What really works for businesses wanting to use podcasts as a marketing tool?

If you worry about there already being too much competition in the podcast space, this could be your episode as it turns out there’s plenty of room near the top.

Enjoying the content? Join me for the Podfluence Weekly newsletter HERE to get articles and show updates every week.

You are warmly invited to join other coaching & speaking professionals who are building their authority through podcasting in the Podfluencers Facebook Group and pick up your free download of The Complete Podcast Guest Superstar Framework

There are 2 things that fill my heart with joy: one is people sharing my episodes because they've been helpful and hopefully entertaining, and the other is people leaving reviews for Podfluence on Apple Podcasts or PodChaser. Either of these will earn my ever-lasting gratitude and both might just get you on my Christmas card list.

Of course, if you REALLY like the show, you're welcome to support Podfluence financially with our Supercast link Support the show 

Mentioned in this episode:

Podfluence Weekly

Join us for the official Podfluence Weekly newsletter https://present-influence.ck.page or Subscribe on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/build-relation/newsletter-follow?entityUrn=6882642444815519744

Welcome back to Podfluence, and I do say welcome back because this

is part two of my conversation with Neil Veglio and I do recommend that you

go back and listen to part one if you haven't already heard it, so that you

have the full context of everything that we talk about here, that's episode 164.

Previous to this one, very easy to go back and listen and in the first half of

our conversation we talked about things like whether you should be spraying out

tons of content and whether you should be listening to people like Gary V who

say that you need to be everything everywhere, all at once and who you can

actually trust in terms of podcast advice and all the gurus who are out there.

Now if you worry about there already being too much competition

in the podcasting space,

This could be your episode.

As it turns out, there's plenty of room near the top.

This is Podfluence, the show that helps you to grow your

influence and income with podcasts.

my name is John Ball.

My mission is to help you, the self-employed business coach, to

grow your influence and income

so you can have a continuously thriving coaching business.

That said, if you are a service-based solopreneur, I believe you will

find this content just as helpful.

We tend to think that there is huge competition in the podcasting space,

but the reality seems to be that there is a very little valuable

and quality content out there.

So part one of my chat with Neil pulls back the curtain on some of the not so

good aspects of the podcast world here.

In part two, we start to highlight some of the opportunities available

to people in podcasting for business.

So if you want to know whether you should start off as a guest or a host, what

makes a podcast good, and why there's only one real way for most people to

make money outta podcasts and whether it's worth having a newsletter or not.

Then stay tuned.

If you do have your advice in your hand right now, do me a favor and click the

plus button on Apple Podcast or Spotify or alternatively, click on whatever

is available to subscribe with on your listening platform so that you get weekly

updates of Podfluence as they drop.

Now pop in your EarPods and let's get into part two of my

conversation with Neil Veglio

one of the things I'll often say and focus on, particularly with the

show is the guesting side podcast, guesting as a way a means for growth.

And I base this on my own experience, so I is somewhat biased toward that

of like, if I could go back to when I first started getting involved in

podcasting, I would start as a guest rather than as a host, because I feel

for me, I did it the wrong way around..

I know that probably not everyone necessarily agrees with that, but I

just wonder what your thoughts are for anyone who is looking to get

into podcasting, using podcasting as a way to grow their audience and

become more known for what they do.

You might not like my answer to this because

, because it's one of those why

I I want, I want with hear different opinions.

I don't just want to hear what, what I think carries it back.

Thing.

Well, no, I mean, what I mean is I, I think, you know, I'd like to

give you a really simple audience friendly answer, which will give

them, a practical takeaway, an actionable, tip that they can, apply.

Cuz that's what I like to do.

But in this case, it really isn't as simple as do one way or another.

, I know several people who don't want to do their own podcast,

but love being guests on other people's podcasts, and that's fine.

And I'm sure they're getting minimal results from that.

And then on the other hand, you get people that don't wanna do guesting at all.

They just wanna do their own podcast.

And again, absolutely fine, valid.

They'll get results from that.

And then you get people that want to do both.

They want to be a podcast host and they want to be a guest,

and they want to have guests.

What I'll say to you is, is this it?

It's all irrelevant really, because it doesn't come down to whether you do

guesting or you are a guest or whatever.

It's all just stuff.

It doesn't really matter because the listeners don't care whether you are

guesting on other people's podcast anymore than you have guests on your own podcast.

The listeners want content.

That's it.

And the sooner we get away from podcasting, being like television

and radio, Or even like YouTube, where it's largely driven

by entertainment parameters.

The content that you are watching on those channels, the content that

you're listening to on the radio, it's appointment to listen to radio.

Yes.

But it's also background and you have to be engaged enough with a presenter

to make the appointment to listen to your favorite programs on, you know,

like the Archers perfect example.

In the uk, if you're outside of the uk, the Archers is a daily radio four

Drama where, you know it's essentially about farmers or doing weird stuff

in the countryside and people love it and they make an appointment,

you know, as lunchtime listening.

They'll sit there and they'll follow the drama and they've

done for many years, yeah.

People in their seventies and eighties still religiously listened to this

program now because they grew up with it.

That's very different from what podcasting is.

Podcasting is literally appointment to listen to content.

Content, not presenters.

Okay.

Let me make this clear, because this is where the waters can get muddied.

I'm not suggesting that people are sitting there.

Making an appointment to listen to your podcast.

They are making an appointment to listen to the content that

your podcast might cover, right?

If you can get them over the line to become someone that makes an

appointment to listen to your podcast, that covers the content

that they want to hear, you've won.

But that's the point you have to understand here is that

it's not about the guests.

It's not about you necessarily at this point.

It's about your content and the content.

We have to remember this.

It's not about us, it's about the listener.

We are having to super serve the listener, get them the content they

want in these massive things they've got on the sides of their head.

That they then feel they're getting ear candy from, to then feel that

they've had a valuable experience.

Because if they don't value the experience of listening to your

content, they ain't listening.

It's the same whether you've got a decent guest or a terrible guest.

The guest is irrelevant.

So my, the way I would put it in answer to your question about, what would I advise?

They do it as a guest first or go straight in with their own.

It doesn't really matter, as long as the content that you're putting out

there is resonating with your ideal listener, you can go about it either way.

I would say if you're going on as a guest only, you've got much

less chance of connecting with that listener and taking them.

It's like not having a mailing list.

If you're not gonna have a mailing list and you're just relying on social

media, how are you gonna continue the relationship and deepen it?

And have a transaction.

You need to do the work you need to build the community that your ideal

listener can get involved with.

Yeah.

No I like that.

I like that as an answer.

And it kind of ex also explains very well why the sort of random bullshit talk about

everything, real talk kind of podcast.

Don't go anywhere as well.

They don't work.

What, what are you go, what are you listening for?

I, I had in my many conversations as a sales rep , where I was selling

podcast training courses I'd often come across people who'd were coming from

broadcasting careers into podcasting.

And I feel that there are some very significant differences between

broadcasting and podcasting.

And you are someone who made that move a long time ago, and you've been

in podcasting a long time, so, You are probably a great person to answer

what some of those key distinctions are between the two formats.

I'll tell you this.

I was doing podcasting while I was still broadcasting.

In the radio industry we weren't allowed to take contrary to what

people think, unless you're a massively famous radio broadcaster like a

Chris Moyles or a a Chris Evans.

You know, we had to work for our money during the week as

non-famous presenters, and a lot of us had like other jobs that

we did around radio stations.

Mine happened to be the podcasting side of things because I understood it.

It was something I did as a hobby before I even started taking off to

the fact it became mainstream that radio stations would want to do it.

So, I had these battles with management on a regular basis where they were

saying, we, we did really well at is the audience measurements system

that is put together by Ofcom and, we're getting really great results.

Why are we not getting the same numbers on our podcast?

And they didn't seem to understand that.

, you can't just get in your car and turn the radio on and the podcasts are there.

It's a very different approach.

And I think the major difference that broadcasters don't understand, and it took

me a while to get it at the beginning, is that the content just needs to be

presented in a very different way.

In radio shows you'd have your big showbizzy intro.

There was a lot of production there.

And then it was like the big voiceover and it was like, Neil Veglio on Jack FM was

one of the radio stations I worked for.

And we had like, music beds that would roll on and then we'd be like, you know

what we called Fader wanking, where you would talk a bit, bring the Fader back

up, let music channel bring the fader down, talk again, put the fight, That

just doesn't work in podcasting because you need to get across the point, within

the first seven seconds, full stop.

And if your podcast episode doesn't engage the listener within those first

seven seconds, your toast, you're done.

You skipped someone else's podcast is gonna get your time.

And I think this is what broadcasters don't understand is

that it's all very well to think, oh, I know how to communicate.

I've communicated with audiences on the radio.

That's way more impactful than a podcast that an amateur or a hobbyist can

do, and this is what they don't get.

Actually, it's harder podcasting.

Getting engaged audiences through a podcast is way, way harder than sitting

there on a radio station, you know, in a radio studio with a microphone that

is connected through the airways to

thousands of willing listeners.

It's a very different experience, and I think that's why a lot of them

don't really get the fundamentals, and that's why they get stressed out

and frustrated, especially if they're working with clients, if they're, ex

broadcasters that have now pivoted into becoming producers and podcast managers.

I think they struggle with the idea that publishing your podcast episode

to your hosting company is not enough.

That's the start, and this is where the, a lot of their journeys, they start

with recording the content with their client, editing it, getting rid of a

few ums, but not too many because of course in radio we don't like removing

ums because that sounds inhuman.

They've obviously never learned to edit properly because it's live radio, but

that's another argument for another day.

It always makes me laugh when I hear that.

Don't chop out too many ums cuz it sounds robotic.

Please.

And I think this is the fundamental difference, they don't understand the

nuances of why you don't need to keep these radio rules about being human and

being freeform and having personality.

They're not relevant.

People are not listening to your podcast episode to hear you

do one liners about the Queen.

God rest her soul.

If you can.

Okay.

Maybe a bit seen, maybe a bit soon for one liners, , . Some people are still,

some people are still reeling from that.

I've had a very.

Fortunate habit, I think of just kind of falling into

stuff in my life, just luckily.

No, I've been very lucky in, in many ways.

I, I had a whole career with British Airways, which I just kind of fell into

. Didn't even ask me how I ended up there.

I just did I was

free travel.

Obvious.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well,

I mean, that, that was pretty cool.

I had, I had a lot of fun when I was there.

But podcasting is one of those things as well.

It's kind of accidentally fell into it.

people often hear me tell the story of I started a podcast back in 2012

and did maybe six episodes of it.

It's still out there somewhere.

I haven't taken it down.

Maybe I should.

I was just about to have my first ever guest on when I like

thought, ah, this isn't worth it.

Impacted it.

You see that?

Lewis Howes

. Neal Veglio: Oh no,

. John Ball: So, you know, that wasn't

back to this again in 2019 and it was just a bit of fun project.

And I spent probably at least three years just fumbling around, not

really knowing what I was doing and just putting out the content.

Cause I was kind of enjoying it and felt like I had some value, but not

really seeing a lot come from that.

But now getting much more intentional about things now, narrowing the focus.

Aims of the show have really helped a lot, and getting to learn from people like

yourself makes a big difference as well.

In terms of, all right, I should be, here's what I may be doing.

Well, here's where I should maybe be looking for some growth and focus.

Where do you feel right now are the biggest opportunities in podcasting

for people who are business owners or really looking to maybe either

have their podcast be a business or grow their business through podcast?

I would immediately try and talk them out of having the

podcast become a business, a full stop.

Unless there's some people that, that doesn't apply to,

but they are the less than 1%.

I mean, if you are Barack Obama, then of course you're gonna go to Audible and

do an exclusive, I, you're Barack Obama.

If you are Richard Branson, then of course you're gonna do a podcast as a business.

I think there's a danger in these companies like Acast and audible and what,

all these exclusive platforms that promise to take your content and make you famous.

I think there's a lot of pressure on you as a podcaster if you are

entering into that kind of a deal,

there's a lot of pressure on you to deliver.

And it's a cutthroat business as we've seen.

I mean, Spotify have been getting rid of some pretty high profile shows recently,

and these are not just anybody, you know, these are like famous people.

And I think what that does is that indicates actually how imperative it

is that you have a brand established before you start podcasting.

If you are gonna make it into a business, it just isn't gonna work if you are not

famous, high profile, huge influencer.

Okay, let's just say that now.

I'm sorry if that hurts your feelings.

If you've got 20,000 followers on LinkedIn and everyone comments on your stuff

and makes you feel like you're really popular, Your podcast is not gonna take

off because you're not famous enough.

What you can do is use it as a platform, as a marketing tool for what you do

to sell your higher ticket items.

But I would always, always discourage anybody from trying

to make money from their podcast and treating it as the product.

It should always be the marketing tool.

You are the product.

Your podcast isn't the product.

Your podcast is the marketing platform for which you can sell yourself.

Yeah, I, I wonder actually, cause I, I know some of the podcast

podcasters who you work with and help and one, one of them, Wendy Harris was a guest

on the show and a great guest as well.

And I really like Wendy and So I see some of the content you help them get out in

the word now and no wonder just that this may be too big a question for you to be

able to reasonably answer, but as a best guess, how many, or maybe as a percentage,

how many people or podcasts out there do you feel probably are actually doing a

good job with the format and putting out valuable content as opposed to people who

are, just pumping out content for the sake of pumping out content or throwing out

unedited crap and all this kind of stuff.

Would you have any thoughts about what, based on what you see, how

many people are doing this well

in terms of putting out good content?

Fewer than 1%.

Fewer than 1%.

I would say the majority of podcasts being pumped out there

are that they're being pumped out.

It's people that have I, you know, no idea what they're doing to start with.

Largely big brands have no clue what they're doing with podcasts.

They just, majority of corporate big brands are literally saying to their

marketing teams, we need a podcast.

That's it.

Make it.

With literally no direction, no vision.

If you want to be successful at podcasting, you need somebody who's

helming it that has vision and goals for what they want it to achieve, and

nine times out of 10, what you'll see is a C E O has turned around to his

marketing team or her marketing team.

Their marketing team.

And said, we want a podcast, make it happen.

And the marketing team had gone, okay right, so what do we do?

And then it falls on them to then rush into a panic research

what they think a podcast is.

Invariably they're gonna look at other podcasts and they're gonna go,

oh, that's those things where you get two people in a room and they have

a conversation about their thing.

That's right, we are gonna do that.

I was consulting with I'm not gonna name them just because I don't think

it's fair because they shouldn't be tainted as a brand based on their

podcasting strategy, but mm-hmm.

, I was working with a major high street bank, big deal bank, like

you would a household name and

I'm gonna ask you for that after we record, but

, Neal Veglio: I might, Shiff we'll see.

Okay.

And they.

A high profile presenter, but the problem was they didn't

understand what a podcast was.

What they thought a podcast was was a way of them pontificating

about their financial products and helping general audiences on

LinkedIn, on Facebook or wherever.

Again, it was at largely video podcast cuz the audio wasn't being invested in

very much and that's what they thought a podcast was, whereas, Another bank

that I've seen in American Bank, this is that I wasn't working with, they

understood what their end goal was.

Their end goal was to engage young listeners to become more savvy with money.

Their thought process was if these people are listening to us when

they're younger, when they come of age, Who are they gonna go to when

they need to do their investments?

So they played the long-term game.

They're still going now, they played the long-term game of if we get

people when they're 16, 17, they're about to, embark on their careers

and their, their journeys in life.

But in maybe 3, 4, 5 years time, once they've graduated or once they've got into

their career, they might have disposable income that they'll want to invest.

So that's what we're gonna do.

We're gonna create the content that is useful to them, so they know that we've

had their back all through their formative years, so that when they're in a position

to spend their money, and it'll be big money, we're the bank they're going to.

Yeah.

And that's the trick to this.

It's not about selling you and what you do, it's about selling the trust.

It's about selling the relationship, building that relationship.

And if that means that you've gotta spill all your secrets on your podcast,

And 70% of your audience never buys from you because you've given them

everything that they need to know.

Thanks very much.

Goodbye.

So be it because it's the 30% that you wanna work with, because they're the ones

that are gonna be, well actually, yeah, you've given me everything I need to know.

So number one, you built the trust already that box is ticked, but

now you've told them your process.

They understand how you work.

They trust that you know what you're doing, but they

want you to do it for them.

And that's the key to this is understanding the difference between

the gatekeeping content that most podcasters put out there, where it's

like, yeah, okay, so you know, we're gonna talk about this thing, but I'm not

gonna give you any insight whatsoever.

I'm just gonna literally give you round the house's content.

And if you wanna know the answers, well you better book a call with us.

Yeah.

And that's not what my podcast guys are doing.

My podcast guys, they've given it all now and they're saying to you, if you need.

If you need further direction, if you need further handholding on this, guess what?

You can book a call with me and I'll be happy to help you.

They're not selling their giving, and that's the trick.

It's like anything in business, nobody buys from people.

That takes, takes, takes,

and, and it's about then in terms of this style of podcasting,

becoming that trusted advisor.

100%.

Becoming the trusted more than becoming the trusted advisor.

Becoming the trusted advisor that you actually feel has your back long term,

isn't trying to close a sale, isn't trying to fill their bank account for

another month, but you are actually wanting to be accountable to them and

take them through the journey long term.

That's an important distinction and one that's probably good for people

to hold in mind for business, not just for their podcasting as well, right?

I mean, it's good ethos to have about how you operate in

business in general, I think.

So I'm gonna give us some great ideas and you've already shared this, like

some of the ways you can unethically grow a podcast and some of the things

that probably, definitely shouldn't be doing or spending too much time focus.

What are the main things, the main areas that you recommend people focus on

for podcast growth or audience growth?

That do actually make a difference.

Don't do anything until you got the content right.

Simple as that.

You need to have content.

And when I say about content, right?

Delve into what that means because content being right to one person might

be absolute trash to somebody else.

But there is a fundamental here that covers all.

Okay.

And I do laugh when I see this argued with on the Facebook podcasting

groups, because they don't get it.

Sound quality.

You are in a sound medium, okay?

And you are gonna have hundreds of thousands of people out there that

are just literally rocking up to this.

And they're getting their phone and they're recording

their podcasts in their phone.

Okay.

Yeah.

And so to them that's enough.

And I'm afraid it's not.

It just isn't, and this whole content is king, is something that has

been, done is better than perfect.

It's that participation trophy ethos, which has surfaced

recently with younger generations.

The showing up is half the battle.

It's not okay.

Showing up is the start you need to give to your listener.

and give them an enjoyable experience.

So it needs to be content, but it needs to be content that I enjoy listening to.

Because if you are not willing to invest in a cheap U USB plugin

microphone, this isn't one.

This is an xlr by the way.

I'm pointing at this, but this is actually not one I'm talking about.

But you know, mine is . You are.

Okay.

So, but a USB microphone like the one you've got that will do with the job.

Okay.

It's good enough.

What I don't want to hear is people talking through Oh, oh no.

Welcome along to their podcast.

I'm using my laptop microphone because that's all I can be bothered.

No, nobody wants to hear that.

Literally nobody wants to hear that.

Even your Mum won't listen to that podcast.

She'll tell you she is cuz she wants to encourage you darling, but she's

not even listening to that podcast.

It is all about making sure that when I listen to your podcast, I'm not

immediately going, oh my God, could they not even be bothered to buy a microphone?

I'm, I'm not talking about those things that come around your head and

like the blooming Zoom microphones.

I'm talking a proper fit for purpose.

Microphone, 80 pounds.

$80 on Amazon.

You can get yourself not talking about the Blue Yeti.

By the way, the podcast microphone I recommend is the Samson q2u.

Oh, I hate Blue Yetis.

They are worst.

Save that

. John Ball: I did, I did have a Blue Yeti.

I'm very clever.

I don't still have it now.

. Uh, but yeah, I have a, this, this is a, a Samson Q9U

uh, perfect.

Anything from Samp?

Not anything, but most of the things from Sam, they will do the job.

And it, what you are doing is you're giving your listener

a more pleasant experience.

I'm not asking you to produce something that's been audio engineered, has got rid

of all the background noise, you know, has nice eq, has a good has filtration on it.

Dynamic processing is modulated it's mixed down and mastered to minus 14 laughs.

I'm not asking you to do all that.

I'd love it if you would do all that , but I'm not asking you to do that.

What I'm asking you to do is to produce content that I can actually

hear that I'm not straining and turning the volume in my car.

Because I listened to a lot of podcasts in my car, that is a really good way of

separating the wheat from the chaff, trust me, because if you've got a badly recorded

podcast, you ain't hearing it in your car.

All the road noise.

This is what I'm talking about.

It's about having a nice microphone, a decent enough, not expensive, a decent

enough affordable microphone that will bring out the clarity of your voice, make

it nice and pleasant to listen, to make the content sound good and digestible.

Don't give me 90 minutes.

Podcast.

If it needs to be 10 minutes long, I don't need to hear what you did

with your dog in the park on Sunday.

That's something we can talk about on LinkedIn in a direct message

conversation once we bridge that gap.

Right now, all I want to hear is these things.

Number one.

What are you gonna help me with?

How can you help me?

Who are you, what can you do to help me?

And what am I gonna get out of listening to your episode?

Simple as that.

Yeah, no, I like that.

I, did you ever, did you watch the the White Lotus, the

TV show, the White?

I haven't, I've heard about it.

Ah, it's so, it's

so good.

Anyway the second series of that, there's a bit with the Jennifer

Coolidge's character is in a conversation with this guy and he

says, oh tell me about yourself.

And then she, Oh well, I, I was born in this place and I grew up here.

like, oh, we're going all the way back, . And it's like, this seems like a lot

of people do that in their podcasting.

And I know I've been guilty of this and I have done it and this is what

I say, I fumbled around for a lot of time and edit did all the things

that you're not supposed to do.

So all the stuff that you might hear me saying, aye yeah, you

shouldn't do this, shouldn't do that.

done it , you know, I've done it and I know that's why you shouldn't do it.

So I'm not accusing you saying, expecting everyone should know this stuff.

But this is one of my biggest pet peeves now in podcasts

about people starting the shows.

Like, oh yeah, no.

He's like, what?

How was your weekend?

What have you been up to?

I don't care.

I don't care how your weekend . I mean, not you personally, Neil, but someone who

I'm listening to on a podcast who I've never met, I have no idea who they are.

Two people who work for the same company doing their sort of in-house podcast.

Oh, the worst.

Up to, oh, by that thing we went out to the other night, oh, please, please stop.

Just get straight to the information to the point because that

ultimately is what people want.

And we have know, it's a busy world.

We have a lot less time for fluff, for things that don't really

matter and ultimately want your podcast to be a bit more impactful.

I love what you're saying about sound quality.

I think it really matters in terms of podcasting.

One more sort of quick topic before we start to wind things

up, but what are your thoughts on something like podcast newsletters?

So, for me, they're kind of one, it depends what you are doing.

If you are a business, then a podcast newsletter.

It will help.

Is it vital?

I don't know.

I'm, it's not my area of super expertise, but what I can tell you by

experience is that if you are trying to build a community, then a newsletter

is by far the best way of doing it.

there is nothing better.

If you're a business podcast and you're treating your podcast as a.

Which you should be.

You should be a marketing tool that should feed into your wider business.

I think people are not gonna wanna read about your business in your

podcast, business newsletter.

So it's a great way of you bringing the topics you are talking about

in your podcast to your business newsletter that you're sending

out to your wider clients.

Reason being, it's gonna be a lot more touchy-feely because hopefully if you

followed the tips I've mentioned earlier, you're not gonna be doing a hard sell.

You're gonna be giving all insight.

So in terms of having a podcast newsletter, I would say it's an

absolute, yeah, it's a good start.

I would feather it into your main newsletter if you're a business.

If you are a podcast that's doing it for fun, then having a podcast

newsletter is a great way of, building that community, growing your audience.

You can have both.

I know people that do.

I certainly do it myself.

I have both.

I have my, my podcast newsletter and I have a wider brand newsletter, but I think

I invest more in the podcast newsletter than I do in the brand newsletter.

Ridiculously and like all podcast gu I'm contradicting

myself cuz that's what we do.

We are contradictory.

We do the things that we we're really good at and the things

that we are not so good at

we sort of let slide a bit.

So, one of the things I've actually challenged myself to do this year, and

you might have even noticed this, I'm actually doing a LinkedIn newsletter

now, which is around the podcast.

I do, yes.

Yes, and I have the podcast newsletter as well, and I've stopped doing the branded

newsletter for a very simple reason.

I think if someone wants to engage with me on a business level.

Then they're probably not gonna do it through my business newsletter

because that is literally, it's a marketing tool that's selling services.

They're more likely to engage and following the advice that I've just

mentioned, where they're gonna wanna get the insights, they're gonna wanna

build that relationship with me.

And I think the better way they'll build the relationship with me is through

my podcast and my podcast newsletter.

They're gonna get the tips.

They're gonna realize and understand, oh, this guy kind

of does know what he's talking.

He's got, a flavor of the wider marketing space, but he certainly knows podcasting.

So if I wanna do business with somebody that absolutely specialize in podcasting,

then this is the guy that I probably need to talk to, and I think that's

the key thing to understand here is you've got to know who your audience is.

If your audience is not interested in corporate message, What's

the point of doing a newsletter that literally just does that?

This is the mistake we see a lot of companies doing.

How many emails do you delete from your inbox every week where

it's just people talking about the latest offers, nobody cares.

Whereas the ones where it's, I don't know, maybe copywriters

offering tips or journalists.

Sorry.

PR people offering you advice on how to really reach out to journalists

or podcast experts who are giving you advice on how to improve your podcast.

Those are the things you wanna read because you're

getting something from them.

Yeah, no I get that.

And I started a LinkedIn newsletter at the beginning of last year and ha

have in that time managed to build up an astounding 400 subscribers.

, Neal Veglio: same thing.

Yeah.

But I'm really pleased about that.

And you I know that probably even a substantial portion to them.

Oh no, they just maybe clicked that they would subscribe to it because

at the time, nearly not every other person did have a LinkedIn newsletter.

Now it's like, you're probably getting invitations to LinkedIn newsletters every

other day if you're active on there.

So no, I feel that some of it has come from that.

And yeah I'm very happy for everyone who has subscribed cuz probably at least half

that amount subscribed to the newsletter.

Without being invited to do so.

From Luke, from my connections list.

And I think that to me is sort of like, okay, that's great.

You know, if I walk into any room that has like 50 or a hundred or 200 people

in it and I get a chance to speak to them or present something to them, I'm

gonna feel that that's valuable time.

And so that's one of the things I think about podcasting in general,

is I, I don't care if it, if somebody has a small audience or if I have a

small audience, if I'm speaking to the right people and providing value to

them, I will build and grow from that.

And that's what people are gonna appreciate.

It's what I try to do and I do what a lot of podcasters do.

I listen to my own shades before I publish them.

Brilliant . Because I think maybe you had agree with the story,

but I just think a lot of people clearly don't that you mentioned

it earlier about the audio quality.

It's not just that, but I could think of many times where you start listening to a

show and somebody introduces it and then the music comes on and it just blasts out.

, you are listening at one level and then the intro music blasts out, or

they're talking over the intro and you can't hear what they're saying

because the music is too loud behind all these kinds of things that they're

doing to try and be more professional.

Anyway, I'm ranting now, but , but those are things that I think,

yeah, please, please, please, people listen to your own podcast.

If you're creating content, you should check it before you put it

out and make sure that you would want to consume it for yourself.

Because I think that's the first.

And that's only the first

one.

Right?

And in addition to that, what I would say is if you want to be really, really good,

you wanna go next level, then try and work ahead to the point that you can listen to

the episodes before they go out good five to 10 days after you've recorded them.

Because what you'll do is you'll listen to them in a very different sense than

when you recorded and edited them, okay?

So, you're recording them and you're hearing them in your in, in real.

Then the next time you hear them, when you are editing them, you're

hearing them in a different, again, in a slightly different head space.

As an editor, but you're still not fully stepping back from being creator.

So if you do it 5, 6, 7, 8 days later, you're gonna be coming from

creator mode to audience mode.

And that's when the magic happens.

When you start picking up on the things that, oh, I didn't

realize I said that bit there.

Oh, that probably doesn't sound good actually.

Oh, oh, that's a bit loud there.

Actually.

I don't like that.

I'm gonna drop that down.

Oh, that sound effect doesn't need to be there.

And you start.

Approaching your own work in a more critical passion, which is exactly how

your listeners will be listening to it.

I

like that cuz I think I do that when I'm writing.

I don't necessarily do that with podcasts, so I'm gonna implement that for myself.

I'm gonna take that piece of advice and put into action

and hope other people will.

It is been so much fun, Neil, and it's one of those conversations I

think we could go on but I think we've covered a lot of valuable.

Stuff and probably some of the key stuff that I wanted to get to with you as well.

And given people, a very clear sense of what not to be doing, what's

kind of going on in podcasting where there's opportunities and

we've covered a lot of ground today.

What's coming up for you?

What are the things that you are focusing on for for the rest of

maybe this year, the upcoming year?

Well, depending when this goes out I'm doing a talk at Pod Fest.

I'm really delighted and excited about that.

Pod Fest is, for me, one of the biggies.

It's probably the podcast festival.

I know podcast movement, every, that gives all the showbiz and all the headlines.

But I think in terms of actual, Festivals that is the one that, lot

of people take notice of, and there's a lot of knowledge shared there.

It's not a lot of upsell going on.

So I'm really delighted and happy to be a part of that.

In terms of the rest of the year, God, I mean, hopefully more shows like this.

I'm really trying to, well, I've been co I've become guilty of being

swamped by the content myself and I'm actually spending so much time in terms

the, the production process, I've not actually been able to spend as much

time as I'd like on the creating side.

So I will be investing more time in creating, whether

that be, my own podcasts, the newsletters, as I've mentioned,

I'm stepping the game up on that.

I'm also looking to do a live soon.

I don't wanna say too much about that at the moment, but I'm

looking to try and make some of the podcasting news a bit more

interesting and a bit more accessible.

So if you follow me on LinkedIn, you'll see notifications of

that coming, but that's probably gonna be in the next few weeks.

I'm looking to do something a little bit different from that.

I know, obviously I'm a massive fan of pod news and what

James Cridland is doing there.

Absolutely brilliant.

I would never in a million years ever be able to compete with that, but I've got

a slightly different take, so I'm hoping that will be interesting to some people.

. John Ball: Okay.

Well, I'm looking forward to that.

And I'll suddenly look out for your pod fest.

I'm gonna be speaking there myself this year on a fantastic, on a panel, on a

panel this year, which I wasn't expecting.

Yeah.

But that's gonna be fun.

So yeah, I will definitely look out for you there and for

anyone who gets the chance, if.

If I make, if I make an effort, I can get this out before Pod , before

podcast, before Pod Fest comes out because we've been talking about it.

Don't worry, you'll be on demand as well.

So don't, you don't need to rest it.

Bit that'll

that We'll include the link to, to some free tickets for people as well.

Cause Fantastic talking to talk about.

Great Neil, it's been such a joy and I know we're gonna probably have some

conversations again in the future.

This has been a very entertaining and informative chat as I knew it would be.

Thanks so much for coming and being a

guest on Podfluence.

Thanks very much for having me on.

Well, thanks for tuning in and if you are getting this episode just

after it's been published, then podcast Global 2023 is just around the corner,

both myself and Neil will be there speaking and you can join us for free

as my guest by using my unique special discount code and the link that you'll

find at the bottom of the show notes.

Or if you prefer, connect with me on LinkedIn and I'll send

you the information personally.

Next time on the show.

It is just gonna be me by myself.

But do look out for the first bonus guest episodes that I'll be dropping very soon.

I'm busy working on a membership site where you're gonna have free access

to some exclusive content from me

as well as access to back issues of the Podfluence weekly newsletter.

If you're not already subscribed and you'd also like to get access to my Pre-Going

Live podcast checklist, you can find the link to register in the show notes.

That's it for me for this week.

Wherever you're going, whatever you're doing, have an amazing rest of your day.