In this week's episode of the podcast, Tazmin chats with Leyla about confidence, including what it means, how common it is, how to be more confident and more.

About Leyla:

Leyla Okhai is the founder and Director of Diverse Minds UK Ltd. Diverse Minds aims to create a positively productive workplace for all through training, coaching and consultancy. The focus is placed on wellbeing, mental health and by understanding differences. Leyla has over 18 years’ experience in developing and implementing diversity, inclusion and equality practices, with senior leadership teams. She is also the host of the award-winning Diverse Minds Podcast a weekly show about mental health and inclusion. She is a TEDx Speaker, her talk on the connection between race, culture and mental health As a trained coach, mentor, speaker and mediator, Leyla’s coaching practice centres on how staff can navigate boundaries and reach their full potential whilst maintaining their wellbeing. Leyla has also spoken regularly on mental health and wellbeing in the workplace and delivered training programmes and workshops these issues in higher education and the private sector.

Where to find Leyla:

Leyla's Website

@diversemindsuk on Twitter

@diversemindspodcast on Instagram

Leyla's Facebook page

Leyla's Facebook group

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Hello, everyone, and thank you for joining us for another episode of the SEO Mindset Podcast. This is Tazmin and today we are joined by Leyla Okhai to talk about a huge topic, one of confidence. Now, I first heard Leyla speak at the Women in Tech Festival of all, where she spoke so eloquently and passionately about this topic. And I remember messaging her straight away. I didn't even leave my seat. I messaged her straight away and said, please come and be a guest on our podcast. I'm really happy it's finally happening. Now, Leyla, I only realised afterwards, she has got so many strings to her. Is that the right word? Strings to her boat? Anyway, you get the gist. There's a lot about her and I'm going to have to start reading rather than just a gushing at the moment. So she is the founder and director of Diverse Minds UK Limited, which aims to create a positively productive workplace for all through training, coaching and consultancy. And the focus is something that I'm really passionate about as well, well being, mental health, and by understanding our differences, which is fantastic. She's a trained coach, mentor, speaker and mediator, and she has over 18 years of experience in this area. She delivers training programmes and workshops on these issues in higher education and also in the private sector. She also this is a long list, Leyla. She's also host of an award winning podcast called Diverse Minds Podcast, which is a weekly show about mental health and inclusion. And on top of all of that, she is a TEDx speaker, her talk being about the connection between race, culture and mental health. So, before we get into this week's episode, I'm trying to speak as quickly as possible because I want us to have as much time as possible. A quick reminder to our listeners on how they can support the podcast. If you've been enjoying listening to Sarah and myself and you're finding the content useful and would like to support us, then head over to our Buy Me A Coffee page. The link will be in the show notes and there you can give us a one off donation to support the work that we do. And again, if you want more content, then we also have a newsletter that you can sign up to. Again, the link is in the show notes. So, Leyla, I try to talk as quickly as possible. Welcome.

Thank you so much for having me, Desmond.

I was really excited. Now, this topic, confidence, I mean, it's huge. We're not going to be able to cover it in 30 minutes, but I'm keen to tackle as much of it as we can, because when we talk about our hurdles and our barriers, often we use this umbrella term of confidence. Don't have the confidence to do it. What does the word confidence mean to you? And if you're able to just talk a little bit about the link between confidence and mental health?

Yeah, really great question, Desmond. Thank you. I think confidence in its essence, for me, which was what I mentioned at the SEO conference, is sort of faith belief that somehow things will work out. So that's not to say things will be perfect. That's not to say that these phrases smash it, nail it. Yeah, take it in one. It doesn't mean that it will be like that. But confidence is about, I'm going to give it a go. Maybe it's not going to be completely amazing, maybe it will work out. Maybe it will work out in a way that I didn't expect and I will roll with it and I will be able to come out of it and have learned something and be enriched and be proud of myself, even if it wasn't, quote, unquote perfect. And then I think the link with confidence in mental health is, for me, is who in society is allowed to be confident? So if I can be really cliched, you're a tall, athletic white man, so the world's your oyster. This is your system, this is your culture in Britain. You're going to thrive. You'll remember I put that Mindy Carling quote up that says, you're so confident, Mindy, but essentially, people are saying, well, why are you confident? You're a short, brown woman who's not stick thin and how have you been able to have access to these spaces? So I think the way in which it manifests on our mental well being and mental health is that some people get these head starts in life because a system is for them and it suits them, so they are confident. Now, we don't know if they're confident or not, but it's almost like, yeah, of course they're going to be confident, whereas there are many of us who don't fit or we're not as close to systemic power. And so our mental health is there's got to be a lot of resilience there. We will face more hurdles because the system isn't designed for us. So, of course, when we keep facing setbacks, it's a systemic thing, it's not to do with us as a person, but it can feel that way. So that's going to erode our confidence and have a negative impact on our mental well being.

I guess it's about trusting yourself, that you can go for it and trust yourself in whether it works out for you or it doesn't. So is it that having a lack of confidence erodes your mental health, or is it by having a strong mental health, you have confidence?

That's a really interesting question. Yeah, I think it can work. It can work both ways. And I think the way I would sort of ask listeners and for you had to have a think about it as well. If you think about a time when you were most confident, it doesn't matter what you were doing, whether it was in the professional sphere, personal sphere, whatever it was, maybe you had a really good parenting day if you're not a parent, maybe you organised a brilliant party if you're thinking about personal sphere. And when we feel really confident, like, yes, oh, I've managed these setbacks, I'm getting things together. Okay, my child had a tantrum in the supermarket, but I dealt with it. We feel quite solid and positive in ourselves, even if it didn't go to plan. And then that builds, doesn't it, so that we can feel we can it's almost like the stepping stones when we do that, we can keep going up. And then I think if we keep having setbacks and then we start to question ourselves and we start to think, oh, can I really do this? And it takes a lot more energy. So I think it can go both ways. And I think in different stages of our life, it will be slightly different. I think, for example, the lockdowns had a really big impact on people's confidence. But then some people who felt like, oh, I don't belong, or I really hate socialising in this way, actually their confidence went up because Zoom gave them, or any other platform gave them confidence to do the things that perhaps they wouldn't have been able to do.

Yeah, it's really interesting. I think recently I've been thinking a lot more about what is it? Is it the positive mental health? If you deal with that, will you automatically find yourself saying yes to opportunities that you wouldn't have done before, for example, or is it the other way around? But sometimes I get into all of these tangents and you and I met at the SEO Women in Tech Festival. The SEO industry is full of really ambitious, hardworking individuals. A lot of emphasis is placed on growth. How common is it for these individuals to have the issue of lack of confidence?

I think that's such a great question. And I was quite new to the SEO world, so that conference was very illuminating and eye opening for me. Not in terms of individuals working really hard and pushing themselves, but just in terms of how diverse, in terms of SEO backgrounds, what the work that people were doing and the types of individuals that were there, and the global approaches. And I think in any industry that's very fast paced and that's based on growth. And of course, with SEO, you're looking at growth, so that can lead to higher profits in most cases. There is a difference, isn't there, between confidence and arrogance as well. So arrogance isn't going to go in there and tell them this and do this and do that. It doesn't necessarily mean that people have the knowledge or that people really believe in it. It can be swagger, it can be a front, it can be a mask. So I think it depends on the individual. I think it also depends on the kind of culture the country culture that people are from, the individual culture that people have grown up in and how they've created and the culture they live in, in that moment, in that day, in that particular period. So, again, we know from many global majority cultures, you wait for an elder to say, well done, you don't put yourself forward. So that will resonate, I think, with many, and of course, when I say global majority, that's parts of the world where it's not led by white dominant norms, so it's a huge swathes and huge culture. So I am generalising, I think, with white global and white sorry, white dominant norms, and I think with white dominant cultures, what you're looking at is, particularly in North America, is you're looking at people pushing themselves forward. And that seemed to be confidence, that seemed to be leadership skills. So often we feel like we have to mould into this to come across as confident, and that people that are quiet and reflective or do things in a different way or like collaboration are not seen as confident. So I think it's a mixture of the culture, the perception, and of course, we can all have a crisis, if you like, of confidence or have times where, as I mentioned, our confidence will go down. That doesn't mean it's not there and we can't find it. And I think it's also interesting how we might perceive ourselves in terms of confidence and how other people might perceive us.

Yeah. And it is that some people use it as a mask, those power poses and fist pumping and all of that, and some people rely on it to boost that energy. I think sometimes we also generalise between the genders and being somebody who grew up very shy. Most people don't believe that I was ever shy, but I definitely was and I think I probably still am. But with age and experience, you find a way through, don't you? But when I was talking to people at Brighton recently, lots of the young men were saying, we struggle, we struggle with confidence. So it's not just not just the women. Again, going back to the SEO industry, there seems to be a big bias on skills based learning as opposed to personal development. What are your thoughts on that?

Yeah, so, again, that's very interesting for me and I can see that having been to the conference, having seen some of the ways in which I'm guessing the variety of organisations that were represented there might push their staff to, what's your skill? What's your data analytics? What's this? And just get the job done. And the personal development is in an interesting one too, because, of course, it has to be done in an accessible format. So my understanding is there are potentially a greater number than many other industries of individuals who identify as neurodivergent. So how we can support them with how we can create an environment that looks at that in context as well as looking at personal developments, I think that's one thing to really think about. And of course, if we know that neurodivergent conditions are on a spectrum and again, how people will view their expertise and then they could have a very high confidence with their expertise and think, but I don't understand the social cues and not feel confident there because it's not been explained explicitly, for example. And that's a very simplistic way of explaining it, but I suppose it's what do you think to educate me? Tazmin the kind of personal development skills do you think are still needed in the area of SEO? So I guess it's easier to quantify as well. If we look at skills training, if I send my staff on this, they'll understand this data matrix, then they can increase here and then we can get more profit for our clients. Whereas I suppose with personal development skills, sometimes they're only introduced when things go wrong. Oh, we've got a tribunal, or we keep having lots of grievances or we have lots of churn, but by that point it's quite far down the line and it's really impacting the bottom line. And then someone sits up and goes, oh, we best do something about this, as opposed to as part of our onboarding process. This is the plan. We have the skills and the personal development and we have trainers and a culture where skills are embedded into the personal development and vice versa.

And I think even personal development and also mental health awareness and mental health facilitation. So it feels as if mental health is talked about when things are going wrong, rather than, you know, what, if we put this in place, be more proactive rather than reactive, then we won't have somebody who is close to breaking. We just create an environment where people can be open, people can be honest, people can be themselves, people are taught this is a way of enhancing your mental health and these are things that will improve your mental health rather than associating it with things have gone wrong.

I think, yeah, there are two things with that. I think one of the things I'm really noticing, and I don't know what your sense is, is that many companies are saying, well, Leyla, we're kind of done with the training now. We've given everyone an app and I don't create apps, but we've given everyone an app and they're fine now. But we know also there's been research that's shown that, yes, certain people might dip into the mental health and well being apps, but actually they want a line manager they can talk to, whether they've got mental ill health, whether they're dealing with personal challenges, whatever it is. And I think there is a sense of I almost feel it's used as a smokescreen. I don't want to get it wrong, I don't know what to say, so I'm just not going to do it. And we've got this app, so we know apps have a place, we know they're really useful, of course we want to use technology, but I don't think it ever replaces that human to human connection. And of course, we don't always know what to do if someone's grieving and they're looking after a sick child. It's really, really tough. But we can say, I don't know what you're going through, I'm here to listen. Would you like information on resources? What's going to be most useful to you? Would you like to have time off work? Would you like to go down to a phased approach and people say, oh, well, what about the needs of the business? But the needs of the business are that you need to keep good staff. So, yes, it might be a temporary thing. I also think when you asked that question, what was going through my mind was around the systems. So, yes, we want people to be positive and talk, but we also want to think about systems that work for people. So why do people have to be completely red carpet at all times to customers? So, of course we need to respect customers, of course we want to provide good customer service, but that shouldn't be at the detriment of your mental wellbeing, this idea of you've got to put your own oxygen mask on first. So I think creating boundaries is a really key one. So I think as 2023 was ringing in, there were lots of books released on boundaries and it feels like this is a really big topical issue and it's hard because we're not always taught how to put boundaries down in our personal or our professional lives. And of course, it does rely on good line managers, on a good culture that says, you know what, these are the parameters they're clear, this is what we expect from our staff, this is what you can expect from us. These are the service level agreements, breathing documents and guidance that are clear, succinct and supportive, as opposed to these really convoluted, often very complex or nonexistent policies about if you get ill, dot, dot, dot. And of course you need that. But like you said, we do need to be anticipatory and I bang on about that all the time.

You don't have to give any company names. But can you describe a situation where companies got it really right in terms of personal development, training, mental health awareness and training?

Yeah. So I think, again, that's a great question and it tends to fluctuate, but there's a very big fashion retail company who've done a lot of work in this area and I help them to set up their initial mental health training and then they've done a refresh of it and they're very keen. I think the only thing I would say is often what happens is with big organisations is the core office staff are employed and paid for by the company, but then Lots is outsourced, so the cleaning staff can be outsourced, the catering staff are outsourced. And then it's very challenging because often they're the staff, the outsourced staff that really need the protection and the help and they don't get it. And we saw that at the protest, I think it was last year, 18 months ago, outside Great Ormond Street, where the porters and the cleaning staff, who are absolutely essential, and in that case were predominantly from global majority backgrounds, were not given the support they needed. So that's not me being negative, but I think that if companies are really going to get it right, they need to think holistically and part of the procurement process needs to be, how do you support your staff? How can we have a partnership on this? They are also working in this space. They are paid by you. Obviously we pay you an amount of money to fulfil this contract, but we need to think about that support. And I just don't think those conversations are being had at all.

I would never have thought about it unless you raised it. That's a really good point, because you almost feel like I'm outsourcing it, so I don't have any responsibility.

Exactly. And I think it's very scary and I think it's dangerous. And I think that actually the Equality Act and the previous acts and around procurement was meant to help with that. But I think, sadly, it's been very, very abused. And many years ago there was this conversation going on at SOAS. It's public knowledge, it was in the press. I'm not saying anything I shouldn't and at LSE, and I'm not trying to be negative about those universities, but again, there were key issues that students and many staff felt shouldn't be happening.

And I guess now after lockdown in the ways we're working now, there's more and more that is being delegated all around the world, more and more outsourcing that takes place. That's really interesting way of looking at it. I've never thought about it. Well, we have definitely covered the questions, but taken the conversation in all sorts of different tangents. We're going to take a little break now and when we come back, we're going to talk more about the inner game of confidence and also about Impostor Syndrome, which is talked about a lot in the industry. So, welcome back, everyone. Today I am talking to Leyla about confidence, and in the first part we talked about what confidence meant and confidence within the SEO industry, and also about personal development and other skills based learnings, including mental health. So the next question I want to ask you is you did a talk at Women in Tech fest on confidence and there were lots of slides, there were background slides, there was talk about how it impacts different communities. And then from memory, there was one slide that talked about the inner work, the self belief, the inner chatter and I remember at the time thinking that's a huge topic just on one slide. I feel personally that when we're talking about confidence, it is go and learn this new skill or go and put on an outfit that makes you feel good. And the older I get and the more I talk about this topic and learn about this topic, there's a balance in it, there's the inner game and then there's the outer game. But the inner game isn't something I feel we talk a lot about even less people actually want to do it because it's hard. What are your thoughts on it? Why don't we do that work? Why don't we talk about it using your sensories? You look at your hearing, your sight, your smell, everything is about outside. And then from a young age we're told, oh, don't do that. What will they say, what will they think? You're conditioned to look at people's body language, you adjust your behaviour, but we don't really get talk about looking within and that's where the key is, I feel.

So I think it's very difficult, isn't it? Because I think doing any kind of inner work can be very painful and it can bring up a lot of things and we often more than anything and it's the same with antiracism or when you're addressing your own racism, it's very, very uncomfortable. And so we don't like to be uncomfortable because many of us don't like to feel uncomfortable because especially if you're not used to feeling uncomfortable, you don't want to do it. So it's easier to put on an outfit. And I do really believe in power posing, but it's part of a bigger picture to do that power pose, to have some mantras up on your wall or whatever, that's easier to do. And I think one of the reasons is that people find it very difficult is it can bring up feelings of shame, and no one wants to feel ashamed of themselves, or it brings up the feelings of shame that we might have really deep inside to the surface. And then what do you do with that once it's there? And I don't think that that's the aim of confidence work, but I think anytime we delve deeper into ourselves, that can be what happens. And so when people get criticised at work, the criticism at work, it can be constructive feedback. But if it is criticism, if the person going back to the personal development question doesn't have the skills to deliver that feedback in a constructive way, there's shame, there's guilt, there's a lot of pain and we don't really know how to deal with it. And again, we have our personal culture, our team culture and our organisational culture and they all overlap and we don't talk about them explicitly. So I think for people it's really hard to almost find the vocabulary to do that and to really sort of make the time to do it as well, because I think once we start digging, we also can't necessarily do it on our own. So, yes, we can use podcasts, yes, we can use self help books, but often we need to take the time to find people that can walk alongside us, whether that's a coach, a therapist, a counsellor, any mode that works for you. And that's hard. It's hard. It takes time to find the right people. And if we're so busy, we're so busy trying to achieve and do work, because that's how we show our social value. No one can see the deep work that I do, really, or if they see it, they'll see it down the line, then that can be a challenge. And also, we're taught very subtly and implicitly, and again, this depends on your personal culture, that this is a waste of your time. You should be out there achieving and earning money. What is this nonsense? Like, I should just be able to suck it up and deal with it? Why do I feel bad? No one else seems to feel bad. So I think there's almost a lot of I don't think you can accept before you do the work, but there's a lot of recognition that this is going to be really tough. And who are the people that you want to come on this journey with? You. And you may not know who it is, so how do you make the time to find them? And then once you do that, how are you going to deal with the blips in the road? And, yes, an app might app might help with that, but it's much bigger and it's much more than that.

Yeah, I agree, it's not something that you can do just with a book or just with an app or a podcast. And I totally get everything you've said. Having spent the last 15 ish years doing the inner work and it's because it went through a divorce, I was lucky enough to have a very knowledgeable uncle, my dad's brother, who's a psychiatrist, who helped me on this journey. Yes, it was painful, but now I can say that it's almost like I live every day with, like, a sports commentator with me, but not telling me what I've done, but walking me through everything. And it just I was talking to my husband who said, you know, same that you're saying it's painful. I said, yes, but once you get used to it, it's so empowering. But you've got to do the work. And I feel that by just pushing it under the carpet, ignoring it, there is so much potential in everyone that isn't unlocked because of that resistance to do that inner work.

And we were also talking about, weren't we, Tazmin, before we started recording, just how negative thoughts can make you physically sick. We know this, there's research on it. Dr Gabor mate, Dr Bessel van der Koke, talks about how trauma can really create a lot of physical illness in the body. And I'm not saying it's easy to deal with, I'm not blaming anyone for having physical illness. But we know that the negative impacts are so great. And conversely, of course, if we start doing it, it's initially very painful, but the payoff is huge in terms of mental and physical outcomes.

So I've been following Dr. Joe Dispenza a lot recently, and he's one saying of you've got to think higher than you feel. So when I wake up in the morning, it is working on your own, in your own business, which is very young. There is days when I wake up and thinking, how am I going to solve this problem? But I have to force myself, literally force myself to say, right, I need to think higher than I'm actually feeling right now. Because if I do, I will feel better, if I feel better, I will do better and I will act differently. And he talks about walking, meditation, where you become psychologically, you become the person that has the thriving business or whatever it is that you want to do. I have a lake near our house, so it's public lake. It's not my lake. I keep on calling it my lake, and I walk around it thinking the thoughts of that person. So for me, because it has had such a huge positive impact, when I see other people struggling, I feel like saying, it can be better. It really can be. And like you said, it's your thoughts, another key. So, yeah, it is a tough one. Another tough one then is impostor syndrome. So many people in the SEO industry talk about impostor syndrome and how it impacts their confidence. And I know you have particular spin on this. It'd be really good to hear your thoughts.

Yeah, this demon of impostor syndrome, and there's so much so the original research was done by Clance and Amos, I think it was in 1978. It was between 1973 and 1978. I can't remember when the actual paper was published. Now, and it was done on very high achieving Euro American women, predominantly in kind of academic spheres, but not completely. And it was around these Euro American women who felt like they were going to be found out that they didn't have the right to be somewhere and they were very high achieving. Now, I'm not saying impostor syndrome doesn't exist for some people, but I think this kind of pathology and I mentioned this, didn't I say it's not a pathology, it's a feeling. And it's very different too. We all feel uncomfortable, we all have doubts, we all think, Can I do this? That doesn't mean you and it was called impostor phenomenon. Okay, that's the other thing. The original research paper was called impostor phenomenon. It is not a syndrome. It is not something you can take tablets for, but we will all feel uncomfortable in certain. Contexts. So if you put me in tech startup boardroom with predominantly white men dressed in grey suits, I am going to feel uncomfortable, because especially now, having my business, I am not in those environments. Does that mean for me personally, I don't have Impostor syndrome? I feel a bit like, yucky, I will have a sinking feeling in my tummy. I won't necessarily want to be there, but if I'm there to talk about my expert area, I will do it. It doesn't mean I feel the most energised and uplifted by it. Maybe by the end of it I'll feel better, probably because it's putting me in an anxious position for a moment. Yes, but that doesn't mean I have Impostor syndrome. I think the problem is it's become a commercial industry. Impostor syndrome. Oh, we have impostor syndrome. Here's a workbook, here's a thing, here's this, here's that, here's an app, here's this. And I just feel like all women do not have this and we shouldn't have it. And the researchers never wanted it to be like this. But I'm not saying that it doesn't exist as a real thing for many people. I understand that. And it will affect women more than men because of patriarchy, not because there's anything specifically, quote unquote, wrong with women, I really want to be clear about that, but because of patriarchy and how women are made to feel less than in pretty much all cultures. So, yes, I do have a take on it and I think it's to acknowledge, when do I feel uncomfortable, when do I feel overwhelmed, when do I feel anxious? And it's probably quite a lot because that's a human experience and what other techniques I'd like to use versus, oh, my God, I'm imposter, I feel like a fraud, I'm going to be tapped on the shoulder. And if that is you, and you think Leyla's talking rubbish, I do have that, I acknowledge that. And it's going back to, can your employer help you? Who can help you, what would you like to do? What's going to make you feel better and more in control? And again, you can try and do some of it on your own, but you probably need someone to support you with it who really knows what they're talking about and has research based background, because there are far too many people claiming they are coaches without proper qualifications. Which worries me, because you can actually do a lot more damage than you can. Good saying. Oh, you've got Impostor syndrome, you've got Impostor syndrome to make money. And that's what makes me very angry.

So a lot that you said there, so, one, it's acknowledging that we have those feelings and they are feelings, they're not us. And in an industry such as SEO, where it is high thriving, it is progressive learning, striving forward, every time you try and do something you've never done before, you're going to feel those things because it's part of growth. And also there is a power in the words that we use, saying I have Impostor syndrome, when it possibly could be the natural feeling of anxiety and overwhelm that you will get in certain situations makes it very powerful and makes yourself a lot weaker. You end up feeling that you're weaker. So our choice of words is critical.

In many situations and I just think it's sorry, Desmond.

No, carry on.

It's just a sense that we should all have. There really is a thing about we should all have it. And I talked about it at the conference and I don't know if you've read the HBR paper, the Harvard Business Review paper, with two global majority, rishika Tulsian and Jodianne Burry, and they talk about again, it was done in the States, but it was global majority. Women of colour, they said was a terminology they use that we don't actually experience that. And that's why I call it Frustration syndrome. It's like, I know I can do the job, why am I not given the opportunity? So it's going to be different for different people. It's going to depend on, again, how close you are to systemic advantage or how much advantage you have or disadvantage you have. That's all going to impact it impact the sensations and feelings that we have. Who has the right to be in which spaces, who normally gets seen? Are people seen more than they want to be seen? Because, of course, that can create this sensation of impostor phenomenon. But, yeah, I just think there's too much prescribing of this fake syndrome because.

It serves a commercial purpose.

In my eyes, I've just seen way too much of it.

That's really interesting way of looking at it. You know what, I knew the time would go fast today and indeed it has gone fast. So, sadly, we have run out of time. But thank you so much for your insights. But before we say goodbye, a couple of last minute questions. If you were to leave our listeners with one piece of advice or information, what would that be?

So I often talk about this, don't I, which is you have done amazing things, you are doing amazing things and you will go on to do even more amazing things. So please make a list of them and remember them. So that could be replastering your home, that could be changing the light bulb in your car headlights, those are amazing things. Because there may not be in our daily skill sets, especially for an SEO professional. For some of you, it might be. Make a note of everything and look at that list and remember you've done it before, you can do it again. There will be hurdles, but have trust that the process might flex, it might change, but it will work out in the end somehow. And make sure that you have the right people around you for that support, because we can't do everything on our own. We're actually not designed to do everything on our own.

I certainly can't change a light in your headlights.

Yeah. Your car headlines.

I can't do that. I have never done that. Doesn't mean I will never do that. And if I'm presented with the opportunity, I will give it my all. And lastly, not lastly, I'll have one more question. After this, we've started to ask our guests, if they were to give a shout out to someone in the SEO industry, who would it be? So, for you, who would it be?

Yes. So from my knowledge, my limited knowledge of the SEO industry, it would be my fellow speakers at the conference, but in particular the organiser of the conference, who is Ariej Abu Ali, who is a phenomenal woman and person. And when she stood up there and she said, I'm giving 10% of the recording profits to the Syria Turkey earthquake, I mean, that for me, was just massive leadership.

Yeah, well, I don't think you'll find many people disagreeing with that choice. Lastly, then, this is the last question. I'll let you go. If anyone wants to get in touch with you, what's the best way to do it? Of course, we'll put all of the links in the Show Notes.

Yeah, thank you, Tazmin. So it's diverseminds.co.uk is my website. It's @diversemindsuk on Facebook and Twitter and it's @diversemindspodcast on Instagram. And you can find me using my name. L-E-Y-L-A Turkish spelling. O-K-H-A-I at LinkedIn. So really love to connect with people, hear from you and yeah, let's get in touch.

That's wonderful. Thank you so much. And I wanted to say thank you to our listeners for tuning into another episode of the SEO Mindsets podcast. As I said at the beginning of the podcast, if you'd like to support us, then head over to our Buy Me A Coffee page. The link is in the show notes where you can give us a one off donation. And also, if you enjoyed the content and you'd like to sign up to the newsletter, there is also a link to the show notes. And later, thank you very much.

Thank you so much for having me. Take care, everyone.

Take care, everyone. Bye for now. Bye.