This week my guest is Dr Orinayo Onabanjo, a chartered counselling psychologist with a passion for perinatal mental health. Orin's skills include helping mums cultivate stronger attachments with their babies and addressing the impact unresolved childhood trauma can have on the journey of motherhood. We chat everything from mum guilt to the racist inequalities faced by black and brown parents in the UK maternity system.

*TRIGGER WARNING: Birth Trauma and PTSD*

IN THIS EPISODE WE DISCUSS:



[00:00] Teaser quote.

[01:46] Introducing Orin.

[04:12] How Orin helps new parents.

[04:45] The identity change and adjustment that occurs when you become a parent.

[13:03] The relationship of unresolved childhood trauma and becoming a parent.

[15:23] High expectations and the pressure to be 'super mum' or 'super dad'. The need to be more self compassionate.

[16:51] Reflecting on perfectionism and the drive to be the 'perfect' parent. The importance of self compassionate action.

[19:49] 'Good enough' parenting and mum guilt.

[23:17] Black and minority mums are 4x more likely to die in childbirth. The urgent need to look into this and better understand the black experience.

[28:05] Orin's work with healthcare providers, increasing their understanding of perinatal mental health.

[34:26] Early intervention is key.

[36:30] If you feel trauma from your birth, you have birth trauma. You don't need a formal diagnosis of it.

[37:01] The impact of being emotionally invalidated during your labour.

[39:30] How to get in touch with Orin.

KEY TAKEAWAYS:

1. The phrase 'perinatal' refers to the period before and after having your baby.
2. It can be difficult to adjust to your new identity, and it's okay for you to 'grieve' for the person you were before. It's a huge transition - allow yourself to time to adjust.
3. Make Birth Better (Birth Trauma Support)
4. You can listen to our special episode on Birth Trauma with Dr Becca Moore of Make Birth Better here.
5. Unresolved emotional wounds from childhood trauma can reappear when you become a parent.
6. Self care and self compassion is really important when you become a parent - it's not selfish and it helps the entire family.
7. Listen to our special episodes on Self Compassion Part 1 and Self Compassion Part 2 with Poonam Dhuffer of YSM8.
8. The 15 minute Loving Kindness Meditation will help you relax, reset and recharge any time you need it. You don't need to meditate - just close your eyes and listen to Poonam's words.
9. It's not realistic to be 'perfect' - there is no such thing!
10. Don't compare yourself to people's social media feeds - it's not a true reflection of what's really going on for them.
11. The MBBRACE-UK Report 2020 into maternal deaths showed that black mums in the UK have 4x the risk of dying in pregnancy in comparison to a white woman.
12. Black and minority mums are more like to have or develop mental health problems during the perinatal period and are less likely to get help.
13. FiveXMore is dedicated to supporting mothers with its campaigning work and recommendations. It focuses on empowering Black women to make informed choices and advocate for themselves throughout their pregnancies and after childbirth.
14. Tokophobia is the extreme fear of giving birth.
15. Early intervention is hugely important in terms of getting help.
16. Feeling emotionally invalidated during your labour is highly traumatising.
17. Get in touch with Orin here

If you enjoyed this episode, please share, rate and subscribe. It really does make the difference in helping others find it – which means helping more parents in need.

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Email: bluemumdays@gmail.com

NEXT EPISODE:

Our special Christmas episode is with Sandra Igwe, maternal health advocate, TEDx speaker and founder of the Motherhood Group. Sandra talks to me about her work raising awareness of the disparities of black women's maternal mental health outcomes and issues. She also bravely shares her own personal experience of birth trauma and motherhood.

SUPPORT:

If you are struggling right now, please know that it’s okay to talk and reach out for help. 

YOU ARE NOT ALONE AND WILL NOT FEEL THIS WAY FOR EVER. 

We hope these support services are helpful (please note we do not check or monitor them individually).

Action on Postpartum Psychosis (APP)

Moderated Forum, click here to find out more.

Email: app@app-network.org

Tel: 020 3322 9900

ADDA - the Attention Deficit Disorder Association

National Resource Center (NRC)/ADHD Helpline Health Information Specialists

866-200-8098, Monday-Friday, 1 p.m. — 5 p.m. ET

ADHD UK - peer support, created by people with ADHD for those with ADHD

The ADHD Foundation - the neurodiversity charity

Call us - 0151 541 9020

Email - info@adhdfoundation.org.uk

AIMS for better birthing.

Email: helpline@aims.org.uk

This email will go to a group of AIMS volunteers and someone will respond as soon as possible.

Telephone: +44 (0) 300 365 0663

You will be able to leave a voicemail message which will be sent to all our Helpline Volunteers. Please include your name, phone number and brief details of your enquiry. A Volunteer will try to call you back as soon as possible.

Andy's Man Club

A non-judgemental talking group for men

https://andysmanclub.co.uk/club-information/clubs/

Email: info@andysmanclub.co.uk

Association of Postnatal Illness

Helpline: 10am – 2pm – 0207 386 0868

Email: info@apni.org

Live chat online facility

Best Beginnings

Free NHS-accredited Baby Buddy app offering

evidence-based information and self-care tools to help parents during pregnancy

and early stages of parenting.

App users also have access to a confidential, text-based Crisis Messenger which provides

24/7 support for new and expectant parents who are feeling extremely anxious or overwhelmed.

Bi-Polar UK

email: info@bipolaruk.org

Birth Trauma Association

Email: support@birthtraumaassociation.org.uk

CALM

Contact CALM

on their national helpline: 0800 58 58 58 (5pm-midnight)

Cedar House Support Group

Email: lwise@talktalk.net (Liz Wise)

Mobile: 07773 283556

Contact: for families with disabled children

Support, advice and information for parents with disabled children.

• helpline: 0808 808 3555
• website: https://contact.org.uk/

Dad Matters

Support dads to have successful relationships with their families, with mental health and accessing services through peer support and signposting.

kierananders@homestarthost.org.uk

0161 344 0669

DadsNet 

Offers support and knowledge through a community of dads on practical parenting and fatherhood.

Dope Black Dads

A digital safe space for fathers who wish to discuss their experiences of being black, a parent and masculinity in the modern world.

hello@dopeblack.org

Family Lives

An organisation providing immediate help from volunteer parent support workers 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.

• helpline: 0808 800 2222
• website: www.familylives.org.uk

Family Rights Group

Support for parents and other family members whose children are involved with or need social care services.

• helpline: 0808 801 0366
• website: www.frg.org.uk

Fathers Reaching Out

https://www.reachingoutpmh.co.uk/

Run by Mark Williams, campaigner, speaker and writer, offering support to dads.

FiveXMore

A grassroots organisation committed to changing Black women and birthing people’s maternal health outcomes in the UK.

Email: fivexmore@gmail.com

Gingerbread

Single parents, equal families. Help and advice on the issues that matter to lone parents.

• helpline: 0808 802 0925
• website: www.gingerbread.org.uk

The Hub of Hope

A directory of mental health support around the UK.

LGBT Mummies

Supporting LGBT+ women & people globally on the path to motherhood or parenthood.

Email: contact@lgbtmummies.com

Make Birth Better (Birth Trauma Support)

Email: hello@makebirthbetter.org

Maternal OCD

Peer support available, email info@maternalocd.org to

arrange

Mayah's Legacy

Supporting and empowering anyone who has experienced pregnancy loss to advocate for themselves.  

Email: info@bigoutreach.org

0300 102 1596

The Motherhood Group

Dedicated to sharing and supporting the black maternal experience through peer support, projects and advocacy.

info@themotherhoodgroup.com

Motivational Mums Club

Offering Trauma, Mindfulness and Meditation sessions for Mothers and Mums to be with an NHS Mental Health Specialist, who’s also a Mother.

motivationalmumsclub@gmail.com

Music Football Fatherhood

Open conversations around fatherhood, including blogs, peer support and podcasts.

hello@musicfootballfatherhood.com

Muslim Women’s Network

Helpine: 0800 999 5786, open Mon-Fri 10am –

4pm with support offered in English, Urdu, Punjabi, Mirpuri, Putwari, Hindko,

and Bengali.

Email: info@mwnhelpline.co.uk

Online chat: www.mwnhelpline.co.uk

Text: 07415 206 936

Netmums

Netmums offer peer support via their Maternal Mental Health Drop-In

Clinic.

NHS

Contact your local GP surgery.

Call the NHS on 111

or contact a local NHS urgent mental health helpline

If you are in crisis, visit Accident & Emergency at your nearest hospital.

PANDAS

Helpline open from 9am-8pm every day – 0843 2898 401

Email support available – info@pandasfoundation.org.uk

Perinatal Wellbeing Ontario

PRENATAL, PREGNANCY AND POSTPARTUM SUPPORT & CONNECTION in Canada

info@perinatalwellbeing.ca

Petals

Petals offers free-of-charge specialist counselling to anyone who has experienced pregnancy

or baby loss.

Web: petalscharity.org/counsellingcontact/

Email: counselling@petalscharity.org

Tel: 0300 688 0068

PMH Support

Scott Mair is a consultant in paternal mental health and parent education, Peer support trainer. Dad, Husband, Army veteran. 

Samaritans

Tel: 116 123

(this is a free telephone number and will not appear on the phone bill)

Web: www.samaritans.org

Email: jo@samaritans.org

Sands Charity

Emotional and practical support for anyone affected by the death of a baby.

0808 164 3332

Email: helpline@sands.org.uk

Shout

Text SHOUT to 85258 to start a confidential...

There's this immense pressure to be the perfect parent, to be

super mum or super dad or whatever it is.

it is compounded by societal images that we see out there and it's just

not realistic to try to be perfect.

Consider whether what you're aiming for is realistic.

I know it might seem that way because, celebrities and people

online make it seem so easy!

Remember that whatever you see is one part.

People choose what they present.

Even friends and family members, they choose what they present to you.

So you have no idea unless you obviously know somebody very well, all the other

parts that they may be dealing with.

Don't transpose a section or a snapshot of what somebody is showing you,

and then use that to compare your whole life or your whole experience.

Cause that just piles the pressure on more as well.

Having a baby is meant to be the most joyful time of your life.

But for many mums and dads, it can be the hardest and at

times the darkest of places.

Welcome to Season 2 of Blue MumDays, the podcast for anyone

struggling with parenting.

All the stories shared here are from the heart.

These are real conversations and may be triggering, so

please listen with discretion.

Today's episode covers birth trauma, birthing in extreme

situations and post-traumatic stress disorder We will also signpost

you to help in the show notes.

Thank you.

This episode was recorded during the spring of 2022.

Today's Guest is Dr.

Orinayo Onabanjo.

Orin is a chartered counselling psychologist with a passion for

delivering psychological therapy and perinatal wellbeing workshops.

These are aimed at mums experiencing a range of mental health and interpersonal

challenges during the perinatal period.

Her skills also include helping mums cultivate stronger attachments

with their babies and addressing the impact unresolved childhood trauma

can have on the journey of motherhood.

Orin has worked in mental health for 10 years in a variety of settings,

including the NHS, charities and educational settings, bringing a wealth of

experience to her role as a psychologist specialising in perinatal mental health.

Welcome to Blue MumDays Orin, lovely to have you join us today.

Thank you.

It's good to be here.

So, first of all, can you explain what you do and also why you got into

perinatal mental health as a field?

Yeah, sure.

So in a nutshell, what I do, so I'm a psychologist, so I'm, predominantly

offering psychological therapy.

Sometimes this is individual or in a group setting to individuals

experiencing a range of difficulties.

But I have a specialist interest of working with Mums, um,

during the perinatal period.

I do offer therapy, I also do workshops, but I also do, training and consultation

to other healthcare professionals around perinatal mental health as well.

So that's some of the things I do.

So a range of different things.

And in terms of, why I got into perinatal mental health, I've just always been

really interested in birth, pregnancy, from quite a young age, to be honest.

And so when I was doing my psychology training, I attended a conference

around perinatal mental health, and then it just occurred to me I had an

epiphany really, and I thought, "oh, this is what I can specialise in since

I've had this interest for so long".

So yeah, that's how I found myself in this field.

Rather than any lived experience, but, you know what an incredibly rewarding

area and I would love to talk to you a bit later on about the work that you're

doing with healthcare professionals, 'cause I think that's a really important

thing that we can explore, but it would be really good to know in terms of,

because this podcast is aimed at parents predominantly the sorts of things

that you might offer help with for Mums or dads going through having a baby.

Yeah.

So I guess it's a range of things really.

Um, sometimes it can be, low moods, so depression, it can be anxiety.

And that anxiety can be about lots of different things- it could be about just

the process of becoming a new parent and kind of, how that changes everything

or it changes a lot of things for most people and and kind of adjusting to that.

It can be worries around being a good parent, whether they're

gonna do a good job or not.

Sometimes it's more around relationship difficulties that, a

person might be experiencing with their partner if they have one.

And also identity comes up a lot, sort of yeah, becoming

a mother, becoming a father.

And yeah, the identity changes that happen and what your life was like

before , and then, adjusting to a new configuration of yourself, as who you

still are, but also as a parent as well.

So those are some of the things that come up.

And also birth trauma comes up lot as well actually.

So I do work with a lot of parents around processing their birth

trauma and seeing what it is that they need as opposed to, not

necessarily move on, but to feel that they can recover the experience.

So yeah, there are a few things there.

And for anybody that's listening who has had a traumatic birth or

feels that they're having negative effects of their birthing experience,

we do actually have a specific episode relating to birth trauma with Dr.

Rebecca Moore of Make Birth Better.

So please look out for that episode and give it a listen.

Becoming a parent is literally a roller coaster of emotions and I

love that you are actually looking at the whole perinatal period.

So for anybody that doesn't know what perinatal means, it's from pregnancy

through to actually your postnatal period.

So it's the whole thing rather than just before or just after.

Yeah.

I'd love to talk to you more about the identity thing because that's

something that I as a parent, really related to, and a lot of the people that

I've spoken to have felt quite difficult emotions around adjusting to being...

suddenly your "mum", and your identity as an individual, disappears overnight.

And also in terms of the postnatal care you get, it's always very much aimed at

the baby and less about, "how are you mum?

How are you, dad?"

So yeah, if you could talk a bit more about that.

Thank you.

Yeah.

Yeah, definitely.

I think a lot of people struggle with that, and I think sometimes people

find it difficult to say that they're struggling with that because it's

obviously, it's seen as such a joyous thing, and for most people, having a

baby is, but just because it's a joyful thing doesn't mean it's not hard work.

Of course, it's hard work and it's, it's it's a person, it's a little

person, but they're gonna grow up into being a fully fledged human being.

And it's like it changes the family dynamic, it changes the family system, it

changes your life both psychologically, but also practically on a day to

day basis, your life has changed.

So I think a lot of people struggle because perhaps they're not,

they're no longer able to do the things that they were doing before.

'Cause now you know, the central focus of their life is

no longer maybe their career.

Anything else they may have been involved in or themselves really,

now it's the central focus, it has to be about the baby, especially

in those kind of early, early days.

But I don't think it should be only just about the baby though.

So I think it's really difficult.

I think there's a lot of ambivalence 'cause there's the joy of it,

there's the excitement of it, but then , people also often talk about

a sense of loss and a sense of grief and feel quite ashamed to say that

because they feel that they shouldn't be saying that 'cause they've got this

blessing or they've got this gift.

But the reality is that I think the way I see it or understand

it is that life is a paradox.

There's, good things happen, but it's not just always good.

there's a number of things that, come with that.

And you have to work things out and navigate it.

And so I think I also see becoming a parent, becoming a mother,

becoming a father, it can be quite paradoxical in terms of, you have

a lot of mixed feelings about it.

And that doesn't mean you don't love your child.

It doesn't mean that you don't wanna be a parent, but like you're

a human being and you are going through all of these changes.

I guess in, in the work that I do, I always really try to normalize

that sense of ambivalence, because it's normal to feel ambivalent.

It's still life at the end of the day.

It's a different phase of life.

When do we ever just feel completely positive about anything really.

It ebbs and it flows and there's good days and there's bad days.

And I think the thing that, that can be quite shocking, is that

sometimes people don't expect that identity change or expect that shift.

they might imagine, oh yeah, obviously they're going into a

new phase of life and they're preparing themselves mentally for it.

But sometimes it's when you actually get there, then you think, "oh my gosh, this

is what it's really like" sort of thing.

And so I think, it's about as much as possible trying to

cultivate, self-compassion.

I think during that time as much as possible to just allow yourself to

adjust, 'cause it's a transition.

And why should you expect yourself to just be able to go through a transition

smoothly without any blips, without, you know, everything going perfectly.

It's just not real.

It's not realistic as well.

As far as I'm concerned, it's not realistic.

And in terms of, my clinical experience of working with parents, that just

doesn't really tend to be how it is.

And there's a lot there.

yeah, the identity thing is a big, it's a big thing.

I think it's important to think about, I guess be open to the idea

that your identity will change.

and that it may not be helpful to want to hang onto exactly what it

was before, because now it just, it can't be exactly what it is before.

But that doesn't mean you have to completely lose yourself.

And even if you find that you do, that doesn't mean you can't find

a way back to reconnect with the parts of yourselves that actually

you really value and you hold dear.

and sometimes it can be an opportunity to reflect and think, well, what,

you know, what was I doing before?

What parts of myself were kind of present before?

Do I want to keep that?

Or actually maybe, you know, through going through this process made me

think that's not something I wanna do anymore or be involved in anymore.

That's not how I think anymore.

And it's, it's quite a fluid dynamic process.

So I think it's allowing it to be what it is, um, to be honest.

But yeah, I've said a lot there.

So

No,

I'll pause

that's,

a moment.

no, it's fabulous and I think it's going to be hugely reassuring to a lot

of listeners it's incredible because in any other field you have preparation.

You know, like any sort of work experience or new experience,

there's always lots of research you can do and prepare for things.

But actually nothing quite prepares you for becoming a parent.

You can do loads of reading, go to like workshops, NCT, whatever.

But overnight you are suddenly responsible for a human being's life

and nothing can prepare you for that.

And just, just to have somebody with your authority and your experience to

say it's okay, and it is normal to find that adjustment difficult and that's

okay, and you don't need to snap into it overnight and you can grieve the

parts of you that you feel you've lost.

And having come through it myself, I would just like to reassure any

listeners that as Orin says, the bits that you want to take with you, you

will get back in touch with those.

Hmm.

especially in the, the first year of your baby's life, your child's

life and the adjustment to becoming a parent, you might think, and especially

with, you know, lack of sleep and your, your whole schedule just up in the

air, that you are never going to get normal life as you knew it back again.

But I am here to say you absolutely will, and that, it's just a matter of time.

So just go with the flow.

Again, as Orin says, life is a paradox.

you're never going to be completely happy or completely unhappy.

There's a lot of gray areas and just let those emotions come and go, but

you are absolutely entitled and it is normal to find it a struggle at times.

Hmmhmm completely.

I completely agree.

Yeah.

But it's funny actually how little things, like one thing I remember, so

I've always been really into music and I would go to gigs all the time before I

had Stanley and I was in an all girl rock band, and there was a point when I was

absolutely at my lowest with postnatal depression was that, even if one of

my favorite songs came on the radio, I had to turn it off because it would

just, it was like this weird sort of signifier of my previous life and it would

actually make me feel physically sick.

Hmm.

I don't think I'll ever fully understand it, but I think that was

part of the illness and part of that thing about identity and who I was now.

But it's, yeah, it's such a reassuring thing to hear that from you, so

thank you for sharing that with us.

What other issues do you find come up time and time again with

the people that you work with?

Yeah.

I think another thing is around, I suppose childhood trauma.

And when I say that trauma doesn't necessarily need to mean something

really, overtly obviously terrible happened during your childhood?

For some people it is, it might be that, but sometimes, the other way

I can, I suppose phrase it is kind of difficult childhood experiences.

So I think sometimes, not everybody's always fortunate to have necessarily

grown up in a family set up that was the ideal or good enough, 'cause

obviously it can never be perfect.

And so sometimes there can be I suppose, almost what I would call

emotional wounds from that time, that rear their head again, when

you become a mum or a dad or parent.

That's a lot of the work that I do actually, with some people, is like

processing the things that have come up for them because it's almost like in a

way they can sometimes feel that they're recreating a dynamic that they had

with maybe their parents or particular family members, with their own children.

And they don't wanna do that.

They don't necessarily pass on those same kind of intergenerational patterns.

working through that, kind of trying to disentangle what's theirs, and put

things back where they belong, I suppose.

And kind of like as a grown up,

looking back at their childhood from a different, grown up lens rather than

from a childhood lens, 'cause obviously it's a very different vantage point.

and so yeah, that's, something that comes up a lot is kind of working through

that and going back in trying to resolve some of the experiences that a person

may have had so that they can kind of almost decontaminate their own journey

towards being a parent and how they want to raise their children, how they want

to respond to their children, how they want to do things, rather than being on

autopilot and just repeating the patterns that you are used to, which we all do.

So I think it is up for some people, it's a process of becoming more self-aware,

about where they are and what I guess also unpicking what does parenting mean?

What does it mean to be a mother?

- I have to say that the work I do predominantly has been with, mums

what does that actually mean?

And sometimes there'll be all sorts of connotations with what it means.

And that's obviously going to leak into how you're going about it, as well.

So that's something that, comes up a lot And another thing that comes up a lot is

learning to be more self-compassionate.

There's a lot of self-criticism, there's a lot of very high expectations.

There's a lot of perfectionism.

I'm, I'm nodding furiously as you're

saying this.

yeah.

And that's quite a common theme that comes up for people.

There's this immense pressure to be the perfect parent, to be super

mum or super dad or whatever it is.

And it is compounded by societal images that we see out there and I

know that there's a lot of work being done to change the narrative or come

up with a different narrative on social media and things like that.

I think that's been there for a very long time.

So I don't think it's something that's gonna be dislodged overnight really.

But that's also learning how to be more compassionate.

What does it mean to care for yourself?

What does it mean to still prioritise yourself as well, even though you've got

this baby or babies or family really, if you've already got other children as well.

So those are some of the things that come up.

I think self-compassion is incredibly important.

And again, we have two episodes with Poonam Dhuffer of YSM8 for anybody

interested in how to be kinder to yourself and why it is so important, not

just for you but for the whole family, please do listen to those episodes.

And we also have a special Loving Kindness meditation- so for anybody

who needs 15 minutes to relax and just recharge and reset, please listen to

that and I hope it is helpful to you.

But I think again, this, thing keeps coming up again about

expectations and there's a lot of pressure we put on ourselves, as

mums especially, to be 'perfect'.

What is your advice to mums who struggle to be this ultimate super mum?

Yeah, what's my advice, I suppose I'd say that it's

understandable, but I think the thing is all to, is also to unpick where that

came from because it's taken for granted.

There's this pressure, you feel these expectations and you feel you've got

to adhere to them, but it's actually, are those your expectations really?

Is that what you know, if you were to rid of all the noise,

is that really what you feel?

How you want to go about it?

Was that really for you?

What feels the healthy way to go about things?

And I suppose the reason I say that is that sometimes there are all

these messages and sometimes they can come from our family as well.

They can come from people who care about us.

And it's like, you are internalising these messages, "I've got to

do this, I've got to do that.

I've got to be this, I've got to be that".

So I think just, finding a bit of space to just reflect on, "well actually these

ideas or these rules I've come up with as to what I've got to do in order to be a

perfect mum, where did I get that from?"

You know and sometimes some of the work that I've done with people is that

actually unpicking and thinking, "actually that's not even really what I think.

That's something I've heard and it's been drummed into me by, ex family member.

And it's just the norm.

But it's like I'm now realizing that it's putting me under way too much pressure.

And then actually maybe I need to come up with my own narrative.

I need to come up with my own rules".

So I would say feel free to actually try and I guess, I know it can be

hard to get into a space where you can reflect on what do you want it to be?

what would it look like for you, to feel like it felt doable?

You know, what would change, what would look different?

Would that mean you sought more help in certain areas, certain things that

you didn't do or you kind of left and you weren't on top of all the time?

And so I think trying to just encourage your own sense of, autonomy or agency

to define for yourself what it means to mother or to be a father, to be a parent,

I think is the advice I would give.

But also the other thing I would say is that- and it might sound a

bit, I don't know- but it's just not realistic to try to be perfect.

And I don't know how else to say it is to just to consider whether

what you're aiming for is realistic.

I know it might seem that way because, celebrities and people

online make it seem so easy!

I would also say remember that whatever you see is one part.

People choose what they present.

Even friends and family members, they choose what they present to you.

So you have no idea unless you obviously know somebody very well, all the other

parts that they may be dealing with.

Don't transpose a section or a snapshot of what somebody is showing you,

and then use that to compare your whole life or your whole experience.

Cause that just piles the pressure on more as well.

It's not realistic to be perfect.

I mean, there's this idea of, being a 'good enough' parent, and it's

just like, what's good enough?

Because it's about you feeling okay too.

And so you can feel okay to raise your child or to do the things that you need

to do, and actually self-compassion and perfectionism, they can't sit together.

it might not be that easy if that's not something that comes natural to you,

but I would say engage in compassionate action, so things that you know are

good for you, things that you need.

It might not be that you're convinced internally or "I really deserve that", but

your behavior is still really powerful.

And sometimes it's by changing your behavior, eventually it translates to

what's going on inside and you start to send yourself a different message.

But if, you know, we're going around doing, perfectionistic things all

the time, it keeps that message going that this is what you need to

do in order to be a 'good' parent.

So I think trying to find small ways to break that cycle, test it out, test out,

not doing the perfect thing one day.

Just see how it goes.

Leaving the washing up and just being in the moment.

I think mums in particular suffer from mum guilt.

We're guilty about everything, and especially guilty when we

do something for ourselves.

And remember the the times if Stanley was asleep and instead of using that

time fruitfully to either do the washing up or make some food or rest and relax,

I would just "no, I need to be doing this or "no, I need to be reading Grazia"

and I'd never end up doing anything.

And actually, if you sit down with a magazine, that is okay.

And if you do feel guilty and anxious doing that, that's probably okay too.

And just let that feeling sit with you 'cause what you're doing is nothing wrong

and actually it's really good for you.

Self-compassion is not being selfish and it is not putting your

needs above your child's needs.

It is something that's important for you, but also for the whole family.

Yeah completely, and I think also that- just to touch on the

point of mum guilt- is that sometimes guilt in general- not necessarily

in relation to this- is warranted, depending on what we've done or not done.

But sometimes we feel guilt because, it's like we've almost kind of

been conditioned to feel guilt.

Again, so it's like sometimes it's also the feelings that you get, "oh,

I need to be doing this, I need to be doing that" or "if I don't do this

and it means this, it means that".

Where did that actually come from?

Is that sort of like a societal thing that you know, we've taken

on, it's kind of been pushed on a lot of people, to be honest.

So it's very hard to throw that off and be the one person who

doesn't ever get mum guilt.

I'm not saying that, but it's just where did that come from?

It's also about being able to interpret differently sometimes

the emotions that we have.

So sometimes if you feel guilty then you then feel you have

to do something to correct it.

But sometimes, you know, kind of similar to what you're saying, it's like, "okay,

I'm feeling this guilt because, you know, maybe societally " or "these are

all the messages I've gotten about what it means to be a mother" and all of

these kind of thing, but actually I'm always been programmed to feel like this,

but that doesn't actually mean I can't still watch TV for an hour or, you know,

you can still override your feelings.

Like you can still have the feeling and still do what it is,

would be best for you, I suppose.

It doesn't have to be one or the other, like you don't have to

obey your feelings all the time.

So I suppose that's just challenging that a little bit.

Cause sometimes our feelings are more a reflection of our internal

state rather than "we are doing something wrong", or "it's because

we should be changing our behaviour".

That's not always the case.

So I would just make that point as well.

Thank you Orin.

The other thing I'd really love to talk to you, in more depth about

is your work with black mums and ethnic minority mums because.

I mean, something that I've learned through doing the research for this

podcast is the absolutely astounding, statistics with regards to perinatal

care for black and minority Mums.

Can you talk to me about that?

Yeah, some of you may have heard of Five Times More,

and that statistic of black- well, I mean, it's, it's a bit less, I think

it's four and a bit times more- but the point is that, you know, five times

more likely to die in childbirth in and around that time, which is really awful.

So there's that clear disparity between a black mother and their white counterpart,

that exists, and there's been a lot of campaigning and raising awareness about

that, which I think has been so important.

I guess also, from a, mental health, more psychology perspective, I've

also thought a lot about that statistic and thought, you know,

there's also so many near misses.

So obviously they're the people who sadly, unfortunately, do

die and do lose their lives.

But what about the people who almost do- the trauma, the psychological

trauma of going through that, the psychological trauma of their

families going through that.

So it is such an important thing that needs to be addressed and we need to

understand, and, I am reiterating what's already been said in the sense, but

we do need to do more research as to what is going on with that statistic.

Obviously we can't deny the fact that race is a huge aspect of that.

And I think also just speaking to I guess mental health as well is

that black mums are more likely to have or develop a mental health

problem during the perinatal period.

They're less likely to get access to help, as well.

And often there's this idea that they're hard to reach, but I'm not

really sure that I'm convinced by that.

There's some breakdown somewhere and I think it does really need to be looked

at and the onus shouldn't just be on the black mothers to be the ones to have

to reach out and stuff, because if you know the system doesn't feel safe, how

easy is it for you to then still gather the courage or gather the strength

to then say you're gonna reach out?

So I don't know how much a system is catered to the experience of, um,

black families really, to be honest.

Yeah.

So there's a higher proportion of mental health difficulties in the

black community anyway, but also within the perinatal space, high incidents

of depression and things like that.

So it's really sad and it's, I suppose that's also why, obviously I'm a black

woman myself, so it feels it's also really important for me to work with people

who look like me and who I look like.

And I know that's an important thing in many of the clients I've

talked to, have said they felt a lot more comfortable speaking to me.

And it's difficult because I guess also in my field, as a

psychologist, I'm a minority.

I'm a very small minority of psychologists out there.

Yes, predominantly they're women.

So yes, I'm a female psychologist, but at the end of the day, the proportion of

black women as psychologists, is very low.

So then when you think about how many black psychologists

or therapists are there in the perinatal mental health space?

I think I can count on my hand how many, including myself, that I know of - and I

have looked into it, you know, as well.

that's another thing is it's like, what about the representation specifically

for mental health in these perinatal mental health services, in the mother

and baby units, for people who, do have more severe difficulties.

How much are they seeing themselves?

How much are they reflected?

How much are they mirrored in the services of that saying that

they're gonna provide them help?

And I'm not to say that if you're black, that means you can't feel supported

by a white healthcare professional.

I don't think that's necessarily the case.

And I've had really good experiences with healthcare professionals

that haven't been black.

Do you see what I mean?

And it's not necessarily that if you get a black professional,

you'll have a better experience.

Not necessarily, but it's just the, it's also the kind of.

The optics of it as well.

They do matter as well in terms of creating a sense of safety

and making you maybe a bit more likely to reach out and seek help.

So I think for me, that's a big issue for me, which is why I do work a lot

with black mums during this period, because I feel they're important too.

And yes, it's not just black women who need help in the perinatal

space, but, like I said, the stats show that they need more help

cause that's more prevalent there.

So for me it feels, it sits well for me to do that and that's

what I want to do as well.

I'm just one person, , I know I'm just one person.

I hope it will change.

I hope.

I hope it will change.

Yeah.

It's so important and clearly you look at statistics and I had absolutely

no idea that these statistics were so disturbing, Clearly there's a failure,

a massive failure in terms of, how these women are treated and there is nothing

more vulnerable than giving birth.

You are never at your most vulnerable and emotionally sort of exposed.

This takes us neatly into sort of the work you're doing with healthcare providers

- does this feed into re-educating them in terms of how to work better with

mothers and communicate better with mums?

Yeah, so a part of my work is doing, training

around perinatal mental health.

It's not a huge part of my work, but I have had some opportunities to do that.

Not so much within NHS settings, but you know, kind of like other smaller

organizations who wanted to learn a bit more about it and to support.

So some of these organizations do, support a whole range of mums, but

they want to kind of understand a little bit more about how to support

mums during that period as well.

So I've done training, and I will be doing training in regards to that, but

also, yeah, it's just people who aren't necessarily, who work in the, who don't

work in mental health, who aren't mental health specialists or anything like that,

but are gonna have a lot of contact with Mums, with dads, with families as well.

I've done kind of training around you know, common mental

health difficulties, different organizations that are out there.

So how to spot the signs and symptoms.

Also thinking about the impact of certain mental health difficulties on

the person, on their family as well is some of the work that I've done.

And that's something I would like to continue to do and kind of

work more closely with maternity professionals like midwives and health

visitors and everything like that.

I I know perinatal mental health is definitely a lot more on

the agenda than it was before.

so I think it's important to keep to, to keep pushing that really,

'cause I think it's so important.

'Cause obviously we're not expecting them to be mental health

experts and know everything to do.

But I think the role there for maternity professionals, obstetricians, neonatal

nurses, you know, all these people, midwives is also, that it is about

training them to be able to assess when there's clearly a problem.

So that then they can be signposted to something like a perinatal

mental health community team.

And I know a lot of those teams do work closely with maternity departments

and maternity hospitals as well.

Yeah, training is, so important.

Something I'd like to do more of as time goes by as well, definitely.

What do you think is needed then in terms of, especially with the, black mums?

What are the top three things that would help?

Yeah.

Gosh, it's hard to, it's hard to say or to decide.

Similar to what I said earlier, I think representation is a big issue.

I'm not sure how far we're gonna get if the representation continues

to be how it is, especially, and I'm not talking so much in, I don't

know so much what the stats are for, midwives or, medical professionals.

Obviously I'm, I'm, I'm a psychologist.

I'm a doctor in psychology, not a medical doctor.

But in mental health services that are predominantly for mums 'cause there's not

only the perinatal mental health community teams, they've also launched maternal

mental health services as well, which is more for people who experience tokophobia

or they've experienced pregnancy loss - tokophobia being a fear of an intense

fear of childbirth or and birth trauma.

So I think representation is one thing, but I think also there needs to be more

of- I feel like there needs to be more of an effort within these services to

really think about specifically maybe pathways or what they are going to

do to support the black or the ethnic minority women, and families that come

through their system so that I'm, not everyone's just being treated equally

and everyone gets the same treatment.

Because actually there is a difference and we can't ignore there is a

massive difference between being a black mum, a black family and

say a white family for example.

It's not that, you know, Mental health doesn't discriminate whether you're

white, black or whoever you are.

But I think definitely there needs to be more of an intention and

explicit intention as to what are we gonna do within these services?

'Cause they are seeing black families come through.

And so how, what are the adaptions that are being made?

So I think on a service level that needs to be thought about, As well.

And I think the third thing I think is just, there just needs to

be more training really, I think.

And more research about understanding the black experience as well.

And there's been some research, but there's not a huge amount of it out there.

And some of those research is dating back to 2008.

I dunno how much research has really been done in recent years

around mental health specifically.

I think there needs to be more research that there's more of an

understanding of the experiences.

so that then that can also inform the training and the understanding

of how services are shaped, as well.

Those are the things I say I would say, but I know it's not....

Yeah, they're not, they should be easily done, but I know that they're not because

there's lots of systemic and things to consider, you know, and I understand that.

but it does need to be a priority.

It does need to be a priority.

And I wonder how much, that would also coincide that if the mental health aspect

and the health aspect, if they're being worked on, I believe they would have

knock on effects on these stats that we're seeing about maternal health outcomes and

maternal mental health outcomes as well.

' Cause you can't separate the mind from the body.

if somebody's gone in and had a really traumatic experience, they're gonna,

that's gonna be held in their body, but that's also gonna be held in their,

their mind and their psyche as well.

So that kind of looking at things in a conjoined, more of a conjoined way,

um, and just being better at listening-

yeah.

actually hearing the experience.

But yeah, I don't know.

I hope things will change.

but yeah, I I can only do my bit, I suppose, which is what I'm trying to do.

And I hope you know more therapists, psychologists and things that are coming

up in the training wall, will specialise more in perinatal mental health, but

also, trainees who are of ethnic minority as well I think, 'cause when I was

doing my psychology training, perinatal mental health wasn't even mentioned

Wow.

At all.

yeah, and I think it's quite important that it is

and it's seen as a potential career option, a potential area that you can

make a lot of difference in as well.

Cause it's, yeah, it's quite niche, but I think it's quite, it's just cause it's

niche, but it's very important as well.

I think it's fundamental.

It's hugely important, as a human being, the most fundamental

change you go through is becoming a parent and raising a human being.

And, you know, when our children are, are suffering from a massive mental

health crisis, one of the best things we can do is, is early intervention.

And that's supporting the parents, which will support the children going forward.

And also it's been proven, if I'm not mistaken, that if you.

Intervene early or screen parents who may have emotional difficulties or complex

feelings around, parenting, that it stops them progressing further down the line in

terms of their own mental health issues.

So there's, there's an economic argument.

There, there is.

There really is.

There really is.

Early intervention is key.

It is because it's, when it's not dealt with or caught, it really does have

ramifications- it could be decades in the making, and that's the truth.

I've worked with people who've been you know, sort of much older.

They've got grown up children, but they're still, say for example, really haunted

by the traumatic birth that they had.

And they feel like, obviously it's difficult to say, but they feel like the

mental health problems or difficulties that their grown up child is having,

they've linked it back to that and it's like, goodness, was that even

seen as a traumatic birth back then?

Or you know, what was done about it?

I suppose that's also why I want to work in this area 'cause I think

it's such an opportune moment to kind of break certain cycles or

relay a different type of foundation.

Yes.

You can't guarantee everything's gonna be hunky dory, but at least it's about

giving that child the best chance.

Cause they all grow up and maybe want to have their own children and and like

I said, I was talking about people who experience childhood trauma or difficult

childhood experiences like their parents.

You know, things get passed on generation to generation as well.

So I think it is an opportunity to rescript things, rewrite things

as well, as much as possible.

So I think there's a lot of hope in working in this field as well.

There's something quite hopeful I find about it as well.

It could be an opportunity to change direction,

And you know, small things can make a huge difference in

terms of how people are spoken to.

you know, even the words that are used during labour.

and just want to make this point, and this is something that we

cover in greater detail with Dr.

Rebecca Moore, is that you don't need to have a medical emergency for

your birth to be traumatic to you.

And that if you feel traumatised from your birth, you have birth trauma.

That's it.

Yeah.

When I discovered that and that helped me, my God, so much

in, in terms of, you know, I, I was feeling shameful at feeling

traumatised by my birth experience.

Those little things, you know, even just how you are treated.

'Cause a lot of the people that I speak to and certainly in my own

experience, if you are not validated or listened to, during the birth

experience, that can have fundamental

It really can.

But that, I think that's the thing is that I don't think, and I know sometimes

people don't mean to do it, but that sense of being invalidated is highly

traumatising - highly traumatising.

Not just in the context of a birth experience where you, talked about

feeling vulnerable, like you are at your most, yeah vulnerable,

I can't think of any other word.

And then to feel sidelined or erased out of the whole experience.

On a very deep level that is traumatic.

And the reason I say that is because, even thinking back at the work I do with

people who've had difficult childhood experiences, one of the running themes

about people who then end up struggling with trauma and may develop, um, I

mean these are different situations.

I'm not talking necessarily, um, birth related, but PTSD or complex

PTSD, that sense of invalidation.

Emotional invalidation, their sense of self being invalidated because

of the environment that we're going is inherently traumatic.

So I suppose what I'm trying to say is that I completely agree with you.

Invalidating people at its core is a traumatic, is a traumatising

thing to do to someone.

Yes, people will respond differently to it, but I guess what I'm trying to

say is that it cuts deep, it really does cut very deep because it cuts

the core of your being to feel like you've been erased, like you don't

matter, almost like you don't exist is a very, very, very painful thing on

a psychological level to experience.

And even relationships when we feel our partner's not validating

us or invalidating, or we feel dismissed, we find it painful.

You know, it's difficult.

So how much more in a situation where you are giving birth and you want

to feel safe and you want to feel contained, and then you feel like

you've just been completely bypassed by the people who are caring for you.

So I completely agree.

it's completely subjective as well.

If you found it traumatic, it is traumatic.

Your experience is valid.

You don't need somebody else to give you a diagnosis or tell you, "oh,

you meet the threshold for this".

It's just trust your experience.

If that's what it felt like for you, then that's what it was.

And I think it's about honoring that and thinking, what.

How do you get help or how do you get supported through it?

So not fighting with whether or not you should be feeling what you're

feeling because you are feeling it anyway, regardless of whether

you acknowledge it or you don't.

Not feeling shame

Yeah,

feeling that.

So I'll obviously put a link to your website in the show notes, but for

anybody who would like to reach out to you, how do they get in touch?

Yeah, so you can find me on Instagram at London Perinatal Wellness.

I also have a website, www.dronabanjo.com.

yeah, those are the main ways, and yeah, you'll find my sort of email

address on my website as well.

so I won't read that out now.

but yeah, those are the main ways.

you can contact me, send me a DM or send me an email or, fill in

the contact form on my website.

So yeah,

Fabulous.

Thank you so much for being a guest today.

It's been such an engaging conversation and yeah, it's been a joy

speaking to you and I'm sure hugely reassuring to a lot of listeners.

So thank you very much and, we'll speak soon.

Thank you.

Okay then Have a lovely day,

And you Bye-bye.

Bye.

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