Shownotes
A dancer and a musician, this couple has been a part of the history of Mexican traditional musics in the LA area for more than half a century! We interview them in a double episode.
SUMMARY OF RESEARCH SOURCES
The great majority of sources about twentieth-century Mexican music in Los Angeles are in English. In order not to present two very different-sized bibliographies, we have combined them here into a single document.
Mariachi & Son jarocho in LA & at UCLA
Alexandro Hernández, “The Son Jarocho and Fandango Amidst Struggle and Social Movements:Migratory Transformation and Reinterpretation of the Son Jarocho in La Nueva España, México, and the United States. “ PhD Dissertation, UCLA. 2014
Loza, Steven. Barrio Rhythm: Mexican American Music in Los Angeles. Vol. 517. University of Illinois Press, 1993.
----------------- "From Veracruz to Los Angeles: The Reinterpretation of the" Son Jarocho"." Latin American Music Review/Revista de Música Latinoamericana 13.2 (1992): 179-194.
Maureen Russell, “Highlights from the Ethnomusicology Archive: Music of Mexico Ensemble.” Nov. 2012 https://ethnomusicologyreview.ucla.edu/content/highlights-ethnomusicology-archive-music-mexico-ensemble
----------------------“Special Guest: Dr. Robert Saxe and the Music of Mexico Ensemble, 1964” -- Ethnomusicology Review
Salazar, Lauryn Camille. "From Fiesta to Festival: Mariachi Music in California and the Southwestern United States." PhD diss., UCLA, 2011.
https://www.proquest.com/docview/919079833?accountid=14512
El Ballet Folklórico
“Emilio Pulido Interview, 1999) -- USC Digital Library
http://digitallibrary.usc.edu/digital/collection/p15799coll105/id/1589/rec/1
“A History of Mexican Folklórico in Southern California” -- The Dance History Project of Southern California
“Grupo Folklorico de UCLA” -- gfdeUCLA.com
“The Role of Folklorico and Danzantes Unidos in the Chican@ Movement” -- Eve Marie Delfin
https://escholarship.org/uc/item/6mw0n3x9
El Mestizaje
A great deal has been written (and debated) around this theme; even a representative bibliography is not within the scope of this document. We offer here just a couple of classic sources, in which the idea of Mexican national identity as a “mixture” was developed.
José Vasconcelos. La Raza Cósmica. Misión de la raza iberoamericana. Notas de viajes a la América del Sur. (1925) Madrid, Spain : Aguilar, 1966.
Bilingual edition:
Cosmic race: a bilingual edition. Translated and annotated by Didier T. Jaén
Baltimore, Maryland : Johns Hopkins University Press, 1997
Octavio Paz. t
El laberinto de la soledad. (1950) ed. por Anthony Stanton. Manchester University Press/ Palgrave, 2008.
English translation:
The labyrinth of solitude: life and thought in Mexico, by Octavio Paz. Translated by Lysander Kemp. New York : Grove Press, 1961.
Transcripts
ELG: So now we’ll turn our virtual gaze to you, Jorge. And I want to explain to the listeners that we’ve worked together for some time, it’s a few years now that we’ve been members of a little son jarocho group here in Santa Ana, and that’s why I speak so familiarly to don Jorge…So then, if you can begin, just like we did with Maestra Chela, just introducing yourself a little bit to the audience: your full name and some facts about your life.
Jorge: Okay, here we go…well, to start with, my name on my birth certficate is Ricardo, Ricardo Jorge Holguín.
ELG: Mmm.
Jorge: So what happened is that my mother wanted me to be Ricardo, and my father wanted it to be Jorge, or George in English. We were living in El Paso, Texas. And so they kept calling me George, and when my brother was born, they named him Ricardo! So that’s how it is: he’s Ricardo, and I’m Ricardo Jorge. And that stuck. I’m stuck with George!
ELG: [laughs]
n those days – this was the:ELG: Yeah.
Jorge: And that’s with harp. In the old days they didn’t even use requinto. But then later they added it to the groups.
itary service – that was in:ELG: Mmm.
Jorge: And in that place, the guys who made up that group were just guys from the States, from East LA—I guess one of them was from Tonaya, Jalisco, the one who sang the top part. So, that was the very first time I heard a jarocho group.
te of Ethnomusicology in the:Jorge: But I had begun to sing already, because I was an altar boy for many years, and the choir director that was there really liked how I sang. I sang in the novenas and services at church. Also, I always sang along when the Beatles were singing!
ELG: Mm-hmm.
Jorge: And I joined the church choir. And then, getting into the choir, well that meant that I sang two or three Masses every Sunday. I liked singing so much!
ELG: Yes!
Jorge: And then, well…I also sang as a soloist when I was in Cathedral High School. I was a soloist in the chorus there, which they called “The Glee Club,” and then later on at LACC, I also sang in the chorus.
ELG: Wow, so, lots of singing, so much singing! – And I have a comment about that, if I may. I’ve noted in my own work as a music teacher, that many young people don’t want to sing. It’s like they’re embarrassed or something, it inhibits them from singing freely, so they grow up listening to music but not singing it. And I guess I believe that really, human beings are just made to sing! –And then, just the other day you and I were talking about how, as we age, singing helps keep us young, right? It’s like a source of strength…
Jorge: It’s good for your mind because you have to learn the lyrics, and the different songs with their instruments, you have to learn to accompany yourself, accompany the songs with the chords and the music…
ELG: Yeah, yeah, it’s really important to do that…But okay, returning to your story. So then, you sang a lot, lot, lot! as a youth. And then, after high school, you mentioned that you did military service, and there you went to other countries, right?
Jorge: I was in Germany. In Heidelberg.
ELG: Mm-hmm.
Jorge: That was the headquarters of all the Armed Services in Europe. And while I was there, well, I got bit again by the bug of wanting to sing! And since I was there, well, I looked for a singing teacher, and they recommended one to me. She had been an opera singer in her day, but she was already old by then. So I studied with her while I was in Heidelberg, for almost two years I worked with that teacher. We did performances, using the wardrobe from the Heidelberg Opera Company, they lent it to me since I was singing there.
ELG: Uh-huh.
Jorge: Also, I had the pleasure of being able to join a soldiers’ chorus, they called it "The Voices of Patton." I was a soloist there too; we sang in the churches, in German churches. They invited us to sing.
ELG: So here, I want us to touch on a theme that interests me a lot. So—you have some Classical training in singing, as well as, or alongside of the training you got by singing in children’s choruses, as well as all the singing in jarocho style. In short, you have really varied vocal training and experience. So something I want to talk with you about, because like I said it interests me a lot, has to do with singing style. You mentioned Andrés Huesca, and you mentioned his singing style, his vocal style. let’s say. So let’s listen to a bit of Andrés Huesca singing "Canto a Veracruz," and then we’ll talk more about this.
clip of Andrés Huesca, “Canto a Veracruz”
~0:15-0:45
orded by Conjunto Candelas in:
Jorge: In person!
clip of Conjunto Candelas, “La Bruja”
you can play as much of this as you like!
ELG: And so it goes. It’s another beauty, eh? – But what I wanted to remark upon, by making this musical comparison, is that it’s very obvious that your voice has a lot to do with Andrés Huesca;s way of singing, even with his actual voice. They’re very comparable. And this singing style, well, one notes how sweet it is, no? Very smooth, sweet, it has energy and a lot of feeling, but what I really want to point out, what gets my attention, is the sweetness of the vocal production. And I wonder if you’d care to comment a little on that, as well as on your training as a singer, and how it contributes to that vocal quality.
Jorge. Yes! So when I first began taking voice lessons it was here in LA. I was going to the studio of Lucía Liverette. And, well, she always, the very first thing she taught us was how to produce the voice. You have to take your breath using the diaphragm. That’s a muscle that’s in between your ribs, and you have to use it so that you can feel your lungs filling up with air. Then you have to feel the resonance, how it’s right their in your own forehead. Always feeling the resonance! And feeling that, feeling the support of having the air to produce the sound. And then…then you have to do exercises, they have to stretch the voice so that it can be heard, and so that it doesn’t sound like it’s stuck in your throat. – That was the basics that I learned, and also in Germany, it was the same.
ELG: And it’s interesting, you know, that even between these traditions that are quite different, like Classical opera singing and singing for son jarocho, it’s like good singing, good vocal production—well, it’s the same. It’s the same mechanism, no? And I think that’s really interesting, because musically those traditions are really different.
Jorge: Yes. And another thing, that when I help out with the workshops at the Centro—the Centro Cultural, you know—I always tell people that they mustn’t sing with their throats, because then…Because, look, in all these years that I’ve been singing, I have never once lost my voice or gone hoarse—never! And I’ve sung a lot. Even when I was singing three Masses a day I never got hoarse [ELG laughs] because I knew how to use my voice. So it’s that when you’re singing, if you want to sing loudly but you constrict your throat, that’s not going to work. But you do have to project. Once one of the son jarocho teachers told us when I asked him how he was able to sing so loudly, singing in the outdoors like they do, and he said, “Well, in my village we all shout at each other from one side of the village to another, and we have to project, because if we don’t know one will hear us!” – And you can hear that in the fandangos, in the recordings that those artists make. They sing like that, projecting that way.
ELG: Yeah, yeah, it’s fundamental, like, a healthy vocal production, right? Because if you do it any other way you can wreck your voice that way. And I imagine that it’s the same case with dance:
that there are healthy ways, healthy practices for dancing correctly and not messing up, for example, your ankles, or hurting some other part of your body. It’s that with dance, too, there are constant principles of good production, right?
Graciela: Yes! There’s a technique I learned at the Universidad de Guadalajara. You need to have your knees bent all the time, and more than anything, you need to not stomp with your whole weight on the floor. You do have to strike the floor, but there are ways of doing it without hurting yourself. And most dancers, well, they just stomp . It’s like they think that dancing means they have to destroy the floor, in other words! [laughs] And, well, not me…and my knees are perfect!
ELG: Wow.
Graciela: My legs…the reason that I stopped dancing was that I broke a leg, and then I lost my sense of balance because I had an ear infection; so now I have vertigo. So I don’t trust myself any more to dance and do spins and turns. No, because I never know when I’m going to have the vertigo…but my technique, my legs—it’s all there. I can even say, in optimum condition! And that’s in spite of dancing for so many years, so many performances…I’m fine, and I’ve never had problems. Among my contemporaries, they all stopped dancing because of knee problems, in the meniscus. But not me. I’ve never had problems! I’ve always tried to apply that technique, even though I danced for many years on cement. That’s how we practiced in the University Ballet—we didn’t have a dance floor.
ELG: Yeah, yeah. Well that’s a testimony, isn’t it, to the importance of good technique. In both cases, whether it’s dance or singing.
All right, we’re going to go on now to the second song that you chose, Jorge. It’s a song by Nicandro Castillo, called “la Rosa.” And I found an interesting recording of it, from the Frontera Strachwitz collection. With your permission, let’s listen to this recording for a minute or two; then we’ll talk about the reasons fro your choice. Here we go…
clip from “La Rosa,” Strachwitz recording
~0:20-0:50
ELG” And now I’m going to take another liberty, and pass directly to the recording of “La Rosa,” the same song, by Conjunto Candelas, with Jorge Holguín as the principal voice. Here we go.
clip by Conjunto Candelas, “La Rosa”
play as much of this as you like!
ELG: I couldn’t resist the the comparison, it’s just so notable…
INSERT #2: the Strachwitz Frontera Collection
ELG: So: tell us a little bit. Why did you choose this song?
Jorge: Well, it’s one that I heard played by the huasteco groups I listened from the time I was a child. One of them was this very one by Nicandro Castillo. He was another great composer, and I liked this song too. Also for the lyrics in the verses. And back when Chela and I were making eyes at each other, [all three laugh] when we were getting to know one another, I even took one of the verses and sang it as if I were singing to her. That’s why I liked it, why I liked “La Rosa.” [laughs]
ELG: So you were flirting within the group, during the performances by the group you two were flirting!
Jorge: Yup. She was my Rosa.
Graciela: And I was dancing, and I’d turn to look at him, right? Me dancing there, and he was singing…PLEASE JOIN THESE TWO CLIPS
ELG: That must have made quite a spectacle, no? I can just imagine! Ahh, that’s magical…So, then, Jorge. There’s a lot that we could talk about, and we will talk about it, I’m sure. But just to bring our chat today to a close, I want to move on to the two sones you mentioned to me. You mentioned “La Guacamaya,” the son that goes by that name, as a musical image or representation of your origins. And you gave me written material about it, where you said, and I quote,” For me, it represents Nature, animals, and plants.” Do you want to speak a little more for those who are listening, about this son, and how it is that Veracruzan son has this very special relation with Nature, right?
Jorge: Yes, so I like the version—I don’t know if it’s the one you have chosen—but the version I like is the one by Lino Chávez. So when Lino Chávez came to LA, we invited him to gatherings in the house of one of the guys. And after that, he taught the fellow who played requinto with us, that was Roberto Chagolla, who didn’t speak much Spanish because he was raised in East LA and his mother was from Arizona; and they spoke English, not Spanish, in their home. But…
ELG: Uh-huh.
Jorge: But anyway, Roberto had a lot of facility, from playing requinto romántico. And he liked the requinto jarocho, and with Lino, when Lino came he taught him. So Lino, for me, he’s the father of all requinto players, at least for requinto jarocho.
ELG: Uh-huh.
Jorge: That’s why I asked for this version of “La Guacamaya. If you play it, make sure you play his solo!
clip of Son de la Guacamaya, with the solo by Lino Chávez
fade in at ~2:00 (captures the requinto solo, which Jorge wanted)
Jorge: His famous solo! [laughs]
ELG Yes! Really cool, his way of playing. I totally agree with you.
Jorge: He also recorded with Tlen-Huicani, he also recorded with them.
Graciela: And wasn’t Lino missing a finger? isn’t that right?
Jorge: He played, he began as a violinist, he played violin. But he hurt his hand at work, he chopped off part of a finger. And I don’t know how…how he was able to play like that, with such speed.
ELG: No, you can’t hear it at all, he’s compensated completely…
And then, the song you chose to represent your hopes for the future. I think you chose really well, with “La Bamba.” You said, and I quote, that “it can be adapted to any occasion, and it’s really lively.” And in this case, I think that’s a good description of the two of you—you adapt to any occasion, and you’re very lively! [laughs]
So I think we’ll end this interview with “La Bamba.” Before we play it, do you have any comments about this son?
Jorge: Yes, so it seems to me about this son, that almost all fandangos end with “La Bamba.”
ELG: Mm-hmm.
Jorge: So I chose it for that—because it’s so lively, and it ends things…
Graciela: That’s true for dance programs too.
ELG: Mm-hmm. Yeah, both the dance and the music are equally lively and striking, right? It’s another Mexican musical icon, no? Especially of Veracruz.
So I have here the recording by Lino Chávez’s group, Conjunto Medellín…and then, before we end the interview, I do want to thank both of you so very much for your patience, your good spirits, and your wonderful personal histories. I’m serious when I say that I think we’ve only begun the conversation with this interview. There’s so much to talk about!
clip by Conjunto Medellín, Son de la Bamba.
go back as far as necessary from the end of the interview to start it here, let us hear a few seconds of it, and then keep it playing under our voices as we say goodbye. The interview should end about 20 seconds before the music clip does. This uses more than 30 sec of music but we can get away with it I think.
ELG: And there we are! Okay: thank you, thank you so much, a thousand times. And please have a lovely afternoon.
Jorge y Graciela: The same to you, you too!
ELG: We’ll be in touch.
Jorge: Okay.
ELG: Great.
Jorge & Graciela: Have a good one.
ELG: Okay, a hug to you both.
Graciela: And to you!
ELG: Yes, ciao!
