This episode focuses on the relationship between God and the universe. More specifically we will address:

• The problem of evil
• Why naturalism makes the problem of evil worse
• Why the church has sometimes come across as anti-sex
• Theism vs. naturalism and eastern thought on this question
• Is the ultimate nature of reality personal or material, and what difference does this make?
• Will we have physical bodies after death and resurrection?
• and more

Well, good morning, Daniel.

2

Good morning, Nathan.

3

Really excited to get

into this podcast today.

4

Yeah, me too.

5

I'm a little overwhelmed though.

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Yeah.

7

We've got some deep stuff

to talk about today.

8

Oh, so deep.

9

Yeah.

10

we're continuing the

discussion on knowing God.

11

And how God is distinctly and

categorically different than we are

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as our creator and us being creation.

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And so just as we get into the discussion,

I'm wondering if you can kind of give

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us a brief overview of what we talked

about in the past episode by way of

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introducing today's topic of God and his

relationship to creation and all that.

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Yeah, let's do it.

17

We began talking about

the knowledge of God.

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Acknowledging that we can't

really know God in His fullness,

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except as He reveals Himself.

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So He can reveal true things about Him.

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But there is a deeper sense in which

I think we're far too casual in our

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talk of God and about knowing God.

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And we forget what Kierkegaard

called the infinite qualitative

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distinction between us and God.

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Infinite distinction.

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Qualitative, not quantitative distinction.

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We talked last episode of some of

the ways that we are distinct from

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God, or that He is distinct from us.

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For example, we experience things

in this universe that He does not,

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or at least not in the same way.

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We experience time and

space, whereas He does not.

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He created time and space

when He created the universe.

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We experience limits where He is infinite.

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We experience change.

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So we change through time and

through space, and he does that.

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Change is part of this universe, as

it were, not what he is in himself.

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We experience the laws of

physics, for example, entropy.

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We experience temporal

sequentiality and causation.

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So when we talk about causation, we

mean one thing happens before another.

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That causes it to be or to change.

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But if God is a temporal, that

means not only is He eternal,

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but He is outside of time.

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That whatever causality He

experiences or does isn't that kind.

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And then we experience duration,

extension, not only space,

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but also extension in time.

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Whereas God has ase, which

is a fancy Latin word that

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means God exists in Himself.

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He does not exist with a body within

a space time matrix like we do.

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So, we talked about that last time.

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I'm not going to expand upon that.

51

The last episode, we focused

on how this creates challenges

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in our knowledge of God.

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And we gave examples of how then we deal

with that or how we respond to that.

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Yeah.

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And if your brain is already

starting to hurt, you're not alone.

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This is some deep stuff, but it's good.

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And I remember us talking

about how God is different.

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I mean, he, he still interacts with

the universe and he can come into time

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and into space and that kind of thing.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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But fundamentally, he doesn't exist in

that space or in that time continuum.

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So we were talking about then,

okay, how do we know God?

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Anything more on that

before I move us into today?

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Darrell Bock Well, just one analogy

that can help us put our mind around

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that, but also introduce today, is

one that we have talked about before.

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If you can imagine that I create something

like a terrarium or an aquarium, which

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I did, I have a couple aquariums down,

and all the things within that aquarium,

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the rocks, the fish, the plants, the

snails, whatever else is in there,

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they all exist within that realm, that

box as it were, that box of glass and

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plastic, whatever else is in there.

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But I don't.

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So I'm existing in a

fundamentally different way.

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I'm outside of their universe as it is.

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All that they experience.

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Again, it's not a perfect analogy.

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No analogy is.

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But to me, that gets the idea across.

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That when we're talking about God, we're

not talking about something we make up.

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But we're also not talking about

someone who is simply part of the

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furniture of this universe in that way.

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There's going to be a fundamental

distinction between everything

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within the box of creation,

everything here and the creator.

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He can interact with this universe just

like I can interact with the aquarium,

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but at the same time he is independent

of it in a way that nothing else is.

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Yeah.

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That's been a super helpful

illustration to carry through this.

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So thank you for, for that.

90

So we want to continue to unpack the

relationship between creator and creation.

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How we conceive of the

universe or the cosmos.

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So, can you go ahead and help us

understand the relationship between

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creator and creation or, to use

your analogy, what's in the box

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and what's outside of the box?

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Or who's it?

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What's in the box and

who's outside of the box?

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And really, this is one way of

stating the fundamental issue

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of philosophy is what is real.

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And everything else is going

to flow out of that, right?

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And when you think of the relationship

between God and the universe, to

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me it seems like there's three

basic categories that human thought

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has flowed into or has developed.

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One of those you might call

the independent universe.

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So this is the idea that there

is a real physical universe,

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but it's not dependent upon God.

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So we talked about this a little

bit in one of the first episodes.

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This would be coming from

the naturalistic worldview.

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Right.

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You call it naturalism, the idea

that only the natural world exists.

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There's no God or angels or

anything outside the natural world.

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Or you could call it materialism.

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The idea that only material things

exist, only things made of matter.

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Okay.

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So the fundamental thing is that it's

independent from a God or creator, right?

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There's a box, but there's

no one who made the box.

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Okay.

117

All right.

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So let's think about

that here for a second.

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Under this conception, you have a

physical universe that is eternal.

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Now, at some point, this material

universe exploded into what we would call

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the present structure of the universe.

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But you have to posit here,

basically, that matter is eternal.

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Okay.

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I think the only alternative, if you're

committed to this worldview, is to

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believe that something came from nothing.

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That somehow there was not

matter, and then somehow matter

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just started to come into being.

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Which seems irrational to

us, in the deepest sense.

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One of the fundamental concepts

of our reality, and I certainly

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think it's right, is that It's

the, nothing comes from nothing

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and something comes from something.

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I'm not sure I'm saying that well.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, that you, you

can't get something from nothing.

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Yeah.

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Right.

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If all of a sudden I created,

poof, a rabbit out of nothing, you

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would view that as magic, right?

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Yeah, a gimmick, yeah.

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Yeah.

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You would not view that as a real thing.

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It doesn't work according to all that we

know about science or anything like that.

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Yeah.

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If I thought it was real and not a

gimmick, I'd probably have to suggest

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that it was somehow supernatural.

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Right.

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And you can't go there on

this viewpoint because There

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is nothing outside of nature.

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So, the alternative there, and

where most people go, is to

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view matter itself as eternal.

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So at some point, for reasons we

don't understand and probably never

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will, that matter exploded And

the big bang into the universe of

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supernovas and galaxies and stars and

planets and life that we have now.

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But none of this was planned.

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No one planned it.

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It just happened.

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Okay.

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So one ontological perspective of the

universe is it's independent from God.

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Now what are some challenges

with that philosophical

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challenges with that perspective?

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Just kind of briefly, cause I know

we've talked about it in the past,

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but this is helpful for helping us.

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Think through the Christian perspective

that creation was created by a

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creator being which has real life

implications But before we get there

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again, what does that mean to have

that conception of the universe?

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Well, it means a couple things.

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First of all, if matter is

eternal, then personality isn't.

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So matter exists before life Therefore

it exists before personality.

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Therefore it exists before

purpose, truth, beauty, and love.

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Okay, say more.

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I'm not sure I understand that.

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Okay, under this perspective,

matter is eternal.

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Uh huh.

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At some point, without a purpose,

because again, there's no one to

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purpose it, the matter formed to

the universe that we have now.

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At some stage of that development, life

occurred that had rationality of some

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kind, that we have the idea of purpose,

we have the idea of truth, we have the

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idea of right and wrong, of ethics.

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But all these things are not

fundamental to the universe, they

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are specific to one species that has

arisen within this, this, uh, chance

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developing universe, as it were.

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So all those things are not ultimate.

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Matter is ultimate.

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Okay.

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Now, the second thing that

happens here, then, is that you

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have a real problem with evil.

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And I know a lot of our atheist friends

look at Christianity or religion

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as a whole and say, you know, you

guys have a real problem with evil.

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And we do have a conceptual problem with

evil, explaining that, seeing how that

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works together with a good creator God,

but you don't get rid of that problem by

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going into naturals and we make it worse.

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Okay.

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Say more on that.

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Well, for two reasons.

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Number one, you make evil indefinable,

you make evil indefinable.

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And what I mean by that is.

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The very concept that we are using

to describe good and evil implies

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some standard, some purpose, some

rightness beyond human experience.

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But you've already denied

by your worldview that

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there is anything like that.

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So you make evil undefinable because

you're going to have to use words and

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categories from a different worldview

that's inconsistent with yours.

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To develop that idea.

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And the second thing that happens

is evil becomes meaningless.

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So there is no meaning for evil,

either natural evil or human evil.

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There's no meaning because

ultimately, meaning is part of

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the structure of humanity itself.

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Not something inherent

within this universe.

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Not something that can account for evil.

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And then along with that,

you have no solution to it.

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Evil is eternal.

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So the wrongs that have been

done will never be redressed.

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But also you have no hope then that the

future will be any less evil than today.

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You have the idea of human

progress, perhaps, but you don't

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really have a foundation for that.

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And if anything, if you look at human

history, I wouldn't say we're at a

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progression towards less evil that

the 20th century, the most recent

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that we've had full experience of

would point the opposite direction.

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So evil is eternal.

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There's no one to intervene, to bring

justice or to bring an end to the evil.

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So, that's why I say, if you go with

the naturalism route, that we have

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an independent universe that's not

created with purpose, then you have

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a deeper problem with evil than you

do on the theistic world, do you?

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Gotcha.

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Gotcha.

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Okay.

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So, that helps us understand

the independent universe.

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Right.

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And, and then, in our notes we've

got here, there's another alternative

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conception, and let me just briefly

interject here that if this stuff

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needs more unpacking, check out our

previous episodes that we've done.

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Um, the four worldviews and ontology or

what is real metaphysics, whichever one we

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called it, but check that out because we

kind of unpacked this a little bit more,

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but this is helpful to remember this and

to bring it back into our attention as we

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think through creator and creation, right?

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Okay.

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So what's the second alternative

beside an independent universe?

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Well, this one's a little bit

harder to put a label on, but I

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think the idea will become clear.

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And that is the idea that God and

the universe are really the same

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thing in different ways of looking

at the same thing or different

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ways of describing the same thing.

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I almost call this the emanating

universe because that captures

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one major strand of thought here.

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So emanating means that it comes

out of God naturally, not by a

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free choice, but simply because it

overflows from Him, like a fountain

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overflows from its source, as it were.

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Probably the best analogy of this and

one that's, that's used quite a bit

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is the idea of the light and the heat

from the sun emanating from the sun.

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So you have the sun there, right?

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In this case, the sun

would be analogous to God.

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Okay.

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And then what comes out of the sun?

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Light and heat.

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Light, heat, radiation.

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We would call it that.

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Yeah.

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Right.

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Energy.

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Yeah.

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Is that a purposeful act of the sun?

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No, it just is part of

its essence, I guess.

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Yeah, exactly.

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So under this viewpoint,

reality that we experience here.

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Um, is it some way in emanation

is an overpull of the essence of

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the one, however you define that.

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Okay.

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So this is kind of like reminding

me of monism and Eastern thought.

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Yes, exactly.

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Okay.

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But the point here is that it's not

a purposeful, loving act of creation.

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It just is, I guess.

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Exactly.

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Exactly.

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You see this in Greek thought.

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So you mentioned Eastern thought

and yes, definitely, but even before

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most Eastern thought was devolved.

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You have this in Greek thought, in

various philosophers, but especially, uh,

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Parmenides, who was a little bit before

Plato, he talked about this quite a bit.

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And he says, whatever is, is.

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And the sense being that

nothing really changes.

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It only appears to change on the surface.

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There's only one essential

being that kind of emanates in

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different ways or flows out.

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It was developed a little bit more

fully by Plato, but especially in

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Neoplatonism, Uh, Plotinus, you have

this idea being fully developed.

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You have these, these degrees of emanation

coming out of the sun as it were.

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And at one point, one of the lower

personages on the scale of emanation

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creates the physical universe.

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That idea goes at least back

to Plato that this physical

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universe itself is a kind of fall.

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Oh, I see the issue

starting to emerge here.

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Right.

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So the physical universe is not good.

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Yes, okay.

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Well, it's like what we were talking

about with Buddhism and Hinduism.

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What's the word?

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Maya.

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Maya.

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Yeah.

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And how Maya, M-A-M-A-Y-A.

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Yeah.

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Suffering but reality that we're

trying to escape because our,

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our physical universe is all bad.

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Exactly.

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So both Eastern thought and neo platonism

have this same dynamic that there is

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a, a oneness or there is a source, or

there is a something beyond, and they're

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gonna use different labels for this.

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Usually the one or the good

or something like that.

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The Brahman in Eastern thought and

then there is also this world of

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temporality and suffering and evil

and good and bad and Distinctions

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and this world that encapsulates

all these things is not ultimate.

312

It's not real in the deepest sense It's an

emanation of some way Eastern thought is a

313

little bit different here but In some way,

it's an emanation from the oneness, and

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the goal is to get back to that oneness.

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By escaping that.

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Usually.

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Okay.

318

It's kind of weird how this works,

but it's a good digression here.

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So in this thought, and this

profoundly, Neoplatonism profoundly

320

influenced Christian theology.

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Profoundly.

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Positively, or?

323

Probably good and bad.

324

Yeah.

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Okay.

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Okay.

327

I would say good and bad.

328

Okay.

329

We'll have to unpack that in

a different episode for sure.

330

Yeah.

331

We'll be good.

332

But one of the ways that this works

out then is, okay, if this physical

333

universe is not good, so it's a fall,

it's a lesser value than God, or it's

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positively a valueless or even it's evil.

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So if that's true, then

what do I do with that?

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And there's two primary responses,

and they're very opposite.

337

So it's kind of interesting

how they both flow.

338

One is the way of asceticism, where

you're going to try to engage with this

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physical world as little as possible.

340

Mm hmm.

341

Yeah.

342

And you see this in the monastic

tradition, in the idea of celibacy,

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in the idea of having self denial of

the body taken to extremes, because in

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their viewpoint, bodily desires are evil

because the body is not really valuable.

345

Yeah.

346

Yeah.

347

Mm hmm.

348

There's also Easter variations

of this as well, okay?

349

So that's one sense, the aesthetic

lifestyle, trying to remove

350

yourself from physical pleasures,

physical interactions, engaging

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in this world as much as possible.

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The other is to say, okay, well, this

world and all the things within it,

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food and drink and sex and pleasure and

everything else, is valueless because

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it's not about God, then it doesn't

matter what I do with those things.

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Um, all that matters is that I seek

this inner union and those external

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things don't, don't matter at all.

357

So you can give in to them.

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Yes.

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Paul summed it up this way.

360

So the opponents that were trying

to infiltrate the church, their

361

viewpoint was, uh, the body

for food and the food for body.

362

So just eat whatever you want, do

whatever you want with your body.

363

Yeah.

364

Because it doesn't affect,

because really the most important

365

things are the spiritual things.

366

Exactly.

367

Exactly.

368

Now that idea, again, profoundly

imposes the Christian church, right?

369

Yeah, I, I feel like I remember

studying, uh, First John as a church

370

a couple years ago, and it seemed

like that was kind of the main point,

371

the main heretical viewpoint that St.

372

John was trying to counterattack.

373

It was.

374

It was a proto gnosticism.

375

Gnosticism is fully within this tradition.

376

Okay.

377

And you had proto gnosticism, so the

first kind of forerunners of that thought.

378

Already there within the community

that John was addressing, and

379

yeah, he was hitting that hard.

380

So the relationship between us as

people and creation and how we live

381

and what we do with our bodies and eat

and drink and sex and all this stuff.

382

It's been a challenging question

for Christians to interact with.

383

Okay.

384

Yeah.

385

This is super interesting.

386

So part of this second conception of

the universe, the emanating universe

387

has influenced Christian thought,

but it is not Christian thought.

388

It is not.

389

Okay.

390

It is not.

391

Can I, can I bring us to kind

of the Yeah, let's do it.

392

Okay.

393

So we got that independent universe,

which would be the naturalistic or

394

materialistic perspectives that know God,

you know, different challenges of that.

395

Then we got the emanating universe.

396

Oneness between God and universe.

397

Creation is not good and not

intentional and purposeful.

398

And then we have this conception

of the universe that you have

399

labeled the dependent universe.

400

I'm not sure that they're the best ones

or not, but they get, they get across

401

the points that you're trying to say.

402

There are different ways that we

can view the universe and especially

403

God's relationship to universe, or if

there's God or not, that kind of thing.

404

So it's helpful.

405

Yeah.

406

And the ways that we

do matter, the changes.

407

Yes.

408

Yeah.

409

All right.

410

So dependent universe, what I'm

trying to get across here is this

411

is the viewpoint of the Scriptures

and classical Christian theology.

412

That the universe is real and good,

but dependent and not ultimate.

413

God is ultimate.

414

God is the one who created the universe.

415

He can exist without it, but

it cannot exist without him.

416

That's what we mean by dependent.

417

So it's not something you're

going to write off in your taxes.

418

Unfortunately.

419

Unfortunately, yeah.

420

I don't think I have a

story about that, so.

421

Now, the way this developed is when

Christian thinkers began thinking through

422

this, And they began understanding

passages like Genesis 1, 1, and all that

423

that means, or Psalm 90, verse 2, before

the mountains were formed, or you gave

424

birth to the world and the universe, from

everlasting to everlasting, you are God.

425

So they're taking these ideas, and I could

list probably a dozen just off the top

426

of my head, and maybe a couple dozen more

if I looked them up and wrote them down.

427

But the idea is that God is fundamentally

distinct from this universe, and that

428

he created it ex nihilo, which is

a Latin phrase for out of nothing.

429

So that kind of solves the problem of

how did something come from nothing?

430

Yes.

431

I mean, it creates in our minds a little

bit of a conceptual issue as well.

432

So we have to imagine that there

is a God who is eternally existent.

433

That doesn't come easily to our mind.

434

Right.

435

And that we have to believe that

a spiritual being, a non physical

436

being, can create a physical world.

437

That doesn't come easily

to our mind either.

438

My point is that when you begin

thinking about this, either from a

439

natural perspective or a Christian

perspective, it tends to go beyond

440

what our minds can understand.

441

For example, if I say that matter is

eternal, does that make sense to you?

442

It's, yeah, it's hard to.

443

It's hard to, why?

444

What brought it here?

445

I mean, Heidegger said that's the

fundamental philosophical question.

446

Why is there something here than nothing?

447

Yeah.

448

And, and all my experience points to

things come and go and they degrade

449

and, you know, all that stuff.

450

Right.

451

It may change form, but I don't know.

452

That, yeah, that's a tricky one.

453

So my contention is not that it

makes perfect logical sense to

454

believe in an eternal creator who

forms this universe or who brings

455

physical universe into existence.

456

Even though he himself is not

physical, but the alternatives are

457

at least as intellectually puzzling.

458

Okay.

459

And the, and the results to my mind

are more consistent, a more livable

460

and a more coherent worldview.

461

Okay.

462

So I like you said that like philosophy

is hard no matter which position you're

463

taking, but the position you take

or choose or believe or that sort of

464

thing, it is going to make a difference.

465

It is.

466

So, what would be some of the

benefits of this dependent

467

universe conception of the world?

468

Yeah.

469

So, when the Christian church and

tradition and philosophy has said that

470

God created the universe out of nothing,

they're saying, first of all, that

471

God did not use preexistent materials.

472

So, matter is not eternal.

473

God is.

474

So, God brought matter into existence.

475

He does not have a body.

476

He does not live within the space

time continuum, because that's part.

477

of the universe he creates.

478

He is beyond and outside of all that.

479

He is ultimate.

480

Matter is not.

481

The physical creation is not.

482

Only God is.

483

So that's the first part of that.

484

So why is that important?

485

Well, then you have one ultimate thing.

486

You have God.

487

You don't have two ultimate things,

like you have God plus matter.

488

There's nothing outside of God

that constrained what he was

489

doing, that limited him in any way.

490

There's nothing outside of God

that is as ultimate as he is and

491

that could compete in any way,

shape, or form for our allegiance.

492

So it goes to show kind

of the, the power of God.

493

This, the power, but

also the ultimacy of God.

494

So under this conception, non

living matter is not ultimate.

495

A living being is ultimate.

496

A living being with purpose,

will, intentionality.

497

And that's a very fundamentally different

understanding of what reality is about.

498

That's good.

499

And the second thing that they're saying

when they say creation is out of nothing,

500

They're also saying that God makes

things out of nothing, not out of God.

501

So this is speaking against the

emanation idea that was very prevalent

502

within Neoplatonism and Gnosticism,

that God creates this physical

503

universe pretty much out of himself.

504

That's an expression of who he is.

505

That's an overflow of who he is.

506

Therefore, the universe and

God are in this symbiotic

507

relationship towards each other.

508

So, are you saying that God didn't create

creation out of an overflow of who he is?

509

So it's not out of God in the

sense that it's not created out of

510

his essence, but out of his will.

511

And that's very different.

512

So, think of the sun analogy.

513

So, the sun cannot not radiate light.

514

Exactly.

515

The sun cannot not do what it does.

516

Yeah.

517

But God, when he creates the

universe, has a choice in it.

518

It's a purposeful act.

519

Okay, so that, yeah, so that means God

has a purpose for creation, which means

520

that we can find purpose in God's purpose.

521

Exactly.

522

We can find purpose in God's purpose.

523

It also means, again, that

this world is seen as valuable

524

and good, but not ultimate.

525

Under the monistic viewpoint, under that

emanating universe kind of worldview,

526

you have this problem of, well, all

things are God, and yet what's really

527

God about them is not this It's about us.

528

Physical manifestation of that person,

but rather this inward, untouchable

529

part of them that will eventually be,

go back to God and be dissolved in him

530

like a drop of rain into the ocean.

531

So when you have that understanding,

then you tend to devalue the physical

532

expressions of that within time and space.

533

So it sounds like you're doing

humans and animals a favor

534

by saying that they're God.

535

But when you really begin to delve into

what that means, then you see that you're

536

elevating a certain part of them, but

you're devaluating the part of them

537

that's locked into this space time matrix

that is perceived as less than God.

538

So it kind of devalues all

kind of material things.

539

It tends to.

540

It tends to.

541

Now, I'm not explaining that very well.

542

But the idea of Judaism

and Christianity and Islam.

543

It's fundamentally distinct, not

only from naturalism or atheism,

544

but also from Eastern thought in its

entirety, in its very fundamental

545

conception of what reality is.

546

All religions are not

teaching the same thing.

547

They have very different

understandings of the most basic

548

parts of how we interpret the world.

549

That brings a lot of clarity to that.

550

Yeah.

551

So let's delve into the, some of the

implications of this a little bit

552

now, and this will be something that

I think can help us understand why

553

it's important that we grasp this.

554

First, there is a fall within

this viewpoint, at least

555

under Christianity, right?

556

But that fall is not ontological

or metaphysical, the fact

557

that we are made of matter.

558

The fall is moral.

559

And that's a very fundamental difference.

560

Yeah.

561

Unpack that a little bit.

562

Well, under, say, Neoplatonism, there

is a fall, but the fall was when

563

whatever being, the demiurge, as

Plato called it, or some other being.

564

created the physical universe,

the physical universe itself,

565

this world of temporality and

matter and change is what's wrong.

566

It's the fall.

567

But under the Christian

worldview, that's not true.

568

There is something wrong with this

universe, but it's something not

569

related to matter, not related to

our existence as physical beings.

570

And therefore, what we are redeemed

from is not our physical bodies.

571

We're not going to live in this

disembodied, non physical existence.

572

That's not what salvation and redemption

is about, because that's not the problem.

573

The problem is moral evil

within human choices.

574

So certainly that moral evil

is experienced in the body.

575

Yes, it can be.

576

And we can feel real implications of

that evil when, when somebody smacks

577

you in the face and steals something.

578

You can feel that.

579

But you're saying that the

problem is not the body.

580

The problem is not the body.

581

So it's, the fundamental thing, I

remember one of my theology classes

582

loving this language of vandalization.

583

Vandalization?

584

Yes.

585

Like, like the brokenness that we

experience is like vandalized art.

586

Okay.

587

Because the art is innately evil.

588

Right.

589

And so, it's a difference between

the, the innate value of the thing.

590

So, the fall is not our most

fundamental foundational reality.

591

Exactly.

592

Our reality is good creation, people

made in the image of God, with

593

purpose that God has set in place.

594

The brokenness, when we chose life

apart from God, vandalized that and

595

is the part that needs redemption.

596

Exactly.

597

Yeah, that's a very good analogy.

598

It's a beautiful stained glass

window that's been broken.

599

Yeah.

600

But it could be restored

from outside of itself.

601

Yeah.

602

Can't restore itself.

603

That's at least part of the analogy

from a Christian perspective,

604

but it has the potential of

being restored by someone else.

605

Yeah.

606

The solution isn't just to get rid

of the whole thing because, oh, it

607

was never any good to begin with.

608

No.

609

Our body is not the problem.

610

We are going to have a body, physical

body in the new heaven and earth.

611

Yeah.

612

That is a good thing.

613

Now, having said that, there is a

sense in which the scriptures talk

614

about the moral evil within our will

affecting our body in some way so that

615

it seems to develop these habits or

grooves where evil or sin tends to then

616

become part of our bodily responses.

617

But that's not inherent.

618

That's something that happens

as a result of the fall.

619

So sometimes Paul talks about

human flesh in a negative way.

620

But again, He has two different words.

621

He has the word flesh and the word body.

622

And in Greek, he's using

two different words.

623

Flesh, that part of us that at its

center is wrong, is not our body.

624

He uses a different word.

625

He uses soma.

626

He says sarks for flesh.

627

Anyway, that's why, when you asked about

the effect of neoplatonism and why some

628

of these things matter, I think that's

one of the areas where we get it wrong.

629

We tend to think that there's

something wrong with bodily existence.

630

It's because we tend to view salvation

as moving and escaping from our body.

631

That is not a Christian idea.

632

That is a neoplatonist idea.

633

Yeah.

634

I can see in the teaching of

Paul, especially when we have one

635

word in English for the two works

that Paul has, that he does, he

636

does talk about the sinfulness

and the brokenness of the flesh.

637

So I could see how the response would

be, okay, we'll put off the flesh through

638

asceticism or whatever, but understanding

that, okay, the body is good, but it has

639

been vandalized by brokenness and, and the

sin is profoundly deep, even into our DNA.

640

I mean, we experience through

habits and all this stuff, but.

641

Even we're born into a broken

paradigm and that's that theological

642

concept of original sin that we're

just born into by nature being here.

643

But that is distinct from how

we were created to be right.

644

And that hugely important

difference there.

645

Yeah, it is.

646

Yeah.

647

I believe God wants us to

enjoy our bodily existence.

648

He sets limits on it in some ways, for

example, in sex or drinking or whatever,

649

but the limits are not the same thing as

denigrating it as invaluable or not good.

650

You set limits on something

that you do view as valuable.

651

Yeah.

652

It's like a sexuality.

653

There is a stream of anti sexual

teaching or anti sexual pleasure

654

teaching within the Christian tradition.

655

And I was wrong.

656

But at the same time, that

doesn't mean anything goes.

657

It means because something is so

good, you set limits on it so, so

658

it doesn't hurt people by its power.

659

When you have a home with a fireplace

on a cold winter night, that fire

660

within the fireplace is good.

661

If it spreads outside the

fireplace, you have problems.

662

Human sexuality, human pleasure in

the, in a lot of these senses is a

663

good thing in the right place and

in the right time and circumstances.

664

Otherwise, it can be destructive

and harmful to the people that

665

God meant to bless it with.

666

Yeah.

667

That's the same thing

with food or anything.

668

I know Aristotle's helpful in some of this

that it's good to have balance with that.

669

Excess is not healthy.

670

Deprivation is not healthy.

671

So it seems like a common

sense principle of life that

672

limits are not necessarily bad.

673

Boundaries are not necessarily bad.

674

They can be good.

675

They can be bad if you put them

in the wrong places or you abuse

676

them or that kind of thing.

677

But generally speaking, there can

be good limits and good boundaries

678

that can protect a good thing.

679

Right.

680

Exactly.

681

But you need to realize that

it is a good thing first.

682

So that gets back to the body piece

where you have to recognize that

683

our physicality is not bad innately.

684

Right.

685

It's good.

686

So you need to figure out a

proper theology of the body.

687

In order, in creation, in order to

honor it as it should be honored.

688

That's provided it's someone who kind of

summed up the teaching of some churches.

689

They paint sex in this

negative way sometimes.

690

Anyway, he summed up their

message as, Sex is dirty and

691

evil and disgusting and sinful.

692

Save it for the one you're

going to be married to.

693

Yeah, yeah.

694

Anyway, the point of this being

that in this, in this worldview,

695

physical things are good.

696

We are dependent.

697

We are dependent.

698

We are not ultimate, and we

cannot exist without God.

699

And yet we are distinct from

God, and we always will be.

700

We will, we will never be dissolved into

the Godhead in the Eastern or monistic

701

sense like a drop of rain into the ocean.

702

We will always be fundamentally

good in God's redeemed universe.

703

And fundamentally distinct from God.

704

That's what's different about this.

705

Now, there are at least four

really cool implications of this.

706

Yeah, I was going to ask you,

okay, what does this mean for

707

us like practically today?

708

First of all, we have to

remember that creation is free.

709

And what we mean by that, when we talk

about creation being free for God,

710

not that it was inexpensive or cheap.

711

But rather it wasn't constrained.

712

There was nothing outside of

God that forced him to create.

713

There was nothing that made him do it.

714

It was a free act of God.

715

Like if you compel me to do something

for somebody else because you're giving

716

me an ultimatum, that's not a free act.

717

But if I go and I give 10 to somebody

that I just meet because it seems

718

like they need it or 100 simply

because I want to, that's a free act.

719

Yeah.

720

Creation's free in that sense.

721

And that's good.

722

And that also tells us then

that creation is purposeful.

723

We may not understand fully the purpose

of God, but we understand that a rational

724

being who creates does so for a purpose.

725

And we also see scripture talks about

God's purpose again and again and again.

726

This is not something God just did as

a side project or because he was bored.

727

Or because he had to.

728

This is a free act.

729

It's a purposeful act.

730

The book of Ephesians, especially

chapter one, talks about this purpose.

731

He does all things in conformity

to his will or his purpose.

732

There is something God is doing.

733

This world that we're in is part of that.

734

We're in the middle of it.

735

We may not see it.

736

We're in the aquarium.

737

We may not see why the aquarium

maker created the aquarium.

738

But scripture tells us, and common

sense tells us, when we think about a

739

rational being created, there's a purpose.

740

So, purpose is fundamental

to this universe.

741

This is not an accident, and

we're not here by accident.

742

And then third, well, we've

already touched on this a lot.

743

Creation is good.

744

Creation is a good act of God.

745

Here, good especially means

fitting for His purpose.

746

So, if you have a good meal, it's

one that's fitting for its purpose

747

of providing you sustenance, but

also one that you really enjoyed.

748

If you have a good car, it's

not good in the sense of moral

749

rightness or wrongness necessarily.

750

The idea being that it gets you from

point A to point B reliably and in a way

751

that's Um, relatively enjoyable compared

to modes of transportation, perhaps.

752

So that idea of bringing pleasure

to God, but also be fit for his

753

purpose is what we mean by good here.

754

And that also, by the way,

allows the category of evil

755

to be real, but not ultimate.

756

Evil is working against God's purposes.

757

Basically that's at its heart.

758

We'll develop that some other time.

759

And then finally, creation

is an act of love.

760

Creation is an act of love.

761

It wasn't something God had to do.

762

There was nothing that God needed

that creation was going to fulfill.

763

I need a meal, so it's good in that

sense because I have a bodily need.

764

I need certain things

to keep my existence.

765

I need the affection of certain

people at least in my life.

766

I need, I have all kinds of needs.

767

God doesn't.

768

There is nothing outside of

God that He needs to exist.

769

Or for His pleasure.

770

The creation of this world did

not meet a need in God in that

771

sense like we experience need.

772

We're told in Scripture that God is love.

773

John 17 says before God created

the universe, there was this inner

774

Trinitarian love, love between

the members of the Trinity.

775

Love is more foundational than the

world itself, the creation itself.

776

We're told in Ephesians that He chose

us before the creation of the world.

777

And that part of this, Ephesians

chapter 1, is out of love.

778

So what's ultimate is God, and the

ultimate thing that we know about God

779

that we base our understanding of our

life about, the ultimate thing that

780

we know about God that changes how

we interpret this universe in our own

781

life is that God is love, that love

existed before creation even began.

782

If I am a believer, for me at least,

the fundamental facts about me are this.

783

That I am a dependent creature

made by someone else for his own

784

purposes, and his purpose is love.

785

It is for my good.

786

And if I really believe

that, it changes everything.

787

So, That's what I think we can know about

God by thinking a little bit more deeply

788

about his free creation of this universe.

789

Yeah, that's amazing.

790

I love how in this time you've brought

us through the way that conceiving

791

of God and his relationship to

creation or the universe without

792

God really has certain implications.

793

But this idea that we are dependent,

that we are created and God is creator.

794

It's, it's more than just, oh, God is

outside of space and God is out of time

795

and God is out of temporal causality.

796

But that no, this shows us something, it

reveals something about God's character.

797

That he is a God who is full of

purpose and that purpose is love.

798

And so as those created by him, our

purpose is good, our purpose is love.

799

Um, and that helps us live into

being who we were created to be.

800

Yeah, exactly.

801

Well, anything else you want to

say on that before we conclude?

802

Just want to emphasize again how

different this viewpoint is than the

803

idea that we are simply here because

matter itself somehow formed us.

804

In that view, there is

no definition of evil.

805

It's undefinable.

806

It's eternal.

807

There is no purpose, no meaning

in life except what I choose to

808

give it, but it's not inherent.

809

It's also, again, different than

Neoplatonism, or Eastern thought,

810

this physical universe is not

evil or wrong or an illusion.

811

It is real and it is good,

but it's not ultimate.

812

What's ultimate is God.

813

What helps me when I think through all

this is interpreting my life then around

814

that idea that God is ultimate, I'm not.

815

That is the truth, and what's

right for me then is to more and

816

more live my life in light of that

truth, a right response to reality.

817

And that's certainly not there, but

that helps me get there more and more.

818

That's a good word.

819

Well, thank you so much.

820

My pleasure.

821

See ya.

822

See ya.