Welcome back to Lending Leadership: The Mortgage Pros, where we dive deep into the world of mortgage, real estate marketing, and recruiting through candid conversations and practical advice.

On today’s episode, we welcomed Sara Lohse, founder of Branded Media, podcast host, strategist, producer, and author. This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in launching, guesting on, or optimizing their podcast presence—especially in a world flooded with AI-generated pitches and surface-level outreach.

Sara joins us to unpack the right and wrong ways to pitch yourself for podcast guest spots, the real purpose behind podcasting beyond vanity metrics, and how to maximize the connections and impact you make both as a guest and a host. We tackled everything from the basics of guesting, to call-to-action strategies, to why your microphone etiquette matters, and ways to leverage each episode far beyond its initial post date.

We also had some real talk on the AI invasion—why relying on bots for outreach is getting worse, and why authentic human connection is still the thing that sets you apart, both for growing your influence and closing actual business.

Key takeaways:

1. Put Audience Value Ahead of Your Bio
2. As podcast hosts, our obligation is to our listeners, not the guests. When pitching yourself for podcasts, focus less on your accomplishments and more on exactly what value you can bring to the show’s audience. Personalize pitches by referencing the show’s goals and explaining how your expertise directly serves their listeners 00:00.
3. Start with Your "Why" and a Real Call to Action
4. Guesting is a great entry point into podcasting, but don’t overlook the homework. Know why you want to be on a specific show and have a clear, audience-oriented call to action something that gives rather than asks, like a free resource, newsletter signup, or helpful guide. Don’t jump straight to promoting your product or services 06:01.
5. Lead with Generosity and Authenticity
6. Service-oriented industries like mortgage and real estate are built on relationships. Bring a spirit of giving when you show up, offer value, provide free resources, and focus on genuine connection. Transactional, self-centered pitches or AI-generated messages only alienate hosts and their audiences 09:14.
7. Effort Compounds Preparation and Follow-Up Matter
8. Invest in a decent mic, record in a quiet space, and respect the production value of shows you appear on. But don’t stop there: capitalize on each appearance by sharing your episode, converting it into blogs and social media snippets, and nurturing your connection with hosts and their networks. True momentum in podcasting comes from effort before, during, and after you’re on air 11:53.
9. Success Isn’t Just Numbers Focus on Connection and Long-Term Impact
10. Podcasting isn’t about collecting downloads like trophies; it’s about opening doors: building authority, cultivating relationships, increasing conversions through touchpoints, gaining longevity for your ideas, and reaching targeted audiences. The average episode gets 27 downloads in its first week. Imagine those people in your living room, not a stadium. Changing your perspective on what “success” looks like can energize your strategy and long-term business impact 16:01.

Whether you’re just curious about starting a podcast, looking to guest more effectively, or want to overhaul how you pitch yourself, today’s deep dive with Sara Lohse is packed with actionable insights you can put to use right away. And if you want to guest on Lending Leadership, take Sara’s advice: craft a thoughtful pitch, and we just might read it!

As a podcast host, the only people that we have any responsibility to is our listeners.

Sarah, why are people so bad at pitching themselves for podcasts? Why do people constantly tell me, oh, I want to start a podcast, or I want to be on your podcast, but then they don't do anything with it? Or people that I don't know pitch me all the time, especially on LinkedIn, and they have obviously Never watched an episode and it's just a bot constantly pitching.

Is—

why? Stop doing that, people. What's with that?

Stop doing it.

Stop doing it.

Honestly, I think the short answer— so I mean, this has been an issue for years. This has been an issue since as long as I've been in podcasting, and it is what originally almost got me into podcasting, was just trying to make the guesting side better. But I think a lot of it is just getting worse and worse because of AI. And like all of these pitches that I get and that you get, it's so obviously written by AI. It has nothing to do with the show that they're pitching to. It's just like highlighting and applauding the guest. And it's been like that forever. But the problem is that it's working-ish, I guess.

Because like enough crap against the wall, something will stick, I guess.

I guess because like, I mean, it's a business model that a lot of people have been using for years and like it's been working, but it doesn't really work well and it annoys the hosts and it's, it's terrible. It, yeah, it, you, it needs to be changed. It needs to be, you gotta do better.

Well, and that's what we're talking about today on Lending Leadership. Sarah Losey is here with Brandon Media and we're talking about that. I hear constantly, you know, people wanna do podcasts, and you should be doing podcasts, but there is a really strategic way to go about this where you don't sound like a bot, you don't sound like AI. It's actually creating relationship and then doing what podcasts are meant to do, you know, create ripples, make connections, and, and further your sphere of influence. So that's what we're diving into. If you've ever been interested in the podcasting realm, or if you've pitched a podcast, if you want to start a podcast, This is the show for you.

I love it. And, um, you guys did an episode recently— of course I can say that I've listened to every episode of your show and not be lying because I produce it, uh, but you guys did an episode recently about not being perfect and how perfection is just killing podcasts and it's killing content.

Yeah.

And I think that is also— anyone listening to this one, once we're— we— yeah, words.

Once we wrap up— Imperfectly perfect.

Exactly. Once we wrap up, go and listen to that one too, because that one was such a powerful conversation about just we need to show up like people because everything is overrun by robots. Yeah.

And it's going to get worse.

Oh yeah. It's going to get worse every day.

And it's going to get better. I'm not against AI. I use it every day, but I think there's a place for it. And you still have to be the puppeteer pulling the strings. You still have to be the one You know, calling the shots. You can't just plug something in and say, write me a podcast pitch and not read it and not watch the show and not have any kind of, of personality in it. That's just, that's going to get you on a blacklist. I have a list of people that I'm like, no, no, no, no.

So, so let's not even just don't like, yes, read it, but also replace the brackets where it says insert name here.

Oh, come on, people. That's an easy one. Yeah, that's pretty bad.

They— have you seen it? I know you've seen it.

I haven't yet, but I know.

I've gotten insert, insert podcast name here, insert host name here, insert reason this is a fit here. Like, I've gotten brackets.

Yeah, that's just lazy.

Oh, it's so bad.

But podcasting really is a great medium, and it's a great vehicle to get your information out there, to storytell, um, for people people to be a fly on the wall to who you really are. You know, and in, in our space, in mortgage and real estate marketing, all of the above, you know, we— and recruiting, you know, we want people to know us as humans, not just as a one-dimensional email. So it really is a great way to get your message out there. So, so let's talk about that. Let's talk about first the people who don't have a podcast, because I actually think this is a really great place to start rather than just saying, I wanna start a podcast and not have any idea on the equipment you should be getting. Um, how, how to do a podcast, uh, how to produce a podcast. I feel like guesting is a really good place to start. So let's, let's start with that.

With guesting. Yeah. Guesting is kind of like an easy way in and a lot of people see it like that. And it's, is less of a lift upfront because you don't have to put in as much of an investment in with money or with time and You get to borrow somebody else's audience, which is really great. But at the same time, there is a lot of work that does have to go into it that people kind of overlook. You can't just go on a podcast today and get value out of it or get impact out of it. You have to do some homework. And I see it getting missed all the time.

And some of it, at this point, I think it's things that are obvious, but of course I've been in the space for 10 years, so it's obvious to me. But It's things that people don't really think about. And the simplest being, why are you going on the podcast? Ooh. What is, what is your goal and what do you want people listening to do once they hear you? And that is something that a lot of people don't have. They get on a podcast and then they get to the end and realize they don't have a call to action.

Smart. Yeah. Okay. So that's, I, I was, I was thinking you were gonna go equipment. And say, if you're going to be a podcast guest, why are you doing it from your phone? Or it does— you don't have to invest a ton in equipment, but that's another avenue. But I'm really glad that you said the why behind it because that really is the driver for everything.

You have to start with your why and you have to have something that you want people to do. And if you go on a podcast and people connect with you and you do well and you're telling stories and you're engaging, And you get to the end, people want to know more. They want to connect further. And if you don't have something to tell them to do, they're not going to do anything.

That's such a great takeaway. All right, write that down, people. Start with your why, get your call to actions, get them in a row, have them on a sticky note right in front of you because it's probably going to be your why for a lot of different things, not just for a podcast. Okay, so that's number one. All right, what's some other things that maybe people miss or overlook?

Well, I think with that call to action, don't be asking for anything. That's another thing that people miss is they go on a podcast thinking like, I want to get sales or I want to get this. And no, you go on a podcast because you want to share something. You want to offer value. You want to offer something to a listener. So when you're thinking about that call to action, have it be something that is giving. To the audience, not taking. So like, I can go on a podcast to promote my book, but that doesn't mean my call to action is buy my book.

I have a free downloadable version of the writing exercises in it that you can just go get for free. You don't have to give me anything but your email address. Have some kind of PDF downloadable guide that's helpful about what you're talking about. Um, offer access to a free newsletter. Offer a free phone call, whatever it is, just be offering something instead of asking for something because it takes so many touchpoints to get someone to actually make a buying decision. So if you go in right off the gate with like, okay, now go buy this, you've only had one touchpoint and it's not even a direct touchpoint. It's indirect. It's them listening to you talk to somebody else.

So they're not going to do it.

Yeah.

But if you give them a way to create more touchpoints, you get them into your mailing list, you connect with them on social, all of these different things, that's going to open the door for more and more touchpoints and that's going to lead them closer and closer to a purchase decision.

So in other words, you want some lead magnets in there.

You want some lead magnets.

Law of reciprocity, which I love that just at my core in sales sometimes We forget, and all sales are different, you know, but I'm talking to my mortgage loan officer friends and realtors out there. You know, we're in the service business. So, so serve, serve, give, give stuff away. Just give it away.

Always lead with value.

Yeah.

And I mean, jumping back to what we were talking about at the beginning is what people get wrong when they're trying to get on a podcast is they're leading with information about themselves and they're not leading with value. I don't care who you are if you want to be on my show. I care what you're going to bring to my listeners. So if you're pitching just, here's my resume, here's my bio, here's everything great about me, I don't care. I want to know what you're going to bring to my audience. I want to know what value you're going to offer. I want to know what they're going to get out of it because without your audience, you don't have a show.

That is such a simple, huge takeaway for people. And honestly, of all of the pitches that I've gotten, I can say maybe one Maybe one scratched the surface and sort of did that. Every other pitch did exactly what you say not to do.

I see it every day. It's just, hey, this person has done this and this and this. They should be a guest on your show. Let me know. It's like, okay, well, I'm not going to even bother emailing you back because I have too much to do. I'm not going to respond to an email that did not take the time to learn about my show and what I'm looking for.

Which actually also goes hand in hand with prospecting because it's the same kind of outreach. You know, you're— we're constantly talking about ourselves when if we just, um, shine a little bit of light on somebody else and, and the great things that they're doing and give them praise, that goes a lot further than here's what I do, here's what I bring to the table, here's all about me. So, well, that's a full circle moment right there.

Love a full circle moment.

Me too. Me too. Okay. So what other things? Are there some other things that maybe people are missing? Some big ones that they wouldn't necessarily think about when pitching?

Well, I mean, you touched on this before. You're surprised I didn't say it, but yes, please buy a microphone.

Yeah.

Buy a microphone. If you show up without a microphone, I find it disrespectful to the show. Don't use your computer audio. Don't use your cell phone. I, I've seen people show up to a podcast interview from the waiting room of a Jiffy Lube.

Memorable? Maybe not in the best way.

Easy to understand? Absolutely not.

No, don't, don't do that. Don't do that.

Like, simple podcast guest etiquette: have a microphone, have a quiet place to record, wear headphones. Like, the simple things that people Just aren't doing before they go on a show. And then when the episode comes out, they're not doing anything then. A lot of podcast guesting, that's why people are like, it's easy, you just have to go and show up. There's so much more that goes into it because you can't just rely on the audience of the host. If your episode comes out, are you sharing it? Are you turning it into a blog and adding it to your website? Are you emailing it out to your mailing list? Are you turning it into reels for social media? Are you turning it into infographics and like carousel posts and all these other social media assets that are going to help you reach more people? Or are you just, I showed up, I did the thing, I'm done now.

Check the box.

My job is done and now I'm never going to talk to that host again. Yeah, it, it's so transactional and Like podcasts are not about numbers. It's not a numbers game. It's not about having the highest number of downloads. It's about the doors that you can open. And one of those doors is connections. It's relationships. You want to have a relationship with the host.

You want to have a relationship with the listeners. You want to have a relationship with all of these different people that can be interacting with your conversation. And if you continue the relationship with the host that you guested with, They're going to share your episode more. They're going to invite you back. They're going to recommend you to their friends who also have podcasts. Everything about podcasting is compounding if you're actually doing it right and putting the effort in.

And that's the key, and putting the effort in. And, and some of that, sure, that's on the host to make sure that sometimes people don't know and, and to ask for those things. But, um, and I need to be better at all of this, but, you know, to, to ask people, hey, please make sure you share, please leave a 5-star of you, please, we have a couple of reels that come out, make sure that you collab with us or share. I love the idea of the blog post because obviously SEO, AEO, all the EOs that are out there to help actually connect people to see your stuff and see your content. But again, another full circle moment, which I love that you touched on this because I feel like our world right now, we are so driven by how many views, How many downloads? What's the number? If you have 1,000 downloads but you didn't have any actual connections that maybe led to sales, then who cares? If you have 20 views, downloads, wherever you're posting this, and you actually get some comments or you get some connections and sales, that's a much bigger win than the 1,000, 1,500.

I love this conversation. I have this conversation a lot. The mainstream podcasts are the famous ones, the Joe Rogans. And they, they already, they're born on third base because those aren't like a podcast that was started by someone who's just like, mm, I wanna have a podcast that was started by a celebrity. They already have a built-in audience. They have name recognition. They have all the things. But those are the ones that we see.

So we start to judge success based on their metrics.

Mm-hmm.

So we start to think of a podcast as like, this is our Eras Tour and we are speaking to a stadium. The average number of downloads in the first 7 days of a podcast for the— for 50% of podcasts is 27.

Wow.

So the median podcast is getting 27 downloads. on an episode the first 7 days it releases. If those 27 people are in the stands in a stadium and you're talking to them, that feels like crickets. Like that is an empty stadium.

Yeah.

But you're not on, you're not on a stadium tour. You have to just reframe the way we're looking at it. And what if those 27 people were in your living room? Suddenly that is standing room only. There is a line to get into the bathroom. People are tripping over each other and you have already run out of appetizers. It is a completely different conversation. And what if those 27 people are your ideal client, are your ideal partner, are your ideal referral?

Yeah.

You're having an intimate conversation with those 27 people. You're not screaming into the stands in a stadium.

Yeah, that's such a good takeaway. That's such a good takeaway. We think that with not just podcasting too, with posting on social, if you're going to do a video or any kind of content that we're creating, we judge it by that. But you're right. What's your barometer for success? Change your perspective. I really like that.

It's all about perspective. And I think We get so stuck on these vanity metrics that we forget the goals. We forget why we're doing it. We forget what is actually going to impact our business. And I actually, this is perfect time because I was just right before we got on this, I was finishing up a presentation that I'm giving at a conference next week. And it's all about the 5 doors that a podcast can open for your business. And none of them have anything to do with download numbers. It's the—

I don't know what they are. Tell me. Is it, is it a big secret? I want to know. Give me, give me at least 2 doors.

Oh no, I, I will, I'll give you all 5. Are you kidding me?

Give me all 5.

Yeah. Come on. You are Rachel. You get all 5. I love it. I'm trying to guess what they would be. Oh, okay. Well, what do you think they would be? It's ways, ways that a podcast is going to impact your brand.

Well, definitely in referrals.

Okay.

Maybe.

No, I am literally pulling it up just so that I get them right.

Yeah, I would think relationships, referrals, you know, for someone. And not maybe not referral framed in that way, but like, you know, a recommendation like, hey, check out this podcast, or hey, you should, you should know Rachel, or you should check out HMA Mortgage, or A connection in some sort.

Relationships is the second one on my list.

Second one.

Okay.

What's number 5?

They're in no particular order.

Oh, okay.

Okay. But you got one of 5 is relationships. And relationships, like you said, those are referral partners. Those are just growing your network. The amount of connections that I have made just from being on a podcast, whether that's connections from The, like with the host connections from people that listen to their show that reached out to me and listen to my show and reach out to me. Relationships are what we're going for and we're in this AI era and AI can create content for you. It cannot create connections. It cannot create conversations.

Yeah.

It cannot create anything except for just the content itself. So you need to be the one that's making those connections and building those relationships. So relationships is definitely. an important one on the list. The number one is authority.

Hmm. Yeah.

Authority is, is so important. And the way that I look at this one is that the way that people are searching for things is different now because of AI. Like AI is having so many impacts that we haven't even really thought about necessarily. But one of them is the way we search because AI does not search the way a human does. Like a human is going to say, how can I grow my business? AI is going to say, who is the most qualified resource to speak on this?

Oh, interesting.

And they're going to connect you to a person who can answer the question. So you need to be answering the questions. And the way that, like, it's basically like AI is building a court case. For who is the number one source for these answers. And in order to build a court case, you need evidence. Every podcast transcript is evidence. Every blog post is evidence. Every, like, everything that you're putting online is evidence.

And that evidence is being used to support whether or not you are going to be the source that AI pulls when someone asks the question.

I really love how you framed that because one thing that I'm constantly saying is, you know, this is your soapbox to establish thought leadership. But the way that you framed that in terms of creating the court case, that creates such a different visual and also kind of change— not changes the why, but changes the way that you're going to go about putting the deliverables out there. You know, to get to that end goal. Yeah, that's, that's pretty cool. And it's so true. And we're seeing, and we're really just scratching the surface here. So I actually love doing one thing and then, you know, killing 5 birds with one stone, you know, doing a podcast, but then having reels, having deliverables, having an email that can go out about it, having a blog post. I mean, it does make things easier, but We've got to do them.

You got to do them. You have to create the evidence.

Yeah. Create the evidence.

That's awesome. Evidence.

All right.

So that, that's the authority piece. There's the conversion piece. And this is the one that everyone thinks of when they think of like what a podcast will do for your business. But the conversions is not even what we really think of as conversions. And you can, you can convert a listener, you can convert a guest. Like that part is the obvious part, but the not obvious part is the touchpoints that it takes to convert somebody into a customer. Like I have degrees, a degree in advertising. I have a degree in psychology.

And what I was taught was that there is the magic number of 7.

Mm-hmm.

So it is 7 touchpoints to get somebody to make a purchase decision.

Yeah.

That number has changed.

Yeah.

Since, since I graduated college. And now it's a completely different number. It's 6 to 8, which sounds like the same number, except that is not to make a purchase decision. That is to book the meeting. It takes 6 to 8 touchpoints, direct touchpoints, to even consider a sales conversation.

And I'd be curious to know what the average number of outreaches are that people are making. I would venture to say it's probably 4. And we're stopping. Yeah, we're stopping before it actually turns into something. Like, you're so close, just keep going. They just need, they need to hear it 5 different, 6 different times, 6 different ways. And, and to just stay in there, um, stay top of mind, I guess you could say.

I just had a conversation on my podcast with a woman who is like, uh, the authority on following up. Which is not something that I excel at at all.

I think that's the hardest part about sales.

It is. But she said that the average person quits after 2.

After 2?

Yeah. So after those 2 touchpoints, and you need 6 to 8. If you do even just 3, you're going to be the last person standing. But—

That's pretty funny, isn't it?

Right?

3. 3.

Like she said, like you better not even consider stopping until you hit at least 5. But the 6 to 8 is the number of direct touchpoints before they'll book the sales meeting. The actual number of touchpoints in a buyer's journey is over 200.

Wow.

But those are direct and indirect. So an indirect touchpoint means maybe they saw a video on social media. Maybe they heard you on a podcast. Maybe they read a blog that you posted. Maybe they saw someone else posting about you. All of those things can come from a podcast.

Yeah, that's great because it's giving you more at-bats is what you're saying.

Exactly. And the more that you use a podcast, the more that you repurpose it, the more that you're sharing it, the more of those touch points that you're creating.

Yeah, that's great. Oh, what else? What else is in store? Okay, so that's 3. We got 2 more. So cute.

That was 3. Okay, longevity.

Longevity.

Longevity.

Yep.

Social media is an instantaneous platform. The lifespan of social media posts with Twitter or X, a tweet dies within like 15 to 20 minutes. TikTok, they get their—

Sometimes that's a good thing. Sometimes they need to die quick.

I don't disagree. I do not disagree. If you post something on TikTok, You're going to get the most attention you are going to get on it is within the first 2 to 5 minutes that it's posted.

Oh man.

Facebook, 5 to 6 hours. Instagram, 24 to 48 hours. So like at most on social media, you're getting 2 days of runway. Yeah. But a podcast, you get years because AI and Google and all of it, they're going to continue indexing your transcripts. They're going to continue indexing your show notes. Indexing all of it and continue showing it for years and continue using it as evidence that you are the authority.

Yeah, I'm back to that evidence. That's pretty cool. Yeah, I guess that makes sense too, because— and, and also it's, it's less creepy, you know. If you think about this, if you're, if you're looking somebody up and, you know, new friend connection, whatever, and you go back and you start scrolling back in the vault, it's really weird if you're back 6 months or even 3 months and you start liking and commenting, people are like, wow, they had to really dig deep. They are stalking me right now. But it's not—

Oh, that's like the worst nightmare. It's like if I'm scrolling back on some, I'm like, you're like, do not double tap, do not double tap, do not double tap. Oh, it's terrifying.

But it's— that's not the case for a podcast. Many times for podcasts that I, that I get into, I'm like, oh, I wanna, I wanna see what I missed. Like, and a lot of times too, I'll go back to somebody's first episodes to see how they've transformed and how they've changed and how they've kind of grown into their craft. So that's a great point. Okay. Last one, lay it on me. I can't even guess. I'm trying to guess, but this is great.

This one sounds a little bit like what we're saying it's not, like the download numbers. This one is reach.

Reach. Okay.

So it's not about how many people you reach. It's about reaching the right people.

Yeah.

And putting out content that is going to attract the people that you're trying to reach. And what I love about podcasts is that they are so discoverability-based. So you're— you don't have to put a ton of like marketing dollars behind promoting a podcast because it's podcast, um, search optimization.

Yeah.

So if you're putting the right keywords in your show name in your description, in your episode titles, in your show notes, if you're saying the right words in the transcripts, that's how people are going to discover your show. And that's how you're going to reach people that are looking for what you're talking about. And I have my favorite example of this ever, which is just like the importance of choosing a name that is very clear and who you're trying to talk to.

Yeah. And that AI can help with that.

It can.

AI can help with—

I don't know who helped with this one, but they did not do it well. Somebody— I had a client, no longer a client. They came to me because they wanted me to help them launch a podcast, and they already had the name. It was The Physician's Perspective.

That's very long and very easily misspelled.

What do you think that show is about?

The physician's perspective. I would think about people coming to a doctor with different questions and this physician giving their feedback and, you know, their point of view.

Not the bank. It was about real estate.

Oh, okay. Why the physician then? No longer. I don't know if it's a podcast still, but yeah.

It's definitely not with that name because even before I stopped working with them, I did change the name. Um, they wanted to speak to physicians about why investing in real estate is a great strategy for doctors, and then also suggested that they put the host in scrubs on the COVID art, which I'm— that just sounds illegal.

That just sounds like that's a doctor then.

Yeah, exactly.

That's a great point because the name is so important. My very first podcast was— it was Phone a Friend Friday, and this was back 5 years ago. And, um, I was, I was just starting in recruiting and like, I just, I wanted that, um, that thought leadership, that authority, you know. I didn't just want to be a recruiter and I wanted people to know that I was a human being and that I had value. So that was the whole idea behind it. But Phone a Friend Friday didn't say anything. It just had cute alliteration and I would just, okay, what friends? What were we talking about? Yes, it was mortgage-based, but it didn't say anything about what it was. So then switched to Lending Leadership, which I actually really like the name of this podcast.

Yeah. And lending is right in it and leadership. Those are 2 really important keywords, but it just shows why it's important to choose the keywords that you want to get discovered for. Making it very obvious to the people you're trying to talk to what your show's about so that they know if they want to find you.

So that people want to pitch you, know at least the name, and then can pitch you all wrong from the beginning. Um, that was great perspective on, on one half of the equation. I know we're, we're kind of getting close to time, but this is just a topic we both could talk about forever. I wanted to— I want to hit on the pitch part of it because I feel like there is a very— and you can use everything that we've just talked about to create a pitch, but what would be the first thing that you would recommend to somebody who has never podcasted? Okay, we kind of hit on those, but when they're making their outreach to a show.

Why would the host want to have you on their show?

Okay. Going back to that. That's great.

And the answer, unless you are like Oprah, the answer is probably not because of who you are. Like, if you don't have a name that is recognizable, if you don't have a name people are searching for, then your name alone is not good enough. And you're probably like, the thing that you're talking about or your company that you're representing, whatever it is, is probably obscure enough that people really aren't searching for it. And as a podcast host, the only people that we have any responsibility to is our listeners. We don't have a responsibility to people who want to be a guest. We don't have a responsibility to really anyone except for our listeners.

Yeah.

And so what I need to know isn't who you are and what great things you have done and why you think that you deserve to be on a platform. I need to know what you're going to bring for my audience. So instead of pitching your bio, instead of pitching your, your acumen, your accomplishments, pitch your value. Say, I know on your show you are looking to offer this type of value. Here's how I can bring it. Here's what I have to offer. And just from that alone, you're going to stand out from all the other pitches because they don't do that.

No, they really don't. They really don't. It's generic. It's canned. Um, and that, that doesn't mean that you make 15 pitches to podcasts a day. Maybe you just make 1 or 2 so you can really do some homework on that show. Listen to the show.

Actually know the show. And if you don't know the show, don't pretend you do, because we can see right through that. And I've been working on this new project where I'm trying to change the way that like people are pitched, change the way that podcast guest booking is done. And one of the things that I had to figure out was like, when I pitched to these shows that I have not listened to, what do I say? Because it's so common to say like, oh, I've been listening to your show since episode 2.

Yeah. No, you haven't.

And no, I haven't. And I'm not going to lie to you. So all I've been saying is like, I was looking for shows that talk about this and I found yours. And I really think based on what I've seen from your show, that your audience is going to find value from a conversation with this person. And here's why.

Yeah, that's, well, that's the trust factor too. That's the authenticity. You know, I am, I feel like this is just the theme of the year, showing up as an authentic person and creating that trust.

Especially because we know our shows.

Yeah.

So if you pretend that you know it, we're gonna know that you're wrong. Like, I had somebody reach out saying, I loved your episode with Philip Taylor and your conversation about the future of the podcast industry. It's like, okay, that's awesome. Philip Taylor talked about taxes. Philip Taylor was on my show as a CPA. He's my CPA. And I brought him on to talk about what, like, podcasters need to know about taxes.

Interesting.

I can tell from that first sentence that you are lying to me and you've never listened to my show before.

Yeah, that you put it into chat, said, look through this episode, tell me what it's about, write me a pitch. Yeah. Yeah.

You're not going to fool the person making the show. We know the show.

You're like, you got this close, but you just—

You nailed it. He was a guest on the show.

Yes.

That's, that's all you got right. Yeah.

1 out of 10. Um, it's really not, it's not hard. And, and I think even if you're doing that and if you have that approach and have less, um, less outreach, you're actually going to be better in the long run because you're gonna, you're gonna get some real feedback and have some actual people that respond to you versus, like I said in the beginning, throwing a bunch of stuff against the wall to see what sticks. I think the value will be much greater if you take a little bit of time.

Yeah.

So you mentioned, that's a cool perspective. So it's a book you showed me earlier, Book Thinkers.

Yeah, I partnered with Book Thinkers, um, a couple months ago.

It's a great idea.

They, they've been doing the podcast guest booking for a while and they just wanted to make it better. And he heard me ranting about the state of podcast guest booking at a conference and he's like, you can fix it and do it for us. So I've been working with them to just change the way that— like, everyone in the industry seems to be doing it the same way. And it's AI-generated pitches. It's, here's who the person is, here's the book that they wrote, and they probably have never been a host.

Yeah.

So I've been a host, I've been a guest, I've been a producer, I've been a strategist, I've been a consultant. I've been basically in every seat of a podcast table. And I'm writing the pitch that I would actually read. And I'm talking to other podcast hosts about what they want. And I've gotten on so many calls about, This project with other podcast hosts, and the response from every single one is basically, you're doing the Lord's work. Because everyone is so tired of it, of all of these just AI-generated canned nonsense pitches. So it is now my life's mission to just make it better and start helping other people pitch themselves better or pitching my clients better, whatever it is, just Actually think about the podcast because for every like one podcast that takes guests, there's 47 people that want to be on a podcast.

Yeah. It's not like we want unlimited great guests. Yes, we want great guests. I would love that. It would make my life a lot easier and, and, you know, it opens you up to some conversations or companies or ideas that you hadn't thought of. So yeah, send me your pitches, but please watch the show.

I, I will start sending you pitches if any of these Book Thinkers clients are a match, but I will—

Please do.

Uh, I will do it as someone who really knows the show.

I know, because you have been here from the start. Um, this has been great. Well, I think that's a, a really cool, um, and, and needed organization, Book Thinkers. Um, but if you're interested in any of this, please reach out to Sarah Losey, Branded Media. Check out her podcast, Branded. Um, she has a great book. It's It's called Open This Book, which I think is such a clever title. And this has been awesome.

I really appreciate this perspective, and hopefully, people took some notes. And hey, if you would like to be on Lending Leadership, please send me a very well-crafted pitch, and I just might read it. But until next time, thanks, Sarah. I appreciate it.

Thank you. See you soon.