Your gut and your brain talk more than you realise and it could shape your postpartum mental health.

Postpartum can be both beautiful and overwhelming. While many mums expect sleepless nights and endless nappies, few are prepared for how much their mental health can be affected. Research is now showing that what we eat plays a role in how we feel, and that’s where today’s conversation begins.

In this episode Dr Renee White speaks with Meghan Hockey, an Accredited Practising Dietitian and mum of two, who specialises in the link between nutrition and mental health. Meghan completed her PhD in Nutritional Psychiatry with Deakin University’s Food & Mood Centre and has published over 20 peer-reviewed papers in the field. Through her online clinic, she helps people manage anxiety, low mood, postpartum depression and gut health concerns with practical, evidence-based strategies.

You’ll hear about

• How the gut–brain connection influences postpartum depression
• What the science currently tells us about nutrition and mental health
• Key foods that may help support mood and recovery
• Simple, realistic ways to nourish yourself as a new mum
• Why small, sustainable changes are more effective than aiming for perfection

This episode is a reminder that nutrition isn’t about strict rules or diets, but one tool that can support your mental health alongside sleep, support and medical care.

Resources and Links:

📲 Connect with Renee on Instagram: @fillyourcup_

🌐 Learn more about Dr Renee White and explore Fill Your Cup Doula services

🍪 Treat yourself with our Chocolate + Goji lactation cookies

📲 Want to connect with Meghan?

Follow on Instagram: @meghockeydietitian

Or visit her website and learn more about her services and book a 1:1 telehealth consultation: www.meghanhockeydietitian.com

If you found this conversation helpful, share it with another mum who might need it. And don’t forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode.

Disclaimer: The information on this website presented by Fill Your Cup is not a substitute for independent professional advice.

Nothing contained in this site is intended to be used as medical advice and it is not intended to be used to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease, nor should it be used for therapeutic purposes or as a substitute for your own health professional's advice.

[00:00:27] Dr Renee White: I'm Dr. Renee White, and this is the [00:00:30] science of motherhood. Hello and welcome to episode 190 of The Science of Motherhood. I am your host, Dr. Renee White. Today's episode is proudly brought to you by Fill Your Cup, Australia's first doula [00:00:45] village where science backed birth and postpartum care that actually works.

[00:01:49] Dr Renee White: We are non-medical professionals who hold your hand through pregnancy and birth there throughout the [00:02:00] labor. We provide emotional support. We are essentially like your birth cheerleaders and in the postpartum we come to your house, we cook you meals, you get to choose from a beautiful, [00:02:15] nourishing, postpartum specific menu.

[00:02:58] Dr Renee White: You can check that all out at [00:03:00] i fill your cup.com. And we also have a range of free postpartum planning guides on our website as well. Just in that top banner when you, when you head over to there. If you've got [00:03:15] any questions about our doula services, please feel free to, um, check us out over at Instagram.

[00:03:52] Dr Renee White: You know, we always hear that our gut is the second brain and this gal. Knows what she's [00:04:00] talking about. She's completed her PhD in Nutritional psychiatry, uh, with Deacon University's Food and Mood Center and has published over 20 peer reviewed papers in the field. Now that is. That is quite a [00:04:15] feat. She's got her online clinic, which she now combines, um, the latest science in nutrition and the gut brain connection, and really kind of her whole passion is to help people better manage anxiety, [00:04:30] low mood, postpartum depression, and gut health concerns.

[00:04:57] Dr Renee White: And this is something that we [00:05:00] really focus on here at Fill Your Cup at our doula village, I have curated this particular menu that we support our mums through. And the whole premise behind it is that there is some serious [00:05:15] intention behind it. There's intention, as a biochemist, I have paired specific ingredients with one another to almost get like that kind of synergistic effect you want.

[00:05:54] Dr Renee White: The needle when it comes to postpartum depression. The statistics here in Australia [00:06:00] are alarming. It is, you know, just insane the amount of people that are diagnosed with postpartum depression and that's diagnosed like goodness knows how many people go [00:06:15] undiagnosed. I think at the moment the official thing is one in five, I would say.

[00:06:46] Dr Renee White: Hello and welcome to the podcast Megan Hockey. How are you?

[00:06:55] Dr Renee White: Oh, I have too, because this is an area that we have not really [00:07:00] dived quite deep in. We talk, I think we talk about it in the background a lot in our doula village around, you know.

[00:07:32] Dr Renee White: Of what your background is, who you are, and a little bit more about yourself.

[00:07:49] Meghan Hockey: So nutrition and mental health. And I completed my PhD in this area a few years ago now, and then after having my second little one, so I've got two little boys at home. I've got a 3-year-old and a [00:08:00] 1-year-old after having my, um, little one and just after my own postpartum journey, I became a lot more interested in this intersection in terms of the postpartum mental health side of things that we always know that nutrition over the last 10 years has been [00:08:15] this really rapidly emerging area of research that's looked at, um, nutritional psychiatry, particularly in adults A lot of the research is in, but I think more and more now, um, over the last couple of years, it's been a bit more interest in postpartum mental health, particularly with the high rate.

[00:08:49] Dr Renee White: Mm.

[00:09:04] Dr Renee White: Wow. I, I'm, I'm so fascinated by this concept because I think, you know, there's a lot of conjecture out there, and I see it in our industry.

[00:09:33] Dr Renee White: Yeah. Because we know that it's so important. So, as you kind of said, you know, your research is focusing on nutritional, um, psychiatry. I, I'm always fascinated [00:09:45] by the gut brain connection through all of this. Could you explain how this science specifically relates to postpartum depression and anxiety and I guess what makes the postpartum period [00:10:00] unique from a nutritional psychiatry perspective?

[00:10:19] Meghan Hockey: But it can also occur indirectly through other peripheral pathways. So things like our immune system, inflammatory markers, and so forth. And a lot of this is being driven by our gut [00:10:30] microbiome, which is the bacteria, the true tru, the bacteria really that reside within our gut and particularly large intestine.

[00:10:59] Meghan Hockey: [00:11:00] So what's interesting about postpartum depression is that studies have seen that those who have postpartum depression have a different. Gut microbiome composition to those without postpartum depression. And this is seen also in adults with and without clinical [00:11:15] depression. So it's not something new per se, but it's just more recently with emerging research that we are beginning to understand that, um, the patterns that we're seeing, I guess, in um, other types of depression are also prevalent in postpartum depression as well.

[00:11:28] Meghan Hockey: And I think perhaps the most [00:11:30] exciting area of this for me is that where while our microbiome changes naturally throughout the course of pregnancy due to number of factors like hormones and things like that, we are actually able to change our gut microbiome. Things like stress, physical activity, medications, they can all impact it, but [00:11:45] we act.

[00:12:06] Meghan Hockey: And it's through this, there's a number of pathways with postpartum depression alone. We're not exactly sure what causes it. It's really, really complex. And the same goes for why nutrition [00:12:15] may be linked to postpartum depression. We're not exactly sure, but it could be potentially through the gut microbiome and these types of pathways that we're be able to see a link as well.

[00:12:32] Meghan Hockey: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[00:12:42] Meghan Hockey: Mm-hmm.

[00:12:44] Meghan Hockey: Yeah.

[00:12:53] Meghan Hockey: Absolutely.

[00:13:12] Dr Renee White: And then there was people like myself who was [00:13:15] already an anxious person had no idea that like, you know, I was predestined for a high risk kind of postpartum anxiety. Are there are, are they the same kind of foods that you would recommend for people like [00:13:30] myself who were perhaps at a high risk or are we talking about two different, two different ballparks there.

[00:13:43] Dr Renee White: Yes.

[00:13:44] Dr Renee White: Yes.

[00:13:52] Meghan Hockey: In the studies that we've run and that we see out there, they're always used as an adjunct treatment as well. So it's always to be used alongside. And [00:14:00] I guess also because I think there's so much stress. And it's so difficult to eat. Wow. When we're pregnant, there's, there's all these factors.

[00:14:13] Meghan Hockey: Yeah. White foods, that's all I [00:14:15] could stomach. So I think it's important to say is, well that what we eat doesn't cause a mental illness.

[00:14:20] Meghan Hockey: It's just what we are seeing from the research. Is it. It may be one modifiable risk factor.

[00:14:25] Meghan Hockey: That we A, are able to control and perhaps change.

[00:14:29] Meghan Hockey: [00:14:30] Which I think is really empowering for people to know as well, because that there's so many things with mental illness or mental disorders that we're not able to change.

[00:14:40] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:48] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:14:55] Meghan Hockey: It's uh, there's no real magic bullet, silver bullet. Like you said, we'd probably already be doing it [00:15:00] all if there was that available. I guess it's what we see. It comes down to overall dietary patterns rather than one single food alone.

[00:15:07] Meghan Hockey: It's that totality of our diet.

[00:15:09] Meghan Hockey: And that. Seems to make the biggest difference overall.

[00:15:37] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:58] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:13] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:16:21] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:16:31] Dr Renee White: I wonder, is there, because you know, we hear a lot about prebiotics and probiotics.

[00:16:38] Dr Renee White: Obviously they can correct me if I'm wrong, adjust, you know, our microbiome, um

[00:16:45] Dr Renee White: In our gut. Has there been any research around that? Because. So the, the other thing I wanna preface by saying this, this is my molecular biology and biochemistry, you know, hat on everyone?

[00:16:58] Dr Renee White: Is that I feel like [00:17:00] where people go, oh, I just need to go get a probiotic. And, and what they don't understand is that you can step into a pharmacy, but like probiotic is kind of like the umbrella and there's like a million squillion, different [00:17:15] strains of,

[00:17:16] Dr Renee White: Probiotic and each strain is going to be unique for doing something very different. And one strain over here might be amazing for someone to, you know, let's say, you know, I don't know. [00:17:30] There's a strain out there that's really good for coughs and colds for kids in childcare. There was research around that.

[00:17:35] Dr Renee White: But that one strain's probably not gonna be good for, for example, Kiara Probiotics, which has got an amazing. You know, treatment prevention [00:17:45] against mastitis. So with all of that knowledge, is there anything out there that we know about in terms of pro or prebiotics and its connection with, you know mental health challenges, particularly in [00:18:00] the postpartum?

[00:18:12] Meghan Hockey: So like you said, it's not like. That [00:18:15] there's real, sorry, can I start that again? Yeah, go for it. I just went. Woo. So when it comes to probiotics, there's a couple of studies, randomised control trials that have looked at the effect on depressive symptoms. Um, both of these studies have looked at particular strains, [00:18:30] so they have come to the collision ones.

[00:18:51] Meghan Hockey: So what's the right dosage? Like you said, prebiotics. They're really interesting field, I think, because they're the types of fibres that the beneficial bacteria grow on.

[00:19:00] Meghan Hockey: So whether down the track we might look at having a probiotic and then having prebiotics to help keep bacteria growing and so that it flourishes a lot more.

[00:19:09] Meghan Hockey: So that. Because the probiotics, they can be quite transit, so you need to take them consistently to get the [00:19:15] benefits as well, so they can go into large intestine and then if you stop taking them, whether or not that that bacteria still lives in a large intestine, we're not exactly clear. So I think coming back to dr, they can be quite expensive probiotics as well.

[00:19:55] Dr Renee White: Yeah, that's a great point. I love the fact that you've touched on dosage cause I think [00:20:00] that's another unknown fact. I mean, we see it in, for example, with collagen supplements. You know, like depending on what effect you wanna have, you know, do you wanna just have, you know, harder nails and great hair, or do you wanna have [00:20:15] muscle building or, you know, collagen kind of repair and things like that.

[00:20:33] Meghan Hockey: Exactly. Yeah. And I often think your money may be just be to be spent investing in whole foods that are rich in these fibres, your prebiotic fibres, like your, your beans, lentils, even including, we don't have a whole lot of [00:20:45] evidence around fermented foods yet, but they're traditionally being consumed as part of traditional diet cultures for many, many years. So these are the foods like your sauerkraut, your king cheese, your other fermented foods, like a sourdough and so forth. I think your money is probably better spent [00:21:00] investing in these whole foods and getting the foundations right first before going down the line and considering a supplement like a probiotic.

[00:21:11] Meghan Hockey: Absolutely. As well. You also get the taste benefits. Yeah. [00:21:15]

[00:21:22] Meghan Hockey: Yeah.

[00:21:27] Dr Renee White: You've got, you know, over 20 peer [00:21:30] reviewed papers in your field, is there anything that you've kind of come across where you are like, this is such a surprising kind of discovery. I mean, we've talked about the fact that I, I feel like this [00:21:45] area, anything to do with microbiome, I feel like we're at the, you know, just the tip of the iceberg.

[00:22:09] Meghan Hockey: Sure. I guess when we are thinking about postpartum nutrition, a lot of the evidence based lies in [00:22:15] observational research. So this is the where we're seeing a link, so we can't actually say, but there's no clinical trials as yet in the postpartum depression space. So we're not actually able to say that by changing your diet, you're actually able to improve depressive symptoms or [00:22:30] actually be used as a treatment for postpartum depression in this area.

[00:22:51] Meghan Hockey: And I think a really key, important finding out of this is that these changes occur independent of weight loss. So a lot of people may think, oh, you're eating better, you're losing weight. [00:23:00] That's why you are seeing these benefits for your mental health. But it's actually not the case in that, um, as part of these studies, dietary improvement changes were seen.

[00:23:15] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:23:18] Dr Renee White: Yes.

[00:23:24] Meghan Hockey: But this is not what we're talking about here. A lot of their research is suggesting, um, promoting [00:23:30] diversity. So thinking about how you can add more foods to your plate to maximise the different types of plant fibres that you get to help nourish your gut microbiome, essentially. That's what we're thinking.

[00:23:57] Meghan Hockey: So your diet doesn't need to be perfect. Just start by making [00:24:00] small, simple changes, building up from there, and then it makes it a lot more approachable for people as well, rather than having that all or nothing mindset. I think that's really powerful to know too, in that even small, gradual changes, maybe linked to an improvement in symptoms rather than, yeah, have [00:24:15] this all or nothing.

[00:24:47] Dr Renee White: This is so TMI just strip because I had to wear, I was working at a law firm, so I had like this suit strip off my like. I didn't even go to the bedroom. I had a sleeping bag permanently on the couch and I would crawl into it and I would [00:25:00] sleep for like two hours and I would wake up and, you know, typically my husband would've made dinner by then.

[00:25:34] Meghan Hockey: Yeah, I think make it easier on yourself. I think it comes down to that managing expectations as well of what we're going to be able to achieve here. So like I said as well, nutrition's not gonna be a [00:25:45] cure all, for mental illnesses as well. It's something that might be useful, just a tool, um, in your mental health toolkit essentially.

[00:26:18] Meghan Hockey: The healthier choice, the easier choice essentially. So even if that's something like cooking once and eating twice, preparing a bigger batch of meals, freezing something for leftovers as well. Relying on [00:26:30] frozen vegetables and things like that. So stock in the pantry. We have really good research to show that frozen vegetables and things like that. They're not nutritionally inferior. They are really high in quality as well. So grabbing out a packet of steamed veggies that you can throw in the microwave and add it to whatever you're eating [00:26:45] for dinner tonight. So something that's really small and manageable as well.

[00:26:51] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:27:09] Meghan Hockey: And even if you have meals in the fridge, put them in the freezer. So trying to walk with plan as [00:27:15] hard as it can be to have something there, because I think when your environment is structured around you that you have. Something ready on hand as well. It makes it a lot easier.

[00:27:25] Meghan Hockey: So even like having a, um, a jar nuts next to your kettle and the next [00:27:30] time that you're making a cup of tea, it just prompts you to think, oh, I might grab a handful.

[00:27:33] Meghan Hockey: Of nuts there as well.

[00:27:35] Meghan Hockey: so just those really, the environmental cues and things like that as well, it can just prompt. And helped us because in the messiness of it, we we're not thinking of ourselves a lot of the [00:27:45] time.

[00:27:45] Meghan Hockey: Sometimes we just need those reminders. I think.

[00:27:48] Meghan Hockey: That Hey, this. Yeah.

[00:28:03] Meghan Hockey: Mm-hmm.

[00:28:11] Dr Renee White: Well, you know, seven years. When was she eating solids? I don't know. But [00:28:15] I've now got to the point where I'm like, I'm getting two plates out and I'm making a picnic plate for myself as well. Like, because otherwise just I would make this picnic plate. I would take it out to her and she'd be like, I don't know, doing her drawing or coloring or whatever.

[00:28:36] Meghan Hockey: Yes. Yeah.

[00:28:44] Meghan Hockey: oh [00:28:45] gosh. I am guilty of surviving off the toast crust as well, but you know what, I find what really helps me setting me up for the week is meal planning to set in some time aside, not strict, but just writing down like a list of foods that I can prepare and buy the [00:29:00] groceries for so that even if I wanted to make a quick dinner, I have everything there right on hand.

[00:29:04] Meghan Hockey: Because if there's nothing to cook within the house, I'm obviously defaulting to whatever is there.

[00:29:13] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:29:20] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:29:24] Meghan Hockey: Another thing I keep a, um, a list of quick, healthy, or like well [00:29:30] balanced meals, I guess in my phone that I can default to cause sometimes I can't be bothered thinking about what to cook. I've got my

[00:29:37] Meghan Hockey: Yep. Absolutely. So having recipes that you can make without that doesn't require a lot of thinking. So go into autopilot [00:29:45] mode.

[00:29:45] Meghan Hockey: So for us, that might be like a, a baked pumpkin dahl that is literally just pop it in the oven. It's packed full of lentils, probiotic fibre.

[00:29:54] Meghan Hockey: You've got your folate, yeah. And it's so easy as well. Or we often do just like a [00:30:00] one pot curry, things like that. You pop your noodles in, your cut up veggies and it cooks in 10 minutes.

[00:30:18] Dr Renee White: Oh my gosh.

[00:30:20] Dr Renee White: Ain't nobody got time for that.

[00:30:24] Dr Renee White: I'm gonna have to send you some of our dahl I want you to try and do

[00:30:28] Dr Renee White: that's our dahl in the background there for all those [00:30:30] playing at home.

[00:30:31] Dr Renee White: Um, I would love to, I would love to know if you could road test that with your, with your pumpkin, your baked pumpkin dahl that sounds interesting.

[00:30:40] Dr Renee White: Yeah. Uh, I look, I'm the same. I don't meal prep, like I [00:30:45] see those crazy reels where people like. Here's what I got done in two hours on Sunday. I'm like, for the love of God, that took you much longer than two hours. Yeah, because I think it's a mental load of like, you had to look at the recipe, you had to get [00:31:00] ingredients, you had to do the shop.

[00:31:19] Meghan Hockey: Mm-hmm.

[00:31:40] Meghan Hockey: And you don't always need to have it with pasta as well, there's so many different ways you can have it with a baked potato, you can pop it in [00:31:45] a wrap with and make like a burrito and things like that. So

[00:31:51] Meghan Hockey: yeah, that's the jackpot there.

[00:32:02] Meghan Hockey: Mm-hmm.

[00:32:07] Meghan Hockey: Yep.

[00:32:16] Meghan Hockey: It's making me hungry now. Just thinking whens lunch.

[00:32:40] Dr Renee White: Did you do this study before you became a mum at all?

[00:32:52] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:32:58] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:33:02] Dr Renee White: Gotcha.

[00:33:15] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:33:40] Meghan Hockey: We've seen that it is any, in fact, in the, um, clinical practice guidelines now in [00:33:45] Australia. Diet alongside other lifestyle factors like physical activity, sleep, and stress management. They're actually recommended as first line foundational, um, approaches for management of mood disorders. So some really good evidence in that [00:34:00] space.

[00:34:01] Meghan Hockey: We know that postpartum depression is quite unique, so whether or not the same applies for that specific population still remains a little bit unclear, but I think still what we're recommending, it's good for postpartum physical recovery, [00:34:15] postpartum health overall. So what we know is good for mental health seems to be good for physical health too.

[00:34:31] Dr Renee White: Yeah, absolutely. Nothing, nothing wrong with it there.

[00:34:35] Dr Renee White: Before we dive into our rapid fire, was there anything else that you wanted to add?

[00:34:53] Meghan Hockey: Yeah. I think I see some weird and wacky supplements that pop up a lot of the time as well, that people will tend [00:35:00] to think that there's some good science around.

[00:35:19] Meghan Hockey: We know that, um, omega threes, particularly for those who are on blood thinners and things like that, they're not, uh, they're not advisable. So working with a health practitioner is really important [00:35:30] before commencing any supplements. Often as well, like to take a food first approach. So if you are not already having fish, maybe think about that's for you, increasing your fish intake through low mercury options if you're breastfeeding, for example, before commencing a [00:35:45] supplement.

[00:35:55] Dr Renee White: Absolutely. I have two questions on that.

[00:35:57] Dr Renee White: First one is what are, yeah. What are [00:36:00] some low mercury fish examples?

[00:36:11] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:36:16] Dr Renee White: Are sardines in that, in that category in there as well? Yeah, I totally got into those.

[00:36:30] Dr Renee White: yeah.

[00:36:33] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:36:39] Dr Renee White: That's exactly how I eat them.

[00:36:43] Dr Renee White: I, I was at a, like, I was at this [00:36:45] cute cafe here in Tassie the other month with a friend and I, I had already had eggs in the morning and we were kind of like, it wasn't lunch, it wasn't brunch or I just didn't know what I felt like.

[00:37:13] Meghan Hockey: Yes.

[00:37:15] Meghan Hockey: mm-hmm.

[00:37:25] Meghan Hockey: mm-hmm.

[00:37:36] Meghan Hockey: yeah.

[00:37:38] Meghan Hockey: and whatever works for you. Yeah, I think as well, I think you need to find something that's within, and if you don't like fish as well, there's [00:37:45] always omega 3, rich nuts and seed options like your walnuts, your chia seed, your blackberry and things like that.

[00:37:50] Meghan Hockey: they're not as absorbable, I guess, as your fish and your seafood options, but again, it's just finding what works for you as well, because fish isn't everyone's cup of tea, so

[00:37:59] Meghan Hockey: [00:38:00] Yep.

[00:38:05] Meghan Hockey: Mm-hmm.

[00:38:14] Meghan Hockey: Yeah. [00:38:15] Um, there definitely there is differences in the quality. So finding, the reputable manufacturer is always key as well and particularly we're seeing from the evidence that those that are higher in EPA to particularly type Omega-3. So EPA predominant formula [00:38:30] tends to be rather than DHA tends to be better for mental health, which is when we're talking about pregnancy, we often talk about DHA.

[00:38:37] Meghan Hockey: core baby's brain development.

[00:38:39] Meghan Hockey: But in terms of the postpartum and mental health and depression side of things, the EPA predominant [00:38:45] formula seems to be what the research is showing that to be a little bit more effective as well. But again, I think these can all be worked through with your health practitioner as well, and I always recommend that people would report back and advice because everyone's needs are quite specific.

[00:39:05] Dr Renee White: Amazing. Anything else to add? We, we will talk about where we can find you and also your clinic at the end, but before the rapid fire, anything else that you wanted to [00:39:15] add along the way?

[00:39:17] Meghan Hockey: I think just being kind to yourself as well. I think there's so many mental health challenges in the postpartum period. Anything that's going to add extra stress, I think is, is not something that I'd wanna advocate for. [00:39:30] So finding things that are really workable within where you are in your life stage as well, because nutrition, at the end of the day, it should be enjoyable.

[00:39:58] Meghan Hockey: The research doesn't really align with that. It's not [00:40:00] sustainable in the long term as well. So finding, um, and implementing small strategies that you can consistently build up over time. I think is where one of my key takeaways as well and just remembering is again, that mental health, it's so multifaceted.[00:40:15]

[00:40:21] Dr Renee White: Five times a day.

[00:40:34] Meghan Hockey: Getting enough sleep, um, all these things can help add up and may play a role in our long-term mental health as well.

[00:40:52] Meghan Hockey: Ooh, my top tip for mum. That is a tricky one. I,

[00:41:00] Meghan Hockey: Oh gosh. In terms of nutrition or sorry, my

[00:41:05] Meghan Hockey: Um, anything. Anything, anything. Anything, anything. Accept help. I think when it comes to that, I'm probably guilty of that a lot of the time.

[00:41:14] Meghan Hockey: Whether [00:41:15] that be I from a nutrition front in terms of accepting meals or things like that, because people naturally want to help you and it makes them feel good as well, as well as receiving the help.

[00:41:44] Dr Renee White: Love [00:41:45] that love. Do you have like a go-to resource, whether it be a book or a workshop or something like that for, you know, birthing mums? Uh uh, like we've even had guests who've suggested a [00:42:00] poem, like it can be anything. Was there anything that kind of helped you along the way or something that you. I don't know, you might gift a friend.

[00:42:12] Meghan Hockey: if they're pregnant a resource. I [00:42:15] really love podcasts. Not specifically anyone, but I just find helping, hearing others women's experiences are really, really helpful, particularly because it can just change so quickly, the life stage that you are.

[00:42:46] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:42:48] Dr Renee White: I, I think there's something really, really, and I don't, I cannot think of another word for it, but special about having another person's voice in your ear.

[00:43:00] Dr Renee White: Like I always suggest to clients, you know, have a chat to people who are in your inner circle and let them know that a voice message sometimes is a thousand times better than a text.

[00:43:13] Dr Renee White: You know, an SMS. [00:43:15] Because there's something about having, it's that it feels like it's, it's the tone, it's the intonation. Maybe you hear their laugh or something like that. I think it hits differently, and I think podcasts do that as well.

[00:43:25] Dr Renee White: When you get people in your ear and you're just like, oh yeah.

[00:43:30] Meghan Hockey: Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. Yep. Mm-hmm.

[00:43:48] Meghan Hockey: My bedside table. I have my Kindle. Oh, it's always a non-negotiable.

[00:43:53] Meghan Hockey: like a good book on the go. Probably a random toddler toy that has made its way up there. I think it's a dinosaur at the [00:44:00] moment.

[00:44:00] Meghan Hockey: Currently sitting there and my late grandmother's watch as well, so my jewelry and my watch. I like to keep close by as well. Yeah,

[00:44:11] Meghan Hockey: Yeah.

[00:44:18] Meghan Hockey: Yeah,

[00:44:20] Meghan Hockey: I am one of those people that I'll get through the first chapter and realize I've read this book before, so I'm not good on a name.

[00:44:31] Dr Renee White: Okay. Yeah.

[00:44:46] Dr Renee White: I'm, I'm Googling, I'm Googling everyone.

[00:44:49] Dr Renee White: If my keyboard actually wants to work,

[00:44:54] Dr Renee White: Yes.

[00:45:01] Dr Renee White: has he only got one book? He only got one, one book? Maybe he does. He's fascinating. I, yeah,

[00:45:14] Dr Renee White: He's [00:45:15] got like just this beautiful, calming voice, like

[00:45:18] Dr Renee White: I think if I listened to his podcast at night, like, love him, but I think I would, he would send me to sleep cause it's just this calm, just his calm voice. Yeah. Just nice. Thanks [00:45:30] Billy.

[00:45:40] Meghan Hockey: Mm-hmm.

[00:45:55] Dr Renee White: Like, you know, those little,

[00:45:59] Dr Renee White: The [00:46:00] backlight. Mm-hmm. And also I'm like. I don't know about you, but I'm on size five at the moment. My eyes, I can, I'm 40 now, so I'm like, can feel they're deteriorating a little bit so I can, you know, I can make the text bigger.

[00:46:14] Dr Renee White: Yeah. [00:46:15] And if I finish, if I finish book one of something at like 10 o'clock at night. You bet your bottom dollar. I'm buying book two straight away. Yeah. I mean, Kmart, I think we have 1 24 7 Kmart here in Hobart, and I'm [00:46:30] not getting outta my bed for that, so

[00:46:33] Dr Renee White: Yeah, Kindle all the way.

[00:46:44] Meghan Hockey: Yeah, sure. [00:46:45] You can find me on Instagram at meg hockey, dietician, and then I also have a web site, Megan hockey do com, which I'm sure you'll be able to copy in the show notes.

[00:47:07] Meghan Hockey: But more than happy, if you have any further questions, please reach out. I love connecting with other people. It's a really, it's a relatively new area [00:47:15] of research, like I said, so for anyone else interested in knowing about it, would love to get in touch.

[00:47:23] Dr Renee White: I love delving into this. I love, it's almost like where. It's kind of like where East meets West I [00:47:30] find, in terms of medicine. Um.

[00:47:32] Dr Renee White: And you know, for a long time, because I was a science nerd, I thought very much black and white. I sometimes find that that happens when we do a PhD, because we go so niche.[00:47:45]

[00:47:45] Dr Renee White: Since becoming a doula, I'm totally understanding that it's not the case at all. Yeah. And that we do need to bring in this kind of, you know, holistic side mm-hmm of medicine, which obviously food was our [00:48:00] first medicine. Right?

[00:48:01] Dr Renee White: So we need to start leaning a bit more on that. But thank you so much for your time.

[00:48:13] Dr Renee White: If you loved this [00:48:15] episode, please hit the subscribe button and leave a review. If you know someone out there who would also love to listen to this episode, please hit the share button so they can benefit from it as well.

[00:48:57] Dr Renee White: Until next time. Bye.