In this inspiring guest episode of Counselor Chat, Carey Hughes and Rachel Haglin take the mic to share how a simple shift in mindset — and one powerful administrative conference — led to real advocacy and real results.

They didn’t just talk about change. They led it. And it’s already transforming their district.

🔑 In this episode, you’ll learn:

• Why “It’s a program, not a position” is more than a mantra — it’s a movement
• How Carey and Rachel used the ASCA Annual Administrative Conference to align with school goals
• What happened when they presented data and needs directly to district leadership
• The behind-the-scenes story of becoming lead counselors — and how it started with a letter
• What to do when advocacy doesn’t work right away (hint: it’s a marathon, not a sprint)

This episode is your reminder that small steps — when led with heart, data, and courage — can lead to powerful, lasting change.

Mentioned in this episode:

Perks Membership

Carol: You're listening to the Counselor Chat podcast, a show for school counselors looking for easy to implement strategies, how to tips, collaboration, and a little spark of joy.

I'm Carol Miller, your host. I'm a full time school counselor and the face behind counseling essentials. I'm all about creating simplified systems, data driven practices, and using creative approaches to engage students.

If you're looking for a little inspiration to help help you make a big impact on student growth and success, you're in the right place because we're better together.

Ready to chat?

Let's dive in.

Carey: My name is Carrie Hughes and I'm taking over this podcast today for Carol.

I'm with my friend, Rachel Haglin.

I'm so glad you're here,

actually,

we're so glad you're here.

Rachel: We are.

Carey: And I'm an elementary school counselor in the Kansas City area and I prefer costumes over puppets any day. And this is my friend.

Rachel: I'm Rachel Haglin and I am a 9th grade counselor in the Kansas City area.

Carey: And together we work as lead counselors for our school district.

And we're here today to tell you a little bit about our advocacy story.

So we're talking today about how school counseling is a program,

not a position,

and what that mind shift really means.

And then we're going to dive into the ASK an annual administrative conference and how it is really helpful.

And then finally we're going to talk about advocacy and when it works, when it doesn't, and how we pivot.

Rachel: Yes.

Carey: So let's start off with talking about program, not a position.

Yeah,

that was something that I learned in grad school.

I think it was kind of drilled into us.

And then I came to my current district and Rachel and I were talking and we both love professional development and we were at a conference and she told me that she hadn't been at a conference for a while.

And so she has a story behind it and it's about her, what she thought her role was. Why don't you tell that story? Sure, sure.

Rachel: This is my 29th year as a school counselor and I always really thought, I'm a good school counselor. I'm a really good school counselor. And really I thought that was kind of what I was supposed to do.

That's. I just thought I'm just supposed to be a really good school counselor.

Carey: And you are a good school counselor.

Rachel: Thank you.

And then I went to actually the ASKA at Home conference. That was the first kind of big conference,

2020, because they couldn't have it in person. And so it was cheaper. And so I thought, oh, I'm going to go do this. I've never done a conference for ASCA before and I've always wanted to.

And what I really learned during that conference is that it is not about the counselor.

It is about the program that the counselor creates utilizing the national model and manages and manages and leads. And I learned so much about that. Counselors. Well, we'll talk all about what I learned, but just all about how counselors are leaders, counselors work on their program.

And it's not about, oh, I need to be a good counselor. It's I really want to have an excellent counseling program.

Because when I have an excellence counseling program, that is when my students succeed.

Carey: Well, but how do you know if it is successful? How do you know if it's a good counseling program? Right.

Rachel: So that's one of the other things that I've really learned with all of the PD that I've gone to with ASCA and with Missouri, because Missouri does a wonderful job with their conferences as well.

Carey: They do.

Rachel: And so.

And also the Evidence Based School Counseling Conference. So all of those things.

So much of it is about data collecting. Data collecting. Collecting, yes, data. And how,

how that. How we can see how students are doing by collecting it. Well.

Carey: Cause it tells a story.

Rachel: It does. Oh, the. One of the things that I learned at one of the conferences is that data equals people.

Because sometimes people are like, oh, data is just numbers. Actually, data equals people. So when you're looking at data, you're looking at how our amazing humans who we're working with are doing.

Carey: That's right.

That's right. My current position as an elementary counselor is my first position where I'm the only counselor in the building. And so it was me and it was my. When I got this position,

it was my job to run this program.

And I was like, I do not want people to think I sit behind my desk waiting for students to come in.

And I feel like that is what a lot of people think.

And with our job being so confidential,

like we can't tell the whole story.

So that's why data works, because people don't know that those numbers, like they, they're people, but we're not telling names and we're not telling all that confidential piece, but we're showing what we do and how it's makes a difference.

Rachel: Yes.

Carey: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So it is completely a program,

but like, where do you start if you're new and you don't know if you're the only. How do you know what to do?

Rachel: Well,

you helped a lot in coming to our district and kind of showing me some resources. So that was wonderful. And one of the things that we did at the high school that where I work and there's four counselors in the high school where I work,

and we started utilizing, there's a Missouri program that says, this is a model program for Missouri, which aligns with the ASCA model program.

And I think that a lot of states have programs in place as well that you can look to your state organization and find information there. But also, of course,

looking at the ASCA National Model is a great way to start as well. It can be a little overwhelming, which is why it's nice to have someone who knows about the program to talk you through it and help you as you're going along.

Both yours and my school were ramped,

so we worked really, really hard on those programs.

We did.

Carey: And,

you know, honestly, I was just looking at the annual administrative conference because that was something in grad school that was really drilled into me to utilize.

And when I was a middle school counselor, I was on a team of counselors and in a really large district. And we didn't do the administrative conference in my building.

We didn't have an advisory council,

because, like, we had an advisory council for all. All our buildings for the counselors.

And. But I kind of knew I wasn't using the resources that I had.

And I was nervous about doing this conference because I was like,

but you know what? It's so laid out for you.

I think my biggest thing, I work by deadlines, and I work by,

you give me a worksheet, you give me a structure, and I can do it. I will.

I will meet that task.

And so the admin conference, if you go to the Ask A forms,

you have to put in there,

talk about your data summary. So you have to do some data collection beforehand.

You might have to ask people to help you with it. Then you have to create your goals, your counseling goals,

or at least like, a rough draft of them, because it is a conference.

And I know when I went into it, and actually, every time I go into it, I'm like, I was thinking of this, but I need a little help.

What do you think as a building we want to do?

And so it helps you create those goals.

It also goes over your use of time, which is like,

people don't know what we do unless we tell them what we do. And so that's a really great piece right there.

Then how you split your caseload.

So if you are on a team of counselors, this is where you explain. This is how we split it so that everybody's aware. And then you talk about program implementation.

You talk about your calendar and everything that's on there.

You have some action plans from the data that you collected.

And then you also talk. You set dates for the advisory council meetings, which can be really daunting because I knew, like, oh, my gosh, I have to have an advisory council like other adults listening to me.

I'm fine with kids, but gosh, adults.

But honestly, it was kind of fun creating that list of who to invite.

And.

And then you also tell them about your professional development. This is where you can talk about budget, too.

I really would like to go to this and this and this.

And that's where you and your principal kind of get on the same page with how important it is to keep up,

especially with our legal and ethical constraints.

So.

And then you just have your availability,

which that's very useful if you're a traveler.

So if you're going from building to building to make sure that your principal knows exactly when you're going to be in his or her building and then any other roles that you play within that district.

So it really is like you have to get your stuff together to put this together. You do.

Rachel: And luckily, you have the first two months of school to do it.

Carey: So you don't have to do it.

Rachel: August 20th, you know, I mean, you can, but you have the first two months of school to get it all together to.

Carey: If you're going to ramp.

Rachel: Yes.

Carey: But if you're not going to ramp, like, you don't have that time constraint.

Cause I've told people, if it's December and you haven't done it and you want to do it, go for it. Absolutely. Just get started.

And maybe you don't even fill the whole thing out.

Maybe you just do part of it and gradually. Okay, we did that this year. Next year we're going to add another piece.

Rachel: Love that. Yeah.

Carey: Because it can be overwhelming.

Rachel: I really love in the administrative conference as well,

aligning, seeing how the counseling goals that we have talked about, how do they align with the goals of the school and making sure that they do,

you know, align with the school.

And then I think also it honestly goes back to the counseling counselor being a pro, counseling being a program, not a position in that after doing the annual administrative conference,

we say, these are the goals that we have. We make sure that we align with the goals of the School.

And then instead of it being,

oh, this is counselor time,

because a lot of times in schools I've been in, in the past, they've said, oh, okay, your counselors want to talk about something, and then they just kind of step off.

But now this is a school wide goal that, that everyone is on board with that, people that your principal will support because you've already had these great conversations at the beginning of the year.

So.

Carey: So I have a question.

Rachel: Yeah.

Carey: So you have your conference with your principal. Do you have anything for your staff at the beginning of the year?

Rachel: Yeah. Yes.

Carey: Training them on this program.

Rachel: And that kind of.

In fact, I, I had,

I wanted to visit about that, about the program as well, because we do talk with our staff about what our program is again,

so that it's not that every time we kind of get in front of them, they say, oh, this is a counselor thing. It's like, oh, this is a school thing.

And the first time we did that, we did a minty meter where we asked the staff,

what do you think we do?

And it was just interesting for secondary a lot. I mean, a lot of it was scheduling or risk assessment,

like that type of thing. And so it was really fun to be able to like go through the aspects of our program and then like especially and then get them on board with our goals as well and so that we can all work together collaboratively on it.

How about you in the elementary world? What does that look like?

Carey: Well, the first year that I came here, I did not present because it was Covid year and they had me presenting on Covid kind of stuff.

Rachel: Sure.

Carey: But then it was National School Counseling Week and in February,

and I was like, oh, gosh, I need to do something. What am I going to do? And the counselor before me told me that she gave the staff a quiz.

And so I did the same. And I just made it like 10 questions. I made like five personal so they get to know me and then like five about the program.

And it was interesting because like, I put. One of them was like,

what are roles of the school counselor? And I put 504s on there and I put testing on there.

And I put classroom lessons.

And you would not believe how many people said 504s and testing. Almost everyone.

And so that gave me a lot of data to work with.

And then that's when I asked my principal at the beginning of the year, can I speak to the staff before, on those days before school starts?

And so I do a presentation now every year just like and you know, I feel like they've heard it before, but then we always get new people and I think we have to be.

I think Character Strong is the one that says we have to be reminded more than taught.

So like they just need that reminder of what we really do and that we're a program and that my schedule is full. Like I, I'm not just sitting in my office waiting.

Rachel: I just saw your summer school schedule and it is completely filled up in your day for sure.

Carey: Yes.

So and I think that really helps because I did the quiz the next year and like one person put down those non counseling duties, but the rest of them did not.

And now I've taken it off the question.

So, you know, like I've really noticed some growth.

And when the people in your building know what you're doing and know that you can help them and that you're available for them,

you might have to be scheduled,

but you are available,

they start using you when they start building that trust.

Yeah.

Rachel: And you have amazing relationships with people in your building. And I think that what you do at the beginning and how you set that stage really, really helped with the relationships that you have.

I wanted to say one more thing about the annual administrative conference before we go to advocacy. Advocacy, which we kind of already started talking about.

I told you that I've been in education for 29 years. That means I've been through a lot of principles.

Carey: Yeah.

Rachel: So because they moved to bigger, better things or they moved to different districts, that type of thing.

And I happen to have a new principal coming this year.

And so we're really looking forward to doing this with our new principal this year to really just let that person know, hey, this is what we're doing. This is our data that, that of what happened last year.

This is where we're at, this is where we want to be. How does, how does this align with what you want and really start that great collaborative relationship with that person.

Carey: So I think it's really good when you have somebody new. I think it is really,

really helpful because you don't know what they're coming in with. You don't know what their knowledge base is.

And last year in elementary, we had, almost every elementary school in our district had a new principal.

And I pushed really hard for all the counselors to do this. I was like,

this is really good stuff.

And actually we learned from each other. Some of us had done it, some of us had not.

And then we talked about how does that conversation continue?

Because I was used to my first principal here. I just popped in whenever I had news for questions, and we just had that kind of give, take, but not scheduled relationship.

And then I got a new principal,

and I heard from some of the other counselors, like you. You schedule.

You schedule time with the principal every week.

And so we talk every other week.

And like, that makes a difference. And then we have an agenda that we can go back to, and you can see the conversations that we've had. And it. I think it really helps build that knowledge base for both of us.

Rachel: Yeah. Because then we get to see what they do and what they need from us as well. And it really does. It's a give and take relationship.

Carey: Absolutely.

Rachel: I mentioned advocacy, and I wanted to say this about Carrie.

and I think I had always been a little bit scared to say.

To speak up and say what a counselor does,

especially to my superiors.

And Carrie modeled for me and the rest of us in the very first week that we all met.

Carey: She's gonna make me cry.

Rachel: She modeled what it looks like to respectfully,

intelligently say,

this is what a school counselor does in a way that is teaching, but not in a way that is like, you don't know what you're talking about. And I have learned so much.

Carey: I did that.

Rachel: You did. And I don't even remember what the particular thing we were talking about. I just said, oh, my gosh, she just said that to an administrator. And. But it wasn't.

But it was so respectful. It was so. It was just like, I would put you as on a. As someone to ask always, how do you. How do I say this about what we do and, And.

And our programs?

Carey: So you didn't know I did that.

Rachel: You did. You did. So advocacy. I started learning right away from Carrie right when. Right when you first meeting.

Carey: I met you so well, and I've learned so much from you.

And I do think, like, what I feel. Our biggest push and advocacy from our district,

it came from the annual administrative conference that I had with my principal.

We had been talking five in our district. We do 504s. We're the case managers, and we are also the testing coordinators.

Net at the elementary level. It's not for all of the testing, but it's for the standardized testing.

And it's like, I always feel like I can't be a counselor, like the last month of school because I'm really a testing coordinator. And so that's. That's my role.

And so I went through the annual administrative conference with my Principal, probably the second year I was here maybe,

and I just.

When I got to the part about your time, your use of time.

And so I did have some non counseling duty percentage.

And it was,

I don't know, like 7 or 8%, but it was a chunk.

And I had just said,

she asked me, she said, well, what gets in the way of that being a hundred percent?

And I said, well, it's 504s and the testing coordination just, it's a lot of time spent like the 504s. I am happy to advocate for my 504 students,

and I think I need to be a part of that team.

But I Spending all the time on the administrative parts of it, like scheduling the meeting,

finding out a time,

like taking all the notes at the meeting and you know, making. Sending out the 504 to all the participants, like, it ends up taking a lot of time away from my other students.

And so when I spend four hours on one student's 504, that takes me away from my other 360 kids.

And so she said,

well, I would suggest that you write a letter. Like start with a letter. And she told me who to send it to. One of our assistant superintendents. And she said, just draft a letter.

And I think that would be a good starting place.

And so I talked to Rachel about it because we're friends. And I was like, let's, let's do this letter. So we started the letter and then I don't know what happened, but we were like,

well, maybe this shouldn't be a letter. Maybe this should be a presentation.

And we typically as counselors, we meet once a month and we had meetings, and they were just from one to three,

I think in the afternoon, once a month.

And these two assistant superintendents were in charge of the meetings.

We always, like had a big segment on 504s.

And so we kind of talked like, why don't we start with them and just present as counselors,

like what our program is and explain everything.

So it ended up being a much bigger thing than a letter. And it was probably,

you think, five,

three or,

I don't know, four or five months.

Rachel: It was months. And it was collaborative with all of the counselors in the district. It turned into a really.

It was the very first time in our district that I had been here that we did have that collaboration where we all started to gather data and started to say,

what? What is it? That.

What is it? That is what are. There are barriers to implementing, fully implementing our programs.

Carey: Yeah.

And I remember we even had. We had a counselor who is not a school counselor.

And she is probably. I think she's a social worker, actually, but she works as a counselor in one of our buildings, not as a school counselor. She's a little different.

But she always asks, like, is this gonna be pertinent to me?

And she asked me, and I said, well, like, it's about school counselors,

so it isn't,

like, directly what you do.

And she said,

well, I think I'm gonna come because I'm gonna.

I really don't know.

And she came and she just listened to us work.

Rachel: She did.

Carey: Like,

I mean, that was kind of crazy, now that I think about it, but she just listened to us work,

and she's like, wow, I'm learning so much.

And so then we took that presentation and we presented to our leaders.

And.

And it was kind of. At first, we were forgotten. We were not on the agenda.

And I was like, oh, my gosh.

Rachel: Yeah, we worked so hard.

Carey: Yeah. But they were like, oh, yes, definitely. And so we did our presentation, and when we were through, like, one of them was just writing copiously.

Rachel: Yes.

Carey: And we got done. And she said,

I. I remember this part. She said,

well,

if we go by what you just told us,

we need to hire five new counselors.

And we were like, oh, my God.

Rachel: Okay.

Carey: So. And they told us that they knew this.

They knew that 504s and testing were barriers.

And they said, this isn't new information.

That part.

But they said, what you put together,

we've never seen before.

Rachel: Yeah.

Carey: Yeah.

Rachel: And they'd heard it, but they've never seen it with the data. And that made such a huge difference to them.

Carey: Yeah. And they told us they were proud of us.

Rachel: Yeah.

Carey: Like, it was a feel good.

Rachel: It was.

Carey: It was a feel good day.

Rachel: It was.

Carey: And it led to.

Rachel: It led to the leaders saying, you know,

I think that you all know about your programs a lot more than we do.

We. We are. We want to help guide and lead for sure.

But we think we'd like you. You all to be.

Carey: Yeah, they said we were the experts.

Rachel: Yeah, you're the experts.

So they said, what do you. What do you think about being lead counselors? And so that's how Carrie and I got to be lead counselors for elementary and. And secondary, too.

And that. That was a huge shift in our district as far as much more relevant PD and.

Carey: Yeah.

Rachel: Monthly. So that was really nice too.

Carey: So, yeah, we just, like, raised our hand for more work.

Rachel: We did, we did.

Carey: We Did. But so now our meetings are. Went from like a two hour meeting that was probably 30% 504 plan.

And it went from that to.

Well, elementary counselors meet all day on our monthly day just because we're islands and we don't get a chance to collaborate as much.

And Rachel and I make the agendas and we've like been able to. Elementary for the first time ever, was able to come up with like a schedule for our lessons.

We had been asked to do that, but we never had the time. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rachel: And we had never as school counselors, we had never presented to the board about our program before. It had always been presented by district leadership. And we were asked to present about the.

The whole K12 program to the board. So that was amazing as well to get to start to do that too.

Carey: And you know, I think that also opened the door because they asked us to do that. I know. Then they asked like the librarians to do it.

Rachel: Oh, good. So.

Carey: So starting a good train, not just was this benefiting us,

but it also benefited some other groups. Yeah, yeah. So.

And I think advocacy can be like you push, push, push,

and then sometimes you don't get.

We're still working on those barriers to.

Rachel: We are. We still do 504s and we still do testing.

I think I thought because I had been to so such great PD from some amazing school counselors with amazing school counselors counseling programs. And they said this is what we did and it.

And this is how it worked.

So I thought that Carrie and I would go in and we would do the same type of thing and then it would work.

Carey: And. And it's not that it didn't work.

Rachel: It's not that it didn't work because you. We just heard the amazing progress that we made through it.

What I realized and I think Carrie and I both realized, I think I thought it was a one and done thing.

Like, look at this. And okay, here it's fixed.

And that's not. That's not how it. How it's worked in our experience.

So I think what we've learned is how to.

That it's a marathon, not a sprint. Yeah, marathon, not a sprint. Like keep, keep going, keep moving forward.

And also I think what one of the things that I've learned is to really,

that I really need to work on keeping those. Even if I don't get what I'm advocating for, I need to really work to keep those relationships positive so that in the future I can still advocate and hopefully it can work out.

I. I think I've also learned, like just getting data for one year is not enough that I need to.

That as a district leader and as a leader of my program, like, we need to gather data consistently.

And going back to how Carrie advocates, like, how can I effectively,

intelligently,

respectfully advocate.

Carey: Yeah,

because I think you have it. It's like such a touchy thing, like, to advocate. You're standing up for your program.

And it's not that we don't want to help.

What is Jeff Heckman, our friend from Missouri, what does he say?

He's.

Rachel: It's just bringing other people in.

Carey: Bringing other people in.

Rachel: Bring other people in. Not say, I'm not going to do this, but how can we bring other people in to help with these tasks? That might not be school counseling,

but they might not be admin either. They're. They're like 504.

Carey: They're in the gray area.

Rachel: They are.

Carey: Yeah.

Rachel: Yeah.

Carey: Well, and I think that's another win is that at least at your level, at the high school level, you don't schedule those 504 meetings anymore.

Rachel: That's true. Our secretaries do. Which is amazing.

Carey: Yeah. Yeah. Which is super helpful.

And I know at the elementary level, one of the counselors, her principal takes all the notes and does the. Fills out the paperwork,

which is helpful.

Yes.

I think it's important. You never want to just say, no, I can't do this, or no, this is a non counseling job. That's not helpful. Right.

But who can help me and how can I show them all the things that I am already doing? How can I show them how students are different because of our counseling program?

Like, I think it just.

Rachel: It.

Carey: You just gotta keep at it.

Rachel: Yep.

Carey: Well, thank you for listening to us. Like, we hope that you take some of the nuggets that we shared with you if you're not,

if you're not working with a comprehensive program. We hope that maybe you found one thing that might help you move closer and closer to that comprehensive program. Because we know that kids are better, students are better because of the work that we do.

And that takes a village.

Rachel: It sure does.

Carey: It sure does. So thank you and Carol, we're just so grateful that we got to come chat. Thank you on Counselor Chat and have an amazing summer. Yes.

Carol: Thanks for listening to today's episode of Counselor Chat. All of the links I talked about can be found in the show notes and at counselingessentials.org podcast.

Be sure to hit follow or subscribe or on your favorite podcast player. And if you would be so kind to leave a review. I'd really appreciate it.

Want to connect? Send me a DM on Facebook or Instagram at Counseling Essentials until next time. Can't wait till we chat.

Bye for now.