What Christians should know about Gen Z is at the forefront of this engaging conversation between Dr. Ray Mitsch and Sarah Zylstra. The episode delves into the unique challenges and perspectives of the Gen Z generation, exploring their spiritual inclinations, community needs, and the impact of social media on their lives. Zylstra highlights that while Gen Z may not identify as atheists, they often hold agnostic views, creating a complex landscape for the church to navigate. The discussion also emphasizes the importance of authenticity in relationships and the necessity for churches to create spaces where young people feel genuinely cared for. As they unpack these themes, listeners gain valuable insights into how to effectively connect with and support this generation on their spiritual journeys.

Takeaways:

• Gen Z is often not atheistic but more agnostic, seeking spirituality without commitment.
• This generation values authentic community where they can feel accepted and understood.
• Social media creates a double bind for Gen Z, fostering both connection and loneliness.
• Churches must adapt to Gen Z's unique challenges by providing clearer expectations and engagement.
• Gen Z struggles with anxiety and depression, despite living in a comfortable society.
• Creating safe spaces for conversations about faith can draw in skeptical young people.

Link to Sarah's article: 6 Things Christians Should Know About Gen Z

Check out resources at SGI

Imagine for a moment that you are a road weary traveler.

You're tired, you're hungry and wondering if there will ever be a safe place to rest.

You've been told there's an outpost ahead that provides safety information for the road ahead and people who understand what the journey is like.

You keep scanning the horizon, hoping against hope that it will be there.

Then, as you come over a rise in the terrain, you suddenly catch a glimpse of it.

There it stands, beckoning you to come and find the rest you need.

You're moments away from the Outpost.

Well, greetings and welcome everybody to another edition of the Outpost podcast.

I am Dr.

Ray Mitch, your host.

It is a delight to spend some time with you to talk about the current issues of the day and also the current issues that are relevant to the Gen Z is what we're talking about tonight.

And I am delighted to be joined by a newfound friend in Sarah Zylstra, who wrote an article called six Things Christians Should Know About Gen Z.

And we will get to that in just a second.

For those of you who are listening and are unfamiliar with what the Outpost is all about, the Outpost is a digital place where we're building bridges back to faith and strengthening or strengthening the bridges of faith that are built ultimately on authenticity and trust and grace and a commitment to knowing and being known.

And that is a key element to that.

And so we're trying to create a space where the doubters, the wounded, the confused, the beat up and beat down, the bent and bruised who feel like their lives are a disappointment to God to feel accepted enough to know and know others.

And we want to be a place ultimately a real time place where people can meet the biblical Jesus as he is, not as they've been told he is.

So at least temporarily, I think, in the grand scheme of things, Stained Glass International, or sgi, will begin hosting groups at the turn of the new year.

And it will be a digital place to meet and to talk and to do that and hopefully, Lord willing and the creek don't roast.

And yes, I am from my roots are from Indiana and that's where that comes from.

We will move into real time, real places where you can find the community that you're searching for.

And so tonight is a particularly special night.

I invited a writer for the Gospel Coalition who, as I mentioned earlier, Zara Silstra, that wrote an article called six Things Christians Should Know About Gen Z.

And one of my efforts in interviewing her and talking to her was trying to describe and to create a context of what a lot of my students that are part of Gen Z are facing and she has some, some very good insights.

She has interviewed and talked to a variety of campus ministry people in terms of what they see and the experiences that a lot of Gen Z has had.

And so it will this interview will perhaps give you some words to describe what your experience is like, if that's the generation that you're from and maybe even if you aren't.

And in a lot of cases I have seen, because I interact a lot with that particular generation and I am not of that generation and you probably only have to see a picture of me to know that I'm not.

But I have a lot of affinity with where they're coming from and the struggles and the challenges they face in connecting and understanding what God has to say at all, of any relevance at all in their lives.

And so that's why it was born certainly in me to develop Stained Glass because we oftentimes create the image of who we are rather than the reality of who we are because we don't trust people with the reality of who we are.

And that's where the stained glass comes in and that's what we are talking about.

So pull up a chair, get comfortable, relax, listen into the conversation and see if there's anything in there that rings a bell or you find affirming, or you say, wow, that's really way off.

And please communicate that to us.

Whether that's on Instagram @sginternational or Facebook @ Stained Glass International, any of those places, you can prompt us and react and respond to us in that way.

There's also a contact form on the website@sgi-net.org where you can interact with us there and me as well.

I'd love to hear the feedback and the reaction that you have to some of what we talked about.

So without delaying any further, let me start the interview.

You can listen in and then on the backside I will do my usual end up program reminder so you don't forget kind of the key places to visit on the website and things of that sort.

And until then, I hope you enjoy the conversation.

All right.

Well, welcome, Sarah, to the Outpost podcast.

I am so excited you get to be my guinea pig.

I've never done, I've done thousands of interviews, but never ones like this.

So thanks so much for joining me.

This is great.

Thanks for having me.

This is fun.

This is fun.

So tell me, tell me a little bit about yourself.

All I know is you're in Kansas City and that's about all I know.

So, yeah, so I.

I grew up in Iowa.

I went to Dort University in the northwest corner of Iowa.

I met my husband there.

And then we moved to Chicago, and we actually spent 20 years in Chicago, where I wrote for Christianity Today and then later for the Gospel Coalition.

And then just last year, we moved to Kansas City.

So we love it here.

It's been a really great fit for us.

Yeah.

Chicago.

All right, now you got my curiosity up.

Where in Chicago we were in.

Well, we spent some time in the city, especially when he was.

He went to the University of Chicago.

So we lived in Hyde park for a few years.

We popped out to Oak park for a year, and then we spent most of our time in Homewood, which is in the south suburbs.

And then my kids went to school in the Naperville and Wheaton suburbs.

So I would drive over there.

Well, you're talking to a Wheaton transplant.

Okay, very cool.

We lived there for 12 years and had all our kids there.

And I worked at the Minute Mark Clinic there in Wheaton.

And Connecticut was right down from my office, actually, in my private practice with Carol Stream.

Yes.

So it was like distance to ct.

So.

Yeah.

Anyway, so what prompted me to invite you is the article you wrote.

And the article was, what Six Things Christians Should Know about Gen Z.

And like I said to you on the lead up, it was like, I wonder if we can put some clothing on this for a lot of my listeners are in that generation or just prior.

So they relate really well to it.

But like I said, I think in a lot of cases, they haven't really put words to what their experiences are like.

And that's what I liked about your article.

It's kind of succinctly put it all together and then we'll kind of pivot because it's like, all right, now that we've identified some of that, what's the church got to do here?

And that was my reference to the I world, which I'll probably throw in there at some point.

So tell me, I mean, how did you come to writing an article like this?

Yeah.

So the Gospel Coalition's main goal is to help local churches and local pastors, give them resources.

And I think what we started to hear is that as Gen Z graduated from college, they were starting to come to walk into churches.

And I don't mean that to say they weren't going to church before, but they were going with their parents.

Right.

They were starting to walk in on their own.

They became adults, essentially, is what happened.

And so we and our pastors were noticing that they were different.

As you know, they're the I generation.

And so they were different even from millennials.

And so they just were wondering like, you know, who is this new generation?

And so then I just tried to figure out some distinctives about them that would be helpful for pastors to know.

Yeah, so nobody conscripted you, you noticed a trend and then you tracked down these people, right?

Yes.

And everybody I asked, you'll see work.

They're like all campus ministry people.

So they noticed that.

Yeah, people who have been working with this generation, but also hopefully some of them were, have been working with other generations too, which I think helps to do kind of the comparison.

Yeah, sure.

So big picture, I mean, what is the church missing?

I mean I see those six and you know, I'm living in amongst that territory.

So it's like, yeah, I'm going, mm, that really is it.

But the church at large, it seems like there's such a disconnect.

Yeah, I think so.

I think it's hard for churches always to keep up.

Right.

It's harder for the older generation, especially if they don't work with kids.

We even see this inside Gen Z.

I've got two Gen Z kids myself and even in the four year gap between them, I can see differences in their experiences.

So I think even inside of Gen Z they're not all monolithic.

And so I think that makes it even harder for older generations to keep their finger on the pulse of everything.

I do think that.

I don't know that it's a church's job to try and know the latest tick tock trend.

As long as they're preaching the gospel.

Right.

Then that's their.

So what they're missing is like, I hope they're not missing the gospel.

If they have Jesus at the center, then there's still hope they're doing the right thing.

Right, right, right.

Yeah.

So I mean one of the questions you had, and I will just walk through the six and see what we can get ourselves into, you said they, they, they aren't atheists.

Kind of.

And I love the conditional there.

Tell me more.

I mean, what did you find from the people you were talking to?

Yeah, this is so interesting.

So Gen Z aren't, if you think about atheists, are people who would say there is no God.

Right.

I don't believe that there is a God at all.

And really throughout all of America, of all age groups, even though our society is becoming more secular, the number of people who Say there is no God is still very, very small.

And so I think that's also true of this generation.

I would call them more agnostic, right?

Of just, they'll say they're just like, maybe there's something spiritual out there.

They like the idea of spirituality, maybe.

But this generation, even in the conversations I've had since this article, college students will tell me that their non Christian friends aren't hostile to their faith.

It's not like they're saying, we're think this is terrible, we hate that you believe this, we hate you.

What they're more likely to say is, oh, that's great for you that you're choosing this, I'm going to choose this over here.

But everybody sort of live and let live.

So they're not necessarily atheists, but neither are they really engaging that question a lot.

So what ends up happening is they have a menu of spirituality and Christianity is just one of them.

I think that is.

Or like a form of spirituality, right?

Or just like I sort of believe in a God out there.

Or maybe I would think that there's a higher power or you know, there's, there's.

We're also hearing like renewed interest in like, oh, I wear this charm, right?

Or oh, I have these essential oils that make me feel better.

Not that I'm trying to put down essential oils, but you know, like they're, oh, I have these spices that I hang over here.

So there's still a desire for some sort of connection, but I think a lot of it is, yeah.

Or maybe I would say, oh, Jesus, that's great, he was probably a nice guy.

But there's also some other, maybe I'll pull something from Buddhism or maybe I'll pull an idea from Hinduism or just kind of follow my favorite TikTok person and see what they do.

And yeah, I wonder how much MTD came up.

Are you familiar with that?

Moralistic therapeutic deism?

Oh, and I wonder how much that came up.

I'm hearing more about that and increasingly even a Christian university, I'm a little surprised in their quieter moments that they buy some of that stuff.

It's like a watered down version that isn't Christocentric, but it's God's there when I need him, when I have a hard time and all good people go to heaven.

And for somebody like me and the boomer generation, our heads are blowing up with these, each passing one.

And yet they're going, well, what else would there be?

Did that ever come up with some of the people you Talked to, I noticed Tony Dentman.

Is he still the guy at uic?

He still is, yeah, he still is.

I definitely think there is a.

Yeah, yeah.

I think that is definitely still true.

Like, you reach for God when you need him, right.

Or you reach for God when things are kind of hard and then he's so easy to put back down again.

I think our culture, even between me and my kids, there's.

We live in such an affluent culture and we're.

And so I think that also play.

These are kids who are pretty comfortable in general.

More comfortable probably than any other generation born in the history of the world, if you think about it.

If you think about the wealth of the United States.

Right.

And the ease of the things that we need and everything is just.

If you want to order it on Amazon, it's just.

There's just a simplicity to their life and yet it doesn't come.

They don't.

They feel insecure as well.

And you can see that from the anxiety and the depression statistics.

Yeah, some of the.

One of the second item you came up with was the looking for a better community.

And one of the things that.

My organization is called Stained Glass International, that seems to resonate with a lot of them because it's like I create the appearance of something and then I can live safely behind it and the appearance is acceptable, but then I still have me back here that isn't assailed by anything, in a sense.

And so they're almost more protected now, you said something that caught my attention in terms of more comfortable and affluent.

That seems to be a very big driving force for this generation.

Has that come through at all?

Yeah, I do.

So what's so interesting about them is that they're physically so comfortable and stable and yet they don't feel very stable or comfortable.

Right.

And so it's so interesting to watch their.

I don't.

So they just seem to be a little bit more cynical on the one hand, right?

Like, if they see something, they.

They think that's probably not true.

Right.

And this comes from years of them doing this to other people.

Like, I know I took a picture of my room that was clean.

Right.

I know I only showed the test score.

That was the good test score.

I only showed the practice or the game that I won, you know, like, so they know they're doing it and they assume other people are doing it to them, which they are.

And so I think there's kind of a cynicism that grows out of that.

So it's hard for them, I think to believe that things are good.

I think it's hard for them to believe, hey, we're actually doing really good on world hunger.

Right.

Or like, hey, our country's not at war right now.

Or like, hey, you're getting a great education or whatever it is.

It's just hard.

Yeah, Their mindset is a little bit more difficult.

They take the internal and then project it onto the world around them.

I think so.

And also if you think about the way they intake their news, it's a lot of bad news.

Right.

So it's a lot of.

And they don't get a break from it because it's on their phone, they're scrolling it and then it never ends.

And so then that also feels like a lot to carry.

Yeah, I remember back this is going to date me.

But when the Iraq war happened and the news Cycle wasn't a 24 hour news cycle and where I was working, I was working at adolescent inpatient unit and we were talking to the adolescents there and they had this existential anxiety because they saw the war happen and it wasn't.

And they didn't have video game.

Well, they did a little bit and not the kind we have now, but I think that bled into the anxiety they generally had.

And I wonder if that's just.

We're seeing the harvest of a lot of that.

Makes sense.

Yeah.

So what would I put this question on our sheet?

What would a better community look like to them?

Yeah, this is.

Here's where I think Gen Z has two problems here.

And one is that they have an idealized view of friendship drawn from social media and that nothing could ever live up to.

Right.

Like they, so just they feel like their friendships need to be so good, better than an actual human friendship is.

And then the second problem they have is that they are genuinely, I think, self.

Admittedly socially anxious and socially awkward.

And so it's hard.

That's hard for them.

It's hard for them to commit to a gathering and it's easy for them to skip.

It's hard for them to make eye contact, easy for them to grab their phones.

And so it's so, you know, everything is sort of shaping them to be antisocial, I guess.

And so it just, yeah, it just gets easier and easier for them to be antisocial.

So I think a better community for them would be a gathering of people who don't flake but who stick with you through the awkwardness.

Right.

It would be real, it wouldn't just be a photo shoot, it would be authentic.

It would be genuine.

It would maybe give you a shared purpose to work toward.

Hopefully it would be relaxed enough where you could laugh a lot.

I think this generation maybe doesn't laugh as much, and so it would be anxiety.

I think it does.

I think it does.

You find those kinds of communities in families, right?

Like, they stick with you.

I think you also find those kind of communities in a local church.

Like you can.

Your local church will stick with you even if you're a pain in the butt and even if you flip.

They'll still be there next Sunday, right?

Yeah.

Wow.

And they're lonely.

That was.

That one really jumped out of me was how lonely they are in spite of their connectedness.

Yeah, I know.

That's phenomenal.

It's so counterintuitive.

It almost feels like the whole generation is introverted.

And I don't know if a whole generation can be introverted, but is this the introverted generation?

They're split.

And so I.

And that's.

That's kind of what my.

Oftentimes.

My concern is.

I.

I do a couple different classes that have groups in them, and you would think I'm asking them to get a root canal without an anesthetic.

I mean, I've got to look at somebody and trust them.

You.

You're out of your mind.

And yet by the time it's all over, it's like, this was the best thing ever.

How did I.

You know?

And.

And that's that loneliness piece.

It seems to me, like you said, we're connected, but we're not.

They seem a generation of paradoxes.

Yeah.

I think one thing that makes them feel more lonely, it's an A generation that is introspective.

Right.

Like, they're asking questions about themselves.

They're wondering who they are.

They're wondering what they're supposed to do.

They're wondering.

They're trying on all these different identities.

And part of that is social media.

Part of that is just being a teenager and trying to figure out who you are.

But when you look at yourself a lot, it's easy to ask a lot of questions, like, do I have any friends?

Does anybody like me?

Would anybody want to hang out with me?

And I think those are questions that everybody asks, but this generation maybe asks that a lot.

And I think those kind of questions make you feel anxious.

Maybe questions that would be better would be like, who can I sit by?

Who can I ask to go to the movie with me?

Who cannot?

Like to turn those questions outward a little bit more, maybe, and just say who could do.

I want to do this?

Who could do this with me instead of like, oh, am I worth being friends with?

Yeah, well.

And it seems like I don't know that.

And that's just.

Well, I can't say I'm an armchair psychologist, because I am one.

But I mean, it seems like they live in their heads a lot rather than in real time, which is what you're describing.

You know, something that caught my attention as I was reading your article and I put.

I said this even in the notes I sent you, is the double bind.

It seems like they're in.

And that adds to the anxiety.

So everything is on social media and that's where they find out everything.

But then disengaging from it creates anxiety.

And then they.

You said they cycle through deleting and reinstalling.

It's like, oh, my God, what is happening?

I know, I know.

I sometimes.

So it seems to me like social media sometimes acts like salt water.

Like I'm craving relationships.

Oh, this looks like a relationship.

I'm drinking it.

It's not a relationship.

It is a shallow, twisted version of a relationship.

Oh, I'm sort of sick from it and I need to back off from it.

Oh, I'm really craving relationship.

So this looks like relationship.

Right.

We're just back in a.

Yes, rounded.

I feel for them.

I do.

Especially for the girls.

I think it's easier for boys to get off of social media, but for girls, I think it's really, really hard.

And I know they go through cycles.

If you are a girl who is doing that, I would just encourage you make those.

It's like a muscle.

So the longer you can make those breaks longer and longer.

Take those breaks oftener and oftener.

And just like the more distance you can get for yourself, the healthier you'll be.

Yeah.

The thing that caught my attention was when one of the campus people you were talking to, I forget who it was.

It may have been the Dawes that said something about when you talk about a fast and they think about social media, it's like the ancient saint, the desert fathers would be rolling over their grave at the.

At the thought of that.

Yeah.

All previous generations think food right away.

Right.

Food.

And the generations you say fast, they think social media.

It's really interesting.

Yeah.

What was the other thing?

And I guess that goes back to the double bind.

I don't know how familiar you are with that.

I traffic in it all the time, but it's in relationships and other things where I'm asked to do One thing, and I'm penalized and I don't do it, or I do it and I'm penalized.

I don't do it, and I'm penalized.

And so it seems like that social media, in spite of the dopamine rush, they get out of it, which creates this addictive cycle almost, it sounds like.

Were people pointing to that?

Yeah, there's definitely.

There's definitely dopamine that gets released from that.

And so it absolutely can create an addiction.

Yeah, I think that's just.

Yeah, yeah, we see it.

I was hoping for a while, actually, you know, for a long time, everybody was on Facebook, and that was just the one place, and everybody was there.

But for this generation, it is not Facebook.

In fact, there's like four or five different places.

And I was like.

I was hoping, like, oh, because there's so many different ones.

Maybe you could be like, well, I'm on, you know, Snapchat, but I'm not on Bereal or something.

And so then it would dilute the draw of it because not everybody would be there.

When everybody is in one place, it's very difficult not to be there, too.

But sadly, I think what happened instead is that now you have to be on all the places.

I don't think it's now.

When I talk to girls, they have, like, five different social media accounts.

Right.

And so you're like, well, shoot, I thought it was going to be loosening the tie, but I wonder if it just made it even tighter.

Because now you have to check five social media accounts instead of one.

Hence the doom.

Zoom.

The doom.

What I want to say that comes out of that.

You know, the fascinating thing that you mentioned was how principled they are, and that.

That really caught my attention because it seems like this is also dynamic in terms of their ideas about things and very socially anchored.

So whoever I'm with is kind of the principle I'm following.

But it sounds like you found something else.

Yeah, I think you're right that whoever I'm with is the principal I'm following.

I just think that they're standards.

They're very strict in the, like, they're very high standards for behavior.

Because if you mess up on something, if you're not up to date on what the thing is that we're all together on and you mess it up, then you're going to be canceled and maybe very painfully and publicly in a very shameful way.

And so then they're.

They have to be very careful with what they say and when they say it and it and their.

Yeah, their standards.

They have high standards for behaving nicely toward people, but they'll also cancel you in a second if they don't think that you're being nice towards somebody.

Right.

So it's just like a.

It's a really fragile thing.

It's so.

That's a perfect word for it.

It is so it is very fragile.

And you can see why they're anxious then.

Yeah.

Right.

Well, and I think back to a lot.

A lot of the.

Even the clients I've worked with in the past where, you know, you can be.

You can be their best friend on one session, next friend, next time, you are their most hated enemy.

And it seems like that's just on steroids in social media, which, okay, if I'm principled, maybe this is just.

And I'm giving away my generation here, but if I'm just principled, then that will guide me to everything that I do thereafter.

But these sound dynamic.

Yeah, you're right.

So principles isn't even the right word for it because if you had principles, they would be stemming from something, hopefully from the word of God or even laws of nature or something that would be stable.

So I don't.

I guess I don't even know what you would call it.

Shifting rules.

They're playing a game where the rules are always changing.

Yes.

Yeah.

I mean, some people are calling it 3D checkers, but that's way too structured.

I mean, yeah, guys buck the system if it is imposed on them, but then they'll impose everything on themselves in the meantime.

Yeah, it's kind of crazy that way.

So, I mean, you said something just now.

It was like, well, they'll cancel you in a heartbeat.

And so where is right and wrong?

I mean, how do they determine that?

Yeah, I think they just have to watch each other.

And so I think a lot of them actually become lurkers, like lurking around the edges of social media.

I think they do that.

For one, they don't want to be canceled for sure.

But two, I think if you play the social media influencer game and don't win, which is, by the way, the vast, vast, vast majority of people, then it can start to feel like.

I think it's just easier and easier not to post.

Right.

So you would maybe go and consume other people's posts, but you're not contributing anything yourself.

I don't have a value judgment on that.

Like, well, that's just, you know, what you're doing.

However, what I'm wondering about is if that Makes you then become more of a lurker in real life.

Like, are you sort of around the edges of other social gatherings?

Are you?

I was just at.

I was at a campus ministry meeting at Iowa State.

Awesome.

Really great time, great place.

They had like a thousand kids there.

They were worshiping together.

And then at the end, almost everybody left, ran out to their cars and left.

I was like, oh, I don't think that would have happened in previous generations.

You would have had to kick them out of the church eventually because they would be there all night talking to each other.

So I'm wondering.

I was like, I wonder if it's almost like lurking.

Like you're together and then you're socially don't know what to say.

Right.

And you're not on the stage, so you're just.

So it's uncomfortable.

And then you're just like, why, I'm out of here.

I'm just gonna go back to where I'm comfortable.

That's consoling.

I spent a year in Ames and we didn't see that kind of response.

But they dispersed so easily, so they're so loosely connected.

It sounds like.

Yeah, I think that's true.

Yeah.

You said, isn't great with communication and commitment.

Well, I did it with that one.

But I guess I asked, how does that translate into committing to a church?

You had some thoughts on that in your article.

Yeah.

I mean, yeah, I can't remember what I said in this article.

Well, they get something, they own it.

If somebody's framed it like, they understand it.

Yeah, I think that's true.

Like, if you give them a purpose.

I think we don't actually ask enough of our college students.

And so I think if there was a church that had college students coming to it and they said, hey, here's the nursery sign up.

Right?

Like, sign up for nursery.

Hey, we need these chairs moved on Tuesday night.

So who's going to come and move the chairs?

Like, I think if you gave them, think about how that takes the social anxiety off.

Right.

When you have a job to do and you walk into a building and they say, hey, hand these bulletins out to every person who comes in.

Like, all of a sudden you feel more comfortable.

You're stepping inside a structure.

And so I think if we use that structure, lean on that structure, I think that would make people feel more comfortable.

I wonder how much of that is we're assuming too much, that they know too.

Know more than they do and that, you know, generally the mistake we make is that we think they they're ignoring it versus they are ignorant of it.

I agree.

Dead.

And that's the instructions.

I mean, you, you had somebody that said, if you make it very clear what the expectations are, how it's going to be done, they're all over it.

But without that, they flounder.

It seems like, yeah.

And I think that not only social media, but we just live in a, we live in a culture that's less formal than it used to be.

Right.

We wear less formal clothes, we say less formal things to each other.

We.

I was even thinking about that.

Like, man, you used to have to plan ahead so carefully with rides, places for your kids, and now you can text somebody.

I don't even have to text my kid.

Right.

I can look, be like, oh, where is my 18 year old?

I can see on my phone where he is.

Yeah, exactly.

I don't have to like, plan ahead of time.

We're just much less, we're much more informal.

We're much less planned out than we used to be.

And I think so.

I think for kids who are growing up not only with their social media, but also in that kind of a culture, it can also be like, but I don't know what to do.

Then there's no, you know, there's no sort of expectations of what you do when, oh, do I shake your hand and look you in the eye and smile and say, hi, Mr.

So and so.

Like, I don't.

That's not.

Nobody teaches me that anymore.

We don't, we just say like, oh, hey, Tom.

Or, you know, we're just, we're so much more relaxed.

And so it just, it just opens up.

Yeah.

Ambiguity.

Ambiguity and that.

Well, and that.

And it's funny you use that word because they don't handle that well at all.

And then when you go into faith, that's all ambiguity.

A lot of it is.

And they're scared spitless of that.

I.

So the, all the guys, all the people that you interviewed, because there were some people from the Bronx or wait a minute, Brooklyn.

Yeah.

We're talking to a guy from uic, another one at Berkeley.

What a diverse group of people.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, if you boil down some of their.

What, what does the church need to hear?

How would you summarize that?

Yeah.

You can have.

I didn't know you had Gen Z in your house.

So my condolences.

They can be great.

They can be.

Oh, absolutely.

I like hanging out with them.

They give me life.

But I got millennials and Gen Xers here, so I'm the older generation.

Yeah.

Yeah, that makes sense.

I think what the church can hear is, or if I could say one thing to the church, it would be to create a place where they can hear the Gospel.

Because if you keep pointing your kids to their sin and their need for a savior and his love for them, then that's an environment where they will thrive no matter what generation that they are in.

So that is.

Is number one.

And I think that also provides for them the identity that they're looking for.

The structure that they're looking for, it takes away.

Yep.

There's ambiguity all over it.

But really, if you.

If you're reading your Bible and you're into your Bible, there's also a lot of structure.

Right.

It's not shy about telling you how to live.

And so I think the more you submit yourself to that and do your quiet times, I think the more comfortable you'll feel.

Because you know what?

Don't we all just want to feel like we're doing the right thing?

Am I doing the right thing?

Is this the right thing?

Should I go to this college?

Should I major in this?

Should I do this with my kids?

Like your whole life you're asking, am I doing the right thing?

And so I think the only.

If you feel like you are, then you just feel so much more comfortable.

And I think that's what a life lived in the Gospel will do.

I also think pointing them to a healthy local church or an organization or a thing like somewhere where you can have Christian community that will stick with you, I think that's also going to be really healthy.

Well, some of that is the purpose behind what I formed is because the outpost groups are extra church, but they create some kind of community that they can talk about life as it really is, not as they want it to be, if you will.

And having those conversations are a little tough to accomplish because of all the things that we just talked about, with their sense of communication and connectedness and almost an intermediary of connectedness, not really in real time.

And the other thing that you mentioned that caught my attention, which I've been talking about lately, is the right.

And to some degree, there's almost a tyranny in them of rightness.

And there's a search for the mystery of right rather than how do I enter in and trust.

And this is not a generation about trust.

It really doesn't seem to be, at least from what I'm seeing.

Yeah, I think you're right.

And I wonder how much that enters into even their Relationship with God, for that matter.

Yeah, yep, yep.

I think you're right.

I think they would.

Their generation, it's, it's looking for truth, for something to trust, and yet they're not going to probably take that on face value.

Right.

And that comes from their looking at each other, showing the best part of.

The room, curated lives.

Yeah.

And it's not necessarily a bad thing to ask to dig in, to kick the tires on something a little bit.

And so that's not necessarily a bad thing.

It can become paralyzing, though, and exhausting when you can never kick, when you're just only kicking tires and you never get in the car and drive somewhere.

Yeah.

And I, you know, they are, they are the, you know, that byproduct of seeing churches run aground with overly charismatic leaders and all of that.

Did any of the folks you interviewed or the research you've done, does that come up?

I like the Mars Hill thing that was done from CT a number of years.

That's a really good question, to be honest.

Like, that has not.

And I'm still talking with Gen Z students.

I almost wonder if that's more a millennial or even Gen X thing, because people my age, well, I'm right on the edge of Gen X and millennial, but my people my age will talk about, I think millennials talk about a lot, but I don't, I'm not actually hearing that a lot from our younger.

From like the Gen Z's.

I don't know if they just aren't old enough.

Yeah, maybe they just, I don't know, maybe they just haven't lived through it yet or.

That could very much be it.

I mean, I, you know, I forget that they're the same age.

And I keep getting older and older and my jokes get worse and worse because they have no idea what I'm talking about.

And even the language, you had mentioned earlier about the language and kind of all the editing and self spectating they do on their language.

And I got corrected today.

I said to somebody, I called him a dude and he said, how dated.

Shoot.

I had one student who said something, she was reacting to something.

She was looking at it at registration or something like that.

And she said something to me about.

And.

And this doesn't even work, bruh.

And it's like, bruh.

Yep, yep.

That's where we're at.

Yeah.

And you got two sons.

Right?

So.

Yeah, I mean, they say bra all the time.

Yeah, my gosh.

Yeah.

That was only in Soul Train when I was growing up.

And people don't even remember that.

Oh, this is frightening.

I.

So the church.

There was one other thing that caught my attention when you said.

And it was the couple, I think that was in Brooklyn who talked about pre evangelism creating spaces for this rather than assuming they know God.

Creating a space for them to bump into relationships that maybe know God.

Yeah.

Isn't that interesting?

It is.

Which is really almost.

So Tim Keller, who wrote the Reason for God and then Making Sense of God.

The second one is actually almost like a prequel.

Like, okay, if you're in a culture that is less Christian and you can't even assume sort of a basic Christian knowledge or a basic Christian feeling of guilt or right and wrong.

Right.

If it's right and wrong is changing all the time.

And so you have to have a different conversation.

And one thing that they're finding that is attractive to Gen Z is.

Makes sense.

Community.

And so to invite them.

Lots of campus ministers that I talked to today have kids in their Bible studies and coming to their stuff who aren't Christians, who are there because their friends are there.

Maybe they're questioning what they believe, maybe they're not.

But they're just there because somebody loves them and cares for them, and it feels.

They can feel the realness of the relationship.

And so that's what is bringing them in the door.

Right.

The authenticity of the person that brings them.

Yes, that person loves me.

I come here and I sense from my leader that she cares about me for real.

Not just because I look cute in her picture or something.

Right.

Or not just because I can help in some way, but because just for who I am.

And then they.

Yeah, I'll come in that way.

The.

The Tony, I think Dentman that mentioned about how many of the students he was talking to were impacted by their grandparents, not their.

That's an amazing trend.

You know, I was just running into that again today because when I talk to, it's.

I think it's geographic.

This is so interesting.

When I talk to people who are like in the south or the Midwest, at a public university, they'll still tell me our kids here, it's their parents who had a Bible in the house, went to church on Christmas and Easter, at least knew who Jesus was.

Like there's some basic level.

And then I talked to a girl from Syracuse today, and she said the same thing as Toni Dentman who is in Chicago, which is.

It's a generation removed.

Like it's the grandparents.

And so I'm wondering if it is in sort of the more progressive areas, less Christian areas, northeast, Northwest, where it's a generation removed already.

And so that's a different conversation.

It's harder, it's slower going in those situations.

We have less access and all of that.

I mean, we're out here in the Mountain west, and I think I see a lot of that.

And I'm now in the grandparent stage, and I find that my grandsons are learning about Jesus and about relationship with Jesus through us, not through their parents.

And that's what jumped out of me with that comment.

So it probably is regional.

You're probably right on that.

Yeah.

Because I think.

I think my kids.

I mean, we went to a church in St.

Charles, and I think we have a comparison point because we have friends that are still at that church, and their kids came out of that.

And I think to some degree, and this isn't if only kind of thinking, but if we had stayed there, I wonder how my kids would be different versus coming out here to Colorado.

And Colorado demographically has changed a lot since we've been here.

We've been here 24 years.

But.

But, yeah, it's interesting to make the comparisons and see what happens with the grandparents, parents, and then the grandkids.

It's worth thinking about, because I do think who's around you probably affects our kids more than we think it does.

Sometimes we're sort of fatalistic, like.

Well, even if I'm like, I believe in a sovereign God, and so I believe, you know, and he's going to.

Of course God is sovereign, and he'll.

He'll.

If he's gonna get your kid, he's gonna get your kid.

But it does, you know.

Yeah.

It does make you just wonder about the people who are around them.

I think about that a lot because I hear a lot from public school parents whose kids are struggling with their sexuality.

And you can just.

I can just.

It's a pattern.

And these are kids who spend a lot of time online or are in public schools.

And so it just feels like that.

Yeah.

It's the people you surround yourself with.

Well, the Bible tells us.

Right.

Whoever walks in the council of the wise.

And so you're just.

Yeah, we probably should think about that more than we do as parents.

Yeah.

I mean, the challenge is feeling a little outmanned and outgunned because of the cultural milieu that we're in, you know, and our kids are in now.

My grandkids are in.

And even my.

My girls.

I.

I had four girls, so I was outmanned outgunned and awash of estrogen.

And.

And what?

They were right at the cusp of cell phones coming in.

And I can still remember, you know, MySpace on a phone, like, oh, this is not good.

This is really not good.

And.

And that was just the beginning.

I.

And then, you know, a lot of mental health issues went up, went way up after that.

And then social media took off and Facebook and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

So anyway.

Yeah, what.

So any.

Anyway, all of that to say thank you so much for your time.

If you kind of boil down some of what the church could do, and now you're a grizzled old veteran with Gen Z in the household, you know, outside of all the interviews that you did with that, I mean, you know, we've got a church that we go to here that is drawing.

And I understand now why they're drawing what they are, because they are not talking about, you know, come to Jesus.

They're saying, come to relationship.

And that's drawing these kids in.

And then we can get into, you can belong before you believe and, you know, things like that.

Is there any other kind of big ideas that you were walked away with after interviewing these folks?

Yeah, yeah.

I think we just have to be.

For parents, I would just say you almost cannot be too careful with protecting your kids.

Almost every boy, this is what campus ministers tell me.

Almost every boy that sits in front of them is addicted to pornography.

And so the few that aren't are a breath of fresh air, but there aren't very many of them.

And I said to one guy, tell me what those kids have in common.

If you're not addicted to pornography, how did you get to be like that?

And he said three things.

You have Christian parents in your house who told you about God's design for marriage and told you you shouldn't be looking at pornography.

Don't be doing that.

The second thing is that they set really strict limits on your screen time.

And he said, I don't even know what would be too strict, because nobody has yet said.

Nobody who's grown out of it has yet turned around and said that was too strict.

So is there a too strict?

I don't know.

So being very, very careful with that.

And then the third thing is that they came out of a homeschool or a Christian school situation.

And I think the reason for that is that in public schools, in many public schools, pornography for young Men is seen as a normal or a healthy thing.

And so there would be no reason why you wouldn't be able to indulge yourself in that.

So I just think for parents it's so hard to get out of a pornography addiction for your girls, you can just look at the statistics on it.

So I just think don't be afraid to put as many limits as you possibly can put on your kids screen time.

And for kids, for Gen Z kids themselves, I would just say you're not stuck, you're not a terrible generation.

The Lord loves you.

There is good things that he has for you.

So open yourself up to belief in Jesus and the amazing way he can transform your life.

And then plugging in with his people, your friends at school and find yourself a good local church or whatever it is, a stained glass group, whatever it is, to connect with people.

And what.

Because part of our Christian life is walking with each other.

And so that's what I would say to them.

And if I was a church, I would just say reach out to those college students, put them to work and.

Yeah, they got all the energy, don't they?

Yeah, that's right.

They got the energy and they can do it and they got the time and they're.

Yeah.

Well, that's fantastic.

I can't thank you enough.

Thank you for being a gaming gamer.

When it comes to being my guinea pig for doing these interviews, I probably will be in touch for other ideas and people that I can talk to like yourself.

But thanks so much for taking the time to do this, Sarah.

We really appreciate it.

You bet, no problem.

All right, well, there you have it.

I hope you enjoyed the interview.

It was a delight to spend some time with Sarah and get her observations.

Her article can be found on tgc.

Let's see.

I gotta get this right here.

If you look up six things Christians should know about Gen Z and it is on the Gospel Coalition website.

I will put a link on it in the show notes so that you can read it if you would.

So if you're interested in it.

But it was a good interview.

There were lots of things that I think she mentioned to talk about or about hopefully kind of framed in the experiences for Gen Z people.

And I suspect there are a fair number of them that are listening to this podcast and so I hope it helped out.

There will be others coming.

I have a crack team working on putting together a list for me so I can have some other people to interview.

And it will be on a variety of topics, not just the kind of surface characteristics that we had here with Gen Z.

But other topics that I think are of relevance that we talked about actually in terms of community, in terms of religious beliefs, spirituality and things like that that I think are going to be worth our while to take a look at, because after all, we're trying to create a place called the outpost that people can be a part of, that can talk about life as they know it and as they experience it, not as it should be, and a variety of other topics that are also part of that.

I mean, imagine just like with the intro that you walked in and you're looking for the latest information or the latest relationships and friendships of people that can walk with you on the journey through life and through your spiritual journey as well.

So again, thanks for joining me.

Thanks to Sarah Zylstra for taking some time out from her schedule to spend some time with us to reflect a little bit on what the world is like for the people that are in Gen Z.

All right, last of end of program reminders, which you're all accustomed to.

If you've been listening for any length of time.

This is usually when you turn it off, but I'll say it anyway.

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