What is a land race? How is promiscuous pollination different from open pollinated? How do you maintain diversity over multiple seasons? Can a land race be scaled down successfully to flourish in a home garden? Does Joseph Lofthouse sing beautifully? All this and so much more in this episode of Song and Plants!

Opening tune: Solanaceae by Carmen Porter (https://carmenporter.com)

Awesome links:

https://goingtoseed.org/

https://lofthouse.com/

Welcome to Song and Plants.

2

My name is Carmen Porter.

3

In this episode, I was joined by Joseph

Lofthouse to explore landrace gardening.

4

I decided to include this interview

in the Solanaceae series because it

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seems that the majority of cultivar

development of this family of food crops

6

is heavily dominated by institutions

and their emerging technologies.

7

Joseph's book, Land Race Gardening,

Food Security Through Biodiversity

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and Promiscuous Pollination,

however, makes cultivar selection

9

accessible and irresistible.

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His book has inspired an online community

and organization that promote genetically

11

diverse seed saving practices, which

produce locally adapted resilient crops.

12

I hope you enjoy our conversation.

13

Welcome to Song and Plants.

14

Would you mind introducing yourself?

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Joseph Lofthouse: Hi,

I'm Joseph Lofthouse.

16

I'm a farmer, plant breeder

that lives up in northern Utah.

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And I'm a yogi.

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I love dancing and singing.

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And so it's beautiful to be on song

and dance, er, song and garden today.

20

Song and plants today.

21

Carmen: Excellent.

22

Well, thank you and welcome.

23

Landrace Gardening.

24

Would you mind giving a little overview

of what it is and how it works?

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Joseph Lofthouse: Yeah, so land race

gardening is the idea of growing

26

plants in a location so that

27

they become adapted to the land and

the people that are living on the land.

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And it really works beautifully.

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Well, I define landrace gardening as

plants that are genetically diverse,

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promiscuously pollinating, so that

they can adapt themselves to the local

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ecosystem and the local human community.

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Carmen: Fantastic.

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How do you set up a landrace?

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Joseph Lofthouse: Well, the

number one thing you need to be

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doing is saving your own seeds.

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Because then they can

become locally adapted.

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And rather than trying to keep

things pure and inbred, if you

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allow them to cross pollinate, they

adapt easier to the environment

39

and changes in the environment.

40

Carmen: So, Saving your seeds for

preserving a cultivar and developing a

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land race, what would be the difference?

42

Joseph Lofthouse: Well, so the If

you're trying to preserve a cultivar,

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what you're doing is inbreeding.

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And every time we do inbreeding

on a plant, it becomes a little

45

bit weaker, a little bit less

able to deal with the ecosystem.

46

And so some of, like, our

beloved heirlooms have been

47

inbred for 50 years, 100 years.

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And when I plant them in my garden, they

tend to do poorly, because my garden

49

is way different than the gardens

were a hundred years ago in Iowa or

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wherever the heirloom was invented.

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But when I allow those heirlooms to cross

pollinate with each other, then they

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can rearrange their genetics and begin

to get comfortable in my garden again.

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Carmen: So is it kind of like the

first stage, you're allowing them

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to become hybrids, naturally?

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Joseph Lofthouse: Yes, so

naturally occurring hybrids , a

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hybrid might actually do better

or worse in my ecosystem depending

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on, what the parents were.

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On average, the hybrids tend to

perform, like in tomatoes, about 50

59

percent better than the heirlooms.

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And so if we're encouraging the natural

hybridization, then our crops tend to

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be more reliable than the inbred crops.

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Carmen: So would your setup be just

plant as much diversity as you can?

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Joseph Lofthouse: Well, I have

two different ways to go about it.

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The first way like when I worked

on watermelon, I gathered the seeds

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from 300 varieties of watermelon

and planted them all together.

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You know, and I had five that actually

survived for me that first year.

67

But I also might do it by growing

my favorite squash and, it gets

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cross pollinated by another squash

that isn't quite my favorite.

69

And then, you know, just gradual,

gradual select for what does good,

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and especially for what I enjoy

eating, for what tastes lovely.

71

One of the big joys of landrace gardening,

or we also call it adaptation gardening,

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is that the plants learn what I like

to eat, and they provide that for me.

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And that partially happens because if

I'm saving seeds from every plant in

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every generation, then I don't want to

save seeds from plants that taste bad.

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I don't want to save seeds, like from a

squash that I can't cut with my knife.

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So all this selection is going on.

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And selection is also going on

for like the bugs and the climate

78

and my habits as a farmer.

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And so the plants can really become

adapted to the local conditions

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and my way of doing things.

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My community's way of eating.

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Carmen: And so in the first generation,

the ones that don't grow well just

83

won't survive and produce seed.

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Joseph Lofthouse: Correct.

85

And sometimes they might put a little

bit of pollen into the patch, Even

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if they didn't produce a seed, they

might put a little bit of pollen,

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and so a trait from that pollen can

show up 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 years later.

88

But, generally in the first year,

what's totally unsuitable just dies.

89

And then in the second year, you get the

survivors crossing with the survivors.

90

And I think of the third year as

the magical year, because by then

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you've got the best of the best

cross pollinating with each other.

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And it can be really

joyful, that third year.

93

Carmen: And then how do you maintain it?

94

Because when you have those

crossing, do you have to continue

95

bringing in new genetics?

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Joseph Lofthouse: Well, I like

to bring in a little bit of

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new genetics from time to time.

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Like if I normally grow 20 squash

plants, I might plant one new

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squash variety just to see if it

likes my garden, if I like it.

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And if I don't, I just

don't save seeds from it.

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But if I do, then I just fold it

in with all the rest of the squash.

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So I like a little bit of diversity.

103

Another way I maintain diversity is

by trading seeds with my neighbors.

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Because they're growing the same

species in approximately the same

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climate, with the same habits.

106

And so, trading seeds with the neighbors

is another beautiful way to bring

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genetic diversity into my garden.

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Yeah.

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Carmen: So it's a very different approach

in terms of there's no isolation.

110

Joseph Lofthouse: Well, I do

a little bit of isolation.

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For example, I don't like my sweet corn

and my popcorn to cross, because then I

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get popcorn that doesn't pop, and I get

sweet corn that is hard and hard to chew.

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And so, you know, I do minimal isolation.

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But I don't isolate my red

sweet corn from my yellow sweet

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corn from my white sweet corn.

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And so my sweet corn ends up being a

mix of You know, just beautiful colors

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and each of the colors has a different

flavor to it, and so I get all kinds of

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joy and happiness out of the flavors.

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And like in the melons, I

select for aromas that are

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just beautiful and amazing.

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So it ends up being really joyful

to eat food because I think part of

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what's going on is if we're loving on

our plants, we're touching them with

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our fingers, we're giving them our

microbes and our DNA, and I think they

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hold onto that and give it back to us.

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I think varieties that have, or,

only touched by metal, you know,

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because the farmer never touches the

squash and never touches the seed.

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And I think that those plants can't

give us as much joy as the plants

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that we actually, you know, are

changing our microbiomes with.

129

Carmen: When you mentioned the

watermelons, how long did it take you to

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start getting more than five watermelons?

131

Joseph Lofthouse: The second year

did better than the first year.

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But watermelons in my climate are

way outside of their comfort zone.

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And so they're one of those crops

that I'm always, they're always a

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little bit of a struggle for me.

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It's kind of like me

trying to grow an orange.

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It's not going to happen outside

here, I would have to build

137

a greenhouse or something.

138

But for other crops like the squash

or the melons, the third year is

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really the beautiful, magical year.

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Like when I was growing cantaloupes, the

first year I planted thirty varieties,

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and maybe five of them did okay for me.

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But then the second year, I planted

about three hundred seeds, and there

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were two plants that produced more than

all the rest of the patch combined.

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You know, and then so the third

year, I was harvesting just bushels

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and bushels of muskmelons and they

were ready way before my frost.

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That works particularly

well with the melons because

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they're an outcrossing species.

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The species that are outcrossing are

rapidly rearranging their genetics.

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And so they can really,

really change fast.

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Where something like a, bean,

which is mostly inbreeding.

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Like what happens with those is if I

plant a hundred varieties of beans,

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95 of them just die the first year.

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And then the other, you know, five

varieties, they just keep growing year

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after year and they hardly ever cross.

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But what I do in the case of the beans

is I just watch really carefully to

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see if any natural crossing occurred.

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And if I can identify a natural

cross, then I plant that

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preferentially over the inbred beans.

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Carmen: What would you be looking

for to identify a natural cross?

160

Joseph Lofthouse: Well, like if my

beans are always pink, but one year they

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turn out pink with spots on them, you

know, then that would say, oh, here's

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something new I've never saw before.

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It's most likely a hybrid.

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Carmen: You mentioned your

climate where exactly, like what

165

conditions are you dealing with?

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Joseph Lofthouse: So, I live at 5, 000

feet elevation up in a mountain valley.

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And it's in the desert, so I

have like 5 percent humidity

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in the evenings, in the summer.

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And the cold air comes down out of

the 9, 000 foot tall mountains that

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are like less than 5 miles from

my garden, all summer, all winter.

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My soil is like clay silt.

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Probably technically it's

called the silty loam.

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And so it really holds on to the

nutrients good, but it also has a pH

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that's really high, and so that tends

to cause problems for some species.

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Oh, and I have unlimited

irrigation water, basically.

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Ha, ha, ha, ha.

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Carmen: do you have a

hard freeze in the winter?

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Joseph Lofthouse: Yes, My

garden is covered with snow

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between November to mid March.

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And our low temperatures might be

around minus fifteen, minus twenty.

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And because we're in a valley, the cold

air will come and it will sit like for

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a week or something before the wind

blows and it warms up a little bit.

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Carmen: What are some of the crops

that you have found to be the

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most successful for land racing?

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Joseph Lofthouse: So, anything

that is promiscuously pollinating.

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So, that would be things like fava beans,

squash, melons, cucumbers, corn, any of

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the brassicas, like that would be cabbage

and mustards and, kale, things like that.

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Carmen: and promiscuously

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pollinating?

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Joseph Lofthouse: Yes.

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So I use the term promiscuously

pollinating because there's a

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term in the seed industry that

is called open pollinated.

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And I want to distinguish what I'm

doing from open pollinated seeds.

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Because, what open pollinated actually,

or what we think it means is like, Oh,

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we don't really know who's the daddy.

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You know, there could be...

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but no, what it actually means is

we've done everything we know how

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to do with cages and isolation

distances to prevent the crops from

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actually crossing with each other.

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They might technically cross with each

other, but if a clone crosses with a

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clone, it's still a clone kind of idea.

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And so I use the term promiscuously

pollinating because it says we

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really do want to encourage that

things are cross pollinating.

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Carmen: Another term that you

mentioned is male sterility.

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Joseph Lofthouse: Eww, yeah.

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Carmen: How

207

does that emerge?

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Joseph Lofthouse: Okay, so The seed

industry likes to sell hybrids because

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if they're selling a hybrid, then it's

basically proprietary, you need to

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buy the seed every year from them.

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And so with big fruited, or big seeded

things like squash that produce,

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you know, hundreds of seeds with one

attempt to the pollination, you can

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just do those pollinations by hand.

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But if you start dealing with little

things like carrots or cabbages that

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have these little teeny tiny flowers,

and they produce two or three or four

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seeds, it's really hard to make a hybrid.

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But, what the seed companies

discovered is they discovered if you

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took, like the nucleus out of a say

a cabbage and put it into a carrot

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that it wouldn't produce pollen.

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And so you have a plant

that is male sterile.

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And so then you can just grow a whole

bunch of seed and let the bees do

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the cross pollination because all of

the pollen will come from a different

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variety than the one that is sterile.

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And, So, a lot of the

cabbages and the carrots

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that

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Joseph Lofthouse: are sold as hybrids are

actually using that sort of technology.

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And I choose not to use that technology

in my garden because I like to know

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that my flowers are complete, that

they have the male part and the

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female part that's fully functional.

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Carmen: So if you see it

emerged, you just cull them?

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Joseph Lofthouse: Yes, so when I

originally started growing carrots, I

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just got carrots from the grocery store

and the seed catalog and, I planted

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hybrid carrots and it turned out that

about seventy percent of my seeds

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the next year had that sterile trait.

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And you can see that because the,

flowers were missing the anthers.

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And the anther is the part of the flower

that sheds pollen into the patch.

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And so it was really easy for

me just to pull those out.

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And if I miss a few, no big deal

because there's plenty of pollen

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running around the patch and

they'll get pollinated anyway.

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But it's just something that I watch

for and continuously remove as I see it.

241

Carmen: So if that genetics is in the mix,

it will continue into further generations?

242

Joseph Lofthouse: Yes.

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And it's really complicated and biology

is fuzzy, but basically once that trait

244

gets into a line, it doesn't come out.

245

You can't get rid of it without, you

know, killing the plant kind of thing.

246

Carmen: But it tends to

be on small flowered...

247

Joseph Lofthouse: yes.

248

There are no commercial bean hybrids,

I think, because you cross pollinate

249

a bean and you get, you know,

three or four seeds kind of thing.

250

Carmen: In your book you talk

about the processing of beans.

251

Because I know some have problems

with beans, so do you mind just

252

touching on that for a second?

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Because I found it really interesting.

254

Joseph Lofthouse: So the way that I grow

beans is I plant them all, all many

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different varieties all jumbled up

together, and either the frost kills

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them or they just die in the fall.

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And I let them dry in the field, and

then I pull the whole plant, throw

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it on a tarp, jump up and down on it,

dance if I'm feeling fun and joyful,

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sing a song, and, and, and then You can

just scrape off the plant material and

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the beans are left laying on the tarp.

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And then you can dump them between

a couple of buckets while the wind is

262

blowing and all of the chaffy stuff

will fly away, leaving you with beans.

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And then I need to sort them by

hand because sometimes I pull up a

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little piece of the root that has

little pebbles on it or something.

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And if I was being really careful, I

would cut the beans off at the root so

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that I wasn't taking that soil with me.

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And also if I'm being careful, I make

sure there's no pebbles in my shoes

268

when I jump up and down on them.

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But usually what happens is I'm

harvesting the beans right before

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a terrible storm is expected.

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And So I'm rushed, and it's like,

just get it done, and we can sort

272

them in the kitchen a month from

now when it's warm and toasty.

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Carmen: And you say that they have

poisons or they aren't very digestible.

274

So, what do you do?

275

Joseph Lofthouse: Beans have, I don't

know the name of the poison, but

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they have a little bit of poison in.

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And we have a long history as humans

of knowing how to deal with beans.

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You soak them.

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That takes some of the poisons out.

280

You cook them for a long time at high

temperature, that takes the poisons out.

281

But a lot of times, people that haven't

been trained in dealing with beans

282

that way, and they'll just take, like

a bean and grind it up and make a

283

flour out of it, and make a cookie,

and the cookie is barely cooked,

284

and you bite into that cookie and

the poison just pours out at you.

285

Maybe I'm a, what they call

a super taster, I don't know.

286

But, but those kinds of things are

really annoying to me because we've

287

known for thousands of years that

beans need to be cooked really well.

288

Well, yeah, so corn really

should be nixtamalized.

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And that is cooking the

corn with an alkali.

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What they call it, calcium

oxide or calcium hydroxide.

291

And what that does is it, eliminates a

lot of the toxins that come from mold.

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And it also greatly increases

the vitamin content of the corn.

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And so when corn got taken from the

native places where it was growing and

294

it went to the rest of the world, it

caused diseases in people because they

295

weren't treating it with the alkali first.

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And, let's see, pellagra, I think

is the name of the disease that,

297

that came from replacing whatever

it was in their diet with corn

298

that hadn't been cooked in alkali.

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And also another thing that cooking

in alkali does is it really enhances

300

the flavor of the flour corns.

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Carmen: Do you find there are a lot of

different flavors between the colors?

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Joseph Lofthouse: Yes, there are.

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And some people like one

color better than another.

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And I tend to like a diversity

of colors, a diversity of flavors

305

more than I like just the same

old boring flavor every time.

306

Carmen: If you're doing a

patch of squash, are you going

307

to keep the species separate?

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Joseph Lofthouse: No, I do not

keep species separate, and that is

309

because the definition of a species

is two varieties or two plants

310

that won't cross with each other.

311

And biology is fuzzy, and so once

in a while there will be a cross,

312

but I have only seen that, like,

one time in 15 years, between

313

the normal squash varieties.

314

There are two squash called the cushaws

and the moschatas, the butternuts and the

315

cushaws, and I think of them as not quite

separate species, because I have from

316

time to time seen a cross between those.

317

But for the most part, I just don't

observe that in my day to day gardening.

318

Carmen: So is there very

little separation in general?

319

Joseph Lofthouse: Yes, because I am

trying to encourage cross pollination.

320

And so, pollination is highly localized.

321

And the best way to ensure cross

pollination is if two varieties

322

are growing side by side.

323

Because when a bee is visiting

flowers, it doesn't go from here, way

324

over there, and then back to here.

325

It goes from here, to the next closest

flower, to the next closest flower.

326

So the closer we interplant things

that can cross pollinate, the more

327

likely they are to actually cross.

328

Carmen: So would that mean that

things that are self fertile you

329

would plant very close together

to try and encourage crossing?

330

Joseph Lofthouse: Yes, for example, beans

in my garden, they cross about 1 in 200.

331

They can cross like 1 in 20, if

they're growing in an ecosystem,

332

like by a swamp next to a forest

that has all kinds of pollinators

333

that are coming into the garden.

334

But out here in the desert , my

chances of cross pollination

335

are much less on, beans.

336

But my chances of cross

pollination, like on wheat, are

337

higher because lower humidity

favors cross pollination on wheat.

338

So, it's a mixed bag, but the

closer you plant things together,

339

the more likely they are to cross.

340

And, to go the other way about

it, if you want things not to

341

cross, plant them further apart.

342

For example, with my squash, I

tend to plant the orange squash

343

on one end of the row and the green

squash on the other end of the row.

344

So the oranges will mostly cross

pollinate with the oranges.

345

The greens will mostly cross

pollinate with the greens.

346

And then where they meet, I

end up with striped squash.

347

And so, we can go both

ways with our pollination.

348

Carmen: And what kind of traits

are you looking for in your squash?

349

Joseph Lofthouse: So, the number one

trait that I always select for, well,

350

there's two that I always select for.

351

First is productivity.

352

It has to produce fruit in my garden.

353

And the second is flavor.

354

It just has to taste

beautiful and delightful.

355

I inadvertently selected for squash

that are easy to cut, because I

356

was tasting every squash for years

before I saved seeds from it.

357

And if it was hard to cut, I

was just composting it rather

358

than saving seeds from it.

359

And that was totally inadvertent.

360

I didn't know I was doing it,

but when I realized it's like, oh

361

yeah, you get what you select for.

362

And then there are other traits show

up sometimes that might be interesting.

363

For example, one time I found a squash

that had a fuzzy skin, and it's like,

364

whoa, you know, what if the fuzz

kept a deer from eating it, or kept

365

a rat from eating it, or what if the

fuzz, irritated the squash bugs?

366

You know, and there's all kinds of

possibilities about things that you

367

might see that might be useful later on.

368

And I never did anything with that

squash, but it was interesting

369

to think about the possibilities.

370

Carmen: When you were starting

your, melon land race, did you

371

have all different colors or were

they all orange cantaloupe type?

372

Joseph Lofthouse: They were all

cantaloupe types that I started with.

373

Some green fleshed ones came

into the population at one point,

374

and later on I did a separate

population with green fleshed melons.

375

So, there was just a lot to explore

there, and I didn't ever explore

376

like the Armenian Cucumber types,

and I didn't explore the, what

377

they call them, Casabas types.

378

You know, so there would be a

lot that someone could do with

379

melons that I haven't ever done.

380

Carmen: What about the Solanaceae family?

381

Have you done much

playing around with them?

382

Joseph Lofthouse: Yes, so, the

most popular page on my website

383

is actually about growing

potatoes from pollinated seeds.

384

And that's been the most

popular page for like 15 years.

385

And, What you can get is you can

just get a lot of beautiful varieties

386

and colors and flavors that come

out of, out of those crosses.

387

My favorite solanaceae, ooh, big word,

388

is the tomatoes.

389

And I was trying to breed with tomatoes

and I was just having a dickens of a time.

390

And So I did a deep dive into the

genetics of tomatoes, and it turns out

391

that 95 percent of the genetics got left

in the wild when they were domesticated,

392

because a few tomato plants went from

the Andes Mountains up to Mexico, and

393

then a few plants went from Mexico

to Europe, then they sent tomatoes

394

from Europe to the rest of the world.

395

And each time that the tomatoes

traveled, they didn't take

396

their pollinators with them.

397

And so that encouraged them

to become self pollinating.

398

And they just shed all kinds of

genetic diversity that didn't

399

get taken with them as well.

400

And so, One day I was in my tomato

patch I was doing frost tolerance

401

trials, planting 30 varieties and

seeing which ones did the best

402

in the cold and with the frost.

403

And there was one tomato plant, anytime

I went to my garden, there was a

404

bumblebee on exactly that one plant.

405

And it got me thinking we could turn

tomatoes into a cross pollinating species

406

instead of a self pollinating species.

407

And it turns out that in the

Andes, they grow primarily

408

as cross pollinating species.

409

Not only cross pollinating,

but 100 percent cross

410

pollinating every single time.

411

And so those tomatoes that do that

are green fruited, and the flavor

412

is Not something you'd want to eat.

413

But!

414

So I crossed those tomatoes with domestic

tomatoes and, what I found was I found

415

amazing flavors and amazing aromas.

416

So, I thought I was going to do a project

to select for promiscuous flowers.

417

And yes, that's one of the

primary goals of the project.

418

But what I'm really chasing is fruits

that taste like guava, and, sea

419

urchin, and melon, and citrus.

420

Just these glorious, beautiful

flavors that make my heart sing.

421

And, uh, ha, ha, ha.

422

And, and so, the tomato project has

come to define my work as a farmer.

423

'Cause I'm getting older, my ability

and my ambition are failing, but the

424

Promiscuous Tomato Project just sings to

my heart and just brings me so much joy.

425

And so that's the one I just hang

on to with everything I have.

426

Carmen: What does the flower look like?

427

Joseph Lofthouse: Oh, so in a domestic

tomato, the flowers are about half

428

inch in diameter, just these little

things and they're pale colored.

429

Some of the promiscuous tomato flowers

are like an inch and three quarters

430

across, just these big flowers with

tremendous numbers of petals, and

431

they're brightly colored, and they have

the style, which is the part that's

432

receptive to pollen, is on the outside

of the flower, so it can attract, or

433

it can rub against the belly of a bee.

434

Oftentimes, a whole flower cluster

will open up one day, and there are

435

these big fist sized flower clusters

that are way up above the foliage

436

so the bees can really get to them.

437

They're just joyful and beautiful, besides

having all these flavors and aromas

438

that we'd never expect from a tomato.

439

Carmen: What happens

in terms of the color?

440

Joseph Lofthouse: So, I have been

selecting for orange colored tomatoes,

441

because when I do blind taste testing

with people, they almost invariably

442

prefer the flavors of the orange

tomatoes over any other color.

443

I think the orange color in the tomatoes

is due to beta carotene, and beta carotene

444

is converted to vitamin A in the body.

445

And so I think people just

inherently, their bodies inherently

446

know what's good for them.

447

And one time when we were doing a

taste testing, I thought I'd be a

448

smart aleck and I went and picked one

of the domestic tomatoes out of the

449

field and brought it in and cut it.

450

And after we tasted it, the guy

that was hosting us went to the

451

kitchen and got a rag and came and

washed the cutting board so that it

452

wouldn't contaminate the flavor of the

tomatoes we're going to taste next.

453

Carmen: What happened for size?

454

Joseph Lofthouse: I have been

selecting for tomatoes that are

455

about the size of a ping pong ball.

456

Call them saladettes or as

big as, four to six ounces.

457

And that is partly due to my

ecosystem because I have about

458

90 to 100 frost free days.

459

And so I have to select for tomatoes

that jump out of the ground.

460

They really grow fast and they ripen fast.

461

And the smaller tomatoes tend to do that

quicker than the great big tomatoes.

462

Someone in a warmer climate with longer

growing season could make other choices.

463

Carmen: It's quite a short growing season.

464

Joseph Lofthouse: Ha ha ha.

465

So, if I buy tomatoes from a

seed catalog, 95 percent of them

466

will fail for me because of the

shortness of the growing season.

467

Basically, I can grow tomatoes that the

seed catalogs call maybe up to 70 days.

468

But I'm better off with 55 or

60 day tomatoes, which leaves

469

me hardly any to choose from.

470

Carmen: In your initial planting

of squash, did you select

471

ones that were short season?

472

Joseph Lofthouse: What I find is

that the ecosystem does like 80

473

percent of the selection for me.

474

So the first year that I planted

butternut squash, I planted, oh, maybe 10

475

varieties, and only, like, two or three

of them actually produced fruit for me.

476

And my growing season

that year was 88 days.

477

And then, I think two years later,

the growing season was 84 days long.

478

And so the ecosystem selected heavy,

heavy, heavy for quick maturity.

479

And what that does when I send my seeds to

someplace like, down south, my plants jump

480

out of the ground, they grow like crazy,

they produce fruit, and then they die from

481

the diseases and the pests and whatever.

482

But they've already produced an

abundant harvest, so it doesn't matter.

483

And then down south they

can plant a second crop.

484

Carmen: Can you harvest the

seed from fruit that's not quite

485

mature in your first season?

486

Joseph Lofthouse: Yes, you can.

487

Seeds tend to be viable a long time

before they're totally mature.

488

And so you can harvest seeds from

very immature fruits, and they

489

still often will produce seeds.

490

And so, on my melons, that's what

happened the first year I planted them.

491

I harvested only immature melons.

492

But then, two years later, I

was harvesting melons weeks

493

before my fall frosts.

494

Carmen: So even though the parents

would have not made it through the

495

growing season, just by growing

them there, the genetics adapted?

496

Joseph Lofthouse: Well, some of

the parents did make it through.

497

And, like, 80 percent of the parents

didn't survive, didn't produce seeds.

498

I can't really look at a seed catalog

and trust that, that it's going

499

to actually apply to my garden.

500

And so, I just end up randomly trying

varieties and what survives, shows that

501

it was capable of surviving in my garden.

502

And then, you mix up the genetics

of those, and you give them another

503

chance, and some of them are

better, capable of surviving even

504

better than their parents did.

505

Carmen: And something else that you

mentioned is keeping the old seed and

506

reintroducing it from previous seasons.

507

Joseph Lofthouse: Yeah, and the reason

I do that is because the climate

508

here in the mountains is variable.

509

Some years we'll have drought,

some years we'll have extra rainy,

510

some years will be super hot,

some years will be kind of cool.

511

And I save seeds from multiple years so

that I tend to get an average of what

512

did good over all of those different

growing conditions, rather than having

513

my whole population shift towards the

wet loving group or the dry loving group.

514

Hedging my bets kind of deal.

515

Carmen: So would that be

from like two years previous

516

or what's the sort of process?

517

Joseph Lofthouse: well for

me I keep a jar of seeds.

518

Like 80 percent of that jar of

seeds will be new seeds and 20

519

percent will be from previous years.

520

But I don't, you know

I don't make a formula.

521

I don't try to control that

and be in charge of it.

522

I just make sure that there's some

older seed that's always hanging around.

523

Carmen: Does your population or your

plantation have to be really large

524

or can you scale a land race down?

525

Joseph Lofthouse: You can scale

a landrace down because we're

526

encouraging genetic diversity.

527

And the reason to have large

populations is because the crops

528

were so inbred that they were having

problems with being too inbred.

529

And In one cob of my sweet corn, there's

more genetic diversity than, like, 10,

530

000 acres worth of commercial sweet corn.

531

And, ha ha ha, and, and so, small

scale, people can really grow landraces

532

effectively, especially if you're sharing

seeds with your neighbors, if you're

533

allowing promiscuous pollination, If

you bring in a new variety once in a

534

while, then you can avoid those sort

of problems that inbreeding created

535

in the open pollinated seed movement.

536

Carmen: Touching back into

the Solanaceae for a second.

537

Have you done any with

tomatillos or ground cherries?

538

Joseph Lofthouse: Yes, I love

tomatillos because they have the

539

100 percent outcrossing trait.

540

And what that means is that when

somebody plants tomatillos in their

541

garden, They become a weed in just a

year or two, and they never go away.

542

You can't get rid of them.

543

And I would love for tomatoes to end up

with that same sort of breeding system.

544

And this last summer, I went on

a hike up in the mountains, and

545

we have a local ground cherry.

546

And I selected Well, not a bunch

of seeds, I worked really hard

547

for a few little hints of a seed.

548

But I'm growing those this

year and intending to introduce

549

those into my garden as well.

550

Carmen: I can't help but wonder

why there aren't more varieties

551

or more projects developing them.

552

Joseph Lofthouse: Well for me, I see

them everywhere because I wrote a

553

book and a movement started about it.

554

And so But, a bunch of my readers

got together and they made a non profit

555

organization called Going to Seed.

556

They came to my garden and made videos

about me talking about land race

557

gardening and people donated enough

money to make those videos free.

558

They made a, forum to talk about it.

559

the Cliff Family Foundation donated

like 25, 000 so that we could support

560

farmers in learning to grow this

way, and so about a dozen farmers are

561

developing land races of various species.

562

And so for me, I'm right in

the middle of everything, but

563

Carmen: you said that's goingtoseed...

564

Joseph Lofthouse: goingtoseed.org

565

Carmen: org.

566

I'll put that in the show notes.

567

Joseph Lofthouse: Thank you.

568

Carmen: Along with any other

links that you give me.

569

You also mentioned potatoes.

570

So, true seed potatoes.

571

Joseph Lofthouse: So, so, the

favorite potato that I ever found by

572

growing from seeds, the tubers were

about the size of a ping pong ball.

573

But each plant would produce like

a gallon of these little tubers.

574

And they were so beautiful to rinse

off and take to the farmer's market.

575

Carmen: neat.

576

What color were they?

577

Joseph Lofthouse: They were a red

potato with a white inside, but some

578

of the potatoes were just beautiful

like they'd be yellow inside with

579

a blue skin, or they'd be a white

inside with red streaks through them.

580

Just a whole bunch of diversity.

581

Carmen: When you started with

the potatoes, did you have

582

difficulty getting them to flower?

583

Joseph Lofthouse: Well, yes,

sorta, because potatoes are

584

typically grown by cloning and

every time you clone something,

585

it damages the DNA a little bit.

586

And so most of the potatoes that people

grow are not capable of producing flowers.

587

And so, we had to select for varieties

that were capable of producing flowers

588

in the first place, and then once

those start crossing with each other,

589

then they remember how to produce

flowers and they produce a lot of seed.

590

But, those first years of finding

varieties that can produce

591

seeds is kind of troubling.

592

The same thing happens with

Like garlic and onions.

593

If you've been growing a variety

that's a clone, it often

594

has forgotten how to flower.

595

But once they start crossing with each

other, then they remember how to flower.

596

And they flower more reliably.

597

And on onions, the reliable

flowering lasts for about 10 years.

598

And then they start to

forget how to flower again.

599

Carmen: That's pretty interesting.

600

What about spinach?

601

Joseph Lofthouse: Oh, spinach is nice

because it has male plants and female

602

plants, and so you could create your own

hybrids if you had two varieties and you

603

wanted to cross them with each other.

604

It'd just be a matter of watching

early in the season and chopping

605

out the female plants in one row and

the male plants in the other row.

606

Spinach is, for me, is one of those

crops where you plant ten varieties

607

and half of them are just going

to fail totally, and half of them

608

are going to be beautiful plants.

609

Carmen: How do you deal with things

like carrots and beets being biennial?

610

Joseph Lofthouse: It's hard, because

I live in a super cold climate, and so

611

I can't really leave them out in the

elements, and so I have to either mulch

612

them really heavily so that maybe they

survive and maybe they rot because of the

613

mulch, or I bring them inside and try to

keep them alive in a refrigerator, but

614

that takes up my space, or, you know,

in a garage, but that's kind of iffy,

615

and so the biennials are rough on me.

616

It would be nice if I could

select for varieties that

617

could handle the outside cold.

618

I have done that on a few things,

like I developed a variety of

619

kale that can survive my winters.

620

Then that makes the biennials

easier to deal with.

621

Carmen: In terms of pests,

you mentioned brassica family.

622

ha.

623

Is it just selecting for what can survive?

624

Joseph Lofthouse: Yeah, and I don't do

any kind of spraying or poisoning or

625

killing of the pests, because I consider

them to be blessings to my garden.

626

They're teaching my plants how

to be strong, how to survive, how

627

to collaborate with each other.

628

And so I hardly even know that I have

a pest in my garden or a disease.

629

I remember one time a lady asked if

she could grow a little garden in my

630

field, and I'm like, sure, go ahead.

631

So she bought some squash from the

seed company and she planted it and

632

the squash bugs just pounced on it and

all kinds of diseases started affecting

633

the foliage and it was just terrible.

634

And.

635

I know they say you're not supposed to

laugh at other people's misery, but I

636

was so happy and joyful that her plants

just died like that because it, it

637

showed me that those pests and diseases

are in my garden, but they've learned

638

to live in harmony with the plants.

639

And so it was just a,

beautiful experience for me.

640

And I'm sorry for the

plant's misery, but laughs

641

Carmen: Even things like the

caterpillars on the brassicas?

642

Joseph Lofthouse: I don't really

notice much of a problem with them.

643

I know that if I grow red brassicas,

that they're more resistant to the

644

caterpillars because the the predator

can see the green caterpillars on the

645

red cabbage, and it's less of a problem.

646

Carmen: Would you also be looking for

less wrinkly kale, that sort of thing?

647

Joseph Lofthouse: Yeah, well, for

example, on spinach one time I, I

648

took a puckery leaf spinach to my

sister and she cooked it and it was

649

totally filled with little wireworms.

650

And I was so horrified and so I

started selecting for spinach that had

651

perfectly smooth leaves so that there

would be no place for the bugs to hide.

652

I imagine that similar types of

strategies can be used with the

653

brassicas and the cabbage moths.

654

Carmen: How do these plants

adjust to your style of gardening?

655

What traits have you noticed that emerge

that really show your style of gardening?

656

Joseph Lofthouse: Well, I can

think of a tomato as an example.

657

Because I grow tomatoes

sprawling on the ground.

658

And they're just in the dirt.

659

I don't try to protect them or trellis

them or not even really weed them.

660

And so a neighbor asked me how I could

grow tomatoes that are so clean and,

661

and I'm like, that's just how they grow.

662

But then I started paying attention, and

I had been saving tomato seeds only from

663

the tomatoes that were beautiful tomatoes.

664

I wasn't saving seeds from those that

had got in the dirt and rotted, and turns

665

out that the tomato vines had developed

an arching architecture to their vines.

666

So the vine would go up and make a

little bridge kind of thing that the

667

fruits could hang up off the ground.

668

And then that kept them clean

and it kept them from rotting.

669

And I didn't intend to do that.

670

It's just one of those things that

they adapted to my way of doing things.

671

And I find that over and over again,

the plants are figuring out my way of

672

doing things and adapting to it even

if I'm not consciously aware of what

673

I'm doing or what they're adapting to.

674

For example, on my beans, because I do the

stomping harvest, pretty much, any bean

675

that is like green when I do that stomp

, I'm not going to save seeds from it.

676

And so I've inadvertently selected

for seeds or for beans that I can

677

harvest all on one day, they're ready

before my fall frost or right with it.

678

So I inadvertently selected for

uniformity of harvest time for example.

679

Where somebody that was growing a

pole bean and they were harvesting

680

one pod at a time, they would be

selecting for a longer harvest window.

681

Carmen: And if you come across a

particular fruit, whether it be a

682

melon or a squash, and it's just, or

a tomato, and it's just so delicious.

683

Do you isolate it or do you

continue it in the landrace?

684

Joseph Lofthouse: So typically what

I'll do is I'll save seeds from that

685

separately, and I'll plant more of

that next year, or I'll plant it in

686

a corner of the garden so I can see

how it's going to perform, if the

687

beautiful flavor is still there.

688

And if I like that a lot, then I might

save more seeds from that next year and

689

less from the ones I don't like as much.

690

So, yeah, I'm constantly paying

attention to what I love and

691

encouraging more of that.

692

Carmen: You mention in your

book, singing to your plants.

693

Joseph Lofthouse: Uh huh.

694

Carmen: Would you mind,

perhaps sharing a song?

695

Joseph Lofthouse: I would love to.

696

So I'm going to switch my microphone.

697

I often sing this song to my plants

in my garden, and it reminds me

698

that I am part of the ecosystem,

and the ecosystem is part of me.

699

And it goes like this.

700

May all beings, everywhere,

all be happy and free.

701

In Sanskrit, the words are

Lokah Samastah Sukinho Bhavantu

702

May all beings everywhere

all be happy and free.

703

May all beings everywhere

all be happy and free.

704

May all beings everywhere

all be happy and free.

705

Lokah Samastah Sukinho Bhavantu

706

Lokah Samastah Sukinho Bhavantu

707

Lokah Samastah Sukinho Bhavantu

708

May all beings everywhere

all be happy and free.

709

May all beings everywhere

all be happy and free.

710

Carmen: Thank you.

711

Joseph Lofthouse: Thank you, Carmen.

712

Carmen: So I've mentioned

your book a number of times.

713

Joseph Lofthouse: Mm-Hmm.

714

Carmen: Would you mind letting

people know where they can find it?

715

How they can find you?

716

Joseph Lofthouse: So, I spend

most of my online time talking

717

about adaptation gardening, land

race gardening, at goingtoseed.

718

org.

719

My book is available wherever books

are sold, including, like, Amazon,

720

and Barnes Noble, and Target.

721

Landrace race Gardening, Food

security through biodiversity

722

and promiscuous pollination.

723

It could also be subtitled like

how to grow food without buying

724

seeds, fertilizers, or poisons.

725

Carmen: when you're talking about tasting

everything and how you can taste poisons.

726

Plants do produce these poisons, but

you taste every plant or every fruit

727

that you're going to save seed from.

728

Joseph Lofthouse: I made myself so

sick one day by tasting lettuce.

729

Carmen: So thank you very, very much for,

730

for joining me.

731

Actually, I do have one other

little question about the squash.

732

So I do have a hybrid that

has naturally emerged.

733

I have a tendency to let things self seed

and when they come up I let them grow.

734

And I had a hybrid that came up in a

year that my squash were absolutely

735

decimated by the squash vine borer.

736

And it came up on the compost pile

and it looks like it's a cross

737

between moschata and probably maxima.

738

Joseph Lofthouse: Okay.

739

Carmen: And the vines were hard, but the

fruit looked a lot more like a maxima.

740

And the flesh was absolutely

delicious, and it produced so many

741

fruit when all of the others died.

742

But there were barely

any seeds in the fruit.

743

So I saved them all, and I've

been planting them out for the

744

next two years, but I haven't

gotten that trait to come back.

745

Joseph Lofthouse: yeah, so, interspecies

hybrids are often not very fertile.

746

I've seen that a few times when

I've tried making those crosses.

747

If you ever find an offspring that has

that little thin vine that will resist

748

the borers, and it has the beautiful

flavor of the maxima, then woo hoo!

749

Right.

750

Carmen: If you can get it to come

back in the future generations,

751

that was the problem that I had.

752

I keep trying.

753

Joseph Lofthouse: Offspring tend

to resemble their parents and

754

their grandparents, but sometimes

the trait skips a generation.

755

Carmen: So I just have to keep trying

756

Joseph Lofthouse: Yeah.

757

There is a squash that's an interspecies

hybrid called Tetsuka Buto, which is

758

sold by Pine Tree Garden Seeds, and

that is halfway in between a moschata

759

and a maxima already, and So that

might be a place for you to look.

760

Carmen: To bring that one into my race.

761

Joseph Lofthouse: huh.

762

Carmen: Well, thanks again.

763

I really appreciated the conversation.

764

It's been lovely.

765

Joseph Lofthouse: Thank you, Carmen.

766

Carmen: Thanks for listening.

767

If there's anyone that you would like to

hear included in the Solanaceae series,

768

please don't hesitate to let me know.

769

I always love hearing your thoughts,

comments, and inspirations.

770

Just head over to CarmenPorter.

771

com to connect.

772

Happy garden dreaming.