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Uncovering Hidden Histories: Empowering the Self Through Storytelling
Episode 185 • 5th November 2024 • TonyTidbit: A Black Executive Perspective • TonyTidbit ™
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Episode Audio Link: https://podcast.ablackexec.com/episode/uncovering-hidden-histories-empowering-the-self-through-storytelling

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In this episode of the Black Executive Perspective Podcast, host Tony Tidbit speaks with Dr. Jewell Parker Rhodes, a New York Times best-selling author and educator. They discuss the significant challenges and the importance of African American history, the impact of book banning, and the cultural inheritance of storytelling. Dr. Rhodes shares personal experiences and her journey, highlighting how storytelling builds self-esteem, empathy, and cultural appreciation. They cover various aspects of her work, including her book 'Ghost Boys,' the Tulsa race riot-themed novel 'Magic City,' and her latest book 'Will's Race for Home.' The discussion underscores the critical need for diverse literature in education and its potential to inspire and empower future generations.


▶︎ In This Episode

00:00: Introduction to the Podcast

00:51: Welcome and Acknowledgements

01:51: The Importance of Black History

02:22: Introducing Dr. Jewell Parker Rhodes

03:54: Dr. Rhodes' Journey

08:30: The Power of Storytelling

11:04: Challenges in Education and Representation

22:20: Impact of Dr. Rhodes' Work

32:53: Global Reach of 'Ghost Boys'

34:04: Magic City and the Tulsa Race Massacre

41:12: Exploring Black Brother, Black Brother

51:22: New Book: Will's Race for Home

57:06: Final Thoughts and Call to Action

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Transcripts

Speaker:

Dr. Jewell Parker Rhodes: And

never once was I ever given

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a book by a person of color.

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Tony Tidbit: That's insane.

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Dr. Jewell Parker Rhodes: Yes.

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That's it.

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It doesn't, it doesn't happen today.

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We have new diverse folks,

particularly for youth and for adults.

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But what you get again, is that book

banding, that sense of suppression

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that they're taking us backwards.

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And it fits in line with that

whole idea that, you know, blacks

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were forbidden to read and write.

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We weren't supposed to be educated.

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So in one form or another, you can

call it black, It's still continuously

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about suppression of power and

voice and denigrating rather than,

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you know, welcoming these wondrous

citizens into the American system.

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Tony Tidbit: We'll discuss race and how

it plays a factor, how we didn't even talk

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about this topic because we were afraid.

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BEP Narrator: Executive perspective.

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Tony Tidbit: Welcome to a Black

Executive Perspective Podcast.

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A safe space where we discuss all

matters related to race, especially

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race in corporate America.

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I'm your host, Tony Tidbit.

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And we are live at WNHU 88.

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7 on the Richter Dowdy University

of New Haven podcast studio.

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We want to thank.

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The University of New Haven for

allowing us to be able to record

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this, uh, important topic at a

black executive perspective podcast.

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The students are back.

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So go chargers and have a great semester.

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We want everybody to graduate.

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All right.

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Number two, we want you to continue to

follow our partnersCODE M Magazine, whose

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mission is first to save the black family.

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By saving the black man.

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So please check them out at CodeMMagazine.

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com.

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That is CodeMMagazine.

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com.

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So today, as you guys all are aware.

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Black history faced significant

challenges, yet its relevance is

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more crucial than ever before.

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Engaging with history fosters self esteem,

purpose, and resilience by highlighting

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the trials and triumphs of our ancestors.

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Without understanding history, we

lose connection to our cultural

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heritage, which is essential.

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For personal growth and empathy.

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Our guest today, Dr.

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Jewell Parker Rhodes will share

her journey and discuss the

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importance of African American

history through storytelling.

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She will show how these narratives

build self esteem, empathy, and a deeper

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appreciation of cultural heritage.

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Let me tell you a little bit about Dr.

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Rhodes.

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Dr.

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Jewell Parker Rhodes is a New York Times

best selling and award winning educator

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and writer for both youth and adults.

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She is the Virginia G.

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Piper Endowed Chair at Arizona

State University and the founding

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director of the Virginia V.

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Piper Center.

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for creative writing.

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Dr.

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Rhodes focus on environmental and social

justice and believes through multi

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dimensional character driven stories,

barriers break and empathy blossoms.

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Her talent is to combine African

American heritage and history in both

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content and style and to emphasize

it's relevant for modern audiences.

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Dr.

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Jewel Parker Rhodes, welcome to a Black

Executive Perspective Podcast, my sister.

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Dr. Jewell Parker Rhodes:

Thank you so much.

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That was just a beautiful introduction.

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I really appreciate it.

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You, you nailed the, the

essence of what I try to do.

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So thank you.

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Tony Tidbit: Well, more

importantly, thank you.

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I mean, at the day, you are touching

lives all over the world, right?

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And, you know, one of the things

that we'll definitely dive into is

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history is under attack today, right?

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And especially Black history.

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Okay.

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Absolutely.

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And the importance for, you know, African

American people and not just even African

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American people, all people, To understand

history as we, as we kick this off, you

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know, It, it, without knowing what our

forefathers and foremothers accomplish

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or the trials and tribulations or, or

all the things that, the mistakes, the,

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the, all those things, we're rutherless

in terms of how we move forward because

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we're not planted with the seeds and the

branches and the roots of that history.

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And so, I'm so excited to have you on

today to talk about how we can get to

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digging up those roots and holding on to

those roots and more importantly, watering

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those roots and sharing those branches.

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To not just African American people, but

all people, all people around the world.

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So what's your, you know, and look, I know

you ready to, you chomping, , you, you,

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you, you about to come through the screen,

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Alright?

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So don't get me wrong,

we gonna get you there.

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'cause I'm excited too, because I wanna

share with the audience what you've been

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doing and I want them to hear from you.

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But before we get deep.

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Tell us where are you, where you reside,

and a little bit about your family.

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Dr. Jewell Parker Rhodes: Okay, I actually

live, uh, in Seattle, Washington, so it's,

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uh, right now, a bright, sunshiny day.

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Uh, which is sometimes Seattle?

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Yes!

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Yes!

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It is.

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They

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Tony Tidbit: must be our lucky day.

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And

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Dr. Jewell Parker Rhodes: I have,

um, I have a husband Brad and

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Brad is a Scotch Irish Norwegian.

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Uh, and we've been married for 40

years and we have a son and a daughter.

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And, uh, our son actually

is black appearing a black

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man, uh, and our daughter.

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No, she's a black woman.

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She's white appearing.

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And so the whole issue of race and history

and the mixing of the flat, you know,

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the mixed flat stew of African American

peoples, which have made us African

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American peoples, not just Africans.

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We have lived that and live that

journey of how society was trying

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to tear you apart because they

don't believe you go together.

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So, as you said, with yeah.

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When I write, all my writing in

one way or another is about our

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common humanity, and that skin tone

is actually a superficial variant.

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There are over 4, 000 skin tones,

but we always act as though

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it's just a strict dichotomy.

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So I write for adults and for

children saying, you know, um, No,

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humanity, we're, we're all one.

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We're all mixed flat stew.

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And if we really want to get real about

it, uh, at Arizona State, we have the

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Institute for Human Origins and we have

Lucy's Bones and Lucy was a black woman.

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And as her children move,

they just adapted color.

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So I love, Everything you

said, you're so eloquent.

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And, um, it's what I try to

do with my writing in my life.

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Show love, empathy, and compassion.

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Tony Tidbit: Well, thank you.

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I really appreciate that.

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And I appreciate you sharing.

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Now I'm, I'm going to be bold here

is because, you know, I couldn't

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wait to get you on and talk about

what we're going to talk about today.

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Which you just got finished

talking about Lucy's bones.

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I'm automatically going to want you

to come back, dive into that, right?

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Because you said Lucy's bones and make

sure you know how to Lucy's bones.

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We got so many other type of bones and

so many other different type of colors.

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You know, I'm used to neck bones cause

that's where we grew up in Detroit.

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Or hand bones.

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Or hand bones, right?

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But you told me about Lucy's bones.

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So.

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I hope I can get, you know,

I'm giving this invite now.

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So I hope by the end of the episode,

you say, Tony, I'll come back

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on and talk about Lucy's bones,

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Dr. Jewell Parker Rhodes:

whatever you want.

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And actually I must tell you,

you know, how Lucy got her name.

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It was named after the Beatles,

Lucy in the sky with diamonds.

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So we got to bring that in,

you know, it's like, Whoa, yes.

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Tony Tidbit: I'm

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Dr. Jewell Parker Rhodes: all

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Tony Tidbit: for Dr.

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Rhodes.

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Yeah, she this, and I think I know,

but I love our audience to know.

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You know, this is important.

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Why did you want to come on

a black executive perspective

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podcast to talk about this topic?

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Dr. Jewell Parker Rhodes: Oh,

well My whole life has been such a

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journey seeing um, I was part of the

academic generation That created and

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helped You know, enforce the idea

that stories about women's stories

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about ethnic groups were important.

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So in the Academy, we did not

have ethnic studies or black

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studies or women's studies.

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My generation did that.

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I was also the kid who grew up

in a world of Dick and Jane.

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So I did not even know that

black people wrote books until

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I was a junior in college.

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And then I became adamant about Have

the sense of us seeing ourselves

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me Discovering myself and my

my journey has been a long one.

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You know, I'm I'm 70 years old and

It's kind of like hey, we're still

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going back, you know with the murder

of George Floyd the book banning So

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I kept coming back thinking things

would become better and better as a

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civil rights era child, but we are

going back and my books are banned now.

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So it's kind of like I feel with the

power of the black executives, the power

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of the people, my people, um, you can

continue that work, which you're doing.

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But also I wanted to speak to those who

are fathers and mothers, uh, because

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I write for youth and young people.

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And adults, but particularly for youths,

they have got to know the history.

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And as schools ban books, they're going

to go back to when all I knew was Dick

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and Jane, and as schools won't even allow

them to talk about the race riots and

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destruction of Jacksonville, Florida.

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And you go there for the, you know,

the WB boy Du Bois conference and,

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and you see all these black faces.

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What do you mean?

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They can't know their history.

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But if you allow me one, one

story, I was in Boston and.

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I was talking to a group of young

black men about Ghost Boys, which is

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about the murder of Trayvon Tamir, but

built on the foundation of Emmett Till.

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I was a child when Emmett Till

was murdered, so I had that

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historical perspective of why

is it still going on, you know?

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And then of course the

men, like George Floyd.

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But this young black boy came out to me

outside of the classroom and said, Dr.

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Rhodes, You mean this is a pattern,

the killing of black children?

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It's a pattern.

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And then he looked at me and he said,

you know, I always thought it was me.

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And I just broke down and had to hug

him and cry that he had internalized,

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you know, this idea that because

of his skin color, the problem was

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him and nobody was teaching him.

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Even though he was in a, you know,

all black boys school or in a black

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community or mixed race community or

whatever But our education system and

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our community have to help lift him and

knowing the historical connections He

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was able to understand it's a pattern

that has nothing to do with my own self

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esteem So that's why I do what I do and

it took me a while Tony because I had

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to gather all of my My self esteem, when

I started, you know, writing my first

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book when I was a junior in college,

my classmates said, well, why didn't

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you tell me your characters were black?

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And I'd say, well, why don't you

tell me your characters are white?

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And I learned how I had been

indoctrinated, that I was reading white.

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So particularly when people like

Toni Morrison came along, Alice

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Walker, they were my guideposts.

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And I started, Writing one

part to discover myself, right?

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And then after I made myself more whole

by knowing about my history, that it's

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sort of, I switched to telling the

youth, let's have you start younger.

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So you don't have to wait to be

a junior in college to know where

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you come from and who you are.

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Tony Tidbit: Right, right.

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I mean, listen, Dr.

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Rhodes, I mean, you, I was just in

here mesmerized by hearing Um, what

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you were saying, why do you want to

come on and then the story you talked

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about with the young man and, you

know, I want to read something here

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that is part of your, um, biography.

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Right?

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So before I go there.

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You definitely ready to

talk about it, right?

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You already I told you

coming through the screen

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Dr. Jewell Parker Rhodes: Well, it

also I love saying your name because

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my sister is a tony so it's like

tody's you know Whether it's an

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anthony or antoinette or tony with

an ie or an eye or why I love Tony's.

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Tony Tidbit: Okay.

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Well, I love it.

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And guess what?

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That means we're going to,

we're going to talk about it.

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So let's talk about it.

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Dr.

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Rhodes, what I would like to do.

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Um, I want to go back.

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Dr. Jewell Parker Rhodes: Okay.

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Tony Tidbit: Because you just got finished

saying, uh, you know, you are around.

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When Emmett Till, uh, was murdered, you've

seen a lot of different things go on.

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You talked about, um, you know, you

writing, uh, your first book when you

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were a junior, I believe, in college.

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Excuse me, you wrote your first

book when you were eight, nine

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years old, if I remember correctly.

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Well, a little

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Dr. Jewell Parker Rhodes:

tiny little story.

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A little story.

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Tony Tidbit: But the point I want

to make is, even as you're, um,

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telling us, um, this information

since you've been on thus far.

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It's all, it's all been in the story form.

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Okay.

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And I've learned a long time ago.

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People don't remember facts.

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They remember story.

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So I want to read this.

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Um, and this was in your bio

story and I quote, and I believe

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this was in August 8th of 2017.

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My grandmother taught

me how to tell stories.

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I grew up in a three brick, uh, three

story brick house in Pittsburgh,

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raised by my grandparents.

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My dad lived there too, my aunt,

my sister, my three cousins.

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They made nine of us totally

squeeze in this building.

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None of us ever finding more than a

few minutes of solitude at a time.

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To escape the heat and clutter,

my grandmother and I sat on the

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stoop while she told me stories.

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Stories about our family, slavery,

her Georgia childhood, stories

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about love, death, and life.

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I still vividly remember

the lessons she taught.

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You never need an excuse

for joy, she would say.

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Prejudice is sinful.

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All flat flows red.

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She told me, wear clean underwear.

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That was, that was all our parents.

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Don't let anyone ever

think there's trash in you.

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I didn't realize it then, but my

grandmother was also carrying on the

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African American oral tradition, turning

me into another storyteller in a line

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that's continued for generations.

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Dr. Jewell Parker Rhodes: Oh,

Tony, I'm so glad you read that.

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Um, I think of my grandmother every

day and she actually died just as

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I was starting to make the decision

that I'm going to be a writer.

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But one of the things I think that

happened to me, um, Is that the American

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education system by having an absence

of other cultures that, you know, it

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was sort of like there was no sense

of, Oh, what your grandmother taught

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you is the most valuable when you're

a kid from the kid's perspective.

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And I remember sitting in a college

classroom and having this professor say

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that anything of value and worth done in

the world has been done by white people.

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Western civilization.

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And I just knew my bones.

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That's not true.

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So literally, I had to undo a mis

education and dig into the roots.

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And that's why people like me at

that era, we were the ones that said,

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you have to get us into the academy.

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We need to have majors because I went

through eight years of undergraduate

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and graduate schooling, uh, all my

elementary to high school and never once.

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Was I ever given a book

by a person of color?

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Tony Tidbit: That's insane.

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Dr. Jewell Parker Rhodes: Yes, that's

it doesn't it doesn't happen today.

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We have new diverse books, particularly

for youth and for adults, but

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what you get again is that book

banding that sense of suppression

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that they're taking us backwards.

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And it fits in line with that

whole idea that, you know, blocks

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are forbidden to read and write.

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We weren't supposed to be educated.

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So in one form or another,

you can call a book banding.

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Now, it's still cool.

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Continuously about suppression of power

and voice and denigrating rather than,

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you know, welcoming these wondrous

citizens into the American system.

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And that happens in corporate

politics, happens in politics,

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politics, academic politics.

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Um, so I want, I want the

legacy to continue on.

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So my grandma, my appreciation

grew for her, you know, that

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I had to undo to see clearly.

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And then it was like, Oh my God, you

know, so every, every novel that I

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write, there is an elder, there is

a grandma or a grandfather figure.

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And That has to do with the fact that

our schools say this is the right way

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and sometimes then they demean our family

values and particularly for grandma.

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Um, she never finished the third

grade, you know, my father and

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mother didn't graduate high school.

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So the projection of the stereotype of

the kids from my north side community

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in Pittsburgh, then was, you know.

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Handicapping.

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Do you know what I mean?

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And so it's like, so because they

couldn't see and they were offering

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this other thing, but they didn't say,

bring along your roots with you, you

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know, and my grandparents and father,

um, they were busy making a living.

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So it's literature.

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Through writing, through discovering

myself, that I realized that always

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black families have been the bulwark,

and what happens is sometimes we don't

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see their power because we've been

miseducated, or the society tries to

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pull us away from that power into a white

western tradition that we don't see.

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And that's why I'm here.

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Models that rather than,

nah, I tell the dozens.

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I exaggerate.

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You know, I talk like the

folk and on the porch.

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And one of the things that really freaks

me out is that a lot of black youth aren't

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necessarily reading black Speech block.

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I try to capture black oral

speech in my novels and all the

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copy editors say, Oh, but that's,

you know, not standard English.

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And I'd say leave my words alone.

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I know it's not.

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I'm writing from the rhythm of

my grandmother on the porch.

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And I'm powerful enough now to do

that after all these, all these years.

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So just like Tony Morrison was

a revelation to us, you know, 40

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some years ago, we still have it.

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Yeah.

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Western linear storytelling and Western

standard English telling black stories.

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And I wanted to have children hear that

grandmother's voice, hear their father,

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our uncle's voice, and recognize that

black people tell stories differently.

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It's focused on rhythm, orality, and

sometimes it's not beginning, middle,

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and end, sometimes it could be the end.

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And then you get to the middle or maybe

the beginning, you know, and that every

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culture has its own way of saying it But

again, a lot of black writers are being

357

:

um taught western traditions in terms of

creative writing or other kinds of writing

358

:

Tony Tidbit: Right, right.

359

:

So it was funny You said a lot there

It's funny though because you're right

360

:

we you know Our our parents when I was

coming up, they don't they don't go

361

:

in Numerical order and beginning, you

know, my mother would say, my mother

362

:

would say, I'm gonna kick your ass.

363

:

And then I'm gonna tell you why

364

:

Punishment comes first and then I explain

right which is explained first, right?

365

:

And then the punishment but you know

But that and look we're making fun.

366

:

But here's the thing though.

367

:

You said a lot um, and I you know as

you were as you You We're, um, talking.

368

:

I was just flashing back

to my own history, right?

369

:

And how I grew up and I can imagine

and I was trying to put myself

370

:

or jettison myself going back in

terms of being that young kid and

371

:

hearing my mother tell stories or my

uncle or whatever the case may be.

372

:

And then when I go to school,

I don't see those stories.

373

:

They don't show up on in the book.

374

:

There's nothing, you know, uh,

based on what grandma, grandpa

375

:

said, you know, even going back to

what your, your grandmother said.

376

:

Prejudice is sinful, flat colors, red.

377

:

You don't see no book when

you was coming up in school.

378

:

That said that, right?

379

:

So a lot of times to your point, what

you were saying, a lot of times we don't

380

:

until we get older, we don't even, you

know, Really understand that what our

381

:

parents are telling us how valuable that

is when we leave and go to school, we're

382

:

looking for some connection to that that

substantiates what they told us right now.

383

:

We learn that later on as we get older,

as we are trying to navigate the world.

384

:

But if you're 8, 9, 10 years old, you

want to see some of that show up in

385

:

the school lesson or some of that.

386

:

from in the history book, because

then that makes you that that's part

387

:

of that plant, that part of that

root that you feel good about you.

388

:

And then if you don't hear that,

and all you hear and and all you

389

:

seen is a Western civilization

standpoint, right where your face.

390

:

Your stories, your, your written

or oral word is not even there.

391

:

How does that make you

feel good about you?

392

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400

:

Dr. Jewell Parker Rhodes: I can give you

an example, uh, there was this young girl

401

:

in California who was telling her story to

the class and she was using exaggeration,

402

:

which is a great technique, you know,

for, for black humor and black culture

403

:

exaggerating, you know, your mama, you

know, and how big is that, you know,

404

:

and she was berated and called a liar.

405

:

Because she was using a storytelling

method that the teacher just simply

406

:

couldn't empathize with or appreciate,

you know, the same with the whole notion

407

:

of connecting it to the school to prison

pipeline or connecting it to Emmett

408

:

Till's death or Tamir Rice's death that.

409

:

Children, in particular, are so vulnerable

because they're not, they're not seen, or

410

:

the way that they're seen, they're seen

as more sexually mature, as older, you

411

:

know, or, or, or, you know, thuggish in

a way that's not apropos or right at all.

412

:

And when I was writing my novel,

Black Brother, Black Brother and Ghost

413

:

Boys, you know, I would find videos

of, um, like a five year old girl.

414

:

Being handcuffed and put into a police car

and it makes you wonder what could a five

415

:

year old possibly do to have that happen?

416

:

Or I saw a clip where these young boys

were playing shoot em up and that's

417

:

part of our society, you know, which

we're trying to get rid of, you know,

418

:

but I grew up during the western era and

certainly didn't know all the politics

419

:

about that and all the oppression, but you

know, there's just playing shoot em up.

420

:

So we have detective stories of

the thing and a police officer,

421

:

you know, came and told them.

422

:

You know, I could have killed you, you

know, I could have seen you as a threat

423

:

and the girl, the boys got so scared.

424

:

The remark was made that how lucky those

boys were, how lucky to have had this nice

425

:

police officer tell them they can't play.

426

:

Guns like a white kid because of these

other kinds of things and I'm like what

427

:

that's not a favor That's another way.

428

:

No, that's not a favor.

429

:

That's another brutalizing of our our

children So I always wanted to write

430

:

for children and I spent writing for

adults, trying to become good enough

431

:

to write for them, to try to have the

complexities of literature so that

432

:

they could understand nuances of what's

at work in our society that opened up

433

:

their, their minds and their hearts.

434

:

And I also wanted to

write for the classroom.

435

:

So one of the things that I have

accomplished, and I really love this

436

:

is a lot of teachers teach my books in

schools and I That also came from when

437

:

I was raising my children, every black

history month, you know, they read the

438

:

same book, Virginia Hamilton, Roll of

Thunder, Hear My Cry, which is a wonderful

439

:

book, but why is it, you know, my kids

are 36 and 34, all the years difference

440

:

between them and over the years, there

was only one black text they got, which

441

:

was better than the none that I got.

442

:

But I wanted my books to be in

the classroom because it's more

443

:

powerful that way, because the

teachers then have to start talking

444

:

about culture and understanding it.

445

:

So they don't call a child a liar

for using black storytelling methods

446

:

or don't demean, you know, a black

child because, Oh, you didn't take

447

:

part in the Oklahoma land rush.

448

:

Oh yes, they did.

449

:

Black people were there.

450

:

Uh, so it's that discovery.

451

:

Tony Tidbit: No, that is awesome.

452

:

And I love to.

453

:

You know, you, you're saying

that you, your, your books are

454

:

being taught in the classroom.

455

:

Give us a couple of examples of what,

what type of books, what's the name?

456

:

Well, ghost

457

:

Dr. Jewell Parker Rhodes: boys is,

um, a national, national bestseller,

458

:

and it's taught all over the world.

459

:

It's a way to talk about

racism and implicit bias.

460

:

And I don't demonize anyone.

461

:

But I show the complexity and in

my, my book, cause it's from a

462

:

black perspective, um, African

American ghosts and spirits are real.

463

:

Grandma taught me that the

line between the dead and the

464

:

living is very, very thin.

465

:

flat out!

466

:

I know, I know!

467

:

flat out!

468

:

Laughing Sorry.

469

:

No, you know what

470

:

Tony Tidbit: I'm talking about.

471

:

Yeah, that's right.

472

:

I don't like that too.

473

:

flat

474

:

Dr. Jewell Parker Rhodes: out!

475

:

Well, my, I'm convinced my grandmother,

she was the wife of a Methodist priest.

476

:

Preacher, but she was also a hoodoo lady.

477

:

I know it.

478

:

So, so when I started thinking about

how to write the book, you know, it

479

:

starts with the murder and then the boy

comes back as a ghost and he meets the

480

:

ghost of all the other dead children.

481

:

And he's wondering, why am I doing this?

482

:

Why am I meeting the ghost?

483

:

And one, I wanted.

484

:

See, to me, it's a Western tradition

to have a book that builds up to

485

:

the young black man being shot

and everybody else gets woke.

486

:

Okay?

487

:

That's one tradition.

488

:

I wanted to honor, because I

think it's more appropriate to

489

:

the black tradition, that, That

person, even in death, has power.

490

:

They are not a victim.

491

:

So my ghost boys are looking for people

who have good hearts, uh, open minds,

492

:

who aren't racist, who are going to

do something to make the world better.

493

:

So I posit Emmett Till in

Thurgood Marshall, you know,

494

:

he was there at the trial.

495

:

And in my book, The only other person

that can see the ghost boy of my

496

:

character Jerome and Emmett Till is Sarah,

the white police officer's daughter.

497

:

Her dad is wrong, and she

and her dad have their thing.

498

:

But why could she see it?

499

:

Because there are some

young white students.

500

:

Kids who do have that good heart.

501

:

We are making progress.

502

:

You don't have the racism

and the implicit bias.

503

:

And then there's Carlos, you know,

who's, you know, the Mexican American

504

:

kid, um, who like had the gun and

feels guilty about his friend, but he

505

:

connects with the black family because

Dia de los Muertos is like, you know,

506

:

uh, the black folks coming back and

he decides to become the older brother

507

:

to the black the sister that survived.

508

:

So I probably didn't say that very

well, but it's a very complicated

509

:

book and it's left so that kids talk

about, well, did the police officer,

510

:

was he racist or did he have bias?

511

:

And then talk about, but does it matter?

512

:

Cause the kid is still dead.

513

:

And then the idea that if we're going to,

um, You have to honor, honor the dead.

514

:

And so the book ends with the

message, a little poem, you

515

:

know, of Jerome, the ghost.

516

:

I can go on now.

517

:

Cause I found somebody who's living.

518

:

Only the living can make the

dead better to make life better.

519

:

I found somebody living

to carry on for justice.

520

:

So he says, don't let me or

anybody else tell this tale again.

521

:

You know, so we've got to keep passing

it down through the generations, but not

522

:

just in our culture, but across cultures.

523

:

And if we're trying to honor the dead,

then it's sort of like we owe it to

524

:

the slaves that were thrown off the

slave ship because, you know, they

525

:

were re They were being hunted by

the insurers of the British, um, the

526

:

black people and all people that died

in 9 11, you know, the, the, the, um,

527

:

you know, the Buffalo soldiers, the

black men who fought on the union side

528

:

for freedom to fight discrimination.

529

:

I always stop and say, what right

do I have to complain, you know,

530

:

things are getting better and we're

going to make them better yet.

531

:

But my books always had that

affirmation that an individual

532

:

has agency and power to.

533

:

Art, storytelling, relationships,

even calling out your parents

534

:

and saying, no, that's not right.

535

:

He was only 12 like me because

you can love your parents,

536

:

but still disagree with them.

537

:

So it's that agency I want the kids to

have so that they can get to their growth

538

:

faster that it took me to get to mine.

539

:

Tony Tidbit: That is awesome.

540

:

Let me ask you this question.

541

:

Is that book banned now?

542

:

Dr. Jewell Parker Rhodes: Yes.

543

:

In parts of Florida.

544

:

You're kidding me.

545

:

Hold on.

546

:

Yes.

547

:

Yes.

548

:

And actually, I did think about, you know,

and I spent two years and that book nearly

549

:

broke me because grandma also taught me,

um, you don't do unto others, or you do

550

:

unto others as you want to be done unto.

551

:

But having been part of a

stereotype Repressed race.

552

:

How dare I turn around and do that to

somebody else, you know, so the book

553

:

is perfectly balanced, you know With it

ask questions and discussions and it's

554

:

inclusive so you could have Hispanic kids

in other books have Asian kids or I always

555

:

have multicultural characters So the white

kid sitting in class can see I have a

556

:

role to play too as well as a black kid

seeing Oh, I'm not just the victim and

557

:

everybody else's victim You know, getting

enlightened, but I even have power.

558

:

My ancestors have power, and

now I'm one, one of them.

559

:

So the Miami Dade police chief, I

believe it was, um, basically went to

560

:

the school board and said that this

taught kids to hate police and the

561

:

school board banned it, which is really

interesting because then you think

562

:

about the logic of why should a police

officer tell an educated school board

563

:

about what's right for curriculum?

564

:

Um,

565

:

Tony Tidbit: It seemed like they were

just looking for any reason to get

566

:

rid of any African American book.

567

:

Yes, they

568

:

Dr. Jewell Parker Rhodes: were.

569

:

So it's actually for Seattle.

570

:

They're going to have a video that

they're going to spread around

571

:

because Seattle is a city of

literature, UNESCO city of literature.

572

:

And they're making a big deal Point

that they don't ban Ghost Boys.

573

:

Um, because it's California, parts

of California, parts of Utah,

574

:

parts of Texas, you know, ban it.

575

:

And now there's like Romanian editions.

576

:

There's a Persian edition, uh,

you know, Taiwanese, um, Chinese,

577

:

you know, uh, you name it.

578

:

But another book of mine that's

banned in some places, it's

579

:

Black Brother, Black Brother.

580

:

That's the book.

581

:

Tony Tidbit: Dr.

582

:

Rhodes, I'm sorry.

583

:

I just got to back you up for a second.

584

:

BEP Narrator: If you like what you hear

and want to join us on this journey

585

:

of making uncomfortable conversations

comfortable, please subscribe to a

586

:

Black Executive Perspective podcast

on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, Spotify,

587

:

or wherever you get your podcasts.

588

:

Hit subscribe now to stay connected

for more episodes that challenge,

589

:

inspire, and lead the change.

590

:

Tony Tidbit: Okay.

591

:

Sure.

592

:

I heard, I heard what I heard.

593

:

Yes.

594

:

Okay.

595

:

You're, and I could

have been wrong, right?

596

:

I might have missed it.

597

:

Your book, Ghost Boys, now there's

versions, uh, uh, uh, a Chinese version.

598

:

There's all these other

versions of your book.

599

:

That can be read across this world.

600

:

Dr. Jewell Parker Rhodes: Yes.

601

:

Tony Tidbit: From different groups.

602

:

Yeah.

603

:

And it's banned in Florida.

604

:

That's what I'm hearing.

605

:

Dr. Jewell Parker Rhodes: Yes.

606

:

That's what I'm hearing here.

607

:

Yes.

608

:

There's a, uh, in Hong, in Hong Kong,

uh, there's a international school where

609

:

I get letters from them every year.

610

:

I've done zooms with kids in Sweden.

611

:

There's a German edition, you know,

the British edition and Romania.

612

:

Yeah.

613

:

And then it's really interesting how

they do the covers and the pictures.

614

:

And, but yeah, that this novel

is, uh, read internationally and

615

:

it's banned in parts of America.

616

:

Tony Tidbit: That is, that

makes, that makes no sense.

617

:

Sense.

618

:

No sense.

619

:

No sense.

620

:

However, number one,

thanks for sharing that.

621

:

I mean, if everyone listening,

you got to go pick that book up.

622

:

She's got a ton of them.

623

:

Okay.

624

:

But you got to get that because

that, that speaks right to the

625

:

heart and I love the story.

626

:

Now you wrote, uh, uh, look, uh, I could

be here all day of all the books you

627

:

wrote, talk a little bit about magic

city, which is about the Tulsa race riot.

628

:

Dr. Jewell Parker Rhodes: Well, when

I was starting to write, uh, You

629

:

know, when I was a junior in college,

I would just say very quickly.

630

:

First and foremost, I latched on The

character Marie Laveau, the voodoo queen

631

:

from New Orleans, because I love to cook

and I had a Louisiana cookbook and in

632

:

that book, I learned about this powerful

black woman and started delving in.

633

:

Why is our spiritual traditions

seen as so quote barbaric unquote,

634

:

and it's much deeper than that.

635

:

And so when I got done with

that, I'm like, looking for what

636

:

else do I want to write about?

637

:

And in 1983 and parade magazine, there

was an article article and a picture

638

:

of a black community, Deep Greenwood,

that had been bombed by the U.

639

:

S.

640

:

National Guard from the

air and completely raised.

641

:

And over 4000 African Americans were given

green cards and told to be living tent

642

:

cities during Oklahoma when it's cold.

643

:

And then there were the unmarked

graves, the mass cemeteries.

644

:

They think anywhere from three to

maybe hundreds more people are buried.

645

:

And they've just now

started uncovering them.

646

:

I think they've uncovered two that

they've been able to identify.

647

:

There were 11 uncovered in 1921 in

a mass grave, but they're now going

648

:

through the process of trying to

designate who, who are these people.

649

:

So I wrote a novel about.

650

:

Magic City about Oklahoma because I

was like, how the heck did Oklahoma

651

:

people, black people get to Oklahoma?

652

:

I've never heard of Deep Greenwood.

653

:

I never heard of, you know,

a Tulsa race massacre.

654

:

And it's like I just started digging and

exploring, um, and actually discovered

655

:

it was hooked up to the idea that we had

all our black soldiers, the World War I

656

:

vets, the 369th men who fought bravely.

657

:

And a segregated army who, when they

came home, you know, and marched

658

:

down, you know, New York streets

and in Harlem with their bayonets,

659

:

that literally Klan membership that

had been on the decrease in America

660

:

increased when they saw this block.

661

:

Yes, this block.

662

:

brave, strong manhood.

663

:

And throughout the next couple years,

they were always these red summers, you

664

:

know, in Chicago, in Atlanta and different

kinds of magic cities or hometowns in

665

:

Kentucky's with the blocks when they

got home from work were told, Oh, you

666

:

get on the train, you're leaving here.

667

:

So all of that history, plus, you know,

the timing of it and a young black man

668

:

was accused of assaulting a white woman.

669

:

And that's what's done.

670

:

Was excused so supposedly for

the bombing as it turns out,

671

:

they were doing a land grab.

672

:

They wanted to put a railroad through

the town, but they use the white

673

:

woman as a trope, you know, and

actually, this white woman, Sarah Page

674

:

said, Dick Roland, the shoe shine.

675

:

No, he didn't touch me.

676

:

And they ran her out of town because

she was a working woman, so she

677

:

couldn't have been a good woman anyway.

678

:

So it was also trying to show

that they used different groups

679

:

of people against one another.

680

:

And also at that time, Oklahoma,

they were lynching Jews, they were

681

:

lynching pro labor people, they

were just like a lawless stream.

682

:

But in Magic City, it was like, I

took Jewish and African American

683

:

history and combined them.

684

:

Because I'm a young man who Wrote a

dissertation about Magic City, who since

685

:

has gone on to write wonderful books.

686

:

His name's Scott Ellsworth.

687

:

You know, he talks about prior to them

trying to lynch Dick Rowland, they

688

:

had, in fact, lynched a Jewish man.

689

:

And that it's part of the Jewish

community that was trying to keep

690

:

uncovered the story of the Tulsa race.

691

:

Massacre.

692

:

So I started putting in Harry Houdini

because we're the spiritualism

693

:

movement and he was Jewish and he

was trying to bring people back

694

:

from the dead and then here comes.

695

:

Yeah.

696

:

Yeah.

697

:

Right, right.

698

:

And then in one time, he almost

died himself because he was trying

699

:

to do a trick and the ground was

too harsh and he couldn't get out.

700

:

But in my novel, my right.

701

:

My black character, his name is Joe,

based on Dick Rowland, the shoeshine

702

:

and a white woman's name, Mary.

703

:

So Joe and Mary, the Christian theme,

um, Joe, uh, Joe's brother comes back

704

:

from the war as it goes from the war.

705

:

And it's sort of like, Hey, I got

my own tradition, you know, and

706

:

it's his brother who's telling him

that the magic and the spirituality.

707

:

So by the end of the novel, my

young black man does not leave.

708

:

He's on the train to get out of Oklahoma.

709

:

But he jumps off and says no I am

going back I am going to fulfill my

710

:

dream and be part of my community.

711

:

You're not gonna run me out of town

So for me, it was a very spiritual

712

:

enlightening moment But that book was

out of print and then they reissued

713

:

it for the hundredth anniversary

, I think, uh, or:

714

:

And then George, George

Floyd was murdered in:

715

:

And then people started talking on

TV about the Tulsa race massacre, but

716

:

in Oklahoma, they never taught that.

717

:

And a lot of people in American history

didn't know that, that there was an

718

:

uncovered, you know, race, race riot.

719

:

But I had written that novel in 19.

720

:

So I've always been interested in

like, how come I didn't know this?

721

:

And a lot of my books

were ahead of their time.

722

:

So Magic City was reissued, Douglas

Women about Frederick Douglass, um,

723

:

and his black, illiterate wife and his

white, uh, literate mistress, um, was,

724

:

you know, uh, made a big, big splash.

725

:

They are reissuing that in 2025.

726

:

And some people even call me

the grandmother of urban fantasy

727

:

because of voodoo dreams.

728

:

And I got the Octavia Butler

award, but I just followed my own

729

:

curiosity and dug at stories that.

730

:

Maybe we're just, well, they were

not too early for this world,

731

:

but the world treated them as

though they were too early.

732

:

And so now I'm getting more of this

appreciation for what I was doing

733

:

and have been doing my entire career.

734

:

Tony Tidbit: Rightfully so.

735

:

Right.

736

:

Rightfully so.

737

:

You know, it's interesting.

738

:

Um, you know, and when we look back,

you know, I always said, um, Marvin

739

:

Gaye, okay, was ahead of his time.

740

:

Dr. Jewell Parker Rhodes: Yes, he was.

741

:

Tony Tidbit: Okay, his music today

still, you know, uh, it's, it's, it hits

742

:

the net on the head on the nail today.

743

:

And it was written 50, 60 years

ago, recorded 50, 60 years ago.

744

:

And that's what I'm

hearing about you as well.

745

:

Right.

746

:

Is that you're telling stories, stories

that people don't even know about

747

:

stories that you wrote 30, 40 years

ago that now everybody's digging into.

748

:

Oh, we didn't know that we, and this is

the, and this goes back to how we, we

749

:

started, how history is so important.

750

:

Okay.

751

:

Knowing history.

752

:

Black, white, Jewish, the whole nine yards

because at the end of the day, without

753

:

that, we're again flying rudderless.

754

:

We don't have anything to plant

and we're making stuff up.

755

:

And then more importantly, and I

want to jump to big brother brick

756

:

was a big brother, black brother.

757

:

Okay.

758

:

I want to go there because

that's interesting as well.

759

:

But One of the things, especially in the

African American community, especially

760

:

when we talk about our youth, and I'm,

and I'm even putting myself in this

761

:

because I dealt with this growing up,

is the lack of confidence of being an

762

:

African American young boy or young girl,

not seeing Other people that look like

763

:

you and then not being able to read.

764

:

I remember when I was a kid, um, my mother

started dabbling with Jehovah witness.

765

:

Okay.

766

:

And they would come by and do a

Bible study and then they would have

767

:

their books and stuff to that nature.

768

:

And I remember at Bible study and

they would have all these pictures

769

:

of white people, you know, in heaven.

770

:

And I asked as a 10 year

old, I never forget this.

771

:

I think it was nine.

772

:

I said, where did black people come from?

773

:

Dr. Jewell Parker Rhodes: All right.

774

:

Tony Tidbit: And then I remember the lady

saying, and she was black and she said,

775

:

oh, they came further on down the road.

776

:

Okay.

777

:

And it just, I just like, I, you know,

I didn't push back, but how did that

778

:

make me feel when I'm seeing all these

other people that God loves them.

779

:

I'm seeing pictures of them, but they,

I don't see nobody that look like me.

780

:

Okay.

781

:

So this isn't so important

and not abandon it.

782

:

I mean, it, it, it, it, it, again, we can

go into that, but talk a little bit about

783

:

black brother, black sister, and you can

respond to what I just said too, as well.

784

:

Dr. Jewell Parker Rhodes: Well, you

know, um, that whole idea of justifying,

785

:

you know, skin tone, which made it easy

or for, you know, the slave masters

786

:

to track people down in America.

787

:

They had also that, yes,

that, and also the Irish

788

:

Tony Tidbit: was the indenture

servant, but they melded in

789

:

and look like, and change their

790

:

Dr. Jewell Parker Rhodes: name.

791

:

Yes.

792

:

And, and, uh, And also then the idea

that black people were the children

793

:

of Cain, you know, so you were the

bad son and that's why you practice.

794

:

Yes.

795

:

Yes.

796

:

Yes.

797

:

The

798

:

Tony Tidbit: Bible to say

you supposed to be a slave.

799

:

Dr. Jewell Parker Rhodes: Yes, exactly.

800

:

And, um, you know, you can just go on

and on and down the line of how that

801

:

skin tone, that color has been, been,

uh, been used against us and just how

802

:

wrong it is and how it still lives on.

803

:

It's like when you, I said, when I talk

to children, I talk, have you ever like

804

:

put dye in a glass of water and then

you want to like get the color out?

805

:

So I add more and more water, but it

never, you can never get it out, you know?

806

:

And it's kind of like this kind of

like the drip racism in our culture.

807

:

It's still there.

808

:

You might not see it.

809

:

It might be diluted in some spaces,

but do not fool yourself at it.

810

:

That it's gone away.

811

:

Just like, you know, when we had,

uh, the watching, my son went to

812

:

the march in Charlottesville, you

know, Jews will not replace us.

813

:

And that was like, that's the Tulsa race

massacre, Jews and blacks, forget of it.

814

:

And then, you know, Trump gets

elected on and on and on, but

815

:

black brother, black brother, I

was just trying to point out how.

816

:

The skin tone.

817

:

Some black kids get put in the

school to prison pipeline, which

818

:

then affects their entire life.

819

:

And if a child is expelled or

suspended too frequently, that

820

:

also affects their entire life.

821

:

They're less likely to graduate

from college, high school or

822

:

college, and they're more likely

to end up in a prison system.

823

:

So I've watched how, you know, my

son and daughter have grown up and

824

:

people will swear to me they can't

possibly be brother and sister.

825

:

One of them had to be adopted or I might.

826

:

It was my mother's, my daughter's nanny,

or my husband would get pats on the back.

827

:

Oh, you adopted a black child,

you know, but if you look at

828

:

us, our features, we're family.

829

:

You can see it.

830

:

It's, it's right there, but people,

and you said the word don't see.

831

:

They project what they think

is there, but they don't see.

832

:

So the message of Black Brother,

Black Brother, because the two

833

:

brothers stand strong in loyalty and

love, is that, I'm going to be me.

834

:

You know, and I'm telling

the children, be you.

835

:

Even if others don't see you.

836

:

So it turns out they've got the problem,

the speck in their eye, not you.

837

:

And it's also about fencing.

838

:

I don't know if you know, but in the

last two Olympics, we've had more

839

:

diverse fencers, you know, in a Baji

Muhammad, uh, in, in a hijab and, um, uh,

840

:

wonderful black men, black British men.

841

:

And a lot of that was due to this

great man named Peter Westbrook, who

842

:

runs a fencing club for many years

in New York city that he would.

843

:

Give lessons and still

does, uh, to youth for free.

844

:

And from his studio, he started this

whole mission of black kids, getting

845

:

scholarships to college, traveling

the world, winning world class titles.

846

:

And I have a nephew in law who's one

of them, you know, and change the

847

:

sport and change that perception that.

848

:

Oh, fencing is only for rich white people,

you know, and black people, because

849

:

you're poor, you could play with a ball.

850

:

Um, but in fencing,

it's a game of strategy.

851

:

It's an individual

sport with a team sport.

852

:

But I come to find out that Alexander

Dumas, who wrote all those great fencing

853

:

novels, he was a black Frenchman.

854

:

Tony Tidbit: Wow,

855

:

Dr. Jewell Parker Rhodes: how come I

didn't know that because I actually

856

:

like swords and fencing and so the kids

learn, you know The three musketeers

857

:

they were probably black and that

alexander Yeah, well, there's a show

858

:

where they have one of them is black.

859

:

Right, but I would I say they could

all be black because um, alexander

860

:

dumas father Was known as the great

black general He was the powerhouse of

861

:

napoleon's army and when they invaded

into africa He was such a Statues black

862

:

man on this beautiful black horse that

Napoleon got pissed off because all of

863

:

the Africans thought oh He's Napoleon

so the story of him being disappeared

864

:

came up in the story of the man in the

iron mask and the prejudice came out and

865

:

It's just interesting but a Bach man He

was an intellectual a famous general the

866

:

best fencer and they disappeared him and

when he died He died He was buried in

867

:

a hopper's grave and France has a great

cemetery for all their great authors, you

868

:

know, like Victor Hugo, you know, uh, and

it wasn't until a couple of decades back

869

:

that they, uh, re interned, you know,

Dumas in the, in the French literary

870

:

cemetery and gave him the honors due.

871

:

But what does that say to all the.

872

:

Black kids who could say, well, I'm

not good at this sport, but I can do

873

:

this sport because there are people

who have done it and done it greatly.

874

:

The same for swimming, the same for

hockey, the same, you know, all those

875

:

things that there are opportunities

that our children could benefit from.

876

:

And I think of all the lost great black

fencers, the polo maker, the things

877

:

that their lives are already limited

because we're not seeing images.

878

:

So this guy uses fencing and

fencing, you wear the mask.

879

:

So we take off the mask.

880

:

Then you see the color of the black man.

881

:

Yes, yes, but that book is banned

and I think it's banned because

882

:

it's still for some people.

883

:

The idea that people could marry

across races is still awful.

884

:

So when we talk about, you know, the

white supremacist and you can't tell

885

:

me they're not mixed flat, they're

just fooling themselves with ever.

886

:

They think they're pure white, but it's.

887

:

I think it's literally banned because

it's, uh, it's anti miscegenation.

888

:

People don't want to think that a black

and white person or a white and Japanese

889

:

person, and Peter Westbrook, by the

way, is Japanese and African American.

890

:

They don't want to believe that love

exists because the black Brother ends

891

:

with all the kids in the school doing a

project of exploring their own heritage.

892

:

And the boys are wearing t shirts.

893

:

Heritage is lit.

894

:

You know, what's yours?

895

:

Or, you know, it's wonderful

to find out these stories.

896

:

So that's a wondrous ending.

897

:

And yet that book is banned.

898

:

Tony Tidbit: You know, what's

funny though, you know, and let's

899

:

go back to that spirituality.

900

:

Right.

901

:

I remember as a kid, six, seven, we

used to watch the old Earl Flynn movies.

902

:

You remember when, right.

903

:

And he would pull out his sword on guard

and then me and my brother would grab the

904

:

curtain rods and we would, you know, try

to fence blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

905

:

Right.

906

:

What if we saw a black Earl Flynn?

907

:

Yes.

908

:

Yes.

909

:

Yes.

910

:

Saying on God.

911

:

All right.

912

:

And again, it just don't, I don't know,

but I'm shocked that that book is,

913

:

you know, it's just so disheartening

that these books are banned.

914

:

Okay.

915

:

Um, But what's not disheartening

is me and, um, Noelle sitting here

916

:

being memorized, uh, mesmerized by

the stories that you tell, okay,

917

:

and the education in those stories,

because a lot of the things you just

918

:

got finished talking about throughout

this episode is some, a lot of stuff.

919

:

I had no clue as well.

920

:

Okay.

921

:

And.

922

:

As I'm sitting here listening, and I, I

again try to think not just of myself, but

923

:

other people who would know these things,

how they would feel up and feel good to

924

:

hear how these stories make you feel good.

925

:

Yeah, right.

926

:

It makes a self a sense of,

of, of appreciation, a self of

927

:

accomplishment, a self of you know what?

928

:

I'm not alone.

929

:

I is not.

930

:

You know what we do?

931

:

We were fencers or we did.

932

:

We, you know, they thought

we were Napoleon or we can go

933

:

over and over and over, right?

934

:

And that sense gives you a, that,

that, that knowledge, I should say,

935

:

gives you a sense of Confidence.

936

:

Dr. Jewell Parker Rhodes: Yes.

937

:

Tony Tidbit: That if they did

it, if I can learn about them and

938

:

they and I can see them and hear

their stories, then guess what?

939

:

I can make my own story.

940

:

So one thing I want to ask you, because

I know you're writing some new book.

941

:

So tell us about the new book

942

:

Dr. Jewell Parker Rhodes:

that you're writing.

943

:

Um, well, actually I finished it and

it's called wills race for home and

944

:

you can get a preorder discount on

Barnes Noble for the next two days.

945

:

And actually, when I wrote magic

city line, right now, and it's 35%,

946

:

if you remember, but I had, um,

Uh, written in Magic City that, you

947

:

know, how did black people get there?

948

:

And I had written that they had

gotten there from the land, land rush.

949

:

But in Will's Race for Home,

it's a middle grade novel.

950

:

I go into it deep.

951

:

And it's like right after 25 years

after Emancipation Proclamation, you

952

:

know, and I put in Juneteenth down in

Texas and it's a father and son who are

953

:

sharecroppers and they see Land rush 160

acres for those who come to the unassigned

954

:

lands, before Oklahoma was a state and

they make the journey, and I did not

955

:

know that there were hundreds of black

people who were making that journey.

956

:

There was even a movement to create a

black state with a owned black mayor in

957

:

Oklahoma before it became a US state.

958

:

And one of the things that they

meet, they meet a young man, oh.

959

:

Not so young, but a man named

Caesar, he was a soldier, a

960

:

sergeant in the Union army.

961

:

And he's just trying to

get to water in California.

962

:

He has killed and killed in order

to help come make people free.

963

:

And he lives in a world of the

cowboys where anytime anybody

964

:

sees him, they want to shoot.

965

:

You know, it's kind of like that, you

know, I want to prove that, you know,

966

:

my gun is faster than, than your gun.

967

:

Plus in Texas and in Oklahoma,

you have the Confederacy.

968

:

And so there's these ex Confederate

soldiers who are after him, but he

969

:

decides, I'm going to put my guns down

and I'm going to go with his father

970

:

and son, help them claim their land.

971

:

And he actually can't.

972

:

Can't succeed at that and he has to he

has to leave But one of the messages that

973

:

he says is that I would fight the union

I fight on the union army over and over

974

:

again if it meant up their world could

have a boy like you To have a young boy

975

:

because he has to make the journey by

himself The last part of it will it's will

976

:

strength that carries them through and

he claims the land And then these white

977

:

men try to steal it from him but Will

surprises them because he can read his

978

:

mama taught him and he's just wonderful.

979

:

And then Will makes a decision.

980

:

Well, do I want to be this gunman or

do I want to be the father like my dad?

981

:

You know, and no, what do I want to be?

982

:

And he makes a decision.

983

:

And to me, that's why

all of our generations of

984

:

ancestors have worked so that.

985

:

Every child would have the equal

right to decide their own future

986

:

based on their own inner passions

and to make those decisions.

987

:

So it's like, yeah, Caesar, you have to

go because as much as you did for me,

988

:

I don't, I can't model my life on you.

989

:

And Caesar bravely says, yeah,

990

:

Tony Tidbit: did you

ever see the movie Shane?

991

:

You know Shane, who got shot at the end?

992

:

Shane.

993

:

Shane, the Cowboy movie, right?

994

:

The Cowboy movie.

995

:

There's a scene where I, I

996

:

Dr. Jewell Parker Rhodes: have Shane.

997

:

Shane saves the white family.

998

:

Um, but he has to go out

and kill some people.

999

:

, uh, and the little boy

you know, is crying.

:

00:54:47,330 --> 00:54:48,830

Shane, come back.

:

00:54:48,830 --> 00:54:50,330

Shane come back.

:

00:54:50,330 --> 00:54:50,600

You know?

:

00:54:50,645 --> 00:54:53,210

'cause he's been so

meaningful to the family.

:

00:54:53,330 --> 00:54:53,420

Mm-Hmm.

:

00:54:53,660 --> 00:54:58,040

. My story is a reverse of that, where

a black man one had the courage

:

00:54:58,040 --> 00:54:59,805

to say, no, I'm just gonna be.

:

00:55:00,250 --> 00:55:05,650

Bring you trouble not because of who I

am but because I fought for freedom And

:

00:55:05,650 --> 00:55:10,350

even though the war has ended the racism

still exists Okay So i'm going to leave

:

00:55:10,380 --> 00:55:15,320

and a young black boy instead of saying

shane come back or caesar come back

:

00:55:15,360 --> 00:55:21,380

Has a strength to say Yes, you have to

go and he's going to stand on his own

:

00:55:21,390 --> 00:55:25,770

two feet as his own young man And to

me that's a classic difference between

:

00:55:25,770 --> 00:55:30,400

what a white boy could do in those times

Versus a black kid and the way in which

:

00:55:30,450 --> 00:55:36,795

our children are Sort of pressured to

grow up in a different kind of way, or

:

00:55:36,795 --> 00:55:40,505

like we were talking earlier, weathering

that they get weathered by race.

:

00:55:40,905 --> 00:55:44,295

If they're 12 years old,

8 year old, whatever, even

:

00:55:44,295 --> 00:55:45,735

though we might not imagine it.

:

00:55:45,945 --> 00:55:50,465

And so my books try to fight against

that weathering and those black land

:

00:55:50,465 --> 00:55:54,485

rushers, they were the ones that went

ahead and, you know, 20 some years later.

:

00:55:54,780 --> 00:55:58,440

Bill Deak Breedwood, the richest

black community in America,

:

00:55:58,670 --> 00:56:00,450

called the Negroes Wall Street.

:

00:56:00,660 --> 00:56:01,780

And then what happened?

:

00:56:02,000 --> 00:56:03,500

It was bombed from the air.

:

00:56:03,750 --> 00:56:08,330

So that sort of sense of history, you

know, we take two steps forward and

:

00:56:08,330 --> 00:56:12,700

then step back, or the wave crashes

forward and then it pulls, you know,

:

00:56:12,700 --> 00:56:18,425

the the The sand stuff in and seeing

that pattern to the historical novels,

:

00:56:18,485 --> 00:56:22,785

to all of our history, I think, can

help keep our resilience strong.

:

00:56:23,245 --> 00:56:26,945

Um, but certainly, um, you know,

when, when was the last time, like,

:

00:56:26,945 --> 00:56:30,410

we talk about Bass Reeves, you know,

the black, You know, Marshall, but

:

00:56:30,420 --> 00:56:33,470

just even the idea that, yeah, there

were black people everywhere in this

:

00:56:33,470 --> 00:56:35,600

world, and we don't know their stories.

:

00:56:35,820 --> 00:56:40,530

So, as a Western writer, I have a

particular advantage because I don't

:

00:56:40,530 --> 00:56:45,070

just have to talk about the South to

North migration, but I wanted to talk

:

00:56:45,090 --> 00:56:49,410

about, you know, there were a lot of

black people went West, and my family

:

00:56:49,410 --> 00:56:53,030

actually went to California for a

while originally, and that made all the

:

00:56:53,030 --> 00:56:57,400

difference in the world for us in our

sort of generational accomplishments.

:

00:56:57,400 --> 00:56:57,479

Thanks.

:

00:56:57,870 --> 00:56:59,610

Wow, we're everywhere.

:

00:57:00,100 --> 00:57:00,310

Tony Tidbit: Yeah.

:

00:57:00,310 --> 00:57:03,000

Yeah, we're I mean not only we're

everywhere, but we have a story

:

00:57:03,000 --> 00:57:06,710

to tell and when there's a history

about this as well Final thoughts.

:

00:57:06,710 --> 00:57:08,000

Where do you want to leave the audience?

:

00:57:08,000 --> 00:57:08,300

Dr.

:

00:57:08,300 --> 00:57:08,800

Rhodes?

:

00:57:11,610 --> 00:57:15,435

Dr. Jewell Parker Rhodes: More than

More than anything, I want, I would,

:

00:57:15,505 --> 00:57:19,875

I would like you to read my books

and share books with my children and

:

00:57:19,875 --> 00:57:21,795

share books with, with the schools.

:

00:57:22,295 --> 00:57:27,835

And quite honestly, my personal

philanthropy is giving away lots of books,

:

00:57:27,845 --> 00:57:31,825

you know, cause I never had any when I

was growing up, but wherever you are,

:

00:57:31,825 --> 00:57:36,985

wherever you live, I'm sure there's a boy

scout or girl scout troop, or there's a

:

00:57:37,425 --> 00:57:39,835

public school that doesn't have a library.

:

00:57:40,155 --> 00:57:44,955

Um, there are, kids in the juvenile

justice system who could use books.

:

00:57:45,235 --> 00:57:49,625

You know, if you're going to buy a book,

if you can buy one for yourself or don't

:

00:57:49,625 --> 00:57:53,735

buy one for yourself, but buy and give

one to someone else who can't get it.

:

00:57:54,105 --> 00:57:55,715

Books have gotten expensive.

:

00:57:56,055 --> 00:57:58,995

And I have a letters from editors

who once told me, you know,

:

00:57:58,995 --> 00:58:00,265

black people don't read books.

:

00:58:00,465 --> 00:58:03,695

And that was why they couldn't

publish me and diversity.

:

00:58:03,695 --> 00:58:07,605

We have more diverse books, but

they are retrenching that again,

:

00:58:07,605 --> 00:58:09,185

we're going, we're going backwards.

:

00:58:09,425 --> 00:58:09,635

Tony Tidbit: Right.

:

00:58:09,675 --> 00:58:12,090

Dr. Jewell Parker Rhodes: But

rather, Then all of that, it's

:

00:58:12,090 --> 00:58:13,890

the touching of that one child.

:

00:58:14,150 --> 00:58:20,300

So someone who can't afford, has the

need, should know, just be generous

:

00:58:20,320 --> 00:58:23,100

and give it to that, that person.

:

00:58:23,490 --> 00:58:29,480

Um, please, you know, um, and if you

need help, uh, I, everybody in my family,

:

00:58:29,480 --> 00:58:32,350

they know if you want to get a present

from Jewel, it's going to be a book that

:

00:58:32,725 --> 00:58:36,355

She donated or hundreds of, I'm giving

hundreds of books in New York city.

:

00:58:36,355 --> 00:58:39,075

I, if you need help, I'll

be happy to help you.

:

00:58:39,325 --> 00:58:40,505

That is all I do.

:

00:58:41,345 --> 00:58:45,335

Cause I've been across our country

and I've been in schools that were

:

00:58:45,335 --> 00:58:50,815

predominantly black where literally they

had no books or they had one or two.

:

00:58:51,055 --> 00:58:55,645

I've been to a school in Chicago where it

was all black and they had everybody from

:

00:58:55,645 --> 00:59:00,340

K through eight come to see me, but the

library couldn't afford to have My book,

:

00:59:00,340 --> 00:59:04,160

they didn't have it, you know, and also

they didn't have any little letters for

:

00:59:04,160 --> 00:59:08,950

the little kids to send the check in with

from their mama and dada to buy a book.

:

00:59:08,950 --> 00:59:09,380

Right?

:

00:59:09,730 --> 00:59:13,460

And I remember this driver saying

to me, Oh, this is very special.

:

00:59:13,650 --> 00:59:15,440

Your publisher sent you to an audience.

:

00:59:15,440 --> 00:59:18,360

It's not going to buy your

book, but they sent you anyway.

:

00:59:18,380 --> 00:59:19,260

And I was so cool.

:

00:59:19,645 --> 00:59:23,575

hurt because I had just come from a

school out in the suburbs that had

:

00:59:23,625 --> 00:59:28,085

every bell and whistle you can imagine

that was predominantly white and

:

00:59:28,095 --> 00:59:31,725

every single one of them had their

little pieces of paper signed so I

:

00:59:31,725 --> 00:59:33,385

could sign and give a book to them.

:

00:59:33,675 --> 00:59:37,895

So it's not just black people,

it's rural people, um, Native

:

00:59:37,925 --> 00:59:39,955

people, Hispanic people.

:

00:59:40,245 --> 00:59:45,565

The underfunding of public education

is awful, but a child having

:

00:59:45,575 --> 00:59:48,265

one book that they could hold.

:

00:59:49,140 --> 00:59:50,450

It can change their life.

:

00:59:50,470 --> 00:59:51,640

It literally can.

:

00:59:51,650 --> 00:59:54,660

It changed my life and

helped make me who I am.

:

00:59:57,480 --> 00:59:58,580

Tony Tidbit: Amen to that.

:

00:59:58,590 --> 00:59:59,130

Dr.

:

00:59:59,620 --> 01:00:00,480

Oh my God.

:

01:00:00,890 --> 01:00:01,190

Dr.

:

01:00:01,190 --> 01:00:04,310

Jewel Parker Rhodes, we want to

thank you for coming on a Black

:

01:00:04,310 --> 01:00:09,320

Executive Perspective, sharing

your story, your perspective, the

:

01:00:09,320 --> 01:00:11,760

history that we all need to learn.

:

01:00:11,760 --> 01:00:16,555

And more importantly, your last message

about Giving and sharing books to

:

01:00:16,555 --> 01:00:22,325

our youth to make sure that they can

grow up and learn about who they are.

:

01:00:22,715 --> 01:00:28,505

And more importantly, how that could

change their lives, change your life.

:

01:00:28,505 --> 01:00:29,565

So I want to thank you.

:

01:00:29,845 --> 01:00:33,965

We're going to put your

information up on our website.

:

01:00:34,490 --> 01:00:37,200

We want to help push books to school.

:

01:00:37,200 --> 01:00:40,620

So I'm going to circle back with

you where we can discuss with me

:

01:00:40,620 --> 01:00:44,410

and my team and yourself and how we

can partner and we can push out and

:

01:00:44,420 --> 01:00:49,370

give out a lot of books because I

just think someone like yourself.

:

01:00:50,030 --> 01:00:53,610

I mean, and again, you're very

accomplished, but I just think

:

01:00:53,640 --> 01:00:58,490

there's so much that you're doing

that we need to help amplify that.

:

01:00:58,875 --> 01:01:03,555

And push that out so more people can

see it hear it and get involved with it.

:

01:01:03,825 --> 01:01:06,265

Dr. Jewell Parker Rhodes:

Oh, thank you No, i'm there.

:

01:01:06,465 --> 01:01:06,925

I'm there.

:

01:01:06,965 --> 01:01:12,185

I'm there to help, you know, and uh,

lots of times I will in fact get busy

:

01:01:12,185 --> 01:01:14,755

But particularly for title one schools.

:

01:01:14,995 --> 01:01:19,765

I try to give my heart sometimes

i've i've flown there Or done zooms

:

01:01:20,125 --> 01:01:24,225

in particular because that kid was

me That, you know, and it's so many

:

01:01:24,225 --> 01:01:28,555

more and having, it's like that

Langston Hughes's dream deferred.

:

01:01:28,915 --> 01:01:36,305

We are still having too many undereducated

children or miseducated children having

:

01:01:36,315 --> 01:01:41,565

dreams deferred, but worse than the

dream deferred, they don't even know

:

01:01:41,575 --> 01:01:43,495

that there are dreams they could have.

:

01:01:43,825 --> 01:01:44,535

They don't see it.

:

01:01:45,065 --> 01:01:45,955

Exactly,

:

01:01:46,015 --> 01:01:46,775

Tony Tidbit: exactly.

:

01:01:46,825 --> 01:01:48,015

Thank you again, Dr.

:

01:01:48,015 --> 01:01:50,235

Rhodes, but stay there because Dr.

:

01:01:50,235 --> 01:01:52,535

Rhodes is going to help us

with our call to action.

:

01:01:52,665 --> 01:01:56,175

So I think it's now

time for Tony's tidbit.

:

01:01:56,175 --> 01:02:01,595

And the tidbit today is also based

on what we talked about with Dr.

:

01:02:01,595 --> 01:02:06,055

Rhodes and the tidbit I quote, to

ignore African American history

:

01:02:06,065 --> 01:02:10,895

is to ignore a crucial part of

our collective story as a nation.

:

01:02:11,610 --> 01:02:15,690

It is through understanding and

acknowledging this history that we

:

01:02:15,690 --> 01:02:21,750

can work towards a more inclusive

and edible future for all.

:

01:02:22,230 --> 01:02:24,130

And you heard that today by Dr.

:

01:02:24,130 --> 01:02:24,670

Rhodes.

:

01:02:24,680 --> 01:02:30,575

So also, every Thursday, please, Don't

forget to check out needs to know by Dr.

:

01:02:30,575 --> 01:02:35,645

Nasingha Burton, who brings the knowledge

on things that you need to keep up on.

:

01:02:35,645 --> 01:02:35,975

Right?

:

01:02:35,975 --> 01:02:39,085

So every Thursday, check her out, tune in.

:

01:02:39,085 --> 01:02:43,005

She's going to give you the insights,

the knowledge on the issues that

:

01:02:43,005 --> 01:02:46,365

matter that's here on a black

executive perspective podcast.

:

01:02:46,685 --> 01:02:50,735

I hope you enjoyed today's

episode, uncovering history and

:

01:02:50,735 --> 01:02:54,765

empowering the self confident

self with a conversation with Dr.

:

01:02:55,045 --> 01:02:56,315

Jewel Parkin Rhodes.

:

01:02:56,465 --> 01:02:56,845

So now.

:

01:02:57,495 --> 01:03:00,635

I think it's time for our call to action.

:

01:03:00,915 --> 01:03:04,805

And for those, if this is your first time

listening or watching a black executive

:

01:03:04,805 --> 01:03:07,295

perspective podcast, our mission.

:

01:03:07,635 --> 01:03:11,185

Is to decrease all forms of racism.

:

01:03:11,635 --> 01:03:17,645

And to do that, we have a call

to action called less L E S S.

:

01:03:17,685 --> 01:03:24,315

And this is something that every person,

every human being can do on their own.

:

01:03:24,710 --> 01:03:29,150

So we can be able to

decrease all forms of racism.

:

01:03:29,160 --> 01:03:31,530

So L stands for learn.

:

01:03:31,860 --> 01:03:33,670

You want to learn as Dr.

:

01:03:33,670 --> 01:03:37,900

Rhodes talked about, you want to learn

about history that you don't know.

:

01:03:37,900 --> 01:03:42,580

You want to learn about cultural

nuances from different races so

:

01:03:42,590 --> 01:03:44,350

you can become more enlightened.

:

01:03:45,520 --> 01:03:48,535

Dr. Jewell Parker Rhodes: And

E which stands for Empathy,

:

01:03:48,895 --> 01:03:52,635

learning and understanding and

sharing different perspectives.

:

01:03:53,035 --> 01:03:59,145

Empathy is, but brings a compassion that

we have to our own sort of human nature,

:

01:03:59,185 --> 01:04:04,255

you know, across every sort of distinction

of age, gender, religion, race, et cetera.

:

01:04:04,685 --> 01:04:07,030

And finally, S.

:

01:04:07,310 --> 01:04:08,430

Share.

:

01:04:09,070 --> 01:04:09,710

Talk.

:

01:04:09,850 --> 01:04:10,500

Share.

:

01:04:10,510 --> 01:04:12,430

Give what you know to others.

:

01:04:12,800 --> 01:04:15,540

In particular, tell your

stories to your children.

:

01:04:15,810 --> 01:04:18,470

Encourage your grandparents

to tell their stories.

:

01:04:18,930 --> 01:04:20,940

Share your views of the world.

:

01:04:21,660 --> 01:04:27,620

Tony Tidbit: Absolutely, and the final S

is You wanna, we wanna stop all forms of

:

01:04:27,620 --> 01:04:30,460

discrimination as it walks into our path.

:

01:04:30,690 --> 01:04:35,200

So if you hear Auntie Gail say at

the Thanksgiving table something

:

01:04:35,210 --> 01:04:40,910

inappropriate, you say, Auntie Gail, we

don't believe that, we don't say that.

:

01:04:40,990 --> 01:04:43,040

And you stop it right there.

:

01:04:43,370 --> 01:04:48,170

And by everyone

incorporating less, L E S S.

:

01:04:48,410 --> 01:04:52,390

We're going to build a more

understanding, more inclusive world.

:

01:04:52,810 --> 01:04:58,000

And more importantly, we'll all

see the change that we want to see.

:

01:04:58,420 --> 01:05:04,830

Because less will become more so

you can follow a black executive

:

01:05:04,830 --> 01:05:08,200

perspective on all the podcast platforms.

:

01:05:08,370 --> 01:05:12,880

You can also follow us on our

social Facebook, LinkedIn, Tik

:

01:05:12,950 --> 01:05:18,590

TOK X in YouTube at a black exec

for our fabulous, passionate.

:

01:05:19,920 --> 01:05:20,970

Oh, yes.

:

01:05:21,195 --> 01:05:21,825

Dr.

:

01:05:22,065 --> 01:05:23,345

Parker Jewel Rhodes.

:

01:05:23,365 --> 01:05:27,475

We love you to death for

the lady behind the glass.

:

01:05:27,545 --> 01:05:29,885

Noel Miller, who's making all this happen.

:

01:05:30,245 --> 01:05:31,445

I'm Tony tidbit.

:

01:05:31,825 --> 01:05:32,925

We talked about it.

:

01:05:33,015 --> 01:05:33,555

Guess what?

:

01:05:33,585 --> 01:05:36,765

We learned about it today and we're out

:

01:05:40,875 --> 01:05:41,045

BEP Narrator: a

:

01:05:41,045 --> 01:05:43,465

black executive perspective.

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