There is not a bigger debate in the world of Construction, Home Improvement, and Remodeling than why is lumber quality getting so bad. What is good? What is bad? Old Growth vs New Growth. Are YOU helping lumber quality in the rack get worse? We dive in and tell you what is fact and what is a complete myth in this episode of Around the House. Check it out!

Thanks for listening to Around the house if you want to hear more please subscribe so you get notified of the latest episode as it posts at https://around-the-house-with-e.captivate.fm/listen

We love comments and we would love reviews on how this information has helped you on your house! Thanks for listening! For more information about the show head to https://aroundthehouseonline.com/

We have moved the Pro Insider Special on Thursday to its new feed. It will no longer be on this page. You can find it and subscribe right here: https://around-the-house-pro-insider.captivate.fm/

Information given on the Around the House Show should not be considered construction or design advice for your specific project, nor is it intended to replace consulting at your home or jobsite by a building professional. The views and opinions expressed by those interviewed on the podcast are those of the guests and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of the Around the House Show.

Mentioned in this episode:

Baldwin Hardware

Baldwin Hardware

A new kind of decking and siding from Millboard

For more information about the latest in decking and cladding head to https://www.millboard.com/

[00:00:27] Eric Goranson: Here's the length you can work with. So I think it's, it's a waste of energy. To get hung up on the old growth, new growth, because really you're not seeing in lumber out there, old growth forest stuff showing up in the lumber yard. It's just nonexistent. So really what you wanna be looking at. If you want that tighter grained wood, you want to be getting, you know, the fur hardwood versus the hemlock, which is a little softer.

[00:01:15] Eric Goranson: Hey, Caroline, how are you today?

[00:01:21] Eric Goranson: We're gonna talk about a hotly debated subject this hour lumber. Let's talk about what issues have you had, cuz you're in the middle of some, uh, remodeling projects around your place. What issues have you had with lumber?

[00:01:49] Caroline Blazovsky: Let they use the word less quality lumber.

[00:02:15] Eric Goranson: If you walk into a lumber yard, That is designed around that spec home builder. That's building, you know, it's a, it's a, they're cranking out lumber to all the spec home builders out there, the big developments they're carrying either finger joint, or the cheapest lumber they can cuz it's all about price, which means you are getting from a mill that has lower quality lumber or they're buying a grade that is much lower.

[00:02:47] Caroline Blazovsky: So, so when I go through mm-hmm so like, if I pull into a lumber yard, I always pick my own lumber. Like I go through and look at all the different pieces and pick what I want, but see, a lot of people rely on their contractor to bring their own stuff. And I don't recommend [00:03:00] that cuz you don't know what you're getting,

[00:03:06] Eric Goranson: here's why. So if you walk into a home center, If you show up, right? When that associate is pulling that bunk of lumber down outta the overhead and putting it in the rack, they're cutting the bands. They're pulling the covering off, off you go into it. You'll probably have a higher quality lumber than what many of the lumber yards have.

[00:03:51] Eric Goranson: This is perfect. This is perfect. This has no knots. So by the time you show up a couple hours later, somebody's already [00:04:00] hydrated the lumber that you've picked HighEd. So now you got the crap stuff, right? So now you've got the junk that was left. So that's the challenge is if you walk into a lumber yard, most of the time, the homeowners haven't gone in there, the contractors gone in they've picked the stuff up.

[00:04:42] Eric Goranson: It's all over the place. That's why lumber prices have been up. They've been down. They've been all over the place. The problem is, is when the prices are high, lumber yards are buying as little as they can because they think the numbers are gonna go down so they don't wanna buy. [00:05:00] Let's say they buy a, a two by four.

[00:05:13] Caroline Blazovsky: It's like the stock market.

[00:05:27] Eric Goranson: They're buying it as cheap as they can to get the cheapest. So you'll see different grades of lumber, but generally the home centers are trying to beat that quality of lumber, like home Depot, lows, those big guys, they're trying to bring in better quality of lumber, but it's the homeowners picking through the pile is the problem.

[00:06:06] Caroline Blazovsky: And now it seems like you can get better stuff at a local box store. Now, I don't know what's going on. If, if it's the pricing that's affected how much the lumber yard's getting and you know that they can get a better price when you go through a big box store, I'm sure they can negoti. You know, with the lumber sure.

[00:06:23] Eric Goranson: but it's not just that. It's the individual lumber yards of who they're buying the mill, the lumber from of the quality of lumber. They're getting, if you're working and I've worked in lumber yards where you've ordered materials and you've ordered stuff, you know, which mills are kicking out the best quality lumber, you might be paying a little more for it.

[00:06:57] Caroline Blazovsky: let's just talk really briefly about like, if [00:07:00] someone's gonna grab a piece of lumber, you know, what is a good piece of lumber?

[00:07:10] Eric Goranson: You don't want, that's fine. If you're buying framing lumber, lot knots are not a big deal. It don't matter. Really depends on what you're doing, right? Yeah. I mean, if you're just framing up a wall, unless the knot has a split in it, or it's not tight, doesn't matter.

[00:07:44] Eric Goranson: Now, the difference is here is that if you wanna go, we're gonna talk about this a little later. That's maybe where engineered lumber might be a better fit for you. And we'll talk about that later in the show, but the, you know, when you're picking stuff, don't worry about a [00:08:00] nod in it, especially with stuff.

[00:08:18] Eric Goranson: You've got a smaller log that still has branches. Trees gotta have branches to live mm-hmm so it's gonna have more knots in it because those knots are still there. It's a smaller tree. So you're working with more lumber to the exterior than a big, huge, a hundred year old, old, old growth. How

[00:08:38] Caroline Blazovsky: Um, my contractor always asks me to go with a try to see if it has a bigger ring. So I guess that means it's an older piece of wood versus no smaller

[00:09:02] Eric Goranson: Where, if you have a tree that was maybe they clear cutted that area, and this tree was growing fast. Those rings are gonna be wider because they maybe got more water or they grew faster. So it's a, a fast of growth and a lot of the memes that you see, and we're gonna go out to break here or does he,

[00:09:21] Caroline Blazovsky: So he's saying, is it, I forget it's either tighter or bigger. He looks tighter, like

[00:09:36] Eric Goranson: Let's talk about that. Just as soon as around the house returns,

[00:10:00] Eric Goranson: Welcome back to the round, the house show Caroline and I have been talking about, well, we've been talking about lumber today and right when we were jumping out to break there, we were talking about kind of the, the, the debate of the rings around wood. You had a contractor that was saying, Hey, I want to get really tight wood with just a little tight rings to it versus the, the bigger space between the rings.

[00:10:24] Caroline Blazovsky: Yeah. He was making me get pieces that were, he felt, and now he comes from, like, I was explained to Eric, he's like three generations of being a carpenter. So for some reason, the quality of the wood is very important to him.

[00:10:43] Eric Goranson: It's more stressful environment. Yes. That is slightly harder wood than the stuff that's grown a little quicker. Is there a difference? Not really. I mean, it is a little bit, but engineering wise, if you pull up an engineering table and say, okay, I'm [00:11:00] using this species of wood, there is no engineering table that says, oh, that's old growth wood.

[00:11:28] Eric Goranson: And out of the forest being harvested out there, the last number I saw, there's only 7% left. Forests that are able to be harvest that have old growth lumber in them. So it's just really something that's non-existent out there. Existent mm-hmm so you'll see a tree or two that'll come through. That's got that.

[00:12:07] Eric Goranson: Really tight rings and one with the really wide rings. And they're like, oh, that new growth stuff is junk and all that. Here's the problem that meme has two different wood species that grow at two completely different rates. One of them is more of a soft wood. One of 'em is more of a hardwood, so it's completely false.

[00:12:55] Eric Goranson: You know, versus a Doug. Yeah. I'm a Doug

[00:13:18] Caroline Blazovsky: And that seems to be a problem. They say from all this quick growth, too, that the wood is sugar.

[00:13:44] Eric Goranson: So when they kill dry, they take it in, they stack it up with air going between it and they put it in an oven. And bake the humidity out of it. So they force dry it. So they'll get it up in there to [00:14:00] 140, 150 degrees. If there's any mold or mildew on it. At that point, it's dead. It's killed it. So it's come through it, kil drys it and makes it so it's more dimensionally stable, it's all stacked.

[00:14:30] Eric Goranson: But now the problem is, is when you build a house. Let's say you build a two or three story house. You could see up to an inch of shrinkage as that house. Dries out. So there's some of the issues you have to be careful with. For instance, in Florida, they run into that, where you build a house, they have to go back and retension those cable ties or rod ties that hold the house down because they'll tighten it up.

[00:15:02] Caroline Blazovsky: see a lot of moldy wood at the lumberyard here. I don't know why that happens. Like, I'm not sure if it's not, you know, it's, it's TA the K N on. Um, but it always

[00:15:17] Eric Goranson: Right. You know, that's why you don't see that in the lumber yards, because it literally leaves the kiln dry it's usually wrapped up in plastic and it goes right indoors in the lumber yard. So my secret is, is I like to see lumber yards at least have the lumber. In a covered area, like indoor a, a roof area or covered.

[00:15:42] Caroline Blazovsky: I think, I think too, have so much humidity here that it's very different. Right? I think they put this stuff up, they stack it up. And if, even if you get some back spray that like comes in, you know, so you get a real bad storm. That's coming sideways.

[00:16:04] Eric Goranson: conditions. Well, I wanna talk about on this segment here next about OSB and plywood. Mm. I favor because there's some interesting stuff there, you know, I'm seeing now with water intrusion and we're not talking like, you know, zip system is all OSB.

[00:16:42] Eric Goranson: Because they're using greener glues.

[00:16:54] Eric Goranson: away. Yep. So you're seeing that. So you gotta be careful. That's why I kind of, [00:17:00] you know, the zip systems and some of this other stuff you don't worry about that.

[00:17:24] Eric Goranson: Um, you don't want to get it where that thing's getting wet. We have that in Portland here where we're in the wintertime that you know, in Seattle as well, it's a west coast. Coastal issue where we get the rain we'll have houses that are being built. And all of a sudden the outside is black of the she goods because of the rain and the mold and the moisture.

[00:17:44] Caroline Blazovsky: this can also happen in basement. So if your basement's unfinished and you have exposure to all your studs and flooring above it, that can, I've see, I've walked into so many houses for inspection, and I've seen all the lamination that takes place, especially. On the quiet floor systems. And I [00:18:00] know people like them and that's where we go, but I've seen a lot of it.

[00:18:05] Eric Goranson: takes us back to, so like anything in that situation, you gotta control the humidity, right? A hundred percent. There you go. So that's one of the keys to this and we come back here. I wanna talk about another big subject. And this is a big one. There's a lot of different debates out there with wood and genetically modified wood.

[00:18:41] Eric Goranson: Hey, this is Ron keel, the middle cowboy from keel, the Ron keel band and Steeler. We are. Around the house with Eric G. Ray is your best

[00:19:13] Eric Goranson: If we've helped you on something, we'd love to see those reviews up there on the podcast. Well, Caroline, we've been debating the big lumber debate what's going on with lumber out there

[00:19:28] Eric Goranson: of lumber there is. And I wanted to jump into something that I've seen.

[00:19:56] Caroline Blazovsky: always thought the two were the same.

[00:19:58] Eric Goranson: Now in engineered [00:20:00] wood is. for instance, like timber strand by a Warehouser is an engineered wood. That is actually a two by four or two by six. That's made that looks like OSB. It's a stranded wood that is put and glued together. So

[00:20:27] Eric Goranson: So like the timber strand LSL framing is a good one. I have used this stuff. I love it. And I'll tell you why. The reason why I love that product is it is always straight. It doesn't warp and it is stronger because there's no knots and bends and stuff in it. So in today's framing, When you frame up a wall, you can do 24 inches on center and fill that whole cavity up with insulation [00:21:00] and have a stronger wall that if you had 16 on center, because every time that you have a stud, that is a place where energy easily go through the wall, cuz wood let's heat.

[00:21:18] Caroline Blazovsky: is, but the problem comes down to, from my perspective, it's the same with the O SB. We've got no moisture penetration, which helps with your energy recovery costs. However, we've gotta get rid of the moisture in the home, cuz if you put this stuff up and it's not breathable, doesn't allow vapor through.

[00:21:35] Eric Goranson: got mold. Exactly. So, I mean, that's why you have your same issues, your weather resistant barrier on the outside, you know, that kind of stuff to keep that mm-hmm, going through there, but this gives you a much better insulation from that. Now a genetically modified or an engineered genetically engineered would is where they're taking science is taking and trying to create new, faster growing species of.[00:22:00]

[00:22:27] Eric Goranson: And, and doing that now, there are some woods where they've done hybrids, like any other plant or any other where they combine two species together, you know, like how they could create to make a strong, right. Yeah. Make a, of course a new hybrid wood. Like, um, one that I used to use in cabinets was a tu, which is a eucalyptus hybrid where it's almost like a eucalyptus wood and a mahogany.

[00:23:08] Caroline Blazovsky: like, we were talking about the fur. They're mixing the fur with no, the,

[00:23:18] Eric Goranson: That those are just regular hemlock fur trees that are out there. So they're not hybrid those. Those are just regular forest wood that they're grabbing.

[00:23:40] Eric Goranson: that it, well, it's a mixture it's that's alar or something like that probably is what it is.

[00:24:01] Eric Goranson: And it really just depends on what type of what they planted. In the, in the forest the last time they take it down. And that's one of the things that we see out there is that, you know, um, when you go out and harvest an area for lumber, they go back and it's federal law. They have to go back and plant that area.

[00:24:42] Eric Goranson: And then you have the, the engineered wood, which I think, and it's a great, it's a great place to use it in certain places. If I'm gonna be doing a bathroom or a kitchen, an interior wall, I love using that timber strand framing because it is dead, straight, never an issue. You can lay that in there. [00:25:00] It's gonna be solid.

[00:25:16] Caroline Blazovsky: explain it to my clients that when you use a real wood, it has the ability to take on moisture and release it back into the air.

[00:25:37] Caroline Blazovsky: I'm looking from a health perspective. I get worried about them because I don't feel they have the durability when it comes to the moisture control. So we have different opinions

[00:25:55] Eric Goranson: Wall cavity, it's still gonna be gross. It's that two by four breaks down and gets so [00:26:00] nasty that two by four. And I've been in them where they look like gray mush, of

[00:26:05] Caroline Blazovsky: And we're not saying that you can, where they've just got, you can use lumber and just dump water on it and keep expect to keep coming back.

[00:26:24] Eric Goranson: Yeah. Little bit quicker, depending on the product. Exactly.

[00:26:47] Eric Goranson: Anyway, that's up against the concept. So I see a lot of

[00:27:02] Caroline Blazovsky: So, um, but yeah, and what I do is actually recommend they open up the windows on, you know, especially if you're in a shore area and let that salt water come in, cuz it'll really out. Gass it faster?

[00:27:18] Eric Goranson: When you get treated lumber that has been K dry and then what they do is they either soak it or inject it with that treatment. Nice. So when you're working with that, I mean, it's, it's, you know, it's much healthier than it was before. It's not really toxic, like a Turkey. You still gotta be careful. Yeah.

[00:27:56] Eric Goranson: So when you're smelling that, that's just the wood drying out [00:28:00] in a less humid space. So you're getting the moisture out of that. Gotcha. So that's a key. All right. When you come back, let's dive into this one. This is a big one here. We're gonna talk about the debate of old growth in new growth lumber and recycled lumber, which is another key one.

[00:28:24] Eric Goranson: right?

[00:28:58] Eric Goranson: Mm-hmm what have you seen out there [00:29:00] with the. Have you been running into recycled lumber on job sites that you've seen yet? Is it something that, uh, you're seeing out in your area? No.

[00:29:21] Caroline Blazovsky: I always think about a pickle company. Yep. Or the lumber stunk like pickle. I mean, how can you really get that stuff out? And. Does that end up in our wood and now we're, you know, as an environmental per yeah. You know, consultant, what do I have to look for in a house? Am I gonna have to be worried? Yeah.

[00:29:35] Eric Goranson: So, yeah, that was a project that we did. We're using, uh, trying to build a big mantle fireplace mantle and client went and got some reclaimed wood. It came from the N valley pickle factory. You like Nally potato chips. This was Nally valley in Tacoma. This is where they came out with all their Nally pickles.

[00:30:12] Eric Goranson: But what you're seeing now is that you're seeing. Like in Portland here where we're at. If you're gonna tear down a house built before 1940, it has to be dismantled and recycled period. I can't bring an excavator in there and knock it down. It has to get handed disassembled. So now those lumber that Lumber's coming out in trying to be used in construction projects.

[00:30:57] Eric Goranson: So they're killing wood, they're baking out [00:31:00] chemicals, you know, most of the time in a house, it's not an issue, you know, you're not having it. Like it was a, I'd be more concerned if that lumber came from an industrial site than if it was, you know, a house built 1920.

[00:31:21] Caroline Blazovsky: What if you had a fire mm-hmm I mean, we test a lot of these things. It makes me nervous. I have to say, because I know what's in a house and I, and I wouldn't wanna see it end up in somebody else's

[00:31:38] Eric Goranson: A lot of that wood, that's hard. It's really hard, you know? And so you've got old growth lumber that was cut out of the forest, you know, a hundred years ago. Now it's rock hard because it's had a hundred years of aging to it. And so now it's harder to work with. It's harder to nail. It's harder to work, you know, into the, into the project.

[00:32:25] Eric Goranson: But we talked about a little bit earlier and we were debating it. Really when it comes down to is if you look at the strength and the engineering of what you're doing. So if you, you know, there's engineering tables where they say, okay, I'm gonna calculate the strength of a beam for instance, right. Or a floor joist, they'll give you that wood species.

[00:33:07] Eric Goranson: It's just nonexistent. So really what you wanna be looking at, if you want that tighter grained wood, you wanna be getting, you know, the fur hardwood versus the hemlock, which is a little softer. You know, you can get some of that stuff that is really kind of a hard one. It's beautiful, but you're gonna pay for it.

[00:33:39] Caroline Blazovsky: sense? So you don't think that yeah. If you're working well, I mean, you're when you're a hundred percent, right. First off you can't get old wood anyway. Right. That's kind of like the point. Yeah. All you can get is new wood.

[00:33:57] Eric Goranson: really. And if you're worried about it, you know, if you're worried about getting [00:34:00] something that's straight, perfectly, it's gonna be the most dimensionally stable you should be going over the timber strand or their competitors, because that's gonna be a, a, a stronger, more dimensionally stable at anyone.

[00:34:23] Caroline Blazovsky: Depends what you're doing. So the job, you know, you gotta, again, planning, making sure that you're getting the right materials for the job is important.

[00:34:51] Eric Goranson: How much lumber did you buy? How much could you not use? Because it was twisted. The lumber yard dropped it off. Right? How much are you [00:35:00] wasting at the end of the day? You're like, oh, that's crap. I'm getting that. Not using that. So you really gotta think about how much you're wasting, and this is pretty efficient because you're using really the waste product of wood from the sawmill, those big chips and strands that they're putting on, depending on the product you get.

[00:35:25] Caroline Blazovsky: So it's interesting stuff, pluses and minuses. Yeah. There's pluses and minuses

[00:35:34] Eric Goranson: But. Just like I said, uh, when all of us go into that lumber yard or home center, we start really picking for the pretty stuff we should be probably over in a different bunk of lumber. If it's gonna be appearance grade, we should now be looking over at like the S four S sanded finished, you know, whatever the, the sanded finished side is.

[00:36:11] Eric Goranson: Sounds good. I like us using some of these recycled woods. I think there's a great way. I think we still have a long way to go though, to make sure that we're doing it safely because Caroline you're right. Exactly. Um, I wanna make sure that that stuff's coming there and in the I'd love to see some scientific studies on it to see if they'd have to

[00:36:41] Caroline Blazovsky: Very very long lifespans. We're talking 20 years. Like they could be in the wood and have exposure to the air and still maintain their integrity. So I would be interested to see how they're getting that out of the wood. You know, when they're recycling, cuz I just don't think it's really happening. I would

[00:37:02] Eric Goranson: That's been, you know what I mean? I'm curious because if you think about it, no, no I'm with you. Uh, you know, and I don't know, I'm not the scientist here. Right? I'm I'm not, I don't play one on TV either. I'd love to see how maybe throwing that in that kiln for kill dry. Does it, does it break that stuff out?

[00:37:30] Caroline Blazovsky: Some biologicals, right? Yeah. But when you're dealing with pesticides and things that have half life and they break down into other metabolites and you've got other issues, so, you know, you could actually make something worse, you know, you could take a glyphosate and break it down and do an APA, which is.

[00:37:49] Eric Goranson: my thing. And again, that, and didn't know too much. Yeah. And that, that's the thing, too. If you're out, you know, shopping for re cleaned lumber for that project inside the house, we've talked about it many times, but just make sure you [00:38:00] know, where it came from.

[00:38:22] Eric Goranson: It would kick kill that. And so it wasn't an issue.

[00:38:35] Eric Goranson: Traditionally? It. Um, I've got a little lumber yard here. There was a big one in my area that I used, but I, I many times I'd go in there and I'd get my lumber. I'd buy it, go back to the backyard. And the stuff was so junk. I'd go back. And actually I ended up going back and getting my refund twice. And when I hear the music, Caroline, it's time to go.