Hey there, listener! Thank you for checking out our older seasons! We're adding this note on the top of the show notes to keep you up-to-date with the show. Connect with Jen Amos and get bonus content when you subscribe to our private podcast show, Inside the Fort by US VetWealth, at http://insidethefort.com/

Last Updated: September 2, 2024

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143: "Changing the language from 'dependent' to 'family member' is one easy way to make people feel like they belong." Connection & military spouse advocacy with Jennifer Barnhill

In Jennifer Barnill's research of studying the military spouse community, one theme stands out: the desire to belong. Although she can relate as a military spouse, it has become a sense of responsibility for her to collect data to support, represent and advocate for the military spouse community as a whole. She explores why pivotal roles within military spousal support organizations often go unpaid, how the word 'dependent' continues to send a negative message, the importance of finding connection no matter what - even if it's not with fellow spouses, and much more.

Connect with Jennifer Barnhill

• https://www.linkedin.com/in/jennifermbarnhill/
• https://www.facebook.com/morethanadependent
• https://www.instagram.com/weservetoo/
• https://twitter.com/more_than_mommy
• Learn about Jennifer's work as Chief Operating Officer of Partners in PROMISE http://thepromiseact.org/
• Disruptive Storytelling with Military Changemakers Podcast https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/disruptive-storytelling-with-military-changemakers/id1576261817

Resources

• 2021 Military Spouse Group Survey Findings https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/2021-military-spouse-group-survey-findings-jennifer-barnhill/
• 2021 Military Spouse Group Survey Findings (Interactive Pictograph): https://create.piktochart.com/output/45112575-2021-military-spouse-group-survey-findings
• A Military Spouse’s Journey From Annoyance to Advocacy article https://thewarhorse.org/from-annoyance-to-advocacy/
• Future military spouse clubs must change to survive https://militaryfamilies.com/military-spouses/future-military-spouse-clubs-must-change-to-survive/

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RETURNING FALL 2023

The award-winning podcast, Holding Down the Fort by US VetWealth, is returning for Season 7 in Fall 2023 to share inspiring stories of service and self-sufficiency from the military community! This show is a must-listen for military servicemembers and families interested in pursuing financial autonomy while serving our nation.

The show is very excited to announce its new partnership with The Rosie Network, which will include featuring the stories of Service2CEO Cohort Members. Read more about this exciting partnership at https://issuu.com/therosienetwork/docs/me_mag_2023/16

Our main sponsor US VetWealth is proud to announce their newest FREE resource hub: Military Retirement Blueprint — the perfect knowledge library for career retiring military officers who want to make the most of their retirement. This specialized program provides training, guides, consulting, investment-grade insurance strategies, financial & retirement planning, and more. Join for FREE today by visiting: https://usvetwealth.com/war-chest-learning-center-access-the-military-retirement-blueprint/

Stay connected and get the latest updates from our Holding Down the Fort by US VetWealth community by subscribing to our newsletter: http://eepurl.com/gTTOdT Questions? Email jen@holdingdownthefortpodcast.com

In August 2022, Jen Amos' work on the podcast was recognized by Disney Institute and she was hand-selected as the only non-Disney employee to moderate the first Military Spouse Employment panel for the Veterans Institute Summit. March 2022, Jenny Lynne has voted the 2022 Naval Station Norfolk Armed Forces Insurance Military Spouse of the Year. November 2020, Jen Amos was awarded “Media Professional of the Year” at The Rosie Network Entrepreneur Awards! The show continued to collect award nominations in the following years. In September 2021, the show made the Final Slate in the 16th Annual People's Choice Podcast Awards for the Government & Organizations category. In November 2021, the show was an Award Finalist for the 5th Annual National Veteran & Military Spouse Entrepreneur Awards. December 2021, the show was a Golden Crane Podcast Awards Nominee. September 2022, the show was a Finalist for the 13th Annual Plutus Awards presented by Capital Group for “Best Military Personal Finance Content.”

Holding Down the Fort has also been featured in multiple media outlets including Military Entrepreneur (M.E.) Magazine, MOAA’s Never Stop Learning Podcast, The Leadership Void Podcast, Lessons Learned for Vets Podcast, Sisters in Service Podcast, Get 2 Vet, Blue Star Families of Dayton & Southwestern Ohio, Legacy Magazine, U.S. Veterans Magazine, The American MilSpouse, VeteranCrowd Network, It's a Military Life, VirtForce, Military Veteran Dad Podcast, and much more.

Enjoy our show? Kindly leave us a written 5-Star review on Apple Podcasts https://apple.co/30SJ7NW, Podchaser https://bit.ly/3dnCacY, or write a LinkedIn Recommendation for Jen Amos https://www.linkedin.com/in/jenamos/edit/forms/recommendation/write/

Jen Amos 0:00

All right. Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode here at the award winning podcast show holding down the fort. I am your Creator and co host Jenn Amos. And as always, I have my amazing co host with me, Jenny Lynch troupe Jennylyn Welcome back to hold down the fort. Hey, glad to be here today. Yes, and we're excited because every now and then we tend to have all gems on the show and so today is one of those situations. So let me go ahead and introduce you all to Jennifer Barnhill, who is incredible in her own right. She is a military family journalist, researcher, Navy spouse, mom of three Chief Operating Officer of partners in promise and also the podcast host of disruptive storytelling with military changemakers. Really excited to talk to her today because she has done a lot of work in creating awareness around military spouse groups. So without further ado, Jennifer Jennifer Barnhill Welcome to hold now the fort.

Speaker 1 0:54

Thanks for having me. Yeah, there's a lot of gems in this virtual room right now.

Jen Amos 0:59

Yes, yes. I'm excited to say everyone's like full names, just so our listeners know, I'm Jenny most in case anyone's wondering. But yeah, it's just it's just always fun to run into other Jennifer's reminds me I was saying this offline. But it very much reminds me of like, back in my elementary days when there was like six Jennifer's one class. So we'd all go by, like, Jennifer and like our last name initial kind of thing. So I was like Jennifer A, and it was like Jennifer G and all that stuff. But anyway, all that aside, it's great to have you, Jennifer, I have been reading a couple of your articles out there, like in military families magazine and Warhorse, and let's just open up with that. And the fact that you are a military spouse, and a military family journalists, like being able to talk about the family experience must be so fulfilling and personal for you.

Speaker 1 1:47

Yeah, I mean, so I've always been a writer, right? The topics have always changed, you know, with the military life, like, my husband and I have been blessed enough to live Oh, CONUS, twice in Japan, where I got to write about, you know, traveling the world, and what restaurants to check out, you know, before smartphones, so I'm giving like, step by step, turn by turn directions and as part of my journalism, and then as you know, the years progressed, that kind of changed. And the writing ended up getting a little bit more into advocacy, because it was personal, you know, like, this is the things the stories that are impacting my friends, my, you know, Gears myself, and so it is one of those weird I wear a lot of hats because I could write a story and it could impact me directly or it might be doesn't, but it impacts people I know. And it's really been an honor to represent the stories of my friends. Really.

Jen Amos 2:45

Yeah, absolutely. There's one thing I want to get out of the way first, because this has also been a pet peeve of mine, you wrote about this in your article, a military spouses journey from annoyance to advocacy on the war horse. And in the article you open up by people always asking you, where are you from? I personally find this as a pet peeve because, you know, having been a military child with parents from the Philippines, but being born in Japan in Yokosuka military base, you know, on American soil, I always get asked all these odd questions. So how do you deal with that question? When people ask you, you know, Jen, where are you from?

Speaker 1 3:21

Yeah, it really just depends on the context, right? So if they're asking where I'm living, of course, that's a really obvious, you know, answer. And right now I'm in Monterey, California, which is great, beautiful. It's always the same, you know, degrees outside, although it's like cloudy right now, which who knows. But if they ask, you know, it doesn't I don't know, it doesn't that doesn't bother me as much. The times where it bothers me is when I'm dealing with advocacy and reporting. And it's maybe a legislator who's like, are you in my district? I'm like, Well, maybe no, but But I live here. Now, you know, I'm not, I'm not registered to vote here. But I live here, and it impacts me. And so defining where we live, the way that that comes to me as a pet peeve is when it's almost used against us, like, you're not going to be here for any length of time, you're really not invested in this community. So you're really not from here, whatever from here means. So, in that sense, I love and hate that question. Because I think that it really gives like a context of what experiences you've had in your life. Like, it's amazing that you were born in Yokosuka, which by the way, my daughter was also born in Yokosuka, she had that certificate of Birth Abroad. And yes, it's such a cool story. Like that's an amazing story to get to share with people. But it is one of those things like we belong everywhere and nowhere at the same time. And it's really

Jen Amos 4:43

I really liked your perspective on that. Because for me, I'm always thinking of like, well, I always think of it from like an identity standpoint of like, okay, well, like what does it matter if you know where quote unquote, I'm from, like, what does that mean? But I like your perspective, because it's like, well, the concern that I have is if I'm not From your district, like, Are you saying that I don't matter? Are you saying that I can't make a difference? And I actually never really heard of it that way. So I do appreciate you sharing that perspective. Genuine. I'm curious if you have any thoughts about this?

Speaker 2 5:12

Oh, I think I always, when people ask me where I'm from, I mean, it's easy. Now we're stationed back in my hometown. So here is the answer currently, but most people, there's probably like, a good pause where my face does something, and they get this look like, Oh, this is going to be really in depth. And I take that like five second wait to go. Are you asking where I was born? Or are you asking about, like my experience, you know, as a military spouse? Because those are two very different questions. You know, I think about it often, in terms of my own military kids, like, they were born in the same city I was born in, but they really grew up in Southern California. And now we're like back in the place where they were born. But the cultures are very different. And so it's always an interesting, you know, I think very much I look at things with a writer's mind as well. And it's like, what's the story here? And how much can I share with you about that question?

Speaker 1 6:14

It's a good jumping off point for, you know, a conversation for sure. Because if you want to go there, if you want to have your military story, if you want to share that part of yourself, it is the opening line, like it gives you that ability to not just be like, guess what? I'm associated with the military. It's, it's just part of your story that is added to the military. So it is organic way to kind of share that part of yourself.

Jen Amos 6:39

Yeah, I don't know. It just you guys got me talking. So it's like now that we sort of have this established that you're saying that part of why you don't like hearing the question is, it almost sounds as though if you're not like, from there, you're almost alienated. And it's almost as if you are not considered a credible source or someone as credible to make a difference in that area. And yeah, it just gets me to think about, like, how that must feel to be like, Well, I am here, and I do want to make a difference. And I'm going to try to make a difference anyway, while I'm here, whether you think that I can't or not. And so I think that's sort of like the attitude, I feel like I'm getting from you. It's like, I'm here, I'm gonna make a difference.

Speaker 1 7:18

That's exactly what we're here to talk about today. It's that goes back to, like, where do we belong? And how who, what programs exist, to support who we are within this space? Because, you know, part of my research, I'll try to keep this as short as possible, I tell you about how I've always been a writer, but why did I take on advocacy? It was because of one person that I met when we were in San Diego, and she received a really devastating diagnosis. And it was heartbreaking for the entire community. You know, how do you see her and she has kids, my kids age. And our spouse group just was just really ill prepared to care for her needs. Even though we were really wanting to we all had careers, thankfully, right. That's great, you know, success story. But the spouse groups that were kind of tasked with those like day to day, let's drive the children to childcare or help with meals or cleaning the house, or those types of small things. That was just not a structure that was ready to receive her and help her and come around her. And thankfully, she had a community to do that, because they were established, but it was just it was bothering me like, What if they hadn't been established like this, if they were brand new, they didn't have the financial resources to kind of like, bring in a family member or whatever to kind of help them. There's just there was just a lack of this support. And you know that her story was just kind of the spark that made me want to understand these structures, these spouse groups. If that was the system that was supposed to come around us, then how important was it? Was it an official group? Was it? You know, what's going on? You know, is this part of the military? Where do we belong? Where do we fit? How can we, as a community come around people who are in need? Because we do it really well? Right? I think I think as a community, military families, military spouses are really great at showing up. You know, if we're needed, we're really good at that. Because we're used to being if we've ever been on the receiving end of that, we always want to be the person to fill it for someone else. And that's very big generalization, but I've just noticed that, but structurally within the Department of Defense, where do we fit? Like, how does the human side of families fit in? And so I just wanted to understand spouse groups, so I started researching writing stories, talking to people just really getting to know other people's experiences because as you said earlier, I'm a Navy spouse and we every branch does this family support thing its own way. And so I just I was learning and writing and it goes back to what we're talking about before about belonging. The main thing that I I found is that, you know, once you become a gold star spouse or your your last or service member, you know, due to some circumstances either combat related or illness, you don't feel like you, you belong anymore to Active Duty community. As I research transition, our veterans don't feel like they belong anymore. So there's this lack, if you're not active duty, you don't count. That's the feeling that people reported to me, in various groups in different communities. They couldn't be connected, they could be spouses, they could have been, you know, former active duty, there's this, you know, put your money where your mouth is kind of like the money goes to the active duty, that's the priority, which it should be. But then, How does everyone else fit to that? And so that's kind of what I've been after in doing my reporting and understanding where the the military spouses within this community belong?

Yeah. And it gets me to think about there's a line that you mentioned in the article I've been referencing about, like, systematically, like, how does the system perceive like military spouses and spouse groups for that matter? And you actually pose this question to your readers? If military families matter so much to the DOD? Why do pivotal roles within military spousal support organizations go unpaid? Why does our job of stay at home spouses secondary breadwinners and primary parents Ernesta title of quote unquote, dependent and not teammate, and the reason why I brought up this line is because our spouses and families, you know, shameless plug holding down the fort, but very often it goes under appreciated, it goes unnoticed. It's kind of like part of the package, part of the sacrifice that you make for being part of the family, or being part of the military community. And so it gets me to think about, like, you know, the system tells you like the fact that, like, our spouses aren't getting paid, for example, or they're highly educated, and yet underemployed, it doesn't make sense, that line that you just said that, if you're not active duty, it's easy to feel like you don't count in this situation. And so I wanted to sort of bring that up and kind of bring that to light and recognize that I guess, just to enforce and to affirm, like what you have shared, genuine, just want to check in with you see if you had any thoughts?

Oh, so many thoughts. You know, I think the one thing that I have learned doing this podcast and doing you know, the mental health advocacy work that I do, is I come at all of these things with a very Navy centric view, because that is my experience my husband's active duty Navy, and I've been married into it for almost 15 years. And so I am very used to the way that things function within the Navy. And what I am learning is that not every service branch functions like the Navy. And it is fascinating to me that with an all volunteer force, there isn't more DoD regulated things like those spouse positions, because there are some branches of service, where the spouses do get paid to run a spouse group, or there are spouses who are paid to run certain portions of like military life, like the Marines have the DRCs. And the deployment readiness coordinators, those are paid positions, and those people manage like, I'm going to screw up the word because we're not a Marine Corps family. But, you know, they manage like whole groups of Marines and their families. And it's fascinating to me that the Marine Corps is part of the Department of the Navy, and they have paid positions, and we don't and so, you know, I think that's what's hard, too, when you look at this holistically is like, not everybody's the same. And it's like, well, but we're all doing the job, right. Like, you know, our active duty service member is a volunteer, or volunteered to be a service member, and we're all subsequently connected, you know, so why is there such a wide range of how, you know, spouse groups function, or paid versus unpaid? And then largely, I mean, the emphasis still is largely on volunteer service. And I've always been fascinated by the fact that we have an all volunteer active duty force. And also then, the DoD relies so heavily on all the families being volunteers,

but I have so many thoughts.

So go ahead.

As, as someone who started off reporting on these topics, there were some times like these moments are like, you can't unsee things, right. You can't unsee the themes throughout and we've touched upon some of them, like, where do we belong? And if you're not on duty, maybe you're kind of secondary to everything else, which not saying that that's wrong. It's just what it is. But there are things that I've seen along the way when it definitely touches upon that reliance upon unpaid labor. I'm actually writing a book about this. So like this There's a history that influences why each service branch does differently. Just a little tidbit without giving too much of the whole book away. The there were certain traditions that, you know, the military, especially the Navy, they were often in earlier classes of Midshipman, they would be sent to the Naval Academy from the upper, you know, upper classes of the northeasterners. And so there was a heavy tradition on, you know, protocols and etiquette and the things that were important to that no group of people became embedded into the culture of the Navy, the army did similar things where they would take aristocratic women, and send them off to West Point, to then help them with their advocate to kind of have them date. And so there's this big backstory into so many of these things that we just don't even realize are part of the fabric of what the military is today. But it influences both positively and negatively our experiences. So, for example, we talked about how are these support groups? Who's looking at them? Who is looking at the Marine Corps and looking to see if this this paid position is working out for them? And does that make sense to then transition to the other branches? Well, in doing my research, no one is looking at this from the higher levels. And so this is through interviews with leadership. And so no one is because it has been seen as this is the social group, it's it doesn't serve an operational function, because it isn't something that is seen as an operational function. Why would it be tracked at this highest level, but the reality is, we know that if you recruit the service member, but you retain the family, that mentality, you know, we need to be looking at the systems that support our families, because I think we talk about a lot of things in this community, there's so many resources that the communication is lacking. So for example, you could go onto a DOD website and never be able to find the source of information that you want. But if someone gives you that insight, you need to search for DoD Instruction 12345, or whatever it is, then you know exactly what to look for. But without that word of mouth, without that support system that existed before, you're really kind of searching blind. And so there's a lot of things that there's a reason I didn't write an article about this. It's a book. And so there's a lot to it. It's a very nuanced and very difficult problem. But it is something I'm glad we're having a conversation about step one.

Yeah, I really love how you followed your curiosity. And you're like, Where does this even stem from? Like, why are spouses being in a sense, like, treated this way or neglected to a certain extent, or not even like valued as what you said, like an operational function, like the organization's operational function, it's more perceived as a social group, as you said, and I also found it interesting. In one of the articles that you wrote from military families magazine, titled future military spouse clubs must change to survive. You mentioned here that even 10 years ago, 10, plus years ago, these groups were called wives clubs. So tell us a little bit about that history. Because I'm very curious to know that like, I think today, we tried to be inclusive when we say spouse, you know, but even a decade ago, it's interesting to think that these groups are called wives clubs.

I mean, so I, I could show you guys, but I can't show the listeners. But I have all these books, their historical books from the 40s that talk about, you know, the Air Force wife, the army wife, the Navy wife, but then we're also looking at the fact that there are books that are handbooks, and now the army has one that says the army spouse handbook, and I think actually, the comedian Ashley, and I'm gonna mispronounce her last name. But she recently talked about this on a real and how, yeah, but it's like 400 pages of a book that we're supposed to be doing, even though you've changed the name on the front to spouse, does that make it like modern? No, it doesn't. It's only half of the conversation, you know, that the other half of the conversation is, so we talk in the book about, you need to recognize that there's dependence upon unpaid labor, you need to reduce that reliance, and you need to redistribute that. And so how you can't just change spouse and leave it at that you have to look at how military spouses are regarded within this community. And I think sometimes we are dependents or depend us. And you know, when we change the language, that is a huge part, it is a huge thing. Changing spouse is good. It recognizes the contributions of our male spouses which are huge, and they're asked to do the same things that we are as female spouses, but it opens up the door are two other dynamics and it's not just man and woman. And that's the stereotypical couple and all those things. So it's, that is great. But it needs to also go into well, what is the word dependent mean? And I'll tell you, it's from the French word means depend re, which is to hang from. So if you, as a military spouse are too heavy of a weight, you will damage the service member who has to be super strong to hold up your weight. So if we're talking about changing the conversation, it can't just be on the surface, we have to understand the messages we're sending, for example, dependent is still a negative message, even though we've fixed the gendered messaging. And so it's not just a one and done, it is a conversation that has to be had across the board. And it can't just be a gendered conversation as it relates to active duty service members, female having female service members, it's the spouse has to because there's, you can't look at us, as you know, this is the active duty female service member, and this is the female spouse, we're all in this life. And we have a different experiences. Absolutely. But if you're going to fix the gendered issue within the military, it can't just be for the active duty service members, it has to be for the whole community. And so changing Army Wives to Army spouse is a great first step is what I'll say.

Yay, step one, check that off.

Right. And it happened as a result in the 90s. To that started to change, where you'd start to see it. But every service branch changed it in its own timing and way. And to be really honest, there is very little history collected on these moments for our families in our community. There's not like a military spouse historian, there's no glues, we have individuals who have these amazing stories to share. But it takes like, a lot of work to kind of compile that and no one else is really looking at our community.

Yeah, it gets me to think about the reality is that we've been a volunteer service for, what, 50 years now. And you think that there would be Yeah, give or take, right? Genuine, just like, I don't know, maybe around there. And I was like, I'm trying to do the math in my head. But you know, it's,

I guess, the 70s. I think they officially removed it in the 70s. They changed that.

Yeah, one thing that you haven't mentioned in your previous article here is like, it's interesting how this is a volunteer service. And yet, I feel like all this pressure or lack of resources for the spouse, or even to be able to find it easily other than word of mouth makes it difficult for families to want to stay in the military, especially go for career. And so that's what kind of came to mind as we're having this conversation of genuine. We talked about handbooks recently with a past guest. So I'm sure you have thoughts about about this.

Oh, well, I mean, that's what one, this is one of our podcasts where I wish the video was recorded. Because if our listeners could have seen our faces is Jen, you know, through some of those facts out there, I think they would be like, oh, man, oh, yeah. So they also would have seen me staring at the bookshelves behind me because I have some of those manuals from the 40s. One, because they're historical documents. And two, I was once tasked with updating the Navy one, and I very much like Gen like came to like a kind of an impasse of like, what makes these still relevant? And if they are still relevant, what do you put in them to make them useful for the people who were supposed to be using them? Because the comedian Jen mentioned, she actually talks about like, doesn't most people get them as gag gifts? Like, what are you supposed to do with a manual about how to live life as a military spouse? Everyone's experiences broad, you know, I mean, Jen and I are both Navy spouses. She lives in Monterey, I've never lived in Monterey. And the job your service member does changes your perspective on being a military spouse, and then you get into branches and things like that. And it's just there is no one size fits all. So, you know, even in changing the language of those books, like really, do they fit, you know, what's the better? What would be the better thing as a support for military spouses and families, you know, and it kind of goes back to that role. The group's like where did they come in? How do they play a part in this support? You know, and then that whole like dependent thing? Holy moly, that's a whole other. So other ballgame,

we're all stumped there. Like it's like, it's dependent like where do I how do I even how to even respond to that in like a witty way?

Right, right. Yeah, I mean, it's very much like that, again, one of those very antiquated things when sure when you got married and you were or a single income family and the single income was the active duty service member. Like, I can see why they thought that was a good idea. Let's fast forward a couple, you know, decades. And we have all of these, you know, super qualified, well educated spouses, many whom you know, are cash, really hate that every time, we have to say, are fortunate to have a job. That is a pet peeve. But really, like, we're still dependent.

So the whole, like reasons even talk about any of this, there's always like a so what, okay, so we have all of this, you know, research this, you know, we're looking at things that seem really negative, right. But the reason this is good is because we're looking at it. And it's a really amazing opportunity for the Department of Defense, to see it, to recognize it to change and correct it, why not call family members, family members, instead of dependent, there are so many easy fixes that send signals that make people feel like they belong, and that there are opportunities, and there are people who are leaders are receptive to those things. But if no one has raised their hand to say, this is a problem for us, like we don't see ourselves this way. Or we don't like these books, because we see the senior spouses posting all these parties instead of pursuing their own careers. And reality is set the precedent that you want to have for the people behind you. Don't feel pressured to host that command party, to Hey, spouse, I would prefer that you just delegate that to someone within the command, because if it's important enough for the command, why should a spouse, military spouse do it? And then that's what some of the things that we have to just break these traditions, because sometimes these these gendered moments are they're hiding in tradition, it's not that they're malicious, no one's trying to hurt us. So the so what here is to recognize it so that we can inform our leaders like where we need to see change, and one of those things is, okay, so if we make these little changes these words, we change dependent, we do all of those things. The military is a testing ground for the larger society. So if we can correct gendered policies within the military, then it sets a really amazing precedent for the rest of the country. In the past, people have said, you can't legislate hearts and minds. And I actually disagree with that somewhat, because I don't really care. If a person who is trolling the internet, what they think about me as much as I don't want them to have the ability to control my actions. And so if I just want the thing like, okay, you can think all the bad things about me as you want as an altar espouse, but I really would like to be able to go into an office and without my spouse to renew my own ID, what the heck, you know, why do I not count enough, you have tears, you can look up in tears, that I'm still married to my spouse. That's the legislating that we can do, we can change those moments, we can't change what people think about us, that's fine. Like, let them think what they're gonna think. But let's elevate our roles, our military spouse rules to make it so that we make the easy things easier. You know, it doesn't have to be this hard. We don't have to make it us versus them. And so what of all of this information is, we can make it better, we don't have to let it stay. In this tradition, we just have to come up with our own solutions, as military spouses, which we are really good at. Like, I have spoken to so many military spouses who have all of these amazing solutions to a lot of the problems that we're talking about. And so it's not my ideas, it's our ideas. And so how do we just get them together, and then communicate them properly.

I love how you said the well. So what because on our show, we tend to cover a lot of heavy topics. And I tend to try to play the more lighthearted personality on the show and try to add humor if I'm, I'm not really good at it, but I try. And but I do but but at the same time, I also recognize that I don't want that part of me to like, minimize an issue. I want to give like an issue, like the space that it deserves. And so I'm really glad that we opened up with the issues. And and now you're kind of turning it for us to say well, so what what does this mean, knowing what we know now?

I had to love that. So what? And I was reminded, you know, Jen said like, oh gosh, all these military spouses have like such good ideas. And it just makes me made my brain like start turning on. You know, Jen is also an AFI M soy of 2022. And we met in person back in May and had some of these conversations. But it makes me think, like, again, we talked about all the resources available to us, and it's like they're all available because people saw a gap and created whatever this thing was to fill that gap. And I think what I see, you know, as a military spouse is that at this point, there are almost so many filling gaps that that in itself is overwhelming. And that's where like some of this policy stuff could come in and go, this is a great idea. How do we adopt this DoD wide and take it, you know, nonprofits spaces great. And also, like, there are so many, it's hard to like whittle them down to know which one you need. Whereas if some of them were more policy wide, they would be able to help the larger majority and be easier to find. And I think that's where, like, my hope goes now, like, I've been in the room with a lot of these people who are the gap fillers, and it's great. And we have a lot of people that now are coming together and crossing over their advocacy to create a bigger, broader thing. But until it's really seen as like, Oh, these people filled the gap because it was there. Versus like, they like kind little pat on the head, like, look at you guys doing your cute little thing to like, fill all these gaps we have in policy. You know, I think that that's where the so what goes for me is like we do have a plethora of like great ideas and excellent advocates. And now what do we do with those things other than continue to start nonprofits that then compete for each other for money?

I'm going to ask, like, ask the question, does that sound anything like free program evaluation to you, like so this is another example of free labor, because the military spouses are filling this gap. It is they perform essentially free program evaluation, the Department of Defense programming, and that's all it is. It is it is one of those things like because we step up, because we're the ones experiencing it. And that's how nonprofits are typically formed. So that's not unusual. The issue is that we don't have the ability to change DoD programming. So we do it our own way. And then it becomes band aids, a lot of band aids, instead of fixing the underlying issues, which just takes a lot of effort, it has happened. But it's not the norm. And like you said, then you end up swimming and resources. And that's kind of, it's harder for families. And so, you know, my advice to people is always don't start another nonprofit. Find someone who's doing the work that you believe in, and then join them and help them. But you're right. There's a lot of nonprofits, it's really hard to navigate.

I mean, I think that's great. And I, I love your charge there of like, find somebody that's already doing the work you want to do and join them. Because that is the bigger gap fill versus one more nonprofit. I mean, I've worked on a variety of boards and committees, and one of them is, you know, funding for local nonprofits. And it's like, Hey, can we get applications from 15 organizations essentially doing the same thing, they all have a different name. And they one of them might serve this handful of people. But it's like, there is only so much money to go around. It's like, if there are 15 nonprofits applying for the same pot of money. I'm just gonna say San Diego, because that's where I was in San Diego, that are all providing, you know, military kid programming, for example, then that would be like you said, you know, that's where a lot of spouses are really doing the work for DOD of like, Hey, guys, this is where we have a gap. Here are 15 people just in California, like applying for a set amount of money like and one They either can't all get it or they're going to get such a small amount, it's not actually going to fund the programming they want to fund. Yeah,

just hearing you both talk. You know, clearly, it always seems like there's this extremities of there's two extremes. There's either not enough resources, or like way too many resources. And so I think what I want to do for today, Jennifer is to, you know, for people that are listening to our conversation today, let's talk about like action steps that they can take today. And I know that a big thing that you have been an advocate of is like redefining how can we help our military families, military spouses, feel like they belong. I know, that's been a big part of your work. So let's dive into that more now. And maybe share like, what you have been doing on your end, and what families find members can do today. And of course, I know we want to push for policy as well. But let's start with those first to

know. And so my work was really just focused on trying to understand spouse groups and the role but the themes that came out of it, like the data that came out of that survey that I did in 2021 it was like made 2021 Was that the more people were plugged into any sort of community the more you know, positive their outcomes were which is not groundbreaking. You know, this is something we can kind of see Throughout our Blue Star Family Research, and it's just confirmed, it's just it was one of those things where I wanted to understand also the role of, of participating and volunteering in these groups and how valued people felt by certain members of the community. So for example, like, How valuable is your contribution? Do you think? Does your spouse value it, do your other military spouse friends value, your contribution does the command leadership value it does senior leadership value it and so the further away, you know, there's, there's those close ties and then there's like those, you know, further away their ties further away, you got to the relationship, the less valued people felt by those groups. And so, you know, of course, you know, if you want to feel valued, then you're making connections in your local community. And whether that's an I'll tell you, spouse groups were not the only form of valuable connection, it was worked for some people, some people did not find that to be fun, I'm and I've done a lot of qualitative interviews since conducting that survey. And so that's where some of that information comes out of is that I wasn't male spouse, and I went to a spouse group. And I didn't feel like any of the items or activities were catered for me, or it didn't feel like I felt welcomed, like a name. But then the activities weren't at the times I could go. And so I just found connection and a running group or whatever it was. And so it doesn't matter which area you find connection, as long as you're finding connection and something to plug you into the resources that are available, whether that's an online Facebook group, which so many people it's not the end all be all an app never should be, but it gives you a starting point of like what to look for. And then hopefully, throughout your time, you do get a trustworthy, you know, maybe mentor or friend who has been there to point you towards the right resources. So the things people can do now is just getting connected into the group that fits them and their personality and their lifestyle. You know, if you're we're having issues finding employment, there are groups out there that you can plug into, to advocate and they can give you advice. And if you're looking to start a small business, they can help you there, there's always a resource for whatever your circumstances. So find something that fits you and plug in because it was those points of connection that helps people feel valuable within their communities, in whatever way that would be. That'd be like how you could start as an individual, not exactly like, groundbreaking. But it is the data that confirms that that's a great way for people to feel valuable within the military, spouse community. You know, when

I hear about community, I think about how people used to always tell me that, Hey, John, you're stressed, you should meditate, you should breathe, and it's something I like detested for like a very long time. And like genuine knows, I'm like, I hate meditating. But like, it's like, once you get into it, it's like you realize how fruitful it is. And I feel like community can be the same way like everyone knows that. It's better to be in community, everyone knows it's better to be connected, but to actually put in the practice, and to kind of find your tribe, even if it's not amongst the military spouse groups, as you sort of hinted, like, so long as you find it, that's like, the most important thing. And I like how you said that you feel valued, you feel like you're contributing, and you also feel like you're getting access to resources to make to make whatever situation circumstance, you're in a whole lot better. And that's really good advice to give to the direct listener who is like, well, what can I do right now? How can I, like reframe my situation? And how can I make better use of where I'm at right now in, you know, how do I prevent feeling isolated, you know, etc, etc.

I think that's excellent advice. And it reminds me of a mentor I have, who was a huge proponent of the both and like, both join whatever military group is around, whether it be the Facebook group for the area, or the Family Readiness Group or whatever is available, and also go out in town. Because the truth is, is like this military life, in regards to a life is fairly short lived. I mean, you have plenty of people who don't retire out and even those that do, I mean, you're looking at a 20 to 30 year snippet, and then it comes to an end and similar to what we talked about in the beginning of this conversation where like, once you get out there's this real like misplaced sense of belonging or you don't feel like you belong, having that both and while you are an active duty military spouse is a huge benefit. I think and I have seen in this mentor of mine their her husband is now retired and you know, she's like, I'm loving life but it It's because she didn't put all our eggs in like military spouse basket, she went to the gym and, you know, volunteered in her church. And, you know, I have found the same the same for me that I need the both and because I find, you know, the best military related resources do come from the other, you know, people that live this lifestyle, but also like, knowing where like the firework show last night, like came from the local Virginia Beach page. You know, I mean, so there's, I think it's both and you can find belonging in all of them, you know, as someone who's lived in a completely civilian duty station, and then lived in two very heavily military duty stations, it is knowing how to and belonging to both sets that I really think, make this life both more interesting and more helpful. I mean, you need people who aren't also I mean, it's great that we have neighbors who like, aren't military, you know, why, because largely their home. You know, I can count on, you know, just this last week, how often I've called the same neighbor, because she and her husband are home at night, and I have needed help. And so finding that wherever, wherever you can, and not sticking specifically to one or the other, I think is,

is excellent. And I think it's important to note, like if you want to participate, great, participate, volunteer, volunteerism is great, and helps you there's so many benefits to volunteerism, don't do it because you think you're going to help your spouse's career or because you feel pressured to do it, or any of the things that are perpetuating what we were talking about earlier, where it's like, this is not what this is not what the DoD wants, either. No one wants that. So if that's not you, if participating is not who you are in that group, don't do it, find another group where you feel like this is what you want to be doing. Because reality, I hope, your participation is not going to positively or negatively impact your service member. So participate if you if you find that that's a place you thrive and your community is there and your tribe is there. I think that that's more the reality. I hope that's been my reality is it's been my tribe, not like oh, because Jen Barnhill is, you know, going to hang out with a friend, that means my husband is going to get a promotion or something. These are there's so many misconceptions, I think that we just need to continue to like live the life we would want people behind us to be able to like, come up into,

yep, this actually reminds me of one of my friends who she affectionately called a lot of the wives that she grew up around as trophy wives where you know, it's very much like being a socialite and keeping up with the Joneses and trying to keep up with appearances. But it doesn't necessarily mean that it's something you actually want to do. But because of, you know, maybe the the place that you live in, or the community that you're in, there's sort of this pressure to do that. And so I love Jennifer, how you're giving a spouse's permission to be like, Hey, if you don't want to be part of a group, don't be part of group, if you want to be part of a riding club, be part of the reading club, you know, like wherever you can find your connection. And that actually gets me to reflect on why I enjoy podcasting for our community. Because I am someone who enjoys like one to one or one to two people interaction and to be in groups myself is a lot for me. It's very overstimulating to the point where I'm usually just kind of like the quiet one in the group, because I don't want to like fight over like the extroverts and stuff like that. But I think I have at least found my place in the military community in podcasting in amplifying the stories and kind of what we mentioned earlier, not creating another nonprofit. But all that being said, Jennifer, you have been hinting in our entire conversation that you're putting together a book, collecting these stories and resources, solutions from people you've been interviewing in our community. I remember when we were talking the pre interview, you had mentioned that this felt like a sense of responsibility for you to write this book. It was more out of feeling more so than I would say anything else. Can you talk about that and how this book has felt like, you know, maybe as hard as it is, or however you want to describe it. It's important for you to get this book done and to get this information out there.

Yeah. So as I said in the beginning, like it started with one person, my you know, my friends and so it started she was the spark to this project for me. But every single person in the military spouse community I've ever interviewed, or spoken to has been brave enough to share things about their lives that are exposing that could hurt them. People have told me things about their food insecurity, which is like really, people are working on getting out of the shame of that and so it is my I feel responsible For these stories, they're not my stories, the solutions are not all my solutions. They're like a community that I keep saying to people, like, this is not my story, like I did not set out to write a book, like, I didn't have this on my plan, you know, God or whoever, you know, like, put it in my path. And it's just one of those things, I can't unsee I can't unhear these stories anymore. And I care so much that we fix these things. And I also have, I've had the honor of meeting with senior leaders as well, and working with partners and promise and other parts of my job as a reporter, they are caring, they do want to fix the problems that are there. But they also have limitations within their jobs. They can't like our, our Navy leaders, for example. They're not the ones setting, you know, congressional funding budgets, you know, like, they're not doing that part of it. So they need us, and we need them. And so I feel it is my responsibility to see like, both sides, like I see what the leadership is trying to do, I see what our families are going through, and can't not write it. And it is heavy. And it feels overwhelming, to be honest with you. Because, you know, when you have people crying on interviews, and you know, they feel like they don't matter. They feel like they're a pain, that they're alone in their pain. And so when I get to talk with them, and I get to say, Well, you're not the only person that I've spoken to us, Tony, this, this is your one of sadly, many who are going through whatever the circumstances are. And so it is my responsibility, as a military spouse and a journalist, to take those stories, and to tell them to people so that they are can be changed. And so there is no smoking gun, there is no finger pointing, everyone is in this together, we're all in this community together. And so I'm just excited for when this eventually does get you knows, you know, it's still like I'm still researching and learning from our families. But I'm excited to see how the DoD will come around it because I think that they do want to help our families, they do recognize the contributions of military spouses and military children, they just don't necessarily, they need that data backed solution. And that's what I'm hoping to be able to present in this research. Well, kudos to you, Jennifer, that is a lot of work and a great responsibility. And I just want to say that I commend you. And it sounds like it's not easy to write about this, it gets me to think about like, what I'm currently working on about this, the Survivor Benefit Plan that no one wants to talk about, because it's a morbid talk. But knowing what I know, it's kind of like, I need to write about it. So I kind of feel that sense of responsibility that you have with your book. And I feel like I can relate.

I'm just really grateful for the work that you do. I'm grateful that you really enjoy research and data, I come at writing from a much more personal bent, and I think both have so much place in the world of of changing how things are and how to make them better. I'm really excited to see what comes of this book and how it you know, changes things for the people coming up behind us. So thank you for the work that you do.

Thank you. And I'm just to be clear, this is not my story. And I will continue to say that like I might be putting it together. But this is not my story. And yeah, you know, like, I appreciate you saying that. But there would be no story if people weren't willing to be vulnerable and sharing their stories. So, you know, it's just, I'm the receptacle receive all the stories. And we are going to come up with our own solutions as we always do.

That is the journalists reporter speaking. Here. Yeah. Jennifer, as we wrap up, I know that a lot of our conversation has been about the importance of belonging and our military community. And I know that you don't want to make it about you. But if you don't mind me just doing it this one time and asking you as we wrap up, that'd be my only question. I promise. Do you feel like the work you have been doing at this point, has really helped you feel like you belong in our

community? Yes, it has cemented my feeling of belonging for sure. It's now part of who I am. Like what I'm doing. Yeah. Before I did feel like I belong because I found my tribe, right. So I found people who were like me, who inspired me who gave up themselves for other people. So I already felt like I belonged in that sense of friendship, but as far as purpose that this has been more purposeful, and it's it doesn't have to be this like everyone can find something that's immersion, you know, some whatever, like Jenny, you know, you like to try I until your story like that, as you know how you belong, like everyone has their own way. Right? Yeah, yeah. So yes, yeah.

It's like your way is to amplify these stories and these concerns and these issues in this book. And hopefully, someone will be able to pick up this book and advocate for, you know, military spouses, because of your book that reminds me of when we interviewed Heath Jennylyn. And how her book, even though she is a civilian, she wrote very heavily about the legal wives, the, you know, the wives who brought home their husbands from the Vietnam War. And it's because of that book that she wrote that they're going to hopefully we don't know, at the time of this recording, will be creating a memorial of the League of wives in Coronado, which would be really excited. Oh, my gosh.

She doesn't maybe one. Oh, no. But she's helped me on the way. She's my mentor. I would be like, you might not know this, but I just told someone on the podcast that you are, in fact,

there you go. I'm gonna tell him to listen to this part of the recording. I was like, Hey, I don't know if Jennifer wants you to know this. BTW. Yeah, no, he, he was amazing. And I kind of see that. I'm hoping for you to have a similar experience, if anything. So, Jennifer, I think we had a really awesome conversation today. I want to thank you for taking the time to be here and just talk about your wonderful work, and letting me reference some of your articles that are out there. Let let our listeners know if they want to reach out to you connect with you. How can they do that?

Well, LinkedIn is really good. Because it has a lot of my writing links there. It's a great place professionally to connect with me as far as you're interested in, like the advocacy side of things, or connection to resources. You know, I do have a Facebook page if we serve to. Also same Instagram, Twitter, I think mine is like old I as a writer, I should be better on Twitter, because it's apparently something that is required writers but I'm

I'm here to say no. No, it's so hard.

Also, because I'm a writer, also Twitter's hard.

And this could be the side. It's like my former protests, like I'm from New Jersey, and from born in the 80s. And so I kind of want to have to do this. Like, I don't want to prove that I'm witty, like on social media. Like nor do I want to jump into

the dumpster fire that most days. Yeah, seriously hurts my soul a little bit. Yeah,

I feel like I'm talking to my people. Because I haven't posted on social media since like Christmas. So it's been a game changer. I mean, other than LinkedIn, I am active on LinkedIn, I will say that, but I don't post on my personals anymore, just because it just seems fleeting. And it's like, if you want to be part of my personal life, be part of my personal life. You know, like, also,

if, if, if your listeners want to connect to the podcast, it's disruptive storytelling with military changemakers put on by partners in promise, which is an advocacy organization focused on helping military students in special education. And I'm the lead researcher and chief operating officer so you can connect with me there too. So anywhere. I'm happy to help or hear your story if you want to share your story, so feel free to reach out.

Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Jennifer. And just a quick shout out to Michelle Norman, who was on our show a couple episodes back. So she really talked in depth what partners and promises all about. So when gentleman had mentioned that you also are part of the board. I was like, Oh, cool. This is like kind of an extension of, of, of the nonprofit here. Yeah, Jennifer, it's been such a pleasure having you on our show. Thank you again so much for joining us well to our listeners. Thank you all so much for joining us. We hope you enjoy today's conversation if you want to get a hold of Jennifer Barnhill. You'll have her contact information in the show notes. And with that said, thank you all so much and we'll chat with you in the next episode. Tune in next time.