Professor Mark Reed is an academic, author, podcaster, consultant, trainer, policy advisor among his many roles. His research area is on ecosystem markets and environmental governance, and he studies how researchers can generate and share their knowledge so they can change the world. Reflecting both of these strands, he is both an academic, co-directing a research Centre at Scotland’s Rural College, and he is the founder of Fast Track Impact, a training and coaching company, and he hosts The Fast Track Impact podcast. He also has a host of other roles you can read about on his web page. 

We discuss the concept of 'impact' in academia, the challenges of mental health and burnout amongst academics, and the importance of self-compassion, self-reflection and self-care. Driven by a desire to make a difference, Mark intertwines his academic inquiries with a commitment to environmental stewardship and decolonizing research. He also talks about his commitment to empowering colleagues, managing postdocs efficiently, and his take on the biases and limitations within the academic system.

Overview

00:05 Introduction

00:30 Meet Professor Mark Reed: A Multi-faceted Academic

01:18 The Importance of Self-Reflection in Academia

01:56 Mark's Personal Struggles and the Importance of Self-Compassion

02:07 The Role of Purpose and Values in Mark's Work

02:56 Mark's Journey as an Academic and Policy Advisor

07:23 The Challenges and Biases in the Academic System

08:32 Building a Compassionate Culture in Academia

11:33 Decolonizing Research and Influencing Policy

27:11 The Role of Empathy and Love in Research

32:13 The Importance of Self-Care and Work-Life Balance in Academia

48:05 Creating a Purposeful Workplace and Leading from the Bottom Up

51:24 Conclusion: The Impact of Love and Empathy in Academia

52:56 End

Listen here for a version to follow the transcript linked directly to the audio

Related Links

Mark's research web page & Fast Track Impact page

Mark’s books: https://www.fasttrackimpact.com/books#impact-culture

• The Research Impact Handbook  2nd Ed 2018
• The Productive Researcher 2017
• Impact Culture 2022 

Mark’s ‘The Fast Track Impact’ podcast series

Mark Reed & Hanna Rudman, Re-thinking research impact: voice, context and power at the interface of science, policy and practice, 18, Sustainability Science, 967-981, 2023.

Richard Watermeyer's 2019 book: Competitive Accountability in Academic Life: The Struggle for Social Impact and Public Legitimacy

Dr Kristin Neff, Uni of Austen Texas on self compassion

Prof Michelle Pinard, Uni of Aberdeen 

This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:

Chartable - https://chartable.com/privacy

Geri: 00:00:05

Welcome to Changing Academic Life.

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: 00:00:08

I'm Geraldine Fitzpatrick, and this is

a podcast series where academics and

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: 00:00:12

others share their stories, provide

ideas, and provoke discussions about what

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: 00:00:17

we can do individually and collectively

to change academic life for the better.

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.

Today, I bring you a conversation with Professor Mark Reed.

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Mark's an academic, an author, a

podcaster consultant trainer policy

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advisor, amongst his many roles.

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And he's someone who's really driven

by wanting to make a difference.

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His research is on ecosystem markets

and environmental governance.

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And he also studies how researchers

can generate and share their

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knowledge for more impact.

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: 00:00:59

Reflecting both of these strands.

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He's an academic, co-directing a research

center at Scotland's rural college.

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And he is the founder of a

company called fast track impact.

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And as part of this hosts the

fast track impact podcast series.

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Given the recent discussions

around burnout, I thought

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it would be particularly

interesting to talk with mark.

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Because if you listen to

his podcast, you'll know him

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as an amazingly reflective,

thoughtful and principled person.

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Who brings his whole self and

shares very honestly and openly.

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In that same vein, we discuss here some

of the issues around academic research,

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like the complex nature of research and

biases within the system and ways that

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we might sort of decolonize research.

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And more particularly for

our recent discussions.

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: 00:01:56

He also shares his own personal struggles

and challenges around mental health.

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And the importance of self

compassion and being self-reflective.

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: 00:02:07

And you'll see a really strong red thread

about how he's really clear about his

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purpose and values and the importance of

that for guiding all of his decisions.

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I found it a really inspiring and honest

demonstration of courage and curiosity

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: 00:02:25

and the, and the quest for impact.

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: 00:02:27

Enjoy listening to this

conversation with Mark Reed.

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Mark, thanks for joining me.

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I'm really so excited to be talking to

you because I've been a huge fan of your

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work and what you put out in the world.

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Before we get to some of that, how

would you want to introduce yourself?

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Because it's rich and

complex and multifaceted.

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Mark: Um, yeah, so I guess I have a

few different hats that I can put on.

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Um, and I guess for this, it's

primarily the role that I play through

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FastTrackImpact, which is a company I set

up to generate impact from my research

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on impact, um, trying to understand how

it is that we as researchers can use our

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work to make a difference in the world,

um, and so through fast track impact,

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I do training, create free resources

and, uh, and do my best to enable busy

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academics to use their time as wisely as

possible to make as much of a difference

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as they can with the time that they have.

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I am also a full time academic.

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I'm a professor of rural,

rural entrepreneurship and co

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director of a research centre

at Scotland's Rural College.

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I've got visiting chairs in, in three

other universities and a range of

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other roles with policy organisations.

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where I am trying to achieve impact

from my environmental research.

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So I have this kind of dual track of

the environmental research where I'm

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trying to make a difference in one

domain, applying what I'm learning from

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my research on impact to try and make

more of a difference in my own work,

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but also then bringing that experience

and that kind of lived experience of

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what actually works in practice back

into my research and training on impact.

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Geri: It's, it's, that's very meta.

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Mark: Yeah, it's nice.

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The two just, yeah, they

work really nicely together.

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And also my PhD, wanting

to make a difference and

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failing to make a difference.

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And then just like any curious

researcher wondering, yeah, how

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did I get this so badly wrong?

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What can I do differently

and generalize from there?

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Geri: And that's what comes across so

much in all your work that I don't know

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stepping into the full humanity of.

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Who you are as Mark Reed, like not who

you, you know, not who you are as the

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academic in some generic identity sense,

but I think the richness and the value

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comes from that, I don't know, just

owning all of the different complexities

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and the things not working out.

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And more than that, the

ability to reflect on it.

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Were you always a very reflective person?

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Mark: Yeah, I don't know.

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I don't think any more

than any other researcher.

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I've yet to meet a researcher who is

not driven in some sense by a sense

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of curiosity, but, um, I think, um, As

I've gone on through my career, I've had

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more courage and seen the difference it

can make to talk about the challenges.

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I think that that's also

given me some meaning.

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I've had some fairly major challenges

that I've had to wade through to get

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where I am, just to do what I'm doing.

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And, um, and I think being able to

to reflect on that and and talk about

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that and empower others has helped

me to find some meaning in that to

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say well yeah it wasn't for nothing

actually if others can take something

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from that experience and And I think

it's, it's quite rare that people in

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kind of more senior roles, like myself,

talk about these kinds of challenges.

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And the result is that you look at

all of these people who are further

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ahead than you in your career, and it

just seems completely unattainable.

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If only I had all of the privileges

that someone like Mark has, and I

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have a lot of privileges as A white,

heterosexual male with English as my

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first language, all of the rest of it.

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And I think what I've tried to communicate

is that, yeah, for all of that privilege,

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I've had hidden struggles with mental

health in particular that have been

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debilitating, that have required

me to make major adaptations to my

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work, sacrifices, and whatever it is.

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That, that you might be facing.

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My, my hope is that, that I can give

people a, a bit of hope that yeah, it's

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possible to, to get through Mm-Hmm.

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Um, and to, and to keep going, uh, and,

um, and hopefully give a few people

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a bit of sustenance on the way if,

if they've found things hard as well.

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And yeah, some of it's internal,

but a lot of it is external.

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We, we are working in a broken

system that makes things incredibly

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hard, uh, especially if you.

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find your life at the intersection

of a whole load of disadvantages, um,

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uh, and, uh, on the, the wrong end of,

uh, of all of the, the institutional

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biases and privileges that are handed

out to certain types of, of, of people.

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It's an incredibly hard place

to, to work in and thrive.

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Rejection just baked into,

to, to the system of peer

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review and all the rest of it.

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So, so yeah, I, I, I.

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It's hard, but it's good.

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And I think it's just that

reality that I want to paint

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through the work that I'm doing.

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Geri: You're talking

about personal issues.

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And that is just such a salient reminder

about, don't believe what we see, that

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all of us are human in different ways.

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And probably everyone we're working

with has different sorts of issues.

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You talk a lot about building

a compassionate culture.

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Can you say a little bit more about that

in terms of how we might enable space

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for one another to, uh, on the surface

seem like we're okay, but actually not be

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Mark: one of the exercises I do in,

uh, in a couple of my, my trainings is.

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To get people to think about and discuss

how they deal with challenges around

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imposter syndrome, perfectionism,

people pleasing, things like that.

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To just normalise the fact that,

oh, we all struggle with at least

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one of these, at least from time to

time, and many of us struggle with

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multiple of these, a lot of the time.

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And for a lot of people

just opening that up.

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having some discussion about that.

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The biggest eye opener is the

fact that we're not alone in this.

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And, um, and surprisingly, actually,

it's, it's often new professors who, uh,

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who I find struggle most with imposter

syndrome because imposter syndrome

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ultimately is about a gap between how you

see yourself and how the world sees you.

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And so it is often, uh, once we reach

those milestones that we've been striving

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for and thought, yes, if I can just

get to that point, then I'll feel like

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I'm worth it, that I deserve this.

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That all of a sudden that gulf opens up

again, um, and, and I think especially,

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I think it's particularly powerful when

more senior colleagues open up about these

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kind of struggles and how they've dealt

with them, uh, because, uh, ultimately

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yes, we come back and reflect on this.

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What I encourage people to do is

to realize that they've taken the

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first step towards self compassion.

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And Kristin Neff talks about this

from University of Austin, Texas.

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Um, that actually the first step towards

self compassion is realizing that you

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are not alone, realizing that actually

part of the human experience to suffer

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and actually now I'm not beating myself

up and saying I shouldn't feel like this,

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actually this is normal and this is okay.

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And that place of self acceptance

and self compassion is actually,

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I would suggest, the foundation

for compassion towards others.

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And so, for me doing this in a group

setting, whether that's in a training

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with me, in a research group setting,

just talking openly about these things.

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And it can be in a really positive

way about how you tackle, how you

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deal with, how you've overcome.

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It doesn't have to be overly

vulnerable if you don't want it to be.

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But that can just normalise the fact that,

yeah, we all struggle with these things.

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We all give ourselves self compassion,

and we start to see our colleagues

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with more humanity, understanding that,

yeah, perhaps you're having a hard day.

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Perhaps I can see now, based on what you

said, that that's maybe what's going on.

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Maybe I can help build you

up when everything else

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seems to be tearing you down.

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Mm,

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Geri: and with the biases that you

talked about in the system, do you

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want to unpack that a little bit more?

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I mean, you mentioned the high rate

of rejection that we know is also tied

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up with our whole, um, perfectionism

and performance metrics and how we

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beat ourself up often, but how do

you see or experience the biases

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and the brokenness of the system?

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Mark: Um, so I guess at one end of the

spectrum is the insecurity of tenure

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that many of us face, a job that you have

trained for years and years and invested.

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Whether it's your own money or just lost,

lost earnings in terms of your education,

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you've invested huge amounts in and,

uh, and then you've got, uh, an average

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kind of wage you might be able to get.

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It's not terrible, but it's not

great, uh, given the number of

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years that you've invested in that.

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Um, and one, two year, three year

contracts, and enrolling from one contract

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to the next, and a publish or perish

culture in which, yeah, if, if I'm not

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lucky with, with my bosses and, and

I end up not getting first authorship

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opportunities, not getting time to

write up PhD, whatever else it might be.

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Uh, then, then yeah, I get stuck

on a hamster wheel of insecurity.

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I can't get a mortgage.

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Uh, and, um, and yeah, that's, it's not a

life in which you want to bring a family

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into, uh, you end up putting your whole,

whole life on, uh, on hold for this, um,

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and, and, and then at the other end of

the spectrum, um, yeah, people like me.

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Who got security of tenure, who, who then,

uh, build networks and get privileged

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opportunities simply because of who I am.

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And, uh, Sir Richard Waterby is, uh,

published on this, but there are others

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who, um, have written about how the, at

least in the UK, the majority of, uh,

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researchers advising government, uh,

are old white men, typically with prof

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in front of their name, people like me.

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Um, and so I have access, uh, to,

to, to policy networks that my

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early career colleagues don't have.

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Um, uh, and, uh, and so my next book

actually is called Influencing Policy,

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and what I've attempted to do in

this is to try and decolonize, uh,

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my approach to influencing policy.

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And to just call out and recognize

for what it is, the fact that a lot

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of research into policy is one elite

influencing another elite, because, like

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it or not, researchers are an elite.

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And here we are in this cozy little

club with a bunch of policy elites

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telling them what they should do.

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When in reality, the decisions that

those policy makers make will have

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far reaching implications for a

whole load of groups who are often

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disadvantaged, vulnerable, marginalized.

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And they don't get a say.

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They're not in those corridors of power.

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And I think that one of our greatest

challenges, but also privileges is in

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thinking about how we can give that power

away, how we can, uh, if not empower and

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bring those people into the corridors

of power, give voice to their opinions

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and not just assume that our policy

colleagues are going to do that for us.

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And of course that then applies

to how we manage our postdocs.

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I've got a postdoc who just started

with me last month and I said to

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her, uh, I expect you as part of the

project management plan that you are

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putting together, I expect you to tell

me all the papers that you're working

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on from your previous positions,

um, and PhD, if they're still there.

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Um, and by the end of this post, uh,

have a plan that makes sure that they

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are all submitted and into the system

as well as all of the stuff that

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we have to do in, in this project.

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Um, and, and doing that mentoring, but

potentially coaching as well if people

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want, um, and trying again to give

away what we have, um, as more senior

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academics, uh, to those who are less

fortunate than ourselves, so that we

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can give them that, that, that leg up.

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Geri: I'm just wondering whether some

people listening may think that there's

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a cost to doing that as a PI, telling

the postdoc, you can work on papers from

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previous roles, and not this one that

you may not be a co author on, or that

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you may bring in other people into the

policy discussion so that you're not

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getting the kudos and brownie points.

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Have you had any.

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Um, do you, do you have

those sorts of discussions or

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debates with yourself at all?

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What are the trade offs, I guess?

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Mark: So if you, if you've got a postdoc

that, uh, that, that you are really

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impressed with, that you really, uh, you

want this postdoc to stay to the end of

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your project and potentially work with

you on future projects, uh, or, uh,

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in an ideal world come into your team

as a lecturer or, uh, uh, et cetera.

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Then, then why wouldn't you want to invest

for the long term and yeah, there's a,

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an initial cost to you and they might

get a lecture, lectureship elsewhere.

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Um, but, uh, but, but one thing's

likely is that they will stay

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to the end of the project.

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And if they do get an offer, they

can't refuse, then they will work as

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responsibly as possible to tie things

off and not leave you in the lurch.

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And my PI colleagues, uh, who take a

much more kind of mercenary approach

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to this, um, regularly have problems

with staff turnover, um, where,

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yeah, uh, why would I work for this

person if I get an offer elsewhere?

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And why would I bother myself to tie

things off someone like this when,

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well, what are they given to me?

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Um, and, and so, so you can argue

that, but when it comes to the policy

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side of things, I think that there's

actually something deeply irresponsible

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and fundamentally wrong with the idea

that I try to get my research impact

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based on my research when policy should

not be based on individual studies.

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And to do so would mean that policy

would flip flop every time a new study

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comes out that says something different

for equally good reasons, because

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they've got a different sample, a

different research design, a different

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model, or whatever it might be.

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And of course, we all know that

the literature is rarely, uh,

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unanimous, uh, in anything.

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And so we should be basing policy advice.

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A, on evidence synthesis, on bodies

of work, not just on our own work,

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but actually in any democracy we

should be trying our best to represent

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different perspectives as well.

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Because the policy process is not this

kind of black and white reductionist

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process of finding a singular truth.

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It is actually a democratic process of

representing different perspectives,

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: 00:18:56

and so we will prevent present an

evidence based perspective, which could

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have multiple lines of evidence that

might suggest doing different things.

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There could be moral lines of argument

that simply say, yes, the evidence might

262

: 00:19:09

say that's okay, but we don't think it is.

263

: 00:19:12

And so I work in the environment

space, I work with academics who

264

: 00:19:15

tell me that there is scientific

consensus that GM foods are safe.

265

: 00:19:21

And that fracking is not dangerous.

266

: 00:19:23

And yet, at least in the UK, things may

be changing a bit since leaving Brexit.

267

: 00:19:30

But we have made decisions that

say, no, because the public

268

: 00:19:33

are not happy about this.

269

: 00:19:35

And that is right.

270

: 00:19:36

And in a world where scientists rule,

well, you don't need democracy anymore.

271

: 00:19:40

That's actually an autocracy.

272

: 00:19:43

Uh, and I think that we need

to actually think really deeply

273

: 00:19:46

about why we're doing what we're

doing if this is about my glory.

274

: 00:19:51

Geri: Again, that takes a lot of self

reflection and Leaving the ego at

275

: 00:19:55

the door and, um, how to negotiate

these competing concerns, data,

276

: 00:20:03

evidence, all sorts of aspects.

277

: 00:20:07

You talked about decolonizing

this process and you talked about,

278

: 00:20:12

um, then bringing in more people.

279

: 00:20:14

Are there other ways in which

you, you think about decolonizing

280

: 00:20:19

that, uh, influencing policy?

281

: 00:20:23

Yeah.

282

: 00:20:24

Mark: So, um, uh, I guess.

283

: 00:20:26

The, the best place to point

you is, is a paper that I

284

: 00:20:30

published, uh, is it last year?

285

: 00:20:32

Uh, called Rethinking No.

286

: 00:20:33

This year actually

Rethinking Research Impact.

287

: 00:20:36

And, um, and this is, is an initial

attempt to decolonize that this

288

: 00:20:43

whole, uh, narrative, um, that, that

we have, uh, around research impact,

289

: 00:20:48

uh, that it is, uh, about us as the

researchers who know what is right

290

: 00:20:52

and what is best, uh, telling everyone

what to do based on the evidence.

291

: 00:20:56

Mm-hmm.

292

: 00:20:58

And it was the most challenging

thing that I've ever written.

293

: 00:21:01

It took six, seven years in total.

294

: 00:21:07

And the majority of my co authors actually

decided that they wanted to withdraw

295

: 00:21:13

and not have their names associated

with the paper because they believed

296

: 00:21:17

that the paper itself was racist.

297

: 00:21:20

And so it was this, this huge internal

battle for me to decide whether

298

: 00:21:24

or not I should self censor this

or whether I should put this out.

299

: 00:21:28

And despite the fact that there is

a fundamental problem here, which

300

: 00:21:32

is that it is the lead author is me.

301

: 00:21:35

And here I am saying that, that

we need to get out of the way.

302

: 00:21:39

and enable those less privileged than us

to lead this process for their own benefit

303

: 00:21:46

when I'm not getting out of the way and

letting someone else write this article.

304

: 00:21:50

And I think that for me that's been

a process of saying well yeah this

305

: 00:21:55

is work in progress for me and I'm

not maybe as far ahead in my thinking

306

: 00:22:01

as some of my co authors are.

307

: 00:22:04

But I know that there's plenty of

people who are still behind me on this

308

: 00:22:07

curve, and by speaking about this, I

can help others to become more self

309

: 00:22:13

reflective and think about this.

310

: 00:22:15

And so how I got around this was

to write a positionality statement

311

: 00:22:19

in a paper, me and my co author.

312

: 00:22:21

Um, to explain, uh, our positionality

in relation to all of these issues,

313

: 00:22:27

um, and, uh, and the intersection

of, uh, of advantage and disadvantage

314

: 00:22:32

that, that we experience.

315

: 00:22:33

And as part of that, I, um, in the

paper made a public apology for

316

: 00:22:38

what I now see as the epistemic

racism of my PhD research.

317

: 00:22:43

Uh, where, uh, I went out to the Kalahari,

um, uh, and, uh, and tested local

318

: 00:22:49

knowledge, um, and validated, um, all

of this incredible local knowledge, uh,

319

: 00:22:54

against Western scientific principles,

uh, as if somehow, uh, I'd proven that

320

: 00:23:00

you were right because, uh, because

Western science says you're right.

321

: 00:23:03

I mean, it's just painfully patronizing.

322

: 00:23:08

Um, but I was blind to it at the time.

323

: 00:23:10

And so, so for me, it's about recognizing

what I've done wrong, um, uh, that

324

: 00:23:15

this is not fixed yet, but, uh,

but, but opening this up to others.

325

: 00:23:20

And in this paper, I talk about three

ways in which we can do this, which is

326

: 00:23:24

paying attention to voice, to contact.

327

: 00:23:28

And to power.

328

: 00:23:31

And I guess it's that final thing that

I've been talking about here, which

329

: 00:23:34

is that positionality and recognizing

my own implicit power and how that

330

: 00:23:39

comes across to others, whether or

not I'm aware of that, working with

331

: 00:23:45

that, so that I can empower others.

332

: 00:23:49

And when I'm working policy or any other

kind of context, it's about understanding

333

: 00:23:53

those power dynamics, so that I'm not

putting people with each other who

334

: 00:23:57

are going to traumatize each other.

335

: 00:24:00

I'm separating groups where necessary

to work with them individually.

336

: 00:24:04

And I'm thinking about how I bring this to

them, rather than expecting them to come

337

: 00:24:11

to me or to the policy process or to reply

to some consultation or whatever else.

338

: 00:24:17

And that requires working with

professional facilitators or building

339

: 00:24:22

those kind of skills yourself and

thinking much more systematically

340

: 00:24:26

about who we are working with.

341

: 00:24:29

And I've got a process I call a 3 I

analysis where I think about people's

342

: 00:24:35

interest, influence and impact.

343

: 00:24:38

Whether that's influences positive or

negative, it's maybe a blocking influence

344

: 00:24:43

as much as it is a facilitating influence

to achieve good things and impact,

345

: 00:24:49

whether that's they're gonna benefit from

this or negatively be impacted by this.

346

: 00:24:55

And, and this is a paper I've got on

the review at the moment, which is

347

: 00:24:58

effectively a, a, a, a more inclusive

approach to stakeholder analysis.

348

: 00:25:03

Uh, and a, another, another paper

under review at the moment where.

349

: 00:25:06

We are suggesting that even the word

stakeholder has colonial roots and

350

: 00:25:12

connotations which are problematic

that we need to root out if we

351

: 00:25:17

are to decolonize our language.

352

: 00:25:20

And so I guess to come back to your

question, for me the starting point is

353

: 00:25:24

that three I analysis, understanding

who it is that is out there in

354

: 00:25:28

a much more inclusive way, but a

deeper way so we can understand those

355

: 00:25:31

power dynamics and work with them.

356

: 00:25:34

Geri: And it sounds like underpinning

all that is another I around

357

: 00:25:37

intention, like your own intention,

um, coming into that work.

358

: 00:25:44

Mark: Tell me more.

359

: 00:25:44

What's, what's sweet?

360

: 00:25:45

What's your thought?

361

: 00:25:45

Geri: Well, it just struck me that,

you know, you can reflect on your

362

: 00:25:49

PhD work very honestly and openly

and cringe now and go, how could

363

: 00:25:54

I've How could I have done that?

364

: 00:25:55

Or how could I have been so arrogant to

bring this sort of, uh, Western lens?

365

: 00:26:01

And at the time, your best intention was

to do good because you talk about making

366

: 00:26:07

a difference , it seems like a red thread

value through everything that you do.

367

: 00:26:13

Um, and so sometimes our intentions,

while they come from a good place, may

368

: 00:26:20

also serve to blind us in some ways

to some of the maybe implicit biases.

369

: 00:26:26

Or just blind spots that we're not

seeing, you know, that, that with

370

: 00:26:31

time and with progression, just with

general society and general awareness,

371

: 00:26:36

I think you sort of go, Oh, goodness.

372

: 00:26:38

I think we can all in some ways,

look back at some of our research

373

: 00:26:41

and go, how did I do that?

374

: 00:26:43

Mark: Yeah.

375

: 00:26:44

Yeah.

376

: 00:26:44

Totally.

377

: 00:26:46

Yeah.

378

: 00:26:46

I come from a missionary family.

379

: 00:26:48

Um, and, um, some of my

ancestors were some of the first

380

: 00:26:52

missionaries in central Africa.

381

: 00:26:54

Um, and, um, I myself, I'm still a church

going Christian, um, that's, that's

382

: 00:27:00

my heritage, and, um, and I can see

the incredible good that my ancestors

383

: 00:27:06

did, that the church has done, and

the incredible evil that it has done.

384

: 00:27:11

And I'm using those two words, um,

because I think there is a, there is a

385

: 00:27:17

spiritual dimension to, to all of this.

386

: 00:27:20

And so for, for me, That word intention

takes me to a spiritual heart, and the

387

: 00:27:28

level of self reflection that we need

to do needs to be at that level, whether

388

: 00:27:32

we have a faith or not, it needs to be,

yeah, we need that external lens on what

389

: 00:27:39

we're doing, rather than our own internal

biases and lenses through which we look

390

: 00:27:44

at that we're completely unaware of.

391

: 00:27:46

to, to challenge us and

to challenge us deeply.

392

: 00:27:51

And I guess the question that I ask just

in my personal life and across everything

393

: 00:27:55

is, is what would, what would love do?

394

: 00:27:58

And for me that's a deeply personal

and a deeply spiritual question.

395

: 00:28:03

But, but asking what would love do in

this situation, uh, can, uh, can help

396

: 00:28:09

clarify intention for me at least.

397

: 00:28:14

Geri: And that's even in your

research, what would love to,

398

: 00:28:19

in sort of, I don't know, even down to

what research questions you frame and

399

: 00:28:25

what you choose to put your time to.

400

: 00:28:30

Mark: Yeah, absolutely.

401

: 00:28:31

Um, it's, it's quite

simple having a single, um,

402

: 00:28:36

overarching principle or value.

403

: 00:28:39

And so that's, that's been

my, my starting point.

404

: 00:28:43

Um, and, um, And, and, and that's

where, yeah, that's, that's why every

405

: 00:28:50

decision that I've made I've tried to

pass it through that and yeah, God knows

406

: 00:28:54

I've gotten it badly wrong multiple

times but of course you know when

407

: 00:28:58

you've gotten it wrong because love

tells you this is not love anymore.

408

: 00:29:02

Um, and um, and yeah, so I, I, I decided

early on that as a 12 year old, I want

409

: 00:29:09

to be missionary like my ancestors.

410

: 00:29:11

I went to university in order to study

tropical environmental science, to

411

: 00:29:15

go back to Africa where my ancestors

were, went to Africa, um, had a bit

412

: 00:29:20

of a revelation, realized, oh, there's

another side to all of this stuff.

413

: 00:29:24

Um, I decided actually the

biggest difference I could make

414

: 00:29:28

is through research and teaching.

415

: 00:29:30

I want to be an academic.

416

: 00:29:31

Um, one of my, my lecturers in my

fourth year, Michelle Pinard at Aberdeen

417

: 00:29:36

University, totally inspired me.

418

: 00:29:38

And I was like, yeah, I want

your job because if I can inspire

419

: 00:29:41

people the way you're inspiring me,

then I can do good in the world.

420

: 00:29:45

And she was doing development

studies type stuff.

421

: 00:29:49

Um, and I figured, you know what, yeah,

maybe I can actually have a far bigger

422

: 00:29:52

impact if I can start to be a bit more

critical about all this stuff, think

423

: 00:29:56

much more deeply about this and find

ways to teach others, um, based on

424

: 00:30:02

what I learn in this, in this area.

425

: 00:30:04

And, and of course that started

off in a very patronizing way.

426

: 00:30:08

Um, but it's kind of grown into, um, uh,

trying to, to not only fix environmental

427

: 00:30:13

problems, but to understand how it is

that we can all do good in the world

428

: 00:30:18

and hence to fast track impact and to

the training and the resources that I

429

: 00:30:22

create, which are all geared towards

whatever you want to do in the world,

430

: 00:30:25

whatever your value system might be, how

can you do, do good with, with your work.

431

: 00:30:34

Geri: That's so powerful.

432

: 00:30:35

I'm just, I'm feeling it in my gut, just

that resonating what would love do and the

433

: 00:30:40

way that that's remains a constant, even

though the practical ways you've realized

434

: 00:30:46

that have shifted and changed with

experience, with insight, with reflection.

435

: 00:30:52

And it's not something we ever think

of, we, like, love and research

436

: 00:30:56

aren't two words, or love and

academia aren't two words we hear

437

: 00:31:00

about, um, together very often.

438

: 00:31:05

Mark: No, but, uh, the word

that I tend to use with my

439

: 00:31:07

academic colleagues is empathy.

440

: 00:31:09

And there's, um, Not a million

miles between the concept of love

441

: 00:31:12

and the concept of, uh, of empathy.

442

: 00:31:14

Mm-Hmm.

443

: 00:31:15

Uh, and, and for me, a

definition of empathy is simply

444

: 00:31:20

compassion that takes action.

445

: 00:31:22

Uh, and, and love is a doing word.

446

: 00:31:25

Uh, love without action is just a

theory and it becomes meaningless.

447

: 00:31:30

And so, uh, for, for me, um, uh,

compassion that takes act action.

448

: 00:31:37

Uh, it might be a definition

for empathy, but it could also

449

: 00:31:40

be a definition for impact.

450

: 00:31:42

Mm

451

: 00:31:43

Geri: hmm.

452

: 00:31:43

Yeah.

453

: 00:31:45

Yeah.

454

: 00:31:46

And your self compassion that you

talked about before is, is love as well.

455

: 00:31:51

Yeah.

456

: 00:31:52

Because if you're not able to bring

your best self in that way or deal with.

457

: 00:32:00

All of the anxieties or the, the

imposter or whatever, you're not going

458

: 00:32:05

to be able to do the, the more outward

facing love that you want to do.

459

: 00:32:10

Yeah.

460

: 00:32:11

Mark: Yeah, exactly.

461

: 00:32:13

Yeah.

462

: 00:32:13

And I've had some, some fairly

challenging things that have happened to

463

: 00:32:18

me and, uh, just contexts within life.

464

: 00:32:22

And, and a lot of that

is, is ongoing sadly.

465

: 00:32:26

And I think I've, I've, I've worked

out that actually just to, to survive

466

: 00:32:30

and to have that self compassion,

I need to give myself time.

467

: 00:32:34

And, uh, and for the last 18 months,

I've, uh, taken my Fridays and, uh, just,

468

: 00:32:40

yeah, in the morning I'll finish whatever

work I need to do for, for the week.

469

: 00:32:43

And I jump on my bike and,

um, and just spend time in

470

: 00:32:46

nature, whatever the weather.

471

: 00:32:48

And it's coming to, to, uh, to

our winter, uh, in Britain here.

472

: 00:32:51

So, uh, a lot of wet

Fridays, um, uh, coming up.

473

: 00:32:55

But, um...

474

: 00:32:55

Wet and cold.

475

: 00:32:57

Wet and cold, yeah.

476

: 00:33:00

Snow and then I just go out tramping

through the snow and ice for the day.

477

: 00:33:04

Um, and um, and just, yeah,

it's just been taking that time

478

: 00:33:10

for, for myself and it has been

incredibly restorative and healing.

479

: 00:33:15

And, and yeah, I mean, I'm coming up

to almost 50 now, um, and, um, and it

480

: 00:33:20

is that 18 months of Fridays that have,

uh, that have enabled me to get to the

481

: 00:33:25

bottom of the source of, uh, of my anxiety

and, uh, of, uh, of the, the periods

482

: 00:33:31

of depression that I've experienced,

uh, through, through my career.

483

: 00:33:35

And get the clarity I need to understand

what I need to actually do now.

484

: 00:33:39

And I think it's very

easy to hide in your work.

485

: 00:33:43

And I think that I've been

guilty of that through my career.

486

: 00:33:46

Yeah, I might feel terrible about

myself, but I can get a pat on

487

: 00:33:49

the world, pat on the back from

the world when I publish a paper.

488

: 00:33:54

My name on the front.

489

: 00:33:56

Um, and, um, and I think, yeah, it's

easy to hide, hide in work and, and

490

: 00:34:01

ignore, uh, what, what's going on,

especially when you know that whatever

491

: 00:34:06

you open up is not going to be nice.

492

: 00:34:08

Um, but, um, but yeah, I, I,

I'm, uh, it's, it's been 18

493

: 00:34:13

months of, of, of hard work.

494

: 00:34:15

And for the first time

now I, I have clarity.

495

: 00:34:18

I understand why I struggled

the way that I have.

496

: 00:34:21

And, um, And yeah, I think, I want

to normalise that because, yeah,

497

: 00:34:28

getting therapy, if there are things

which just keep coming back again

498

: 00:34:32

and again and again, rather than

just accepting that these things

499

: 00:34:35

come, medicate them in whatever way.

500

: 00:34:38

I think it's important to recognize

that that is an option and there's

501

: 00:34:43

nothing there's no shame in that.

502

: 00:34:45

I often recommend people find find a

coach, find a coach is also a trained

503

: 00:34:50

counselor, because yeah, you might

feel like there's just some things

504

: 00:34:53

I need to, to overcome in terms of

productivity, but I have a sense

505

: 00:34:58

that there's a deeper roots and.

506

: 00:35:00

Let's work with a coach who can then

transform into a counsellor if and

507

: 00:35:03

when I need that, when I discover

the roots of these, these issues

508

: 00:35:07

that I'm trying to work through.

509

: 00:35:11

Geri: That seems to connect back to

what you said at the very beginning

510

: 00:35:14

about curiosity and courage.

511

: 00:35:19

What courage did it take to

create that Friday space?

512

: 00:35:24

Because I imagine there would always

be work demands that you could be

513

: 00:35:27

doing, especially when you seem

to be doing so much so what did it

514

: 00:35:31

take to actually protect that time?

515

: 00:35:36

Mark: Uh, so I think we can all do

this thought experiment, uh, what

516

: 00:35:40

to happen if you suddenly got sick,

um, and you had to go part time.

517

: 00:35:46

Uh, you're now having to cut

your, your hours in half.

518

: 00:35:51

Would you be 50 percent less productive

or actually would it force you to really

519

: 00:35:56

ask yourself, what are the core things?

520

: 00:35:58

What is the most important

things that I have to do?

521

: 00:36:02

Um, uh, and if you do that with your

values, uh, side by side, um, uh,

522

: 00:36:08

then you realize the things that

actually can go, that, that are not

523

: 00:36:12

actually that important, that you can

sacrifice, because in fact, it was just.

524

: 00:36:17

They're really to massage my

ego . Um, yeah, I've got, uh,

525

: 00:36:21

I've got, I dunno, 200 papers.

526

: 00:36:23

Uh, do I really need, uh,

10 papers a year, actually?

527

: 00:36:27

Yeah.

528

: 00:36:27

If I go for five papers a year,

that's still more than average.

529

: 00:36:30

I'm, I'm okay with that.

530

: 00:36:32

Um, uh, and as long as I'm doing, uh,

as the same amount of, of reviews, um,

531

: 00:36:39

for the community, as I extract from

the community, uh, through all of the,

532

: 00:36:43

the grants and, and papers I submit, um,

yeah, I'm gonna say I've done enough.

533

: 00:36:47

And so I think you can

all we can all do that.

534

: 00:36:50

And, and I think a lot of people it's yeah

I have children, and all of a sudden I

535

: 00:36:55

can't work evenings and weekends anymore.

536

: 00:36:57

And people who have gone through

that experience will tell you,

537

: 00:37:00

yeah, I still do all the core stuff

and actually I just focused on

538

: 00:37:04

the stuff that was most important.

539

: 00:37:06

your values that are driving you

to do that, then it becomes easy.

540

: 00:37:10

It was, it was a matter of survival.

541

: 00:37:12

I realized that I wasn't going to

be able to keep, to keep going.

542

: 00:37:16

Um, the lockdown was the kind of the

final straw for me in terms of my anxiety.

543

: 00:37:22

I didn't make it back

to face to face work.

544

: 00:37:24

Um, and, um, and yeah, that, that was

what made me realize, yeah, this is.

545

: 00:37:30

Fundamental and problematic enough

and compromising work to the point

546

: 00:37:35

that actually, I need to talk

to my line manager about this.

547

: 00:37:38

I need to, above board, go and take

these Fridays and do this work.

548

: 00:37:44

And I think, ultimately, the payback

will be that I will be able to, I've done

549

: 00:37:50

two, three now actually, work, face to

face work things, and they've gone well.

550

: 00:37:58

And so there will be that payback.

551

: 00:37:59

And I think there's this false

economy where you say, I don't

552

: 00:38:02

have time to prioritize me.

553

: 00:38:03

I need to just dive into my work.

554

: 00:38:06

And yeah, if you were to spend half

an hour, an hour every Monday morning

555

: 00:38:10

in work time, just doing something

deeply, For you, and it could be a work

556

: 00:38:15

priority, chipping away at some papers.

557

: 00:38:17

It could be, I don't know, playing

an instrument, being creative.

558

: 00:38:20

It's something that connects you

with your values, with your purpose

559

: 00:38:23

at the beginning of your week.

560

: 00:38:25

If you can't at the beginning of your day,

then, uh, yeah, you're taking time out.

561

: 00:38:30

But actually you go into your day

inspired, you go into your day with

562

: 00:38:34

the sense of I can, and as a result

you don't procrastinate, you don't

563

: 00:38:39

people please, um, you get on with the

difficult things, um, and you have this

564

: 00:38:46

sense of well being that stretches out

and becomes an arc from week to week,

565

: 00:38:50

to month to month, to term to term.

566

: 00:38:53

Uh, and enables you to

actually work more effectively.

567

: 00:38:56

And so, so yeah, I think it's a

false economy just saying, yeah,

568

: 00:38:59

I'm, I'm too busy to prioritize

myself and my own needs.

569

: 00:39:02

Um, and I put work first, but I'm just

running around like a headless chicken.

570

: 00:39:07

Geri: Yeah.

571

: 00:39:07

The headless chicken is something we

can probably, many of us can relate to.

572

: 00:39:11

Well, and that requires, you know,

you, when you were talking about your

573

: 00:39:15

PhD student, you talked about the

longer term view with them and enabling

574

: 00:39:19

their career development and also

the payback that they stay with you.

575

: 00:39:23

It's the same long term view that you're

talking about here, that in the short

576

: 00:39:28

term view we can just get the headless

chicken, can't look further than all the

577

: 00:39:32

things on the to do list, but that if you

can prioritize that time and connect with

578

: 00:39:40

what energizes you and where you can make

your difference, where you want to make

579

: 00:39:43

your difference, um, it resources you

for everything else that you need to do.

580

: 00:39:50

And it may be a long process.

581

: 00:39:51

I think that's the other thing

that's interesting is the, you

582

: 00:39:54

know, the arc of our careers.

583

: 00:39:57

You talked about the well being arc,

and it's the arc of our careers that if

584

: 00:40:03

we want to be around for the long term,

these are almost like non negotiables

585

: 00:40:08

being able to do these things.

586

: 00:40:12

Mark: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

587

: 00:40:15

Any parent will know the same thing.

588

: 00:40:16

It can just be sort of grueling, you

know, you're not getting any sleep,

589

: 00:40:20

there's just so many things to do and

you're trying to work at the same time.

590

: 00:40:23

Um, uh, and, uh, and yeah, you know that

if, uh, if you don't somehow manage to,

591

: 00:40:29

to get enough sleep, uh, if you don't

somehow manage to, to prioritize just

592

: 00:40:34

even a tiny bit of time for yourself, um,

then you're not actually going to be able

593

: 00:40:38

to be the parent that you want to be.

594

: 00:40:40

And you start seeing that coming out in

your parenting and the impact of that.

595

: 00:40:46

And so, yeah, we all find this truth in

different ways, in different contexts,

596

: 00:40:52

that it is that idea that everything

starts with love, and whether that

597

: 00:40:58

is a source that you find from within

yourself or from a higher being.

598

: 00:41:04

Um, the, that it has to start

with, uh, with, uh, with, with

599

: 00:41:07

the hearts of love within you.

600

: 00:41:09

Um, and, uh, only from that place,

uh, of, of self care can you

601

: 00:41:14

then care for others properly.

602

: 00:41:16

And that doesn't mean being selfish,

doesn't mean spending lots of time.

603

: 00:41:19

I think that's one of the objections

to the approach that I train in

604

: 00:41:22

through the productive researcher,

which is this idea that you start

605

: 00:41:24

your week or your day with something

that connects you to your purpose.

606

: 00:41:30

And people are like, well,

that's just really selfish.

607

: 00:41:33

But actually, if a colleague came

to you and said, I want to chip away

608

: 00:41:38

at one of my papers for my PhD, or

practice an instrument to energize

609

: 00:41:43

me for the week, one hour per week,

Before I start my week, you wouldn't

610

: 00:41:48

say, well, that's really selfish.

611

: 00:41:49

I want all your time

for me and my project.

612

: 00:41:51

I hope he was like, yeah,

that's really great.

613

: 00:41:54

That's fantastic.

614

: 00:41:55

And I can, of course, can see

how that will benefit you and in

615

: 00:41:57

the long term, your work project.

616

: 00:42:00

And, and you'd be like, yeah, so why can

we not do that for ourselves and actually.

617

: 00:42:06

If you can't do that for yourself,

it says something much deeper

618

: 00:42:09

about your own self respect.

619

: 00:42:11

And you need to go do the work to

ask, well, why can't I prioritize

620

: 00:42:15

half an hour on a Monday morning

as a starting point for this?

621

: 00:42:18

For me, I can't do that.

622

: 00:42:20

I can't find half an hour.

623

: 00:42:21

I'm not worth even that.

624

: 00:42:23

Yeah, and of course then you go on a

different journey and hopefully realise

625

: 00:42:27

at the end of that that maybe you can give

yourself half an hour in which way half an

626

: 00:42:32

hour per week can be enough just to give

you the sense of, oh yeah, I am actually

627

: 00:42:36

a human being after all, that has purpose

and it is connected to something deeper.

628

: 00:42:44

Geri: So purpose and values are recurring

themes in what you've said here today

629

: 00:42:50

and in your book, so to, you've got

another book on research impact, the

630

: 00:42:57

Handbook of Research Impact, but the

two books that purpose and values,

631

: 00:43:02

particularly figure in, I think, are the

productive researcher and, impact culture.

632

: 00:43:10

And I love the way, and I know that

you've talked about it as sort of,

633

: 00:43:14

you know, you're talking about these

things that sound, like what academia

634

: 00:43:18

wants, you know, productive research,

producing lots of outputs and papers

635

: 00:43:22

or, having impact, you know, which is

in particularly in the UK in terms of

636

: 00:43:27

how they evaluate research assessment and

increasingly in other places, a big issue.

637

: 00:43:32

But you underpin all this again

with this, this love, what would

638

: 00:43:36

love have you do and this starting

point also of values and purpose.

639

: 00:43:43

But for many.

640

: 00:43:44

People, when we talk about

purpose, it often becomes this

641

: 00:43:48

sort of ethereal concept and it,

how do people get a handle on it?

642

: 00:43:55

Can you say a little

bit more about purpose?

643

: 00:43:59

Mark: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

644

: 00:44:01

Um, so a question that I start many

of my trainings with, which you can

645

: 00:44:07

all ask yourselves is simply, what

do you love most about your work?

646

: 00:44:15

And, uh, and, yeah, you can say, well, I'm

interested in thermodynamics, and that's

647

: 00:44:20

what I research, yeah, but, but why?

648

: 00:44:21

Why aren't you interested

in that, of all things?

649

: 00:44:23

I mean, yeah, go to a school reunion,

um, and try and explain to someone

650

: 00:44:27

why that is intrinsically, uh, an

interesting, uh, thing that you would

651

: 00:44:31

love, and you'll just get weird looks.

652

: 00:44:34

What is it about that?

653

: 00:44:35

Um, and now I get a sense of,

well, it's just this sense of,

654

: 00:44:38

of wonder, of awe, of curiosity.

655

: 00:44:41

Uh, for others it's, uh, this, this sense

of creativity, of playfulness, of fun.

656

: 00:44:46

Uh, for others it's, uh, knowing that I'm

making a difference, uh, wanting to help

657

: 00:44:49

others, uh, seeing, uh, that curiosity

and creativity transformed into something

658

: 00:44:56

productive others can use, for example.

659

: 00:45:00

And, and the quality of that

conversation at the end of it, it's

660

: 00:45:04

energised, it's inspired, and you

realise, yeah, when was the last time I

661

: 00:45:08

actually thought about that, that why?

662

: 00:45:12

And then when was the last time I did

something that connected me with that why?

663

: 00:45:18

And in a busy academic role with personal

pressures of life, you end up just on

664

: 00:45:25

this hamster wheel sometimes, never

getting to prioritize the things that

665

: 00:45:29

you love until you get to this place

where you no longer love your work.

666

: 00:45:32

Actually, you feel demotivated,

demotivated, de energized,

667

: 00:45:36

uninspired, you're dragging yourself

through each day, each week.

668

: 00:45:43

And the idea is simply to ask

yourself, well, what are the things

669

: 00:45:46

that you do that take you to that

place of, I love, and how can you

670

: 00:45:51

make time for that on a regular basis?

671

: 00:45:54

I take people through a bunch of

exercises to really clarify that.

672

: 00:45:58

I get people to think about

their different identities

673

: 00:45:59

a work identity, a home

674

: 00:46:03

identity.

675

: 00:46:04

What are those different home identities?

676

: 00:46:05

Have they got different roles?

677

: 00:46:07

Um, but what do I bring to those roles?

678

: 00:46:09

So, yeah, I'm a teacher, I'm a researcher,

but actually, no, I'm not just a teacher.

679

: 00:46:13

I'm a facilitator.

680

: 00:46:14

That's how I do teaching.

681

: 00:46:15

I'm not just a researcher.

682

: 00:46:16

I'm an explorer or whatever it might be.

683

: 00:46:18

And we now have all of

these different identities.

684

: 00:46:20

And from those identities,

we look at values.

685

: 00:46:23

What are the things that animate,

that inspire you to be a facilitator

686

: 00:46:27

rather than a teacher, to be an

explorer rather than just a learner,

687

: 00:46:31

for example, as a researcher.

688

: 00:46:34

Um, where does that come from?

689

: 00:46:36

And then it is at that intersection

between our identities and our

690

: 00:46:40

values that we find our purpose.

691

: 00:46:43

And the final thing that I get people

to do then is to say, well, great,

692

: 00:46:46

if this is who you are and the values

that inspire you, now how does that

693

: 00:46:50

match up to how you spend your time?

694

: 00:46:52

And I get people to draw

this as a pie chart.

695

: 00:46:54

And if you redraw that pie chart,

now saying, well, how much time

696

: 00:46:58

do I get to spend being creative?

697

: 00:47:02

Being the father I want to

be, the husband I want to be,

698

: 00:47:04

or whatever else it might be.

699

: 00:47:06

What are the things that feel, which

are big parts of your identity,

700

: 00:47:11

underpinned by important values that

actually feel consistently squeezed?

701

: 00:47:15

I never get enough time.

702

: 00:47:16

In fact, I get no time at all in

some of these, these parts of myself,

703

: 00:47:19

and I feel like I'm losing touch

with that part of myself, that I'm

704

: 00:47:23

becoming thinner somehow as a person.

705

: 00:47:26

And then the question is, what could

you do on a habitual basis in as

706

: 00:47:31

little as half an hour on a Monday

morning that could connect you with

707

: 00:47:36

that part of yourself, or at least

one of those parts of yourself that's

708

: 00:47:39

really important but is squeezed.

709

: 00:47:41

What you get then is this disproportional

impact on that sense of who you are,

710

: 00:47:46

your identity, your values, your

sense of well being, and half an hour.

711

: 00:47:50

doing that thing now actually rights

all of these wrongs, gives you this

712

: 00:47:54

sense of well being, this sense of

work life balance even coming, even

713

: 00:47:58

although you haven't quite got the

hours under control yet, that can

714

: 00:48:02

just power you through so much.

715

: 00:48:05

Geri: Yeah, the, the, um, The

thing that is also really impactful

716

: 00:48:12

in your Impact Culture book is

the notion that this change can

717

: 00:48:21

happen from the bottom up as well.

718

: 00:48:23

Like, we can all do that find a half hour.

719

: 00:48:26

And we can all role model that within

our places where we're working.

720

: 00:48:31

And you talk about building culture

from that bottom up, and that we don't

721

: 00:48:36

need to have the sign on our door saying

we're a leader, to be a leader in that.

722

: 00:48:42

And, and, Very much that sense

of leading by empowering, and I'm

723

: 00:48:46

conscious that we're getting up to time.

724

: 00:48:50

I could just leave it there as

a teaser for people to make sure

725

: 00:48:54

they go and read the Impact Culture

book to read more about that.

726

: 00:48:58

Or is it sort of a short thing

you'd want to say, um, around that?

727

: 00:49:05

Mark: Yeah, I guess it's

just summing up, isn't it?

728

: 00:49:08

And, um, How can we go from a conversation

like this into a more purposeful day

729

: 00:49:20

to make some plans that will connect us

each with whatever our purpose might be,

730

: 00:49:26

to remind us of that and not to wait.

731

: 00:49:30

for a new head of school, um, to

that perfect job that I'm going to

732

: 00:49:34

get, um, that, that will be a place

in which I can feel like I belong.

733

: 00:49:39

Uh, I can create that place now,

uh, for myself, perhaps with a small

734

: 00:49:44

number of other colleagues around me

who share a similar purpose to me.

735

: 00:49:49

Um, and, um, I just, yeah, I just want

to empower you to, to, to, to think,

736

: 00:49:54

uh, for yourself, uh, and, uh, and to

make that time whatever the pressures

737

: 00:50:00

might be, uh, because it will pay, it

will pay dividends, it really will.

738

: 00:50:05

Geri: Yeah, and creating that more

purposeful workplace that you talk about

739

: 00:50:09

as well, which then leads into all of the

actual impact that we want our research

740

: 00:50:14

to have in the ways that you talk about.

741

: 00:50:16

So I look forward to your next book

coming out and I will point people

742

: 00:50:22

in the show notes to your web pages.

743

: 00:50:25

wonderful podcast and your books.

744

: 00:50:28

And I, I also just want to thank

you for making the book so readable,

745

: 00:50:34

so personal, and so actionable.

746

: 00:50:37

I Think there's a way in which they

also walk the talk about making

747

: 00:50:42

a difference and having impact,

uh, just in what you bring to it.

748

: 00:50:47

Anything that you would want to just say

749

: 00:50:51

Mark: yeah, just to say

thank you, Geraldine.

750

: 00:50:53

And, um, and yeah, so, so have a

look, listen to what I'm doing.

751

: 00:50:57

I've just finished a, a series in

the podcast on, on evaluating and

752

: 00:51:02

evidencing impact I'm not quite

sure where I'm going to take it next

753

: 00:51:05

.

Um, and what a privilege it is to be able to connect.

754

: 00:51:08

So it's always nice when you're

kind of aware of someone, um,

755

: 00:51:10

and listening to their work and

getting that opportunity to actually

756

: 00:51:14

connect and have that conversation.

757

: 00:51:15

So thank you.

758

: 00:51:16

Geri: Indeed.

759

: 00:51:17

Thank you, Mark.

760

: 00:51:18

Thank you.

761

: 00:51:18

Thank you for your time.

762

: 00:51:20

Mark: It's been a pleasure.

763

: 00:51:23

Geri: I really want to

thank mark for sharing.

764

: 00:51:26

So honestly, here.

765

: 00:51:28

And again, what an inspiring

demonstration of courage,

766

: 00:51:31

curiosity, and the quest for impact.

767

: 00:51:36

I'd really encourage you to follow

up on all of Mark's great resources.

768

: 00:51:42

His podcast, his books.

769

: 00:51:44

The trainings that he does.

770

: 00:51:46

And so on.

771

: 00:51:47

You can find the links to all

of these in the show notes.

772

: 00:51:52

And I'd also encourage you to think

about what's the one thing you will

773

: 00:51:55

do now, having listened to this.

774

: 00:51:59

And what would love have you do today?

775

: 00:52:07

You can find the summary

notes, a transcript and related

776

: 00:52:11

links for this podcast on www.

777

: 00:52:14

changingacademiclife.

778

: 00:52:16

com.

779

: 00:52:17

You can also subscribe to

Changing Academic Life on iTunes,

780

: 00:52:21

Spotify and Google Podcasts.

781

: 00:52:23

And you can follow

ChangeAcadLife on Twitter.

782

: 00:52:27

And I'm really hoping that we can

widen the conversation about how

783

: 00:52:30

we can do academia differently.

784

: 00:52:33

And you can contribute to this by rating

the podcast and also giving feedback.

785

: 00:52:37

And if something connected with

you, please consider sharing this

786

: 00:52:41

podcast with your colleagues.

787

: 00:52:43

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