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The state of leadership - 2023 edition
Episode 1 • 30th November 2023 • How to Take the Lead • Lee Griffith and Carrie-Ann Wade
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We are back with series 4. And as we're getting to the end of the year we thought it would be the perfect time to check-in on the state of leadership.

We last did this in 2022, so we wanted to see what had changed, what stayed the same and what we think it all means for next year.

In this episode we discuss:

  • what we both got up to over the summer, including some side-hustle / sister / cousin podcasts that may have been launched!
  • how to show up in your organisation when things are troubled globally
  • politics, conference season, Laura Kuenssberg's infamous word clouds and what organisations could learn from them
  • World Cup leadership highs and lows
  • what's changed since the Modern Leaders' report was published in 2022
  • what leaders are choosing to speak up about and what they're ignoring still
  • areas and skills that leaders should focus on including values-driven, prioritising wellbeing, having an adaptable approach
  • our predictions for 2024 and what will be influencing leadership.

Resources and helpful links

About How to Take the Lead

How to Take the Lead is a show exploring all things leadership.

Every episode we explore a different part of life as a leader, questioning everything we've ever learnt and sharing a few of our own stories along the way.

If you want to learn how to do leadership your own way, join hosts Lee Griffith and Carrie-Ann Wade as they debunk myths, tackle stereotypes and generally put the leadership world to rights.

Get involved

If you enjoyed this episode why not subscribe to the podcast. We would love it if you left us a rating or review and feel free to share the link to this episode with anyone else you think would find it interesting.

If you want to watch this episode, subscribe to our YouTube channel to make sure you don't miss out.

And you can be a part of our Substack community, where you can get extra bonus goodies, network with a community of leaders and get direct access to us both.

We're also over on Instagram for more behind the scenes, news and views.

Plus if you want to work with us to challenge and change leadership in your organisation get in touch by dropping us an email howtotakethelead@gmail.com or DM us on the socials.

Transcripts

Lee Griffith:

Yes, yes, yes, I think we, if one has been

Lee Griffith:

unfaithful, we have both done it cancels it out, doesn't it? I

Lee Griffith:

don't have an answer.

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: I sorry. I left that question directly for you.

Lee Griffith:

I was it was more of a rhetorical question and then I

Lee Griffith:

don't think any of us have the answer.

Lee Griffith:

Welcome to How to Take the Lead, the podcast where

Lee Griffith:

we challenge the myths and stereotypes of what it means to

Lee Griffith:

be a leader today, and help you to succeed in post without

Lee Griffith:

compromise. I'm Lee Griffith.

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: And I'm Carrie Ann Wade. And together we will

Lee Griffith:

be your guide question everything we've ever learned

Lee Griffith:

about leadership, sharing our experiences along the way, and

Lee Griffith:

inspiring you to make a real impact in your role. Visit

Lee Griffith:

house,

Lee Griffith:

take the lead.com For show notes past episodes and

Lee Griffith:

join our community enjoy

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: this episode.

Lee Griffith:

So we're back hello. Another serious series

Lee Griffith:

four. We've made it. I've missed this. I feel slightly under

Lee Griffith:

prepared and quite rusty.

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: Yes, Rusty is the word I receive and been a

Lee Griffith:

bit rusty. It feels like ages since we've done a how to take

Lee Griffith:

the lead series. So I'm very excited to be back the series

Lee Griffith:

for and having these regular chats with you. It feels like

Lee Griffith:

I've missed out on my therapy. Yes, yeah. So

Lee Griffith:

housekeeping stuff. Not much has changed, I

Lee Griffith:

don't think so. If you're new, you've just found us. Remember

Lee Griffith:

to hit the Follow button so that you get all the future episodes,

Lee Griffith:

we've got 10 episodes planned for series four. So lots of good

Lee Griffith:

things we're going to be covering. We're on YouTube

Lee Griffith:

again, this series so hello to people who are who are watching.

Lee Griffith:

And again, hit subscribe, follow, can't keep up with all

Lee Griffith:

these buttons in which is follow which is a scribe. So just do

Lee Griffith:

whatever it tells you on the app, you're listening or

Lee Griffith:

watching in. And I'm sure that will serve you.

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: Absolutely, and we're still over on substack. We

Lee Griffith:

made a few changes. We've got some different content on the go

Lee Griffith:

over there. So do join in that community if you fancy hearing

Lee Griffith:

more outside of the episodes from us, but also joining in the

Lee Griffith:

conversation and catching up with some like minded leaders

Lee Griffith:

over in that space. Yeah,

Lee Griffith:

it's a nice little It feels like we're almost like

Lee Griffith:

back mid 90s No, not not 90s mid noughties when everyone was on

Lee Griffith:

like the blog roll the bloggers. That's that's the sub stratified

Lee Griffith:

something. Yeah.

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: I was gonna say back in the 90s. Gosh, thrown us

Lee Griffith:

back quite far. Now. We don't need to get back into the

Lee Griffith:

vintage retro chat.

Lee Griffith:

Although I'm wearing my labyrinth t shirt, so

Lee Griffith:

that is proper vintage impressed

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: if you've got a t shirt, I've gotten jumper, I'm

Lee Griffith:

checking in on the autumnal vibe so that I'm not sure I quite

Lee Griffith:

need them today.

Lee Griffith:

We covered all season. The podcast for horse

Lee Griffith:

lovers. So what's been happening we finished the last series in

Lee Griffith:

June. So it's been a couple of months what's what's been going

Lee Griffith:

on in carry on land,

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: what's been going on in carry on. And

Lee Griffith:

obviously the day job is still still going on lots happening in

Lee Griffith:

that space. Absolutely. And lots of leadership lessons, I'm sure

Lee Griffith:

that will come into future episodes in this series, I

Lee Griffith:

launched behind the bar diary of comms director, which is the

Lee Griffith:

other. I feel like I'm cheating on us the other podcast, which

Lee Griffith:

has been brilliant interviewed some fabulous communications

Lee Griffith:

leaders over there with a particular focus on how to

Lee Griffith:

attract new talent into our profession as communicators, and

Lee Griffith:

how to increase diversity. So again, there might be some

Lee Griffith:

common themes across the two. And

Lee Griffith:

it's been I have to say, I've been listening,

Lee Griffith:

even though I've stepped away from my day to day comms job.

Lee Griffith:

And it still if you work in the field of communications, and if

Lee Griffith:

you are really invested in wanting to progress in your

Lee Griffith:

career, I do highly recommend you give that one a listen,

Lee Griffith:

because I think you've got some great people who've kind of been

Lee Griffith:

working at different levels actually, not just senior

Lee Griffith:

people. You've met people at different levels that you talk

Lee Griffith:

to about their career journeys. And also how you how you kind of

Lee Griffith:

change the status quo. So it does feel very true to the

Lee Griffith:

handset leap brand as well.

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: I'm glad that I'm glad there's some crossover

Lee Griffith:

and it's not just this weird, yeah, weird other podcast that

Lee Griffith:

I'm cheating on us with. So yeah, and I've been really keen

Lee Griffith:

not just to interview and talk to people who are already in

Lee Griffith:

senior leadership positions with my bunny ears because I do

Lee Griffith:

believe you can lead in lots of different ways. So it's been

Lee Griffith:

really nice to talk to people who are much earlier on in their

Lee Griffith:

careers but already demonstrating that kind of

Lee Griffith:

Leadership and an aspiration for the future, which has been

Lee Griffith:

brilliant. And then I'm currently running my Thrive

Lee Griffith:

program. So I'm working with some brilliant and comms

Lee Griffith:

professionals. They're helping them to get more comfy in terms

Lee Griffith:

of what they want next for for their careers and stepping up

Lee Griffith:

and thriving as comms professionals. So yeah, I've

Lee Griffith:

been lots going on. And but I've missed this. So I'm glad to be

Lee Griffith:

back. And they're talking of being a podcast cheat Lee, I

Lee Griffith:

think. Other stuff going on with you now. Yes,

Lee Griffith:

yes, yes, I think we've if one has been

Lee Griffith:

unfaithful, we have both done. It.

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: cancels it out, doesn't it?

Lee Griffith:

Yes. So I've I've also launched a second podcast

Lee Griffith:

called leaders with impact. And I suppose it feels I call it

Lee Griffith:

almost like the cousin to how to take the lead. Because, for me,

Lee Griffith:

it feels like that is the podcast where I prove it's

Lee Griffith:

possible that you can do things differently. We talk a lot on

Lee Griffith:

this podcast about our own challenges and experiences and

Lee Griffith:

stories. And we call out the bad behaviors that we say. But we

Lee Griffith:

also talk a lot about how can we take action and show that

Lee Griffith:

there's something different and I'm hoping that's what I'm

Lee Griffith:

starting to do with with that other podcast. So it's, it's

Lee Griffith:

built into the portfolio rather than taking away from what we

Lee Griffith:

talked about? I have to say,

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: honestly, hooked after the first episode,

Lee Griffith:

and after the first guest, even totally coming away with loads

Lee Griffith:

of inspiration already. I think I've been quoting it to people

Lee Griffith:

at work as well. A few of the comments from, from your first

Lee Griffith:

interview with Paul, or yes, just making sure I've got his

Lee Griffith:

name, right. And it was just brilliant. And I've been

Lee Griffith:

quoting, next practice, not best practice and all sorts of other

Lee Griffith:

things. So yeah, already hooked. So again, of course, we'd love

Lee Griffith:

each other's podcast, it would be weird if we didn't but

Lee Griffith:

definitely take a listen. Listen, and that yeah, cousin of

Lee Griffith:

how to take the lead lots of lots more there for, for leaders

Lee Griffith:

to listen to. Absolutely. So congrats on the

Lee Griffith:

thank you and to you too. But we are still very

Lee Griffith:

much have to take the lead in with this is still our kind of

Lee Griffith:

first firstborn baby isn't

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: it and actually how exciting that over the

Lee Griffith:

summer, we have been working with some clients. So we've

Lee Griffith:

actually been collaborating with each other outside of the

Lee Griffith:

podcast in the how to take the lead space, which has been

Lee Griffith:

brilliant. So doing some benchmarking and researcher in

Lee Griffith:

in the leadership space. And also, we've got a workshop on

Lee Griffith:

the horizon. So very excited. Yeah, it's been nice to to, I

Lee Griffith:

suppose do things outside of doing the podcast and just take

Lee Griffith:

that collaboration a little bit further, and, but still being

Lee Griffith:

true to the conversations about leadership and how to lead

Lee Griffith:

differently and showing up where leadership perhaps isn't

Lee Griffith:

working. So that feels very consistent. Absolutely. And I

Lee Griffith:

have to say, as much as we might have been a little bit

Lee Griffith:

unfaithful with our own new podcast launches, I still feel

Lee Griffith:

like we're very much together, given that we've been working

Lee Griffith:

and collaborating outside of the podcast, so hopefully only good

Lee Griffith:

things to come.

Lee Griffith:

Yes, indeed, we've got a lot coming up this series.

Lee Griffith:

And today's episode is, I suppose a bit of a check in on

Lee Griffith:

what's been happening since we last spoke, what's been

Lee Griffith:

happening leadership world, where we think things are gonna

Lee Griffith:

go in 2024, and all of that kind of stuff. And then from next

Lee Griffith:

week, we'll get into the meat of the discussions with with some

Lee Griffith:

more focused topics. And so anything else from you in terms

Lee Griffith:

of what you've been up to since June if

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: we, I mean, it was pretty busy. Yeah, I mean,

Lee Griffith:

otherwise, just life and I might have squashed a little bit of

Lee Griffith:

sleep in there. Somewhere along the way. How about you? Yeah,

Lee Griffith:

it's been pretty much the same here. I mean, my

Lee Griffith:

my, if anyone's followed me on social media, you will have

Lee Griffith:

realized that I disappeared for a little while because I was in

Lee Griffith:

exam hell. Taking the next stage of my coaching accreditation

Lee Griffith:

with the international coaching Federation, which thankfully, I

Lee Griffith:

passed, because there's no way on earth I was going to be

Lee Griffith:

resistant. I got my little badge in the post yesterday. So I'm on

Lee Griffith:

your socials. Yes. So that was that felt like a big, I suppose

Lee Griffith:

from a professional point of view. And we talk a lot about

Lee Griffith:

CPD and continuing to develop in in your leadership role,

Lee Griffith:

whatever that might be. And coaching is one of those worlds

Lee Griffith:

where it's not professionally kind of regulated anywhere.

Lee Griffith:

There are professional bodies, but you don't have to. Unlike

Lee Griffith:

other professions, you don't have to be a member to but it's

Lee Griffith:

really important for me from a point of view from a

Lee Griffith:

demonstrating that I'm actually a coach and not one of these

Lee Griffith:

fake coaches that say they can make you millions that are seem

Lee Griffith:

to appear online. I want to draw that distinction.

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: If you are one of those, I think I'd be doing

Lee Griffith:

lots of different things in my life right now cuz I'd be hoping

Lee Griffith:

that you didn't coach me into my millionaire lifestyle?

Lee Griffith:

Well, I think that's the whole point. They

Lee Griffith:

That's the promise that they take your money, and then you

Lee Griffith:

don't, don't go anywhere. So I say it's been important to me to

Lee Griffith:

continue even though I've changed my career path, since I

Lee Griffith:

left the corporate world, and that I still continue with my

Lee Griffith:

development and stuff. So that's been a big focus for me over the

Lee Griffith:

summer, as well as my client work and podcast and all that

Lee Griffith:

kind of stuff. But there has been lots happening in the

Lee Griffith:

world. I suppose. We need to acknowledge the the tricky,

Lee Griffith:

you're more than tricky situation. But you know, the

Lee Griffith:

troubles that there are at the moment, the war still ongoing in

Lee Griffith:

the Ukraine, the issue with Israel and Gaza. It's felt

Lee Griffith:

pretty heavy for for summer period. And I know, people I

Lee Griffith:

talk to online leaders I speak to a lot of people are

Lee Griffith:

questioning how they should be showing up and responded in

Lee Griffith:

times like this.

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: Yeah. And it would be remiss of us to record

Lee Griffith:

this episode and not mention it. And like you say, yeah, the fact

Lee Griffith:

that it feels hard to describe it in an appropriate way. We

Lee Griffith:

started with tricking, and I know, it's building tickets, you

Lee Griffith:

know, absolutely, you know, awful scenario that's happening.

Lee Griffith:

Yeah, not just in Israel and Gaza, but in Ukraine. And I

Lee Griffith:

think that is what proves problematic sometimes for

Lee Griffith:

leaders to know how to pitch their communications, and they

Lee Griffith:

start asking themselves and their leadership teams the

Lee Griffith:

questions around, do we acknowledge it, but if we

Lee Griffith:

acknowledge it, but we're not knowledgeable about it? What

Lee Griffith:

does that look like? What support are we offering to

Lee Griffith:

people who might need it? I'll be able to do that. Is it

Lee Griffith:

appropriate to not say anything? And I think that does cause a,

Lee Griffith:

you know, a lot of what I was going to use the word conflict,

Lee Griffith:

which seems really inappropriate to use in this scenario, but a

Lee Griffith:

lot of inner turmoil. What's the what's the right thing to do

Lee Griffith:

here? And if I'm honest, I don't think there is a right thing to

Lee Griffith:

do. I think it has to be a judgment call for sure. And

Lee Griffith:

interestingly, in the space that I operate in with cat's pajamas

Lee Griffith:

as a small business, I've also seen come up there a lot small

Lee Griffith:

business owners said, is it the right thing to still be out

Lee Griffith:

there trying to promote my business, when this is going on?

Lee Griffith:

And I guess there is something about trying to strike that

Lee Griffith:

balance, if it's at all possible of recognizing the impact of

Lee Griffith:

these situations on on people and being compassionate about

Lee Griffith:

that, and acknowledging that that's happening in the world,

Lee Griffith:

whilst also recognizing that, sadly, life everywhere else

Lee Griffith:

continues. And you have to find a way through that. I think it

Lee Griffith:

definitely is a challenge for people. I don't know what your

Lee Griffith:

thoughts are? Well, I

Lee Griffith:

think it's not necessarily a direct comparison.

Lee Griffith:

But I think often, you know, large organizations, and

Lee Griffith:

particularly those who might be public facing or public sector,

Lee Griffith:

where they are serving the public, often have that turmoil,

Lee Griffith:

because they will be seeing the but they'll be delivering the

Lee Griffith:

best and the worst in the service. And some people will be

Lee Griffith:

having really, really poor, shitty experiences with an

Lee Griffith:

organization. And we'll find it really distasteful when they

Lee Griffith:

then see said organization, celebrating its staff or saying

Lee Griffith:

something good that's happening and, and all that kind of stuff,

Lee Griffith:

because that's not been their experience. But then, you know,

Lee Griffith:

you've also got 1000s of staff who need to be motivated, or,

Lee Griffith:

you know, there'll be as many people having a great experience

Lee Griffith:

of the service that's been provided by it. So there's

Lee Griffith:

always going to be that push and pull and that tension between

Lee Griffith:

how people are going to react to the stuff that you do. I think

Lee Griffith:

as a leader, it's about how are you showing up with that

Lee Griffith:

integrity with that acknowledgement? And, but also

Lee Griffith:

be mindful that you can't respond to everything and I

Lee Griffith:

think this particular issue of the last last couple of months,

Lee Griffith:

there's there's been a lot of talk about what's what's the

Lee Griffith:

mental toll that it's taken, how is it affecting people's mental

Lee Griffith:

well, being, just seeing all that news and in hearing the

Lee Griffith:

stories and whatnot, and sometimes the right thing is to

Lee Griffith:

say, I need to step away and it's not for me to comment on

Lee Griffith:

but I suppose as a leader, you need to be asking yourself some

Lee Griffith:

key questions, don't you is You know, is this issue impacting

Lee Griffith:

their business? Is it directly affecting my staff, my

Lee Griffith:

stakeholders or the people that I serve? And how does it align

Lee Griffith:

with what I stand for? Because you know, you're you're on a

Lee Griffith:

platform saying you stand for x, and then you don't comment when

Lee Griffith:

something happens that's directly related, then you you

Lee Griffith:

know, that integrity gap is there, isn't it? So I think

Lee Griffith:

those are the markers and things you should be sent to check in

Lee Griffith:

and check them your network. Yeah,

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: absolutely. And that point about what's

Lee Griffith:

important to your stakeholders is one to listen to, isn't it?

Lee Griffith:

And I think it's interesting, you mentioned that, particularly

Lee Griffith:

in public sector dynamic where actually, you know, I think

Lee Griffith:

there's a sense of remaining apolitical, as it were, when

Lee Griffith:

particularly when you work in the public sector field. And

Lee Griffith:

actually, sometimes that can also add a different dynamic to

Lee Griffith:

should we be commenting on this because it feels hugely

Lee Griffith:

political, I think sometimes, then as leaders, you have to

Lee Griffith:

just be really thoughtful about how you communicate things. So

Lee Griffith:

in my organization, we have got staff whose families are

Lee Griffith:

impacted as us our communities by the situation that's

Lee Griffith:

happening in Israel and Gaza. And we had the same thing with

Lee Griffith:

Ukraine and Russia. And it's very easy, I think, sometimes to

Lee Griffith:

get pulled into the narrative that's playing out in the media.

Lee Griffith:

And an example I would give would be in the situation around

Lee Griffith:

Ukraine and Russia, our organization felt it was the

Lee Griffith:

right thing to do to acknowledge that and demonstrate what

Lee Griffith:

support was on offer for people in our organization who were

Lee Griffith:

impacted. And, and initially, the whole focus of that was

Lee Griffith:

about Ukraine. And we had to say, Well, hang on a minute,

Lee Griffith:

we'll have people who work here and who live in our communities

Lee Griffith:

who are a Russian descent and heritage. So actually, we need

Lee Griffith:

to acknowledge that in a thoughtful and compassionate way

Lee Griffith:

as well. So I do think there's so much nuance in it. But I

Lee Griffith:

absolutely agree with your point that it's about acting with

Lee Griffith:

integrity, isn't it? And understanding what's the impact

Lee Griffith:

on your organization and your stakeholders, and then trying to

Lee Griffith:

make an informed decision from there? Yeah. And

Lee Griffith:

sometimes showing up and giving a response might

Lee Griffith:

be that you are saying and doing something very specific to the

Lee Griffith:

to the situation, but sometimes it might be, I'm not the best

Lee Griffith:

person, but I'm going to direct you to better places that are

Lee Griffith:

resourced to help you cope with this. And that's fine to do that

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: fine. paste into other places, because you

Lee Griffith:

can't be expected to be the expert in everything. And

Lee Griffith:

actually, it would be very disingenuous to try to be so

Lee Griffith:

actually, sometimes the answer is acknowledge it that there is

Lee Griffith:

a situation happening, that it's having an impact. And here's the

Lee Griffith:

place for people to go if they want. They want to know more,

Lee Griffith:

find out more.

Lee Griffith:

So what else has been going on? I mean, politics

Lee Griffith:

we often touch on that it's been political conferences, and oh, I

Lee Griffith:

was gonna

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: call it political silly season. It

Lee Griffith:

hasn't it just can I just say up front, one of the things I've

Lee Griffith:

absolutely been loving about a conference season has been on

Lee Griffith:

Laura keansburg on she Saturdays or Sundays, I can never

Lee Griffith:

remember. Sunday, the word clouds presenting the word

Lee Griffith:

clouds back to the leaders have, we asked this many people what

Lee Griffith:

they thought of you as a leader. And here are the words that they

Lee Griffith:

honestly see in people's reactions, when quite a lot of

Lee Griffith:

them have just, I think on Rishi Sunak is my favorite was massive

Lee Griffith:

from rich,

Lee Griffith:

honestly. So that's been a delight for me. I

Lee Griffith:

wonder how many organizations though do exercises like that of

Lee Griffith:

their leaders to tap in? I know that people do stuff, surveys

Lee Griffith:

and blah, blah, blah. But how much? Are they really tapping

Lee Griffith:

into what people think about them? And understand? That'd be

Lee Griffith:

quite an interesting exercise?

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: And is there a way to do the 360 degree

Lee Griffith:

feedback like that, because I've been involved in 360 degree

Lee Griffith:

feedback on both sides. But it is still quite a small selection

Lee Griffith:

of stakeholders, and they get that feedback. But the word

Lee Griffith:

cloud thing I was like, honestly, I thought that was

Lee Griffith:

brilliant. So yeah, maybe there's a way to just think

Lee Griffith:

about how you can do that and capture opinion because huge

Lee Griffith:

amounts of learning, although I'm not sure how some of our

Lee Griffith:

political leaders are intended to learn from some of that, but

Lee Griffith:

learning how to respond to challenging feedback is probably

Lee Griffith:

also a good one.

Lee Griffith:

It's an interesting one, isn't it?

Lee Griffith:

Because it all depends on the lens in which you're viewing

Lee Griffith:

that information. So the fact that we see rich, really writ

Lee Griffith:

large as a negative thing is because we're looking at it

Lee Griffith:

through our lens of lately, but for him and for the

Lee Griffith:

Conservatives where they want to promote well for Northern that

Lee Griffith:

might well be exactly

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: what you're aiming for with his whole

Lee Griffith:

persona and how he's being perceived. And I know there's

Lee Griffith:

more than one pillar It's called party and I don't want to end up

Lee Griffith:

doing some Rishi bashing, but also the fact that his wife

Lee Griffith:

introduced him at his conference, I thought it was a

Lee Griffith:

bit random. I don't know why I just thought this is all a bit

Lee Griffith:

weird. And it got weirdly quite a lot of backlash online for

Lee Griffith:

like positioning her as the, here's my wife introducing me

Lee Griffith:

rather than being like, I've got this powerful woman in my life.

Lee Griffith:

He's supporting me. So it was just interesting to see again,

Lee Griffith:

but

Lee Griffith:

in America, in America, you think about the

Lee Griffith:

Obama campaign, and Michelle Obama, you know, would get up

Lee Griffith:

and hype up her husband before he came on stage as part of the

Lee Griffith:

campaign. But we all celebrated that so it's it's interesting. I

Lee Griffith:

don't know if there is a right or wrong answer to that. Maybe

Lee Griffith:

it's I didn't I didn't watch it personally. So I can't form a

Lee Griffith:

view but it was it was it style and approach rather than the

Lee Griffith:

actual act that might have been an issue? I don't know. I wonder

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: if it was done in approach and history. So

Lee Griffith:

forgetting that there's been a lot in the press in there about

Lee Griffith:

Rishi richness due to his wife and, you know, all of that kind

Lee Griffith:

of stuff. So yeah, it was it's just been Yeah, quite

Lee Griffith:

entertaining. And we've had Kier, Starmer, covered in

Lee Griffith:

glitter, glitter bond, in fact, conference. So there's been all

Lee Griffith:

sorts going on. And I guess I guess the bit that is of most

Lee Griffith:

interest to us is the way in which as leaders, those people

Lee Griffith:

are reacting to these situations rather than the situation

Lee Griffith:

themselves. So

Lee Griffith:

yeah, yeah. And I thought actually, we've we can

Lee Griffith:

all recognize situations in public townhall meetings or

Lee Griffith:

whatever, if you're in a leadership position, and you're

Lee Griffith:

doing things in public where yes, maybe you've not had a

Lee Griffith:

glitter bomb or someone stormed the stage. But we've I remember

Lee Griffith:

doing events and I've had protesters stand up and march

Lee Griffith:

around and and I thought he handled it pretty well.

Lee Griffith:

Actually, he didn't he stayed calm. He used it to kind of get

Lee Griffith:

into make his point of bridge back into his speech afterwards.

Lee Griffith:

I actually think the rolled up Sleeve Shirt worked for him as a

Lee Griffith:

look.

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: So we styled it out? I think so. A bit of extra

Lee Griffith:

sparkle. So yeah, so yeah, it has been interesting to see how

Lee Griffith:

everything's been playing out in that space, for sure. And

Lee Griffith:

the World Cup was the other thing that that

Lee Griffith:

happened, feels like an AEG ago. But that's that's been a really

Lee Griffith:

interesting.

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: So first of all, massive big up to the

Lee Griffith:

women's England football team and the leadership there because

Lee Griffith:

it feels like that had a massive, massive, massive

Lee Griffith:

impact. But all of these brilliant female power, leading

Lee Griffith:

women all overshadowed by what happened with the president of

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the Spanish FA? How did that play out? What a way to handle

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being criticized, just dig your heels in further news, to be

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honest, and say, I will not I will not resign, I didn't do

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anything wrong. Everybody needs to just get off their high horse

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about it. And I was like, Oh, my God, this is not the handling

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plan I would have offered to him.

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He was my leader. I mean, we've we've talked in

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previous episodes in previous series about, you know,

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sometimes an apology isn't the right, right way, because then

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you need to. So he definitely took that.

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Carrie-Ann Wade: And took that advice. Absolutely. So then see,

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without listening to the rest of

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it. Yeah. So I think that with the evidence

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writ large, and even if he for whatever reason to still felt he

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didn't do anything wrong, not picking up on the tone of the

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reaction. It wasn't enough itself quite poor. So anything

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else leadership wise, that's been happening that we've we've

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missed or would have been talking about if we were on air?

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Oh, my

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Carrie-Ann Wade: God, how how we've got lofty as the series is

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have gone on. And I think we've covered sport, we've covered

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politics we've covered well, politics is included in the

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talking about conflict that's happening across the world. But

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again, it's interested in how the things that that we talk

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about stick out because of some sort of negative reason, mostly

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men, we've managed to get a few positives out of, you know, pick

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up the women in the Women's World Cup and thinking about how

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Kier Starmer has responded to being glitter bombs, but in the

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main it's mostly, again, been the bad stuff that stuck out. It

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feels like

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Yeah, but is that true to life? I mean, there's

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the evidence isn't there? People complain more than they give

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positive feedback. So that is the thing that will stick on

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people's minds and And maybe we'll get on to this in a

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minute. But yeah, there is no, there does feel a sense to me

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that whilst there is it's that one step forward two steps back,

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that's how I'm feeling at the moment we've we've certain

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things, particularly in the leadership world, I can see

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progress in certain areas. We talked a bit about my my other

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podcast a bit earlier in the show, and that is absolutely me

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trying to prove it's possible to do things in a different way.

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And I've been able to talk to some great chief execs who are

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leading in this kind of modern, forward looking direction, but

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it's still hard, there's still a lot of things. And it's, it's

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that constant, like go further and longer, like a

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Carrie-Ann Wade: battle is, like having to keep pushing rather

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than it feeling like it's a more natural course of action. But we

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will get there, we will get there. And you're absolutely

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right, you've got the proof. You've talked to the proof that,

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um, that we have got leaders who are being more modern in their

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outlook, and more compassionate and acting with integrity and

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not being stuck in that old stereotype of leadership. So

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yeah, the more we see examples of that, the better, I think,

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for us the power we feel about the state of leadership today.

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So

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back in the beginning of series two, I think

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it was so that's like, 2022. Yeah. We did a review of

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leadership episode. And we're kind of in that territory with

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what we've been talking about already today. And we did it

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with the lens of a report that we'd done not that long ago, at

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the time around the modern leader. And we wanted to see how

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aligned it felt with what it was what was happening. And it feels

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like it's a good time as we enter series, four as we get to

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the end of 2023. And we look, look ahead to 2020. For that we

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revisit that a little bit, and maybe do it with a view of what

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does action taking look like? Because that's been really

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important to us. So we said, I went back in the archives.

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Carrie-Ann Wade: Now we've got archives and everything makes me

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feel really

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proper, does. Yep. So we said in that episode, that

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the role of leaders in speaking up on things that mattered was

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going to be something that was super important. And obviously,

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the latest trust reports that came out earlier this year still

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shows that that's something that really matters to employees,

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particularly the younger generation. We started this

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episode by talking about some of the challenges of leaders

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knowing what they should be saying about some of the stuff

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that's happening in the kind of current affairs arena at the

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moment. How well do you think organizations are stepping into

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that role of being advocate and spokesperson?

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Carrie-Ann Wade: I think in my own personal experience, it is

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it is happening? I'm not sure it's consistently happening. I

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would say my own reflections, not just in terms of like the

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organization that I work, and obviously I touch on work with

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lots of different organizations through my day job, but also,

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through the business. I think quite a lot of it is my

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perception is a lot of this is weirdly personality dependent.

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So if you have leaders in your organization whose personalities

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are more inclined to be empathetic, and compassionate

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and open and communicative, then I think it happens more

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naturally for your organization, I think where organizations have

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leaders whose personality type is maybe to perhaps be a bit

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more closed off to other people's views. Maybe, you know,

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my way, is the way and I'm not open to anything else. It feels

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like that's where it doesn't happen. And obviously in

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leadership teams, there's often a mix of all of that in the

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dynamic. And I guess it's about how much influence some of those

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voices have to be able to suggest that actually, this is

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an issue that we really need to be taken seriously. The other

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bit for me that I still think a lot of organizations are not

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doing enough of and we've talked about this loads, and I know

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it's something you're really passionate about it is that

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engagement piece, that listening and truly engaging. So actually,

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do organizations genuinely understand what is most

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important to their employees to their customer base to the

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people that use their services to their communities, in order

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to make some decisions and plan them or how they might speak up

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about those matters that count. So I still feel like there are

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organizations that are doing a bit guesswork in that space, and

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then maybe not quite hitting the mark. So that's my kind of

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overall protection of how things have been given, particularly

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this year. In my experience,

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I think that that wording consistent is is Yeah,

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It's spot on, really, because I think you do see it. But you

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see, it's, it's almost like one of those pick your own adventure

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books. So people are picking and choosing what they decide they

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speak out to, as well as the personality politics. And I say

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politics with a small p not the kind of national stuff that

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we've been talking about. But there's that thing, what would

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look popular if I talk about this versus not. And I think

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there still are too many instances of big issues that

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just aren't being tackled or being sidelined for something

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else. And we've spoken even in the last series of instances

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where the leadership of certain organizations or across the

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sector, should have done much better in speaking up on things

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that had happened, and just didn't. So I do think, but you

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say the point around listening and engaging. If they were if if

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they did that, and they really understood, then they would I

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think be talking about these things a lot more. So I do think

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there's a long, long way to go on that. But the appetite and

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the view of employees of communities, etc, is absolutely

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still that. They see their local leaders, their local business

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leaders, their local organization, being the

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mouthpiece that can make change happen. So you've got really

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important responsibility. And

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Carrie-Ann Wade: I think that voice potentially is getting

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stronger, isn't it that expectation? Actually, I feel

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like is getting stronger from those people that are

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stakeholders to your organization? Actually, having

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those high expectations of you that definitely hasn't dwindled.

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In fact, I think that's grown. I guess it's now about really

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seeing how leaders and organizations are responding to

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that. And that will be you know, that's the proof in the pudding

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really, isn't it? I suppose, like, are people, like you say,

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genuinely listening and engaging with that groundswell of voice?

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Or not? And I think there are interests in these sectors that

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do that really well. So if I think about the charitable

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sector, for example, I think they have to do that. Because

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actually, the models in which they they operate as a business

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relies on that really heavy level of engagement and people

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making donations and proving that they've made a difference

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and had a voice. And and I don't know whether some of that

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happens to be more aligned with maybe a stronger sense of

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purpose about what your organization and your strategy

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is about. But I do see that may be happening a bit more in that

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sector, perhaps compared to others. So yeah, interesting.

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Yeah.

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So the report also, we talked about some of

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the skills that we thought that leaders needed to lean into more

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in that kind of future look, space. So it was being values

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driven, prioritizing their well being and being adaptable. Do

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they still feel relevant? And again, do we think we've seen

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much progress in those areas?

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Carrie-Ann Wade: I do think they feel relevant still, actually.

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And I think probably what's playing out in society

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particularly means the sort of well, being elements still feels

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really strong? I guess, when we did the research report, and we

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asked people, we were sort of in that pandemic II space still

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want me so I felt like wellbeing probably had a huge focus then,

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because of that impact. But actually, what we've seen is not

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the small things happening in the world, some of which we've

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talked about today, but you know, cost of living, you know,

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the, the current affairs stuff that we've talked about play

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out, and I think they are all having an impact on people as

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human beings. So for me, I feel like the well being thing is

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still really important. And I'm interested in the adaptability

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bit and probably from an employee point of view, maybe

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more so than, than other stakeholders, because it's been

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quite interesting that we had a period where leaders and

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organizations were talking about being hugely adaptable and

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flexible in terms of ways of working with leading ways of

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operating in their business in their organization, as a direct

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result of the pandemic, absolutely changing everything

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and I think I've been quite surprised this year in

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particular, at seeing a bit of a shift back to those pre

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pandemic, ways of operating, which feel less flexible and

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less adaptable. And me being a bit more into that space of if I

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can't see you, I don't know if you're really doing what you're

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supposed to be doing. So I'm intrigued to know why

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potentially, I mean, I don't I'm just saying this. I don't think

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I've got the evidence to back this up. But potentially, is

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that a lack of trust between leaders and their wider

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organization? And so, like, what's the dynamic that's made

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that happen, because it felt like actually, people were

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telling us as leaders that we want that flexibility, we want

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to be able to juggle life demands with work demands, we

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wanted to do a really good job and deliver. But we'd really

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like you to give us that level of like flex and help be

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adaptable as a leader to those changing dynamics in your

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organization. And it does feel to me like that's taken some

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steps back and shifted again.

Lee Griffith:

Yeah, yeah, I completely agree with that. And

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I wrote down trust as you were talking, because I think that is

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the I don't think not in the main. And again, I've spoken to

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people where they absolutely are, and have been pre pandemic

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of that mindset of, you need to let people work in the

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conditions that you're going to get the best out of them. But

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there are a lot of organizations that have reverted back to if

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they're not in the office and not doing the work I need them

Lee Griffith:

to do. And it does feel, yeah, it just it does feel like we're

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going backwards. But then also, I'm noticing that the I suppose

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it's this generational gap is widening, because the companies

Lee Griffith:

are trying to get more people back into the office, even those

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that were really tech driven and progressive and have zoom being

Lee Griffith:

an example. You know, the irony, where they've said, we want we

Lee Griffith:

want people start coming back in. But the workers aren't so

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keen, you know, people are starting to look for new

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opportunities. They're trying to seek out organizations that will

Lee Griffith:

suit their lifestyle. So that values alignment piece is being

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even more important. I think people are voting with their

Lee Griffith:

feet a little bit more. And I wonder, as we go forward in

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2020, for what that's going to look like for organizations that

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some of whom are already struggling to recruit in certain

Lee Griffith:

areas. I don't see the benefit of them being, you know, more

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restrictive. Yeah,

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: absolutely. And I think it's interesting, you're

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saying about that values alignment piece. And I know, the

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research report said values driven was key in terms of what

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people were looking for, from from leadership, and definitely

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through the mentoring that I do. More and more that question is

Lee Griffith:

coming up for people around, do my values feel aligned with the

Lee Griffith:

values of my organization, and more and more, I think their

Lee Griffith:

responses becoming uncomfortable for people and you know, as

Lee Griffith:

individuals that can be challenging because people need

Lee Griffith:

to work and need to pay their bills. And it's not always as

Lee Griffith:

easy, as we've talked about in previous episodes is going okay,

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your values don't align don't work there anymore. So sometimes

Lee Griffith:

it's about you know, what, what are the impacts, you can have to

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try and create some of that alignment or what other coping

Lee Griffith:

strategies you might need to put in place? Well, perhaps you have

Lee Griffith:

to continue to work in those organizations where that values

Lee Griffith:

alignment isn't there. But I feel like that's talked about

Lee Griffith:

more like people actually use those words more like, I don't

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feel my values are aligned with those of my organization. And

Lee Griffith:

that's making it really difficult for me to be impactful

Lee Griffith:

in the workplace. And so I don't know whether it's because my is

Lee Griffith:

more tuned into that or whether people actually feel more

Lee Griffith:

comfortable having that conversation now.

Lee Griffith:

I don't have an answer.

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: i Sorry, I left that question directly for you.

Lee Griffith:

Whereas it was more of a rhetorical question as in I

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don't think any of us have the answer. I was expecting you to

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blow me away with some bigger, big responses to that. But why

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don't you know, everything you're my go to person issues.

Lee Griffith:

So what else are we predicting for 2024? In terms

Lee Griffith:

of the leadership world, we've talked a bit about? I suppose

Lee Griffith:

this reverting back to some of the I don't think it's just this

Lee Griffith:

staying at home versus coming into the office. I think there

Lee Griffith:

are other behaviors that we're starting to revert back into and

Lee Griffith:

I'm not liking it. Oh, my goodness, I

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: got the finger wag then. I'm doing some of

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these bad behaviors. What I get Your finger at me. I'm thinking

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what you're about to tell me is where you think leadership might

Lee Griffith:

be heading in a negative way. Because you've seen some of

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these bad behavior? No, no, I don't think it's just exclusive

Lee Griffith:

to that. But so where do we think, intentions for good and

Lee Griffith:

bad, but what's going to be influencing leadership, I

Lee Griffith:

suppose in 2024. So I definitely think over this year, so I'm

Lee Griffith:

hoping this continues into next year, there have been more

Lee Griffith:

discussions in public spaces and with leaders about issues around

Lee Griffith:

psychological safety, and how to create environments where people

Lee Griffith:

can thrive, for example. So that feels really positive. And I

Lee Griffith:

would like that to continue, I would like leaders and others to

Lee Griffith:

understand more about what that truly means for them in their

Lee Griffith:

organization, and how they can help create some of these

Lee Griffith:

conditions in a genuine way. That's my thing about it needing

Lee Griffith:

to feel genuine. And I have definitely seen a sort of

Lee Griffith:

groundswell of more women speaking out in that leadership

Lee Griffith:

space, and having a voice potentially being a bit more

Lee Griffith:

demanding about what they expect from the leadership teams that

Lee Griffith:

they work with, how they want to operate as a leader, and kind of

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what that means for them. So I think those vibes are definitely

Lee Griffith:

kind of still there, and will probably continue into 2024. So

Lee Griffith:

hopefully, that there are good things that might my carry on.

Lee Griffith:

So I don't know about you on the good, frankly, what you're

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thinking is on the positives for next year.

Lee Griffith:

And I Well, one of the things that, again, it's

Lee Griffith:

hard to know whether it's been manifested because that's what

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I've been focusing on. Oh, no, no, I say we have a massive

Lee Griffith:

tongue in my cheek. But this, this whole concept of self

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leadership, and we're going to talk about that later on in this

Lee Griffith:

series. But I do think that there's, I'm noticing it more

Lee Griffith:

and more of leaders, taking that time to be more aware of the

Lee Griffith:

impact that they're having, and doing more work on themselves

Lee Griffith:

and how they want to show up as the type of leader that they

Lee Griffith:

are. And also just thought that clarity of these are the

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boundaries that I'm going to work to this is, this is the

Lee Griffith:

type of leader I want to be all of that kind of stuff. So I

Lee Griffith:

think that that focus on self leadership, I call it, I think

Lee Griffith:

we'll have more prominence over the next year. I think there are

Lee Griffith:

things and I don't know yet whether there's probably good

Lee Griffith:

and bad for this. But I think the role of AI and tech is

Lee Griffith:

probably going to be interesting to see what that means from a

Lee Griffith:

leadership world. And that kind of leadership perspective, will

Lee Griffith:

it help or hinder? Will people embrace it? Or, again, is it

Lee Griffith:

something to be scared of? I don't have the answers. But I

Lee Griffith:

think it's going to be an interesting one to look through

Lee Griffith:

a lens off.

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: And I think on that point that the AI and tech,

Lee Griffith:

the trust issue comes back in, because not knowing how that

Lee Griffith:

will play out in the leadership space. I think leaders might

Lee Griffith:

need to be quite thoughtful about how they embrace AI, given

Lee Griffith:

everything that we've seen around kind of fake, you know,

Lee Griffith:

fake news, fake people fake everything, in terms of

Lee Griffith:

conversation that's all been generated digitally. So again,

Lee Griffith:

is that I hope what doesn't happen is that leaders become

Lee Griffith:

hugely reliant on digital tech and AI, to do some of their

Lee Griffith:

leadership role for them, which are the bits that really they

Lee Griffith:

need to be doing themselves, because that's where the growth

Lee Griffith:

and the learning is. So yeah, that would be my only worry in

Lee Griffith:

that space. But I think leaders do need to do a lot of learning

Lee Griffith:

and really get to grips with what impact that's going to have

Lee Griffith:

not just for their sector, organization and business, but

Lee Griffith:

like you say for them as a leader in their leadership

Lee Griffith:

teams, for sure.

Lee Griffith:

I think the equity and inclusion agenda is going to

Lee Griffith:

continue to be prominent next year as well. I think probably

Lee Griffith:

the negative instances and things that are going to

Lee Griffith:

continue to draw light to the issues. But I say this having

Lee Griffith:

seen a letter that came out I know

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: what you're gonna say and I'm already got my

Lee Griffith:

hackles up.

Lee Griffith:

And so, this this kind of diktat from from central

Lee Griffith:

government around organizational approach to managing equality

Lee Griffith:

and diversity in organizations in the health sector in

Lee Griffith:

particular, came out last week at the point that we're

Lee Griffith:

recording anyway last week. And again, feels like it's a

Lee Griffith:

backward step and not being sensitive to some of the real

Lee Griffith:

issues that underlie the health service in particular. But I do

Lee Griffith:

wonder whether again, is that going to set a tone for

Lee Griffith:

elsewhere? Yeah,

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: absolutely. And, yeah, there's something. I

Lee Griffith:

think that's that thing, isn't it about tone, tone of

Lee Griffith:

leadership? What's that going to be like? And it feels like,

Lee Griffith:

we've talked about it already some of that more hierarchical

Lee Griffith:

command and control, old fashioned stereotypical

Lee Griffith:

leadership stuff seems to be bubbling back up to the fore and

Lee Griffith:

how to our task, obviously, because this is what we're all

Lee Griffith:

about, how do we, how do we stop that taking prominence again,

Lee Griffith:

and I'm not sure that just the two of us are going to be able

Lee Griffith:

to do that by ourselves. But hopefully, with our listeners

Lee Griffith:

and our wider community, we can, we can challenge some of that.

Lee Griffith:

But it is interesting to see that sort of slipping back in.

Lee Griffith:

Yeah.

Lee Griffith:

And I, you know, next year is all going to be

Lee Griffith:

around election ramp up, isn't it. And that is you. We talked

Lee Griffith:

about tone that is going to set the tone. And then we've talked

Lee Griffith:

a bit about populism and the fact that people are playing for

Lee Griffith:

points and saying things just to try and score on that populist

Lee Griffith:

front. That is just you know, we know that that's going to be a

Lee Griffith:

theme of the election, and certainly by to some parties,

Lee Griffith:

not necessarily all parties. I think it's going to distract.

Lee Griffith:

And it's going to throw a lot of things into the debates that

Lee Griffith:

again, could be undoing work in progress,

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: then a bit sad now. In fact, I'm going to

Lee Griffith:

reframe that I'm all about the reframe this year, I'm reframing

Lee Griffith:

that I'm not going to feel sad about it, I'm going to feel like

Lee Griffith:

it set me a challenge to want to make sure that I don't slip into

Lee Griffith:

that space. And think about how I can use it to motivate me and

Lee Griffith:

us through the collaborative that we're part of to really try

Lee Griffith:

and challenge some of that. So reframe Sabtu start with

Lee Griffith:

positive opportunity to challenge now. Yeah.

Lee Griffith:

And then there are you know, there are people out

Lee Griffith:

there and we just need to find those those people and and it

Lee Griffith:

will be small steps. And one step forward to step back is how

Lee Griffith:

it's felt. We take another step forward at some point, and we

Lee Griffith:

have to find what that is. So I think that's we've we've went on

Lee Griffith:

for 45 minutes on

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: very insightful thoughts about leadership today.

Lee Griffith:

AKA weighing in on we've been weighing in on our soapbox

Lee Griffith:

again. We're back. Did you miss it?

Lee Griffith:

So we've got lots of things. I'm sure what we've

Lee Griffith:

been talking about today, we're going to be touching on in the

Lee Griffith:

coming weeks as we delve a little bit, we're going to do a

Lee Griffith:

deep dive into some of these. For those who are listening, not

Lee Griffith:

watching, you won't have seen my extreme iro I did then she

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: didn't mean it. She was just using that weird

Lee Griffith:

leadership language that we don't like on purpose. So back

Lee Griffith:

Yeah, I think that's all those we've got an

Lee Griffith:

outro that will play so I'm not gonna say anything else.

Lee Griffith:

Thanks for listening. Don't forget to hit follow to make

Lee Griffith:

sure you get the next episode. And if today's discussion

Lee Griffith:

resonated, please leave a review on Apple podcasts.

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: We also have a substack community where you can

Lee Griffith:

get behind the scenes info, Ask Us Anything session and build

Lee Griffith:

your network with like minded leaders. Visit how to take the

Lee Griffith:

lead.substack.com To find out more.

Lee Griffith:

And if you want to work with us to challenge and

Lee Griffith:

change leadership in your organization. Get in touch by

Lee Griffith:

dropping us an email how to take the lead@gmail.com or DM us on

Lee Griffith:

the socials. Until next week.

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: Get out there and take the lead

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