DESCRIPTION

In this special edition of the Reimagining Growth From Within podcast, we celebrate Within People’s 10th anniversary with a conversation featuring Tom Tapper, co-founder of the creative agency Nice and Serious. Tom shares candid insights on the journey of building a purpose-driven agency, balancing profit with impact, navigating challenges like imposter syndrome, and staying true to the agency’s core values over the last decade. This episode delves into leadership, creativity, and how to remain focused on making the world a better place through meaningful work.

SHOW NOTES

Tom Tapper from Nice and Serious, a creative agency focused on sustainability issues, reflects on his journey over the past 10 years alongside Within People co-founder Jeff Melnyk. 

Through the years Nice and Serious have shifted their focus from providing creative services to becoming creative problem solvers, working on broader challenges like brand strategy and campaigning for change. They also implemented a moral compass to guide their decision-making process and ensure alignment with their values. While they have turned down lucrative projects that didn't align with their ethics, they believe that staying true to their purpose will lead to long-term success and impact. 

Tom Tapper reflects on his experience as a leader and the challenges he has faced, including imposter syndrome and the pressure to follow patterns of growth of other agencies. He discusses how he has grown more comfortable with uncertainty and trusting his own instincts. Tom also shares his thoughts on Within’s 8 Qualities of Human-centered Leadership, highlighting Conviction as his strength and Patience as his biggest stretch. He emphasizes the importance of empathy and the need to balance ambition with staying true to the agency's values. 

Looking ahead, Tom envisions Nice and Serious evolving in response to the changing needs of clients and society, while maintaining its focus on sustainability.

WHAT TO EXPECT:

• What it takes to grow a purpose-driven creative agency
• How to use decision making criteria to choose impactful work that matters to your creative team
• How to bring awareness to and manage imposter syndrome
• The qualities of leadership required to stay true to your values in challenging times
• Evolving and adapting your services as an agency to meet clients where they are at as you lead in a sector

KEYWORDS

Nice and Serious, creative agency, sustainability, film production, creative services, creative problem solvers, brand strategy, change, moral compass, decision-making, ethics, impact, imposter syndrome, leadership, conviction, patience, empathy, creativity, growth, sustainability

Hey, everyone.

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Thanks for tuning in.

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I'm Jeff from within people.

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We're a partnership operating around

the world, helping people find

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purpose and grow their business.

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10 years ago, we had a vision of a

blueprint for 21st century organizations

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where people loved who they are and what

they do, and where purpose and values

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were the foundation to growing the

business you wanted to see in the world.

9

We're really proud that it's

our 10 year anniversary.

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There have been a lot of

learnings along the way, right?

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And this special edition of our

podcast series invites the leaders

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who have been on our journey to

share their stories, with the hope

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that all of us can learn together.

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In this episode, I'm very

excited to introduce Tom Tapper.

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Tom is one of the founders of Nice

and Serious, a creative agency based

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in London that focuses on creating

a positive social and environmental

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impact through communication.

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I've known Tom from the very

genesis of his business.

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He's an exceptional, yet humble

creative with a real heart.

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His story is one that I think

will resonate with everyone

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running a creative business today.

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How to balance impact and

profit, and how to stay true to

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what growth truly means to you.

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Welcome Tom!

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Tom Tapper: Thank you for having me, Jeff.

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Jeff Melnyk: Oh, it's a pleasure.

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We've been wanting to get you on

the podcast for a while, I was

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like, we need to have a good reason

to get Tom out of the creative

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maelstrom that is nice and serious.

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I'm curious about how things are going.

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Um, but also it's our 10th birthday,

this year, and Nice and Serious

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were our first ever client.

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Tom Tapper: I feel quite,

privileged to be your first client.

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I genuinely do.

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It means a lot and, seeing how

Within has gone guinea pig.

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What's the expression?

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Jeff Melnyk: I think we

can still say guinea pig.

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It's not offensive to

the guinea pig community.

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And thank you for being the guinea pig.

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I remember when we first started and

I was like, we have some ideas of

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what we want to do with our clients.

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But of course, we needed

to Test some stuff out.

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You very kindly designed

our first ever website.

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Correct.

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Correct.

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Is it still going?

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Which I still think is my fav I wish.

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It was so simple and beautiful and really

captured who we were at the time now our.

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Website is a lot more complicated.

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It's trying to say more things, but

it was a beautiful, the nice and

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serious designed within portal was

just a beautiful scroll, wasn't it?

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here's some stuff and a little

bit about us and that's it.

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And I think that level of

simplicity is gorgeous.

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was both nice and serious.

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but that was not, cause we'd known you

for quite some time, Lori and myself.

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I was reflecting on the first time we met.

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You and, Ben, your business partner for

Nice and Serious at the time, I remember

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you guys coming into our former agency,

and I thought, who are these guys?

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had you just left college or something?

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Most people walking into our office

at that time, of your stature were

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looking for internships, but you

guys had started your own company.

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Tom Tapper: No,

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We had, we had hit puberty and we

just about graduated from college.

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So, uh, no, but we were, we, we

were, uh, I suppose, relatively young

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founders, um, in that we both met on

a master's in science communication.

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And both had a background in

environmental sciences prior to that.

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So.

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Um, the creation of Nice and Serious was

more chance than anything in that we got

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an opportunity as freelancers to work on

a film production project for Sky TV to

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educate children about um, sustainability.

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So it was more luck than

judgment at the time, even though

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our background guided that.

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So yeah, so we did come in as

young whippersnappers into, uh, the

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Tom Tapper: the Futera kind of halls of

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Jeff Melnyk: fame.

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So, , and you were punting

your wares, weren't you?

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It was a little bit like,

Hey, we're a film company.

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Can buy stuff from us, which

I think we did cause you did.

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Tom Tapper: Yeah.

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Futera were one of our

first ever clients, I think.

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Yeah.

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So it was, and obviously with Futera's

specialism, sustainability, it kind of

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was a, a nice fit in those early days.

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Jeff Melnyk: entrepreneur by accident,

was that how you found yourselves?

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Tom Tapper: Yeah, I think absolutely.

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It was definitely more of a

accident than a strategy, let's say.

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But I think sometimes when your passion

is incredibly niche or brings together

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two parts of two worlds that haven't been

connected before, which was environmental

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issues and film production, you're

kind of forced to be entrepreneurial,

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to do what you like doing.

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I think anyone in this niche or anyone

with a very specific focus doesn't

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set up a business to run a business.

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they set up a business to, fulfill

a passion or scratch an itch.

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So it was very much serendipity

rather than, a strategy.

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Jeff Melnyk: But here you are over a

decade later, , still in the serendipity.

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at what point did you realize you

had a business and it wasn't just

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projects that you were doing?

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Tom Tapper: That's a really good question.

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in the early days it feels as much

freelance as it does a kind of

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business But I think it was probably

about two years into it where we'd

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kind of cobbled together a kind of

ramshackle crew of friends and family,

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whoever was willing to help us.

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I think we got to the point where there

was probably about four or five people.

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we were, asked to pitch on a project

for the national trust, which felt

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like a much more formal process.

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by which time we'd got our own little

Three person office overlooking

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a rubbish dump in Battersea.

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And I think at that point, it wasn't

like we'd made it, but at least you

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know, we had a kettle in the office and

there was a website and a Skype phone

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that wasn't really a phone, and that

was like, okay, we have a business here,

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we need to take this seriously now.

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that was definitely that transition

point from freelance to business,

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Jeff Melnyk: was there a vision of what

you wanted to achieve at that point?

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Or was it just growing from in our

bedrooms to in the office with the

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kettle, then to bigger projects,

did it kind of slightly evolve?

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Tom Tapper: Yeah, I think it's a really

good question in the early days, because

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when a lot of, leaders look back they

project they have this crystal clear

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vision of the future, In those early

days, the growth of the company was driven

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more by a desire to make higher impact

creative work about environmental issues.

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And that led the growth of the business.

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So we wanted to be making cooler films

that reached more people that worked with

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more interesting charities and brands.

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And that kind of drew, you know, You know,

that drove the growth of the company.

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So, you know, we didn't sit

down two years in and mapped out

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a kind of five year strategy.

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It was all about, how can we make

something cooler and bigger and better?

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And that needed a few more

people that needed us to pitch

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for more exciting clients.

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I think those early days were

very much driven, from within

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rather than looking outside and.

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Saying, what do I want to

chase at this point in time?

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So, so just reflecting on it

probably was driven from more

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what we were passionate about.

134

So,

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Jeff Melnyk: I do remember we

had a little bit of a visioning

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session with you and Ben.

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I remember sitting at the

table in a Shore Ditch house.

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With some post it notes, as we always do.

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Thinking about where were

you taking the business?

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Do you remember anything from

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Tom Tapper: that?

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I remember that incredibly well,

because I remember you asking me to

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imagine where I would be in five to

ten years weirdly that helped give

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me the courage actually to move out

of London, which was not something I

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anticipated from that conversation.

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And it kind of came at that opportune time

that that conversation, because I think

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at that point, which I think was probably

about five years into the business where

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we had a team of 10 to 12 people, a

more established brand, our services

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had grown a bit, we were making profit.

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But also with that came all of the

headaches of running a business

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that you don't sign up for.

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Dealing with HR issues, finances, all

the stuff that we weren't naturally

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good at, So I think at that time we

were just looking for someone to really

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probe deeper on what we wanted to do,

because we were making decisions like

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hiring new teams of people, or do

we want to start doing branding, web

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development, all of those big questions.

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and I think it was at that point, we

were struggling to find direction.

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because we didn't have a background

in the creative industries.

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We didn't have a family that

had come from that world either.

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So we had, we didn't really have

many people to look up to and

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I think we also didn't want.

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We wanted to try and avoid just copying

and pasting what other agencies had

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done, you know, in the advertising world

I remember that meeting really well.

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it was one of the first times we'd thought

about the company in terms of what we

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wanted as individuals, as opposed to what

our clients want, which had driven a lot

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of our decision making prior to that.

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Jeff Melnyk: I remember very strongly that

quandary of how do we remain the creative

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sparks that we want to be and have to

do a lot of this boring business stuff.

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How do we clear down some of those

things that don't excite us anymore?

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And I think in particular, your

Place then was how do you just get

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to do all the fun creative stuff?

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Tom Tapper: No, you're quite right, but

you feel a bit selfish, you know saying

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that you're like, what do you like doing?

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I love the creative direction work and

Presenting on stage and you're like you

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can do that That's a valuable task and I'm

like, but I then was almost feeling guilty

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of being like, well Then can we bring

someone else in to do those other roles?

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And that was instrumental for us

bringing in Duncan as our managing

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director, who then picked up a lot

of the responsibilities that Ben and

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I were inherently not very good at.

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And that was an internal

promotion, fulfilling what he

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wanted to do in his career.

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And that was like, Unclipping our

wings in terms of where we wanted to

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get the agency to go because we were

able to delegate that responsibility

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and focus on what we were doing best.

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I think that really helped the

company take a step forward.

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And it is fascinating actually, even

now talking to other leaders, it's, it's

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amazing the amount of founders who keep a

vice like grip on things they don't like.

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sometimes that's by necessity because

they can't afford to hire someone.

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more often it's a control thing.

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they feel like, they've got

to do the numbers, Or hiring.

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it's like, no, you don't, you

can probably bring more value

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elsewhere, but sometimes you just

need someone else to tell you that.

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Right.

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Jeff Melnyk: You do, it's that confidence

to go, I can let go of those things,

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and as Emily, our producer, knows that

it's very difficult for me to let go

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of some of those things too, practice

what you preach, not always the case.

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Tom, I also remember vividly

you walking through wheat.

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As part of your vision.

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Tom Tapper: That was exactly when you

said, do you remember that conversation?

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I don't actively remember it every week

or so, but I had a real and this does

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start to sound like that opening scene

of Gladiator, you know, where Russell

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Crowe is wafting the weeds in his hands.

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But it was more, probably Harking,

I grew up in the middle of nowhere,

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and just wanting to have more time in

nature, I think is what I was trying to

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articulate and how I didn't feel that I

could probably get that being in London.

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And we ended up moving to Cambridge,

where, my partner at the time did have

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a job, so it worked out quite well.

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We did since move back to London and

then move out again when I realized

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I didn't want to be in the city.

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it was just like, having that

helping to think forward.

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And then work out what the business

would need to do to enable that.

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the fact I don't need to be chained

to a desk and all of that sort

213

of stuff was really valuable.

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Jeff Melnyk: And I think that that notion

of how do you go inside to think about

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what it is that you most want and those

things that it's, it's funny how I can

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remember that and you can remember it.

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Like there's something very real

about that kind of visioning where

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you just go, that's the thing I

want in my life, or that's where

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it is That we're going, right?

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Tom Tapper: I remember that moment

really distinctly because I think

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that was one of the first times that.

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I had shared, something quite

subconscious and quite innate, and I

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hadn't really articulated it before,

and also articulated it in front of my

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business partner, Ben, which was that

I was craving a closer connection to

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nature, that meant I would probably

not Be living in London anymore.

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I'd need to kind of move out.

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And it's quite one of those

like vulnerable moments.

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Cause normally when you're working

in a business, all your conversations

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with your founders and business,

you were more like, how are we going

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to drive this business forward?

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it felt quite self indulgent

to say, actually, I think for

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me to be happy, I have this.

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Pull back towards nature

that I need to fulfill.

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Otherwise I'm not going to

be the best leader I can be.

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And I think that was the first

time they articulated it.

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And then it started to make

me think, well, actually

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that's absolutely achievable.

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I can commute in.

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It's not going to change things

fundamentally, but it's interesting how,

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when you're provoked with those questions.

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There's something in the subconscious

that has been there for a while, whether

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it is a vision of walking through a wheat

field like Russell Crowe, or whether

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it's other things, but it's funny just

having those prompts, I think really

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can elicit something a lot deeper.

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Jeff Melnyk: So what has changed over

the last 10 years for Nice and Serious?

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is it the market that's changed?

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Is it sustainability and

communications that have changed?

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Obviously, we didn't have TikTok.

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Talk back then.

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I'm curious how that's made an impact for

you all, but what's been the biggest shift

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in the last 10 years for you as business?

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Tom Tapper: Yeah, there's been I

think over the last 10 years, so much

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has shifted, both within nice and

serious and in the outside world.

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I think as a business, I mean,

interestingly, the size of our

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company, the number of 10 years

hasn't dramatically changed.

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I mean, we probably.

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Doubled, which sounds quite a lot, but

over 10 years, that's not really that

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much, I think more importantly, and

I think this journey started with our

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conversations, 10 years ago when we were

delving into why we exist and, what unites

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us, we made a big transition from talking

about what we do as a business, which

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was creative services, which was quite

limiting and pigeonholed us into certain

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deliverables to why we exist and what

we're looking to achieve as an agency.

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And I think that dramatically changed our

business because we went from positioning

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ourselves as a creative service Provider

to more of a creative problem solver.

265

that meant we weren't just

contacted when people want to make

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films or an animation or website.

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They were coming to us with much

broader creative challenges.

268

how do I present my NGO to the world?

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What's our brand strategy?

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What's our visual identity?

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How do I campaign to create change?

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And I think people were

really buying into.

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Why nice and serious existed, which

was all about making creative work,

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the world needs and making people care

about the world's most important issues.

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And what we did, our films are,

you know, was sort of irrelevant.

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You know, we could recommend that

and still deliver it, but they were

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buying into something much bigger.

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So I think our relationships with our

clients dramatically changed because

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we went from, One of 10 potential

service providers to a really unique

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business that people were buying into

the creative problems we were solving

281

and our unique kind of positioning.

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So I think as an agency, we've

really evolved in that respect,

283

and really distinguished ourselves.

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But I think, probably the biggest

shift that we've had as an

285

agency is, the question around

growth about who do we work with?

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Advertising agencies, which is

essentially professional services.

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The biggest impact we have isn't

our office waste or emissions It's

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who we work with the clients and the

impact they have, the ideas we elevate

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or the behaviors that we change.

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And I think there was some real

critical moments on that journey.

291

you know, probably 2015, 16, where we were

starting to get approached by really big.

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Big global brands.

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many of whom didn't really align with

our kind of ethics as an agency that we

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hadn't really articulated by that point.

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And we'd started working on

some projects that I would

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argue were blatant greenwashing.

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but I think what was quite

telling was that Ben and I

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were kind of oblivious to it.

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I think we were so blinkered by the

need to get money to feed the beast, to

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pay for overheads and stuff like that.

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you know, you're just like,

Oh, I don't really care.

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Oh, surely what they're doing is great.

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Let's just jump on this and work on it.

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And I think there was a real moment

where this sort of team rebelled a

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bit because there was this sort of

unspoken contract that when you come

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to work for nice and serious, it's

only on high impact clients and stuff.

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And then we basically get called

out for greenwashing by the team.

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And, you know, your immediate

reaction is, Go fuck yourself guys.

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I'm paying your salaries.

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But once you've moved past that,

you're then like, actually, they've

311

got a point here, you know, the way

we make decisions is basically Ben

312

and Tom saying, would I be embarrassed

about telling my friends down the pub

313

that we're working with his client?

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But actually, you know, we had all

these other pressures on us that

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really were kind of, making it hard

to make a more objective, decision.

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So that was the moment where we took the

team away for a leadership retreat and

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we ended up sort of co creating this idea

that we called the moral compass, where

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we, we realized that every brief we work

on should be democratically voted on by

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the team to Diffuse responsibility and

give everyone a voice what I consider

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moral or in line with our purpose, someone

else might totally disagree because they,

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they disagree with the, social ethics of

a business, not the environmental ethics.

322

I think that was a real step forward

for us in terms of codifying our

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purpose in our business operations.

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And I think that enabled us to Grow

with more certainty that we were doing

325

the right thing and to give everyone

a sense of, agency in that process.

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I would say that's the biggest symbolic

structural change that's happened in the

327

business and has been guiding us, since,

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Jeff Melnyk: But has that come at a cost?

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have you turned down some things that you

might have felt were morally, ethically

330

aligned and meant that money doesn't

go into the nice and serious coffers?

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Tom Tapper: Absolutely.

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And I think our finance director once

told me Tom, you're kind of like an

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unintentional not for profit with this

moral compass thing you've created.

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And yeah, absolutely.

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There is a cost to it.

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we probably reject about four briefs

a year From the moral compass.

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You know, I'm talking about most of

those are like some of the world's

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biggest and most lucrative companies

the sort of accounts that the

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agencies thrive on and grow on, right?

340

So it's a big commercial decision to say

no to those contracts, But for me, you

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can always look at these things in the

negative, saying no to X amount of money

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or closing a door on that opportunity.

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But because any business exists

with the limited amount of resource

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of time of money, that frees up

that time to open another door.

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more suited to your individual agency.

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you're saying no to short term cash,

but often you're saying yes to a

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more appropriate opportunity, which

creates a more virtuous circle.

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Not like, you know, we've all

been there in the agency world.

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You say yes to the clients

that aren't quite right.

350

even though it's lucrative, They own you

for three months and it exhausts everyone.

351

you're adding to your portfolio with

projects you don't want to be doing.

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there's a short time cost, but it's

a long term concentration of your

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brand as opposed to diluting it,

even though you might grow quicker.

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If that makes sense.

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that's the way I'm justifying it to myself

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Jeff Melnyk: is it more about growth

of impact than it is about growth

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of size or growth of, I mean, it's

not, surely it's not share of market.

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You're not one of those that are

like, how are we taking more of the

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UK creative agency slice of the pie?

360

do you talk more about growth

of impact as a business?

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Tom Tapper: it's actually

quite a good question.

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We've just been doing our business

strategy for the next five years.

363

And it's really hard to avoid using

financial metrics to define growth.

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It's really hard because all of the

advice out there, every business guru or

365

whatever you listen to, it's all about.

366

Revenue based growth.

367

And it's really hard to

separate yourself from that.

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And, you know, you know, we've over

the last five years, we've pretty much

369

stated a similar revenue and team size.

370

And sometimes there's a bit of me that

thinks like, maybe we're not doing that

371

well, cause we haven't financially grown.

372

it's really hard to detangle yourself

from that as a leader and not look

373

outside and see an agency doubling

in head size or something like that,

374

and you being like, Oh my God, they

must be really smashing it right now.

375

we have to keep an eye on the financials,

but profit comes as a byproduct of doing

376

something purposeful, if you try and chase

money and financial metrics and growth,

377

it ends up taking you down different

paths that you don't want to be on.

378

I think if you can.

379

focus on one thing, you do best creating

impact driven, creative work, money will

380

come as a result of that in setting up our

new financial dashboard that we've been

381

doing as part of the business, we've made

sure we're including metrics like team

382

happiness scores, which we monitor, we're.

383

Recording the moral compass

score the percentage of charities

384

versus brands, things like that.

385

So trying to create other metrics which

can, which can monitor our success.

386

because, you know, if the team's

hitting a 20 percent profit

387

target, but everyone's at like the

lowest happiness of, of success.

388

Four years and then something's

not quite working there.

389

So, you know, I suppose it's

not, not, not rejecting finance.

390

Cause that that's irresponsible, but

it's about bringing in other metrics

391

and trying to make those a center point.

392

And actually one of our biggest challenges

is how do we measure creative impact?

393

we talk about making creative

work the world needs, but it's

394

sometimes really hard because one

project could be a branding project,

395

another could be a web project.

396

how do you measure that without

sinking yourself in metrics?

397

that's one of the challenges we're

working through at the moment can we

398

create a single metric or a way of

measuring it that's practical for a

399

small business just to keep us guided?

400

Otherwise, we're using all these

other proxies like team happiness

401

and the moral compass score.

402

Whereas actually what really

drives us is making great

403

creative work that has an impact.

404

that's definitely an ongoing process

405

Jeff Melnyk: I remember at

Futera, we had that same quandary.

406

Laurie is now working

on the impact metric.

407

measuring financial performance

is easy because we've had

408

those numbers for a long time.

409

this is something.

410

all leaders need to get behind because it

has to be about the impact you're making

411

outside of your business, in the case of

any creative act, it's not just we made

412

a thing it's what did that thing do and

how is that in line with our purpose?

413

Absolutely.

414

Well, if you let me know how you

get on with that impact metric, if

415

it's any good, I'd love to see it.

416

No pressure, Laurie.

417

and what about you personally as a leader?

418

how do you think you've

419

Tom Tapper: I think personally as

a leader, in the context of your

420

earlier questions around coming into

this industry quite young, I think

421

there's always been an element of

imposter syndrome because I haven't.

422

Had agency experience prior to

setting up nice and serious.

423

I'm still relatively young compared

to a lot of my peers as well.

424

So I think there's always been that

element of feeling like I'm faking it

425

a bit, or when there's a real crunch

decision, not trusting my own gut

426

instinct or judgment because I'm like,

well, I haven't done this before.

427

I'm a bit too young or I

didn't work in agencies.

428

So there's always been an

element of doubt over the years.

429

I feel like over the.

430

Past, three or five years I've become

more comfortable with the idea that

431

so many people don't know what they're

doing, even though they present to the

432

outside world, they do, and I think

to have more courage of my own sense

433

of conviction as well with, You know,

just making decisions because they feel

434

right to me, not because I'm trying to

impress someone else or do the thing

435

that another business has done that I've

seen, I think I've become increasingly

436

more comfortable with that also thinking,

the business has been, stagnating, but

437

slowly growing and just feel comfortable

that that's a marker of success.

438

Not necessarily a, you know, cause

I'm not 10 X growth or whatever it is.

439

Like, so I think I've just calmed

down a bit in that respect.

440

try to play a bit more of a long game

and, learn from past mistakes, we

441

tried to mimic other agencies in what

growth looks like, we set up a, New

442

York office in 2016, which, could have

been a really good strategic move, but,

443

we were, a little bit inexperienced.

444

We didn't have the financial

chops to enable that.

445

although it did quite well for a

couple of years, ultimately we couldn't

446

afford to sustain it and had to,

you know, Shut things down and come

447

back with a tail between our legs.

448

But I think that was driven more

by exterior motivations of saying,

449

well, what does a growth look like

an agency having a New York office?

450

That's the cool thing that

successful agencies do.

451

Right.

452

I don't think I would make

the same decision today.

453

I think I would have reflected and say,

well, can we service the clients abroad?

454

Yes, we can.

455

It's cheaper to run things in

London at this point in time.

456

So I, you know, I think.

457

I've changed a lot in a leader in

that respect, learning from those

458

mistakes and being a little bit

more patient, do you think the

459

imposter syndrome will ever go away?

460

Probably not.

461

I think you just live with it.

462

It's that little thing on your shoulder.

463

Like there's always a new client

or a new pitch, which is slightly

464

out of your comfort zone.

465

And then you feel it again and you're

like, well, they see through me.

466

Well, they realized.

467

And it's like, how come Tom,

you've been doing it for 16 years

468

now, like, you know your shit.

469

But yeah, I just don't know.

470

But I think you just learn

to live with it, don't you?

471

I think you do.

472

Jeff Melnyk: You have

to make friends with it.

473

And you've got to be able to

tell it to go in the corner and

474

not be the voice in your head.

475

But it doesn't really go away.

476

And I think if we think it

goes away, then it doesn't.

477

It has a lot more power over it.

478

to hear you say we've been doing this

for 16 years, you've been doing it

479

for four times longer than most people

who set up a creative agency, right?

480

Who just can't make it through

those first five years.

481

therefore, You actually are the daddy now.

482

I'm going to put that on my

LinkedIn profile, by the way.

483

That creative daddy.

484

Cause like, being able to think like,

there was a time when me and Ben

485

walked into the Futera offices and

we were trying to pitch our wares and

486

it was the mid noughties we didn't

know what we were doing, but now you

487

do, but that voice that's there is

still the, Two twinks walking in the

488

Tom Tapper: office.

489

Two twinks.

490

You're so right, but I feel like it's,

it's I suppose like the nature of how

491

change happens because it all happens

so slowly, so glacial that you never

492

have a chance to take a step back.

493

And it's only when someone else

comments, like I was at an ethical agency

494

summit the other day talking and said,

Someone before me was like, Oh yeah,

495

there's interesting people in the room.

496

I mean, there's like the, the OG of

this space, Tom Taffer, like he's

497

referring to me like a pensioner.

498

And I was like, Oh my fucking God,

am I now the granddaddy of this?

499

you can only see that from the outside

because things just change so slowly.

500

It's, you're the same person

that wakes up every morning

501

I need to get your office

502

Jeff Melnyk: is full of Gen Z

folks that you've got to relate to.

503

Um, okay.

504

Well, uh, on that.

505

On that notion of you as a leader,

about five or six years ago, we did

506

some research all around the world to

try to uncover what are the qualities

507

of human centered leadership that is

going to drive 21st century business.

508

we put together our eight qualities

that we found were very common and

509

consistent throughout business.

510

All the different leaders

that we interviewed.

511

and it was leaders all around the world.

512

So we're holding this notion

that this is a toolkit of what

513

leaders are going to need to take

us into the next couple decades.

514

Out of those eight qualities, Tom, what

would you say has been your strength?

515

the one quality that you

tend to come back to.

516

Tom Tapper: it's a really good question.

517

seeing these again, I feel like there

have been moments When I've needed to

518

lean on one or two of the others as, as

the business evolves, as our external

519

context changes, you think, Oh yeah,

this is the moment I've really needed

520

to lean on vulnerability, when talking

to the team or empathy, being a creative

521

agency, I feel like I should say

creativity, but I feel like in a weird

522

way, like the one that, stood out for

me most is probably conviction I think

523

when we've had those really testing

moments, like, you know, the, the, the

524

one that really stood out to me was where

we were in the middle of the pandemic,

525

it was that first summer where, you

know, every, no one knew what was going

526

on, a big part of our business relied

on filming when you couldn't travel.

527

we were just like, Oh my

God, what is going to happen?

528

We were hemorrhaging money.

529

We don't have big reserves we had about

eight people on furlough and then Two

530

briefs land in our inbox, one from I

think the second biggest company in

531

the world And the third was the third

biggest company in the world, right?

532

Right.

533

Okay.

534

That's the context Both

go into the moral compass.

535

I think you know what happens, right?

536

Yes.

537

Both fail.

538

part of me is like, who's voting on this?

539

Obviously the moral compass is there

for our own moral sense of direction.

540

Has anyone got any intelligence here?

541

If you want your jobs to exist.

542

And we had this moment where

both of these things fail.

543

And I was like, Oh my God.

544

what do I do?

545

we'd never overridden

the moral compass before.

546

It was created to,

decide who we work with.

547

And we had this big pride thing

that was like, we honor the votes.

548

But then we had like

seven people on furlough.

549

So we're using government subsidies.

550

And then there's this

option to say no to work.

551

so I called the leadership team

together and I was like, guys,

552

we need to make a call on this.

553

do we need to create a

backdoor to the moral compass?

554

is there an autocratic regime and a coup

555

Jeff Melnyk: about to take

over to hell with democracy?

556

Tom Tapper: Yeah, no, exactly.

557

Sometimes it calls for a tyrant to be

leading your so called ethical business.

558

And I was of the sense, I was

like, we need to override this.

559

Cause I was like, I think it's

irresponsible for us to be, taking money.

560

But, but weirdly, like the team

sort of like, Talk to me around.

561

And they were like, you know,

why did we set up this business?

562

And, we reconnected to our

why our founding purpose.

563

And then we were just like,

it's a slippery slope.

564

You open that door.

565

It puts us on a trajectory.

566

If we're going to get through this,

we need to hold our heads up high.

567

we decided to say no to both of these,

businesses and that was terrifying

568

because in two weeks time, I genuinely

could be terminating the contract

569

of seven people whether it's luck

or fate or whatever, within two

570

weeks we received four other briefs.

571

We managed to convert them and then

by the end of September we'd hired

572

everyone back I'm so glad that we had the

courage of our conviction to honor the

573

results of the moral compass therefore

we didn't have to say We use this moral

574

compass, but occasionally if there's a

global pandemic or we're in financial

575

hard times, we'll work with anyone

576

So I think that was a real test, but i'm

glad we stuck by it I'm kind of believe,

577

you make your own luck in those instances.

578

Like yes.

579

all of the stuff we would've been

doing 12 years beforehand led to

580

those briefs that landed on our desk

just at the right time and saved us.

581

for me, it's probably a sense of

conviction that I've, I've developed

582

over the ideas a, a sense of what I

think's right or wrong, even if that.

583

Is financial, has a financial

impact on the outcome.

584

it's a sense of conviction, I think.

585

Jeff Melnyk: And I think the interesting

one with conviction, what we say

586

with that one is the thing that

you need to unlearn is self doubt.

587

you have to trust yourself.

588

how do you trust that journey you've

been on for previous decade that is

589

gonna allow those other doors to open.

590

You're not starting from nothing.

591

So there's gotta be some fruits of all

of that that are gonna come through.

592

I think it's really hard

to hold the line, isn't it?

593

It sounds like you found that strength.

594

Tom Tapper: It does feel like it.

595

It's that scene in Game of

Thrones with Holdor sort of

596

holding back the White Walkers.

597

It feels like that at times.

598

Like the doubt just getting everywhere.

599

Jeff Melnyk: what's been the

quality that you think has been

600

the biggest stretch for you?

601

Tom Tapper: I was thinking about

the kind of stretch qualities,

602

toying between empathy and patience.

603

Empathy in the respect that as a leader,

you have to push back the desire to try

604

and make everyone like you, you're sort

of like, why don't you think like this?

605

Why don't you do like that?

606

if they did they would be you

and running their own agency.

607

when you're.

608

Under pressure to deliver work,

bring in revenue, make ends meet.

609

It can dehumanize you a bit.

610

it's, important to find that empathy,

to make you a more human leader.

611

and that's a constant battle I find

because that, the 'cause of the

612

pressures of running a business,

it, it does dehumanizes you a bit.

613

So there's a few things I'll try and do

to reconnect to that, I think the one

614

that I struggle most with is patience.

615

often founders have a shared quality of

impatience otherwise we might've waited to

616

get a job versus creating one ourselves.

617

So I think.

618

it's both a strength and a weakness,

but it's probably the thing I struggle

619

with most where something will happen

or I'll get a new idea and I just

620

want to make it happen tomorrow.

621

And that's always been a challenge

for me to take a step back, to allow

622

things to, to, to happen to the, for

the business to evolve, to people,

623

to change for things like that.

624

it's a constant reminder of where.

625

I want the company to go and

but where is the market and

626

where is our team right now?

627

Because I think you can often as

founders stretch too far get attracted

628

to the new shiny thing And then break

what you've already got so I think

629

patience I would choose of those two,

as the greatest stretch for me, I think

630

Jeff Melnyk: I think you're

not alone on choosing that one,

631

especially from the founder space.

632

being two or three or four steps ahead of

the market or the team or yourself, right?

633

Like, I want to be over there, right?

634

But it's quite hard to pull

everybody that fast towards

635

where it is that you want to go.

636

it can lead to a lot of impatience.

637

at the same time, if we didn't

have impatient founders who didn't

638

want to solve the big problems

of the world, we wouldn't have

639

so much ingenuity and innovation.

640

So it is a tricky one.

641

But Tom, even in your story of

holding the line with conviction

642

around the moral compass, you worked

with what you had there, right?

643

maybe if you go back to that, the

point where those two big briefs came

644

in and everybody voted them down,

did you have a sense of impatience?

645

was the feeling that you had there

impatience or just frustration?

646

Tom Tapper: Yeah, probably frustration.

647

It was probably like, why doesn't the

team understand Why can't the team

648

connect the vulnerability of their

own job with needing to win new work?

649

speaking to that empathy point.

650

I was like, why do you

guys think like this?

651

Surely you understand how much

of a risk we're in right now.

652

So, yeah, that was all kinds

653

Jeff Melnyk: Okay.

654

So what's the next 10 years going

to look like for Nice and Serious?

655

Tom Tapper: think the next 10 years

of the agency, I'm careful of being

656

too rigid with the projections

about, you know, what services,

657

what clients will be working with.

658

I'd like to adapt what we

do or evolve what we do.

659

With where creativity is most needed.

660

so where there might be a greater use for

our services that might be in, helping

661

leaders speak to broader audiences about

climate action in new or interesting ways.

662

it might be experimenting with new

techniques to engage audiences,

663

to fire up their imagination to

take action and things like that.

664

So I, Think the agency will grow in

a traditional sense, because there's

665

never been such a need for creativity

to create the change we want to

666

see, I hope that we'll grow in that

patient way, where we're responding

667

to what our clients want and what

we can deliver in an authentic way.

668

not that kind of artificial growth,

that kind of steroid growth,

669

where you get a big injection of.

670

Private equity and grow teams

really quickly and then often

671

dilute what you stand for.

672

so I'm really excited.

673

I don't think it's going to look crazy

different in 10 years I think it will

674

look like a concentrated version of

where we're are today, where we've got.

675

Some brilliant, passionate

sort of, experts in our space.

676

and a really broad network of associates

and doers inside the agency, we're not

677

going to go into Bitcoin, or web 3.

678

0, what about AI?

679

Yeah.

680

AI, everything.

681

no, I don't see that playing a fundamental

role in how our agency operates.

682

we'll slowly, organically evolve.

683

I still see myself being very

much connected to the business.

684

I have no plans to exit or

sell it's what I love doing.

685

I hope in 10 years.

686

We can look back at some of the

campaigns and work we've done and feel

687

like we were part of the vanguard in

that, that, that sustainable transition

688

and to, to have worked with some of

the most amazing, you know, people,

689

leaders, charities, businesses, and,

and to have given like a, some creative

690

excitement around what they're doing.

691

Jeff Melnyk: if you could go back 10

years and give former Tom, Some advice.

692

What would it be

693

Tom Tapper: if I had to go back 10 years?

694

So it's like 2014 I feel like

that was peak Britain Britain

695

was still cool in 2014 before

696

Yeah,

697

I think I would have, you know, I

probably would have said I would have

698

just been like, own the fucking stage.

699

Like, sometimes I'm so apologetic

or self doubty probably because of

700

imposter syndrome that I would have

these ideas, but not want to write

701

about them or, you know, you know,

you know, want to be talking about

702

it, pushing clients, clients harder.

703

But I was always a bit like,

Oh no, quietly, quietly do

704

the work in the background and

then talk about it another day.

705

Whereas I feel like I should have been

more vocal in the past about my own

706

convictions, about what I believe.

707

of the problems of our creative

industry and also the techniques

708

businesses and brands should be using

to communicate sustainability better.

709

I think I was always a

bit mute in that respect.

710

I think I've only really found

my voice in the last two or three

711

years with a bit more confidence.

712

So, so yeah, I would have, Yeah.

713

Own the stage.

714

I think I would have probably told myself.

715

Jeff Melnyk: Who are we to have a voice

716

Tom Tapper: I think it

was partly humility.

717

you know, it was partly, I'd never written

a book or I wasn't quite old enough to

718

be considered a keynote speaker, but

wasn't young enough to be Greta Thunberg.

719

So I was like, what

space do I occupy here?

720

maybe a bit too bashful or humble

to put myself forward for speaking

721

opportunities I honed my craft a little

bit more, but, I think I should have

722

been more vocal during those years.

723

Jeff Melnyk: Well, you definitely

have a voice now, Tom, and you guys

724

have inspired us through the decade.

725

thank you so much for doing what you do.

726

if you don't follow Tom on LinkedIn,

Tom is the only person I love to

727

follow on LinkedIn because he does

have a voice and something good to

728

say, always with great humor and joy.

729

thank you for lighting up that dark

corner of the web, very excited to see

730

where you guys go in the next decade.

731

it's been an honor and a pleasure, not

only to have you on the podcast, but

732

to have worked with you all this time.

733

Tom Tapper: Thank you so much, Jeff.

734

thank you for all your help

and support over the years.

735

Jeff Melnyk: Well done.

736

Thanks for listening, everyone.

737

You can find out more about Tom and the

Nice and Serious team at niceandserious.

738

com.

739

This special edition of our podcast will

continue with a featured leader from

740

our community sharing their story in

a new episode coming every other week.

741

Reimagining work from within is available

wherever you listen to podcasts.