This week we speak with Dan Cumberland, the CEO of UpsideBuilders and Host of The Meaning Movement to talk about how we can get more out of a career change. Dan is on a mission to 'shake people awake' when it comes to their careers and what they want to do with their lives. There is a common misconception that your career is where your purpose is found when in fact, what you do for work is simply an opportunity to flex the muscles of what makes you happy, what fulfills you. 

Time Stamps:

4:00: Dan realized that the youth ministry wasn't for him

7:49: What are the voices that are misguiding

12:03: What is your working definition of calling

19:11: So how does that fit into your framework and how you think about callings

29:50: I don't think failure is necessary, but I but it's, there's usually that inciting incident and to use that language again, that's like something that pushes us over the edge.

36:57: I am extremely relational and emotional

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Welcome to the big self podcast. I'm your host, Chad Prevost. And this week, we're excited to introduce you to Dan Cumberland, the CEO of upside builders and host of the meaning movement, to talk about how we can get more out of a career change. Dan is on a mission to shake people awake, when it comes to their career and what they want to do with their lives. There is a common misconception that your career is where your purpose is found, when in fact that you do for work is simply an opportunity to flex the muscles of what makes you happy and fulfills you.

So I Dan, I want to say this, I found you and your work. Oh, my goodness, it's been a few years now. Yeah, the meaning movement. So I was googling around. Gosh, I can't remember what I googled, but you popped up. And that was and I've always been really intrigued with the capacity to build a meaningful life and like, what are the conditions that we need to be intentional about? And so in doing some research and thinking around that, I found your stuff, and I've listened to your podcast. So I'm just really excited to have you on and get to have this conversation with you.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, of course. So we are, yeah, I think we're both we share a value system around this work, that I think is just really critical for people. So So why don't you? Let's kick it off. And why don't you if you could tell us a little bit about your story, just kind of where, where you came from how you got to this work, how you chose this work, and so people can get to know you a little bit.

I thought that I was called to be a youth pastor. And that's a call with a capital C, and got into that work, and it didn't fit. And the question that I was asking then was, you know, why can't Why can't I make this work? Because when you're, if you're called with a capital C, like that, the problem can't be the calling the problems got to be me making the calling work. And that took me a long time to parse out and figure out that it's, no, maybe maybe that wasn't God calling me and maybe there was someone something or some other reason that got me into this. There was a very poignant moment in that process when I was. So I mean, just, I don't want to gloss over any of this, because it's really important. But that led to depression led to just just anxiety like breakdowns before you leave your youth group and things like that. And so lots of tension, and was seeking seeking help. Got into therapy, which was really helpful, started going down your leadership retreats, and things like that, on one of those retreats. In particular, the man who's leaving it had us map out like the last year of our lives, and major kind of moments can tell love that story. For reflection from this small group of people that were gathered there, and I went and presented my, my stuff, my jumbled mess of like, all this stuff, not really, with the attention of like, bringing the question of what am I What am I doing with my life, but it became very clear, I think, to the people listening and, and there was like, the silence after I kind of finished, you know, like three or four minutes, or however long it was presenting. That wasn't, that wasn't god, it's actually my youth pastor, my youth pastor, when I was growing up, really emphasize that ministry is the best thing you could do with your life. And that was part of his value system. And he had great intentions and was a really positive influence on my life in many ways, but didn't leave a lot of space for other imagination, you know, around what's a good use of my gifts and who I am. So one thing led to another and eventually, you know, I got to the point where I realized I needed to move beyond the adventure, but I didn't know what to do. So I started looking around, trying to figure it out and decided to you know, I did have a lot of energy, it was pointed out by that same that same manner that that that retrieved that leadership coach, as well as other people in my life that I get a lot of energy around these questions of, like, what do we what do we do with our lives? I thought it was just because I was stuck there and wanted to, you know, needed to figure it out for myself and so I didn't have any other leads to follow. So it's just that okay, what if I just follow that lead? What if I just pull on this thread see what see where it goes. And that led me to get a master's degree in an interdisciplinary degree in theology and psychology that felt like the right intersection around who we are and how we think of the world and, and God and everything. So with your program with emphasis on vocation, and still even in that program was creating space around vocation and calling and, and helping my classmates, think about these themes and their life, and what are they going to do after they leave the walls of that institution, but still didn't know what I was going to do? And a lot of people going through that program, a lot of people that I went to school with census was years ago now, but we're having answers, Mike is helping professions. Yeah. So one of the, I think, poignant moments in that process, I had breakfast with a good friend of mine who was about to graduate, he was gonna go on and be a therapist, and I was still in this place of like, what do I do with this stuff that's been coming up? And it's stuff that I feel like, it's really like, what is the work I want to do? I just don't know, where do I put it? And he's like, let me solve it for you, Dan. He pulls out a napkin and reaches down in his bag and pulls out a pan, it's like four words make up your it's actually five, your own job. Right on this nafees. Like, there you go, make up your own job. And as simple as it was. That's ultimately the path that I chose and went on to start start the meaning movement along with a handful of other entrepreneurial endeavors. I think since since that moment has been a, a, my journey has been one of really exploration around around entrepreneurship and around how do I help people? With these themes of meaning and purpose, and these existential questions, why am I here?

Well, uh, well, thanks for sharing your story. That's really good. And that's a

lot I that was probably longer answer. Some context for that, that's part of his callings conversation is how do we get to where we are, I mean, there's always a backstory, I think that's important, which, so your friend was able to kind of, you know, nail you by by just like spelling out this, you know, make up your own job thing. And I'm sure that it's not always that easy, or the time isn't always that right with the people that that you coach and work with? So I would so how do you help people discern between what is real and authentic, that they should be listening to? You know, and then what are those shiny objects? What are those distractions? What are the voices that are sort of misguiding you?

Yes, perfect. Yeah, yeah, it's such a such an important question. It's really important to name that work is a very crowded space, that there's a lot of a lot of expectations, a lot of pressures, and a lot of stories about who we are, when it comes to work, who we need to be and all the things that we need to do and not do when it comes to work. And so something that's really a really important piece of the process is to name as much as you can that's in that if work is a room, right? Who else who else is in this room with us who else is is is speaking in your mind in your heart and your soul, about you and work and get that out on paper. So an activity that I encourage everyone to do, just to get really practical here is to just get out, get out a blank piece of paper, your journal or whatever, it just brainstorm for a minute, like, what are the messages? What are the major messages about work, we all have these messages that we've acquired, you know, from a handful of different different places, just start by just brainstorming all of them out on paper, no judgment, positive and negative, you might not have some, you might have strong, you know, value judgments associated with them. Some might not, but just get them all out. Then after you have them all out, go back through that list and think about where in my story where in my history, could that have come from and assign as much as possible names of people of cultures of institutions that may have been the source of those, those those ideas? And if it's like this, my my dad didn't ever actually say this. But like he kind of comes up just put his name down there. Because Because that's that's really what's what's, you know, we're not we're not going to be nailing this list out to anyone, no one needs to see it. But as much as you can to get those those Some some connection points in that list. And then what you find is as you go through that, you start to have more clarity on why you feel you may feel stuck meant, why you have made the choices that you've made that have led up to this point. And also, which of those stories do you want to emphasize? And what are those narratives? Do you want to guide you moving forward, and which ones you want to leave behind and say, yeah, that might have been helpful at some point in my life, like me, I'm really grateful for my youth pastor and the influence that he had in my life. And that was really important and helpful for me at one time. But it was time for me to move on beyond, you know, beyond his narrative for my life, and to embrace and makeup, you know, a new narrative. And so just like getting it out there, going through that list, assigning names to it, even community don't cross out and bold, bold ink, the ones that you just want to like throw away and maybe burn that list when you're done with it, or whatever, whatever might be, maybe highlight and circle, the ones that like this is what we're I want want to use to guide me moving forward, like work with that stuff. But that's the that's that's a profoundly liberating activity. And what comes out of that is that it starts to create some space where it's like you're pushing aside like you're getting like you're at a crowded concert or something, right, and you're right in front of the band. And all these people are pushing, pushing in on you, that's what the space can feel like. It's like you're pushing, pushing the crowd back a little bit to make some space for you to really find yourself find your own voice in the midst of all those other voices expectations that are there.

So can we go back just a quick minute, because I want to understand how you think about callings. So we have been having this conversation for a very long time. And I have come to believe that we can have more than one calling. In fact, I think we do I think callings can change over time and in different seasons. So I'm curious kind of what your working definition is, if you have one now. And is it synonymous with purpose? I think those kind of fit together a lot in my mind. So I'm curious how you think about that. Or if they're completely different ideas, it's really important to realize that your calling is bigger than one particular job. At least that's how I how I think of it, I think of a calling as a thread or a theme that moves throughout your life. And that theme can take on different manifestations. So you might be at one point in your life, a therapist, and another point of your life a podcast host, but the work that you're doing in both those contexts that feels good to you, that feels rich and feels like connected to the like, to who you who you are. And, and and the difference that you want to make in the world, that there's a similarity in those two different contexts between the work, you know, similarity in, like the core of that work. And I think that that's what's really important is that we sometimes can get really stuck thinking, Okay, I am called to do this one thing, I thought I had this really, especially if you have a really good job that you really love, and then for some reason, that job ended that work, you know, expression ended, maybe you were fired, maybe the company, you know, whatever happened, maybe you were, you know, lost some abilities that you had at that time. And so that it can feel, you know, like you've lost this big part of yourself, do you help people inquire sort of from within before they they apply it without? I actually I appreciated your illustration of the, hey, let's let's, let's pray. It's practical. Let's put some things on the table. Let's connect some dots. Let's see what emerges. But I guess how do you guide them from the inside out? In terms of reading that inner voice?

I was thinking what is the role of intuition also? So that's one of the questions I had sorry, he didn't mean to interrupt.

Okay. I think that's a similar question. Yeah. Because I know so you and you've given the illustration of your own experience, and you were stuck for a while. And I'm sure that you knew that you felt I guess, you know, a bit like an imposter at times. You were you were stuck for a while. What ended up kind of leading to you being able to internalize who you were, and then finally be able to break three free.

Yeah, yeah. All all great questions. Where do I where do I start? I think that so yeah, maybe just with I think it does start with reflection. Just to touch on touch on that point. Like I think that, that there's a reason if you feel stuck, there's a reason that you feel stuck. And it's really important to try to understand what are some of these, especially when you should go back even to that, that exercise around voices? Like, what are the voices that are telling you competing things, because that's some of the problem is like, I have one voice telling me I need to be a youth pastor, and then my life telling me, this is a really bad fit for me. But like, I can't have both of those, like, I can't be be following both those narratives at the same the same time. And so, to begin to ask you how, what are the what, how, how did I get here? What's the story that's brought me up and up until this point? It's a really important place to start? And then start looking for the what? How do you think about goodness and joy and love in your life? And what are some of the themes of like, what are the like, where are you? As simple as as like, what what are you doing when you're happiest? What are the things? What What is the intersection between work and joy in your your life? What do you just love to do, and start looking for themes, put narratives to that. And I think that's a really important, like, you have to do all of this in, in narrative format. Because our identity as as people is made up of, it's made up of narratives, if we tried to pinpoint some part of our brain, that is our identity, it would be the story center, it would be our memories, the stories that we tell ourselves about who we are, and we're always retelling those stories. And so the more you can understand the stories that have shaped you, and how you have experienced what your what your experience of goodness is, the more you can start to look at themes to say, Okay, I guess it depends on what your goals are assuming that you are goal is to find a next job a next career and Next, you know, work opportunity. And for some people, maybe they're, you know, independently wealthy, and they just want to volunteer, you know, and find a good volunteer opportunity or whatever, that's totally valid as well. But for a lot of people, most people that I end up working with, there's this money component as well. So we have to think about this, this intersection of income and earning opportunity. And so what's important, though, is that you find these themes, and then you start experimenting with them. And I just, I'm a big proponent of really approaching it like a site like the scientific method, like you have a hypothesis. What is it? What happens to Dan, when we put Dan, in the role of a project manager, or in the role of a teacher, or whatever it might be that it seems like Okay, in this role, he could, he could flex these flex these particular muscles. And then we study that and see what comes back, and then use that data to decide, okay, here's, here's what's next. And so if you're in a place where you're considering a major transition, it's good to find ways to kind of dip your toe in the water before you go all in before you go back to grad school before you make massive investments before you quit your job. Because often what emerges is that it doesn't necessarily take a you know, you're not not totally changing completely to different career path that has nothing to do with what you've been doing. But often, it's just like one lane over or maybe even just a different approach to the work that you're already doing. that then allows you to find it much more fulfilling, and really much more engaging and more fun. Sometimes that got to everything in your question, but maybe a couple pieces of it.

No, it was good. Yeah. Yeah, I will, wondering how that what's the role of resistance in? And how do you think about that in when people are pursuing their call callings. And I'm reminded, thinking about Joseph Campbell, the hero's journey, and the refusal of the call, and how we can have kind of this sense that there's a direction we need to go, but we can feel a whole lot of resistance and challenge and kind of back away from it. Which I know I have done in my life. So how does that fit into your framework and how you think about callings?

I think about it as it's definitely definitely a component, I find that everyone who's asking these kinds of questions are asking them for a reason. And so maybe, I don't know exactly, I'm not close enough to Joseph Campbell's work to know exactly where this fits in. But I know that story form is very influenced, you know, that there are parallels that a story always begins with an inciting incident. There's always something that propels you know, propels the hero to to take that first step to leave what's known and enter into into the unknown and you know, except that the quest without that, there's there's no reason to do this hard work. Because it is it is hard. And you need that, that extra motivation in order to overcome resistance, which isn't to say that you should go looking for a, you know, midlife or quarter life crisis in order to just start this. But you'll know if it's coming and you'll like I, eventually the pain of stain outweighs the cost of facing that resistance and, and moving moving into these these questions, there are people who, who, you know from the time they're 10, that they want to do a specific thing. And they go and do it, and it works for them. And they don't ask these questions. And that's fine. Because they haven't had to and like, bless, bless them. And that's, that's fantastic. But then you're the one ehat, what so do you think that there are? I know that there's consequences that we have to experience from? Not following our call? Do you think that there are consequences either way? Whether we do take on the call? What would be the consequences of that? And? And what if we even consciously sort of deny the awareness of our call? What were the points is a really interesting question. I think for many of us, like the the consequences, I can talk from my own story, the consequences of avoiding it for much longer. I mean, I was it was playing out and depression is playing out and anxiety is playing out in all these, all these, these negative ways. And so a lot of ways I was I was forced, I was forced into it, the consequence for me in that context would have been, you know, further down those those paths, which isn't, isn't not a good destination to go. For others who maybe the pain is less obvious or less pronounced? I think the most obvious one is, I guess, maybe the most obvious consequences is the question of, are you giving that time to something that is living the kind of legacy tongue the kind of story that you want to be a part of telling, by not pursuing a sense of calling in that? Or are you leaning in and trying to find how can I at least make make that time more, more meaningful, more significant, you know, more and more helpful to the world? I think of, um, you know, I, so that's, I guess, on the the side of avoiding your calling or not pursuing that, but then on the side of pursuing it, that there's the cost of that is hard. And that these questions, these questions are hard to answer. It's, it's, they're complex questions. And I think that's often some of the frustration I have with a lot of love the conversations that happen online, on blog posts, or whatever you search around about calling, and it's like, oh, here's the three questions that you need to ask us to find your calling. As if it's that easy, right? Like as if that actually works. It doesn't, and maybe, maybe it does for someone who's already already gotten there. And then they can say, Okay, these three questions are questions I cannot answer, but when you're in it, that it doesn't work. So there's, there's a, there's a cost and a cost to the process and a cost to to actually being in it and doing the work, I think of the word passion, which, you know, has has Latin roots that are that are related to the reason why, in the Catholic Church, I talked about the Passion of the Christ, the passion, like it's to give in to suffer on behalf of something that you believe in, and hope for. And so there is an element of that when it comes to calling it doesn't have to be suffering, and willing to be changed by it, which is always changes always kind of this. It's just a difficult process. So I want to ask, though, if someone's listening, and they're like, this is great. However, I have three kids at home. I'm a single mom, I have bills. I know you get question I have bills to pay. It's so we've been talking chatting I've been talking a lot about is this is this a privileged conversation? Which we we tend to think it is a little bit that there is an element of kind of basic needs being met, to get to a place to even, you know, the luxury of having this conversation. But on some level to there is this innate human hole, I think to ask these questions. And so what would you say to someone who's just struggling to make ends meet who kind of wants who's interested in this, but it doesn't really have the capacity to explore this right now. Yeah.

I love it. Such as such an important question. There's there's two, two directions, I want to go with this question. First is that, regardless of what we're doing, to pay the bills in the margin that we have, or whatever might be the author, I think it's Barry Schwartz in the book, why we work, if I remember correctly, it tells a story of a cellphone in his TED Talk related to this, of a janitor at a hospital who was mopping the floor. Okay, let's get emotional about this. Because it's like, it's so beautiful. He mopped the floor of this room of a patient who was in a coma. And that patient had a visitor who was there. But that visit was out of the room. And he was mopping then in the hallway, and this person came back and said, Hey, would you mind mapping? Would you mind mopping the floor. And so he went in and mopped the floor again, because I hadn't seen that in mop the floor. And I just think that like that bit of care that he was able to give to that patient. By doing that, it's like, That's such a beautiful thing. And like that, we all have opportunities to do that. And who are we to say that that's not a meaningful engagement for that person. So I think that's one really important piece of the puzzle. The other the other piece is that we can't have we shouldn't have value judgments. As far as the the specific, like, where the impact is in, in business, we would talk about as in the in the value chain of what we're, what we're doing, like, you don't have to be solving the world's problems, or having these existential conversations like like we're having right now, in order for it to be meaningful. just providing for your family is a profoundly meaningful thing. And our experience of meaning correlates to where we are on the hierarchy, further down that hierarchy or spectrum, we can only give so much energy to the next lane over the next level above. And so you know, for someone who's just caring for, like the provision for their family, that in and of itself is really meaningful, and they're not going to be asking these other questions because they don't have the space and the capacity to or in the privilege to, it's just from this privileged position, it can feel weird to be like, we get to have this conversation because we have privilege, and maybe that's not okay. But, but we have to make sure that we were not making it having a value judgment that because we're having this conversation that is better, or that we get to, like we're experiencing more meaning or making more meaning in life than someone who isn't at a place where they're able to ask these questions. So those are, those are the places that I go. Yeah.

Yeah. And so in Chad, and I've been thinking about calling lately as this kind of his call to authenticity. So a call to be that, you know, we just got off another podcast with and just we're talking about how that you know, the call to your for your insides to match your outsides. So for who you are intrinsically authentically to be who is in the world, which I love. That's kind of an amplified definition of calling. And so it's not just this kind of fine tuned, it's about your job, but it's more about Okay, who am I? And how do I show up in the world? And oh, yeah, my job's an extension of that. So I really like what you're saying. Because I think if we're putting value judgments on the conversation, it can get to this, like, it's better if you have this, the ability to have this conversation. And you're saying, No, it's not this is kind of a this is a this is a universal conversation. If we can broaden our definition a little bit. Yeah, yeah.

That's good, too. I think do you think? You know, I was thinking like, in some what you talked about, like making little tweaks sometimes you can make little adjustments? What what leads people Dan, Dan, to like, do you feel like do you think that the people have to fail to be able to listen to their call? Or, or is it something where you can you know, kind of come to it from a without having to fail?

Or through Yeah, yeah, burnout was mine some depression anxiety, like I like all of that. Do we? Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, I do think I don't think it's necessary, but I but it's, there's usually that inciting incident and to use that language again, that's like something that pushes us over the edge. I do think that some personality types are more prone towards asking these deeper kind of soulful questions. And for those, I think if you're listening, you're one of those, those types and you haven't been through the, you know, the Valley of despair and burnout, then Good, good on you. And I do think that you could do some of this work to avoid some future future pain that some of us who are less inclined, maybe we kind of twist, life had to twist our arm to get us to do we go do the hard work?

Yeah, yeah, I, when we were just talking about this, that I've often thought that you do have to kind of go through some failure or falling. But you're what you're saying. And then what we've previously talked about with another guest is making me rethink that a little bit. And I'm thinking of the Mark neepco, quote, The poet Mark naipo, who says we either willingly shed or were broken open. So I think there is there are some of us who will willingly step into this process, because we see something deeper and better and more fulfilling. And there's some like me, that have to be broken open a little bit.

Absolutely. Yeah. No, I, I completely agree. And I think, you know, as you're saying, that just, just that broken part is like it. I feel like for anyone who's listening, who maybe is, you know, thinking about this kind of work and hasn't like fully invested yourself in it. Like, there, there's, you don't know what's coming. And maybe, you know, maybe you're, you're the pain point isn't, isn't work, but, but life can throw you curveballs that, that force you into new spaces that that you just might not be prepared for whether that's, you know, a death in the family or divorce or, you know, illness like things things happen. Often, I've ended up working with people who have been in a job that they loved. And so they weren't asking these kinds of questions. But then for some reason, that Job had to end work with a few a few dancers who were ballet, you know, in ballet, which you've got, you've got a clock that's, that's ticking, and sooner or later, you can't your body can't sustain that kind of activity. And I worked with one woman who was a nurse and a delivery delivery nurse. If I think she had a medical thing happened with her hands that she couldn't she physically couldn't, things happen that forced them into that space of like, okay, no, what, what do I do next, and for them, a lot of that work, and I think this is really, really important for a lot of us is to serve first begin with grief over that loss of what may have been so good to really enter into that, that pain, that sadness, in order to let it in some ways wash over you run its course so that then you can create it, again, create space, I think there's a metaphor, I always come back to create space for something, something new to emerge, which I know there's not exactly you know, where where we were, but it just was triggered by that idea of like, breaking that like, life can break us in unpredictable ways.

Yeah, and I think that that's a part of this calling journey is like recognizing why died these moments when we're broken open a little bit and seeing them for what they are and being gentle with them. And I love that idea the grieving around that. Because there is if we can move through those there is pure beauty in that there are lessons in that there are things that we can integrate and move forward with and whether it's job related or not. I think those are part of how we become who we are. Yeah, those are those are some interesting examples of having to shed and shift identities when it's more of it's less of a failure and more of a just life just come at you Yeah, that's a that's given me a lot of room for thought you know, to I feel like in a lot of men are this way but just a lot of people were, were very armored up and may and we don't even necessarily realize the ways that we are and you know, recently, this is a small thing, but like, you know, like so Shelley and I were trying to do a live broadcast earlier this week. And a lot of things went wrong. And I'm in charge everything went wrong. I'm in charge of and, and at first, you know, I was like I was coming up with excuses and reasons for, like, why something didn't work and why we chose to do what we did at the time. And that evening, I kind of did some reflection, and I was journaling in my focus, full focus planner, about the day's events. And as soon as I just cracked open that one little piece of, I could have done that better. That little bit of a Mia culpa, that, you know, then suddenly, the floodgates started opening, I was like, you know, what, I could have done this better to, should have thought about this, I need to make a checklist for this. And it just felt so good, kind of just disarming myself, then coming back to, you know, my spouse and business partner and saying, Okay, all right, I forgot to hit record I didn't do. And, yeah, and I did anyway, it's a small example of the and it's like, and since then I've taken like, kind of, like, a lot of ownership and, you know, owning certain technical things of some, I think that that is very true on a on a, that's a, I guess what a micro scale. And on a macro scale in our lives, there, we've I think we need to put down some of the armor, and just be just radically authentic. And I know it's hard, you know, and so it's that self inquiry that I think we do need to do.

So can I ask you, Dan, how did how do you do it? How does it look in your life to commit the commit that authentically, I feel like, in some ways, I am. Gift gifted in that. In that I am extremely relational and emotional. I mean, even just earlier on this call, I choked out that's not uncommon for me, I cry a lot. And I'm comfortable with that. Because I've lived with it for almost 40 years, a long time. And, and so there's a piece of that, I think there but there are still parts that I do have to work to integrate parts of parts of myself. And I know that I think all personalities have, you know, the things that are easier for us the things that are that are harder. I like to have a lot of irons in the fire. I like to do I have a handful of entrepreneurial projects. That's one thing that I guess that's one of the place I went with your questions like, I don't do a great job of integrating those projects. I don't do a great job about talking about the meaning movement to my tribe as a software company that I that I lead. I don't talk Yeah, those are kind of separate separate streams. And kind of vice versa. I try I'm really working to kind of integrate those to talk more about them and figure out ways that they can cross pollinate. But But yeah, I guess that's, that's, that's where I go with that. I'm sure there's more I'm sure there's more to be said there and more to explore. But one thing I think is really just putting you on. Yeah, well, there's a little bit of a different direction. But I think it's really important also to name that I there is a tendency This is totally anecdotal, no studies to back this up, but I ended up great your teeth come what may get it done kind of mentality that that I think a lot of men don't feel the freedom to really engage as deeply with some of these questions. I to find I do think that there's some really great you know, I think with along with gender equality in the workplace, I do hope that that that pendulum is swinging back more towards more towards the middle. But I do think that that's worth that's worth noting that these more emotional, emotionally driven, soulful conversations they take they take a part of ourselves a type of engagement that is more difficult for for some people and a larger percentage of those people are are pale without making too many gender stereotypes.

Very diplomatic. That's been my experience. Yeah. So yeah, this these conversations, I think are are natural for a lot of women. This is how we kind of connect and talk. But for men, and it's whether in sports,

sticking to well, I think that that's the hope for feminism in in you know, as I approach it in my My life is that like, this isn't just for this isn't just for the women in my life. It's not just for my wife and for my daughters it's for it's for me, you know? I hope that other people see Dan Cumberland. Man, you gotta check him out.

Yeah, tell folks where to find you.

Yeah, well, I would love, love to connect with anyone who's interested in exploring these conversations. If you're listening to this on a podcast, I have a podcast called the meaning movement. So that could be a great place to engage to wherever you're looking for, you're listening to this, you can just search for the meaning movement, or my name, Dan Cumberland, and you'll, you'll find it. I also blog periodically at the meaning of a.com. And I have a free email course just five short emails called Five clues to your calling that I would love for people to jump in and experience at the calling course.com. Find that on your website.

Yeah, yeah, you can find them on the website or from from the calling course.com. And we'd love to connect with you.

We'll link to it in our show.

We'll make sure everybody gets all that good information. So thank you for being here. Thank you for taking some time out of your Seattle, Sunny Seattle day. Thank you so much cold, Sunny.

So fun. I feel like you're just the journey you've been on. It's just a parallel to, to where I've been in so many ways, and really appreciate that you're out there doing this good work. And so we need more, more people like you. And so I'm just grateful for the chance to connect and be a part of this.

As to your generosity, thank you for this shared space. We're gonna keep following your work. We're gonna keep promoting you. And I agree all the we need more people doing this good work in the world. So thank you for your contributions. Absolutely. Thanks for tuning in to the big self podcast. If you like this podcast and you're interested in the idea of discerning your callings, go to big self school.com slash core values and download the free activity that we've created for you there. We think that getting clear on your core values is a critical first step and really understanding your callings. It's fun. It'll take 15 minutes and we really think it will help and join the community on Facebook at big self school students. You can find us at big underscore self on Twitter and at the big self school on LinkedIn and Insta we love to hear from your blood show has made an impact on your thinking, your habits, your decision making, or anything else. Thanks for tuning in.