It’s the last episode of this series and we are all about staying curious. We discuss how we define curiosity in leadership and whether it is a core leadership skill. We are not just talking about being curious about others, but being curious about your own approach to leadership and how a culture of curiosity can impact your teams and organisation.

We share our own views, thoughts and experiences:

• 03:08 – the art of asking questions
• 07:24 – benefits of being curious
• 13:56 – can you learn to be a curious leader?
• 22:24 – losing your curiosity   
• 28:21 -  How to… demonstrate curiosity

As always, we share our top takeaways to help you demonstrate curiosity as a leader. Questions are key, the types of questions you ask and how you ask them. Surrounding yourself with a diverse group of people and diverse thinking will support your curiosity.  

In this episode we reference Matthew Syed’s Rebel Ideas

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I dunno why I'm talking in a voice like

Are you channeling a specific leader that you've worked with because

I'm loving that you actually had a voice.

Obviously was, yes.

I'm like, uh, Whoopi Goldberg in Ghost, when the, when the spirit has entered me.

The spirit of poor leadership has entered you.

Hello and welcome to the last episode of series three of how to Take the Lead.

Is it series three or Series two?

It is series three.

I was like, I, I, I I looked at you like that because you said the last episode.

I was like, oh, we're not finishing really.

But then I realized you meant of, of the series,

And then I was like, is it series three or series two?

I've confused myself.

Um,

We've recorded this very early people,

yes, uh,

not had enough caffeine.

Early morning recording for us, which is unusual.

So we're a bit bleary-eyed and trying to work out what's going on.

Um, so welcome to, uh, this episode of How to Take the Lead.

I'll do all the usual just in case you are a new listener.

If you are a new listener, you can subscribe on your

podcast platform of choice.

You can even subscribe over on our YouTube channel if you would prefer

to watch us, uh, rather than just hear us and you can get involved in our

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with us to challenge the status quo.

So you can get extra bonus content, you can read additional thoughts on each

episode, get involved in conversations and launching soon, uh, will be our

book club, which is very exciting.

So, um, there's lots of ways you can get involved.

You can also catch up with us on the socials, we are on Instagram and

on Twitter at how to take the lead.

And all of that info is on our website.

How to Take the lead.com.

Hopefully that's everything.

You've nailed it, episode 10, you've nailed it.

only taken, it's only taken 10 episodes of this series to nail it.

And I think I only said uh, once as well, but we'll listen

back and I probably didn't.

Um, so how are you, Lee, before we get into the episode?

It says that she's got a mouth full of tea.

I'm alright.

I am, I'm, as I say, first cuppa, the first person I've spoken to today.

Um, yeah, I was never a fan when it, when I was in corporate life

of doing early morning meetings.

So you're, you're gonna see that side of me probably in this episode.

I apologize.

Are we just discovering uh, that we are both not morning

people because I'm not a morning person either, but I'm not

sure I knew that about you Lee.

I thought you were like up and at them, spritely at like six.

Whilst I was still groaning and going, do I have to get out bed?

Well, I get up early, but that is not with any willingness.

It just happens.

It's, it's not with full of vim and vigor, but anyway, uh, right.

So, um, having just learned something new about you, Lee, that feels

like, uh, an apt start to an episode that is about staying curious.

So, today we are going to talk about curiosity and leadership and, uh,

whether or not you are curious, how you get curious as a leader and how

you might decide to stay curious.

So, um, um curiosity and leadership is something that I've started consider

more, I guess, over the last few years of my own career, perhaps as I've

branched out to step outside of my comfort zone a bit more, doing things

like this with you, Lee, um, reading more, absorbing more like a sponge.

Um, but it's also something that I've heard others talk more about, probably

in relation to continuous learning, innovation in organizations and impacts on

culture are probably the areas where I've, I've heard this sort of word curiosity

come up more in relation to leadership.

So I thought we should explore maybe what we mean when we talk about

leadership and curiosity and whether or not we think it's a core leadership

skill, and how do we define leadership.

So I'm just gonna pose that massive question to you

first thing in the morning.

When I'm not feeling the most curious.

So for, for me, curiosity is all about the, I suppose, the art of

asking questions, but not just of other people, um, or of people.

It's, it's this thing of having an in, I see it as like an

internal, an external curiosity.

So the curiosity you have about who you are as a leader and what

you stand for and what you want to achieve and all of that kind of stuff.

And then there's a curiosity about others and what's going

on external to and around you.

So as I say, I don't think it's just a people thing.

It can be an environment, it can be a context thing as well.

Absolutely it's a core skill.

I think it's, it's very aligned with, um, your communications

and engagement skills actually.

I think it's part and parcel of that, and it's that art almost of

being able to put yourself in the shoes of either other people or

other situations that you are really exploring something from all angles.

Yeah, I really like that.

That's make, oh, it's, it's really getting to me.

Cause I'm like, oh, it's making me feel curious now.

This is exciting.

It's all the stuff I love.

So yeah, I think I like that um, position it as like internal and external, be

curious about yourself as a leader, but also part of your role, I guess, as a

leader, isn't it, is to be curious about what's happening your organisation,

your stakeholders, clients, whatever.

So, so,

it's both.

It's not either or, would say,

Yeah.

And yeah.

Yes, I am agreeing with that in a like absolutely.

Cuz it would kind of be weird, I guess, to be totally curious and inquisitive

about your own leadership style, but without having that external element

to it in terms of of the impact.

So for me, kind of the things that you've touched on that definitely resonate for

me around that sort of growth I think.

Like growth as a, a leader growth for organization.

Um, and there was something for me about adaptability as well, cuz I think, you

know, we've talked before about the current climate that leaders are operating

in and that need perhaps to be adaptable to change or what, you know, when

something happens, how you respond to it.

And Ithink sometimes through that curiosity that can enable you, enable

you to be more, more adaptable and, and I guess on a grander scale,

for me there's something about transformation and innovation.

You know, organizationally within a team, whatever that might look like for you.

You know, being led by that curious nature that you might have as

a leader or a leadership team.

So it's sounding quite exciting like something that I definitely want

to, to explore more, but I guess in the, in the space of benefits.

So what, what are the benefits of leadership curiosity to

you in your organization?

And I think you've touched on one around communication and connection, which is

something we've talked about in an entire episode and is probably a thread that goes

through many, um, of our conversations.

But for me that curiosity definitely helps to improve communication and connection.

You know, what are the other benefits of being a curious leader,

I guess is my question to you, Lee?

There's a, um, have you read Matthew Syed's Rebel Ideas book?

Mostly because you recommend it a lot through

our conversations, Lee, so.

So, um, there's a section in that book where he's talking about,

um, diverse thinking and he, he references a study that Google did into

psychological safety in, in the workplace.

And it showed that, um, where teams have higher psychological safety, They

were less likely to leave, more likely to harness diverse ideas from each

other, uh, bring in more revenue, and were rated as being twice as effective

by their senior leadership team.

And for me, that, that summarizes the environment, I suppose, that you

need to create, to have a curious team and, and people in the team.

And I think then that therefore shows the benefits that you can reap if you

create the right environment for people.

Um, So absolutely I think if you've got that curiosity, it completely helps

the bottom line of the organization.

It helps morale, it helps create that sense of safety in an organization.

That's really important.

And we've, we've done a whole other episode of that, so I

won't talk about that too much.

Um, I think there's also something about if you as a leader are demonstrating,

um, curiosity, um, as a behavior, That is almost given permission for

other people to be like that as well.

So if they see you being curious, they will be curious too.

If you shut things down, you are removing that safety.

So I think there are a whole cultural ramifications in, in how an organization

behaves based on how, how much or little you are in terms of curiosity.

And I think sometimes as you've been talking for me, I wonder

if it's the word curiosity that might be a bit off-putting for some

types of leader and leadership team.

Cuz I guess it, I don't know, it just sounds, I was gonna say,

it sounds like quite a fun word.

Like it doesn't sound like a traditional word that you would

use when you describe leadership.

I just, I wonder if when you can then talk about the benefits of being

curious, that's when it really hits home to leaders because what the research

shows and, and what we are talking about is the fact that it does have an

impact on organizational performance.

So being a curious leader and creating that culture of

curiosity, you know, exploration, transformation, innovation, enables

the organization to perform better.

And maybe the word curious doesn't perhaps capture that in a way that

would hit home with some of those more performance focused leaders.

Yeah, I mean like that links to the whole, um, conversation we had

in, in previous episodes about what style of leader you are and we, I

talked about the disc, and if you are like a D leader, you're very directed.

You asking a fewer questions because you think you know the answer or you

think that you know, your way is the way that you want to get things done.

And I've certainly worked with leaders who, um, used to think a

bit like, oh, if I communicate too much, I'm gonna slow things down.

If I engage people, I'm gonna slow things down.

That that that notion of, oh, if I ask too many questions, we're

gonna have all these things that are just gonna confuse the picture.

I dunno why I'm talking in a voice like

Are you channeling a specific leader that you've worked with because

I'm loving that you actually had a voice.

Obviously was, yes.

I'm like, uh, Whoopi Goldberg in Ghost, when the, when the spirit has entered me.

The spirit of poor leadership has entered you.

We must banish it.

Like we need to get that, get that gone.

We don't want that.

But I'm also a bit scared that it came so easily.

Then

Oh dear.

Oh, I've lost the thread of what

I've, I've al, I've also got in my head the whole way through from the

point that, from the time that you said, We're gonna be talking about curiosity.

I'm just thinking of the, the eighties band Curiosity killed Cat, and I love,

you know, I've got their vinyl downstairs.

I think that might be my soundtrack for today.

Oh, I love how our conversation goes, goes

ways that I do not expect.

Whoopy Goldberg Ghost reference Curiosity killed the cat.

For, for

any.

is, this is what you get at eight 30 in the morning from me by the

I was gonna say for any younger listeners, the

references may mean nothing to you.

We'll perhaps put some links in the show notes.

Um, so we were talking about the benefits of, um, leadership, curiosity,

and whether or not it's that phrase curiosity that perhaps puts some

performance focus leaders off.

You did your performance focus, leader voice who, uh, which was,

uh, yeah interesting for me.

I've never had that experience with you before, Lee.

Um, but I think what we're saying is we, we talked about the culture, haven't we?

We've talked about creating psychological safety, but you know, being curious

as a leader in your organization enables both you and those in your

organization to create those healthier work relationships be focused on learning

opportunities and improvement, which is only hopefully going to lead to

better decision making, more effective problem solving, increased innovation.

So for me, it feels like being as a leader is a, a win-win.

I'm not sure why you wouldn't be curious as a leader.

But you mentioned that, And as did I, that for being curious as a leader

doesn't come naturally to some people and you've worked with people who don't have

perhaps that more open, um, approach.

And naturally for me, I am quite an inquisitive person, so I feel like

I'm already operating in a mindset where I'm happy to be open-minded

and I wanna ask lots of questions, probably sometimes too many for some

people, and I really annoy them.

But if, is it something that can be learned, being curious, if it's

not your natural way of operating?

Like how do you get into that head space if you are naturally not a curious person?

And to ha what advice do you have for me when I'm maybe being over curious?

Well, I was gonna, I was gonna say there is a really fine line

between, um, being curious and being intrusive and I think leaders and, and

you not just with leaders in people.

And you see, and I've heard this often with, um, people who are trying to

become better allies, for example.

And then they ask, they put the burden on someone that, that's in that maybe

protected group or minoritized group, and they start asking loads of questions

and get really personal about stuff.

And actually they, they create more of an uh, uh, more of an issue by being

intrusive rather than inquisitive.

So there is a real fine line I think sometimes.

For me, it's around what's your motivation behind learning more and how genuine

you are in your motivation to others.

So if they, if, if another person thinks that you are interested in

them, genuinely, they're gonna open up if they think there's another reason.

It's a motive behind it.

Yeah.

Um, Or, or it's seen as a bit unusual in the way that you're questioning

all of that, then I think that's when the barriers are put up can

be offended by, by that curiosity.

So there is, I just wanted to say that cuz you, you've mentioned

about being too, too curious.

But, to come back to your point around can you learn curiosity?

I, I absolutely think you can.

I've been coaching.

I mean, I would say this as, as a coach, but the whole art of coaching is, is

around curiosity and helping others to explore things that they wouldn't

naturally be thinking of and challenging their thinking and, and, and do using

questions in a way to help people explore new opportunities and, and new thinking.

For me, I think leaders, there's several areas you could be working on, either

with yourself or or with someone else.

So, um, you know, you learning to let go that your way is the best way

and not assuming what the answers are is something that you can work on.

Learning to try new things rather than just sitting in your comfort

zone that you, you always sit in.

Getting comfortable with risk taking and making mistakes.

Uh, learning how to question properly, so, Often when people ask

questions, the questions can be, um, closed questions, for example.

So they're not really off, they're not really exploring in a curious way.

They're, they're leading and directing in their question even

though they think they're not.

Avoiding why questions, because that can often bring defensiveness in people.

If you, if you lead with, well, why have you done that?

Why do you do it that way?

So the types of questions and the, the nature of the questions is

something that you can learn and, and, you know, trial and error often.

You can learn how to listen.

So come from a point of listening to understand rather

than listening to be heard.

And we've talked before in previous episodes around the notion of active

listening and it, and actually most times when people have a conversation,

they're already playing through what's the next point I wanna make?

What's this I'm going to, what's the point I want to get across?

What's my next question?

And they're not really listening with all of their senses to

understand what's being said.

You can also learn how to reframe and refrain from judgment, because

often judgment can close down your curiosity if you are already assuming

or you think you know something.

So all of those are examples of things that you can be working on

and probably, you know, even leaders who might be great at that will

still be working on all those areas.

It's not something about you either have you don't.

These are things that you, you know, you are constantly striving to, to know

more about yourself and about others.

Yeah, and the point you make about the listening I think is really

important, because I think people can mistake curiosity for just being about

the questions, like the asking and the trying to find out, but you're not

actually going to find anything out if you don't genuinely and actively listen

to the responses that you're getting.

So I think that is a really important reminder that isn't just about the, you

know, I'm working out how I'm gonna go in and firing loads of questions at people.

It's actually about really trying to uncover kind of evidence and feedback and

genuinely listen to what people are saying or demonstrating cuz they might not be

saying it to you and their actions might be demonstrating something very different.

It's completely giving, giving that space.

So if you are in a conversation with someone, and in this is something that

we do from a coaching perspective, we don't actually talk a lot as coaches.

We, we stay silent and we observe and we let people fill the silence.

And in that silence often that's when the new thoughts and, and the new ideas can

come from, rather than me trying to direct a conversation in a, in a particular way.

And so I think that's the, the same can be true in, in a leadership setting.

Having that silence, allowing people to that what they say first might

not be the, the real thinking.

They might need to start to talk it through.

And then, then new, new exploratory ideas will, will come through.

But it's not just about that, that interpersonal conversations either

as a leader, it could be what are you, you know, going through maybe

the experience that your customers or your staff go through and learning

or, or rather, Witnessing how they see things by, by experiencing it

yourself, that can be a curiosity because then, then you can be understanding,

well, what's happening here?

What, what's the reason that this happens?

What's the benefit of this happening?

Blah, blah, blah.

Um, it could be observing things, just sitting and looking at evidence

that comes through and reports.

So it's not just about um, physical conversation, I suppose.

Yeah, and I, I think that's interesting, isn't it?

Cause maybe that's a reframe for people who are not as comfortable with being

a curious leader, that maybe it's more about being a leader who learns.

Yeah.

Yeah.

about the things that are important to, um, them and their

organization and their stakeholders, and some of that will be about that

self-development piece in the truest sense of learning as well, won't it?

That none of us are the finished article when it comes to being a leader.

So actually part of being curious and being a leader who learns might be about

developing skills and experiences that you maybe don't have yet, or you might

be looking at other organizations and going and learning from them, shadowing

people you know through, like you say, through your coaching and mentoring.

So I think there are quite a lot of aspects to that curiosity as a leader

and from the conversation that we are having it, I think it does show that they,

they're things that you can start to do.

So if you feel like you're not naturally a curious person, that doesn't mean

that you can't be a curious leader.

There's lots of things that you put in place to, to enable that and, and have a

different mindset about it, is brilliant.

I wanted to move this into a slightly different space in this part of the

conversation, because I just, Wanted to pose the question, um, or the situation,

I guess, which is what happens if you have lost that desire to be curious?

So as a leader, maybe you see it as a core skill, as we've talked about, to be

curious for some reason that curiosity doesn't seem to be there anymore.

Is it a sign or symptom of something bigger?

bigger Like how do you work through being in that headspace as leader?

Because I do think that happens and I definitely have been in that position

myself, and I've worked with other leaders who I've almost seen that happen

to, and, and it's all it, it has always felt like it is a sign or symptom,

something else, but I'd be really interested to hear your views on Lee.

So a leading question there that

I was, yeah,

it was me going, are you okay?

Rather than, how are you?

But the trouble is I know that if you don't agree with me, that you'll be very

comfortable in challenging me, cuz we have a very psychologically safe relationship.

Um, so yeah, I, it links to passion for what you are doing for, for me,

I think if you get into that space where you, and you might not see it

as I've lost curiosity, you might be saying, oh, it feels like Groundhog Day

and I'm always doing the same stuff.

Um, if you feel you are being passive and not being active in the

way that you are, you are leading.

If you feel like you are a bit of a bystander.

For me, they're all signs that you are checking out.

And we've, we've talked about that, that in previous episodes before, haven't we?

Um, and if you're checking out, I, I definitely think your curiosity

will be impacted because you're not, you're just not as invested in the

outcome as you would be otherwise.

So, um, yeah, I do think that's something that you need to be aware of.

One of, one of my signs actually was, um, I wasn't excited or curious about

the future in one of my organizations.

So I, I didn't see myself being a part of it.

Um, and so I found it really hard to connect and that that curiosity

absolutely wasn't there because I just didn't think that it was my future.

Um, and so that was a big warning sign for me and I think if you

are an engaged and curious leader, you do need that forward focus.

If you are someone that's, that's just working in the here and now,

or constantly looking back and trying to analyze what's happened,

Rather than that need to look ahead.

I think you bring all kinds of bias into your thinking.

You kind of get entrenched, don't you, into, into this space and the

growth and the learning isn't there.

So yeah, I, I think, I think it can be really dangerous for yourself

and for your organization if you get into that space where just are not.

Yeah, you might not see it as I've, I've lost my curiosity,

but, but the spark's gone somehow.

Yeah.

And it's interesting, isn't it, to think about your warning signs, like if you

recognize them in yourselves other people, or if others recognize them in you.

So I think that's, you've got a lot of insight that you can tell.

Like that was a point in my career when I had lost that curiosity because of this.

And I guess, yeah, if I reflect on my own situation, Of the times when

I feel like I've lost my curiosity or my spark or motivation, isn't it?

It's about being motivated to do what you do is probably when

I've almost done the opposite.

So rather than not seeing myself as part of the future, it's been about almost

feeling, feeling sad at the loss of something in the past, as in like when,

when it used to be like this, that's when it felt good here and I enjoyed it and,

and almost getting a bit stuck on what it used to be like in the good old days.

Um, so I guess, like you say, not being focused on the future, but with that

slightly different, different reflection.

So I think maybe it is important for leaders to have an opportunity to

reflect on whether there's been periods in their career where they have lost

that curiosity, that motivation that passion, whatever we want to call it.

Um, just so that they can be aware of that should that happen into the future.

We, when we all have, uh, Down days, don't we?

You know, I'm not expecting everyone to come skipping into

work every day singing Kumbaya.

Full of curiosity?

Yeah.

There are days as, as an introvert, I need to need time to kind of reflect

and retract myself and have that space to think and, and all of that.

Um, you know, women, um, Just, just going through their, their

monthly cycle of life have different energy levels and motivation.

So all of those things can play into how your curiosity and how you

might be feeling about a situation can, can ebb and flow o over time.

I think the, the, the issue and the warning sign is when that's

sustained over a longer period.

Yeah, I, I would agree with you.

When you're in a constant space where it feels like that's lacking, then that's

probably the time to reconsider what

And, and,

what your options are.

and you know, when I said like, one of my signs was, so I wasn't

excited or curious about the future.

My, my main task at the time was helping an organization to

develop its future strategy.

I mean, like,

Yeah.

if I couldn't get excited by it.

Woo.

Alarms.

So, um, we are getting to that point in the conversation where we probably

should be thinking about wrapping up and we've covered quite a lot, I think,

in the conversation and it's been yeah, more of an exploration maybe rather than,

um, uh, some the way some of our normal episodes go, but we always like a how to.

And you touched on, um, some really great advice in the question about, uh, if

you can learn to be curious, but my, um, how to for this episode is, uh, how do

you demonstrate curiosity as a leader?

So what would your top tips be.

So the questions and the types of questions are, are really important.

Thinking about how you ask questions and then how you listen to understand

those, those, I think if you're gonna work on any skill out of anything,

those are the two to, to really work on that will benefit your leadership,

you know, totally across the board.

So, so that would be my first point.

I think my second point to that is then around, and we haven't really touched on,

on this in the conversation, but um, it's about who you surround yourself with.

And we've talked before around, um, making sure you have a support network

and people that aren't just yes peoples that they're not confirming your biases

and all of that kind of stuff, but I think your curiosity comes the more

diverse the people are around you and the thinking of the people around you and

the, there's evidence that says obviously the, the wider your network of people,

the more diverse it's likely to be.

Particularly those you don't interact with a lot, because if you're not interacting

with them a lot, They're not necessarily gonna be aligned to your way of thinking

or seeing things in the same way as you.

So when you do then interact with them, they can bring stuff that's fresh,

um, fresh thinking into a situation.

So I think working on where your relationships lie, how diverse

that network is, and all of that I think will really help you as well.

And we've talked about that, learned behavior.

If you see people that are being inquisitive, you are

more likely to be inquisitive.

So I think that would be my third thing to work on from a leadership point

I love it.

And I, I have nothing extra to add cuz it's like you've read my own notes.

So, um, so I, I was all for the questioning and the active listening.

I guess the only addition I would say there, which we did mention in the

conversation, is don't be defensive.

I mean, we talked about not, not creating a defensiveness in others, but I also

think for you to be curious, you have to be open, um, and, and not be defensive.

And I think again, about that role modeling, it's encouraging others to be

inquisitive and, and curious, isn't it?

So it's, it's how do you make that okay in your team and your

organization, which is totally about, um, culture and psychological

safety and that role modeling.

And we've done episodes on psychological safety and culture and strategy.

So I would definitely recommend if you haven't listened to

them, go in to have a listen to.

those So thank you, Lee.

Thank you for allowing me to be curious in this conversation and

find out more about your thoughts around, um, curiosity and leadership.

Um, I feel a bit weird that it's like the end of episode 10,

which is the end of this series.

know there's gonna be a sneaky bonus though,

isn't

Oh, there's always a sneaky bonus with us.

We can't keep away.

So yes, keep your ears and eyes peeled for the sneaky bonus edition

that will land at some point.

Um, I really hope people have found this episode and this series useful.

So please do leave a rating, review, get in touch with us.

If there's anything that we've talked about that you are curious about or

you want us to cover, um, in future episodes, I, um, well, we will be back.

We will be back for, um, another podcast series, but we are also, um, completely

active over in our substack community.

So that's the place to go if you're gonna miss us between series.

Yeah, we, we've got the book club to come.

We're also doing private recordings over on substack so ask us anything

sessions you can submit your questions on all things leadership or anything.

Actually, happy to answer anything if you want some recipe

ideas, book recommendations.

What we watched on tv?

Yeah.

Any, anything about detective programs or books?

Uh, vinyl.

It appears Curiosity Killed the Cat.

That was a reference I didn't think was coming in this episode.

Um, so yeah, pretty much ask us anything you like.

We're gonna be open-minded enough, we won't be defensive.

Please don't judge us.

All the learnings from how to take the lead.

So, um, on that note, uh, get out there and take the lead until next time.