Shownotes
Join Harry Duran, host of Vertical Farming Podcast, as he welcomes to the show Christine Zimmermann-Loessl, Chairwoman at Association for Vertical Farming. Association for Vertical Farming (AVF for short) is an internationally active nonprofit organization of individuals, companies, research institutions and universities focusing on leading and advancing the sustainable growth and development of the vertical farming movement.
Today, Harry and Christine talk about how Christine’s entrepreneurial spirit and natural curiosity led her from studying philosophy and political science to heading one of the largest vertical farming advocate organizations. Christine speaks to the need for all companies in the vertical farming industry to work together to combat issues like overpopulation, climate change and other existential planetary crises facing our world. Finally, Christine and Harry talk about the critical role technology continues to play in our world and our future as well as the importance of remembering that we are all part of nature. It is at this intersection of technology and nature that vertical farming can play a saving role.
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Key Takeaways
03:41 – Harry welcomes to the show Christine Zimmermann- Loessl who shares the origins of her entrepreneurial spirit, her background in philosophy and political science, and her goals to understand and positively impact the world
10:26 – An early passion for Chinese medicine
17:08 – The origin story of Association for Vertical Farming and early challenges faced
24:29 – The evolution of Christine’s role at AVF and what she’s observed about competitors and the overall industry
30:00 – Relationship-building in the vertical farming space and growing AVF through partnerships
40:53 – Christine makes a specific ask of the audience
45:56 – Harry thanks Christine for joining the show and reiterates where listeners can go to learn more about AVF and connect with Christine
Tweetable Quotes
“My father was an entrepreneur, so I grew up with that spirit of being independent and working in the framework that is set by myself and not by somebody else. I could never imagine myself in an office job from nine to five.” (08:20) (Christine)
“Now, with vertical farming, all of that comes together for me with technology and biology. The marriage of these two important developments in our history, I think, is a really decisive transformation for us.” (14:57) (Christine)
“The mandate [of Association of Vertical Farming] clearly was to raise awareness and build a collaboration and cooperation platform where the few people or institutions who were active in that field had a place together to exchange and grow organically from there.” (20:41) (Christine)
“In the beginning, as a newcomer into that field with a very different background in philosophy and political science and not agriculture, I really played the role of organization setup for the legal and administrative things. There were people in the front representing and knowing much more than me about that and I was really more in the back than I am now. That totally changed, but I really had to grow into that role and into the field to really understand.” (24:36) (Christine)
“Technology is important, but please never forget that we are part of nature. Vertical farming can play a role in freeing land giving back to nature and not using more and more land. That is what my understanding is.” (40:21) (Christine)
Resources Mentioned
Christine’s LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/christineziloessl/
VertiFarm Website – https://www.vertifarm.de/
Association for Vertical Farming Website – https://vertical- farming.net/
Association for Vertical Farming Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/averticalfarm/
Association for Vertical Farming Twitter – https://twitter.com/AVerticalFarm
Association for Vertical Farming LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/company/association-for-vertical- farming/
Association for Vertical Farming YouTube Channel – https://www.youtube.com/c/Vertical-farmingNet/videos
Association for Vertical Farming Instagram – https://www.instagram.com/associationforverticalfarming/
Associations for Vertical Farming Email – INFO@VERTICAL- FARMING.NET
Link to Call of the Forest – https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4590806/
Christine’s Email – CZL@verticalfarming-net
Connect With Us
VFP LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/company/verticalfarmingpodcast
VFP Twitter - https://twitter.com/VerticalFarmPod
VFP Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/direct/inbox/
VFP Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/VerticalFarmPod
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Sponsor Links
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Mentioned in this episode:
2025 Precision Ag Report by iGrowNews
2025 Precision Ag Report by iGrowNews
Transcripts
$680 million poured into precision ag last year.
Speaker:Autonomous weeding robots dominated, and John Deere made 2 acquisitions in 3
Speaker:months. A food company, not an equipment maker, bought a
Speaker:robotics startup to protect its own supply chain. The deals are
Speaker:accelerating, the money is moving, and the winners are already separating from the
Speaker:pack. If you're investing, building, or buying in this space,
Speaker:you need the full picture before your competitors get it. The 2025
Speaker:Precision Agriculture Intelligence Report From iGrow News is now
Speaker:available. Get your copy today at
Speaker:igrownews.com/precision. If you are starting a vertical
Speaker:farm and don't know where to begin or which technology would suit your needs,
Speaker:then reach out to the experts at Cultivated. As indoor farm brokers, they
Speaker:help connect you to the right technology and ensure your project is successful.
Speaker:Best of all, their service is free because they work on behalf of their partners.
Speaker:Visit cultivated.com to learn more. And that's spelled
Speaker:C-U-L-T-I-V-A-T-D.com,
Speaker:or click the link in the show notes. I really played the role
Speaker:for the organizational setup, for the
Speaker:legal and administrative things. The real,
Speaker:let's say, the people in front
Speaker:contacting and representing, knowing much
Speaker:more than me about it. was not me. So I was really
Speaker:more in, in the back than I am now. That totally
Speaker:changed. But I really had to grow into that
Speaker:role and into the— and also into the field
Speaker:to really understand.
Speaker:Welcome to the Vertical Farming Podcast, weekly conversations
Speaker:with fascinating CEOs, founders, and agtech
Speaker:visionaries. Join us every week as we dive deep into the
Speaker:world of vertical farming with your host, Harry Duran.
Speaker:Vertical Farming Podcast, Season 8, Bonus Episode
Speaker:106. We are having a replay of a very
Speaker:popular episode from our archives, and I'll get into
Speaker:just who that is in just a second. But if you missed last
Speaker:episode, we had a great replay episode with one of our more popular
Speaker:episodes of all time. An interview with Michael Sitchinza talking
Speaker:about the exact economics you need to understand when opening up
Speaker:your first farm. It was popular then, and it also was
Speaker:popular in this second wave when we re-released it. And so it's been something that
Speaker:I've been doing as I get ready and the team gets ready for launching episode
Speaker:9. I appreciate you being patient as a listener to hear some of this new
Speaker:content. I know some of you are chomping at the bit as you've gotten a
Speaker:preview of some of the guests that are coming up soon. So thanks
Speaker:for all your patience and for checking out some of this
Speaker:past content. Hopefully you've been able to make your way through some of those archives
Speaker:as well. We've got so many great guests, over 100 solid,
Speaker:enlightening, and very informational episodes that I think you'll
Speaker:appreciate and enjoy. This week's episode is a replay of my
Speaker:conversation with Christine Zimmerman-Lausel. She is
Speaker:the head of the Association for Vertical Farming, and it's tying
Speaker:in very nicely with an event I've got coming up. I'll be attending
Speaker:VertiFarm Dortmund in September, towards the end of September.
Speaker:And you've no doubt, if you've been listening, been hearing some of the promos for
Speaker:that event coming up. So please check that out. I know there's
Speaker:several conferences being mentioned in these past
Speaker:episodes, and there's so many great conferences coming up that it's hard to keep up
Speaker:with all of them. But I'm very grateful to be partnering with several of them,
Speaker:including Vertifarm, HortiAgrinext. I just had a
Speaker:great experience with Indoor AgCon earlier this year and Indoor
Speaker:AgTech NYC as well. If you're not familiar with Vertifarm, you can learn
Speaker:more at vertifarm.de. This is a great conversation
Speaker:with Christine. We learn a bit about her entrepreneurial spirit and how her
Speaker:natural curiosity led her from studying philosophy and political science to leading one of
Speaker:the largest vertical farming advocate organizations. Christine talks about the need for all
Speaker:companies in the vertical farming space to work together to combat issues like
Speaker:overpopulation, climate change, and other planetary crises facing
Speaker:the world. And given that's been what's been happening recently in the world with fires
Speaker:and unfortunately the news coming in today from Maui, been
Speaker:pretty sad to hear. And so this felt like something that was top of mind
Speaker:and felt like something that we needed to talk about. And I felt like sharing
Speaker:Christine's episode was timely. Remember, if you're enjoying this episode, past
Speaker:episodes, and you have not done so already, I'd love nothing
Speaker:more than to kick off season 9 with several new reads of
Speaker:ratings and reviews of this show. So head on over to ratethispodcast.com/vfp.
Speaker:That's VFP for Vertical Forming Podcast. And I would love to read yours out on
Speaker:a future episode. Specifically the one kicking off season 9.
Speaker:Okay, before we jump into this uninterrupted conversation with Christine, here are
Speaker:a few words from the amazing folks that support this show. This year,
Speaker:Vertifarm takes place from September 26th through September 28th at
Speaker:the Exhibition Center in Dortmund, Germany. For those new to
Speaker:Vertifarm, it's the most significant trade fair for next-level farming and new
Speaker:food systems. Their international platform is set to showcase the
Speaker:latest developments in innovative controlled production systems for
Speaker:vegetables, salad crops, herbs, and microgreens, As well as sustainable
Speaker:fish, insect breeding, fruit cultivation, and medicinal plants.
Speaker:Vertifarm is shaping the future of vertical farming and new food systems. Reserve
Speaker:your ticket and learn more at vertifarm.de. That's
Speaker:V-E-R-T-I-F-A-R-M dot D-E. This
Speaker:episode is brought to you by HortiAgriNext, November 20th to the
Speaker:22nd. In this first edition of the conference, you can expect a vibrant show
Speaker:that'll bring together a portfolio of high-level horticulture
Speaker:technology to the Emirates. With the goal of aiding the Emirates to take the next
Speaker:step in becoming more self-sufficient in their food production, aligning with
Speaker:their 2051 goals. The show is expecting 8,000 to 10,000 visitors
Speaker:over the 3 days and will include investors, buyers, curious
Speaker:farmers, government officials, university professors, and association members.
Speaker:Booths are still available and exhibitors are welcome. Partners for the conference include
Speaker:the Abu Dhabi Agriculture and Food Safety Authority, Dutch Greenhouse Delta,
Speaker:and Wageningen University, which will provide a wealth of knowledge and insights.
Speaker:Sessions will include a mix of Emirati and Dutch speakers and will highlight how
Speaker:these different worlds will come together in partnership. Based in Abu Dhabi, the
Speaker:agricultural hub of the UAE, the government's involvement will ensure that
Speaker:companies interested in partnering with the Emirates receive their full support. Co-located
Speaker:with VIV MEA 2023, the premier show in livestock
Speaker:production and animal husbandry, this week will provide a comprehensive look at the
Speaker:entire ag industry supply chain both vertically and horizontally.
Speaker:So Christine Zimmermann-Lausel, chairwoman at the Association for Vertical Farming,
Speaker:thank you for joining me on the Vertical Farming Podcast. Very happy.
Speaker:Thank you, Harry, for having me. We were talking
Speaker:about where we're at, and we're both competing to see who's in the
Speaker:coldest location. Yes, I can't compete.
Speaker:Yeah, what's it like over there where you're at? Where's home for you right now,
Speaker:for the benefit of the listener? Yes, I'm in Munich in
Speaker:Bavaria in the south of Germany. Since— Oh, really? Okay.
Speaker:Yeah, more than 40 years with some
Speaker:breaks. I, I've been living here. Yeah. And were you born and
Speaker:raised there? No, no, no. I was born in Nuremberg,
Speaker:raised in another part of Germany, and then moved to,
Speaker:uh, to Munich when I was, I think, 14, 15. Okay.
Speaker:My, my family, uh, thought it's good to be in a big
Speaker:city for the 3 girls we were— we are.
Speaker:So yes, it was exciting then to be here. It was
Speaker:just when the Olympic Games started in
Speaker:Munich. At that time we moved. So it was really exciting
Speaker:for the bad and the good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting. All what happened in
Speaker:1972. Yeah, the hostages. Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah. So it was an exciting start. Yeah. That's
Speaker:historical moments. Historical. Yes. Yeah. For
Speaker:folks that have not been to Munich, what's— what are some of the
Speaker:highlights? Well, I really like the
Speaker:old part, so the beautiful Nymphenburg Castle
Speaker:in the middle of the city, the summer castle actually
Speaker:of the king. But I also like the opera in
Speaker:the middle of Munich, and I'm a fan of the English
Speaker:Garden. I lived as a student very close to the English Garden.
Speaker:That's the green lung of Munich. And
Speaker:I did my walks with my dog and biked through the
Speaker:university. So it was a nice
Speaker:experience being a student in Munich. I studied at the
Speaker:Ludwig Maximilians University. Okay. And how
Speaker:was life growing up in Munich? That was good. Did you live in more
Speaker:of a city proper or were you in more rural area?
Speaker:No, really at the, yeah, at the city,
Speaker:not center, but a little bit of, of in the western
Speaker:part, outskirts, 10 minutes to
Speaker:downtown. So, okay, that was really convenient.
Speaker:Yeah. And the family had a flat. What
Speaker:was your experience growing up in terms of, uh, when you— when I
Speaker:grew up in New York, I was born in El Salvador and I think
Speaker:it was the '80s, so there was a lot of packaged
Speaker:foods. I don't think there was a lot of information available. We seem to have
Speaker:lost our connection to real food and
Speaker:farms and nature. And I'm wondering what your experience was like growing up.
Speaker:Yeah, but we moved from a rural area
Speaker:where we had the farm across our house, where I could
Speaker:see the cows on the meadows, buying the
Speaker:milk there just across the little street that was
Speaker:in that, yeah, it was a big village actually
Speaker:with schools and shops and, but it
Speaker:was farms around directly. So, and the hens,
Speaker:so the eggs, I just got to my neighbors
Speaker:and we bought them fresh there. And the same with
Speaker:the meat and the milk. So I had that
Speaker:very direct connection with where food came from.
Speaker:is really coming from and that experience. And I loved
Speaker:it. I loved the cows. I mean, every
Speaker:day I walked there and really felt close.
Speaker:I felt to be in a good place in that age between
Speaker:9 and 14 in the rural areas.
Speaker:And I always missed it. I never needed a big city,
Speaker:but I still live in a big city. It's a bit
Speaker:of a contradiction maybe. In my older age, I definitely want to
Speaker:be on the countryside again, although I'm 66 already.
Speaker:Talk a little bit about what your plans were. I know we may be
Speaker:going a bit far back, but as you were finishing
Speaker:university and during the, you know, what we call here the
Speaker:9-to-5 life, you know, what were your aspirations? You know, what type of work were
Speaker:you aspiring to do? What kind of projects were you excited about?
Speaker:Definitely never a 9-to-5 job. My father was an
Speaker:entrepreneur, so I grew up with that spirit to be
Speaker:independent and work in the
Speaker:framework that is set by myself and not by somebody
Speaker:else. And I could never imagine myself in an
Speaker:office job from 9 to 5. Somebody else gives me some papers
Speaker:and I had to finish tasks. So that was not on
Speaker:my list, no. And in my studies, you know, I
Speaker:studied Chinese, so Sinology, philosophy, and political
Speaker:science. So the early aspiration was
Speaker:changing the world to a better world and impacting
Speaker:the world and understanding the world a little bit better.
Speaker:So I traveled, I went to Asia, I
Speaker:studied in Taiwan and worked then in
Speaker:China. So no, not a
Speaker:9-to-5 something for me. And I always had
Speaker:so much pleasure, satisfaction creating
Speaker:something new. For me, creating a new company,
Speaker:creating a new organization, not work. It's
Speaker:the pleasure, it's the satisfaction, what I get my
Speaker:energy from. And I did that from the
Speaker:very beginning. Only when I really had to earn money,
Speaker:that was always the, let's say, the
Speaker:less satisfactory part, I choose to
Speaker:be in a regular job. But even in that
Speaker:business career, founding my own computer company,
Speaker:representing Acer, that was very, very
Speaker:new when I was studying in Taiwan. started
Speaker:a trade office for my father there besides
Speaker:studying and teaching. I never could imagine
Speaker:myself being from my age, 25,
Speaker:finishing my master's and then the rest of my life in one
Speaker:job. So I really have experience in
Speaker:many fields in creating. Yeah. Yeah. I'm
Speaker:wondering where the interest in Chinese medicine— I'm
Speaker:fairly spiritual person and I love alternative medicine, and I've,
Speaker:I've looked in and read about everything about holistic medicine
Speaker:and naturopaths. So it's not an area that's foreign to me. I'm just
Speaker:curious when that interest started for you.
Speaker:Already in school, I was interested in, in China,
Speaker:and as soon as I went to
Speaker:China to really understand the culture better
Speaker:In university, you cannot learn something about people and a
Speaker:country really. So that was in the
Speaker:late '70s. And I decided to
Speaker:either give up learning Chinese or to go to the country.
Speaker:And the mainland was not open. And I was very
Speaker:interested in Mao Zedong's ideas, changing the
Speaker:society. Very leftist
Speaker:thinking that that could be really the change
Speaker:for society. It was not. I had to learn
Speaker:that the tough way. But that was really then
Speaker:the reason when I was in Taiwan, I met a Chinese, traditional
Speaker:Chinese doctor who took me on
Speaker:his visits to patients and gave
Speaker:me the first introduction on what acupuncture, what
Speaker:herbal medicine can do. And that impressed me deeply.
Speaker:what I saw, how he could help people, poor
Speaker:people. I mean, they didn't pay him. We went in the
Speaker:night on trains across Taiwan
Speaker:to go to really serious sick people.
Speaker:And he was a dedicated— I mean, that is really the idea
Speaker:of a traditional doctor. You cure before
Speaker:people get really sick or that is what you have to
Speaker:do, the prevention of sickness. And
Speaker:then it started my interest and it's still
Speaker:there. And then you returned to Germany and you began,
Speaker:you started your own practice and you started developing centers in
Speaker:Germany. Later, later, later on. No, in
Speaker:between I had that very technical background from my
Speaker:father's business and buying
Speaker:semiconductors in Asia. So I was always
Speaker:very close to technology and
Speaker:socialized by technology is something really good.
Speaker:So I came into that early stage of computer
Speaker:development in Taiwan where they did the first IBM
Speaker:clones. Wow. And so I had
Speaker:that contact through my, my father's office and
Speaker:Siemens and really big companies. And when I
Speaker:returned to Germany, I represented that first
Speaker:computer company importing personal computers to
Speaker:Germany. So that was in between. And then I got
Speaker:really, let's say, fed up with pressing the
Speaker:last penny out of the suppliers and
Speaker:negotiating good deals for only one
Speaker:part, and that was the Western companies and not
Speaker:the local people in the, yeah, in the really
Speaker:dirty backyard of production at that time
Speaker:in the '80s. So I didn't want to go
Speaker:ahead with it anymore. And that is when I started the
Speaker:Asia Network Information Center, still connected to
Speaker:an online platform for information on
Speaker:Asia, but much more in the direction of
Speaker:development work, what I did later then in China for the
Speaker:Konrad Adenauer Foundation. It must have been exciting
Speaker:because, I mean, '80s, For personal computers, I mean,
Speaker:it's really, really— it was super early days. It's almost
Speaker:like the internet in like late '90s, you know, just to be
Speaker:experiencing that and to be one of the first companies to have that
Speaker:connection to create those clones. And, and so
Speaker:it's fascinating for me that you had the interest and the passion
Speaker:for Chinese medicine while at the same time this
Speaker:other passion for technology, which sometimes they, they don't mix.
Speaker:And so it seems to be— Not to use a cliché term, but the
Speaker:yin and yang for you is the mix of the, you know,
Speaker:it's interesting. Yeah. And now with vertical
Speaker:farming, all of that comes together for me.
Speaker:Technology, but also biology. The
Speaker:marriage of these 2 so
Speaker:important developments in our
Speaker:history, I think, are a really decisive
Speaker:transformation for us. Machines and
Speaker:us. I mean, us, I mean life. And that
Speaker:is really a very, very exciting topic in
Speaker:time. And we have now, we are at a moment,
Speaker:I mean, we need to combine that to
Speaker:find solutions for the future. It's really
Speaker:something. It's not frightening me if we are very
Speaker:aware of what we are doing. But we need these
Speaker:tools, we need technology. I don't have any
Speaker:problem with that. I was the
Speaker:first person in the EU Commission
Speaker:for Asia Consulting who had an email address.
Speaker:None of my older colleagues, I mean, even didn't
Speaker:know about that. But that was I mean, that
Speaker:we cannot— I mean, you cannot probably imagine how that
Speaker:is. When I studied in Taiwan, I had to wait
Speaker:6 weeks for a letter from my parents, and
Speaker:they had to wait. And we had to go
Speaker:downtown to have a prepaid call,
Speaker:which we could only afford once a month because it was— Now I take
Speaker:my handy, my mobile phone, and Or send a WhatsApp.
Speaker:It's total— times really have dramatically
Speaker:changed and for the good. Yeah, for the good, I
Speaker:think. I mean, just this conversation that we're having now, for the benefit of the
Speaker:listener, we're using a tool called Squadcast and we're able to have a video
Speaker:conversation over the internet. And the quality is going to be good
Speaker:as well because this technology captures the audio locally. So
Speaker:it's going to sound good. So we're which is fascinating. And, and I think I've
Speaker:always been a fan of technology as well. And I'm wondering, you
Speaker:mentioned and introduced the work with vertical farming. So it looks
Speaker:like you started the organization around 2013. So what I'm
Speaker:curious about is what was— where were you at that point in your
Speaker:career? And how did the idea, the concept of
Speaker:vertical farming, indoor farming, like, how did you start to become aware of it?
Speaker:Very simple. My son brought it into my life or in
Speaker:our life, family life. He went to Zealand for
Speaker:finding out what his purpose in life, worked there for Greenpeace
Speaker:and traveled and so on. And he wrote
Speaker:shortly before he came, I found what I want to do and that is vertical
Speaker:farming. Never heard, that was 2012. I never
Speaker:heard about that. Okay, okay,
Speaker:give me some more information. So vertical farm, the book of
Speaker:Dickson Despormier he read, and he immediately
Speaker:contacted him, and then they exchanged. And we
Speaker:met then on his way back to Germany. I said, before you
Speaker:come back to Germany after a year, let us meet and talk
Speaker:in Asia. I mean, we have been in China.
Speaker:He has been as a young boy in China with me, with the family,
Speaker:so he was very close. So We met in Burma, in
Speaker:Myanmar, to talk about the future.
Speaker:And then I got really interested and said, okay,
Speaker:I read. I said, I totally understand you.
Speaker:That's something I can connect to. It's really answering
Speaker:a lot of challenges and it is
Speaker:a part of the solution, probably. But then
Speaker:that was so early that hardly anybody has heard
Speaker:about it except that very small community. And then,
Speaker:yeah, the idea came up and I said, okay, I'm
Speaker:interested, very interested. And that is, I was an EU
Speaker:fundraiser at that time, but that was a
Speaker:bread shop just, and not really something with
Speaker:passion for me. And so I said, okay, I know
Speaker:how to start organizations, startups, and I've
Speaker:done that before several times. I help you set up
Speaker:that organization. But from the beginning was international
Speaker:because of my network and but also
Speaker:because we immediately understood that is an
Speaker:international, a global topic and a global
Speaker:challenges we have to answer. And here we were,
Speaker:and that's how it started. Seven people, a handful of people
Speaker:who who said okay, that's what. we are going to do.
Speaker:We will build up the biggest nonprofit organization.
Speaker:And I said, my condition is to be
Speaker:nonprofit because I don't want to be in business, to
Speaker:have a startup or— yeah, to raise awareness and
Speaker:understanding for the topic. That's how it started. Yeah. So
Speaker:talk to me about the early days and what was—
Speaker:you had the idea for creating the organization. And what was the
Speaker:intention, given your experiences, obviously everything we've just talked
Speaker:about that led you up until this point? What was
Speaker:the plan? Like, who was the outreach going to be? And what was— I'm just
Speaker:curious about— I'm always fascinated by origin stories, so I'm curious about those
Speaker:early days. How were you thinking about organizing
Speaker:the, the structure of the organization itself? And then what was, what was the
Speaker:mandate? You know, what, what were you looking to do and what were you looking
Speaker:to So the mandate clearly was to
Speaker:raise awareness and build a network, a collaboration and
Speaker:cooperation platform, that the few
Speaker:people, the few companies, the few institutions
Speaker:who were active in that field at that time have a
Speaker:place together to exchange and to
Speaker:grow from there organically, like a cell. You know,
Speaker:biology. So life. Yeah. That is exactly.
Speaker:And I really thought, or we were persuaded,
Speaker:once you do something at the right time,
Speaker:it will grow organically and by itself. We didn't
Speaker:have a penny, just, I mean, the little money we
Speaker:started, I think, with €500 or something.
Speaker:And that was not a concern at all. It was not about
Speaker:how much money do we need, do we make a business plan. No, it was
Speaker:really, we know it's right, we know it, we need
Speaker:to do that, and it will be
Speaker:successful and working. And what we needed was a
Speaker:computer, a telephone, and a desk. And I had that
Speaker:office, so that was not an investment. And time
Speaker:and dedication. And all of the people who were there at
Speaker:that very beginning were dedicated.
Speaker:Nobody asked, okay, how many hours do I have to work
Speaker:and do I get a paycheck? No, it was pro bono
Speaker:and voluntary. And it worked. I mean, I called
Speaker:universities, said, okay, this is who we are,
Speaker:this is our mission, and are you in? And People
Speaker:said, yes, yes, yes, sure. I mean, I didn't
Speaker:call Siemens in the beginning. I called
Speaker:people and organizations who had been in that
Speaker:field. Like, it was the university
Speaker:Max, my son, was studying. Haas
Speaker:University was one of the, or is still the leading
Speaker:one in that field. It was Wageningen. University
Speaker:Wageningen at that time was very critical about vertical
Speaker:farming. And Columbia University was
Speaker:Dickson Despommiers, he supported us. And a
Speaker:university here in Stuttgart, Hohenheim, the German
Speaker:Aerospace Institute, and they gathered and
Speaker:it grew. What were some of the challenges in those early days?
Speaker:To explain what vertical farming is. It's still
Speaker:the challenge. Yeah, people had no clue.
Speaker:If at that time when you did a Google search, you got
Speaker:maybe 7 hits, now you get 70
Speaker:million probably. It was unbelievable. When we
Speaker:looked for the right name, Association for Vertical Farming, I
Speaker:mean, after nights of brainstorming with a good
Speaker:glass of red wine or white wine, That name came
Speaker:up. It was not clear from the beginning how we should
Speaker:name ourselves. People had not heard about
Speaker:vertical farming. What is that? No idea.
Speaker:So that is less the challenge, but it's
Speaker:still the challenge to explain what are
Speaker:the benefits, why do we need it. The questions are
Speaker:still the same. Why don't we just use sun
Speaker:and soil? And now with climate change
Speaker:and COVID, I think that really
Speaker:helped a lot in these past 2 years.
Speaker:Thank you for that. You're welcome. Yeah, unfortunately.
Speaker:What was your role early on and how has that changed to
Speaker:where the role you serve now at present day?
Speaker:In the beginning, as a newcomer into
Speaker:that field with a very different
Speaker:background from philosophy and political science
Speaker:and not agriculture, I really played
Speaker:the role for the organizational
Speaker:setup, for the legal and
Speaker:administrative things. The real Let's say
Speaker:the people in front contacting and
Speaker:representing, knowing much more than me about it,
Speaker:was not me. So I was really more in
Speaker:the back than I am now. That totally changed.
Speaker:But I really had to grow into that role and
Speaker:into the— and also into the field to really
Speaker:understand. Now I've traveled nearly all over the
Speaker:world and I've seen so many vertical farms,
Speaker:I've met so many people and talked to them that my
Speaker:understanding, my picture is completely different than
Speaker:2013. Can you talk a little bit about
Speaker:your experience as you were learning more about the industry, as
Speaker:more companies were coming to the space, and probably just maybe
Speaker:you know, when you think about starting in 2013 and think about how much
Speaker:investment money has been coming into this space, venture capital money, in the,
Speaker:you know, past, in, you know, 2 or 3 years, and the scale and the
Speaker:size of the projects, you know, when you look at the
Speaker:AeroFarms and the Bowerys and the Plenties, and, you know,
Speaker:the scale at which these organizations are operating is
Speaker:having a big impact. And obviously they're getting a lot of
Speaker:attention and they're getting a lot of publicity and
Speaker:exposure, which is good overall for the industry. And so I've
Speaker:just been wondering what your take on it is as you start
Speaker:to meet and have conversations with the CEOs of all these
Speaker:companies and where you think
Speaker:the organization, the association can play a role and if
Speaker:there's any ideas or requests
Speaker:for partnerships with these types of organizations that you think would be helpful?
Speaker:Yeah, let me put it like that. The
Speaker:need for cooperation and collaboration is still
Speaker:immensely— the height of data, of
Speaker:sharing, of being willing to
Speaker:really exchange is still very
Speaker:limited. And 2 years ago, I would have said
Speaker:we are in a nascent state of development in that
Speaker:vertical farming industry. The part of
Speaker:the production is maybe
Speaker:0.01% of all the
Speaker:agricultural output. So it's still tiny,
Speaker:it's insignificant. So we would need
Speaker:more cooperation that vertical farms and vertical farm
Speaker:produce is more accepted, more widely
Speaker:implemented. And I still miss that.
Speaker:I still miss it, especially from the big players,
Speaker:BioPharm, Plenty, Bioré. They could
Speaker:collaborate, they could be more open,
Speaker:and that would really help the whole industry. And
Speaker:especially under the circumstances that climate
Speaker:change is pressing, that the planet is really
Speaker:on the brink and we would need to
Speaker:implement vertical farming widely and not just
Speaker:having a big farm here and there. None of the big
Speaker:players who have announced since years to
Speaker:have 100 vertical farms here and 50 here
Speaker:did it and couldn't do it. And I totally understand
Speaker:for many reasons, for the investment but also for the technology.
Speaker:The technology was not mature enough
Speaker:to really being able to
Speaker:expand in the way they wanted it or they planned it
Speaker:or they announced it. They often announce it much too early
Speaker:instead of waiting till they're really able to do it. And
Speaker:then expectations are high and then the
Speaker:disappointments are high and the trust is going down.
Speaker:So all of that is not really
Speaker:considered enough, and that is why an association
Speaker:like the AVF is so important. We are unbiased.
Speaker:People, especially politicians, want from us
Speaker:unbiased, true data and
Speaker:information. They don't want to have the marketing stuff
Speaker:from the companies. So that is an important
Speaker:role the IVF needs and plays in
Speaker:the industry. And as I
Speaker:said, collaboration and
Speaker:exchange is so much needed because we
Speaker:don't have the time to wait. The time is running, the clock
Speaker:is running. If we do not act now,
Speaker:politics is not ready to really move forward.
Speaker:It is the industry and that has to do it, and
Speaker:collaboration would help a lot. Can you talk a little bit
Speaker:about the companies that have partnered
Speaker:with AVF or the relationships you've built with companies in
Speaker:this space and give a couple of examples of
Speaker:how that has been a successful partnership and what's been the
Speaker:benefit for AVF in terms of working with these companies?
Speaker:Yeah, the visibility, I think, is one of the
Speaker:major benefits AVF members have, and
Speaker:that is what the feedback is, um, to
Speaker:be seen as a player, what they do and
Speaker:how they act and what they can offer. That is
Speaker:what we can enable, I think, with either
Speaker:our conferences, our webinars, or just connecting
Speaker:members with each other. And that has been
Speaker:growing in the last 3 years substantially.
Speaker:This is probably also the reason why we are
Speaker:growing so much, because people or
Speaker:companies see that benefit and that is what they
Speaker:appreciate and what they need to,
Speaker:to have. No, I was going to ask if you could explain
Speaker:for listeners that are new to
Speaker:the— who are hearing about the organization, a little bit
Speaker:about the roadmap and the plans that you have for the growth of
Speaker:AVF and how to deepen those relationships with
Speaker:these companies. Yeah, I mean, our big plan,
Speaker:we have worked on that enough for a year, is a certification
Speaker:CEA certification sustainability produce.
Speaker:So we have developed with industry
Speaker:players across the globe to develop, develop
Speaker:criteria for a label for the produce of
Speaker:vertical farming so consumers can easily
Speaker:see, okay, how sustainably that
Speaker:produce has been produced in a vertical farm, where it has
Speaker:been produced, how much water was used, how much
Speaker:electricity, and, and, and. And that will come
Speaker:into public, or we will go public with it in
Speaker:March already. And then farms can be
Speaker:certified, and I think that will help a
Speaker:lot of transparent— for transparency
Speaker:and also visibility again. That is one of our
Speaker:major projects for this year. But the other
Speaker:big thing for us is Vertifarm, the
Speaker:first vertical farming trade show in September
Speaker:this year with Messe Dortmund. So to
Speaker:really help the industry grow and be seen as
Speaker:a significant industry in the world, we
Speaker:needed a trade show of our own, not being part of a
Speaker:horticulture show or being part of
Speaker:fruit and, and product show, but really having a
Speaker:vertical farming and new food systems trade show.
Speaker:And we will run and organize the complete
Speaker:content, the program around and within
Speaker:Vertifarm. That is a, in my understanding
Speaker:and also We consulted and talked a lot with members and
Speaker:non-members. Are we ready for that?
Speaker:And it's a bit risky, yes, but we have always
Speaker:been the organization to be first runners. So let's take a
Speaker:little risk. And we found with Borussia Dortmund
Speaker:an ideal partner who was willing to really put also a
Speaker:lot of money into it to go for it. And I
Speaker:really think it's the right time. 2022, to
Speaker:start with it on a yearly basis to get the
Speaker:vertical farming industry its own show. I'm
Speaker:sure it will be a success because sitting
Speaker:really in person again and not hybrid and
Speaker:not online, sitting with
Speaker:people and partners and discussing projects and
Speaker:exchanging and seeing is really
Speaker:super beneficial and so much needed, especially
Speaker:after this third year in COVID. And
Speaker:end of September, I'm very sure, like
Speaker:last year we did the 5th AVF Summit in Munich
Speaker:with the support of the Bavarian government. Also, that was a big
Speaker:step for us that the traditional agricultural
Speaker:government was showing clearly, okay, that is an
Speaker:important topic for us. Um, September will be for
Speaker:sure possible, COVID Omicron or
Speaker:whatever we have, that people can meet in person.
Speaker:So these are— yeah. Yeah, I think people are—
Speaker:yeah, I think people are learning, and it's happening here in the States, that I
Speaker:think we are learning how to live with
Speaker:COVID and the variants. And I think we all realize that we can't
Speaker:let it dictate our lives forever because we can't be
Speaker:indoors forever. And I think it's important to find a way
Speaker:to just understand the importance of taking care of our own health,
Speaker:but also maintaining our own sovereignty and our ability to make
Speaker:the decisions we feel are right for ourselves. And so I think more and more
Speaker:people are opening up to that. So I'm wondering if that event's going to be
Speaker:In Germany, in Munich? No, not in Munich, in Dortmund.
Speaker:Then we are closer to the Benelux and Netherlands, more in the
Speaker:center of Germany. So it's northwest
Speaker:Dortmund near Cologne. And they have a new
Speaker:exhibition, beautiful exhibition area. Yeah,
Speaker:I think it's a very good location. And it's
Speaker:the most, 20 million people living
Speaker:around that area. So just that makes it really
Speaker:interesting. There's been a couple of smaller events, and I'm going to be
Speaker:attending one in Las Vegas called Indoor AgCon,
Speaker:indoor.ag. And so I've been working with the team there. They've been
Speaker:sponsors of the show, so I'm grateful to that. So I think they're partnering with
Speaker:the horticulture event as well. So, and it's a couple of days,
Speaker:so that, that'll be my first vertical farming conference. But I'll—
Speaker:but definitely keep us Keep us up to date on the,
Speaker:your conference in September as you get more information, because I'd be happy to
Speaker:promote it as well. Oh, wonderful. Yeah, you're more
Speaker:than welcome to come. How about that? I've
Speaker:never been to that part of the world. Oh,
Speaker:really? Okay. Yeah, so it's time to travel.
Speaker:Is information about the conference on the website yet? Yes,
Speaker:yeah, we have our own website. The Vertifarm
Speaker:website is on. Oh yes, and I, I don't want
Speaker:to forget, in May in Bangkok, HortiAsia, we
Speaker:will run a conference program and a vertical farming
Speaker:pavilion at HortiAsia. It is one of the
Speaker:biggest or the biggest Asian events, and
Speaker:especially now as we can't
Speaker:really enter China, where— I mean, China is
Speaker:a very big and important market, but it's so difficult.
Speaker:So Bangkok for us is a very good
Speaker:balancing event for us. A lot of Asian
Speaker:players will go there, and Thailand is opening up
Speaker:to vertical farming a lot, and Singapore is closed.
Speaker:So I think also be in that region for
Speaker:AVF, it is very important. Yeah, so I have the
Speaker:website and we'll provide all the links in the show notes for this episode, but
Speaker:it's vertifarm.de for the location, for the website.
Speaker:Yes. And if— are you looking for sponsors? Are you looking
Speaker:for getting the word out about companies to attend?
Speaker:Absolutely, yes. I mean, we're especially
Speaker:looking forward to have US companies there,
Speaker:Asian companies. I think we will have companies from Africa
Speaker:and South America attending, and
Speaker:Europe will be very much present. A lot of quite
Speaker:exciting things in the vertical farming world will
Speaker:be published in the coming 3 to 4 months. Can't
Speaker:talk about it now, but you will see some really
Speaker:big news and surprises here in Europe. So that's
Speaker:one reason also to show the world that
Speaker:Europe is really active in that field and capable
Speaker:of new technologies and interesting new developments.
Speaker:Robotics and machine learning is
Speaker:so important in vertical farming. But
Speaker:still, we have to find a good balance between
Speaker:automation and technology and having
Speaker:also systems that are locally— because we are doing a
Speaker:project in Africa that is really important for my
Speaker:heart— that agroforestry, regenerative
Speaker:agriculture, and vertical farming can be
Speaker:a wonderful match to food
Speaker:security, re-naturing and
Speaker:helping really the local people on
Speaker:another level probably than we do it here at the
Speaker:moment to go into that new field of farming,
Speaker:to have innovation. Yeah, it's interesting, this concept of
Speaker:reforestation and marrying it with, you know, the
Speaker:intent and the efforts that are
Speaker:happening now in the world of vertical farming. It makes
Speaker:sense because I'm familiar with that movement as well. My partner is really
Speaker:passionate about nature and trees. And I don't know if you've seen a
Speaker:Netflix documentary called Call of the Forest, which
Speaker:is about the importance of reforestation. Oh, wonderful. It's
Speaker:really good as well. Yeah. You know, my Chinese sign
Speaker:is wood, so I really feel
Speaker:connected to trees and to nature. As I said,
Speaker:technology is important, an important tool, but
Speaker:please never forget that we are part of nature and
Speaker:that vertical farming can play a role
Speaker:freeing land, giving back to nature and not
Speaker:using more and more land. That is how my understanding is.
Speaker:And that is what we want to try now in a first project in
Speaker:Uganda and Cameroon. And I'm very
Speaker:passionate about it. We would need donations for that, for example.
Speaker:That would be wonderful. So many
Speaker:projects and opportunities, and obviously, you know, they all need funding and they all
Speaker:need prioritization. So I'm wondering, as you think about the
Speaker:challenges you have coming up in getting awareness for AVF and
Speaker:in growing the organization, is there an ask that you
Speaker:have of this audience specifically? My
Speaker:most— I mean, what I always try
Speaker:to communicate is that we have to
Speaker:use technology wisely. It's not just there
Speaker:to implement something new we have
Speaker:developed. It has to make sense and has to be
Speaker:reasonable and useful in the sense that
Speaker:it has a purpose for the betterment
Speaker:of life of the people. And I think that is
Speaker:an important message I would like to tell the
Speaker:audience. But also, please, I mean, don't
Speaker:compete when there is no
Speaker:need for competition and closing up.
Speaker:Share what you can share. And that is
Speaker:also I think, a very important
Speaker:need of our times. Yeah, I think it's been really
Speaker:important because naturally, as I speak to companies on this podcast,
Speaker:a lot of them do similar things. But the constant
Speaker:thread through these conversations has been that this is a
Speaker:pressing need and we need as many people working on this
Speaker:project and working on this effort as possible. And so they're really,
Speaker:as much as there is a bit of competition, competition in the space to the
Speaker:extent that we can find ways to work together. And I think the work that
Speaker:you're doing with the AVF helps to be that bridge, maybe that
Speaker:neutral bridge, you know, that Switzerland but in Germany,
Speaker:just that neutral place for companies to come together to find ways to
Speaker:collaborate. Yes. And the last 2
Speaker:years I saw that more and more, especially last
Speaker:year. I really appreciate it. And then
Speaker:that gives me a lot of energy for my work when I I see
Speaker:that industry players, big ones, are also coming
Speaker:in and understand that they need collaboration and they
Speaker:want it. And that is really, I think,
Speaker:a change. I see that change coming now.
Speaker:And all of the players who are not
Speaker:willing to share and cooperate will be
Speaker:left out at the end. It's really, how do you say in English, a
Speaker:call of the time, or
Speaker:how do you say, how do you, do you know what I mean?
Speaker:Yeah, I mean, it's almost like a call to action.
Speaker:A call to action, right. Thanks. Yeah, that
Speaker:it is. Yeah. And I see more
Speaker:companies gathering in the AVF, having that
Speaker:mindset. And that's very nice to see. That's a good
Speaker:development. And then I invite everybody
Speaker:to come and be part of that.
Speaker:And so when organizations or individuals, I see that you have different
Speaker:price points for people. So even if you're one person or all the
Speaker:way up to multinational corporations, they can join at different levels.
Speaker:And then I imagine there's different benefits for the different levels that you join,
Speaker:but essentially once you join, you become part of this community and begin to have
Speaker:conversations within the community as well. Yes. I mean,
Speaker:for the companies, there are definitely more benefits because
Speaker:they get reductions in prices for tickets and
Speaker:speaking positions and all of that. That's for
Speaker:an individual, maybe not that so important, but Any
Speaker:individual who is supporting us is part of the
Speaker:community and can reach out to
Speaker:everybody. And I think that is also for the
Speaker:startups, that is what they mostly give us as
Speaker:feedback. For them to connect and be
Speaker:seen from the bigger players
Speaker:and to hook up with them is a golden
Speaker:opportunity. But that is also something
Speaker:the bigger players appreciate, that they see,
Speaker:okay, I have a very, very
Speaker:high level of knowledge here where I
Speaker:can have a
Speaker:cooperation or even being partnering
Speaker:with them for a project or they need
Speaker:robotics in inner systems, why do you need to
Speaker:develop it by yourself if you have already
Speaker:a pretty perfect startup who has
Speaker:focused on that? And that is, I think this is
Speaker:what more and more people see. So I think that's
Speaker:very admirable vision. And so we'll make sure we have links to all of
Speaker:those. It's vertical-farming And I'll
Speaker:have links for people to join and sign up. And I
Speaker:encourage our listeners, because anyone who's listening to this show is someone who's interested
Speaker:in this space, and I would imagine you'd find a level that you
Speaker:can join on and to support that work that Christine and the team is
Speaker:doing. I want to thank you for coming on the show. I really enjoyed our
Speaker:conversation. And I think I've heard about the organization as I started the
Speaker:podcast, as I was doing my research, probably a couple of years ago. years ago.
Speaker:So I'm very happy that we finally were able to connect and to
Speaker:hear your story. And I think your background, your
Speaker:history, your interests, it's very fascinating to see how all those
Speaker:things have come together for you to have this as your mission now,
Speaker:the AVF. And I think what you're doing is really positive work for
Speaker:the industry. So I applaud you for that. Thank you so much,
Speaker:Harry. It was very enjoyable to talk
Speaker:to Yeah, thanks a lot. And so the best place for
Speaker:folks to learn more is at the website. Is there any other contact information
Speaker:you wanted to provide? Write to me. Send me an email,
Speaker:czl@verticalfarming-net,
Speaker:and then, yeah, I'll answer. Okay,
Speaker:sounds good. We'll make sure we have that contact information available as well.
Speaker:I appreciate you taking the time to share your story with my audience, Christine.
Speaker:Thank you for having me. Yeah, it was a pleasure. I
Speaker:appreciate you checking in again and listening to this replay of Christine.
Speaker:I know there's a lot of content available for you. Hopefully you've made your way
Speaker:through most of the catalog as we prepare for season 9. So please do that
Speaker:if you have not done so already. Because this is a bonus episode for season
Speaker:8, I want to continue to thank the partnership we've had over the years with
Speaker:Cultivated. If you are So if you're looking into a vertical farm and don't know
Speaker:where to start or which technology would suit your needs, reach out to them today.
Speaker:And best of all, their service is free because they work on behalf of their
Speaker:partners. Learn more at cultivatd.com, and that's spelled C-U-L-T-I-V-A-T-D.com.
Speaker:Just leave out that last E. Podcast production and marketing provided by
Speaker:Fullcast. Learn more at the full slate of services we
Speaker:provide at fullcast.co/services.
Speaker:Okay, looks like everything is lining up for next week. week and the kickoff of
Speaker:season 9. So please stay tuned and share with as many people as
Speaker:possible so that they follow and subscribe and get the episode pushed to their
Speaker:podcast player of choice as soon as it's available. Until we meet again, here's to
Speaker:your health. Thanks for listening. To read the full show notes for
Speaker:this episode, which includes any links mentioned in the episode, as
Speaker:well as a full show transcription, visit
Speaker:verticalfarmingpodcast.com. There you can sign
Speaker:up Sign up for our email list to be notified when new episodes are published.
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