In this timely and insightful episode, Joe Fier sits down with SEO industry pioneer Jason Barnard, who brings 27 years of experience in search optimization to the table. As AI-driven platforms like Google, ChatGPT, and TikTok play an increasingly decisive role in how businesses are found online, the discussion dives deep into how to take real control of your digital identity, build trust with AI, and position yourself for the next era of search. Jason breaks down the importance of knowledge panels, the rise of walled gardens, and the urgent need for brands to become understandable and credible—before it's too late.

Topics Discussed

• The New Age of Search: Why traditional SEO tactics are no longer enough and how AI-powered engines now guide users down the decision funnel.
• AI’s Role in Brand Discovery: How platforms like Google, ChatGPT, and TikTok are shaping who gets found online—sometimes knowing more about your business than your own customers.
• Building a Walled Garden: Strategies to keep users engaged on your website and nurture them through your own content funnel, not just Google’s or TikTok’s.
• The Importance of Knowledge Panels: What they are, why they’re a KPI for algorithmic understanding, and how to structure your website and online presence to earn one.
• Content Creation for the Future: Why up-to-date information and unique data (“information gaps”) will be more valuable than ever as AI saturates standard topics.
• Bot Traffic and the Bot Economy: The surprising reality of how much bot traffic comes from TikTok, Meta, Amazon, and even mysterious newcomers (like Petalbot).
• Protecting & Optimizing Your Content: How to use tools like Cloudflare to control which bots can access your content—balancing visibility with site performance and business goals.
• Action Steps for Digital Understandability: How to create an effective “About” page and build an infinite loop of self-corroboration across the web to make your brand machine-readable.

Resources Mentioned

• Kalicube –  https://kalicube.com/guides
• Jason Barnard - https://jasonbarnard.com/
• Google Search Results for Jason Barnard - https://www.google.com/search?q=jason+barnard
• Cloudflare – https://www.cloudflare.com/
• Scott Duffy – https://scottduffy.com/
• Gert Mellak - https://gertmellak.com/

Connect with Joe Fier

🤖 Chat with Joe's AI Clone: https://aibuildteam.ai/ask-joe/

📰 Newsletter: https://hustleandflowchart.com/subscribe

🎙️ Podcast: https://hustleandflowchart.com/

🔗 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joefier/

📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/joefier/

If you found this episode insightful, don’t miss future conversations that can shape the way you grow your business in the digital world! Hit “Subscribe” on your favorite podcast platform, leave us a review, and share this episode with a friend or colleague who needs to stay ahead of the AI-powered search revolution. Your voice keeps our community thriving—thanks for tuning in!

What if Google Chat, GBT, and TikTok already know more about your

business than your customers do, and they're the ones that are actually

gonna decide who gets found and the CE of everybody else out there?

Is it gonna be you?

So I chose to have Jason Barnard here in the podcast today

because this is super timely.

He's gonna break down how to actually take control of your digital identity.

How to build trust with AI and how to position yourself

for the future of search.

Jason's been doing this for 27 years, search optimization, so this

is extremely timely, very tactical.

Let's dive into it.

All right, Jason, we're finally hitting record because already the pre-chat, it's

always a good thing when we're, we're, we're relating to people that we know and

just getting excited for what's to come.

So thanks for hanging out with me today, Jason.

Brilliant.

Thank you Joe, and I love the pre-chat.

That's usually some of the best stuff and I just have to like cut

it off and be like, no, no, no.

Gotta hit record.

Gotta go.

So we were, we were, uh, yeah, going down memory lane a little bit.

You have 27 years of experience of working with, you know, maybe it wasn't always

called SEO at the time, but basically search and how to optimize things.

It's evolving massively.

You said you're up at 3:00 AM today with like fireworks.

Burst it in your mind of like, there's new, new stuff.

So,

a hundred percent.

And uh, I started in the year that Google was incorporated 1998.

Mm-hmm.

And I was doing white text and white background.

I was doing submitting to these different engines, different pages

for each engine, for each variant.

And I've come all the way through now to these machines are sufficiently smart to

understand who you are, what you do, who you serve, are you credible, and should

they actually recommend you as a solution.

And it's a huge evolution.

So I mean, like you've done this for, like I said, 27 years and so well over

20 years you've seen evolution happen.

I guess what.

We don't need to go like and step through all of the evolution

'cause it's changed a ton.

But I guess what are the biggest changes that maybe are happening right now and

what are to come that people aren't really realizing what's happening?

No, I love that question because actually we can basically forget

everything that happened before

Okay.

That's good.

just checking in a bed.

Mm-hmm.

And we can look at, uh, AI assistive engines, which is

chat pt, Google AI mode copilot.

These engines are designed to help us as users go from top to bottom of funnel

to find the solution to our problem.

And it might be paid for, it might be just a conversion for you and

you're not optimizing for the visit.

You are optimizing for the click, and that's the perfect click,

which is the bottom of funnel.

This is the solution that the engine has recommended.

And that's true engagement when someone's clicking and taking an action.

I mean, those are the people you want.

You don't wanna

just be visible in things that aren't relevant.

Right,

Yeah.

And I think as businesses we're, we're thinking, well, this middle

of funnel, top of funnel content we've created, I need visits.

And the answer is no, you don't.

right.

What you need is that the machine rebuilds that funnel in its brain and leads the

person to you for the perfect click.

So clicks on your Midland top of funnel content are no longer a great KPI.

It's when do people come to your website and simply buy.

So you're basically saying that now we're living in this age of with AI so

smart, and it's just getting smarter.

We'll talk about that with agents and things that if we position

ourself correctly in the.

The, the AI platforms understand that and us, and what we put out there.

It's basically gonna find us the best buyers or most

buyer intent people from, from the get go, instead of us having to nurture

everybody and take a long time.

No, a hundred percent.

And so they nurture and they recommend, and that's brilliant.

Oh, and you can actually fight these machines with exactly

what they're trying to do to us

Tell me more about that.

What do you, what do you.

while they're creating walled gardens where they take the

person entirely down the funnel.

Mm-hmm.

If they ever leak, IE, they send somebody to your website

before the end of the funnel.

Create your own walled garden.

Don't let 'em out.

Yeah.

You beat them at their own game.

so, so what would you, how would you recommend someone, what's a

basic structure of like a walled garden from your perspective?

A

Well, what they're doing is saying, okay, we've got, um, an awareness question, and

we then take that down to consideration and we take it down to decision.

If ever you get a click from the awareness moment, you have to have that awareness

page pushing people down the funnel.

So they don't go back to the engine to ask for a recommendation,

which might not be you.

Mm-hmm.

So basically, it, it, it's kind of cute in the sense that they're

creating walled gardens that are not letting people out of their ecosystem.

If they ever send somebody to you do the same thing.

Yeah.

Play their game,

but make sure you're also playing their game.

Right?

Like it's kind

of, you have to, and Google's always been that way too, right?

Like they've always kind of had these rules that don't, they,

they, they tell you or they hint to how to play by the rules.

But obviously the rules change all the time,

Exactly, and

if you can beat the rules at any point in the funnel, take the opportunity

to not let the person go back,

Mm-hmm.

and then you've beaten the machine at its own.

we mentioned SEO and that's why I think when people immediately

think of, you know, oh, you worked with Google for a long time.

You're an SEO guy, blah, blah, blah.

You know, and uh, we were already connecting on the previous,

um, a guy that I've had on the show many times, Gert Mellak,

from, uh, out in Spain.

Yeah.

And you said, he's one of the favorite people.

Your favorite people.

I'm like, that's super cool.

He's.

One of the smartest SEO marketers I've ever met, because he

builds things step by step.

Yeah.

He says, let's do this today because it's gonna have a result

tomorrow and it's gonna be a small result, but at least it's a result.

And he builds things step by step in a very intentional manner

that I immensely appreciate.

And when I talk to him, he always talks sense.

Yeah, that's true.

It's true.

It's very practical.

That's why I've had him on so many times because things change and we're

probably due for another one after, after you and, and of course Gert, if you're

listening, I'll make sure you hear this.

Uh, obviously Jason says, hi, I'd appreciate you, but

I mentioned that because.

It's been, um, you know, I've had 'em on a lot because people ask about SEO

all the time and because it changes and

so I'm curious from your perspective, Jason, like, when was SEO Like not really.

It's not enough anymore.

Like there had to be more behind just

It is never been enough.

ah,

Um, I built my company online.

It was a an ed tech tainment platform.

We competed with Disney with PBS.

We had a billion page views in 2007 from 60 million visits.

Wow.

Holy moly.

So people were sticking around on the site and

Yeah,

but only 20% came from Google.

Wow.

All of the rest came from the marketing, the branding that we were

doing across different platforms.

So I would suggest that Google is a bonus.

Chachi PT is a bonus, and that you should be focusing on marketing to

the people that you can truly help.

In the places where they already hang out.

Mm hm.

In my case, it was kids entertainment.

It was schools, it was uh, uh, cartoon websites.

It was parenting websites.

It was, um, grandparent grandparenting websites, and it was babysitting websites

that was 80% of our traffic.

So referral traffic, then more or less, right?

it was being in front of the right people, in the right places at the right

time in the, uh, when you could actually offer the solution and Google the 20% of

Google and search in general was a bonus.

So if you look at it that way, you change your perspective and you

say, well, I don't rely on Google.

Google is simply an addition.

It's an additional amplifier.

And Chachi PD is exactly the same.

Yeah.

look at it as an amplifier of what you should already be doing.

Do you see that being the same kind of as time goes on in the future as well?

I would say it's even more the case now with the clo, the closed walled

gardens is if you let them keep the user, they will keep the user.

Mm-hmm.

can get the user be before the user even gets to them, you've won the game.

True, true, true.

Do you feel like there's a, um.

Timeframe right now that we're kind of in like this window in time.

Two two years.

Why is this?

because in two years time, the AI will already have all of the information it

needs to serve the basic fundamental information funnel that we need as users.

So let's take an example of Napoleon Bonaparte.

I'm in France.

It doesn't need new information about him,

Right

so it doesn't go looking for information

about him.

So if

basically AI generated stuff of the knowledge that it already

has about Napoleon.

Yeah.

so if I write an article about Napoleon Bonaparte, I'm throwing my

time down the down, down the toilet in terms of Google and chat GPT.

And in two years time, that is gonna be true of every standard

basic topic in the world.

Meaning basically all the information has been mined from

what we know as humans or what has been published, I guess, right?

Yeah, exactly.

And so your only in is UpToDate information, football

scores, great example, and

information gaps.

Anything you can teach it that it didn't already know,

Mm,

that's what I was curious, like, yeah.

Information gaps.

Like defining, so it's, it's information that what we hold

or maybe a, a perspective of something kind of recent, I guess.

Define, yeah.

Information gaps and how that's an opportunity for us.

Well, um, data numbers and, uh, are super important.

If I say I've got 9.4 billion data points in Kali Q Pro,

and I can tell you that 30% of lawyers do not have a knowledge panel.

That's new information it didn't have, and it will be super enthusiastic.

Mm. Got it.

And then today, the three o'clock in the morning thing you were talking about,

and uh, it's difficult to explain, but I woke up and I thought, wow, okay,

we are looking at algorithmic harmony.

I like

How do we create algorithmic harmony?

We create a friction free situation for bots on our website and

within our content generally.

We create tasty content for algorithms that they want to use,

and we organize ourselves for the engines so that they can understand

how to put all the pieces together.

And it's, it's a bit geeky and I'm sorry, I'm probably expect explaining

it very badly, but it was literally last night that I thought of it.

This is new information.

This is a new perspective on something that everybody already knew.

Well expand.

I, I, I love for one, you got me with algorithmic harmony.

I had to write that down.

'cause I'm like, that's, that's interesting.

And it is so algorithmic.

Harmony in your mind.

And this is what Yeah.

Kept you awake probably, or woke you up is so you're reducing, reducing friction for.

What all of the bots, so we're

talking what Google ai, all the, you know, open ai, all the stuff that's

basically looking for information.

So you're making it easy for people, you're making it tasty

and interesting for the bots to,

you know,

like things

the algorithms,

Yeah.

For the algorithms.

so the Tasty Party's algorithms is, does the algorithm think that

your content is tasty and helpful?

And that would be what, timely stuff, right?

The information gaps that you mentioned.

does it serve the purpose of the need of the user?

Mm-hmm.

you need to make sure the content you're creating makes the algorithm algorithms

think, yes, I can serve this to my user and it will be helpful to them.

That's tasty.

And then the organizing, please go ahead.

'cause I'm interested in your, your

Yeah, I thought you would be,

no, I mean this is like 18 hours old.

Right.

I know.

And just so everyone knows, that was 3:00 AM You're in France?

I'm in San Diego, California.

It's what, past 7:00 PM your time.

So almost seven 30.

So it's like you've been up for a while and you're still buzzing.

So, but yeah.

The third, so we talked about reducing friction, uh, for the bots.

Tasty.

Make it tasty for the algorithms.

And then organizing this so the engines understand.

How to put all the pieces together, right?

Like so how it shows up when people are actually searching for that need

Yep, you've

is my take on it.

That's it.

Well, that's it.

So 18 hours old and it's all nailed now.

Thank you very much, Joe.

you're very much, well, I'm happy to introduce it.

I gotta publish this before you go and uh, no, I know you're already

writing something peachy to it.

I don't think I will, but No, this is, I think that's a great overview and.

I guess now this leads me to, because I wanna get to knowledge

panels and, and the, and how that's important and it's been around, it's

not like a new thing, but maybe we go back to that and kind of pause for a moment.

'cause I do wanna get your perspective of what's happening right now in AI and how,

uh, yeah, just search is, it's similar but changing how we position ourselves and,

Yeah.

but let's.

You know, I want to, I want to tease that for a moment.

Go to knowledge panels, because that's something that I know is very important.

I wanna underst, I want just quickly describe what they

are, they've been around, and

then how, how they're changing.

A knowledge panel is Google's understanding of who you are.

So when it shows a knowledge panel, it says, well, this is the person or the

company, and this is what I've understood about them, and I am super confident.

Hmm.

And it's a great KPI for algorithmic understanding, and that same

algorithmic understanding applies to every single engine chat, GPT,

perplexity, Microsoft copilot, Claude.

If they understand who you are, they will represent you with that

factual representation that you need for the bottom of funnel clients,

prospects that you're getting.

Yes.

So the knowledge panel right now is a great KPI, because if Google

understands you, the other AI probably understands you too.

Because they're all looking at Google as that source of

information, at least for now.

But like you said, I mean, Google's been at it since you said what, 97?

98?

I think they started in 96, but they incorporated in 98.

So I used that date because it makes me look.

Like I was there at the beginning, but they'd actually be going

two years before I started.

ah.

Okay.

I started SEO in the year Google was incorporated is better than I started

SE O2 years after Google started.

I like it's all brandy and positioning,

Yep, exactly.

It's what we call it at Kali Cube Claim frame and prove.

claim frame improve.

So I claim 27 years.

I frame it by saying same year Google was incorporated.

That makes me look impressive.

And then I prove it with links out to resources on the web that show that.

So the framing is super important because the difference between I started in

SEO the year Google was incorporated.

Brilliant.

Okay.

Google.

Jason, same date.

I started SE O2 years after Google started actually with their search engine.

Jason was behind the time.

Right, right.

So you get immediate trust and you could prove it and Yeah.

And, and.

Off.

You will.

That's great.

I mean, that's, that's a little nugget right there.

Anyone could just take and use for their own business or

Yeah, the frame, the framing is super important.

Whatever's true, whatever is true in your life is incredibly important, but how you

frame it to serve your current purpose

is fundamental to people and to algorithms.

I love that.

And so the knowledge panel thing, it's interesting because like,

so everybody's looking at, or you know, everybody meaning these, what?

There's only like four or five big AI companies really, you know, if you think

about, and that's what's interesting.

They're all racing to get all the information and

beat each

other.

Go

Tell me which four or five you're thinking of.

Oh, I mean, there's probably more, but yeah.

You have what Google, you have Microsoft, um, you have anthropic open ai.

And, uh, I mean, you have, shoot, I mean you have China and all these other,

but I'd say what Amazon is probably coming

Yeah.

No, I, I wasn't, I I didn't mean to put you on the

No, it's

Um, but we actually had a situation where right now people are saying 60 to 80%

of your traffic on your website is bots.

mm-hmm.

Right.

The dead internet theory or whatever, or,

Yeah.

And it's rubbish.

Of

oh, is it?

Oh God, we,

T tell me, tell me, tell me, because

I'm curious 'cause Yeah.

it struck me that that can't be true,

and the kind of subtlety there is, 60% of the files on your website are

being taken by bots, but only 15%.

Of the web pages that are digested are by bots

hmm.

because they're taking lots of files that people never see.

CSS, JavaScript, robots, TXT, the XML site map, so on, so forth.

So if you remove all of that, the number of web pages that are being

digested is in our case at Kali Cube, 15% because we are an incredibly

popular bot friendly website.

In your website, it might be 8%, it might be 6%.

But be careful about getting caught out in this I or, or the, the, the,

the headline grabbing clickbait titles.

Right.

So bots are crawling your website and they are doing a lot.

And TikTok is a huge consumer.

Really

You said China, it's TikTok.

it's TikTok.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I dunno what they're doing.

I don't have an insight into why.

But they crawl as much as, if not more than Google and bing

TikTok does.

I did not know that.

Wow.

So is that just to beef up their own internal search algorithm?

Right.

It's gotta be.

Maybe they're feeding Baidu.

Maybe they're, they have a plan for the future.

Maybe they're gonna take over the world.

I don't know.

But definitely there is.

They're huge consumers.

Got it.

I didn't know that.

Learned

And Amazon are a huge consumer.

Meta are a huge consumer.

I missed that.

So that might be the sixth or seventh then.

Yeah.

Meta.

That's true.

Good call.

Yeah.

we, we found a a, a bot called Petal Bot.

pedal bot.

I haven't heard of that.

No.

Now me neither.

I've got no idea what they do, but they're terribly enthusiastic.

And I mean, I'm curious of your thoughts, but like now with agents or bots,

everybody can vibe, code or do something.

I mean, the information is literally out there to anyone in the

world.

You know, the power of ai, open ai, it's literally so, um, who

knows what's getting developed?

I mean, yeah.

Right now we have these ones that are really backed by

either a bunch of investors or

nations.

And both, but then you have all these independent players who are

spinning up things that are also competing in their own thing, right?

Yeah, and pedal bot are doing something.

TikTok are doing something, but I don't really know what,

hmm.

and we'll see.

Um, but it's super, super intriguing.

And I, I, I take it as it's probably intriguing, at least to me, is like,

well, this is even more of a reason to at least show up in the way that I

want to get showed up to, or shown to my best potential customers or whoever,

subscriber viewers, whatever your KPI or your conversion point is, right.

Right, and, and a really important point to make is that Google Bot

and Bing bot have been incredibly kind to us over the years.

Have They.

really though?

They render JavaScript.

They try to figure out what your website looks like when the JavaScript triggers,

they try not to overload your server.

They try to chunk down your content.

They make enormous efforts.

TikTok, open ai, uh, meta, Amazon literally don't make any effort at all.

So they're literally like bogging down our own systems because they're trying to

Yeah.

And perplexity of being caught.

Not respecting, uh, instructions saying, don't crawl this part.

Oh wow.

So it's now turned into the Wild West and we've been spoiled by Google and

Bing, and we need to learn now that perplexity will break the rules.

TikTok will crawl you massively and they don't care about the fact

that your server is about to crash.

And that your users are not getting a great experience.

Amazon, the same method are the same.

So we we're in a situation now where you're saying, well, we

actually need to think about this.

It's not so much am I sharing my information, which you want

to do, if you want to be present in these AI assistive engines.

It's do I have the resources and can I afford it?

Is there anything we can do to prevent or optimize what we're doing so

they're not gonna take us down and ruin the experience for everybody else?

Well, if you wanna take control, go through CloudFlare.

Mm. Mm-hmm.

They have bot detectors and you can actually exclude bots.

And so if you're saying, well, I don't want TikTok,

Yep.

exclude it.

Ah, okay.

So we have a

And that's a really neat trick.

So it's basically just setting your your website up so that every

request comes through CloudFlare

Yep.

and then you can control it.

Yeah, it's cloud flare first, and then it goes to your domain, right?

And then host and whatnot.

Exactly,

and so you, you take control and that then you just need to be careful, is

that, for example, USA today is saying nobody can take our content because

we want people to come to our website.

We don't want Google open AI being perplexity, clawed stealing our content.

That's fine, but then you have to accept that they're not gonna send you traffic.

Or you're probably not gonna show up in some of these, uh, AI search.

Yeah.

It's, it's an interesting thing.

Yeah.

It's a paradigm that like, you know, even with

TikTok or, or the other bots, you're like.

Maybe it's a good thing in the future.

I don't know.

Do I

exclude 'em, do I not,

Well, it's a huge bet that we're all taking.

mm-hmm.

If you're a publisher, you're saying, well, I make my money for my content,

therefore I can't give it to the bots.

But you are cutting off a source of.

Traffic and revenue.

Right.

If you're a business B2B, B2C, you want the bots to send the people to you, and

you need to understand that they will only send them to you when the person has

made the decision at the perfect click.

Right, and you're showing up in the right way

Exactly, so you, you end up in it.

It's a debate in our own heads and it's a debate that we've

never had to have before, and I would advise every business owner.

To look at it from their own perspective.

What makes sense to me?

Well, it's a business model thing, right?

Like it's it, or maybe there's a shift in the model that we get to take now

because of the, the shifts happening

with Kali Cube, we're a B2B service.

We help entrepreneurs and their companies turn up in Google and ai.

We want these bots to build the funnel in their brains and bring people to us.

And we're actively building that.

But if I were a publisher who was publishing news, I would be struggling

with, do I want to share my content with them where they will give the

answer on their own walled garden?

Mm-hmm.

And if I do that.

Will I lose all the people who come to me and I make my money out of subscriptions

or adver uh, advertisements, but if I don't, I lose all that traffic.

I have to find another source.

Right,

That's a huge, huge question, and I don't have the answer.

right.

I mean, I don't think anybody has a perfect answer right now, but we're

definitely, I think it's good thought experiments, looking at what maybe is.

It happened in the past, even though this is kind of totally new.

I would advise anybody who is.

Implementing SEO strategies to sit down and ask themselves the fundamental

questions of where do I get my money from

Mm

and talk to somebody smart like myself, for example, about how do I avoid leaking

and maximize the actual kind of income.

I think it's very smart and yeah, we, I mean, there's so many indicators that say,

yeah, two to three years in this kind of

time span.

I mean, who knows what the world's gonna be like.

There'll be, you know, it's, it's gonna change fast.

It's rapidly, you know, you have things like agents popping up that that will be

completely change.

now, and that's a hundred percent it is.

It's all gonna be brand.

Mm-hmm.

And you mentioned agents, and I literally just wrote an article about that

is AI assistive engines.

Today is a discussion, it's a funnel that I'm having with my,

uh, AI assistive engine, be it, uh, Google AI mode, actually PG

perplexity and so on and so forth.

Yeah.

But in the near future, it's gonna be AI agents who do that funnel

multiple times for each task.

Yes.

Yeah.

they make the decision and I don't know about it.

So we need to show up in the right way to those machines too.

Not only the, I mean right now it's the people primarily making the ch the choice

And it, and in a, in a few years time, it's gonna be the machine

makes the choice multiple times.

So your audience is the machine because the audience that you're actually trying

to reach are just gonna say, well, I got the plane ticket, I got the hotel booked.

I bought the microphone from Toman, which is something I did last week,

but I had nothing to do with the actual multiple decision processes

that the agent went through.

So AI agent optimization is gonna be a

Gotcha.

This is, this is fascinating.

Jason.

What?

Okay.

Knowledge panel.

I just wanna close the loop there

because I feel like I, I do, because I feel like, I think it's you and,

and also, you know, our mutual buddy, my business partner, Scott Duffy,

you know, um, I know he is, worked with you for a, a long time now, you know,

building that up five years.

There you go.

So it obviously, and it's working for him.

Uh, where do people start for the knowledge panel?

'cause it seems like that is kind

of, I don't know, it seems like that's the core or the

most leveraged piece right now.

Obviously there's more to it,

Well, if, if you.

Look at the knowledge panel as the KPI of Understandability,

Hmm.

then you're in a really good place because whether it's a knowledge panel

or it's chat GPT or it's perplexity, these algorithms need to understand who

you are, what you do, who you serve.

Yeah.

If they don't understand that, they can't trust you,

so you are right.

That's the foundation.

The knowledge s the KPI of do the machines understand you.

And the really simple approach to that is say, okay, right.

I have an about page on my website that describes who I say I am, who

I serve, and why I am credible.

Then from that page, I need to link out to the resources that

confirm what I'm saying, and I need to get them to link back to

me confirming that it is indeed me.

And then you end up with what we call the infinite loop of self corroboration.

Where the machine comes to your website says, okay, this is

what Joe Fier says about him.

This is what Medium says about him.

This is what this article says about him.

This is what Twitter says about him.

This is what LinkedIn says about him, and it all maps out.

I understand and I'm confident I'll give him a knowledge panel.

That's the KPI, that's understandability.

So you're putting signals out there.

They're all kind of saying the same thing, so it gets a

picture of you, you are, yeah.

On the about page, like you said, you are almost like creating this web or this,

this, um, journey for these bots to go on,

right.

That all kind of are saying the same thing.

No, I love, I love that it's a journey, uh, and it's a very repetitive journey.

Mm-hmm.

the algorithm understands by repetition.

And repetition by trustworthy sources.

But you have to remember that the go-to source is always you.

Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

And if that's not the case, you've lost the game because you have no control.

Yeah.

Well, speaking of control, I'm thinking of websites now and, and you know, 'cause

you're talking about, well, about page structure of your own website, obviously.

Now you're talking about other platforms as well that your name shows up on.

What is one simple fix that someone can make on their website today that

makes it easier for, uh, Google, but also AI to better understand

Well, the, the, the, uh, sorry, you said the about page and that's exactly it.

That might be it.

So, uh, the Kali Cube process, which is the system we use, is understandability

credibility deliverability.

If it doesn't understand who you are, it can't trust you.

If it doesn't trust you, it will never deliver you.

Mm-hmm.

So you need to start with understandability.

And understandability.

Is that about page on your website that says, this is who I am, this is who I

serve, and this is why I am credible.

Hmm,

So that's the first place to start.

that's it.

No, I love it.

Yeah, and there's more to it, but yeah.

That's great.

Thank you, Jason.

That's

But it, it, it, it's actually really simple and it, it's one of those moments

in life where you say, well, actually I can explain it to the baker downstairs.

And she understands it in five minutes, create the single source

of source of truth, which is you

Yeah.

make sure that every single source about you around the web corroborates

what you're saying, link out to it.

The machine goes backwards and forwards, and it keeps seeing, seeing the same

message, and you've won the game.

I like it.

I mean, logically it's all there, but like you said, it's a process.

I mean, Gert would, that's why, you know, Gert Mellak, when he talks

about things, you know, he's got his process and is, it's, um, and I know

you, so it's, I'm, I'm really excited.

'cause I know personally I'm going to start the journey with Kali

Cube and with you and your team.

You know, Scott and my team are also, we're all working together, so it's

Yeah, and I think the important thing is, is what you've focused on.

You keep talking about the knowledge panel and you know,

I've been doing this so long.

I'm a bit or knowledge panel bit though, but it is the foundation of everything.

If the machine doesn't understand who you are, you have no hope.

You're not even in the game.

Yeah.

So if you don't have the knowledge panel on Google, you're not gonna

be playing the game in Google, in Bing, in Claude, in chat, GPT.

And that's your foundation.

You need to start there.

And it starts with the entity home, which is the about page on your

website and the corroboration around the web with links that make sure

that the machine goes through that infinite loop of self corroboration.

And when I say it like that, it sounds very simple.

Managing it is quite difficult.

Yeah.

Because as human beings, we're a bit messy.

But that's where you start and you can DIY it

That's great.

So, uh, if they don't wanna DDIY it or if they wanna learn more, where

do they go and find you, Jason.

well, if you want to DIY it, you go here, Kali cube.com/guides.

And if you don't, um, reach out to me.

I'd be happy to help.

Awesome.

Yeah, we'll put everything in the show notes, link it up and all that.

Make it easy.

So last question, Jason.

I'm always curious of, and we've kind of talked about it, but like the next

handful of years, like what's the, what's the thing you are most excited about?

I mean, you've been excited, you've been

on fire all day long today.

I know.

Um, I'm curious, like with you, I mean, what you said, you

said there's two years of this.

Like, does that mean that you're out of a job, Jason in two years or is like.

Now.

Ah, I love the question.

There are, there are a few things that are gonna remain in place is my life is gonna

change, and the algorithms know that, but if they don't recognize me before that

two year window, they won't come looking.

Yep.

have to make myself, you have to make yourself sufficiently important

to the machines that they come looking three years from now.

Yeah, that's the key focus, and anybody who's missed that boat

is gonna be really struggling.

So you need to, in the next two years, make sure that you become sufficiently

important within your niche for the machines to proactively come

looking for information about you.

That's it.

Alright.

Y'all,

you know the, you know the procedure.

Go do it.

Go do some stuff.

Definitely go follow Jason.

What he is doing, I mean, this is, it's very timely stuff.

That's why we we're talking now and um, yeah, I, next few

years is gonna be interesting.

Next, I mean, who, who knows what the future's

like, but

isn't it?

I'm just happy we're here, we're alive and we're experiencing it 'cause.

Absolutely.

knows, man.

All right, Jason, I appreciate you.

Was this a good like cap to the day?

I know it started very early for you, but

Yeah, it, it, it, it's absolutely the perfect end to a day where I started

the day just going, oh, wow, this is all brilliant and wonderful and delightful,

and I'm thinking it all through.

But the foundation is always, does the machine understand who you are, what

you offer, and to whom does it believe you to be credible as a solution to the

subset of its users who your audience.

And does it have the content to be able to deliver you to those people

for whom you have the perfect solution.

That's it.

Yeah.

Perfect.

All right, Jason, go get some rest.

You've been, you've been at it all day long.

Thanks for hanging out late with me.

So till next time, we'll do it

again soon.

Bye.