Maria Franzoni is a former speaker bureau owner and author of The Bookability Formula. She shares a blunt, practical view of what makes a speaker bookable in the UK and European markets, and why “being good” is not the same as “getting hired”. This show is unmissable if you're serious about speaking.

What we cover

1. Why “follow your passion” is often terrible business advice
2. The UK/Europe market reality vs the US speaking market
3. Why relevance to a paying market comes before polishing a keynote
4. What really builds credibility (and what screams “fake”)
5. The networking mistake almost everyone makes
6. Why speakers overrun and how it hurts the event (and other speakers)
7. The real reason top-paid speakers get booked
8. What makes organisers and bureaus reject someone instantly
9. Demo videos: why bad video is worse than no video
10. Whether your full keynote should be public or private
11. Plagiarism in the speaking industry and why it happens
12. Podcast guesting as visibility and as training for concise communication

Key takeaways

1. Relevance is the filter. If the market doesn’t care, your passion won’t save you.
2. Proof beats claims. Testimonials, outcomes and case studies do the heavy lifting.
3. Bookability is business. Relationships, follow-up and sales habits matter more than most speakers want to admit.
4. Assets signal quality. A weak demo video can quietly kill deals before you’re even considered.
5. Great speakers are often not the highest paid. The most bookable speakers usually run the best business.

Guest

Maria Franzoni

1. LinkedIn: Maria Franzoni
2. Website: mariafranzoni.me
3. Book: The Bookability Formula (Great read)

Links and resources mentioned

1. Speaker bureau newsletters and topic forecasts (example: Chartwell)
2. The Dip (Seth Godin), referenced by John in the wider show context
3. Judy Carter (comedy writing advice mentioned), The New Comedy Bible, and see previous guest appearance.

Chapters

00:00 The bookability reality check: talent vs getting hired

01:10 “Follow your passion” is bad advice (and what to do instead)

03:20 UK/Europe vs US markets, and why relevance matters more here

06:05 Credibility: why “I can speak on anything” is a red flag

09:10 Proof and positioning: testimonials, outcomes, and avoiding fake signals

11:10 Relationship-first marketing: why “pitch slapping” backfires

16:20 Professionalism on stage: time overruns, preparation, and rehearsal

29:05 Finding a bookable topic: test before you build

32:40 Networking that works: depth over volume, and why it’s a business

38:30 Bookability signals: style, language, demo videos, and full-talk access

49:10 Plagiarism and protecting your IP

52:10 Podcasting for speakers: visibility plus training (and wrap)

If you enjoyed this

Rate the show 5* on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. It helps the algorithm do its thing, so more speakers find the show without you having to become a street evangelist.

Visit https://strategic-speaker.scoreapp.com to take the 2-minute Strategic Speaking Business Audit and find out what's blocking you from getting more bookings, re-bookings, referrals and bigger fees. There's a special surprise gift for everyone who completes the quiz.

Want to get coached for free on the show? Fill in the form https://forms.gle/mo4xYkEiCjqtz9yP6, and if we think your challenge could help others, we'll invite you on.

For speaking enquiries or to connect with me, you can email john@presentinfluence.com or find me on LinkedIn

You can find all our clips, episodes and more on the Present Influence YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@PresentInfluence

Thanks for listening. Rating the show 5* on Spotify helps their algo recommend the show, so please take a moment to follow the show and leave us a rating there.

Mentioned in this episode:

The Strategic Speaking Business Audit

Take this quick quiz to find out where and why your speaking business is leaking opportunities.

Are you a capable speaker, but.

2

Still struggling to get booked or

rebooked or referred consistently,

3

there's a good chance that that's

not because of your talent.

4

In fact, talent may not

be the issue at all.

5

In this episode, we're gonna give you a

clear-eyed look at what actually gets,

6

because booked and paid, especially in the

UK and European markets, without relying

7

on hype, hustle, or hope as a strategy.

8

My guest today is the

amazing Maria Franzoni.

9

I love Maria.

10

She's booked thousands

of speakers globally.

11

She's run a speaker bureau and

literally written the book on

12

it, The Bookability formula.

13

She sees what works and what

quietly kills a speaking business.

14

We talk about things like credibility,

relevance, demo videos, networking.

15

Why follow your passion is terrible

advice and why being good is

16

not the same as being bookable.

17

In fact, there's a question I asked Maria

about top level speakers, but the answer

18

to that I think is gonna shock you.

19

Now, welcome to Professional Speaking.

20

This is the show for speakers who

are serious about their craft,

21

their business, and their mission.

22

My name's John Ball, keynote

speaker, speaker, development

23

coach, and standup comedian.

24

I'm here as your guide on your journey to

achieving a top level speaking business.

25

Well listener, a lucky podcast host

'cause I get to interview some of the

26

very best people and I'm very excited

to be bringing to you today someone

27

who I've been looking forward to having

on the show and introducing to you

28

if you haven't encountered it before.

29

Her name's Maria Franzoni and she is great

at helping people with getting booked.

30

And so she also has a really, really good

book called The Book Ability Formula.

31

I'm gonna, you're gonna love

hearing from Maria, so welcome

32

to the show, Maria Franzoni.

33

Maria Franzoni: I love it, John,

when people big you up and you

34

think, oh, so downhill from here.

35

John: Do you know, Maria,

been reading your book.

36

I've been on one of your webinars.

37

I've been listening to your show,

the one you do by yourself and

38

the one with, with James Taylor.

39

And, and I have to say,

your, your stuff is so good.

40

I have no worries about things

going downhill from here.

41

I have every confidence, every confidence.

42

I sometimes like to kick things off though

by, but I just wondering whether, whether

43

there's, whether there's anything you

have as a sort of opinion or viewpoint

44

in your sector, in, in the area you work

in that maybe is a little counter or,

45

contrary or different to what you hear

other people saying in the industry.

46

Maria Franzoni: Oh, there's lots, John.

47

We can, we can start a riot.

48

I think, yeah, I think the big one is,

and, and people are coming round to this

49

now, thank goodness is there's been a

lot of advice about, follow your passion

50

and your passion will

lead to making money.

51

It won't, if nobody's going to pay

to hear or learn about your passion.

52

So my starting point is

always with, the market.

53

So most people start with the

speech, they start with their topic.

54

I always start with the market because

if you are not relevant to paying

55

market and you want to get paid to

speak, because that's the business that

56

been in, you are wasting your time.

57

But there's, there's lots of other things

that I would agree and disagree with.

58

So, yeah, so we could, we could make the

whole thing about what are your opinions?

59

yeah.

60

Yes.

61

Interesting.

62

Thank you, John.

63

John: It's, it's, it's

a nice way to start off.

64

And, and I will say, Maria, it is

very in keeping with, with how,

65

how I view the, what you share.

66

Because one of the things I particularly

like about you, and you often will say

67

you're not for everybody because you,

you, you kind of direct with stuff and

68

you don't dress things up for people.

69

And I think personally, I'm one

of those people need to hear

70

the stuff is like, we don't.

71

We can't just hear what we want to hear

or what we want to be told all the time.

72

If we, if we wanna be challenged,

we need to be challenged.

73

We need to be, sometimes awakened to the

realities of, of business, especially

74

because it's not all fluffy and light

and easy and follow your passions as some

75

people would like to have as beliefs.

76

So, so personally, I'm with

you and, and and I love that.

77

I agree.

78

My, my first, I think my first big

personal development event, there was

79

a guy had this, he even had written

a book about following your passions.

80

And I now, I think that's such bad advice.

81

I know that, we, we've spoken before

about how, some of the differences

82

and similarities between work I've

done with like, Grant Baldwin's

83

Speaker Lab when I was working as a

coach for them and what you do and,

84

and how things different in Europe.

85

And I think that leads us into one of

those things that perhaps is a little

86

bit different because for people who are

speaking more in the UK and around Europe.

87

Where in the US you probably

could get booked as a speaker

88

for just about any topic.

89

That's not really the case in the UK

and Europe would, would you say so?

90

Maria Franzoni: Yeah, there's

several differences actually

91

with the, with the US market.

92

The, the US market is very

advanced in many ways, and it's

93

also very peculiar in other ways.

94

so yes, I agree.

95

You have to be very, it has

to be a topic that's relevant.

96

What we said before, it has to be relevant

to what's going on in, in the, in the

97

markets, the industries, in the audiences.

98

The other difference is, if you want

to start going slightly off tangent

99

here, but if you wanna start in the

US market, you can start by going

100

and working through associations.

101

Because in the US there's an

association for just about everything.

102

There's thousands of them,

tens of thousands of them.

103

I wouldn't be surprised if

there's hundreds of thousands.

104

I'll have to get my chat, GPT to do a

research and find out how many there are.

105

And the di the difference there is

that they actually pay you quite well.

106

Whereas here, the majority of associations

don't pay very well apart from maybe

107

their big annual awards event if

they're a big association, because

108

the associations here are smaller.

109

Than they are

110

there.

111

Everything's bigger in the us right?

112

But Middle East Asia, we're seeing

Africa, we're seeing o other markets

113

sort of growing at a faster pace for

speakers, which is also interesting.

114

I've gone slightly off

piece, haven't I, John?

115

I do tend to do that, I'm afraid.

116

John: It, it, but it's not,

it's not too much off piece.

117

because, if, if someone is primarily

looking for work around the UK and

118

Europe, and, and I know a lot, a lot

of my listeners pro, probably primarily

119

around UK and Europe, they, they may

not be looking to get started with

120

associations in the US and if they want

a long-term speaking career where they're

121

not having to travel internationally

all the time, they may be better

122

off focusing on corporate speaking.

123

Maria Franzoni: Yeah,

124

absolutely.

125

Great

126

John: think that's right?

127

Yeah.

128

Maria Franzoni: Yeah, that's great.

129

And if you are looking for, what are the

topics, what's going on, what is getting

130

booked a great resource in, in, wherever

you are based in the world is actually

131

looking at Speaker Bureau websites.

132

And I would say sign up to their,

newsletters because they'll tell

133

you, I mean, Chartwell recently,

distributed newsletter, you might have

134

heard me mention it on the webinar

if you were on that webinar, where

135

they listed these were the topics for

136

It's gonna be for 2026.

137

So you'll get a lot of insights from

them because the bureaus tend to work

138

with the top 10% paying organizations.

139

and so they're sort of seem,

they're usually ahead of, of

140

what's going on in the market.

141

And if you're trying to decide, well, how

do I tailor my topic to what's happening?

142

Great resource to go there.

143

John: Yeah, I say this, I wonder if you've

ever had this experience, Maria, but

144

I've had people come to me as clients,

wanting coaching in this area who want

145

to, they'll come to me and they'll say

something like, I can talk on anything.

146

Point me to where the money is, and

that's what I'm gonna go and do.

147

And, and I'm, I'm like, straight away

red flags coming up everywhere for me.

148

It's like, I'm not happy with that

at all, but wonder if you've ever

149

had that and, and how you've handled

it, if you have, or anything similar.

150

Maria Franzoni: Yeah, so there's

two parts to that really in terms

151

of there's the topic that has to be

relevant to market, but you have to,

152

when somebody looks at you, you've gotta

be credible to talk about that topic.

153

So if you haven't got the experience, the

expertise, the credibility to back that

154

topic up, then, so if I said, decided

AI is one of the hot topics, right?

155

I'm gonna go out and talk about

156

ai.

157

I've got nothing in my background,

apart from the fact that I use chat GPT

158

every day to say that I'm an AI expert.

159

So immediately, one, wouldn't be

credible as soon as I'm on the

160

stage because I wouldn't be able

to deliver cred credibility there.

161

But also.

162

Bookers looking at me, they're gonna

see that there isn't the substance.

163

So you have to, you can't just

pluck a topic out of the air.

164

You really have to have that

experience to say, oh, right.

165

Maria's qualified to talk about

getting booked and paid to speak,

166

because she's booked thousands of

speakers globally for a lot of money.

167

So I've done, I've done the, what is that,

10,000 hours that, Malcolm and Gladwell.

168

talks

169

John: Oh, the tipping point thing

170

yeah, I think that there's, there's some

truth to that, although in interestingly,

171

I dunno if you ever listen, there's

a podcast I love listening to called

172

If Books Could Kill, that kind of

pulls apart a lot of these, personal

173

development books and say, there's

some truth to the 10,000 hours things,

174

but it's not strictly true as well.

175

but yes, certainly the, the more

time or expertise you spent in

176

an area, the more credible you're

gonna seem as, as a speaker.

177

But I wonder, I mean, what this is, this

is a conversation I often find myself

178

having with people about credibility.

179

What, what, other than experience,

specific experience, what are the

180

things that give speakers credibility?

181

Maria Franzoni: Testimonials,

other people saying that they've

182

achieved those results, outcomes.

183

It's, it's always about outcomes.

184

what is the outcome?

185

What's the ROI, what's the return

our time of booking a speaker?

186

And that comes from past clients case

studies, proof you have to prove it.

187

And, there's a lot of people out there

who are very good at the marketing

188

piece and, and big themselves up.

189

But then when you look to see actually,

is there any substance, well, actually

190

they haven't got any testimonials.

191

They haven't got anything behind them.

192

So vital testimonials.

193

John: I'll share this with you.

194

say you may get this as a podcast host as

well, Maria, but I get, I get pitches from

195

the big guests on my show 'cause I have

a couple of shows as well, pretty much

196

every day, sometimes several times a day.

197

And, most of them are, are terrible and

most of them now come from agents as well.

198

But, early on, early on in

podcasting, for me at least, I would

199

sometimes get these really faked up.

200

What would you call them?

201

Fake faked up profiles from people.

202

And this one guy in

particular stands out for me.

203

It was just like he had a completely

fake video of him supposedly giving

204

some Tony Robbins style talk, and it

was so obviously fake and everything

205

about the profile was faked and the

testimonials were faked and everything,

206

everything looked very suspect.

207

And this guy was trying to

build up a, a, a career on that.

208

It's like he had, he had all the elements

that someone had told him to get, but

209

none of them were authentic for, for

anyone who had an eye for these things.

210

It's like there was, they,

they were just terrible.

211

Maria Franzoni: listen, I get 'em

every day as well, and it, it.

212

What's interesting is because that tells

me that the person who's sending them

213

to me hasn't done their research because

they'll know that every single person

214

that I speak to, and it's probably the

same with you, I know them because if I

215

don't know them on some level,

I've, I've either worked with them

216

or, represented them or there,

there's a relationship there.

217

And if there isn't a relationship

there, you don't have the

218

same level of conversation.

219

Why am I gonna, I'm not a

professional interviewer, I'm

220

just, I just like to chat, right?

221

So I'm not, if I were a professional

interview, it might be different because

222

then I could probably interview anybody.

223

But we are busy, we don't have the

time to do the research, right?

224

But when we know somebody, it's

very easy to have a conversation.

225

'cause you know them, you know

their work, you know what to ask.

226

You don't have to go researching, reading

all their books, et cetera, et cetera.

227

So, yeah, think, okay, you've

not, you've not done the research.

228

And I'm quite blunt and direct and

I go back to them and say, had you

229

listened to any of my episodes,

had you done your research?

230

You'd know this is not

how I invite guests.

231

So I've got a standard.

232

That.

233

John: You don't wanna have to

keep typing a considered reply

234

to every single email like that.

235

It would, it would be.

236

Be very time consuming.

237

But you sometimes I, sometimes I do

respond to them, sometimes I don't.

238

It does depend, but, undoubtedly there

are people out there who are still trying

239

to, fake it, I guess, in, in the industry.

240

Do, do you see much of

that, in the people?

241

No.

242

Do you are probably quite well

known in the speaker mode really.

243

Do you see much of people who are, who

don't really have the credibility and

244

are trying, trying to make it, and,

and trying to fake it in the industry?

245

Maria Franzoni: don't tend to

see too many of those myself as

246

speakers who are trying to make it.

247

I see a lot of coaches, sadly, who

are moving from different areas to,

248

to take to, to teach speakers how

to make it in the speaking industry.

249

And the problem is that if

you've not been in the speaking

250

industry, you dunno how it works.

251

A lot of the advice from personal

development or from, bus, from

252

other areas is bad advice.

253

and that frustrates me immensely.

254

and sort of the style of

marketing, the style of promoting

255

yourself is too aggressive.

256

From, for this industry you are

working with, especially at top

257

fee, you're working with senior

people, you are building, it's

258

about building relationships.

259

It's not about bombarding them and,

and what I like to call pitch slapping.

260

and, and a lot of that comes in from

the personal development world where,

261

where marketers are coming in and

teaching speakers, and please do not

262

go down the pitch slapping route.

263

Please do not go down

the aggressive route.

264

It's, it's, you don't need to be,

you don't need a huge number of

265

relationships in this industry to

be hugely successful because that

266

referral piece is, is so important here.

267

People trust other people who've worked

with speakers and will always ask for

268

recommendation or referral in the first

instance before going to somebody new,

269

which is why bureaus are still around

270

because that's their

job, that's their job.

271

John: I do think it's important for us

to remember that, that there is a right

272

and a wrong way to reach out to people.

273

And, and the spray and pray approach

is, is generally not, not a good one.

274

And inviting yourself into people's

dms or inboxes also not a good one.

275

If you haven't been connected

or referred or invited to email

276

them, you probably shouldn't be.

277

And while, while some people might

respond and politely decline, a

278

lot of people will just block.

279

But that doesn't, doesn't

really help you progress.

280

There is a right way

to reach out to people.

281

And you're right, a lot of marketers

who are kind of in the sort of

282

a, we can make some money out of

coaching people how to do this,

283

are teaching people bad techniques.

284

So they're teaching volume

over, over quality, which I

285

think is, is rarely effective.

286

Maria Franzoni: Yeah, spot on.

287

You nailed it.

288

John: Yeah, let, let me, lemme ask you,

'cause it's, uh, it is such an interesting

289

industry and, and you've, um, you have

experience as a, as a, having run a bureau

290

and so some fairly unique insight into the

industry for, for somebody who is sort of

291

thinking, oh, I, I want to do speaking.

292

I think maybe, I want to make money

at this and work around UK and

293

Europe, so I'm gonna have to focus

on corporate, but my background maybe

294

is in the arts or my background is

somewhere, not a corporate person.

295

I'm not a corporate speaker.

296

Could, could you still, in your opinion,

become a, a good corporate speaker?

297

Maria Franzoni: I think one of the

greatest, pleasures in life in this

298

industry is bringing people from

outside an environment and putting

299

them into a different environment.

300

'cause I think the lessons that

you can learn are fantastic.

301

And it's been, it's been done for years.

302

we've had sports people going in and

talking to businesses, Olympians, every

303

year the latest Olympians will go in.

304

So it it, it's normal for that.

305

And it's the same arts music.

306

In fact, later on today I am interviewing

a, a, a, a top musician from the

307

US and we'll be talking about how

he brings music into his speaking

308

and how he uses that as a metaphor.

309

and, he's worked with some of the greats.

310

So it's, it's, it's great fun.

311

I love that.

312

I think that opens your eyes

because I think for two sort of

313

like focused and internally focused,

we, we are not creative enough.

314

We are, we are missing opportunities.

315

So actually I like that.

316

And I imagine you, you, you must

do too, 'cause you've worked with

317

a lot of speakers, so you must have

worked with a huge variety of people.

318

John: very, very much so.

319

And, think it tends to make things

more interesting and, and we

320

underestimate people's ability

to be able to relate principles

321

across industries or, disciplines.

322

because you often, the principles

for success are transferable.

323

I think always actually the principles

of what works and what makes people

324

successful or, or, good leaders,

they're transferable across wherever.

325

And so sometimes hearing them in those

other spaces actually sometimes makes it

326

easier to relate to them because you, you

break out of your typical ways of thinking

327

or your preconceptions of what you deal

with more or less on a daily basis.

328

And, and you are a bit freer to

see some, maybe some new truths.

329

Maria Franzoni: And what's interesting

actually, John, is that a lot of people

330

who go into corporate who haven't worked

in corporate are, they'll go in and when

331

they, the mistake they make is they will

try to actually make the connection.

332

So, oh boy, when this happens

here for you, it'll be like that.

333

But actually don't do that because you

have no idea what it is like for them.

334

Because you've never worked

in corporate, you dunno.

335

Their business, the the audience

is intelligent enough to say, oh,

336

hang on, that would work for me

there if I did this or I did that.

337

so I see that often with a new

speaker who's trying to relate

338

it to that industry too much

339

and, and, and do the work that actually

an intelligent individual sitting in the

340

audience is gonna make those connections.

341

John: I always think there, there's

an element to which we, we tend

342

to judge things by just ba based

on what we know or what we see.

343

And so if we've only ever seen people

in those areas speaking like their

344

informal business suits and they have

corporate backgrounds and they look

345

and sound very corporate in those

environments, you think that's what

346

you're supposed to be in that environment.

347

And if you have come from a

corporate environment, you probably

348

almost certainly do think that.

349

and so when people come in who kind of

break those molds, it's much more engaging

350

for, for the people in those environments.

351

And I say for myself, like I was,

even had doubts about, I tend to,

352

I tend to joke a lot on stage.

353

like to make people laugh.

354

And I think that's a great way.

355

think the entertainment factor is actually

really important in speaking and, and,

356

and whether that was gonna really fit

in corporate and, and turns out that.

357

These people are desperate for a

laugh because they spend most of

358

their days being so serious in serious

meetings, serious conversation.

359

They're having to show up with, take

business seriously, and, and then someone

360

comes along who has them all in stitches.

361

They, these people are desperate to laugh

and some of the most responsive audiences.

362

Maria Franzoni: I am

always desperate to laugh.

363

John.

364

my favorite thing in life

is to go to comedy shows.

365

And in fact, at the time of re of

recording here, last weekend I went to

366

see Trevor Noah and I laughed so much.

367

I had to go to the bathroom afterwards

and sort my makeup out 'cause

368

I had a mascara down my cheeks.

369

I love a good laugh

370

John: Yeah.

371

Yeah.

372

saw, I,

373

Maria Franzoni: It's normal.

374

It's human.

375

It's human.

376

Sorry.

377

You saw that, you saw I posted

378

John: no, saw you post about it and

it was an interesting question you

379

brought up about, about him running

over so much on time as well, and, and

380

whether that was adding value or whether

it was a little bit disrespectful.

381

I have mixed opinions on it.

382

I don't, I don't have, sort of, yeah,

definitely he shouldn't have done

383

it, or definitely he should have.

384

It's like, I don't know.

385

There's, I can see both sides to it

and, yeah, it's only an interesting

386

point, but I know for myself, I would

be very concerned having been one of

387

the people who's worked behind the

scenes in so many of these things.

388

I would be very concerned about trying

to finish as close on time as possible.

389

Maria Franzoni: Yeah, no, absolutely.

390

really opinionated about it personally,

and think if somebody, somebody

391

should finish at the time that they've

been contracted to because the knock

392

on effect and repercussions, we've

digressed again, I do that all the time.

393

By the way, John,

394

John: it's, this is a nice digression.

395

Maria Franzoni: yeah, it is important

that if you are booked to speak, that

396

you are clear what the boundaries are.

397

I mean, obviously he's booked to

entertain, this is slightly different,

398

but if your contract says, speak for

45 minutes and we need you to finish

399

at that time, if the, if the client is

running over and the event's running

400

over and you've been contracted for

45 minutes, you have to check, do you

401

still want me to deliver 45 minutes

or do you need me to finish on time?

402

Because they've got an agenda.

403

So you, you've, it's very important that

it's the client's decision, not yours.

404

Whoever's

405

paying you is the decider.

406

it's, it is a fine line when it's

an, an entertainer in a theater

407

because of course the audience, many

of them would absolutely love it.

408

I saw the staff, a lot of them, very

unhappy because they wanted to get home.

409

and the, the management were unhappy

because of course, over time costs.

410

and, and also there are rules around there

because it's actually a, a, a, residential

411

area and you're not allowed to make a

noise after a certain amount of time.

412

People coming out, thousands

of people coming out of a venue

413

is, is breaking those rules.

414

So they could have faced a lar rather

large fine had it gone slightly longer.

415

But I think they were

just inside the margins.

416

John: But in interestingly, I mean this

is maybe more relevant, I ask this to be

417

more relevant to speakers, but then even,

even for a speaker who is maybe a more

418

celebrity, if, if someone like Trevor Noah

had been doing a keynote rather than his a

419

a, a comedy evening, whether there, there

is that some, hesitation about saying to

420

someone who's like a, maybe a star of the

show or someone who's very well known.

421

Can you cut things a bit short for

us because we're running over time?

422

Or, or if you just, tend to, people

tend to leave them and let them

423

do their thing or not want to

interfere or worry that they're

424

gonna get a bit feverish about stuff.

425

Maria Franzoni: I mean, that's

where an agent or a bureau

426

comes in really handy actually.

427

So, I dunno who his agent is, but I

probably, 'cause he has got a reputation

428

for going over, had I been his agent,

I probably would've been there on the

429

first night to step in so that the

client wouldn't have had to do it.

430

even if I, you have to make

a comedy thing out of it.

431

'cause, probably would've got the guy

on the first act to come in with a

432

one of those crook, the crooked, what

do they called those sticks with?

433

Have the crook on and

more or less pull him on

434

crooks.

435

They're called crooks.

436

Yeah.

437

Pull him off.

438

I probably would've

made it part of the act.

439

Potentially.

440

Giles Brandreth has a reputation

for running over and he has

441

John: I can well imagine.

442

Maria Franzoni: He, he has this thing

where he makes it part of the act in that,

443

that he, he tells a story at the beginning

that there's a piece of music that his,

444

his, family used to play very loudly when

he was talking too much to drown him out.

445

And of course, what happens at the end

is that music comes on to drown him out.

446

So it's like, okay, that's right.

447

I've gotta get off.

448

is probably set up, but

actually it works beautifully.

449

But to make it then part of the act

so that he knows, oh, I'm off now.

450

I definitely have to go off.

451

I think he'd handled it very, very well.

452

John: But I would say for any, for any

speaker who's ever been at the end of

453

a sequence of speakers, of a set of

speakers and and had several people over

454

run before you, and then getting told

you have about 10 minutes to deliver a

455

45 minute keynote, you probably don't

really want people over running, or, or

456

to be doing that to other people as well.

457

But it is, it's

458

Maria Franzoni: It happens.

459

John: A lot of people do it

460

Maria Franzoni: Yeah, it happens.

461

I, I see it.

462

at most conferences, sadly.

463

Yeah.

464

John: Yeah.

465

It's, do do you think that is just like

people wanting to give value or are they

466

being di was and wanting the stage time?

467

I mean, what, what, what do you

think is the main cause of it?

468

Maria Franzoni: I think it's lack of

preparation actually, really, honestly.

469

Because if you wanna give value, you

can give great value in 20 minutes,

470

and you can give great value in an

hour, but you just decide, which is the

471

great value that I'm gonna give today?

472

And you just prepare properly.

473

and it, it's, it's it's lack of

preparation, lack of consideration.

474

And it's like, I've been, I'm so

experienced I can do this, or I'm so

475

inexperienced and I haven't done it.

476

that's what I put it down to.

477

But others will have other opinions.

478

We've said before.

479

I've got opinions that might be different.

480

But, I do, and I do think

it's lack of consideration.

481

It's the beginning for

482

me, it's the beginning of that ego piece

that actually I'm more important than you

483

are my time's more important than yours.

484

John: yes.

485

It's one of the things I think about

this with, I think a lot of people

486

tend to be unprepared or underprepared

for, for their talks or, and,

487

and think they can just wing it.

488

And, and some people can get away

with it to a point, to a point.

489

But I honestly think that a talk is never

going to be as polished or professional

490

or layered as it could be if you're

doing it, improvise if you're improvising

491

it on the stage, or just, going, going

off what you've done before, rather

492

than delivering something polished.

493

But then I also, I also think, but

there is a point where sometimes things

494

can become a little bit too practiced

and a little bit too rehearsed.

495

And it is like, how, how, do

you have any thoughts about how

496

we get the right balance there?

497

Maria Franzoni: Oh, it's very difficult.

498

I think you can never, if, if you, you

can never get tired of your own content.

499

If you get tired of your own

content, that's a problem.

500

And you've, I've heard it, I've sat in

a, in an audience where somebody has

501

delivered the same thing and they are on

remote control and you are, they're on

502

the remote control and it's the worst.

503

so you've gotta be very careful.

504

I think part of it is ensuring you're

getting feedback all the time, but the

505

other part is also recording yourself

and, and watching it back, which

506

is horrible, but really important.

507

And these days it's very easy to do.

508

You don't necessarily have

to do it with a video camera.

509

You could have just one of these

devices that records you and

510

you can listen to the audio.

511

'cause the audio is a good, is a

very strong tell of whether you

512

are bored with your own content.

513

But it is a performance.

514

It has to be good.

515

And I like the way, so Andrew

Davis does some, does, adds five

516

new minutes on a regular basis.

517

He'll, he'll try five new

minutes and, and weave it in.

518

And I think that's a really good

way of, of freshening things up.

519

but yeah, if you're starting

to get tired and bored of it

520

yourself, you are in trouble.

521

you've gotta change it.

522

But these days, John, something

that's changing a lot is that,

523

organizations want you to customize

more than they've ever done before.

524

So it's gonna be difficult for you to

get bored, totally bored because you

525

are gonna have to change it, which

means that preparation piece is even

526

more important and you are so right.

527

Many people under prepare, they

underestimate how easy it is to get

528

on that stage and forget everything.

529

John: Yeah.

530

do have this conversation

with clients and with myself.

531

I have to be honest of, of that.

532

Part of what people pay you for when

they book you as a speaker is your

533

practice time, is your rehearsal time,

your, or the time that you are adding

534

in that additional content is not just

the time that you are traveling to and

535

from the event or time that you're on the

stage or doing stuff at, at the event.

536

It's the, it's the preparation

they are paying you for as well.

537

That people, if you're showing up

unprepared, you're not really in my books.

538

You're not doing what

you've been paid to deliver.

539

Maria Franzoni: Yeah.

540

Completely, totally and utterly.

541

do you, do you have, do you have

any tips on, on how to rehearse?

542

'cause find that quite hard myself.

543

John: have, I have a few and, because I

do, I do a lot of standup now as well.

544

It's actually helped me, I think with,

with some of my rehearsal because the kind

545

of person I see, I see a lot of standups.

546

this is me digressing now, but

I see a lot of standups come up

547

on stage and they've got their

notebooks with them and open mics.

548

That's, that's completely normal.

549

but I like to challenge myself,

Maria, and, and I don't like

550

getting up on stage with a notebook.

551

It's not a habit I ever want to get

into where I'm, especially if I'm

552

filming myself where I want to be going

off book and, and so I want to be.

553

I want to be note free

as much as possible.

554

I maybe have something there to refer

to, but most, I see sometimes speakers

555

flipping through their, flipping

through their joke books to try to, oh,

556

what, what joke am I gonna tell next?

557

It's like, how can you be that

unprepared to be on stage?

558

all it really takes is a

little bit of running through.

559

And so I will do things

like, will create content.

560

I will modify it a day later and

I'll go and look back at it later

561

again, because you never see it

with the same eyes when you go back

562

to it a day or several days later.

563

And that's a good time to be

making some edits and updates.

564

but then I want to run, run through it.

565

I'll always talk through it

because how I say stuff is

566

different to how I write stuff.

567

So I wanna make sure that it's written

how I would say it from a stage.

568

So it's not usually there was

gonna be edits from that, but

569

really then I will usually try

and break things down into chunks.

570

When it comes to, when it comes to

the days running up to a presentation,

571

or certainly the day off, I'm

running through stuff in my head.

572

I'll go for a walk and I'm running

through at least my, my syntax, my

573

set list, whatever I'm gonna be doing.

574

And then I'll come back and

check, did I miss anything out?

575

So I really want to try and push myself to

have this stuff locked in because that's

576

where I find I have more flexibility

on stage to be able to be able to make

577

jokes, take things in my stride, have

a little digression if it come, if it

578

becomes relevant, you can only do that

if you're relaxed and you can only

579

really be relaxed if you're prepared.

580

Maria Franzoni: Okay, so actually

my rehearsal's not so bad then.

581

'cause that sounds a lot like me.

582

My poor dog.

583

When we go on a walk, it has usually

got me talking my speech to the

584

poor dog and the dog's like, what?

585

Let's throw the ball.

586

So,

587

John: think you have to run through it.

588

You have, and you have to

do timing runs as well.

589

You, you should know,

590

Maria Franzoni: Timing.

591

John: How long it's gonna

take you to deliver the talk.

592

And you do have to add in pauses

and extra time because there will be

593

times where people are laughing or

people are clapping or or, or just

594

time to allow a point to sink in

595

Maria Franzoni: Hopefully,

596

hopefully they're laughing and clapping.

597

I

598

otherwise you, oh, I

finished 20 minutes early.

599

I was expecting some

laughter and some clapping.

600

John: But that's interesting

in itself, Maria.

601

I mean, if you don't get that, that

could be pretty, Deb, I've seen this with

602

comics and I've seen it with speakers.

603

If you don't get that, if you

don't get the response you expect

604

through your talk or presentation,

that could be pretty devastating.

605

But what do you do?

606

You just say, hopefully.

607

You don't just say, oh,

that's it, I'm done.

608

Maria Franzoni: Yeah.

609

No, no, no.

610

But I mean, with, with practice,

as you say, a bit of practice, a

611

bit rehearsal and also preparation.

612

If somebody doesn't respond to it,

you, you've got, you've probably

613

got a quip that you can add there.

614

Say, well, that was my best joke.

615

We're in trouble now.

616

Right.

617

so, you just a way of linking to it

so that you are getting people back.

618

But yeah, so, and sometimes you just

don't hear, the response because it

619

depends also on the setup, on the stage,

and sometimes you just don't hear it.

620

it's a bit like being

on Zoom or on a webinar.

621

You just don't know.

622

You have no idea.

623

Is that, is anybody still awake?

624

Have you all gone, just gimme a noise.

625

that, that's really tough actually

on, on, on Zoom when you just don't

626

know if, if anybody's still watching.

627

John: Well, especially with English

audiences, they are often, they take a

628

while to warm up and often could be a

little unresponsive at first when you,

629

when you get on there and they're waiting

to see, all right, what's coming up.

630

But you have to relax, relax British

audiences, particularly before the

631

conversations start, coming and the

responsiveness starts to come up.

632

I much prefer doing live, live

presentations to, to virtual for,

633

for someone who is maybe just

getting started off, one of the,

634

one of the toughest topics, and it's

usually really the place to start,

635

is figuring out what your topic is.

636

And we've already talked about the

probably not following your passions

637

and, and that AI is kind of a hot

topic right now, but how, how would you

638

advise somebody to find their topic?

639

Like what, what sort of things are

like where, where do you even start

640

to look and, and and, and think about

it in a way of what's something that

641

people would actually book me for?

642

Maria Franzoni: You test it, you

talk to people, you, you get out

643

there, you get into the market.

644

So if your, if your audience is

going to be corporate, if that's

645

where you want to be, you wanna

be all, where are the corporates?

646

Where are they?

647

A lot of them on LinkedIn.

648

What are they talking about?

649

What's the interesting to them?

650

What, what events are they attending?

651

What are they reading?

652

read the magazines, read the industry

magazines, go to events where you get a

653

lot of event organizers and event bookers.

654

So you've just gotta get out

there and start testing these out.

655

And I think a lot of speakers don't

test enough and will write the speech

656

before they've actually tested to see

is this, is this the right speech?

657

would rather that you create an

abstract of a speech or, a description,

658

with, what it's gonna be about,

who and what the outcome will be.

659

And you test it and test it

and test it before you prepare.

660

Spend several weeks preparing it

and practicing it and delivering it.

661

I

662

dunno if that's your view too, but

that's certainly what I would say.

663

John: it, it is, it is.

664

And, and certainly over, over years now

of working with people on these topics.

665

that is pretty much what I say as well

is that you probably want to have a.

666

A talk that you could, a topic and

talk that ready to go, that at least

667

outlined that you can, that you can

start to deliver and something that

668

you could actually start to record for.

669

At least start recording for a demo

if you're just getting started.

670

so that you have some extracts of, of your

talk, even if it's not the whole thing.

671

And, but then maybe you want to

have two or three keynotes, but

672

do you really want to prepare and

practice three different keynotes?

673

I'd say no, but you want to see

what people will book you for.

674

And so that's a great way to test it.

675

You're having keynotes and workshops.

676

I do this myself.

677

I have keynotes and workshops that

I haven't actually, I've outlined

678

them, but I haven't created them.

679

'cause I'm only gonna create

it if someone books it.

680

Maria Franzoni: Yeah.

681

John: they book it, great, then

hopefully more people will start

682

booking it and it's gonna be worth

me putting in the, the effort.

683

But, but it is that bit of market

research and, and you're right,

684

I think most people don't do it.

685

But here's, here's I think probably one

of the most painful aspects of that that

686

I see people do is thinking that they

have to have everything fully completed

687

before they even really get started trying

to prospect and get themselves booked.

688

Maria Franzoni: Yeah.

689

There's that.

690

They don't, they wait till they're

ready, which actually you should

691

be doing this beforehand, but you

should be building your network

692

and building relationships before

you've even got everything together.

693

You can't just wait suddenly.

694

Right.

695

And now I'm ready and say, oh,

I haven't got any connections.

696

Nobody knows me.

697

I haven't even got a LinkedIn profile.

698

I haven't got you.

699

You, you've got to start getting out there

and whether it's adjoining an association

700

that has your audience or whether it's

adjoining an association of speakers so

701

that you hear what's going on, attending

events where there are other speakers.

702

yeah, you've gotta get out there.

703

You've gotta network, network, network.

704

It's and actually networking is

so much easier these days 'cause

705

you could do a lot of it digitally

without even going out the house.

706

John: Yeah, I must have, I did some,

some pretty, I I you still in this thing?

707

I haven't done it much recently, but, a

thing called lunch club that I started

708

doing during, our lockdown years.

709

And, and that was great.

710

Just like you, it sets you up with like

a virtual coffee meetup with somebody

711

who's kind of matched to you with, with

profiles and interests of the kinds of

712

people you're looking to connect with.

713

And had some really good

experiences with that.

714

I might might just go back

to it in the new year.

715

but yeah, do, I do love the networking.

716

say this though, for me personally, I

haven't always found that networking,

717

in general has brought me a lot

of opportunity when I network at

718

specific events or after, after

talks and those kind of things.

719

Tho that tends to be where, people

are more focused on referring you or,

720

or, or get helping you get opportunity

in, in my experience at least, it's

721

like that, those are the best times to

722

Maria Franzoni: Yeah, well, I think,

yeah, so for me, I think the mistake a

723

lot of people make when they network,

and I'm sure you haven't done this,

724

but is that they try to meet too many

people and then don't go deep enough.

725

whereas I would rather, I went to an event

last night and probably had five really

726

deep conversations with five individuals

where at least three of those we're gonna

727

definitely do something out because we

went deeper than we would normally do when

728

you're speaking just for five minutes.

729

And we, we are already having

conversations today, so I

730

thought, there were something

like 400 people at this event.

731

I thought, I'm not gonna speak to 400

people, I'm gonna focus on the people.

732

And it's amazing when you go a bit

deeper, say, oh my goodness, we've got

733

this similar background, this da da,

oh, you've written a book about that.

734

Oh right.

735

Let me grab your book and da da.

736

And it's, it's amazing.

737

And, and I think that's a mistake

that we see a networking event.

738

I must meet 25 people and then

you can't manage the follow up

739

with 25 people I've met five,

740

no problem.

741

I can follow up with them.

742

John: Yeah.

743

So it is kind of meeting the

right people and and, and keeping

744

the connections going with them.

745

And that's one of, one

of the hardest things.

746

And, and, you, I'm sure you and I

will both agree that it's essential

747

for speakers to have a good, a good

CRMA good system of keeping in contact

748

and keeping in check with the people

who are potentially referring you or

749

booking you and, and whatever other

relationships you are you're making that

750

could be valuable to you along the way.

751

Maria Franzoni: yeah.

752

And so this is the probably my

strongest opinion about the business.

753

This is a business, and the thing

is, people think about speaking, oh,

754

it's getting on stage, it's art, it's

performance, it's it's education, it's

755

all, yes, it's all of those things, but

756

actually, fundamentally.

757

It's business.

758

And if the commercial piece is the piece

that, that most speakers don't want to

759

get involved with, unless they've come

from a business background, those are

760

the one wonderful speakers to work with.

761

'cause it's so easy, I don't

have to do any mindset shifts

762

or changes or, or hammering.

763

But if you don't treat it like a business,

you're gonna be one of those poor artists.

764

that you see, like there's amazing

geniuses who have, who have no one,

765

which is fine if that's what you would

look, if that's the aspiration, but most

766

people want to make money outta this.

767

And, and so that for me is there's not

enough focus on the commercial piece.

768

The associations I go to for speakers,

the events I go to speakers, very few of

769

them put enough emphasis on the business

side, especially on the selling side.

770

A lot of people love the marketing

because I don't have to really

771

actually talk to anyone or build a

relationship or do the, the difficult

772

bit of actually selling myself.

773

The selling piece is the piece

that's the most neglected and it's my

774

favorite.

775

John: which is, which is a good thing

for it to be because if it, if it's

776

not, if people have resistance to

that or, or they really just want to

777

do the speaking bit, and I've seen

this in the coaching industry as well.

778

I've been in coaching for years and years

and, and, I've seen coaches come and go

779

because they don't want to do the stuff

that will market and grow their business.

780

they just want to do the coaching.

781

I understand it.

782

but it's still a business.

783

And people don't think of these

businesses as, as a business.

784

They just think of it as,

this is me doing my craft.

785

If you build it, they

will come, kind of thing.

786

And it's like, no, not really.

787

Doesn't, doesn't really

tend to go that way.

788

But, but do you think, do you think

if you, even if you weren't the best

789

speaker, even if you didn't have all

the know, the craftsmanship of being an

790

excellent speaker, if you're doing the

practical stuff well of marketing and,

791

and, prospecting for your work, that you

will still do pretty well as a speaker.

792

Maria Franzoni: Yes, you the, the best

speakers, the best book speakers, the

793

best paid speakers are not the best

speakers on stage majority of the time.

794

They are the best business people.

795

They understand what it is to be bookable.

796

And I say it, I

797

talk about it in my book, and,

and actually opened an event, this

798

year and I was speaking and I said

The reason I'm here on stage as

799

the opening keynote is not because

I'm the best speaker in this room.

800

'cause there's a whole room of

speakers, way better than me.

801

It's 'cause I'm the best known

to the organizers on this topic.

802

John: Yeah.

803

Maria Franzoni: known

always beats the best.

804

John: Yeah.

805

mark, mark Schaefer was saying

something very similar when we chatted.

806

Yeah.

807

it's, it's, it's a, it's a, it is

a very, very worthwhile thing to

808

hear that, that probably many of us,

many of us need to hear, because I

809

think that's the same in coaching.

810

It's not always the best coaches

who are at the top in coaching.

811

it's the people who have treated it like

a business and done the stuff consistently

812

to make it work as a business.

813

Who, who will do best rather than

the people who hope that their

814

skill or artistry or whatever will

be enough to pull them through.

815

'cause I think there are times

perhaps where people do still get

816

discovered in these places and,

and, pulled in by agents, whatever.

817

But, but I think that's

much rarer these days.

818

Or I could, I could be wrong, but

I feel that that's kind of rare.

819

Most people probably

shouldn't expect that.

820

Maria Franzoni: I don't

have stats sadly, on that.

821

There may be some research on

that, but yeah, you, but often

822

the person who gets discovered has

already been doing it for 10 years.

823

Right.

824

And they're, and it's, it's not

like they're, it's an they're

825

not, there's no such thing as an

overnight success a lot of the time.

826

so Oh yeah, someone overnight success

after 30 years of doing this at home,

827

but, yeah, the discovered piece, I've

discovered speakers, which has been

828

fantastic, but I've also rejected

speakers who've been very good.

829

And, you know, because it's, if

they presented themselves wrongly,

830

it, it's, it's a very fine line.

831

would I have rejected the Beatles?

832

Possibly.

833

John: my, my, my aunt

rejected one of the Beatles.

834

She, she got asked out on a date by George

Harrison and rejected him, but she did.

835

Maria Franzoni: That's a good story.

836

Right?

837

John: It's great.

838

this, this is very interesting 'cause

one of the questions that, one of the

839

questions that I did ask Mark Schafer

in our chat was about whether there

840

is anything that would cause him to.

841

Ignore, or, ignore a speaker

immediately and just say, all right.

842

I wonder if you, you kind

of, alluded to that already.

843

What, what is the showing up wrong thing?

844

What's the thing that sort of

says, O no, let's, let's stay away

845

Maria Franzoni: Oh gosh.

846

There's a whole list.

847

Really.

848

You have to look.

849

A certain way.

850

I mean, there's a lot of people that you

think, In fact, I think I put this, I did

851

a post about this, about how you look,

if you look like you've just popped out

852

of the house for a latte, you haven't

even combed your hair and whatever.

853

I mean, there are people who just really,

really desperately need a stylist.

854

They don't know what they're doing.

855

you

856

have

857

John: be one of them.

858

Maria Franzoni: you

have to look successful.

859

You can have your own style, you can

have your own look, but you have to look

860

like somebody that I want to listen to.

861

I always want somebody to look, be the,

the best dressed in the room when they're

862

a speaker, whatever their style is.

863

It doesn't have to be a three

piece suit or anything like that.

864

so that's one thing.

865

But secondly, if I.

866

Turn off for me.

867

And this is a personal thing and lots of

people disagree with me now they will.

868

And I don't care.

869

This is my opinion.

870

I don't like bad language.

871

I don't like it in comedians very much.

872

He the Trevor, no, I loved him

because he didn't use a bad word.

873

He's his, his first act did his

support act, which I thought,

874

hang on, that's a bit odd.

875

But anyway, so I don't like bad language.

876

It's not necessary.

877

And if I see there was somebody

the other day that, that, wanted

878

to connect with me and had swear

words across all of their materials.

879

And I said, look, I'm happy to connect

with you, but I have got a problem

880

with this language and I don't want

to be on the receiving end of it.

881

And if this is who you are, we might

not be able to have a conversation.

882

'cause if that's, if you're

gonna be littering everything

883

with swear words, I don't.

884

I just, it's hard been brought up.

885

so that turns me off and

people just shouting opinions.

886

There seem to be a lot of speakers I'm

seeing, younger generation, I'm afraid.

887

Women I'm afraid, who

seem to be very shouty.

888

In style.

889

I don't like that.

890

That's me.

891

My

892

personal opinion, these would turn

me off if I still had my bureau.

893

If a client said to me, I really

want that person and they're sweary.

894

And they're shouty and I still have my

bureau, of course I'd negotiate the deal

895

for them 'cause that's what they want.

896

But it's stuff that that would, that

it's feels to me it's not necessary.

897

I think if you've got substance and depth

and you can deliver a strong message and

898

an outcome, you don't need to do that.

899

I often think people who are

doing that are compensating

900

for something, but that's my

901

opinion.

902

Right.

903

You get all my strong

opinions now, John, you.

904

John: it's, it's an interesting one.

905

And, and my mum would back you up on that.

906

She, she can't learn any,

any foul language at all.

907

And, she might have heard a few words

from me over the years, but, but

908

don't, I'm not sensitive to it, but

it's always, I don't use it very much.

909

I don't use profanity very much at all.

910

I don't use it much in my comedy.

911

I don't use it much in my podcast.

912

And, and to the point where I

guess who do, do like to swear

913

will usually ask me, is it okay?

914

And I was like, yeah, I don't mind.

915

But if my mom listens to the show,

she will be getting in touch with you.

916

That's all, that's just

all you need to know.

917

And, but, but I do take this a I like,

if you've come across a lady called

918

Judy Carter and Judy teaches comedy.

919

And she's probably one of the only

people who's really qualified to do it.

920

She's been a standup comedian.

921

She's trained comedians that most people

probably would've heard of and and she

922

will say a similar thing of like, write,

if you wanna swear, write your material

923

with all the swear words you want in

it, but take them out when you go and

924

deliver it, because it is one of those

things that can stop you as, even as a

925

comedian, can stop you from getting booked

in the comedy clubs in the open mics.

926

It's not so bad you can get away with

it, but if you want to get booked

927

for corporate comedy gigs and stuff

like that, you are not, it's not

928

gonna be tolerated the occasional.

929

Swear word might be tolerated, but

otherwise it could be something

930

that stops you getting booked.

931

And, and I think you're right that

a lot of people don't consider

932

really, they say, oh, that's me.

933

It's just I'm gonna show up.

934

And that's fine if you, if you're

just like, this is who I am.

935

You, you may know this person,

but I know a speaker who, is

936

a professional dominatrix.

937

Maria Franzoni: Yeah,

938

John: she left being a

dominatrix and she came back.

939

She's gone back to it.

940

And, and, and that's definitely something

that will stop her getting booked by a lot

941

of places who don't, who don't want that.

942

And other people who will love that

and think, yeah, that's fantastic.

943

So interesting.

944

that's the choice you make.

945

You, you can be, you can be that

person who's like, this is how I

946

am, this is how I'm gonna show up.

947

I'm not changing myself for anyone.

948

Or you say, I actually gonna, I

can tailor this to the market.

949

It's not such a big deal for me.

950

and I'd rather get booked than, be

able to swear every five seconds.

951

Yeah.

952

Maria Franzoni: Yeah, I mean I know that

Ricky Gervaise and Steven Fry say, if

953

people are offended, it's down to them.

954

I actually

955

disagree.

956

I think you should think

about your audience.

957

You should think about other people

and how the effect you have on them.

958

I don't think you should go around

not caring if you offend people.

959

I think we should be more empathetic

to people and understanding of them.

960

So actually I'm going to disagree

with two really big names.

961

So people are gonna be writing in.

962

John, you're complaining, you said at the

963

beginning, what are your opinions?

964

John: I hope they do.

965

I'm always interested to hear people's

takes on things like this because there,

966

there are so many different opinions.

967

am much more of a, for me,

the message is more important.

968

who I want to help and how I want to

help them is more important than me being

969

able to have full freedom of expression.

970

It's like, can express myself

in other places, in other ways.

971

It's like, here, it's more, for

me, it's more important that.

972

If I can change things so that more people

are gonna be able to relate and, and

973

benefit from something and not feel turned

off by it, I'm gonna do that because I

974

would rather, that's what I'm there for.

975

I'm not there for my ego.

976

I guess that's what I'm saying is

I'm not there to aggrandize myself.

977

I'm there because I want

to make a difference.

978

And so if there's some things in my

delivery that I can change that are

979

gonna help that I'm gonna do it.

980

Maria Franzoni: Yeah, totally agree.

981

We actually agree.

982

Fantastic.

983

John: That's good.

984

It's good.

985

it's like it's, I might still throw,

I might still throw in the occasional,

986

cuss word, but it, it's rare.

987

It's honestly rare.

988

Maria Franzoni: Di so Di so, yeah, I.

989

John: I'm, I'm, I've, like you said,

sometimes it's just how you brought up,

990

but I also think there is a degree to

which there are many people out there may

991

maybe like ourselves, who sort of think

if you, if you are swearing all the time

992

or it's part of your regular vocabulary.

993

That, you don't actually have a good

vocabulary or the swearing sort of

994

becomes meaningless or it's like

talking, talking to a bloke at the pub.

995

He just can't say everything.

996

Every effing and Jeff in everything.

997

It's, yeah, it's, it's a bit crass.

998

Here's something Maria that

you may have an opinion on.

999

'cause I heard you on a, on one of your

shows recently talking about demo videos

00:47:19,246 --> 00:47:23,406

and and I had a guest on a little while

back, you might come across him, Cam,

00:47:23,406 --> 00:47:26,656

Cam Boudouin, and, who's actually a

former speaker up student, which is how

00:47:26,656 --> 00:47:28,216

we know each, how we know each other.

00:47:28,996 --> 00:47:34,456

But Cam now teaches people how to do

their demo videos and, and I asked

00:47:34,456 --> 00:47:40,386

him whether it's better to have, no

demo video than a bad demo video.

00:47:40,686 --> 00:47:44,016

He, he was very clear on

better to have no video.

00:47:44,076 --> 00:47:45,276

I wonder what your thoughts on

00:47:45,351 --> 00:47:46,041

Maria Franzoni: totally.

00:47:46,071 --> 00:47:47,511

100% agree.

00:47:47,871 --> 00:47:49,221

A bad demo video.

00:47:49,611 --> 00:47:51,201

It's like having a bad speech.

00:47:51,531 --> 00:47:54,711

It's like going out and getting yourself

booked and it's a really bad speech.

00:47:54,771 --> 00:47:59,061

You, you, you've gotta have a

great speech and a great video

00:47:59,391 --> 00:48:01,101

and a great online presence.

00:48:01,851 --> 00:48:03,741

And that's, yeah, you

need all those three.

00:48:03,961 --> 00:48:04,771

so yeah,

00:48:06,746 --> 00:48:07,761

John: I was, I was curious.

00:48:07,761 --> 00:48:09,261

I was curious whether you

might still think now I just

00:48:09,261 --> 00:48:10,701

get some, some video up there.

00:48:11,061 --> 00:48:13,191

because, because one of the

things that you were saying in

00:48:13,191 --> 00:48:15,471

your, and this isn't trying to be

trying to call you out anything.

00:48:15,471 --> 00:48:17,991

It's just, maybe why I thought you might

have a different opinion is that you

00:48:17,991 --> 00:48:21,951

said that maybe just if you don't have

stuff, if you are on stage right now, do

00:48:21,951 --> 00:48:23,511

something that's a bit more to camera.

00:48:24,141 --> 00:48:27,951

That some people might see that

as being a bad dermo video, but

00:48:28,086 --> 00:48:30,276

Maria Franzoni: That's not a de

it's not a demo video though.

00:48:30,276 --> 00:48:30,936

It's not a demo

00:48:30,936 --> 00:48:31,926

video or a show reel.

00:48:31,926 --> 00:48:34,386

It's a piece to camera where

you are talking to camera.

00:48:34,386 --> 00:48:37,146

It's, I wouldn't call it a demo

video 'cause it's not, you're not

00:48:37,146 --> 00:48:38,766

demonstrating yourself on stage.

00:48:39,096 --> 00:48:42,876

You are just, you, you are just seeing,

okay, what does this person sound like?

00:48:42,876 --> 00:48:44,826

What are they actually

like as an individual?

00:48:44,986 --> 00:48:47,896

what's their English like, would it work

in front of an international audience?

00:48:47,896 --> 00:48:48,646

What's their pace?

00:48:48,646 --> 00:48:49,156

What's their turn?

00:48:49,606 --> 00:48:54,886

So I wouldn't call that a demo video,

so that's why I wouldn't call it a

00:48:54,886 --> 00:48:55,426

bad demo.

00:48:55,456 --> 00:48:56,656

'cause it is not a demo video.

00:48:56,836 --> 00:48:58,486

There's lots of different types of videos.

00:48:58,756 --> 00:49:01,966

So in, in the old days in the US

they used to call it a sizzle reel.

00:49:02,186 --> 00:49:03,956

so I often call it a show reel.

00:49:04,196 --> 00:49:07,556

A demo reel, is, it is a show reel and a

demo reel I think are probably the best

00:49:07,556 --> 00:49:12,626

words, but where you are showing yourself

on stages, delivering some content and

00:49:12,626 --> 00:49:14,756

speaking, and that has to be high quality.

00:49:15,656 --> 00:49:16,046

John: Yeah.

00:49:16,376 --> 00:49:18,776

That, and to me that, that makes

sense, especially if you want to get

00:49:18,776 --> 00:49:23,856

booked by people paying you, upwards of

5,000 pounds, dollars, euros, whatever

00:49:23,856 --> 00:49:26,891

for, for your events is, they're, if

they're paying quality, they should be

00:49:26,891 --> 00:49:30,171

receiving, quality and they're gonna,

they're going to be looking for that.

00:49:31,131 --> 00:49:34,881

There is some one place we might differ

a little bit, and I'll be curious

00:49:34,881 --> 00:49:37,576

to see this, but, but also heard you

mentioning something like, I have talked

00:49:37,576 --> 00:49:42,616

with clients about, about having their

whole talk available for bookers to be

00:49:42,616 --> 00:49:47,476

able to watch, because having spoken

to a number of people from agencies

00:49:47,476 --> 00:49:51,496

before, often they'll say now that

they want to be able to potentially

00:49:51,496 --> 00:49:55,386

watch or skip through somebody's whole

talk, to get a full sense of how the

00:49:55,386 --> 00:49:59,766

whole thing is rather than just the,

the highlight or the sizzle reel of it.

00:49:59,826 --> 00:50:03,306

And, and I, I've heard that

a lot over recent years and

00:50:03,336 --> 00:50:04,446

maybe you've heard the same.

00:50:04,866 --> 00:50:07,596

and I'll often say to people, well,

well, why not have that on your website?

00:50:07,596 --> 00:50:10,656

Who's no, people are really gonna

really checking out as a speaker

00:50:10,656 --> 00:50:11,796

if they're looking for a speaker.

00:50:12,166 --> 00:50:15,376

so I am not sure it's such a big deal,

but I think you had said something

00:50:15,376 --> 00:50:18,316

about just making it available rather

than having it on your website.

00:50:18,676 --> 00:50:20,116

Maria Franzoni: Yeah, I

wouldn't have it on the website.

00:50:20,116 --> 00:50:23,911

No, I'd probably, that, that, that's

sort of like a follow up conversation.

00:50:24,401 --> 00:50:24,756

I don't.

00:50:25,751 --> 00:50:29,081

I don't think it's a bad idea to have

clips, like, so you've got your demo reel,

00:50:29,081 --> 00:50:31,661

but maybe you might have a 10 minute,

if you've got three speeches, you might

00:50:31,661 --> 00:50:35,801

have a 10 minute clip from each speech

on your website against the, but the full

00:50:35,801 --> 00:50:39,821

speech, I probably wouldn't have the whole

lot on the website, easily available.

00:50:40,001 --> 00:50:42,821

I'd have it as a private listing

that I would share with somebody

00:50:42,821 --> 00:50:44,501

who's asked for it specifically.

00:50:44,871 --> 00:50:49,221

but that's just how I do it, because

for me, I wanna have a conversation.

00:50:49,401 --> 00:50:51,651

So when I was booking, I wanna have a

conversation, I wanna have a relationship.

00:50:51,651 --> 00:50:53,871

I want the client to actually be

asking, what is it that you're

00:50:53,871 --> 00:50:55,071

looking for in that full speech?

00:50:55,071 --> 00:50:56,991

What is it that you need to

see that's not in the show?

00:50:56,991 --> 00:50:59,271

Whether that's not in the 10, do

you know what, I'm not sure this

00:50:59,271 --> 00:51:00,351

is the right person actually.

00:51:00,351 --> 00:51:01,701

After all, maybe we should be looking.

00:51:01,851 --> 00:51:02,236

Do you know what I mean?

00:51:02,451 --> 00:51:04,911

I need to understand what their need is.

00:51:05,091 --> 00:51:06,441

What, what is it that

you're not clear about?

00:51:06,441 --> 00:51:10,341

What are you missing from these, from the

whole website that you've not got clarity

00:51:10,341 --> 00:51:11,721

on, oh, well I'm not clear on this.

00:51:11,721 --> 00:51:15,021

This is, okay, well actually this

person doesn't do that, doesn't

00:51:15,021 --> 00:51:16,191

deliver that, and you won't get this.

00:51:16,191 --> 00:51:17,301

Or, yes, that person does.

00:51:17,601 --> 00:51:19,521

Very happy to give you the whole video.

00:51:19,956 --> 00:51:21,381

I, I want a conversation.

00:51:21,381 --> 00:51:23,241

Otherwise, it's just

like, you might as well.

00:51:24,186 --> 00:51:27,206

Just, it becomes a transaction

and not a relationship.

00:51:27,446 --> 00:51:30,356

And these bookings

should be relationships.

00:51:30,386 --> 00:51:30,981

They shouldn't be

00:51:30,981 --> 00:51:31,661

transactions.

00:51:32,696 --> 00:51:32,996

John: Yeah.

00:51:33,456 --> 00:51:37,476

heard, I heard you and, and James talking

on the speakers you podcast recently

00:51:37,476 --> 00:51:42,976

about, about this and, and, and James

also talking about, plagiarizing pe

00:51:43,036 --> 00:51:47,026

people who plagiarize other people's talks

and that he's experienced that himself.

00:51:47,366 --> 00:51:48,476

and I've seen it happen.

00:51:48,476 --> 00:51:49,916

I've seen it happen in the industry.

00:51:49,916 --> 00:51:56,016

But, do you, do you have any sense of how,

how common that is in, in the industry?

00:51:56,571 --> 00:51:58,191

Maria Franzoni: Sadly, I

think it is very common.

00:51:58,191 --> 00:51:58,911

I've got, I've got no

00:51:58,911 --> 00:52:00,201

numbers, no stats again.

00:52:00,231 --> 00:52:04,731

but probably if you, if we were to do

a post, going out with this and saying,

00:52:04,731 --> 00:52:06,261

how many of you have experienced you?

00:52:06,261 --> 00:52:09,351

Just, you, you've been, you

quoted, it's happened to me.

00:52:09,601 --> 00:52:11,931

know the individuals who are

doing it, and then I know what

00:52:11,931 --> 00:52:13,521

the, and I can see my content.

00:52:13,931 --> 00:52:17,321

and and there's two things, it's

like James is quite relaxed about

00:52:17,321 --> 00:52:20,081

it, and I'm quite relaxed about

it too, because I know that.

00:52:20,591 --> 00:52:23,501

People haven't got the same

experience and expertise as I've got.

00:52:23,531 --> 00:52:24,731

They can't do what I do.

00:52:25,391 --> 00:52:27,131

They can't do what I do

because they're not me.

00:52:27,231 --> 00:52:28,461

and I can't do what they do.

00:52:28,911 --> 00:52:32,241

I wish they would go and do what they

do better rather than trying to be

00:52:32,241 --> 00:52:32,781

me.

00:52:33,231 --> 00:52:34,521

But that's another subject.

00:52:34,671 --> 00:52:34,941

Yeah.

00:52:34,941 --> 00:52:37,431

So I think there's a lot of it

about, and and think it's fine

00:52:37,431 --> 00:52:42,141

if you are then crediting it to

somebody and saying, so and so said

00:52:42,141 --> 00:52:44,151

this, or, I'm so and so shared this.

00:52:44,151 --> 00:52:48,081

And often quote David Newman, for example,

often quote him, 'cause love his stuff.

00:52:48,081 --> 00:52:51,231

I've got all of his books and his

latest book, I'm now quoting his

00:52:51,231 --> 00:52:53,481

latest book because the man's a genius.

00:52:53,701 --> 00:52:57,501

and I quote Mark Schaefer, but say

that I'm quoting their stuff, but Yeah,

00:52:57,501 --> 00:53:00,201

I sadly, sadly, John,

there is quite a lot of it.

00:53:00,201 --> 00:53:03,291

And sometimes people do it without

realizing that it belongs to somebody

00:53:03,456 --> 00:53:03,906

John: of course.

00:53:03,906 --> 00:53:04,746

Yeah, of course.

00:53:04,796 --> 00:53:07,796

but am I right in, think I heard

you say one time that it's one of

00:53:07,796 --> 00:53:09,266

the reasons why you wrote your book,

00:53:09,311 --> 00:53:10,091

Maria Franzoni: It is, yeah.

00:53:10,661 --> 00:53:11,801

Yeah, it is.

00:53:12,251 --> 00:53:12,821

Because I've

00:53:12,866 --> 00:53:16,706

John: you had your IP in that one place

then, and it's like, this is my stuff.

00:53:16,736 --> 00:53:17,036

It's in

00:53:17,061 --> 00:53:19,076

Maria Franzoni: Yeah, well people

were quoting my case studies as

00:53:19,076 --> 00:53:22,476

their own, the work that I'd done and

worked with speakers as their own.

00:53:22,896 --> 00:53:30,336

it's still happening, but I've

got it in print, so it's mine.

00:53:32,436 --> 00:53:36,246

John: Well, guess from, from, from,

from my perspective, it is just hard

00:53:36,251 --> 00:53:38,796

and, and maybe you finish this as

well, it's just hard to believe people

00:53:38,796 --> 00:53:42,996

would even want to do that or that

want not want to have their own stuff.

00:53:42,996 --> 00:53:47,436

It's like, most speakers I ever work

with struggle with imposter syndrome,

00:53:47,766 --> 00:53:49,476

but there's real imposters out there.

00:53:49,476 --> 00:53:49,626

It

00:53:49,686 --> 00:53:50,676

Maria Franzoni: There are really impo.

00:53:50,676 --> 00:53:51,006

Yeah.

00:53:51,006 --> 00:53:55,426

in the words of jazz, amper fav, because

I'm gonna quote her, she says, it isn't

00:53:55,426 --> 00:53:57,676

imposter syndrome if you are an imposter.

00:53:58,981 --> 00:53:59,201

John: fry.

00:54:00,616 --> 00:54:00,916

Maria Franzoni: she was

00:54:00,916 --> 00:54:04,366

actually saying it about herself when

she was having a nervous, nervous

00:54:04,366 --> 00:54:05,836

reaction to going onto a stage.

00:54:05,836 --> 00:54:07,456

And it was like, oh my God, I'm panicking.

00:54:07,836 --> 00:54:11,236

and, but actually I think it works to,

to, to reference it to other people.

00:54:11,236 --> 00:54:13,426

I think it's a brilliant, brilliant quote.

00:54:13,426 --> 00:54:14,056

I love that.

00:54:15,731 --> 00:54:19,251

John: if, if I may, Marie, there's

one, one thing I'd like to get on.

00:54:19,311 --> 00:54:23,571

Final thing I'd like to get onto

with you, about podcasts that as a

00:54:23,571 --> 00:54:28,541

speaker and as someone who has, a

podcast and is, a co-host on another

00:54:28,541 --> 00:54:35,981

podcast, how valuable is podcasting for

speakers and, and, and getting booked?

00:54:35,981 --> 00:54:40,631

Is, is it something you think people

should be utilizing and incorporating

00:54:40,631 --> 00:54:44,771

or it something that's maybe more,

a bit more negligible for speakers?

00:54:44,996 --> 00:54:47,936

Maria Franzoni: So running

your own podcast is hard work.

00:54:47,966 --> 00:54:48,506

this.

00:54:48,566 --> 00:54:50,486

It's a lot of work and it's

hard work, especially to be

00:54:50,486 --> 00:54:51,626

consistent can keep showing up.

00:54:51,956 --> 00:54:53,876

Guesting on a podcast is a lot easier.

00:54:53,876 --> 00:54:54,896

Thank you so much.

00:54:54,896 --> 00:54:55,286

Thank you.

00:54:55,286 --> 00:54:56,096