In this episode, Dr. Renee White chats with Alice Lucken, an IBCLC, nurse, and mother of three, who specialises in supporting families with unsettled babies. Together, they bust some common myths about reflux, providing clarity for parents who may be feeling overwhelmed.

Key Takeaways:

• Learn to distinguish between normal spit-up and reflux.
• Discover the truth behind common misconceptions about reflux.
• Explore practical tips for managing symptoms and improving sleep and feeding.

Tune in to hear Alice's expert insights and feel more confident in your parenting journey!

If you found this episode helpful, please subscribe and share it with a friend who might be facing similar challenges. You can also explore Fill Your Cup for more resources, from nourishing lactation cookies to doula services designed to support you in every step of your motherhood journey.

Learn more about Dr Renee White and Explore Fill Your Cup Doula Services

Want to be nurtured and nourished after the birth of your baby, have a peek at our doula offerings.

If you want to gobble up our famous Chocolate + Goji lactation cookies, look no further!

Follow Alice on Instagram

We hope you enjoy the episode, and as always, remember, you’ve got this!

EP 148 – Alice Lucken - What every parent needs to know about reflux

I'm Dr. Renee White, and this is The Science of Motherhood. Hello and welcome to episode 148 of the Science of Motherhood. I am your host, Dr. Renee White. Thank you so much for joining me today. We have got an awesome episode today again, oh this is busting myths this episode with an amazing expert who is an IBCLC, which is an internationally accredited lactation consultant.

She's also a nurse and she is a mum of three. But before we dive into today's episode, I have to remind you all of the amazing things that we are doing behind the scenes here at Fill Your Cup. For all those playing at home, whilst I'm not in front of the microphone, I am leading the charge at Australia's first doula village.

It is something I absolutely absolutely Love doing, and we are almost booked out for all of our services in our Melbourne team, but we still have some capacity in Tassie and New South Wales. So that would be Sydney and Newcastle. So if you are looking for some doula services, if you are tired, if you are overwhelmed, if you are hungry, and you have got a bubby or a bubby on the way, maybe consider getting a doula.

We're essentially known as the Mary Poppins for mothers. And we see it, time and time again, families who, you know, partner or non birthing person, might have a small business and they can't take time off work or, your friends and family are international and there's just, you know, not much of a village around you.

And you're starting to kind of panic about what that's going to look like and how, you're going to juggle it all. This is where a doula can absolutely be part of your team to look after you. We provide both birth doula services as well as postpartum. Obviously the birth doula services comes with an amazing amount of pregnancy care, birth mapping, birth debriefing. We are on call from 37 weeks. You have pretty much really consistent continuity of care, gold standard. Anything you want, we just pop into our WhatsApp chat, if you want a referral, a resource, a rant, whatever it is, we are with you every step of the way. And that is the same with postpartum as well. We are sending you a weekly email with, you know, all our meals to choose from you get main meal and a snack every week. We cook that fresh in your home. Oh, it is just glorious. And interestingly enough, I'm working with a family at the mument, and they were saying, you know, their first time parents, and they were kind of a little bit cautious around, oh no, we're going to be fine with meals.

We'll be totally fine, we're so good at meal prepping and, you know, mumma is an amazing cook as well. So they kind of were like, yep, we've totally got this. And it was so interesting. The first session we had, Papa Bear was like, it is extraordinary how quickly our nutrition has gone out the window because you just don't have time.

And when you do have time, you're tired and you just want to sit and recover and, have beautiful muments with your little cherubs. And so, cooking goes out the window. So it's really nice to have someone consistently come into the house with beautiful nourishing meals and all of our meals have been curated by moi.

As a biochemist with, postpartum nutrition in mind, we are all about repleting those lost micronutrients that we have just have zapped out of our bodies by our beautiful babies as we grow them over the nine or 10 months that we have them cooking. And so every single ingredient, everything that we pair with you know, each dish, there is intention, absolute intention around all of it.

So if you are in need of a doula. Whether it be birth or postpartum, feel free to jump onto our website, ifillyourcup. com and have a look at our services. We could be your next Mary Poppins, in your postpartum or birth. All right. Let's jump in today's episode. We have Alice Lucken, who I said is an internationally recognised lactation consultant.

She's a nurse, mum of three, and we are going to be talking about something slightly controversial today. It is the topic of reflux. Now, Alice specialises in supporting families with unsettled bubbies. She really helps families identify and address the root cause of the challenges that they're facing.

But ultimately, and this is really in line with what we are here at Fill Your Cup and the Science of Motherhood, she is super passionate about empowering parents with evidence based information. And that is exactly what you will hear today in our discussion. We talk about, you know, let's create a definition around what reflux is.

How do you know if your baby's got reflux? You know, it doesn't affect breastfeeding or bottle feeding babies. We look at the diet that mumma has. Does that affect reflux? And obviously, you know, some red flags around when you should seek medical professional help as well. And I guess, you know, in synchrony, how do you manage it?

Like, how do you manage the juggle of a bubby with reflux? And then we top it off with, of course, some myths around it. So I think you're going to have super, super great time with the chat with me and Alice, get your pen and paper ready. If you are someone who is. Really challenging with this at the mument, I think you're going to have lots and lots of value on it.

All right, let's hear from Alice. Okay, so Alice, let's talk about reflux. This is Oh man, the amount of, okay, let me tell you about the things that I've heard about reflux. And then that I think will just set the tone. Cause I don't think I'm alone in this. I've heard everything from reflux is complete BS and it doesn't actually exist, and it's just like, it's something else. And then I've like seen, you know, friends, family, clients go through this and they're like, this is not nothing like this is something. So we need to like, actually categorise this. What is it? How do we treat it? Like, all the things, so I think as a base level, let's just start it with.

What is reflux?

Now, sometimes that, that reflux also sometimes known as regurgitation. means that that milk, those stomach contents come right back up and out. That, sometimes gets called, and this is where it gets confusing, positing, spilling, spitting up, you know, vomiting, all of those terms actually all mean reflux.

And so gastroesophageal reflux Just means that those stomach contents are coming up through the esophagus, and if regurgitated out of the mouth, or sometimes it's called silent reflux, where, what's happening there is the, the stomach contents are coming back up the food pipe, but they're not, they're swallowed again before they come out of the mouth.

So your baby's not bringing it up and out of their mouth that they're swallowing it back down. And I think what gets really confusing here is that the word reflux describes All of these things, which is really like a spectrum of symptoms that a baby might have. And so we could call a baby that's positing, bringing up a little bit of milk, maybe once a day, isn't bothered by that.

We could say, well, technically that's reflux, but so is reflux when you've got a baby that's vomiting after every single feed. in quite great distress by that reflux in pain, struggling to gain weight, struggling to feed those that that is also reflux. And those things are not set. Those things are not the same.

They all need, support like for a parent, you know, dealing with a baby that's spitting up, even if your baby's not distressed by it can be really difficult if they're soaking through their outfits and your multiple outfit changing in the day, it's a pain and it's difficult, but it's also extremely distressing for a parent if your baby's unsettled and unhappy with that reflux and both need, you know, proper diagnosis of what's going on and proper management and support for those parents. But how that looks is very different depending on the type of reflux and what's going on in your individual situation for your baby. So yeah, I hope that explains that reflux just means something coming up through a valve the wrong way.

[00:10:14] Alice Lucken: Yeah, sure. And I think that's because colic is just, it's not a diagnosis. That's often what happens is your baby's unsettled and crying for long periods of time and you get told as a parent, Oh yeah, it's colic. As if there's like the spectrum of crying. So babies that might be a little unsettled or fussy, or, you know, an unsettled baby, a colicky baby. And, and it really that the term colic generates back years and years ago when babies were fed in really different ways and how we looked after our babies are really different, and it was sort of related to that gastro discomfort, wind, trapped wind, you know, uncomfortable digestive symptoms that babies gave off. But often what happens these days is you're just told, Oh yeah, it's colic as if, okay, that makes everything fine. And it doesn't. And I think the way it's used today, I mean, classically colic used to be described as, you know, a baby that's crying for three hours a day for at least three days a week for at least three weeks of, you know, in that month.

And then yes, your baby's got colic and it's such an old fashioned. description. And yet it's still really in the minds. I think of lots of medical practitioners about how long is your baby crying for? That's more than normal. Therefore it's colic. But colic is just an unsettled baby where we don't really know what's causing that distress and there's going to be different reasons.

So, you know, it might be trapped wind. It might be digestive discomfort that there's some research about. migraines and headaches. And we don't know what babies can't tell us. I've got a headache. We also think sometimes it's environmental, you know, it's the adjustment period. There's so many things that are going on for babies in that sort of fourth trimester period.

You know, that they're new to the world. They're trying to adjust what's happened in birth. So many things can impact this. So colic is really just a way to sort of describe an unsettled baby that's crying for more than what we would say. You can't see me inverting normal length of time. And that's where that starts to get different because what is normal?

How often should babies cry? And that's then where subjectivity starts to come in and a bit of judgment about, you know, Is this parent saying this, are they making, are they not coping? And yet I think really strongly as a, as a parent, if you are finding something difficult, then you need support with that, regardless of whether it's because your baby's unsettled for an hour or two in the evening, or your baby's crying 11 hours a day, it feels real to you as a parent, when your baby's unsettled.

For those kind of people with their air pods in, you know, pushing that pram and they're thinking, yes, I think that's me. What are some of the kind of hallmarks of that?

babies uncomfortable. So they might not want to be put down. They might want to feel like they need to be in your arms all the time. They might not be able to lie flat. So when you lie them flat, they're unsettled. They're unhappy. They may be physically bringing up milk, vomiting milk after most feeds. I mean, I will say here that gastroesophageal reflux.

So that reflux that regurgitation, that reflux is physiologically normal. The stomach is a bag it's designed to hold our feed. So for babies, that's a milk feed and the valve at the top of the stomach will relax and open when your baby is swallowing milk to allow the milk into the stomach, and then it closes to allow that digestive process to happen.

But that, that valve is impacted by many, many things. So if the stomach is over full, it will trigger the valve to open, to release some of the pressure. So therefore some milk can come back up and things like the tone of that valve will make a difference. Gravity will make a difference. The fact that babies are often, you know, we're designed to be upright all the time as human beings and babies often aren't. And so there are lots of things that can impact and make that reflux worse. So for the symptoms you might see in your baby is the physical bringing up of the milk or them seeming like they're swallowing milk back down, unsettled, crying.

We often see things like arching their, arching their back, which we, I think often interpret as, oh, they're in pain and discomfort with the reflux. But the thing about reflux symptoms is they're very, very general and broad. And so things like fussing when they're feeding, um, arching their back, unsettled, not wanting to be laid flat.

Actually, lots of these things relate to other baby behaviors and actually very often they relate to an infant feeding problem. And so it's, um, we think, oh, this is reflux that's causing this, whereas actually the reflux is probably a symptom of something else. So the reflux itself is a symptom of an underlying issue.

[00:15:30] Alice Lucken: So, uh, infant feeding issues. And I think this is where the, some of the, the difficulty comes because often the, the support, the practitioners that we reach out to, to help us with the symptoms our baby has, those symptoms could, could, yeah, could be reflux, but they also could be, um, an infant feeding things, uh, allergies sometimes give us those symptoms.

But so what we do is we, we get, we, those babies get diagnosed as having reflux and then we treat the symptom rather than looking for the, the root cause and things like back arching, um, is often given as a symptom of reflux. We think that the baby's arching their back because of that reflux is happening.

Whereas actually what's happening is often there's an issue with feeding. Baby's not comfortable. The position's not right. The attachment's not right. And so what's happening with the feeding is therefore causing the cause in the reflux. And unfortunately, lots of practitioners that we reach out to for support are not skilled in identifying or assessing or supporting families with infant feeding. And of course they want to help. They don't want your baby to be in pain or discomfort or for you to be struggling. And so we tend to treat the symptom of reflux rather than looking for an underlying root cause. So yeah, very often in my experience, it's, it's rooted in infant feeding.

Absolutely. I will say here though, again, remember that some reflux is physiological, normal reflux, but how we care for our babies, how we feed our babies can make a big difference to that. Um, so carrying our babies more and keeping them close, keeping them upright, all of those sorts of things, not overfeeding our babies do make a difference to reflux. So even if it's just actually physiological reflux, there's still something we can do to help your baby.

Cause you know, you, you hear all stuff that you just hear on the grapevine, you know, like you've got, I think I always joke, you know, Tracy from Austin, Texas on the, you know, the, the parenting platform. I'm always like saying, do not just trust some random person on a parenting platform, do not slip into the Google rabbit hole.

But I hear people who are like, Oh, well, you know, bottle fed babies, um, they might be sucking in more air and like, you know, that will kind of make pockets of air and then they're more likely to have reflux or colic or something like that. Have you seen anything out there where breastfed versus, you know, formula fed or bottle fed baby that makes a difference at all?

[00:18:26] Dr Renee White: Women's health research? What is that? What is that?

You know, they, you know, it's paid for by a company that's trying to sell you their product. They're not going to tell you, oh yeah, we realised that, uh, all these babies have these issues. So we have to be really cautious about where that research is coming from too. I think that the fundamental thing here is breastfed babies and bottle fed babies can both suffer with reflux.

And you're absolutely right there to talk about air because air intake is a huge factor in reflux. It's one of the biggest causes of reflux. I think it's really important to say that. Bottle fed babies and breastfed babies can both have issues with feeding that cause excess air intake, but it's often an infant feeding issue.

And so how we feed our baby and what we're feeding them and the way that we're doing that, how much we're doing that makes a huge difference here. And I think we are a bit obsessed with wind as a culture and everything comes down to trap wind. And yet if a baby is feeding optimally, be it bottle feeding or breastfeeding, then that the amount of air that they're getting should be minimal, is minimal.

It's not a huge issue. And so often when that is an issue, air is an issue, it's to do with how your baby's feeding. And we can change things about positioning, attachment, and with bottle feeding, the way that we do that, that can make a difference. All we need to start identifying, is this a dysfunction thing here about how the tongue's moving?

Is there an oral restriction? That's tension makes huge difference to how babies are able to effectively feed. And those things are not always quickly fixed. So we sometimes think, Oh, okay, it must be this. Why is that not better now? And that's because, you know, it takes time for babies, tongues to learn how to function and those muscles to work in different ways when they've been compensating and so many factors make a difference here. You know that your pregnancy, the your birth and those early days, it all it all impacts that. And so, yeah, but wind is a big one, and we can reduce that. I also have big, I get slated for this quite a lot because I sometimes think that we overwind our babies. And that actually, I think that sometimes the process of winding or burping your baby probably causes the reflux.

If somebody was to be patting on my back whilst I just had a big meal and my stomach was already full, it's going to trigger the opening of that valve. Generally speaking, when we're trying to help babies. move their wind because they can't move it like we can as adults. They do rely on us to help them.

It should be just gently gentle movements or putting them in certain positions to help that wind. If it's trapped, get under that pipe and up and out. I think vigorous tapping away and worrying so much about wind. actually probably aggravates reflux.

[00:21:45] Alice Lucken: Okay.

It's almost like a FODMAP thing. Onions, garlic, anything acidic. And then we're going to take dairy out as well. We're just going to strip it there. And I like, I'm really hoping that you tell me that this has got nothing to do with reflux because I just see the light dwindle out of their eyes. Like if someone said to me, no garlic, no onion, no dairy, I'd be like, what's left, like, please tell me, Alice, is this a myth?

Parts of those proteins are passing into our breast milk and it's going to our baby. It's designed that way. Actually, breastfeeding is incredible for that. We are giving our baby exposure to all of these different proteins in our diet, which actually we know from research is really helpful. It helps reduce the risk of allergies.

If babies are getting exposure to these proteins, however, baby's immune systems and baby's digestive systems are immature, they're undeveloped. They've got a lot of growing and developing to do. And so they are more sensitive in those early months, how we birth our babies, how we, look after and care for our babies.

The medical approach has massively changed this. There's a huge amount of antibiotic use, um, lots of, you know, change to our gut and our microbiome. And we know that I think in some cases, um, as, as a woman, Our guts are probably a bit leaky. And so maybe higher levels of protein are getting across in our babies.

They're getting exposure to proteins in a bigger form or earlier on, or that microbiome, the gut. It just hasn't got the enzymes, the bacteria that it, that it needs to respond to that. And so I think that there definitely is a rise in, in babies responding and be that sensitivity, be it allergy to the things that we're eating.

However, I also think that we're very quick to jump to that conclusion that it must be something that I'm eating because we know that actually, generally speaking in breast milk, very little protein is getting to our baby. So if they're reacting to it, they've got to be pretty super sensitive to it and when we speak again about, you know, like I said, with reflux and colic, those symptoms are so overarching and broad.

So the symptom of an unsettled baby or reflux, that's a symptom of lots of different things. It could be lots of different things going on. And so sometimes I think it's often offered as if it's a quick suggestion of, oh, it could be your baby's allergic to dairy. Take it out of your diet and see, and it's very, I think it's quite dangerous actually because it might be, but also it's more likely to be an issue with infant feeding.

So let's address that. Let's identify that and let's optimise that where we can and then see what's, what's going on because we don't want to take things out of mum's diet because a, it stops that exposure to the baby. So they're not getting that developing of that tolerance to develop their immune system.

For you as a mum, it's not easy to do, and it's sort of suggested like it should be and I think that's another thing we put on mums like, oh, just knock dairy out. And then that blame is fully on you that if you eat something with dairy in, or actually you just want a bit of chocolate. Yeah. And then you have a slip up.

[00:25:37] Alice Lucken: And so it's sort of another thing for you to have to try and be perfect with as a mum and you're already trying to breastfeed in this situation, which is way more challenging than it's ever given credit for. It's really hard at times to do. It's wonderful, but flipping hard too.

And so let's start taking stuff out of your diet. It makes it even harder to do. And, and we have to be careful at the nutrients that you're getting too. I think that too often, too quickly suggested and if, if it was as straightforward as yes, babies react to these things. Surely we'd see this in other cultures.

So in other cultures, you know, our diets really vary depending on where we live in the world. And it's not the case that babies that live in cultures where maybe they eat lots of garlic and onions and spicy food, those babies don't have more colic. They don't have more reflux. Fact up, actually, it's the opposite.

They have less. And so actually, when we start to look at this, it's about how we care for our babies, how we feed our babies and what we do to sort of, to manage those things. I'm not saying that it isn't the case. It absolutely is. And many, many of the families that I support, allergy is a big factor here in reflux. And sometimes that's overlooked and sometimes it's jumped too, too quickly. And so it's about managing and supporting families in the correct way with that information.

At what point in time do you kind of go I need to go seek a medical professional, whether it be, a IBCLC or, you know, like a GP or, or something like that. What's the kind of like, is there a tipping point or are there kind of compounding factors that you would go, okay, if you ticked all these boxes, that's when we would, you know, seek further assistance.

[00:27:40] Dr Renee White: I love a good pun Alice, throw them all in.

It might just be that you feel, oh my baby is a little bit unsettled and I'm not sure this is right. It might be that you think something's really wrong with my baby. I think whatever that feeling is to you, when something is, Not right. Or when you're finding this really tough to cope with, like, this is just tough.

That's when you should reach out for absolutely. That's when you should reach out for support. I think the difficulty comes for families is that often that first bit of support might not bring you the information you need. So often what we do is we Google something first, and if you Google something, it'll tell you, I mean, I'm pretty sure within the first three search results of anything, it'll tell you you've got a brain tumor when you put something in.

[00:28:55] Alice Lucken: And it just, it just feeds to that panic. And so sometimes when we're reaching out to certain professionals, so I think actually, yes, your doctor often is a first port, of course, so your, your health professional, like a health visitor here in the United Kingdom or health, pediatric health nurse, if you, you know, that kind of support, your doctor.

But also I think it's really important to have that understanding that, you know, They might not necessarily have the understanding around infant feeding to help you with that. And so certainly symptoms like unsettled babies, colic, wind, reflux. Yes, seek medical advice. Absolutely. And there are certain symptoms you definitely would need to seek medical advice on.

So things like if your baby, um, is, is bringing up blood, um, in their vomit, then yes, you would need to seek medical advice. I would say here, if you are a breastfeeding, chest feeding parent, it's worth having a think about where that blood could be coming from. If you're, if you're new in your journey, if you've got trauma, could that blood have been ingested there, but absolutely that is a time where you might need to seek advice.

If that vomit is green, yellow in color, like that could mean that there's, there's bile. So that needs to be seen by medical professional. If your baby is in marked distress, if they have a hoarse voice, like reflux can sometimes cause respiratory, respiratory illnesses. So things like that, absolutely. And blood in the stool, those things need to be seen by a medical professional.

But we also need to be looking then wider than this. Is this an infant feeding issue? And then you need to be making sure you're getting some good support with that.

Are there drugs that people are treating reflux with versus, you know, as you said, that infant feeding, what are the types of things that are on offer?

And I know it's the same in the States is that when you approach a medical practitioner with symptoms of reflux, we very quickly jumped to the right we need to medicate. And so babies are very quickly offered medication where actually they might not need them. Now, if your baby has got true, what we call gastroesophageal reflux disease, and that's where we feel that the, the, the stomach contents, when they're coming back up, are causing inflammation in the esophagus.

And that's what's causing your baby pain, then that does need treating because we can't allow that to continue to happen and the damage to happen. And there's babies in a lot of pain, but because of the broad symptoms, what's often happening is babies where it's gastroesophageal reflux, or there's an underlying cause are being diagnosed and treated like babies that have got gastroesophageal reflux disease.

And those things are not the same and there's a lot of, it's quite scary actually about the evidence and the research behind lots of these medications that babies are treated for, for reflux. That A, they don't, they don't work. That B, they've got quite a risk of, um, side effects and long term effects. And babies should not be on these medications for long periods of time.

And, and that's just not the case about how these babies are being treated. And I think it's, scary about some of the long term impacts of this. Now, if your baby needs them, then of course, but for those babies that don't need them, when we could approach this in a different way, or certainly be looking for a root cause so we can minimise the amount of time that your baby's on those medications for, then in my opinion, that's absolutely how we should be supporting families is with a more holistic approach to not just trying to treat a symptom, to try to identify a root cause.

And I think support the family in this because it is flipping hard looking after a baby that's unsettled. And these things are not often quickly fixed. So you've still got to cope with a baby that's refluxing or unsettled. So this is a lot as much about the parent and how we support you as a parent, as it is about how we support you and your baby.

Oh my God, I've got to do the laundry. I've got to cook a meal. I've got to take the dog for a walk. I've got to water the plants. Oh, my toddler's running around. Like none of that is going to help with actual sitting down and relaxing, which we all know, beautiful loads of oxytocin, things like that. So yes, treatment is not necessarily for the baby. It is perhaps for the mumma that we need to be focusing on.

I think that we've done an injustice to motherhood by expecting that we can, can do it all and we can achieve it all. And we can go back to work and cope with, um, doing all of these things. Whereas actually, you know, having a baby is hard work. They need, they need our bodies. They need our care. They take time to adjust to the world.

And, and so some of the things we expect them to do, they, they don't do. And then you feel like you're failing because that's that my baby's not doing this. Whereas actually, if we can understand that and lean into it for the time that that takes, because you know, these things pass, everything does pass.

It doesn't mean it's easy while you're in it, but knowing, okay, this is where we're at. And these are the things that I can do to help us in this time. It doesn't mean you're going to stay there, but I get it as a mum that you've never feel like it's going to get any better, but yeah, turning off that noise from outside that tells you you're failing when you're not, you've just got a baby. Yeah. Yeah, it can just help increase your confidence that you're not doing it all wrong.

Or, and, and the side note also is based on that learning and your experience. What are the types of things that you offer families as a bit of a reprieve?

[00:36:02] Dr Renee White: That's how we get to this point right now. Do all the things that I didn't tell myself to do six years ago.

And I was like, oh, saying to my husband, but what about this? And why is she doing this? And what should we do? And he said, he turned around to me and said, love your health visitor. What would you tell a mum if she asked you those questions? And I was like, tell her this. And I tell her this. And I'd say, how about this?

He's like. Tell yourself that. And I'm like, oh yeah. And you can't when you're in that space as a parent. It's so overwhelming and you're so emotionally involved. Your brain does not function in the capacity as a professional. You are parent here and you know, you're, yeah, like emotionally invested in all of that.

It's so tricky. And so I think that a lot of what I do now comes from the fact that I felt helpless. I felt that because he was, he was thriving in terms of gaining weight and we didn't have any breastfeeding problems, but it all linked to infant feeding and I didn't know I didn't have that knowledge at the time.

And so I thought, I thought our only options were to give medication, which I didn't want to do. Cause I thought, well, if you're telling me it's normal, why would I treat something with medication that's normal? And we were just told we had to wait it out. So that's, that's what we did. I just counted the days and crossed them off and hoped that we were one day closer to having a baby who didn't cry for 24 hours solid. And I just, now I look back, I think, oh, I, yeah, I just wouldn't wait. I just wouldn't think that I was helpless and couldn't do anything. And that doesn't mean like you said, that there's a silver bullet, that if I done this, it would have fixed everything, but to feel more empowered, that there are things that you can do that might help your baby and empowered to, you know, help you cope when you have an unsettled baby.

Um, yeah, that's why I teach and help parents with those things now. Cause I don't want them to have that experience of, of, of parenthood that I had. I want them to, to, to find, find the joy where they can, because it's, It's hidden when you have an unsettled baby. It's hard to find.

Any pearlers that you would like to share with us before we jump into our rapid fire?

Now that's true. And that's not true in that. Yes, all babies will have a lesser tone in the valve at the bottom of the esophagus, the top of the stomach than adults because they are babies and they have to grow and develop that tone. But some babies may have lower tone than others and tone will impact that.

But also there's so many other things that will trigger that valve that, um, to open more. And so it's about understanding and managing that um, we know that lots of babies will get reflux. But not all babies get reflux and so we have to figure out what's going on for your baby and then approach and manage that in the right way for your baby.

So it's not as simple as it just being that your baby has an underdeveloped tone, that might be a factor in it, but let's have a look and see if there's something else that's causing your baby to reflux, bring up more milk, um, than just the normal gastroesophageal reflux that we do see sometimes.

[00:39:54] Alice Lucken: Okay. Yeah, I'm ready. .

[00:40:16] Alice Lucken: Okay. So there are lots of things, but I think, I think certainly maybe to my previous self, but I would say that it's okay to not enjoy it a hundred percent of the time, because it's so much harder than you can anticipate. And you can, I think, preparing is so key, like having a really good, a consult with an IBCRC before you have a baby to help you prepare for breastfeeding to know what to expect and like good antenatal preparation will help you having that knowledge before can really help you, but nothing can prepare you for the emotional rollercoaster that becoming a parent, becoming a mother is.

And so be gentle with yourself because you will not know it all. It is a learning process and you don't need to be perfect and get it right. A hundred percent of the time, you need to be gentle and kind that you are learning as you go and know that just because you are not enjoying it right now does not mean you are a bad mother.

If it's hard, reach, yeah, reach out for support because, um, yeah, we're not supposed to do this on our own.

Absolutely. I mean, I've seen it so many times. I still have to tell you this story, Alice. I remember, um. This is before I had a child, so I feel like I already had a clue in and I remember a work colleague came in to work and she was telling me how she turned up to her mother's group and she was feeling really, inadequate as a mum because she turned up with literally like a packet of biscuits that she'd like purchased from the local and she said oh my goodness there was this woman and she turned up and there was like just a platter of like all these different baked goods and you know they were like wrapped in this beautiful like baking paper and everything and like all of things and she was just sitting there telling me how she how shit she felt as a mum because she's like oh my god like I can't even bake biscuits or whatever and I just point blank looked at her and I said she bought them just like you and she's like what and I'm like absolutely either that like she's bought them from a bakery or whatever and if she didn't, then something else is lacking in her life.

Like, don't worry about it. Like, it's totally fine. You can please do not judge yourself on a packet of biscuits.

And we think, why am I not out of my pyjamas? And it's because that's not real. It's, this is really tough to be, to be a parent. And I like as a story back, I can remember with my, my third, and I was a health visitor and I'd gone to the supermarket and she was on the edge, you know, she was a bit antsy, before we went in, she was about, I don't know, 13, 14 months. And I got to go. And I got to go in the supermarket. And we nipped in and those flipping toys outside the supermarket that they want to ride on. You know, I just like, why do they do that to parents? This is already difficult enough. And so, um, I was like, no, no, no, we haven't got time for that. And I, I popped her in the, I couldn't get her in the seat cause she wouldn't go in the seat.

So I just popped her in the trolley and we went in and I put a few things in the, I've got literally three things in the trolley and she starts with the, like where the seat is banging it against the trolley thing while she's screaming and screaming. And I was like trying to just quiet her and placate her and talk to her.

And I can't access any of that stuff in my brain about good parenting. I'm thinking, what am I supposed to be doing in this situation? But all I'm thinking is, I hope there aren't any of my clients in this supermarket. I was a health visitor. I'm like, what if they see me? This is awful parenting. And I couldn't sort it.

And I was like, this is ridiculous. What am I doing? And so I scooped her up and put her underneath my arm and carried her like I was stealing her out of the supermarket. and went back to the car. We did that wrestle with the car seat, you know, when like the body goes all stiff and you have

[00:44:41] Alice Lucken: And my knee is like trying to rest in her groin and I'm not trying to damage my child, but get her in her car seat. And we, and we drove off and we'd literally gone two minutes down the road and she fell asleep. And I just,

[00:44:55] Alice Lucken: And I burst into tears. This is my third baby. I burst into tears and I just thought, Oh, she was tired. Like, why can I not pick up on those cues? And it's because we're trying to do too much. We're trying to, you know, get the shopping and do all these things. We can't tune into that instinct as a parent that says a child needs this from me right now.

Those things don't matter. We just try to juggle too much. Don't we?

[00:45:34] Alice Lucken: Don't look at me. Don't look at me.

[00:45:50] Alice Lucken: What did I read? I mean, that's interesting. I, I didn't read, I did have books, but I was trying to think that my kids are well into their teens now.

The only one I can ever remember is the one I didn't read. And, and, um, I, I'm a big fan of Dr. Pamela Douglas's book, The Discontented. Um, Baby, but that's a brilliant book, but there's one that's got a similar title to that about in a very different approach, looking at sleep. And this had been recommended to me quite a few times that I needed this book that would help my baby magically sleep.

And I literally read a chapter of this book when my, with my first, and I remember thinking, I'm not reading this. This is rubbish because. It was so like descriptive about, Oh yeah, your baby needs to do this. Then I need to feed your baby then. And like, I didn't have all my infant feeding knowledge then, but I remember thinking you can't make a baby feed when you want them to feed for how long you want them to feed.

How can I tell him he has to go to sleep? But what, but what I think back now, which is hilarious is that. The thing that made me not like that book wasn't the fact that like now I look back and think there's no evidence. There's no biological research to any of this. The thing that made me think I'm not doing this was because I thought my husband will never see our child if I follow this routine, he doesn't come home till 11 o'clock at night. Like if I follow this routine, he won't know our child exists. I'm not doing it. But now I look back and just think, Oh, I mean, I'm a big fan. Um, Professor Amy Brown has some fantastic books about infant feeding and parenting in the first year, which just really come from the research, the evidence and the reality of how it is.

So yeah, Dr. Pamela Douglas's book is great. The other book I think is great for parents. And these weren't around when I had mine, but is the, the why it matters series by Pinter and Martin. They're a fantastic collection of books about all different sorts of subjects relating to feeding and parenting, but they're not very expensive.

They're not very long and they often come with some great information in. Um, so they're really accessible to parents. So I'm a big fan of those books.

[00:47:59] Alice Lucken: No, I just couldn't, I didn't want another thing to make me feel like I'd failed. I just thought I'm not gonna be able to do this. So why am I going to put this extra pressure on my, on myself? So.

[00:48:16] Alice Lucken: Um, okay. Way more junk than I should, because I think that there should be like some feng shui calm thing about it.

So every now and again, I'll be like, right off the things you can find on my bedside table are books. So, and, and there'll be, um, a business book of some sort to try and help me learn how to be a better business woman and run a successful business. There'll be an infant feeding book of some description on there.

And then. They'll be my book from book club. So whatever that is that this, this month, and then my Kindle with, which where I would keep the books that, you know, I really, I like to read if I'm not reading those other books. So I've usually have about three or four on the go, which, um, I didn't used to, but yeah, now in this role, I, I like different books for different things.

So yeah, lots of books.

[00:49:12] Alice Lucken: Yeah, I love it. I don't love it so much for sometimes like with, um, my infant feeding books or a business book because you can't access, like you can't go back so easily.

[00:49:21] Alice Lucken: Yeah. Or I fold pages or stick tabs in and things that I want. But I love the idea of just being able to carry it in my handbag if I'm stuck somewhere to read. And nothing better than when you've finished a great book, being able to just go and look straight away for another book by that author that you loved. I'm like, right, I'm going to start reading this one now. So yeah, Kindle's great.

You just go It's in your Kindle. And guess what? You're up till 2 a. m. in the morning and you're not,

[00:50:11] Dr Renee White: That is a big, that's a big sell because yes, my husband was like, for goodness sakes, turn the light off Renee. And I was like, I can't, I can't see. And yeah, anyways. Kindle saves, saves marriages since, you know, however long they've been going on for. Um, Alice, it has been so lovely to chat with you. Um, before we wrap up and say goodbye, can you let the listeners know where they can find you, where they can have a chat with you?

And also you do, as you've kind of alluded to, you've got like a program and things like that, that, um,

You can DM me. I'm always, I always respond to my own DMS. And so somebody sends me a message or let's have a a chat about that. And then I work one to one with families where they need infant feeding support, but I also run a program called the Root to Calm program. So it's for families with unsettled babies.

So most of the families would have issues with reflux, but also unsettled babies, so colic allergies, where we take a really serious stepped approach to work out what's going on because often by the time families come to me, they've done so much Googling or heard so many things that overwhelm is huge and knowing where to start and what's going on.

So what we do is we strip it all back. We go right back to the beginning and we understand what's going on with normal baby behavior and biology, but then we take a really good look at infant feeding. Let's optimise things and then look at some of the things that can be causing the symptoms of reflux colic and support along that.

And there's, support from a holistic sleep consultant. I have a pediatric dietician, cranial psychotherapist. It's a really holistic approach, but also the huge focus is about you as mum. So it's about how do we support you? So there's a lot of meditation, minds, mindset work, confidence building, um, to try and support you on this journey of parenting when you've got an unsettled baby.

Um, so yeah, if you're interested in, and you're struggling, come and talk to me. Let's see if, if the kind of support I offer is what you need.

That's just amazing. I love those holistic programs because as we've already said, That this is a big picture thing, you know, it's not just reflux of itself, you know, there's so many factors that are going on and, um, as we already kind of touched on, sometimes it's about supporting the mum, you know, not just the baby.

There's weekly coaching so you can come every single week and talk to me and we'll say, okay, where are we at? Let's look at this. And we do it in really small bits, but support it. So you listened to and heard all the way. And I offer coaching calls at sort of, you know, a couple of different times so that families.

All over the world because I've had, you know, parents in America as well, um, that come and access that. So you get that 12 months, that's a whole 12 month program. You can come and access that support for as long as you need it. And you can dip in and out when things are sort of, um, if you're coming against more challenges.

So yeah, it's about knowing that there's somebody that's listening to you and supporting you, not just sort of saying, oh yeah, it's this. Off you go.

And I know that the listeners, like, if you do not have your pens and papers ready. Like there was so much gold in that. So thank you so much. We've not talked about this, um, ever on the podcast. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

[00:54:36] Dr Renee White: Absolutely. All right, everyone. Until next time. See you. If you loved this episode, please hit the subscribe button and leave a review. And If you know someone out there who would also love to listen to this episode, please hit the share button so they can benefit from it as well. You've just listened to another episode of The Science of Motherhood, proudly presented by Fill Your Cup, Australia's first doula village.

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