Episode Summary: In this episode of CarbonSessions, hosts Leekei, Jenn, Kristina and Olabanji dive into the complex issue of sustainability efforts and greenwashing communication.

They begin by defining greenwashing as misleading marketing that falsely presents products or services as environmentally friendly. The conversation then delves into why greenwashing is harmful, noting its potential to erode consumer trust, undermine real environmental efforts, and create a false sense of progress in combating climate change.

The hosts discuss various examples of greenwashing, such as deceptive product packaging and the illusion of carbon offsetting in air travel. They also touch on the phenomenon of 'green hushing,' where companies making actual positive environmental changes refrain from publicizing them due to fear of being labeled as greenwashers. 

The episode highlights the importance of consumer education, the need for transparency, and the value of community-driven sustainability.

In conclusion, the episode stresses the urgency for authenticity in sustainability efforts, summarized in the powerful message: "Don't fake it, just make it."

For more information on the project and to order your copy of the Carbon Almanac (one of Amazon best-selling books of the year!), visit thecarbonalmanac.org

Want to join in the conversation?

Visit thecarbonalmanac.org/podcasts and send us a voice message on this episode or any other climate-related ideas and perspectives.

Don’t Take Our Word For It, Look It Up!

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Featuring Carbon Almanac Contributors Leekei Tang, Jenn Swanson, Kristina Horning and Olabanji Stephen.

Leekei is a fashion business founder, a business coach, an international development expert and podcaster from Paris, France. 

From Langley in British Columbia, Canada, Jenn is a Minister, Coach, Writer and community Connector, helping people help themselves. 

Kristina has a background in architecture and engineering. Currently in Prague (that it is where she is originally from) and her base is US

Olabanji is from Lagos Nigeria, he’s a Creative Director and visual designer that helps brands gain clarity, deliver meaningful experiences and build tribes through Design & Strategy. He founded Jorney - a community designed to help people stay productive, accountable, and do their best work.

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The CarbonSessions Podcast is produced and edited by Leekei Tang, Steve Heatherington and Rob Slater.

Hi, I'm Christina.

2

I'm from Prague.

3

Hi, I'm Jen, and I'm from Canada.

4

Hi, I'm Oladunji, and I'm from Nigeria.

5

Hello, I'm Liki, and I live in Paris.

6

Hi, I'm Brian, and I'm from New York.

7

Welcome to Carbon Sessions, a podcast with

Carbon Conversations for every day, with

8

everyone, from everywhere in the world.

9

In our conversations, we share ideas.

10

Perspectives, questions, and things we

can actually do to make a difference.

11

So don't be shy and join our carbon

sessions because it's not too late.

12

Hi, it's Fleeky.

13

Hi, this is Christina.

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Hi, this is Jen.

15

Hi, this is Olabanji and today we

are talking about greenwashing.

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And we've talked about greenwashing

on this podcast in the past,

17

but today we're specifically.

18

Looking into what makes greenwashing

bad, what makes greenwashing terrible.

19

Um, and so we should perhaps start with a

refresher and talk about what greenwashing

20

is and then we'll move forward.

21

So, um, who wants to go first?

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What, what's greenwashing?

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I think it's, I think it's, um, Calling

something green or, um, good for the

24

environment or, um, you know, fresh

or using some kinds of words that

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make it seem like it's good for the

environment, but in fact are just words.

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Yeah, I think it's basically a

marketing tactic to mislead the

27

customers to believe that it's good

for certain cause, for the environment,

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for the water or for whatever.

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It's just a pure marketing tactic, right?

30

Yeah.

31

And, so it's like business, businesses

and companies are looking for how

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to appeal to their audiences and.

33

These days, one of the cool things

to do or to be or to associate with

34

or to identify with is to be, uh,

sustainability, to be interested

35

in sustainability, because why not?

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And so companies would rather, but, but

why is it bad to, to do greenwashing?

37

That sounds like a

stupid question, but why?

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Yeah.

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I think for me, it'll be that.

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Why fake something when you

can make it real, right?

41

So what do you stand to gain by

saying that this is what you do

42

to help the planet when you do

not have an intention to do it?

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It's like, well, it's not really fake

it till you make it, but why have,

44

why have, um, hypothetical or imagined

impact when you can have a real one?

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And one of the bad things, about that

is that when you say that this is

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what you're doing, we can take your

word for it, but taking your word

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for it is that we trust you to do it.

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We trust that you are implementing your

strategies, what your sustainability

49

goals are, and all that plenty of

stuff that you're talking about.

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Um, and so we're, we're, we believe

that your impact is reducing

51

the impact of climate change.

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We believe that the work that you're

doing is reducing the impact of

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climate change when in fact it is not.

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So We should probably be doing more work

will be better off knowing that you're

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not doing anything and so we know where

to focus our efforts on and we know

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whether we should continue to convince

you or to, you know, talk to you about

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it or to, you know, do whatever it is

to get you on the good side of, you

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know, doing real work rather than, um,

rather than thinking that you're already

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doing it when you clearly are not.

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So, yeah, but I also think

that it brings, it's Yeah.

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It's a breach of trust in the, you

know, in the effort and it will

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undermine the action of those who

are really doing it, who are really

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taking care of the environment, are

really fighting for special codes.

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Because if you're doing something , you

pretend that you're doing something,

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but you're not actually doing, and

when your customers or your audience

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realize that you're not really doing it.

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It, um, it undermines the effort of

the others that are really doing it.

68

Like, I think I should give an

example, but, um, I don't know,

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there are millions of examples.

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Um, it's so hard when you need

to look for example, but, um, for

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example, when, um, I have a quick one.

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Yeah, please.

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Thank you.

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Um, in the grocery store, sometimes

looking at shampoo or conditioner,

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stuff like that, this is a little one.

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Um, some of them have switched

over to green bottles or bottles

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that have plants pictured on them.

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But you read the ingredients and

they're still full of parabens and

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phthalates and whatever bad stuff.

80

Yeah.

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Um, so, you know, it looks like

an attractive, natural looking

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bottle, um, but it actually isn't.

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Um, you know, good, good for the

earth or they have names on them,

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like, you know, earth, whatever.

85

Um, but it's not real when you read,

when you dig into it a little bit more.

86

Yeah.

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So , normally you should be, there

are visual cues that , are supposed

88

to help you find the right product.

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But if some brands using these

cues that are not really represent

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what they're supposed to represent.

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That's, um, those who are really doing

it, uh, the efforts are undermined.

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Undermined.

93

Yeah.

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I think one of the really crazy things

about greenwashing as well is that

95

it can create a sense of complacency.

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So if I am interested in buying

only things like sustainable

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products, I would believe that I'm

doing something for the planet.

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So...

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Like the shampoo example, if I go ahead

and buy shampoo that has, you know, it's

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like, well, eco friendly and I basically

go shop for everything that's eco

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friendly, get home the sense of pride that

at least I'm trying, making an effort,

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especially if I'm not entirely the going

all out, you know, stopping climate change

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kind of person, it's just the little

efforts that I'm making and I feel like,

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well, that's something that I'm doing.

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Meanwhile, The products that I'm buying

are basically just eco friendly as a

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marketing tactic and not the real thing.

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And so the choice is harder, right?

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It distracts me from seeing actual

eco friendly products sometimes.

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And so.

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You know, that, that's another

thing as well, I think, is bad.

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And I think it's used in, in a lot of

different industries, you know, we're

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talking about product we can buy off the

shelf in the supermarkets, uh, but it's

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also in almost every industry sector,

like, okay, airplanes, that's, that's,

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um, that's a very big one because, um, I

don't know if you have bought an airline

115

ticket recently, up until last year,

you can offset your trip and, you know,

116

when you offset your flight, you have

this illusion of, okay, so therefore all

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my carbon emission will be compensated.

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And um, yeah, and um, I think this

is greenwashing and actually in

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France, some companies in France and

in Europe, um, there are some big

120

airlines that have been sued because

they have been using this tactic.

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and so The other problem I think of

greenwashing is that it maintains them,

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you know, this um, this sense of it upset.

123

Well, actually, the thing that's

really upset, it's your own

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guilt of doing the thing that

is not good for the environment.

125

Yeah, yeah.

126

It's, um, psychological

dishonesty, isn't it?

127

Yes.

128

. Yeah.

129

Yeah.

130

It's breaking trust.

131

Yes.

132

Yeah.

133

Breaking trust in the companies.

134

But now I think one thing people should

know about that you can look up on, uh,

135

internet and they have greenwashing 11

recent standout examples and, uh, also

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they have other, uh, each year I think

they specifically focus on certain

137

big companies that do the greenwashing

Say something that it's not true.

138

And also one more thing.

139

I was thinking about the colors

and shapes that being organic or

140

Eco friendly there are certain

labels and Here's the same labels.

141

It just looks like that.

142

So from the distance you kind

of see the same shape Yeah.

143

So, buyer be aware.

144

It's, it's, um, it's interesting.

145

One, one other thing, and there's a

thing called green hushing as well.

146

What is green hushing?

147

Um, I don't know if you've

heard about green hushing.

148

No, tell me.

149

No.

150

What is green hushing?

151

So, green hushing.

152

What is that?

153

Yeah.

154

So, green hushing is when the

companies that are actually doing

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work are not talking about it.

156

Because the fear.

157

It might be perceived as greenwashing.

158

And so, yeah, Green Ocean

is just a simple phenomenon.

159

Companies that, that have legitimate

positive climate impact and green

160

initiatives are holding back to speak up

about them because they are worried that

161

their initiatives or their actions will

be labeled as greenwashing, especially

162

when they are sort of ambitious.

163

And so that's, that's like Greenhawshin.

164

I haven't heard that before.

165

Is, is that for companies that like, are

they worried about the politics of it?

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Or about turning off people who aren't,

are against environmental causes?

167

Or what would the reason for that be?

168

Yeah, so I think the reason would be, uh,

yeah, so they are, they are afraid of um,

169

financial losses, damage of reputation,

Um, sometimes legal action and because

170

the moment you see that these are the

initiatives that you're carrying out,

171

um, even, even though they are true, you

start to attract certain kinds of like

172

agencies and eyes and maybe government

to, um, try to monitor and make sure

173

that you're doing what you say you do.

174

And so even though they are

having real impact, their heads

175

down to talk about it because.

176

Now, that's funny because they care

more about the impact than they

177

care about the communication of it.

178

Yeah, but, I don't know, is the

communication of it very important?

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Because it's, for me, you know, as

a company, as a business, you have

180

to take care of the environment.

181

And for me, it's something...

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Normal, you know, it's like me,

I'm trying to be a good person,

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but I'm not always trying.

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I'm not always telling people, Oh,

I'm trying to be a good person,

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you know, and I have values.

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So I don't know the green hushing thing.

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I understand it somehow, but I don't,

I don't really understand why it is a

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problem to, to, , I don't understand why

it's, it's bad to green hushing is bad.

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Um, I don't know as well.

190

I learned about it recently.

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I was like, Oh wow, there's something,

there's something called green ocean.

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Um, and, and green ocean, I think

the simple definition of green

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ocean is the fear of green washing.

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And that's, that'll probably be the,

the simple way to think about it.

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So I don't want to.

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Oh Jennifer.

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So I mean, is there a problem you're

seeing as you have some of these

198

conversations with mutual aid?

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Oh Sure.

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Yeah, center.

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This is good.

202

I was involved with M.

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O.

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Jessica Marie.

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So did I meet.

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Yeah, we did.

207

But off my head, I think the other

thing about greenwashing now, so back to

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greenwashing, would be that it hinders

real progress towards sustainability.

209

I think that's another thing.

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Just my thoughts, I think it hinders the

progress towards sustainability because

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it's assumed impacts, not real impacts.

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And assumed impacts is an enemy of

real impacts because we feel like

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we're making an impact and we're not.

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And so we still get...

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We still get the, uh, hazards, well,

not hazards, but we still get the

216

somewhat like disasters, the negative

events and occurrences that come from

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climate change, when we think that

we're doing something towards it,

218

when in fact the people that say they

are doing something are really not.

219

Yeah.

220

So for example, if a huge company like

say huge oil company starts to talk about

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their climate, like the climate impact

or sustainability goals that they have

222

for like five years, it would be like

a breath of fresh air to know that a

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company with that much, um, emission , Is

making some effort to collapse it to

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reduce it significantly and so that'll

come like a that'll come like a relief

225

only if it's true, but if it's not

true, then We're back to square one.

226

Honestly, do you believe that

an oil company can have real,

227

um, sustainable initiatives?

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To be honest, I don't know.

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It's hard, but I don't know.

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I heard.

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And so there's, there's total, total

is a, is an oil company and they are

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here in Nigeria and I was at an event

and they were talking about their

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sustainability goals and all the stuff

that they are working on, like total

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clean energy using other forms of

gases and electricity and some of all

235

that stuff and it sounded okay, just

listening to it, but I, the truth is,

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I don't know how possible it will be.

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, for an oil company, in particular,

to, Well, I'm quite skeptical,

238

really, um, for two main reasons.

239

The first reason is that if you, if

you know the kind of, um, you know,

240

the type of economic model of these big

companies, the decision they make, they

241

make today, , will be like an investment

decision for the next 30 or 50 years.

242

So, It's, um, they cannot just like,

okay, well, we'll change everything and

243

we'll, we'll become sustainable from,

because it has such a long, um, investment

244

financial impact for, for the business.

245

That's the first thing.

246

And the second thing is

that, Hey, it's a business.

247

They've been making

lots and lots of money.

248

Out of something that is exploitative,

that is, um, destructive,

249

very bad for the environment.

250

Do you really think that they

will stop, like, milking the cow?

251

So, so that's, you know, for

those two reasons, I'm really,

252

really, really skeptical.

253

However, however, however, um,

the interesting thing about it

254

is that, yes, it's a business.

255

And.

256

It sounds like, from what I've heard,

that some of these companies, um, are

257

jumping on the solar energy bandwagon

because they see the profit in that

258

over the profit in oil in the future.

259

And so, whatever their motives

are, , it is possible, and it's

260

happening, that some of these companies

are turning a lot of their focus

261

toward building, uh, wind turbines.

262

And producing electricity.

263

Um, you know, and, and are heading in

that direction and, and it might not be

264

an altruistic, you know, uh, reason, but

it might be because of self preservation

265

and it might be, uh, jobs and it might

be, it will definitely is money, right?

266

So Thank you.

267

Um, you know, unlike maybe the tobacco

industry that just doubled down and

268

stayed put and continued to produce and

continues to produce stuff that's, you

269

know, everybody knows it's killing people.

270

Um, perhaps they've decided, well, maybe

we should see what else is out there.

271

Yeah.

272

And hitch our wagon to that

star and move in that direction

273

because it's going there anyway.

274

Right?

275

It's going there anyway.

276

Yes, but you know, for, I think we, that,

you know, for the, these energy companies,

277

we need, we really need to look into

details and see what's the proportion of,

278

of, um, of how the, the, the energy they

produce from the solar or wind, , sources.

279

I strongly believe that they have

invested so much in getting the, you

280

know, the, the extraction that they

will stop extracting after they've,

281

they've extracted the last bit, the last.

282

The last drop of oil from everywhere

that we have on this planet.

283

Yeah, and that's just human psychology.

284

That's just that's just character

basically Because because why not right?

285

Why not?

286

Why would I not get the highest

return on my investment?

287

um If you've you've got to show me a

better way or more If if they don't do

288

it, it will not it's hard to believe so if

they don't do it It'll be hard to believe

289

that The reason that they stopped doing

it is because they care about the planet.

290

It will be, it will more likely

happen because they found a

291

better, more profitable way.

292

And they were, they found a

way to either manage the loss

293

or not come to a loss at all.

294

Or even make a bigger profits,

that'll be, that is, that is a more

295

probable case than Hey, stop this.

296

It's hurting the planet.

297

Well, what do you mean?

298

Stop this.

299

I've, I've got like, what billions

of dollars in investments.

300

Anytime you say stop this, that's

going to sound like gibberish.

301

So, um, and that's, that's the innovation

part of sustainability, I guess.

302

The fact that, that some, some of

some people like as humans have

303

to think and not just present, and

this is the hard part, but not just

304

present and the companies themselves

have to do like research and get

305

deep into this and not just take it

from like a ideological standpoint,

306

but from a forward technological,

innovative and profitable standpoint.

307

Which is part of what, uh, Johannes was

saying on our last podcast about how he's

308

been able to like, you know, it's tree

planting quite all right, but like set

309

it up in a way that is investment worthy.

310

And can scale.

311

And so yeah, that's, that's a thing.

312

Yeah.

313

It's, it seems like there are now for the

cars before we did not have much choice.

314

We just had to buy gas.

315

Yeah.

316

That was it.

317

Yeah.

318

But nowadays it's shifting

into, okay, now I have a choice.

319

Yeah.

320

I can make choice.

321

Yeah.

322

And when in Czech Republic, I

have electricity from a company.

323

And when I was signing up, they gave

me a choice, do you want to buy regular

324

electricity or do you want to buy

electricity just from renewable, sources?

325

So I think also not only big companies,

but also the, that we are responsible what

326

we are buying and what we're choosing.

327

If we have a choice, yeah,

so yeah, there's like a

328

controversial, uh, decree law.

329

I don't know what it is that came down

decision that came down in Canada this

330

past week about, um, uh, discounting

heat pumps for only some people

331

in the country in Atlantic Canada.

332

And, uh, and everyone else

is like, but what about us?

333

So there's a lot going on about that

right now, but it's interesting because,

334

um, there's a lot of oil heating, um,

like, like oil has to be delivered to

335

oil burning heaters in Atlantic Canada.

336

It's very, very cold.

337

Um, in, uh, in the Eastern part of

the country, the, um, Um, maritimes

338

and, um, and so the idea is to get

people off of coal and oil burning,

339

uh, systems and to provide heat pumps.

340

Oh, nice.

341

Uh, but it's, it's cold all over the place

and people are saying, why just there?

342

Why not everywhere?

343

So there's a big hoopla going

on right now about that.

344

That makes sense.

345

But at least it's, it's in,

you know, incentivizing people

346

to switch from some of these.

347

Yeah, but as you rightly pointed

out, Christina, you say that we

348

have the choice, um, but there's

so much greenwashing out there.

349

So how do we as citizen, as buyer,

you know, make the right choice

350

because there's so much greenwashing.

351

how do we know that it's the right choice?

352

I think it's important

to look into the sources.

353

I think it's the same as with the food.

354

that we do have a choice

and we do have information.

355

It's not going to be ready in the store

or it's not going to be on the news, but

356

it is going to be on the internet and

we can find names and addresses and all

357

these big companies, they have to report

to the government because of the taxes.

358

So I think it just takes a little bit

of digging, but There has to be reports,

359

even we have people travel all over

the world and just take time to check

360

out maybe one, uh, uh, cocoa growth

or a company where they make t shirts

361

in India or, uh, make, uh, dyes or,

uh, or when they say, yeah, we have

362

electricity from renewable There is a,

they have to report all these things.

363

So I think just take time a little bit and

maybe when you travel and check it out.

364

I also, I also think that we have

a choice to a certain extent,

365

depends on your economic status.

366

It's.

367

You know, it's, it's a lot cheaper to buy

a 5 bottle of shampoo than a 12 bottle of

368

shampoo or a 10 t shirt than a 90 t shirt.

369

And so, um, it's, we have a

choice to an extent, um, and I

370

think we always have a choice.

371

But sometimes the education has

to come first and and learning

372

about it before you can say well,

okay I need one shirt this year.

373

I don't need five So I'll spend more

on one and make it last then buy

374

You know the shirt at the local big

box store or the online place um You

375

know, I think, I think education has

to go hand in hand with that too.

376

Yeah, absolutely.

377

I think that, you know, education will

enable us citizen buyers to scratch

378

beyond the surface because there's

also, that's something I found out, I

379

realized that there's also greenwashing

from governments, politicians,

380

a lot actually of greenwashing.

381

And so for knowing for whom

to vote is very important.

382

And so it's requires us to.

383

be able to understand, and

it comes from education.

384

Yeah, that's true.

385

Yeah, and it's so much more fun to buy

things with a story, and when you know

386

who made it, it's, it's a pleasure.

387

It is, but it's not always possible,

because, um, yeah, I mean, um, I, living

388

here where I live now, it's easy, because

I have, there's , lots of shops, but

389

If you live in the suburb and you don't

have so much time and you have only,

390

you know, limited choices of where

you can shop, that's real difficult.

391

Maybe people from the neighborhood

could be together in suburbs and

392

create little gardens and uh, little

getting together and uh, fermenting

393

veggies and sewing and knitting.

394

We can start making community.

395

We don't have to go just

to huge supermarkets.

396

We can support each other.

397

Yeah, and I think it's worth mentioning to

organizations that might be greenwashing

398

currently or are looking to engage

intentionally or unintentionally, that

399

you risk your reputation, that's one,

and it's also could come with regulatory

400

and litigation risks so you can get sued.

401

Um, but besides that, you lose trust,

you might, you risk losing trust, the

402

trust that your customers have in you,

um, that's probably the biggest asset

403

that your business will ever have.

404

So it's not on the books, but

it's what makes the books exist.

405

So it'll be wise to sort of watch

that and not greenwash, right?

406

So rather than fake it.

407

You should probably just make it at once.

408

That's our hashtag quote for the day.

409

Yeah, don't fake it, just make it.

410

Excellent.

411

Yeah, make it, because there's

a legal framework to combat

412

greenwashing, and it's, it's becoming

tough in the EU, so be careful.

413

Yeah.

414

Yeah.

415

Yeah.

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There you go, people.

417

Just don't fake it.

418

Just make it.

419

Yeah.

420

Yeah.

421

Yeah.

422

Yeah.

423

And that's probably a good

place to end this episode.

424

Yeah.

425

Um, yeah.

426

So, with that being said,

we'll see you next time.

427

Thanks everyone.

428

Yeah.

429

Get creative.

430

Thank you.

431

Thanks everyone.

432

Bye.

433

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