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111: Stephen McGhee - The Power of Pause: Redefining Leadership in a Fast-Paced World
Episode 111 • 9th January 2025 • The Quantum Biology Collective Podcast • The Quantum Biology Collective
00:00:00 01:14:26

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“What's normal isn't normal,” declares Stephen McGhee, a leadership coach with over three decades of experience, as he joins the Quantum Biology Collective Podcast. Stephen shares his compelling journey from the high-stakes world of corporate finance to becoming a beacon of guidance for leaders seeking authenticity and alignment. His life took a dramatic turn following a near-fatal health scare, prompting him to reevaluate his priorities and embrace a path of leadership advisement.

In this episode, Stephen explores the concept of discretionary energy and its critical role in effective leadership. He challenges the conventional reliance on willpower, advocating instead for a deeper connection to one's inner truth and the cultivation of personal sovereignty. Stephen emphasizes that true leadership transcends titles and is rooted in the positive influence one can have on others, regardless of their position.

Join the conversation to discover how Stephen McGhee's insights can help you align your life with your true values, set clear boundaries, and harness your unique potential to lead with integrity and purpose.

Key Takeaways

1. Create space between stimulus and response. When triggered, pause and take a breath before reacting. This allows you to make a conscious choice rather than falling into familiar patterns.

2. Ask yourself "Who do I need to be?" in challenging situations. Focus on being rather than doing to approach leadership and problem-solving from a more effective mindset.

3. Practice deep listening - with others, yourself, and the world around you. Truly hearing and understanding builds trust and opens up new possibilities.

4. Take care of yourself first. As a leader, you need to maintain your own wellbeing and energy in order to effectively serve others.

5. Look for opportunities to lead and share your wisdom in everyday moments. Even small actions can have a ripple effect and make a difference.

Memorable Quotes

"The first law of leadership is take care of yourself. Breathe that in, let that camp in your heart and your body. Let it fill your cells. Take care of yourself."
"Clear boundaries are not barriers to the heart. People think that saying no is a bad thing in some way. But obligations are overrated."
"Leadership is far reaching. You will have no idea who will listen to this, who will then take something from it and go share it with their family or go share it with their patient, or go share it with a stranger on the street. Do not underestimate your power as a leader as you share."

Connect with Stephen

Website: https://www.mcgheeleadership.com/

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Transcripts

Meredith Oke:

Stephen McGee, welcome to the QVC podcast. I'm

Meredith Oke:

really excited for this conversation.

Stephen McGhee:

Me too, Meredith. We've had a few touch ins

Stephen McGhee:

before, so it's really cool to be here with you.

Meredith Oke:

Thank you. And a little thank you to our mutual

Meredith Oke:

godfather, Peter Bort. He's always sweet,

Meredith Oke:

sprinkling lovely people into my life. Thanks,

Meredith Oke:

Peter. All right, so let's start with your story

Meredith Oke:

and how you came to be where you are, which is as

Meredith Oke:

a leadership coach and a coach to highly

Meredith Oke:

successful people. You've led people up mountains

Meredith Oke:

and down rapids and spoken on stages, but you

Meredith Oke:

started out in a much more traditional role in

Meredith Oke:

life in a corporate environment. How did you get.

Meredith Oke:

How did that journey unfold to where you are now?

Stephen McGhee:

Well, we'll do this short version, Meredith. If

Stephen McGhee:

you want to dive deeper into any of the specifics

Stephen McGhee:

of it, we can do that. But like a lot of us

Stephen McGhee:

listening, I grew up with meager beginnings. My

Stephen McGhee:

mother reared four kids on her own, and she, you

Stephen McGhee:

know, was going out trying to make a living. So

Stephen McGhee:

sometimes she was waiting tables at night. You

Stephen McGhee:

know, we were living off of whatever tips she had

Stephen McGhee:

as a cocktail waitress, etc. So we didn't have

Stephen McGhee:

much. So there was, you know, to begin with, the.

Stephen McGhee:

Just the mindset I had had some limitations in

Stephen McGhee:

it. Like, I don't know how anyone ever could do

Stephen McGhee:

this or that or this or that based on the mindset

Stephen McGhee:

I had, because there was just a lot of things we

Stephen McGhee:

couldn't afford due to the limited resources. So

Stephen McGhee:

I mentioned that to you because it put into my

Stephen McGhee:

heart and mind that, oh, I just think money would

Stephen McGhee:

solve all my problems as a young man. So I

Stephen McGhee:

started to. I made it through school. That's a

Stephen McGhee:

longer story. I did get a degree in business

Stephen McGhee:

administration in finance. And somehow, some way,

Stephen McGhee:

I think, because I interviewed. Well, fast

Stephen McGhee:

forward through college to my first job in the

Stephen McGhee:

financial services and banking industry. And I

Stephen McGhee:

spent many years climbing the corporate ladder.

Stephen McGhee:

And at some point, maybe I'm four to five years

Stephen McGhee:

in this corporate climbing of the ladder, I get

Stephen McGhee:

asked to be on what we call the succession plan

Stephen McGhee:

at a large financial services organization

Stephen McGhee:

underneath Nations Bank. And so I was learning a

Stephen McGhee:

lot about leadership, but I was also learning a

Stephen McGhee:

lot about how people operated in the boardroom,

Stephen McGhee:

how people meaning how the operations went, how

Stephen McGhee:

the conversations went, how the communications

Stephen McGhee:

went. And there was so much of it that I didn't

Stephen McGhee:

like. Like, it felt like we were out of integrity

Stephen McGhee:

and that we were doing things to just get the

Stephen McGhee:

deal. In the midst of all that, Meredith, I Was

Stephen McGhee:

doing a lot of entertaining to get the deal

Stephen McGhee:

because money costs are all the same. For those

Stephen McGhee:

of you that understand a little bit about

Stephen McGhee:

financial services, investment banking industry,

Stephen McGhee:

you know, the money cost is the same. So how do

Stephen McGhee:

you really get a deal? You get a deal because

Stephen McGhee:

you're really good at business development or

Stephen McGhee:

getting clients through entertainment. So I did a

Stephen McGhee:

lot of traveling. I was really good at the game

Stephen McGhee:

of politics in corporate America. I ate out

Stephen McGhee:

almost every night. There was a lot of alcohol

Stephen McGhee:

involved and a high degree of stress. I remember

Stephen McGhee:

one night in particular, Meredith, where I was

Stephen McGhee:

trying to go to sleep at night and my body was

Stephen McGhee:

just pouring sweat from the stress, like I was

Stephen McGhee:

soaking my sheep. I would wake up like at 2am and

Stephen McGhee:

I couldn't go back to sleep and my body was

Stephen McGhee:

inflamed and I was way out of touch with nature,

Stephen McGhee:

which I know we're going to talk about later. I

Stephen McGhee:

was. My circadian rhythm was way out of whack. My

Stephen McGhee:

body was way out of whack. So long story short, I

Stephen McGhee:

end up sick with a blood clot in my left arm and

Stephen McGhee:

it was about 9 to 10 inches long. And I was so

Stephen McGhee:

afraid of what was happening with the swelling

Stephen McGhee:

and it was blue and all of that that I just

Stephen McGhee:

avoided it, I ignored it until one night we were

Stephen McGhee:

sitting at dinner with my family and my sister in

Stephen McGhee:

law said, you, you really should get that

Stephen McGhee:

checked. And so it scared me enough that night

Stephen McGhee:

that I went straight to the emergency room at

Stephen McGhee:

Swedish Medical center in Denver, Colorado. And

Stephen McGhee:

within a few minutes they've determined that I've

Stephen McGhee:

got this blood clot. And I don't know, Meredith,

Stephen McGhee:

how much you know about blood clots, but they're

Stephen McGhee:

painful, but they can be very dangerous because

Stephen McGhee:

it breaks off and it can travel to a major organ

Stephen McGhee:

and they can kill you. So I ended up in intensive

Stephen McGhee:

care and I was in intensive care for eight days,

Stephen McGhee:

which is like a lot of things in life. It was

Stephen McGhee:

horrific and a blessing all in the same breath.

Stephen McGhee:

One of the blessings was I survived, you know,

Stephen McGhee:

that I actually lived through it. Eight days in

Stephen McGhee:

intensive care means, you know, we're really.

Meredith Oke:

Yeah, especially when you just walked in after

Meredith Oke:

dinner.

Stephen McGhee:

Especially.

Meredith Oke:

Hey, thought I'd get this checked out. Eight days

Meredith Oke:

in intensive care later. Wow, that's good you

Meredith Oke:

went in.

Stephen McGhee:

It's really good. I went in for many reasons. But

Stephen McGhee:

the real linchpin for me wasn't about me. It was

Stephen McGhee:

about a man who had come in from a motorcycle

Stephen McGhee:

accident. He was in intensive care in a bed next

Stephen McGhee:

to me. And if you've ever been in intensive care,

Stephen McGhee:

in most hospitals, you're separated not by a

Stephen McGhee:

room, but by a. By a curtain. So I'm again awake

Stephen McGhee:

in the middle of the night, and I can hear this

Stephen McGhee:

man who I don't know, but I can hear his pain. I

Stephen McGhee:

can hear his suffering. But most impactful was I

Stephen McGhee:

heard his breathing start to slow down. And

Stephen McGhee:

eventually he took his last breath. And I heard

Stephen McGhee:

it. I heard the sigh. It's almost as if I could

Stephen McGhee:

feel his spirit leaving his body. And it was. You

Stephen McGhee:

know, eventually, you know, everyone comes

Stephen McGhee:

running in, and they try to resuscitate, but they

Stephen McGhee:

don't. The man passes. And in that moment,

Stephen McGhee:

Meredith, I made a decision. So many decisions

Stephen McGhee:

about my life. And the rest of the story

Stephen McGhee:

continues from there. But in that moment, I was

Stephen McGhee:

like, I am not freaking doing what I've been

Stephen McGhee:

doing. I am not wasting one precious moment of

Stephen McGhee:

this beautiful thing called life doing anything

Stephen McGhee:

that I don't really believe in or that I really.

Stephen McGhee:

That I don't really want to be doing. So I don't

Stephen McGhee:

believe in obligation. I believe in commitments.

Stephen McGhee:

And that's the short version, Meredith. I don't

Stephen McGhee:

want it to be just talking straight through our

Stephen McGhee:

time, because I know you have a lot of questions

Stephen McGhee:

and a lot to insert into this, but that's the

Stephen McGhee:

basic start of my work, of my moving into the

Stephen McGhee:

world of leadership advisement, which I've been

Stephen McGhee:

doing now for 30 years.

Meredith Oke:

Wow. It's interesting to me because, you know, a

Meredith Oke:

lot of people could have that experience but not

Meredith Oke:

have that outcome. Do you feel that you were

Meredith Oke:

primed for that in some way or working toward it?

Stephen McGhee:

I.

Meredith Oke:

And then when the moment arrived, it was, like,

Meredith Oke:

open.

Stephen McGhee:

I mean, I knew I couldn't. And maybe your

Stephen McGhee:

listeners can appreciate this. When we are on a

Stephen McGhee:

path. When I am on a path that I know I can't

Stephen McGhee:

sustain, I know that there's something I want or

Stephen McGhee:

must change. But sometimes I wait until I get

Stephen McGhee:

thrown down the stairs to get the message.

Meredith Oke:

Can you hear me? I can relate.

Stephen McGhee:

Everyone out there ought to be raising their hand

Stephen McGhee:

right now.

Meredith Oke:

Hands up.

Stephen McGhee:

Hopefully we get wise. Hopefully we get some

Stephen McGhee:

wisdom along the way to go. No. These are signs

Stephen McGhee:

that I'm off track. I'm off journey. I'm off

Stephen McGhee:

path. My soul isn't happy. Physically,

Stephen McGhee:

emotionally, mentally. I'm out of whack, and I

Stephen McGhee:

want to do something about that. So, no, at that

Stephen McGhee:

time in my life, I wouldn't have. That was like

Stephen McGhee:

being. That was like being thrown down 20

Stephen McGhee:

staircases in eight days. And it woke me up. It

Stephen McGhee:

had me be aware of what I was doing.

Meredith Oke:

Wow. And when you work with people, because I

Meredith Oke:

think there's also this idea that sometimes in

Meredith Oke:

order to wake up, we have to make all of these

Meredith Oke:

drastic changes in our lives. I know you work now

Meredith Oke:

as a coach to people who work, you know, in the

Meredith Oke:

corporate world or in the. In the financial

Meredith Oke:

world, and they like. It kind of works for them.

Meredith Oke:

And I just want to talk about the idea of being

Meredith Oke:

attuned to what does or doesn't work for you, for

Meredith Oke:

you. Like you were saying you could tell that the

Meredith Oke:

life you were living was not aligned, it was not

Meredith Oke:

working. How do you open it up for people to

Meredith Oke:

understand if there's some periphery changes that

Meredith Oke:

need to be made or if they're truly on the wrong

Meredith Oke:

path? Because I guess what I'm getting at is I

Meredith Oke:

think sometimes we have this idea like, oh, if I

Meredith Oke:

want to grow spiritually, I can't be in the

Meredith Oke:

corporate world or I can't have this type of job.

Meredith Oke:

And I'm not sure that that's true, but it is true

Meredith Oke:

that it has to be working for you. What are your

Meredith Oke:

thoughts?

Stephen McGhee:

Well, it's such a beautiful, beautiful question.

Stephen McGhee:

And the last thing I would want to convey today

Stephen McGhee:

is that the corporate world is wrong for

Stephen McGhee:

everyone. There are some company cultures that

Stephen McGhee:

are flat out toxic. And in those toxic cultures,

Stephen McGhee:

you know, people have to make their individual,

Stephen McGhee:

unique choices about how they navigate all of

Stephen McGhee:

that. There are some people that were. That

Stephen McGhee:

really thrive in the job I was doing. You know,

Stephen McGhee:

they really would throw. I wasn't built for it.

Stephen McGhee:

So I think the key is know thyself. Like, you

Stephen McGhee:

really want to know who you are, and you. You

Stephen McGhee:

really want to pay attention to the signs and the

Stephen McGhee:

symptoms. I think sometimes, and with my clients,

Stephen McGhee:

they might have an overwhelm or they might, you

Stephen McGhee:

know, be feeling like they're eating out too much

Stephen McGhee:

or they're away from their family too much or

Stephen McGhee:

whatever the case might be. Those can be small,

Stephen McGhee:

incremental and nuanced adjustments where a

Stephen McGhee:

person has to be able to set clear boundaries

Stephen McGhee:

with the culture, with their direct reports, with

Stephen McGhee:

the chairman of the board or whatever it is. And

Stephen McGhee:

that's where I come in and really support people

Stephen McGhee:

in saying, speak your truth in leadership. That's

Stephen McGhee:

everything. Because integrity in leadership is so

Stephen McGhee:

highly important to being effective that if a

Stephen McGhee:

person is lying to themselves, they're probably

Stephen McGhee:

lying to other people. So this is where these. It

Stephen McGhee:

can be. To answer your question more

Stephen McGhee:

specifically, it might be small Adjustments that

Stephen McGhee:

support a person in thriving in an environment

Stephen McGhee:

because they set some clear boundaries about. I'm

Stephen McGhee:

not going to every. Entertaining dinner every

Stephen McGhee:

night and drinking four drinks. You know, I'm

Stephen McGhee:

just not. That's not for me at this time in my

Stephen McGhee:

life. And I'm setting clear boundaries.

Meredith Oke:

Yeah, yeah, that really makes sense. And I think,

Meredith Oke:

yeah, absolutely. Because I think sometimes we

Meredith Oke:

get the idea and then it's like, okay, well I'm,

Meredith Oke:

you know, especially let's say if you're a

Meredith Oke:

practitioner or you think, okay, well, I have to

Meredith Oke:

own my own business. But again, not everyone is

Meredith Oke:

built to own a business. Sometimes, you know, I

Meredith Oke:

think it's fine to be an employee or to work, to

Meredith Oke:

work for someone else. And it's like being able

Meredith Oke:

to. Yeah. Suss out what is going to work for me

Meredith Oke:

versus what I think I'm supposed to be doing

Meredith Oke:

based on what I've somehow been influenced to

Meredith Oke:

think.

Stephen McGhee:

Yeah, I think people can find fulfillment in a

Stephen McGhee:

lot of different ways. I think a person just has

Stephen McGhee:

to be aligned with themselves in such a way that

Stephen McGhee:

they're living into some form of their truth so

Stephen McGhee:

that they're not wearing themselves out day in

Stephen McGhee:

and day out, because that's just not sustainable.

Stephen McGhee:

And it's not result oriented either. I mean, you

Stephen McGhee:

can argue that it doesn't feel good, but the

Stephen McGhee:

greater argument is when people don't have

Stephen McGhee:

discretionary energy, creative generative energy

Stephen McGhee:

in their world, they typically don't feel that

Stephen McGhee:

fulfilled. So a lot of this is, as I said

Stephen McGhee:

earlier, it's sustained, nuanced changes where a

Stephen McGhee:

person let's, let's look at one specific example.

Stephen McGhee:

Like people have. I've been in organizations

Stephen McGhee:

where there's three minute response time. It's

Stephen McGhee:

not a mandate, but it's like three minute

Stephen McGhee:

response time on email is what's common. So

Stephen McGhee:

instead of working on your project, you're

Stephen McGhee:

working on responding to an email because you're

Stephen McGhee:

in the thread, but it isn't productive. So those

Stephen McGhee:

are changes that can be made extrinsically that

Stephen McGhee:

help a person to be more settled intrinsically.

Meredith Oke:

Right. I love what you just said. Discretionary

Meredith Oke:

energy. That is a good phrase. Say more about

Meredith Oke:

that. Because so many of us come into like the

Meredith Oke:

health and healing space due to energy deficits.

Meredith Oke:

And I know for myself I, I spend my energy like,

Meredith Oke:

like a credit card in overdraft. So I'm really

Meredith Oke:

interested. I'm interested. I love this idea of

Meredith Oke:

discretionary energy. Say more about that.

Stephen McGhee:

Well, I mean, it's. Imagine it's an overflow.

Stephen McGhee:

Like you're filled up. You know, on a quantum

Stephen McGhee:

biology level, you know, your, your, your cells

Stephen McGhee:

are charged, right. And you've got some room when

Stephen McGhee:

that happens, to live fully and to stay well,

Stephen McGhee:

like, immunity's up, cognitive functions up, all

Stephen McGhee:

those kinds of things are jamming. So

Stephen McGhee:

discretionary energy, when I speak about it in

Stephen McGhee:

leadership, it's like your workforce is doing

Stephen McGhee:

what they need to do, but even more because they

Stephen McGhee:

want to. And this is when we are fully alive.

Stephen McGhee:

It's like when you can. When you can be in the

Stephen McGhee:

presence of someone that's that filled up, it's

Stephen McGhee:

like a joyful encounter because they're not

Stephen McGhee:

holding back. And unfortunately, in a lot of

Stephen McGhee:

organizations, people are just doing as little as

Stephen McGhee:

they possibly can to get by because they're just

Stephen McGhee:

trying to get to the weekend. You know, they

Stephen McGhee:

start on Monday and they talk about the weekend,

Stephen McGhee:

and then they get to Wednesday and they're

Stephen McGhee:

talking about what they're going to do the next

Stephen McGhee:

weekend instead of really feeling fulfilled and

Stephen McGhee:

generating through creativity in their work,

Stephen McGhee:

whatever the work is. And it doesn't need to be

Stephen McGhee:

fancy work. It can be any kind of thing where a

Stephen McGhee:

person's like, I'm going to give this my all

Stephen McGhee:

today, because they can, because they want to.

Stephen McGhee:

They're willing to, but they also. They know that

Stephen McGhee:

they can.

Meredith Oke:

Right? Yeah. And I think this is one of the

Meredith Oke:

reasons that I was really excited to do this

Meredith Oke:

interview, because we can get all of our inputs

Meredith Oke:

correct, so to speak, and optimize our circadian

Meredith Oke:

rhythms and eat well and do our outdoor time and

Meredith Oke:

go for walks. But if the way that we've

Meredith Oke:

structured our life is taking our energy or not

Meredith Oke:

in alignment with who we are, we're still. Still

Meredith Oke:

fighting the flow in some, so to speak. Like, I

Meredith Oke:

don't know, maybe you can. Maybe you can hear

Meredith Oke:

what I'm trying to ask better than I can ask it,

Meredith Oke:

but it's like there are pieces beyond, you know,

Meredith Oke:

beyond just setting everything up to be healthy.

Meredith Oke:

There are pieces in terms of how we make

Meredith Oke:

decisions, how we live our lives, like what you

Meredith Oke:

were just saying, that are still going to put us

Meredith Oke:

in that energy deficit, are still going to work

Meredith Oke:

against our intrinsic ability to be healthy if we

Meredith Oke:

don't understand how to look at those things as

Meredith Oke:

well.

Stephen McGhee:

Yeah. So I've listened to your podcast a number

Stephen McGhee:

of times. I love the ones I've listened to your

Stephen McGhee:

guests really resonate with me. I'm learning so

Stephen McGhee:

much from you, Meredith, and from your guests.

Stephen McGhee:

But one thing I think we all agree on and how I

Stephen McGhee:

say it is what's normal isn't normal. So we think

Stephen McGhee:

it's normal to wake up tired. We think it's

Stephen McGhee:

normal to barely get through the day. We think

Stephen McGhee:

it's normal for these maladies. And I don't need

Stephen McGhee:

to list them because you've got plenty of guests

Stephen McGhee:

that can list more of them than I could. But, you

Stephen McGhee:

know, just obesity, diabetes, cancer, autoimmune

Stephen McGhee:

problems are not normal at the level that we're

Stephen McGhee:

seeing them. And you've had lots of podcasts

Stephen McGhee:

where people state the stats, you know, on that

Stephen McGhee:

stuff. So I go, first thing we got to do is wake

Stephen McGhee:

up and go, what I'm experiencing as exhaustion

Stephen McGhee:

isn't normal. And that my body can realign with

Stephen McGhee:

the proper principles and protocols of quantum

Stephen McGhee:

biology. And it's so powerful. And I would say,

Stephen McGhee:

Meredith, nobody's exempt from that. So if

Stephen McGhee:

there's someone out there going, yeah, but you

Stephen McGhee:

don't know how hard I've tried, and you don't

Stephen McGhee:

know how sick I really am. I would say believing

Stephen McGhee:

is seeing. And we live in a world that makes that

Stephen McGhee:

really hard because we live in a world that is

Stephen McGhee:

seeing is believing. So if seeing is believing,

Stephen McGhee:

you look, you watch the commercials and you start

Stephen McGhee:

to believe that, what, a pill from a

Stephen McGhee:

pharmaceutical company with 15 really bad side

Stephen McGhee:

effects is better to take because you've got

Stephen McGhee:

eczema or something like that. And so these

Stephen McGhee:

things are not normal. And I think it's time for

Stephen McGhee:

all of us as leaders to stand up and say,

Stephen McGhee:

bullshit, this is not normal. We do not need to

Stephen McGhee:

live this way as a collective. And we can come

Stephen McGhee:

together in alignment and support a movement, if

Stephen McGhee:

you will, for well being. And I feel just very

Stephen McGhee:

strongly about that as a leadership advisor,

Stephen McGhee:

because people with big visions cannot accomplish

Stephen McGhee:

those great visions without that discretionary

Stephen McGhee:

energy. It's just not going to happen. It's not

Stephen McGhee:

possible. They have all the best willpowers.

Stephen McGhee:

Overrated. Can you hear that when I say that? How

Stephen McGhee:

do you hear that, Meredith? Willpower's

Stephen McGhee:

overrated. The whole world's about willpower.

Stephen McGhee:

Force it, make it happen, go on YouTube. But that

Stephen McGhee:

kind of motivational stuff is just not right, at

Stephen McGhee:

least in my heart, because at some point I did

Stephen McGhee:

willpower before I ended up in intensive care.

Meredith Oke:

That's where willpower, all willpower all the

Meredith Oke:

time got you.

Stephen McGhee:

Eventually it will get most of us in a bad

Stephen McGhee:

situation.

Meredith Oke:

Yeah.

Stephen McGhee:

Even if it's a bad relationship, right?

Meredith Oke:

Yeah. No, I'm right there with you on the

Meredith Oke:

willpower, because it's, it's finite. It's a

Meredith Oke:

Finite resource, I found. So if it's the only

Meredith Oke:

thing I have, it's. If it's the only tool I have

Meredith Oke:

to do what I'm supposed to be doing or to do

Meredith Oke:

what's good for me or best for me, sooner or

Meredith Oke:

later it's going to fail. Like I need more tools

Meredith Oke:

in the toolkit. And especially because we were

Meredith Oke:

saying earlier about getting thrown down the

Meredith Oke:

stairs, right. It's like sometimes I, you know,

Meredith Oke:

I'm motivated by pain. The pain goes away, my

Meredith Oke:

motivation goes away, you know, and that, that

Meredith Oke:

willpower to get out of the pain is not enough to

Meredith Oke:

create a sustainable life where I don't keep

Meredith Oke:

ending up in that pain, whether it's emotional

Meredith Oke:

pain through a relationship or physical pain,

Meredith Oke:

because I, you know, I'm not doing the things

Meredith Oke:

that I need to do to keep my body healthy. There

Meredith Oke:

has to be some other. Yeah, some other blueprint,

Meredith Oke:

some other driving force besides the willpower.

Stephen McGhee:

Yeah. So then, so then the effective question

Stephen McGhee:

becomes what is that driving force? Force.

Meredith Oke:

What is it? What is it, Stephen?

Stephen McGhee:

Well, I think the most important attribute to

Stephen McGhee:

great leadership is different than what a lot of

Stephen McGhee:

people would say. I think the greatest attribute

Stephen McGhee:

to great leadership. And we'll talk in a moment

Stephen McGhee:

about what does leadership even mean? But it's

Stephen McGhee:

listening. And I don't just mean that I can have

Stephen McGhee:

an ability to listen to you, Meredith, and hear

Stephen McGhee:

what you say based on the content or the con, but

Stephen McGhee:

the context of what you share, like that's hugely

Stephen McGhee:

important. But the listening I'm talking about is

Stephen McGhee:

how good are you as a leader, Meredith, or any

Stephen McGhee:

practitioner listening? Or myself, Stephen McGee?

Stephen McGhee:

How good am I at listening to myself? How good am

Stephen McGhee:

I at listening to for those of us that are

Stephen McGhee:

spiritual, how good am I at listening to source?

Stephen McGhee:

How good am I at listening to spirit? How good am

Stephen McGhee:

I at listening to the wisdom of what I know is

Stephen McGhee:

true for me, even though people outside of me

Stephen McGhee:

think it should be different or I should be doing

Stephen McGhee:

it differently. And that's a self referential

Stephen McGhee:

skill that I've worked on my entire life because

Stephen McGhee:

I didn't grow up that way. I grew up trying to

Stephen McGhee:

please people and make other people happy to my

Stephen McGhee:

own demise. So I think that's one of the keys to

Stephen McGhee:

this great question that we're, that we're

Stephen McGhee:

pondering together.

Meredith Oke:

Wow. Yes. So, yes, because if a person is able to

Meredith Oke:

listen to their inner truth, let's say, and act

Meredith Oke:

on that, it would feel to me like that makes them

Meredith Oke:

a leader, irrespective of what their situation in

Meredith Oke:

life is whether they have a job title that

Meredith Oke:

implies that or not. But that ability to live

Meredith Oke:

from that kind of truth, like just naturally puts

Meredith Oke:

you in a leadership position. Would you say?

Stephen McGhee:

Well, I would say that that is really close to

Stephen McGhee:

aligned with what I would say. I would say that,

Stephen McGhee:

first of all, yeah, job title means nothing. Job

Stephen McGhee:

title, whether I'm a doctor or I'm not a doctor,

Stephen McGhee:

or I'm a CEO or I'm a mid level manager, or I'm

Stephen McGhee:

an administrator, administrative, or I'm a mom or

Stephen McGhee:

I'm a stay at home dad, leadership is not about a

Stephen McGhee:

tunnel in overarching simplicity. Leadership, by

Stephen McGhee:

definition is the positive influence of another.

Stephen McGhee:

So if I can positively influence another in my

Stephen McGhee:

way of being as a leader, it has nothing to do

Stephen McGhee:

with title. And so I have had in the past clients

Stephen McGhee:

and some now who I'm like, hey, dude, sis, lead

Stephen McGhee:

up. Like you think you're stuck and that you

Stephen McGhee:

can't positively influence upward in the

Stephen McGhee:

organization or sideways in the organization or

Stephen McGhee:

down in the organization. It's nothing to do with

Stephen McGhee:

title and everything to do with willingness to be

Stephen McGhee:

a leader. So for all of our listeners, it's like,

Stephen McGhee:

if you have technology skills, scientific

Stephen McGhee:

information, principles and protocols that can

Stephen McGhee:

serve this planet and you are not sharing them, I

Stephen McGhee:

would challenge you today to say it doesn't

Stephen McGhee:

matter your title, and I would say go for it,

Stephen McGhee:

because you will find, I will find. We will all

Stephen McGhee:

find discretionary energy when we share. Sharing

Stephen McGhee:

is a key to leadership. So how do you hear all

Stephen McGhee:

that, Meredith? How does that line up?

Meredith Oke:

I love that. I love that. Because as I was saying

Meredith Oke:

to you before we came on, what I really hope,

Meredith Oke:

what I really wanted for people to hear was that,

Meredith Oke:

yeah, you're, if you're like, involved in health

Meredith Oke:

and wellness, if you're listening to this

Meredith Oke:

podcast, if you know what quantum biology is, you

Meredith Oke:

have really important information. And I feel

Meredith Oke:

like sometimes people get caught like, oh, well,

Meredith Oke:

I'm not as smart as that, that guest, or I don't

Meredith Oke:

know as much as that person or I don't know. And

Meredith Oke:

I wanted, you know, I really wanted you to come

Meredith Oke:

on because I want people to hear from a, in the

Meredith Oke:

strongest possible terms that, that what you have

Meredith Oke:

to offer matters.

Stephen McGhee:

Absolutely. And you are a piece of the puzzle.

Stephen McGhee:

You matter. I love what you just said, Meredith,

Stephen McGhee:

because I think sometimes people can take

Stephen McGhee:

themselves out of the game and it's like, get off

Stephen McGhee:

the sidelines and get in the game. You might not

Stephen McGhee:

be the quarterback of the. Sorry for the sports

Stephen McGhee:

metaphor, but you might not Be the team captain.

Stephen McGhee:

But what you offer is unique, and it's not

Stephen McGhee:

complete until you offer it. Even if you're. I

Stephen McGhee:

mean, this is the funniest thing. Like, I've seen

Stephen McGhee:

this in organizations for years. Like, the quiet

Stephen McGhee:

ones, when I go in, they're the first ones I'm

Stephen McGhee:

asking questions to. You want to know why?

Stephen McGhee:

Because they're great observers, and they see all

Stephen McGhee:

kinds of shit other people don't see. And they

Stephen McGhee:

can speak it so clearly, but they don't get

Stephen McGhee:

asked. So you may never get asked, as you might

Stephen McGhee:

be going, yeah, I'm that person. I'm the one

Stephen McGhee:

observing. I'm the one that can see things. But

Stephen McGhee:

then I say, okay, it's incumbent upon you to

Stephen McGhee:

build that muscle of sharing, to build that

Stephen McGhee:

muscle of speaking your truth clearly and

Stephen McGhee:

succinctly and powerfully. You will be heard.

Stephen McGhee:

Because a lot of people just run around the

Stephen McGhee:

flower pot speaking. They don't often say

Stephen McGhee:

anything. So we all have. We all have a gift to

Stephen McGhee:

share. And. And one of the things I would hope

Stephen McGhee:

would come from our being together today,

Stephen McGhee:

Meredith, or the magic of you and me doing this

Stephen McGhee:

together, would be that someone out there would

Stephen McGhee:

get sparked into the trueness of who they are and

Stephen McGhee:

start leading. But leading doesn't mean telling.

Stephen McGhee:

See, people think it means telling. Another great

Stephen McGhee:

skill in leadership isn't telling. It's asking. I

Stephen McGhee:

spend most of my day asking questions. This is

Stephen McGhee:

more talking than I normally do in any given hour

Stephen McGhee:

because you having me as a guest and you're

Stephen McGhee:

asking me questions, but normally I'm asking

Stephen McGhee:

questions. And questions can also be a great form

Stephen McGhee:

of leadership.

Meredith Oke:

And then what do you do? What's next? What else?

Stephen McGhee:

Listen. So again, most people are listening for

Stephen McGhee:

what I call agreement. So there might even be

Stephen McGhee:

guests out there right now listening for

Stephen McGhee:

agreement. It's fine. It's not a judgment. Like,

Stephen McGhee:

what do I think about Steven saying, is he true?

Stephen McGhee:

Is it accurate? Is it 100% my experience? Well,

Stephen McGhee:

no, it's never going to be. But I say, why would

Stephen McGhee:

you listen for agreement when you could listen

Stephen McGhee:

for alignment? Like, what do we really have in

Stephen McGhee:

common as a collective? Speaking of quantum

Stephen McGhee:

biology, what a beautiful name, the Quantum

Stephen McGhee:

Biology Collective. Because we're going to have

Stephen McGhee:

different opinions on different things,

Stephen McGhee:

especially in this field of quantum biology,

Stephen McGhee:

because it's emerging. But there's also a lot of

Stephen McGhee:

things we can all agree on that we can align on.

Stephen McGhee:

And that's where we're powerful. We're powerful

Stephen McGhee:

when we're aligned. And one of the. I'm not going

Stephen McGhee:

political here. But I'm just gonna say that one

Stephen McGhee:

of the biggest problems we see in corporations,

Stephen McGhee:

one of the biggest problems we see in our

Stephen McGhee:

country, one of the biggest problems we see in

Stephen McGhee:

the world is people are listening for agreement.

Stephen McGhee:

And when they listen for agreement, they hear

Stephen McGhee:

something they don't believe in, and now they're

Stephen McGhee:

ready to fight. And when they're ready to fight,

Stephen McGhee:

we've created resistance. And when we've created

Stephen McGhee:

resistance, there's no coming together. Mother

Stephen McGhee:

Teresa said it best. She said, I am not against

Stephen McGhee:

war. I am for peace. That's nuanced leadership.

Stephen McGhee:

So people out there, like, against things, like

Stephen McGhee:

being against Western medicine is one example.

Stephen McGhee:

I'm not against Western medicine. I'm for

Stephen McGhee:

functional medicine based in quantum biology. And

Stephen McGhee:

that's what I would speak to if I ever had enough

Stephen McGhee:

knowledge to do it. I know enough to be dangerous

Stephen McGhee:

on that topic. But because of your guests that

Stephen McGhee:

I've learned it, I want them to hear that I've

Stephen McGhee:

applied stuff from what Peter shared with me, who

Stephen McGhee:

I adore as a leader. Peter's a great leader

Stephen McGhee:

because he's a great listener. Would you agree?

Meredith Oke:

I would agree. Yeah.

Stephen McGhee:

But he's also, when you ask him, hey, what are

Stephen McGhee:

the 10 things you do to build your energy system?

Stephen McGhee:

Well, he can go there. He can go there. And he's

Stephen McGhee:

helped me apply it. So those are all examples of

Stephen McGhee:

what our topic is today. Leadership.

Meredith Oke:

Yeah. And I'm really interested in this idea of

Meredith Oke:

listening for agreement because it's something. I

Meredith Oke:

wasn't thinking of it in those terms, but I think

Meredith Oke:

it's kind of similar that I was thinking about

Meredith Oke:

recently. It's sort of like the operating system

Meredith Oke:

under whatever it is, whatever else is going on.

Meredith Oke:

So I can have. You gave a great example of not

Meredith Oke:

being against Western medicine, being for

Meredith Oke:

something else. And so would. Wouldn't an example

Meredith Oke:

of, like, listening for agreement be. I'm

Meredith Oke:

listening to, say, a podcast or an interview or

Meredith Oke:

some, you know, person in the media talk about

Meredith Oke:

something to do with health and wellness. And I'm

Meredith Oke:

like. And I'm like, yep, they're correct. Yep,

Meredith Oke:

that's correct. Oh, they don't know about this.

Meredith Oke:

I'm not listening to them anymore. Or, oh, they

Meredith Oke:

said that. But I don't think that that's right.

Meredith Oke:

So I'm not right. And we kind of. I was thinking

Meredith Oke:

of it as, like, almost like a purity test. Right.

Meredith Oke:

They're like, oh. And so we sort of push that

Meredith Oke:

person aside or push everything that they said to

Meredith Oke:

one side and put them in a bucket. Of, like, I

Meredith Oke:

don't. I don't need to pay attention to that

Meredith Oke:

person because they didn't tick all my boxes. Is

Meredith Oke:

that, like, the kind of thing you're talking

Meredith Oke:

about? And, like, when we come in through that

Meredith Oke:

lane, that we're. We're missing out. We're not.

Meredith Oke:

There are things. There is a different way we

Meredith Oke:

could be listening to get value from that person,

Meredith Oke:

even if we disagree on a few things.

Stephen McGhee:

For sure. Meredith, I mean, you've summarized it

Stephen McGhee:

beautifully. It's like you're. You're shooting

Stephen McGhee:

yourself in the head. So why not have an attitude

Stephen McGhee:

where I'm going to listen for what I'm aligned

Stephen McGhee:

with, and I'm just going to leave the rest

Stephen McGhee:

behind? Now, I don't know about you, but my

Stephen McGhee:

favorite three words these days are I don't know.

Stephen McGhee:

But those were not words I used 20 years ago.

Stephen McGhee:

Very often. Like, I just. 30 years ago, I knew

Stephen McGhee:

everything. 20 years ago, I started to realize I

Stephen McGhee:

didn't know that much, but I thought I knew

Stephen McGhee:

certain things were irrefutable. Now I don't know

Stephen McGhee:

anything. And you know why? Because now I'm open

Stephen McGhee:

to the possibility that I could be wrong. And

Stephen McGhee:

when I'm open to that possibility that I could be

Stephen McGhee:

wrong, I can hear things and I learn more and I

Stephen McGhee:

can apply more. So I think it's a very

Stephen McGhee:

interesting time to be having this conversation

Stephen McGhee:

because there's just so much divisiveness in all

Stephen McGhee:

kinds of areas. You know, it's not just

Stephen McGhee:

politically, it's the world at large is kind of

Stephen McGhee:

in an argument.

Meredith Oke:

Yes. Yeah. No. And what made me think of that,

Meredith Oke:

and this is, like, a really nice framework for

Meredith Oke:

approaching it differently, is that there was. I

Meredith Oke:

was on Twitter, and there was this. Some

Meredith Oke:

activists who are doing work around getting

Meredith Oke:

toxins out of food, and they were. And very much

Meredith Oke:

focused on processed food and improving the food

Meredith Oke:

supply. And then there were some other people on

Meredith Oke:

Twitter who are like, it's all about light.

Meredith Oke:

You're so stupid that you're not even covering

Meredith Oke:

the light story. You don't even know what you're

Meredith Oke:

talking about. I just thought, oh, gosh, right.

Meredith Oke:

I'm not sure that's really helping where we want

Meredith Oke:

to go. I mean, there was someone doing great work

Meredith Oke:

in an area that needs. That needs it. And that

Meredith Oke:

lens, like, that was just, like, listening for

Meredith Oke:

hard agreement. And I just feel like there's so

Meredith Oke:

much change that's about to happen that could be

Meredith Oke:

happening. Like, and you're giving me a really

Meredith Oke:

nice framework for thinking about that. So it's

Meredith Oke:

like listening for the alignment. Where are we

Meredith Oke:

aligned?

Stephen McGhee:

Yeah, exactly. It's beautiful. I think we're in a

Stephen McGhee:

very interesting time on the planet where we're

Stephen McGhee:

going to start to see a more positive shift

Stephen McGhee:

through leadership in that direction. And that's

Stephen McGhee:

why I'm banging my sharing drum today about

Stephen McGhee:

leadership. Thirty years of being in the field,

Stephen McGhee:

the leadership space, and it's increasing.

Stephen McGhee:

There's oftentimes a breakdown before a

Stephen McGhee:

breakthrough. So let's hope that we're starting

Stephen McGhee:

to move for the breakthrough, you know, for the

Stephen McGhee:

positive solutions for a greater good for the

Stephen McGhee:

entire planet.

Meredith Oke:

And I want to get into the shifts that are

Meredith Oke:

happening. I want to get into that a little bit

Meredith Oke:

more, actually. So I'm glad you raised it. But

Meredith Oke:

before we do that, I just. What are some other

Meredith Oke:

misconceptions or myths that you feel that people

Meredith Oke:

have about the idea of leadership?

Stephen McGhee:

Oh, my God. We need four or five more hours. But

Stephen McGhee:

I think the biggest. I'm going to simplify

Stephen McGhee:

something complicated. So I know this, that I. I

Stephen McGhee:

want you all to know I'm oversimplifying

Stephen McGhee:

something complicated, but I think there's still

Stephen McGhee:

value in what I. What I would share here, which

Stephen McGhee:

is the first law of leadership is take care of

Stephen McGhee:

yourself. Breathe that in, like, let that camp in

Stephen McGhee:

your heart and your body. Let it fill your cells.

Stephen McGhee:

Take care of yourself. The biggest misnomer of

Stephen McGhee:

leadership is that you give yourself away all day

Stephen McGhee:

long, and eventually there's nothing left to

Stephen McGhee:

give. And then we have a leader that's not living

Stephen McGhee:

through discretionary energy. We have a leader

Stephen McGhee:

that's sick, and we have a leader that has a

Stephen McGhee:

great vision and maybe great wisdom and skills,

Stephen McGhee:

but they're not able to offer it. So take care of

Stephen McGhee:

yourself so that you can serve others. And so I

Stephen McGhee:

work with a lot of people in that way. They can't

Stephen McGhee:

see it. You know, I have blind spots in my life.

Stephen McGhee:

I don't know if you do, Meredith, but I have

Stephen McGhee:

blind spots, and I can't see them as their blind

Stephen McGhee:

spots. So the reflection of coaching. You're a

Stephen McGhee:

great coach. You coach people. By coaching

Stephen McGhee:

people, you can reflect back what they may not

Stephen McGhee:

see themselves. And so I believe in guiding and

Stephen McGhee:

advising and coaching for that reason, because

Stephen McGhee:

often nobody tells the leader what they can't see.

Meredith Oke:

Right.

Stephen McGhee:

So I know that's over broad, but is that kind of

Stephen McGhee:

helpful?

Meredith Oke:

Absolutely. And that could be. I mean, you were

Meredith Oke:

almost like describing a lot of moms when. In

Meredith Oke:

that. In the way that you explained it. You know,

Meredith Oke:

it's like. Or even just Parents or caregivers in

Meredith Oke:

general, you know, I gotta give and give and give

Meredith Oke:

and give and give until I drop. Or, you know,

Meredith Oke:

people in the helping professions prioritizing

Meredith Oke:

clients over self care over and over and over.

Meredith Oke:

Because that feels like that, that what we think

Meredith Oke:

it means to serve. But you're saying something

Meredith Oke:

really different.

Stephen McGhee:

Yeah, I think what you're bringing up with

Stephen McGhee:

practitioners and moms, I've never been a mom,

Stephen McGhee:

but I, but I watched and I know my own mom was

Stephen McGhee:

that way, you know, so I think that's a really

Stephen McGhee:

good example. And I also think it's another great

Stephen McGhee:

example of doctors who care so much about their

Stephen McGhee:

patients, they forget about the themselves. But

Stephen McGhee:

we all know it's just, it's, it's just like

Stephen McGhee:

anything. I don't want to walk into a doctor's

Stephen McGhee:

office and look at somebody that's ill, that's

Stephen McGhee:

giving me advice about my own wellness. I, I,

Stephen McGhee:

that's not believable to me. That's not authentic

Stephen McGhee:

to me. So I think if, if you're one of those

Stephen McGhee:

people, it's like, what would I need to do to

Stephen McGhee:

come into balance? How could I shift my practice

Stephen McGhee:

in such a way that I can take care of myself and

Stephen McGhee:

serve people more fully? And I've heard some of

Stephen McGhee:

your guests talk about new business models that

Stephen McGhee:

can support that and it's brilliant. That's what

Stephen McGhee:

is changing in that area. But through leadership,

Stephen McGhee:

anything is possible in those ways. Like, we're

Stephen McGhee:

just all going to have to get out of our comfort

Stephen McGhee:

zone and start looking at solutions that we

Stephen McGhee:

didn't think of last year.

Meredith Oke:

Right. Okay. So listening, listening for

Meredith Oke:

alignment over listening for agreement, taking

Meredith Oke:

care of ourselves as a form of leadership, that

Meredith Oke:

is really powerful. Right. Because I think so

Meredith Oke:

many of us struggle with that idea. It's like,

Meredith Oke:

well, if I'm going to take care of myself, that's

Meredith Oke:

not selfish. Exactly. Or, but certainly to the

Meredith Oke:

side of my leadership responsibilities. And yeah,

Meredith Oke:

it's really powerful for you to say no. That's

Meredith Oke:

not, that's not the right way around.

Stephen McGhee:

Well, you just said the most important, you said

Stephen McGhee:

the most important word in the, in our language

Stephen McGhee:

for leadership. And that is the word no. And I

Stephen McGhee:

say to my clients, clear boundaries are not

Stephen McGhee:

barriers to the heart. So people think that

Stephen McGhee:

saying no is a bad thing in some way. But again,

Stephen McGhee:

I said earlier, obligations are overrated. You

Stephen McGhee:

know, we're seeing this online now. Overrated,

Stephen McGhee:

underrated. Have you seen some of these old

Stephen McGhee:

thermodynamics Is underrated. Overrated. And then

Stephen McGhee:

the specialist goes on and Says about why, like,

Stephen McGhee:

it's fun. I love it. But saying no is underrated.

Stephen McGhee:

Taking care of self is underrated.

Meredith Oke:

Right. Okay. What are some other ways for us to

Meredith Oke:

think about leadership that we're probably not

Meredith Oke:

doing?

Stephen McGhee:

The power of leadership is far reaching. So

Stephen McGhee:

you're leading us in the, in this podcast. Thank

Stephen McGhee:

you for doing the podcast because you have guests

Stephen McGhee:

that come on. It takes energy, time. Yeah. You

Stephen McGhee:

know, yada, yada, yada, to prepare, to get there

Stephen McGhee:

and to put it out. Here's the thing about

Stephen McGhee:

leadership. When it's coming from a clear

Stephen McGhee:

intention of service, leadership is far reaching.

Stephen McGhee:

You will have no idea, Meredith, who will listen

Stephen McGhee:

to this, who will then take something from it and

Stephen McGhee:

go share it with their family or go share it with

Stephen McGhee:

their patient, or go share it with a stranger on

Stephen McGhee:

the street, or share it at Thanksgiving dinner or

Stephen McGhee:

a holiday dinner. It's far reaching. Who's going

Stephen McGhee:

to share this podcast with five of their friends?

Stephen McGhee:

Because there's two or three things in it that

Stephen McGhee:

are valuable. So do not underestimate your power

Stephen McGhee:

as a leader as you share as you come into the

Stephen McGhee:

alignment of what we're talking about here today.

Stephen McGhee:

You know, it's just, it's evolution. Leadership

Stephen McGhee:

is an evolution that we have, that we have a

Stephen McGhee:

shared opportunity in together. There's. There's

Stephen McGhee:

an opportunity for us to share, and that's more

Stephen McGhee:

powerful than we think.

Meredith Oke:

Right, right. And you were, you were saying

Meredith Oke:

earlier about cultivating the ability to trust

Meredith Oke:

yourself and trust your inner knowing and trust

Meredith Oke:

guidance from source. And I saw in some of your

Meredith Oke:

writing you talked about personal sovereignty and

Meredith Oke:

its relationship to leadership. How do you

Meredith Oke:

support people to cultivate that, especially, you

Meredith Oke:

know, in this world? Like, we think a lot of

Meredith Oke:

things are true that most people don't think are

Meredith Oke:

true, you know, and it's based on research and

Meredith Oke:

understanding. And so we've come to it like, in

Meredith Oke:

a. In a real organic way. And it's real and true

Meredith Oke:

for us, but it does take a certain degree of, you

Meredith Oke:

know, that ability to cultivate that personal

Meredith Oke:

sovereignty. And it can be, I don't know, tricky,

Meredith Oke:

lonely. How do you support people to get okay

Meredith Oke:

living their lives that way when a lot of the

Meredith Oke:

time we're expected to capitulate to the more

Meredith Oke:

dominant voices or what everyone else thinks,

Meredith Oke:

what everyone.

Stephen McGhee:

Else says, yeah, boy, this is one that comes out

Stephen McGhee:

of the memory bank. But I think it's it. It will

Stephen McGhee:

be the most efficient answer to your great

Stephen McGhee:

question. Let's see what you think. But many of

Stephen McGhee:

your listeners have listened to, I recommend if

Stephen McGhee:

they haven't read the book A Man's Search for

Stephen McGhee:

Meaning by Viktor Frankl. Brilliant, brilliant

Stephen McGhee:

book and well known mainstream book that has a

Stephen McGhee:

lot of wisdom in it. The piece of wisdom in it

Stephen McGhee:

that I would speak to today is the distance from

Stephen McGhee:

stimulus to response. So why would I mention that

Stephen McGhee:

today? Because most people don't have any

Stephen McGhee:

distance from a trigger, an activation. They get

Stephen McGhee:

blamed for something. There's stimulus, and then

Stephen McGhee:

we immediately respond based on familiar

Stephen McGhee:

patterns. Can you hear that? Does that make sense?

Meredith Oke:

Yeah.

Stephen McGhee:

Okay. So the practice of illumination, of great

Stephen McGhee:

leadership, of better listening, of all the

Stephen McGhee:

things we've talked about today, is to put a gap

Stephen McGhee:

and a distance between stimulus and response. So

Stephen McGhee:

I'm going to ask you a personal question. When

Stephen McGhee:

you feel activated, like you're, you're, you're.

Stephen McGhee:

You might be, someone says something to you,

Stephen McGhee:

like, Meredith, you're just dumb. And, and. Or

Stephen McGhee:

whatever the situation is, where do you feel it

Stephen McGhee:

in your body when you're activated or when you

Stephen McGhee:

react?

Meredith Oke:

Probably most often in my, in my gut. Like, like,

Meredith Oke:

like seizes up. Like your. Your stomach drops.

Meredith Oke:

Like that feeling.

Stephen McGhee:

Yeah. Okay, good. Mine starts in the gut, moves

Stephen McGhee:

up to the solar plexus, and eventually I still, I

Stephen McGhee:

can feel my head starting to get heated. Like,

Stephen McGhee:

I'm moving to that.

Meredith Oke:

Yeah.

Stephen McGhee:

So that is a beautiful thing. If you can be. If

Stephen McGhee:

you as a listener today to the podcast, you can

Stephen McGhee:

get familiar with where you're activated. It's a

Stephen McGhee:

sign. To do what? Slow down. Create a distance

Stephen McGhee:

between stimulus and response. You don't have to

Stephen McGhee:

send the email or the text right now. You don't

Stephen McGhee:

have to even reply. You could even say, listen,

Stephen McGhee:

I'm a little. That pissed me off. I need a few

Stephen McGhee:

minutes. So we'll start to retrain the brain.

Stephen McGhee:

Truly, we have the science. I haven't heard as

Stephen McGhee:

much from your podcast. Maybe it's somewhere in

Stephen McGhee:

the archives. But neuroplasticity is a real

Stephen McGhee:

thing. We can retrain it, but we have to give it

Stephen McGhee:

room to rewire. We have to move in the direction

Stephen McGhee:

of what we prefer. Earlier, I said familiar

Stephen McGhee:

patterning. So I don't want my familiar patterns

Stephen McGhee:

running my life, subconsciously or otherwise. So

Stephen McGhee:

somewhere in there, I got to get the gap. And in

Stephen McGhee:

the gap, I take a breath. And in that breath, I

Stephen McGhee:

make a new choice and I stay sovereign. And if I

Stephen McGhee:

can stay sovereign, then I can be whole. And if I

Stephen McGhee:

can be whole, I can respond more fully from a

Stephen McGhee:

place of alignment instead of reaction and start

Stephen McGhee:

a fight that now explodes and goes down the

Stephen McGhee:

rabbit hole. Into a whole host of cascading

Stephen McGhee:

problems. So oftentimes, pausing is good. And

Stephen McGhee:

that's what Viktor Frankl brought to us in that

Stephen McGhee:

book, A Man's Search for Meaning. I mean, he did

Stephen McGhee:

it for. He did it more than a moment. He did it

Stephen McGhee:

for days and weeks and months and I think years

Stephen McGhee:

on end. But he turned to the most horrific

Stephen McGhee:

extrinsic situation in Auschwitz in a

Stephen McGhee:

concentration camp, being vilified and attacked

Stephen McGhee:

and treated horribly with very little food and

Stephen McGhee:

sickness all around him, watching his friends

Stephen McGhee:

perish. He turned even that into a sovereign

Stephen McGhee:

situation. So that's an extreme example, I hope,

Stephen McGhee:

for most people listening. I mean, it's extreme,

Stephen McGhee:

but. So that's the practice, though, and your

Stephen McGhee:

willingness to practice is the key, starting

Stephen McGhee:

today. It's a simple thing. Small things done

Stephen McGhee:

consistently make major impact. There's a quote.

Stephen McGhee:

It's not mine. I don't know who said it, but I

Stephen McGhee:

use it all day, every day. Little things make

Stephen McGhee:

major changes. So those are kind of my thoughts

Stephen McGhee:

on personal sovereignty.

Meredith Oke:

Yeah, that's really deep that I hadn't ever

Meredith Oke:

thought of it that way. The ability to create the

Meredith Oke:

space that you need to stay in your own

Meredith Oke:

experience without causing a reaction, a chain

Meredith Oke:

reaction, but also without denying your own

Meredith Oke:

experience.

Stephen McGhee:

Yeah, you're not, you're not shoving your

Stephen McGhee:

feelings.

Meredith Oke:

Yeah.

Stephen McGhee:

You're not stuffing it. You're pausing. And in

Stephen McGhee:

that pause, you might even ask the question,

Stephen McGhee:

what's the best solution here? So again, that,

Stephen McGhee:

that, that kind of brings in the thing I was

Stephen McGhee:

talking earlier about asking, like you can ask

Stephen McGhee:

yourself generative questions. Albert Einstein

Stephen McGhee:

was famous for that. He didn't ask a lot of

Stephen McGhee:

people because he was too smart for most people.

Stephen McGhee:

He asked himself, how can I find a solution to

Stephen McGhee:

this? What's the way forward with this? And then

Stephen McGhee:

give those things room to incubate. Give those

Stephen McGhee:

questions that pause, that space between stimulus

Stephen McGhee:

and response time for a new solution rather than

Stephen McGhee:

an old familiar one that has an automatic

Stephen McGhee:

reoccurring dialogue to it. I know I'm throwing

Stephen McGhee:

out some leadership language today, but automatic

Stephen McGhee:

reoccurring dialogue is something everyone can

Stephen McGhee:

relate to. It's because we've said the same thing

Stephen McGhee:

so many times. It's a pattern. Doesn't mean it's

Stephen McGhee:

the right thing to say again. So it gives us room

Stephen McGhee:

for that source for the spirit to come in as

Stephen McGhee:

well. Like if it. For those of us listening to

Stephen McGhee:

believe in something like that. Like, all day

Stephen McGhee:

long when I'm working with people, I will pause

Stephen McGhee:

and say, give me a minute. And then I Listen, and

Stephen McGhee:

then I respond. And sometimes my response is, I

Stephen McGhee:

don't know.

Meredith Oke:

Right. But I would. I would imagine that

Meredith Oke:

generates trust. Right. Like, if you are willing

Meredith Oke:

to tell me when you don't know, then when you

Meredith Oke:

tell me what you think to be true, I'm more

Meredith Oke:

likely to believe you.

Stephen McGhee:

It would for me. It would for me if someone just

Stephen McGhee:

said, I'll get back to you, or I don't know. It

Stephen McGhee:

would for me.

Meredith Oke:

Yeah, right. These are just. Yeah. I keep using

Meredith Oke:

the word powerful, but it really is, I think, to

Meredith Oke:

integrate these approaches into our lives.

Meredith Oke:

Because as I was saying before, like, there are

Meredith Oke:

so many layers and levels, and there's, you know,

Meredith Oke:

healing our physical selves and healing our

Meredith Oke:

trauma. But then there's like, okay, now we're.

Meredith Oke:

Now we're ready to live life. Now we're ready to,

Meredith Oke:

as you say, get in the game. So now, what are

Meredith Oke:

the. Now what are the tools and strategies I need

Meredith Oke:

to cultivate an identity as a leader in the game

Meredith Oke:

and not as a sick person or not as a struggling

Meredith Oke:

person or a traumatized person or. Or this or

Meredith Oke:

that. It's like I'm a sovereign person now.

Meredith Oke:

Ready. Ready to engage with the world.

Stephen McGhee:

Yeah. Yeah. And Meredith, I would say, again,

Stephen McGhee:

I'll simplify a more complicated topic, but I

Stephen McGhee:

think your listeners can walk away with the idea

Stephen McGhee:

that in leadership, maybe identity is less

Stephen McGhee:

important. What my identity is, is less important

Stephen McGhee:

than who am I being in this moment. Like, we're

Stephen McGhee:

so caught up in doing. And believe me, actions

Stephen McGhee:

are important. We all. We all know that. But

Stephen McGhee:

that. That gets back to will, that gets back to

Stephen McGhee:

force. That gets back to. I know, I know I need

Stephen McGhee:

to take action on the physical level to make good

Stephen McGhee:

things happen. But what most people don't take

Stephen McGhee:

into account is who would you need to be to make

Stephen McGhee:

that happen? Who would you need to be in your

Stephen McGhee:

next patient, in your next meeting with a

Stephen McGhee:

patient, when a patient walks in? Who would you

Stephen McGhee:

need to be to heal that person? Who would you

Stephen McGhee:

need to be? Who would I need to be to get an idea

Stephen McGhee:

or a vision across to a chairman who can't

Stephen McGhee:

currently see that the current vision is causing

Stephen McGhee:

problems and cascading problems? Who would I need

Stephen McGhee:

to be? And I would say that a thousand times,

Stephen McGhee:

because who you would need to be is known through

Stephen McGhee:

this space of listening. It's known in the

Stephen McGhee:

sovereignty of your soul. Who you need to be can

Stephen McGhee:

happen in a holy instant. It can happen right

Stephen McGhee:

now. So it's not a lot of work. So people go,

Stephen McGhee:

well, I need to work on being a leader, I go, no,

Stephen McGhee:

you don't. You need to be a leader right now, be

Stephen McGhee:

a better listener. Starting today at home with

Stephen McGhee:

your child. What would that do in your life? It

Stephen McGhee:

would give you. It would give momentum and

Stephen McGhee:

velocity to the trajectory of your leadership.

Stephen McGhee:

Can you hear that?

Meredith Oke:

Yes.

Stephen McGhee:

It's simple, but it's so powerful. I'll be doing

Stephen McGhee:

a keynote in January on the power of deep

Stephen McGhee:

listening at a conference in Arizona, and I can't

Stephen McGhee:

wait to do it, because so much of what I'm going

Stephen McGhee:

to talk about is presence pays. You know, we live

Stephen McGhee:

in a world where. And I'm not knocking

Stephen McGhee:

professional sports. I love sports. You know,

Stephen McGhee:

people getting paid millions of dollars a game to

Stephen McGhee:

throw a ball. Great. Love that. But what if one

Stephen McGhee:

day we get paid through who we're being as a

Stephen McGhee:

doctor, as a practitioner, as a leader? Presence

Stephen McGhee:

pays. I think we're going to see that one day.

Stephen McGhee:

And that's a hope and a dream on my part. Like,

Stephen McGhee:

but I feel it in my bones because I'm surrounding

Stephen McGhee:

myself with more and more people that get what

Stephen McGhee:

you get that. Get that this is a. This is that

Stephen McGhee:

what seems so intangible is actually real, that

Stephen McGhee:

it actually matters who we're being.

Meredith Oke:

Yeah, no, absolutely. And that is. There's the

Meredith Oke:

question, who do I need to be in order to, you

Meredith Oke:

know, fill in the blank? I love it. I love it.

Meredith Oke:

Okay. So you mentioned a little earlier, and I.

Meredith Oke:

This is where I kind of wanted to end about, sort

Meredith Oke:

of. We've been talking a lot about personal going

Meredith Oke:

deep inside and how to move forward in an

Meredith Oke:

effective way in the world. What do you see

Meredith Oke:

happening on a wider level in terms of. And even

Meredith Oke:

just, I don't know what words you use to

Meredith Oke:

articulate it. Shifts in consciousness, planetary

Meredith Oke:

changes. I leave it open to you, but I would

Meredith Oke:

love. I know that you pay attention, and I would

Meredith Oke:

love to know what you see, what you're seeing,

Meredith Oke:

and where. Where you feel that we are.

Stephen McGhee:

I'm going to share a quick contextual story. I'll

Stephen McGhee:

make it very brief. And when we were in 2020 and

Stephen McGhee:

I knew that Covid was coming, I did what's called

Stephen McGhee:

Gestalt therapy, and I did it with COVID And for

Stephen McGhee:

those of us that don't know what gestalt is, it's

Stephen McGhee:

simply. You find an aspect inside of yourself. It

Stephen McGhee:

could be sadness. It could even be a pain you

Stephen McGhee:

have. It could be thoughts you have. And you take

Stephen McGhee:

that aspect outside of you and you have a

Stephen McGhee:

conversation with it. So Covid wasn't Something I

Stephen McGhee:

had at the time, but it was something I wanted to

Stephen McGhee:

talk to. I wanted to find out, why is Covid here?

Stephen McGhee:

So I had a conversation as if Covid could talk.

Stephen McGhee:

And I literally went from my chair to Covid's

Stephen McGhee:

chair. And I learned a lot from COVID Like, what

Stephen McGhee:

could I learn from COVID being here on the

Stephen McGhee:

planet? And so that's an example of where I think

Stephen McGhee:

we're heading. Where we're heading is there will

Stephen McGhee:

be continued challenges. But these challenges

Stephen McGhee:

that we are facing as a humanity are not

Stephen McGhee:

challenges that we cannot overcome. Does that

Stephen McGhee:

mean it'll be easy? No. Does it mean that we'll

Stephen McGhee:

be able to do things the way we always have?

Stephen McGhee:

Here's the answer. No, it won't. It will mean we

Stephen McGhee:

need to think at a higher level of consciousness,

Stephen McGhee:

a more service oriented level of consciousness to

Stephen McGhee:

find the solution. So the answer in leadership is

Stephen McGhee:

use everything that occurs in your day, in your

Stephen McGhee:

life, in your business, in your relationships,

Stephen McGhee:

for your advancement. Use everything that occurs

Stephen McGhee:

for your advancement. It's like, why is this in

Stephen McGhee:

our world? So that we can adjust, so that we can

Stephen McGhee:

evolve, so that we can come together in alignment

Stephen McGhee:

and find solutions we can't currently see. To do

Stephen McGhee:

that, we have to be in relationship with the

Stephen McGhee:

planet. We have to be in relationship with the,

Stephen McGhee:

with nature. We have to be in relationship with

Stephen McGhee:

ourselves before we can be in relationship with

Stephen McGhee:

other people. So some people are moving in a

Stephen McGhee:

different direction. They're moving into fear,

Stephen McGhee:

they're moving into againstness, they're moving

Stephen McGhee:

into separation from nature, from other people

Stephen McGhee:

that don't agree with them. This is not the

Stephen McGhee:

direction for the solution. That's the direction

Stephen McGhee:

to the past. We've already had the past for the

Stephen McGhee:

future. I think that's your question. What can we

Stephen McGhee:

expect? We can expect more challenges, but we can

Stephen McGhee:

expect that with the other things that are

Stephen McGhee:

happening on the planet, including AI, it's a

Stephen McGhee:

great example of what could be used against us or

Stephen McGhee:

it could be used for us. So in leadership, I'd

Stephen McGhee:

say get your intentions clear, find your

Stephen McGhee:

sovereignty and use it to lead and share. Use it

Stephen McGhee:

to lead and share. Because there will be lots of

Stephen McGhee:

opportunities for all of us to lead. It's

Stephen McGhee:

everywhere, the possibilities of leadership.

Stephen McGhee:

Everywhere we go. There's. We could. You could be

Stephen McGhee:

at a coffee shop and be doing something being

Stephen McGhee:

some way that could shift the direction of

Stephen McGhee:

somebody's day. So how do you hear all that,

Stephen McGhee:

Meredith? I said, I said a lot to your question,

Stephen McGhee:

but did. Was there something in there that landed

Stephen McGhee:

in terms of.

Meredith Oke:

Yeah, I mean, I think what a. What I'm really

Meredith Oke:

experiencing is just what you're saying. There is

Meredith Oke:

a lot of change, and what we know, what we're

Meredith Oke:

familiar with might not necessarily work going

Meredith Oke:

forward. So we cannot afford to not step into our

Meredith Oke:

leadership. It's time. It's needed. All of. All

Meredith Oke:

of you are needed. All of us are needed. And

Meredith Oke:

that's, I think, probably always been true, but I

Meredith Oke:

feel like it's extra true right now.

Stephen McGhee:

I think it's extra true, too. And I want to coin

Stephen McGhee:

a phrase, you just said it's worth repeating. All

Stephen McGhee:

of us are needed. Like, some of us are sitting on

Stephen McGhee:

the sideline. It's like, it's more fun to be in

Stephen McGhee:

the game anyway. I know what it's like to sit on

Stephen McGhee:

the sideline. I've done some isolation time in my

Stephen McGhee:

life, existential crises, that kind of thing,

Stephen McGhee:

where I'm like, I'm just out. Yeah, fuck it.

Stephen McGhee:

Like, I'm done.

Meredith Oke:

Forget this anymore.

Stephen McGhee:

I just got hit too hard. I'm out. But I've

Stephen McGhee:

learned from those times, and inner strength

Stephen McGhee:

comes from those times. So if you're someone

Stephen McGhee:

sitting there going, yeah, I've been

Stephen McGhee:

contemplating how I can re. Engage. It's time you

Stephen McGhee:

said it. You said it so beautifully. It's time.

Stephen McGhee:

If not now, then when is the thing.

Meredith Oke:

Yeah. And it's, you know, I don't. I just have

Meredith Oke:

this sense. I was doing some research for a

Meredith Oke:

presentation, going through looking at different

Meredith Oke:

theories of cyclical nature of history and the

Meredith Oke:

economy, and then looking at cosmology and

Meredith Oke:

different philosophies and that it just seemed

Meredith Oke:

that every single one of them was pointing to

Meredith Oke:

this moment as a moment of the words that came

Meredith Oke:

up, the most were upheaval and innovation and

Meredith Oke:

change.

Stephen McGhee:

Yeah. It's beautiful.

Meredith Oke:

And so. Yeah, that can feel scary. So the, the

Meredith Oke:

tools and the wisdom that you have shared today,

Meredith Oke:

I think are just so important, so, so important

Meredith Oke:

because we can. We can know all a whole bunch of

Meredith Oke:

stuff, and we could. But if we're not, as you

Meredith Oke:

said, if we're not sharing it, if we're holding

Meredith Oke:

ourselves back, then it's, you know, it's like,

Meredith Oke:

Like, I don't know, almost like it might get

Meredith Oke:

stuck. Like it wants to. The wisdom wants to go

Meredith Oke:

out and reach other people.

Stephen McGhee:

Yeah. And there's a. There's. There's another

Stephen McGhee:

side to this coin I want to mention, because I

Stephen McGhee:

know a number of people. I'm thinking of one

Stephen McGhee:

person in particular who is so freaking smart and

Stephen McGhee:

is so right about so many things that he shares

Stephen McGhee:

on the planet. But this particular person has an

Stephen McGhee:

arrogance that causes resistance. So there's

Stephen McGhee:

someone doing the sharing, but from who are they

Stephen McGhee:

being? They're being arrogant. And if I'm being

Stephen McGhee:

arrogant about what I'm sharing, then there might

Stephen McGhee:

be some that get past that because they're just

Stephen McGhee:

skilled at getting past that. Like I said

Stephen McGhee:

earlier, you can take the message and leave the

Stephen McGhee:

rest behind. Like, it's. What is the old saying?

Stephen McGhee:

It's the message, not the messenger. Like, I'm

Stephen McGhee:

pretty good at that, but some people aren't. So

Stephen McGhee:

this person I'm thinking of are these people that

Stephen McGhee:

are so highly arrogant would be heard by so many

Stephen McGhee:

more people if they would consider refining their

Stephen McGhee:

way of being and becoming an even greater. An

Stephen McGhee:

even greater leader to communicate what they

Stephen McGhee:

know. So, you know, I don't know if there's

Stephen McGhee:

anyone listening here that falls into that

Stephen McGhee:

category, but I know at times in my life I really

Stephen McGhee:

had to refine my message through who I was being.

Stephen McGhee:

So that's.

Meredith Oke:

That's true. And that is, I think, a bit of a

Meredith Oke:

trap. When you, when you do have information and

Meredith Oke:

knowledge and understanding that is ahead of the

Meredith Oke:

curve, it can be tempting to feel that arrogance,

Meredith Oke:

right? Like, oh, those, all those plebes, they

Meredith Oke:

haven't figured this out yet.

Stephen McGhee:

They're wrong about this.

Meredith Oke:

It's true. I think I tend to attract the people

Meredith Oke:

who go the other way and get imposter syndrome.

Meredith Oke:

But, yeah, that is definitely a booby trap to

Meredith Oke:

look out for on this journey. I'm glad you

Meredith Oke:

brought it up. At the end of the day, we're all

Meredith Oke:

just. We're all just here together, figuring it

Meredith Oke:

out as we go.

Stephen McGhee:

I think that's beautifully said. I know it's true

Stephen McGhee:

for me.

Meredith Oke:

Steven, are there any last words that are on your

Meredith Oke:

heart or mind that you'd like to share?

Stephen McGhee:

I'm just grateful to have met you through Peter.

Stephen McGhee:

I'm grateful for the work that you're doing.

Stephen McGhee:

You're sharing such meaningful, progressive work.

Stephen McGhee:

So my words, my final words aren't about

Stephen McGhee:

leadership or anything other than the fact that

Stephen McGhee:

you're doing it, you know, and that you're being

Stephen McGhee:

it and that I appreciate that about you. It is an

Stephen McGhee:

easy leading, right, isn't it? I don't know how

Stephen McGhee:

you feel, but some days you might wake up and

Stephen McGhee:

feel alone. You might wake up and feel isolated.

Stephen McGhee:

I know there's days I have that, and those are

Stephen McGhee:

the days that are most important for us as

Stephen McGhee:

leaders to get together and, and, and support

Stephen McGhee:

each other in staying in the game, so that isn't

Stephen McGhee:

so isolating and so lonely to lead. And, you

Stephen McGhee:

know, the biggest reason is really because we

Stephen McGhee:

can. But I appreciate you and what you're doing.

Stephen McGhee:

Those are my final words.

Meredith Oke:

Oh, thank you, Stephen. Well, same here. You

Meredith Oke:

know, this. This work is really needed, and I'm

Meredith Oke:

glad we're all. We're all here together figuring

Meredith Oke:

it out. Thank you for your time today and for

Meredith Oke:

sharing everything. Oh, and how can people find

Meredith Oke:

you.

Stephen McGhee:

McGee, McGH leadership dot com. I'll provide you

Stephen McGhee:

links to put in the show notes for anybody that's

Stephen McGhee:

interested in what I'm up to. There are a few

Stephen McGhee:

things coming around the first of the year, so

Stephen McGhee:

looking forward to those things.

Meredith Oke:

Wonderful. Okay, so. So when this publishes,

Meredith Oke:

those will all be in there and we can come and

Meredith Oke:

find you. And I will. I'll mention them in the

Meredith Oke:

intro as well, which I'll record.

Stephen McGhee:

Yeah. If anybody's interested, too, go to my

Stephen McGhee:

website, put in your email, and I send out some

Stephen McGhee:

written pieces. One of them's on discretionary

Stephen McGhee:

energy. I'm happy to forward those to anybody

Stephen McGhee:

interested.

Meredith Oke:

Oh, perfect. Yes. All right, so sign up for

Meredith Oke:

Steven's emails and get the wisdom in the printed

Meredith Oke:

word. All right. Thank you, Stephen. We'll have

Meredith Oke:

to do this again and continue to dive deep.

Stephen McGhee:

Thank you.

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