When you’re deep in early motherhood, it’s easy to think you’re just tired or that others have it worse. But what if asking for help early could change everything for you and your baby?

In this week’s episode Dr Renee White speaks with Julie Borninkhof, CEO of PANDA (Perinatal Anxiety & Depression Australia) and Clinical Psychologist. Julie has spent years supporting Australian families through pregnancy and early parenthood.

Together, they explore the signs that something’s not quite right, what actually happens when you call PANDA, and how preparing your mental health before baby arrives can help you feel more grounded when life changes overnight.

You’ll hear about:

• What perinatal mental health covers and why early support matters
• What to expect when calling the PANDA Helpline
• Common reasons parents and families reach out for help
• How to prepare your mental wellbeing during pregnancy
• How partners, grandparents and friends can support new parents

Motherhood isn’t meant to be done alone. If something feels off, trust that instinct. Support is available and it’s never too soon to ask for help.

Resources & Links:

📲 Connect with Renee on Instagram: @fillyourcup_

🌐 Learn more about Dr Renee White and explore Fill Your Cup Doula services

🍪 Treat yourself with our Chocolate + Goji lactation cookies

🤍 Connect with Julie Borninkhof and PANDA

Website: www.panda.org.au

Instagram: @pandanational

Helpline: 1300 726 306

If you found this episode helpful, share it with another mum who might need a reminder that she’s not alone. And make sure you’re subscribed so you don’t miss the next episode of The Science of Motherhood.

✨ This episode is proudly brought to you by Cake Maternity

Cake Maternity specialises in high-quality nursing bras that are supportive, functional, comfortable, and stylish because you shouldn’t have to compromise as a mum.

With sizes from 6–22 bands and A to JJ cups, their range includes seamless, flexi-wire, hands-free pumping, and absorbent birthing bras. Explore the collection at au.cakematernity.com and use code FYC15 for 15% off your order.

Disclaimer:

The information on this podcast presented by Fill Your Cup is not a substitute for independent professional advice. Nothing contained in this episode is intended to be used as medical advice and it is not intended to be used to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease, nor should it be used for therapeutic purposes or as a substitute for your own health professional’s advice.

[00:00:30] Dr Renee White: This episode is proudly brought to you by a brand I personally used and loved during my breastfeeding journey. Cake maternity. Cake maternity specializes in high quality nursing bras that are not [00:00:45] only supportive. Hello to us full chested ladies.

[00:01:16] Dr Renee White: And so I felt really uncomfortable because I absolutely needed to wear, you know, breastfeeding pads overnight. Cause otherwise I would just leak everywhere. So that meant I have to wear a bra overnight and the first instant [00:01:30] thought in my head was. Oh my God, that is so ick. I cannot even fathom that whatsoever.

[00:01:59] Dr Renee White: [00:02:00] So, cake maternity. They have got something for every mum or mum to be. What I love about them, very inclusive, they've got a wide size range from six to 22 bands and A to double J cups. I was [00:02:15] definitely on the other end of that, whether you are after Seamless, flexi wire, hands-free pumping bras, or even absorbent birthing bras they have got you covered girlfriend.

[00:02:48] Dr Renee White: Hello and welcome to episode 198. This is The Science of Motherhood and I'm your host, Dr. Renee White. In today's episode, we are gonna be talking about reaching out for help when you're [00:03:00] struggling and why early makes all the difference.

[00:03:34] Dr Renee White: If you've been waiting for things to get worse before you deserve support. This episode will change that. I'm joined by Julie [00:03:45] Borninkhof, the CEO of PANDA and clinical psychologist who has worked with some of Australia's most vulnerable families. She is absolutely passionate about ensuring that lived experience shapes the way we support our new parents.[00:04:00]

[00:04:26] Dr Renee White: And make sure you listen in for Julie's advice on how to [00:04:30] prepare your mental health and wellbeing before your baby arrives, because prevention is always easier than treatment. This episode is proudly supported by fill your Cup, Australia's first doula village. If you are pregnant or [00:04:45] have a new baby, we have got some amazing doulas ready to nurture and nourish you across Melbourne, Geelong, Sydney, Newcastle, Brisbane, Gold Coast, Hobart, and Perth. Let's dive into [00:05:00] today's episode.

[00:05:09] Julie Borninkhof : Hey Renee, so well, thank you so much for having me.

[00:05:19] Julie Borninkhof : It is a tapestry. It's often mistaken for a First Nations artwork, which openly declare it isn't. But it is a beautiful tapestry that I've had for many years and it's always kind of just [00:05:30] turned up on my walls without major intent.

[00:05:32] Dr Renee White: I love that. I'm sorry to all the, listeners who can't see it, you'll have to watch, um, our reels on Instagram or YouTube, um, to see the beautiful background that Julie has.

[00:05:42] Dr Renee White: Everyone would've heard from the introduction [00:05:45] that Julie is none other than the CEO of PANDA and also a clinical psychologist. And on today's podcast, we are gonna be talking all things, I guess, prevention when it comes to [00:06:00] per health, I think we talk a lot about the doom and gloom of like, you know what what happens and what you can do. You know, when we're all kind of in the bunker of it.

[00:06:12] Dr Renee White: Yeah. As someone who has experienced postnatal [00:06:15] anxiety, myself, I have been there, done that and got the t-shirt on that one. So yeah, I can, I can do firsthand account of that, but, it's always, I think, really nice to have conversations about that kind of prevention step.

[00:06:52] Dr Renee White: Because I think things get thrown around and people are like, oh yeah, they just nod along. I'm like, what actually are we talking about? When [00:07:00] About that?

[00:07:09] Julie Borninkhof : Mm-hmm. The way we look after ourselves mentally and the way we reflect on our skills and abilities [00:07:15] in the perinatal period, which is the pregnancy period and the year following the birth of the baby.

[00:07:21] Julie Borninkhof : Quite often though, you know, for PANDA and for those of us that are leaning into this space to support people, we're often coming from the deficit space or the space [00:07:30] of people being impacted.

[00:07:48] Julie Borninkhof : Yeah. Kicking and screaming for some, which is absolutely understandable. But yeah, it's really about the way we are able to think through solution, ground ourselves, you know, [00:08:00] think and find space to adjust. Um, and if you have a mental health condition. As many people know, that's significantly disrupted during this period.

[00:08:32] Dr Renee White: What are I, I guess, what are some of the resources that PANDA has and perhaps, you know, you've obviously got the hotline. What are some of the common things that people call PANDA about?

[00:08:51] Julie Borninkhof : So for some people they would know and have heard about PANDA and that we've been around for over 40 years. So we're an organization that was born out of [00:09:00] lived experience. So two women who were brought together by their child health nurse mm-hmm. Who said, Hey, you're experiencing the same strength thing.

[00:09:54] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:17] Julie Borninkhof : But when we talk about it, it's about providing people with really accessible content that they can get through their phone, their tablets, their computers at any time of the night and day. And while our helpline isn't available [00:10:30] 24 7, the resources we have online, so our mental health checklist, which is a self screener that people can do at any time, night or day, and get a read out on how they're traveling, and it's translated into 40 languages is there for them.

[00:11:08] Julie Borninkhof : So we have this kind of digital arm that people can use as their own, you know, self-care toolkit. [00:11:15] And use on their own or with their partner. Some people sit and work through stuff as a family unit to better understand and support each other. But then as you said, we have our helpline, which we're most well known for, and our helpline operates 9:00 AM till 7:30 PM [00:11:30] Monday to Friday, and 9:00 AM till 4:00 PM on Saturdays.

[00:11:49] Julie Borninkhof : Mm-hmm. But you know, we get back to people if they leave a message.

[00:11:53] Julie Borninkhof : And that call is really about wrapping around you, assessing what your needs are, assessing if you or your bub are at any [00:12:00] risk. And we need to kind of activate other supports. And for those who need some kind of longitudinal care and journeying, we'll do that with them if we've got capacity to do that. And if they need that.

[00:12:19] Julie Borninkhof : Yeah.

[00:12:21] Julie Borninkhof : we're so proud of that.

[00:12:22] Julie Borninkhof : Yeah, it's been beautiful. Yeah.

[00:12:25] Julie Borninkhof : I mean, pan, absolutely. Renee PANDA is all for partnership.

[00:12:51] Julie Borninkhof : We are really keen to ensure that services like pink elephants and PANDAs are easy to navigate, and rather than wasting [00:13:00] taxpayers dollars, as Sam and I would say, you know, and pink elephants having to build the infrastructure to deliver the secure call environment mm-hmm. That our counselors and peer workers work out of.

[00:13:30] Julie Borninkhof : Mm-hmm. So it's been beautiful to formalize it and naturally open up that arm of the business and do that in a partnership, which we kind of referred to as a powered by PANDA but absolutely pink elephants work.

[00:13:48] Dr Renee White: So when I read it, I was like. Yeah, of course. Like what are we all talking about here? That's true.

[00:14:11] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:14:16] Dr Renee White: Yes.

[00:14:22] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:14:27] Dr Renee White: Yeah. It just totally made sense. Yeah, because like I'm always like, [00:14:30] don't reinvent the wheel. Like don't complicate things. It doesn't need to be.

[00:14:45] Julie Borninkhof : And in other digital areas, it's absolutely, there's more than enough work, sadly, to go around for all of us.

[00:15:17] Dr Renee White: Or like, I wouldn't wanna take up resources cause it's not that bad. And it's like, yeah, I hear you, but, but also. You know, if we kind of like nip it [00:15:30] in the bud type thing, it's like if we get on top of this, it will be so much easier. And the way I normally describe it when I'm supporting mums is I, I kind of use the analogy of when I had my c-section my, before I went, my friend who is a [00:15:45] nurse and she had had two children via C-section.

[00:16:09] Dr Renee White: And I, I feel like that that's very similar with mental health. It's like, hmm starting to feel a [00:16:15] little bit wonky, you know? Mm-hmm. Like it's, it's, it's good to kind of check in with someone and be like, okay, yep. I call it like, almost like a little wheel alignment, you know?

[00:16:25] Dr Renee White: You kind of gotta get your brakes tested and like, oh, things are feeling a bit funky [00:16:30] in the car. Just gotta go take it in for a quick service. And that is so much easier than like an overhaul or like a complete write off of your car. And so that's what we're talking about right? When, when we are reaching out.

[00:16:42] Dr Renee White: You know, what are the types of things, or I guess [00:16:45] perhaps maybe things that, you know, new parents should be thinking about or going, oh, actually, you know what? Maybe this would warrant a call to PANDA.

[00:16:57] Dr Renee White: yeah.

[00:17:14] Julie Borninkhof : To subjugate our [00:17:15] needs and go, there's always gonna be somebody worse than me. Let's keep that for them, you know? Mm-hmm. But the reality is we all know we get one crack at this life and we get one, one crack at parenting this individual bub. So you know, you have the [00:17:30] right to put yourself forward and make every moment count.

[00:17:34] Julie Borninkhof : You know, and I think that's really important that people understand that reaching out at the earliest opportunity is what's gonna set you up for success. [00:17:45] Because a lot of what we support people with, whether they have a lifelong history of mental health conditions, or whether this is just a, a stress or adjustment to parenting, and for the first time in their life, they don't feel capable.[00:18:00]

[00:18:30] Julie Borninkhof : Yeah. And that's just so important. You know, I couldn't, all the media, I do, uh, it's the one message I try to get out there, you know, if you feel it, think it, do it. Get help, you know? Yeah. The tricky part though, around perinatal [00:18:45] mental health and the kind of downward slope of this experience is that so many of the symptoms that we as clinicians would identify as a part of that ill health?

[00:19:00] Julie Borninkhof : Related to just parenting? Yes. The sleepless nights. Yeah. The inability to get a meal at the right time. Mm-hmm. You know, that, you know, we ask on the helpline and there's a, an indicator about do you sleep when your baby's sleeping? Mm-hmm. Well, I don't know about you, [00:19:15] but I never did because that was a time where my mind started racing around the what could I do to get a head start on things, you know?

[00:19:39] Julie Borninkhof : Mm-hmm. But, you know, I, I'm a real believer in promoting to people that we do all [00:19:45] have an inner flag and we do all have the capacity to listen to that most of the time. And you know, the minute something doesn't feel right or the minute somebody reflects back to you. Cause lots of our callers say it [00:20:00] was my husband or my mother-in-law saying to me, you don't look like you're going so well.

[00:20:04] Julie Borninkhof : Or you know, you look like you're having a bit of a rough time. Yeah. That was the impetus to change people, to put themselves forward and that was that kind of mirror. So I think, you know, listening for those things.

[00:20:48] Julie Borninkhof : absolutely,

[00:21:15] Dr Renee White: Mm. That we are not thinking about, you know, all the different architecture that's going on and this brain fog, which I'm just gonna put in bin, I'm like, it's not brain fog, it is just your brain rewiring. I, I feel like if there [00:21:30] was more education around that, then we perhaps would be better equipped with, you know, the understandings of the why.

[00:22:02] Dr Renee White: And their thinking. And their feelings. Yeah. And you should have seen all the women, their faces were just like lighting up. Yeah. And one, one mama actually started to cry. Mm-hmm. Because she was just like, oh my God, I [00:22:15] thought I was going mad. Yeah. You know, and I just sad and it's a hard one. Right?

[00:22:36] Dr Renee White: Yes.

[00:22:47] Dr Renee White: I like that

[00:23:01] Julie Borninkhof : Yeah. In terms of how your brain works and you know how your family structure and your support system works. Mm-hmm. I think it's really important that we do absolutely make that information important and you know, across a [00:23:15] whole model of information and awareness that laying stuff out in ways that are really digestible.

[00:23:43] Julie Borninkhof : And provide, but also [00:23:45] just give. You know, I think we need kind of, you know, recyclable information. Mm-hmm. That gives people the opportunity to go engage with what it is they're ready to engage with. And so, so often we hear, you know, that people got a pamphlet from a [00:24:00] pregnancy child and baby expo. They put it in their bag.

[00:24:14] Dr Renee White: Yes.

[00:24:16] Dr Renee White: the holy grail.

[00:24:46] Julie Borninkhof : Mm-hmm. Whether it's from our, our daughters mm-hmm. When they're going through puberty for the first time and our sons through to, you know, menopause. Mm-hmm. You know, at the other end. I think we just have to get better at normalizing these conversations. [00:25:00] But, you know, the planning piece is a really interesting one and it's, you know, we often talk about.

[00:25:26] Julie Borninkhof : Mm-hmm. You know, that could resurface as a [00:25:30] result of being displaced. And you know, going back to what you were saying before about that experience of the adjustment, you know, ultimately it's all about self trust. Mm-hmm. You know, if you are feeling disrupted, if you are feeling like you are confronted and you can't see a way [00:25:45] through this experience, your trust in yourself.

[00:26:05] Julie Borninkhof : Mm. Or their partner or the unit of the family, you know? Yeah. I think it's really important. So yeah, more, more early stuff the better.

[00:26:27] Dr Renee White: And that's, that's [00:26:30] because, you know, they had a preexisting mental health, um, issue, which I'm so glad you raised because I had no idea that it would rear its ugly head again, you know, during postpartum all the way to, you know, they've, you know, [00:26:45] perhaps they've lost their mum and they've got a mother-in-law and that relationship is a little bit fractured and, you know, their, um, their village around them, their psychologist or counselor or whatever has said, you know, actually.

[00:27:28] Julie Borninkhof : Yeah. Well I think, you know, [00:27:30] bottom line first and foremost is we'd be recommending the tip sheets that we have on our website. So we've got some really great tip sheets around self-care, you know, coping with anxiety and depression and everything in between. So I think arming yourself with [00:27:45] those little reminders, even though they're, you know, PANDAs and they're not necessarily nuanced to you.

[00:28:11] Julie Borninkhof : I think one of the things that we hear the most is, you know, that [00:28:15] kind of feeling like you're not connecting with partners. Mm-hmm. You know, and for me there's a piece, you know, and really simple stuff like tissue boxing, the things that you like to do together. And by that I mean writing on a scrap of paper.

[00:28:56] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:29:07] Julie Borninkhof : So I think making sure that you're kind of simplifying and putting that information there and that you're not just focusing on [00:29:15] the external kind of factors around the baby and preparing for the baby. The nesting period can also be that kind of nesting to find safety and provide that scaffolding and the, the structure to support you and your partner during that time.

[00:29:57] Julie Borninkhof : absolutely,

[00:30:21] Julie Borninkhof : Absolutely. Just breaking the, you know, you can't, you know, our brain chemicals, once they're firing they're firing.

[00:30:48] Julie Borninkhof : Mm-hmm. And by that I mean, you know, I had a recent conversation with my husband, and this is giving too much information, but you know, I'm in, I'm in post menopause and the brain fog is real, [00:31:00] you know, and I often say to him, not often, but I have said to him, if at any point you think that I'm repeatedly asking questions, I give you permission to raise that I should have a memory test.

[00:31:12] Julie Borninkhof : Now that's a stupid thing, right? But I think that giving [00:31:15] your partners the power to say, Hey, you know, let you know, let me know if you think I'm struggling. Yeah. Because that's the other piece is we we're really protective of each of each other in these kind of big moments [00:31:30] in life. Yeah. And I think, you know, giving each other permission to raise that you feel like the other person's struggling a little bit, or that you wanna be able to offer support.

[00:31:54] Julie Borninkhof : Yeah. Than saying, Hey, look, you, you know, you look like you're really struggling here. So I think too, giving [00:32:00] people those ways in Yeah. To be able to provide support and to connect and wrap around each other is really important because sadly, we, do become really dis kind of reactive in these moments where we feel like we are less than and we don't trust ourselves.

[00:32:18] Dr Renee White: Oh my goodness.

[00:32:21] Dr Renee White: Yes. Oh my gosh, Julie, you're living rent free in my head this week I have like, so again, like, you know, just. Well, it [00:32:30] is related to pregnancy. So during pregnancy, I got, and I didn't know at the time, otosclerosis, which is loss of hearing in my ear.

[00:33:02] Dr Renee White: And it was, and I was like so defensive in that moment and I was like, what? You know, like,

[00:33:11] Dr Renee White: Yeah. I was like, what is going on here? [00:33:15] But I totally see your point that if, if I had given him, had that conversation in a non emotive kind of section of our day. Then perhaps it would've been received a little bit better. So yes, I totally, I totally agree that

[00:33:46] Julie Borninkhof : And so I think there are so many ways we can kind of open up conversations and know that you have every, every right to be the best you can be and to get the help you need in this period.

[00:34:35] Dr Renee White: If, if someone's listening and you know, they are about to welcome a new baby to their, to their village. What are some of, I guess, the red [00:34:45] flags that they could possibly see for, you know, the mum or dad and I guess is PANDA open to them as well to call?

[00:34:56] Dr Renee White: And, and how, how does that all work?

[00:35:25] Julie Borninkhof : Of somebody who's going through a pregnancy or, um, has had their [00:35:30] bub so that you can also get a read on what it is you are seeing and observing as a, as a way of kind of getting a bit of a printout. And all of our resources are absolutely there and we have some great learning and development [00:35:45] opportunities that we find carers and grandparents like to do in our learning hub around perinatal mental health awareness and stuff.

[00:36:11] Julie Borninkhof : And as a result of that, they didn't quite trust what it was [00:36:15] they were seeing and whether it, you know, it, it didn't feel the same as when you're sitting side by side in the conversation. So we most definitely saw an increase in the number of carers, but we still have an a large number that call through.

[00:36:57] Julie Borninkhof : But if you are watching your loved one and thinking [00:37:00] they would not normally look like they're struggling in this way or they would not normally say that, or you know, for those pieces where you just feel like this is not how you would expect this person.

[00:37:42] Julie Borninkhof : I can hear, I, I've heard that this is a big [00:37:45] time for people. How are you traveling? Mm-hmm. Or, you know. When you, when you did that, you know, I thought, hey, that's not how you'd usually respond. So I think, you know, having these conversations without feeling like you have to fix them

[00:37:57] Julie Borninkhof : Is really important.

[00:38:16] Julie Borninkhof : Yeah. You know, if they, if they lean into the conversation, absolutely let them talk, you know? Mm-hmm. Um, but it's all about, you know, kind of opening up. Yeah. Giving it, [00:38:30] giving a platform and letting the individual sort of lay and guide Mm. And perhaps shoving some resources in front of them, that'll help.

[00:38:47] Julie Borninkhof : Yeah. So our model at the moment is that, and I say at the moment because, you know, we, we are always thinking about how we bring our peer and our clinical workforce mm-hmm. You know, into the space [00:39:00] of providing care. And we are always listening to our community and the feedback we get. But the model is that PANDA's team worked in, in a multidisciplinary way.

[00:39:09] Julie Borninkhof : Most of the time a caller will get through to one of our clinicians. Mm-hmm. And for many that is social [00:39:15] workers, psychologists, people with really, you know, great skillset and expertise around supporting in the perinatal mental health space.

[00:39:53] Julie Borninkhof : Mm-hmm. And that is so that, you know, people have access to their records is really important. Yeah. Also, you know, we're a government funded [00:40:00] agency, so we do need to provide de-identified data on the kind of usage that we see from community. They get, you know, go through that sort of process of exploration.

[00:40:30] Julie Borninkhof : Yeah. There's no right or wrong to it, you know, PANDA's team are really great. Being able to just meet the callers where they're, and you know, we, we love feedback on what that experience looks and feels like.

[00:40:58] Julie Borninkhof : Absolutely. [00:41:00] You know, I think too, you know, the feedback that we get from our callers is o often as you would expect, that, you know, they couldn't get through on their first call and things. And whilst we would love to, you know, catch people in that first moment that they reach out for support.

[00:41:36] Dr Renee White: Yeah. Before we jump into our rapid fire, I just wanted to ask is, is that something that, you know, people volunteer for to be like on the [00:41:45] hotline? Is that something that. You know? Yeah. You'd like to spread the word on perhaps.

[00:41:58] Julie Borninkhof : So as a not-for-profit [00:42:00] agency, it's really hard to get to do the, the kind of review of our models and making sure that, you know, we are compliant with those best practice approaches and we know we do a great job, but we love to be able to show that we've done a good job through certification against [00:42:15] accreditation standards.

[00:42:37] Julie Borninkhof : For them to reach out and they can get in touch with us via the website. We have a form that they can complete.

[00:42:44] Julie Borninkhof : And, you know, [00:42:45] for our next wave of intake. Yeah. We'll, we'll definitely be looking at bringing on more volunteers to support our community cause we love that.

[00:42:57] Julie Borninkhof : No. No. So PANDAs [00:43:00] National. Yep. We have, we we're a remote business. Yep. COVID sent us out of our office in, in Melbourne. Um, and we now have wonderful staff members all over the country, which we are really proud of. We, yeah, we provide all of our, [00:43:15] uh, our staff, whether they're volunteer or employees with the equipment that they need to operate in our safe and secure operating environment that they operate from their own homes.

[00:43:34] Dr Renee White: Amazing. Okay, well bring on the volunteers, everyone you've heard it.

[00:43:42] Dr Renee White: We're gonna dive into our rapid fire now, Julie. [00:43:45] Okay. Three questions that we always ask our guests.

[00:43:59] Julie Borninkhof : I think [00:44:00] put yourself first.

[00:44:02] Julie Borninkhof : Like it feels so selfish and we are not raised to think, to put ourselves first universally, I just think put yourself first. Yeah. You have the right to have exactly what you want in this [00:44:15] moment. Mm-hmm.

[00:44:34] Julie Borninkhof : Oh, uh, it's so personal, isn't it? Look, I, I would say that, you know, you've prob you probably know deep down the things that you've connected with at some point in [00:44:45] your life, you know? Mm-hmm. I, I personally had a drawing that I did when I was 12. That came up for me and that I reflected on when I had my daughter, um, at 40.

[00:45:25] Dr Renee White: Another tool in the toolkit. That's my philosophy. Always. [00:45:30] Last question. It's always a bit left field, and we borrow this one from Brene Brown. Mm-hmm. What do you keep on your bedside table?

[00:46:11] Dr Renee White: I love that.

[00:46:13] Dr Renee White: Did you [00:46:15] birdwatching or anything or is it just

[00:46:25] Dr Renee White: Okay.

[00:46:35] Julie Borninkhof : And I was raised in wa where there was a willy wag tail drought and you know, when the Willy Wag tail started coming back, she was telling me that the, the earth was getting healthy [00:46:45] again. And, you know, the farmers pollutants and things. So I've always felt an affinity and, and connected to birds in my mind. Little apy thing.

[00:47:15] Dr Renee White: Okay. Yeah. I'm, I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna be brave. I'm gonna call PANDA today. What's the number? What's the website address? How can people get in touch with you?

[00:47:38] Julie Borninkhof : Jump that and go straight to the helpline. The number is 1300 726 306.

[00:47:45] Julie Borninkhof : Just checking that it's  1300 726 306 had one of those brain fog moments.

[00:48:02] Dr Renee White: Was there anything that you wanted to add before. We say our final, uh, goodbye on this one.

[00:48:23] Julie Borninkhof : I think just go easy on yourself. You know, it's wherever you are in your journey of life, there are supports to wrap around [00:48:30] you and. You know, if there are moments to take, just reflect and find face and anchor yourself back down to what it is you want.

[00:48:45] Dr Renee White: If you loved this episode, please hit the subscribe button and leave a review. If you know someone out there who would also love to listen to this episode, please hit the share button so they can benefit from it as [00:49:00] well. You've just listened to another episode of The Science of Motherhood proudly presented by Fill Your Cup, Australia's first doula village.