from what you said, Rob, there, is it's not just about reading what's happened or reading the update. It's actually focusing on the discussions and seeing the insights that are coming from experts discussing this thing and getting involved, asking questions that's really going to lead to that in depth understanding of why this new development matters. Or why this case or this enforcement action matters and how it then applies into your own business or your own organization or your clients, whoever you're serving. So that's great. And then you said Twitter is probably your favourite source for those discussions and the easiest thing we can do is just find some of those key accounts and just turn on the notifications and that way we won't miss any of those interesting discussions.

Yeah, I'm on Reddit mainly not for privacy things, but, yeah, there's a privacy subreddit, there's security and cybersecurity subreddits, and you get a range of opinions from around the world and some are better than others, but it's really interesting.

Yeah, there's a group of people on Reddit that are really helpful to those with GDPR related questions. As for Twitter, people refer to it as the hell site. Obviously, whenever I stray outside my data protection bubble, I'm very disturbed by what I find and we'll see how long it lasts. But, yeah, I have found it really useful and LinkedIn, of course.

Rob, so one of the things you mentioned earlier as part of your role at GRC World Forums is you do lots of, you host lots of discussions both online and offline. And one of the things I really liked or one of the things I really like when you're hosting is what you mentioned earlier, is that you can see both sides. So you ask very balanced questions. And that's basically what I love most about the work that you put out, is always very balanced. It's never too biased towards one side or the other. On that note of interviews and discussion, what's your most memorable panel or what's the most memorable interview that you've had? And tell us why.

Well first time I interviewed Max Schrems was very memorable. He is very lively and kind of charismatic figure. He is quite friendly, but he's also very passionate, you might say, and holds very strong views and has a long history of dealing with the Irish Data Protection Commission. And if you can get him to have a bit of a rant about that, it becomes quite colourful and quite expletive laden. But he's a good speaker and he appreciates difficult questions. I think the attitude towards him in the community has soured a little bit in recent years on some fronts because a lot of people aren't happy about the international data transfer issue. I obviously don't have to deal with conducting transfer impact assessments and stuff. So for me, the more complicated it is, the more interesting it is. So I really enjoyed interviewing him. I had some great panels too, just recently actually, I thought up an idea could Meta really, pull out of Europe because they threatened to a few times. But they said we won't be able to operate in the EU anymore. And so I had a great discussion about that with I won't name them just in case I forget someone, but some great colourful discussion about that. Just taking that one small kind of sentence in one of Facebook's annual reports and expanding it out into a big discussion about international data transfers, the kind of data exploitative business models and so on. So that's a panel that I remember quite fondly from just a few months ago at PrivSec Global.

Sounds super interesting. And yes, I always love listening to Max Schrems, especially when you're interviewing him. And I'm a big fan and I'm completely against anyone who has any ill towards Max Schrems because of what he's done, because I think what he's done is absolutely super important. When you look at the reason behind what he's done and how he's trying to protect people and done that for our rights, how many people have a job and how many people have had contracts extended and how many people are making such a comfortable income doing international based transfers and they all have Max Schrems to thank. So when people are complaining, oh, we have to do these, I just don't get it. I was like, you're so ungrateful people, you really have no idea. And if someone's listening to this, I am having a rant, because we have to thank people like Max Schrems, Johnny Ryan. These people are actually going out there doing something about it. What are the rest of us doing sitting there talking about how rubbish something is? When was the last time we went out and we actually made a stand and stood up for humanity and did something and managed to bring about this kind of change? Everyone thinks, oh, I can't do anything. One person can't do anything, I’m too small. Max Schrems is living proof that it just takes one person to start the movement. And yes, of course he's got backing from the NYOB and other people, but every single one of us is capable of creating change. And if you see there is some kind of oppression, if you see there is some kind of unjust around you, then I believe it's our own in responsibility to do everything we can to make sure that we can correct you. And that's exactly what Max Schrems has done. So I think he should be celebrated. I think he should be commended, and I think we should all do whatever we can to support the work he does and the work that NYOB does as much as we can, especially for privacy pros, because some of us have made careers out of the stuff that Max Schrems has been doing.

We need that. We need people really pushing at the edge of the law and uncovering these, if you listen to and talk about the US surveillance program, you can't help but think, well, that's pretty bad, that needs challenging, whether or not a challenge like that succeeds, we need people pushing at the extremes and uncovering those difficult areas. And it might be a messy process, but as you say, people have built careers on trying to clean up the mess created. Yes, I agree. I don't think it's fair to criticize him. Well, it's fair to criticize anyone, of course, but fundamentally, he's got a good point and it's his right to make it. It has created a difficult situation for international data transfers, but that needs to resolve itself. It's not his fault that there's a problem there. He's just exposed the problem.

There’s going to be a round three of lots more fun coming up with the new developments between the EU and the US. And I don't know how much you've looked into this role, but I'm with Max Schrems on this, it's absolutely ridiculous. It's making a whole joke out of the whole process of holding processes to account. There's a desk in the President's office that gets a rubber stamp regardless, and there's no more information one way or the other. What are your views on that?

There's a few arguments that they make about the agreement and why it's no good under EU law, and that is the strongest one, I think. Lack of information about the process when surveillance has occurred. For me, the most important thing is rule of law and being able to hold the government to account. That's something I feel quite strongly about. And if you're given such limited information about your case, then you can't make a meaningful challenge to it. So that is, I think, will be NYOB’s strongest argument, when I don't say if, I say when they challenge the decision in court, if it gets through. Other areas, I think the arguments are weaker, the fact that it's an executive order, I don't think is necessarily going to be an issue. But, yeah, fundamentally, that response that you get from the executive about whether or not surveillance has taken place, that is far too vaguely to stand up to scrutiny in a proper democratic country. So, yeah, I agree with you certainly on that point.

The way we normally end the podcast is we like to ask the guests if they have a question for Jamal, it can be anything. You can ask him whatever you like about privacy, not privacy.

Can I ask two? One of them might be quite short.

Sure.

So longer one first. Jamal, you've built a pretty successful venture doing something that at the time was probably relatively niche. When you first started, did you have any kind of doubts about what you were doing? Did you face any barriers getting your company off the ground? And how did you overcome those challenges?

Yeah, absolutely. And are we talking about the consultancy side or are we talking about the training side?

Well, I was thinking about the training side, actually, because I think that's slightly more niche, if you see what I mean. There's not that many data protection training companies out there, certification training companies. So perhaps focus on that.

it was very challenging because the thing is, training is very different to dealing with businesses, business to business. You understand the process in place. There's lots of logical stuff with training, especially when you're talking directly to individuals, it's all about the actual emotions behind why people want certain things. So people don't buy training because they want to get a certification, they want to buy the result that certification enables them to do. And it took me a long time to really understand and tap into what is it that actually people want as a result, rather than focusing on just helping people to pass the exam. The main reason I got into the training, actually, is because when I was doing training and I trained with so many different companies and so many different things, all to do with data privacy is, I found, the same poor approach everyone was taking. You get as many people into a classroom as you can, you hire a contractor to come and you hire a contractor who's usually a lawyer, who sits in the office, doesn't actually get involved in the operations, to come and read some slides out, they're gone. When you have a lot of questions no one's there to support you. There's no real passion. There's no real actual understanding of how to apply this, other than this is what you need to know to pass the exam. Write it down and go and pass the exam. And I found that really frustrating, and I thought that there needs to be something better. And from delivering the training to our B2B clients, general awareness, going and focusing on specific stuff, one of the things I realized was people actually love when you break things down and make it easy peasy.

That's great, I think the important thing for me is about both the community and also breaking down the knowledge in an accessible way, because I did the CIPPE last year and I was actually a bit surprised at the level of sort of insight it required. For some reason, I expected it to be about reciting the articles or which article says this, which provision says that. And it really wasn't like that at all. It was quite a nuance. The questions, I was I was quite impressed by them in some cases and they were a bit tricky. They were trying to get at what people actually will experience when they're doing the job. And so you really need someone to like yourself to bring that nuance, I think, to the learning.

I think that's probably also the reason why it is the gold standard and why so many companies insist is because it tests your application of the law and not your ability to memorize it. And I think that's what particularly impressed you.

That's right, yeah. I did it just so I could I don't need it for my job, but I did it so I could maybe pull it out if I needed to. It was a bit different from how I expected and had seen it portrayed the CIPPE. And I also do like the way you kind of integrate some personal growth kind of aspects into it, imposter syndrome and so on. I think that's so important to build people's confidence up. I don't know if we had time, but I did also want to ask what Kazient means.

I had to come up with a name for a limited company and at the time so I'm a big fan of continuous development improvement. And the reason I wanted to leave working for other people and actually do something myself is because I saw that there was a much better way things could be done. And some of the medium sized businesses, like not your FTSE 100 companies have massive challenges, but they can't afford the level of expertise they need to be able to really solve those pragmatically. Instead, they're relying on the charlatans and the cowboys who are coming and telling them you need consent for everything and wiping the databases. So kaizen is a Japanese word for continuous improvement or continuous growth. So I just decided to play on kaizen and call it Kazient. Because when I looked at kaizen, all the websites were gone. All of the main names were gone. There was about 100 companies on companies house using that word. But when I tacked in Kazient, the main name was available, the websites were available, the company's house registration was available. And I was like, okay, it's a very strange word. Nobody knows what it means, but it might stick in people's head, but it's a play on kaizen.

I knew that word actually, the Japanese, but I didn't make that connection. So there you go. That answers my question. Thank you.

Thank you, Rob.

Great. Thank you so much, Rob, for being on the podcast today. It's been an absolute pleasure speaking with you.

Thank you for sharing all of your insights and making the time to speak with us today. It's been absolutely awesome spending the last hour with you, and I look forward to seeing you at a GRC World Forum soon.

Thanks so much Jamilla and Jamal, it was great. Really enjoyed it.

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