Professor Mark Reed is an academic, author, podcaster, consultant, trainer, policy advisor among his many roles. His research area is on ecosystem markets and environmental governance, and he studies how researchers can generate and share their knowledge so they can change the world. Reflecting both of these strands, he is both an academic, co-directing a research Centre at Scotland’s Rural College, and he is the founder of Fast Track Impact, a training and coaching company, and he hosts The Fast Track Impact podcast. He also has a host of other roles you can read about on his web page. 

We discuss the concept of 'impact' in academia, the challenges of mental health and burnout amongst academics, and the importance of self-compassion, self-reflection and self-care. Driven by a desire to make a difference, Mark intertwines his academic inquiries with a commitment to environmental stewardship and decolonizing research. He also talks about his commitment to empowering colleagues, managing postdocs efficiently, and his take on the biases and limitations within the academic system.

Overview

00:05 Introduction

00:30 Meet Professor Mark Reed: A Multi-faceted Academic

01:18 The Importance of Self-Reflection in Academia

01:56 Mark's Personal Struggles and the Importance of Self-Compassion

02:07 The Role of Purpose and Values in Mark's Work

02:56 Mark's Journey as an Academic and Policy Advisor

07:23 The Challenges and Biases in the Academic System

08:32 Building a Compassionate Culture in Academia

11:33 Decolonizing Research and Influencing Policy

27:11 The Role of Empathy and Love in Research

32:13 The Importance of Self-Care and Work-Life Balance in Academia

48:05 Creating a Purposeful Workplace and Leading from the Bottom Up

51:24 Conclusion: The Impact of Love and Empathy in Academia

52:56 End

Listen here for a version to follow the transcript linked directly to the audio

Related Links

Mark's research web page & Fast Track Impact page

Mark’s books: https://www.fasttrackimpact.com/books#impact-culture

• The Research Impact Handbook  2nd Ed 2018
• The Productive Researcher 2017
• Impact Culture 2022 

Mark’s ‘The Fast Track Impact’ podcast series

Mark Reed & Hanna Rudman, Re-thinking research impact: voice, context and power at the interface of science, policy and practice, 18, Sustainability Science, 967-981, 2023.

Richard Watermeyer's 2019 book: Competitive Accountability in Academic Life: The Struggle for Social Impact and Public Legitimacy

Dr Kristin Neff, Uni of Austen Texas on self compassion

Prof Michelle Pinard, Uni of Aberdeen 

Welcome to Changing Academic Life.

2

I'm Geraldine Fitzpatrick, and this is

a podcast series where academics and

3

others share their stories, provide

ideas, and provoke discussions about what

4

we can do individually and collectively

to change academic life for the better.

5

.

Today, I bring you a conversation with Professor Mark Reed.

6

Mark's an academic, an author, a

podcaster consultant trainer policy

7

advisor, amongst his many roles.

8

And he's someone who's really driven

by wanting to make a difference.

9

His research is on ecosystem markets

and environmental governance.

10

And he also studies how researchers

can generate and share their

11

knowledge for more impact.

12

Reflecting both of these strands.

13

He's an academic, co-directing a research

center at Scotland's rural college.

14

And he is the founder of a

company called fast track impact.

15

And as part of this hosts the

fast track impact podcast series.

16

Given the recent discussions

around burnout, I thought

17

it would be particularly

interesting to talk with mark.

18

Because if you listen to

his podcast, you'll know him

19

as an amazingly reflective,

thoughtful and principled person.

20

Who brings his whole self and

shares very honestly and openly.

21

In that same vein, we discuss here some

of the issues around academic research,

22

like the complex nature of research and

biases within the system and ways that

23

we might sort of decolonize research.

24

And more particularly for

our recent discussions.

25

He also shares his own personal struggles

and challenges around mental health.

26

And the importance of self

compassion and being self-reflective.

27

And you'll see a really strong red thread

about how he's really clear about his

28

purpose and values and the importance of

that for guiding all of his decisions.

29

I found it a really inspiring and honest

demonstration of courage and curiosity

30

and the, and the quest for impact.

31

Enjoy listening to this

conversation with Mark Reed.

32

Mark, thanks for joining me.

33

I'm really so excited to be talking to

you because I've been a huge fan of your

34

work and what you put out in the world.

35

Before we get to some of that, how

would you want to introduce yourself?

36

Because it's rich and

complex and multifaceted.

37

Mark: Um, yeah, so I guess I have a

few different hats that I can put on.

38

Um, and I guess for this, it's

primarily the role that I play through

39

FastTrackImpact, which is a company I set

up to generate impact from my research

40

on impact, um, trying to understand how

it is that we as researchers can use our

41

work to make a difference in the world,

um, and so through fast track impact,

42

I do training, create free resources

and, uh, and do my best to enable busy

43

academics to use their time as wisely as

possible to make as much of a difference

44

as they can with the time that they have.

45

I am also a full time academic.

46

I'm a professor of rural,

rural entrepreneurship and co

47

director of a research centre

at Scotland's Rural College.

48

I've got visiting chairs in, in three

other universities and a range of

49

other roles with policy organisations.

50

where I am trying to achieve impact

from my environmental research.

51

So I have this kind of dual track of

the environmental research where I'm

52

trying to make a difference in one

domain, applying what I'm learning from

53

my research on impact to try and make

more of a difference in my own work,

54

but also then bringing that experience

and that kind of lived experience of

55

what actually works in practice back

into my research and training on impact.

56

Geri: It's, it's, that's very meta.

57

Mark: Yeah, it's nice.

58

The two just, yeah, they

work really nicely together.

59

And also my PhD, wanting

to make a difference and

60

failing to make a difference.

61

And then just like any curious

researcher wondering, yeah, how

62

did I get this so badly wrong?

63

What can I do differently

and generalize from there?

64

Geri: And that's what comes across so

much in all your work that I don't know

65

stepping into the full humanity of.

66

Who you are as Mark Reed, like not who

you, you know, not who you are as the

67

academic in some generic identity sense,

but I think the richness and the value

68

comes from that, I don't know, just

owning all of the different complexities

69

and the things not working out.

70

And more than that, the

ability to reflect on it.

71

Were you always a very reflective person?

72

Mark: Yeah, I don't know.

73

I don't think any more

than any other researcher.

74

I've yet to meet a researcher who is

not driven in some sense by a sense

75

of curiosity, but, um, I think, um, As

I've gone on through my career, I've had

76

more courage and seen the difference it

can make to talk about the challenges.

77

I think that that's also

given me some meaning.

78

I've had some fairly major challenges

that I've had to wade through to get

79

where I am, just to do what I'm doing.

80

And, um, and I think being able to

to reflect on that and and talk about

81

that and empower others has helped

me to find some meaning in that to

82

say well yeah it wasn't for nothing

actually if others can take something

83

from that experience and And I think

it's, it's quite rare that people in

84

kind of more senior roles, like myself,

talk about these kinds of challenges.

85

And the result is that you look at

all of these people who are further

86

ahead than you in your career, and it

just seems completely unattainable.

87

If only I had all of the privileges

that someone like Mark has, and I

88

have a lot of privileges as A white,

heterosexual male with English as my

89

first language, all of the rest of it.

90

And I think what I've tried to communicate

is that, yeah, for all of that privilege,

91

I've had hidden struggles with mental

health in particular that have been

92

debilitating, that have required

me to make major adaptations to my

93

work, sacrifices, and whatever it is.

94

That, that you might be facing.

95

My, my hope is that, that I can give

people a, a bit of hope that yeah, it's

96

possible to, to get through Mm-Hmm.

97

Um, and to, and to keep going, uh, and,

um, and hopefully give a few people

98

a bit of sustenance on the way if,

if they've found things hard as well.

99

And yeah, some of it's internal,

but a lot of it is external.

100

We, we are working in a broken

system that makes things incredibly

101

hard, uh, especially if you.

102

find your life at the intersection

of a whole load of disadvantages, um,

103

uh, and, uh, on the, the wrong end of,

uh, of all of the, the institutional

104

biases and privileges that are handed

out to certain types of, of, of people.

105

It's an incredibly hard place

to, to work in and thrive.

106

Rejection just baked into,

to, to the system of peer

107

review and all the rest of it.

108

So, so yeah, I, I, I.

109

It's hard, but it's good.

110

And I think it's just that

reality that I want to paint

111

through the work that I'm doing.

112

Geri: You're talking

about personal issues.

113

And that is just such a salient reminder

about, don't believe what we see, that

114

all of us are human in different ways.

115

And probably everyone we're working

with has different sorts of issues.

116

You talk a lot about building

a compassionate culture.

117

Can you say a little bit more about that

in terms of how we might enable space

118

for one another to, uh, on the surface

seem like we're okay, but actually not be

119

Mark: one of the exercises I do in,

uh, in a couple of my, my trainings is.

120

To get people to think about and discuss

how they deal with challenges around

121

imposter syndrome, perfectionism,

people pleasing, things like that.

122

To just normalise the fact that,

oh, we all struggle with at least

123

one of these, at least from time to

time, and many of us struggle with

124

multiple of these, a lot of the time.

125

And for a lot of people

just opening that up.

126

having some discussion about that.

127

The biggest eye opener is the

fact that we're not alone in this.

128

And, um, and surprisingly, actually,

it's, it's often new professors who, uh,

129

who I find struggle most with imposter

syndrome because imposter syndrome

130

ultimately is about a gap between how you

see yourself and how the world sees you.

131

And so it is often, uh, once we reach

those milestones that we've been striving

132

for and thought, yes, if I can just

get to that point, then I'll feel like

133

I'm worth it, that I deserve this.

134

That all of a sudden that gulf opens up

again, um, and, and I think especially,

135

I think it's particularly powerful when

more senior colleagues open up about these

136

kind of struggles and how they've dealt

with them, uh, because, uh, ultimately

137

yes, we come back and reflect on this.

138

What I encourage people to do is

to realize that they've taken the

139

first step towards self compassion.

140

And Kristin Neff talks about this

from University of Austin, Texas.

141

Um, that actually the first step towards

self compassion is realizing that you

142

are not alone, realizing that actually

part of the human experience to suffer

143

and actually now I'm not beating myself

up and saying I shouldn't feel like this,

144

actually this is normal and this is okay.

145

And that place of self acceptance

and self compassion is actually,

146

I would suggest, the foundation

for compassion towards others.

147

And so, for me doing this in a group

setting, whether that's in a training

148

with me, in a research group setting,

just talking openly about these things.

149

And it can be in a really positive

way about how you tackle, how you

150

deal with, how you've overcome.

151

It doesn't have to be overly

vulnerable if you don't want it to be.

152

But that can just normalise the fact that,

yeah, we all struggle with these things.

153

We all give ourselves self compassion,

and we start to see our colleagues

154

with more humanity, understanding that,

yeah, perhaps you're having a hard day.

155

Perhaps I can see now, based on what you

said, that that's maybe what's going on.

156

Maybe I can help build you

up when everything else

157

seems to be tearing you down.

158

Mm,

159

Geri: and with the biases that you

talked about in the system, do you

160

want to unpack that a little bit more?

161

I mean, you mentioned the high rate

of rejection that we know is also tied

162

up with our whole, um, perfectionism

and performance metrics and how we

163

beat ourself up often, but how do

you see or experience the biases

164

and the brokenness of the system?

165

Mark: Um, so I guess at one end of the

spectrum is the insecurity of tenure

166

that many of us face, a job that you have

trained for years and years and invested.

167

Whether it's your own money or just lost,

lost earnings in terms of your education,

168

you've invested huge amounts in and,

uh, and then you've got, uh, an average

169

kind of wage you might be able to get.

170

It's not terrible, but it's not

great, uh, given the number of

171

years that you've invested in that.

172

Um, and one, two year, three year

contracts, and enrolling from one contract

173

to the next, and a publish or perish

culture in which, yeah, if, if I'm not

174

lucky with, with my bosses and, and

I end up not getting first authorship

175

opportunities, not getting time to

write up PhD, whatever else it might be.

176

Uh, then, then yeah, I get stuck

on a hamster wheel of insecurity.

177

I can't get a mortgage.

178

Uh, and, um, and yeah, that's, it's not a

life in which you want to bring a family

179

into, uh, you end up putting your whole,

whole life on, uh, on hold for this, um,

180

and, and, and then at the other end of

the spectrum, um, yeah, people like me.

181

Who got security of tenure, who, who then,

uh, build networks and get privileged

182

opportunities simply because of who I am.

183

And, uh, Sir Richard Waterby is, uh,

published on this, but there are others

184

who, um, have written about how the, at

least in the UK, the majority of, uh,

185

researchers advising government, uh,

are old white men, typically with prof

186

in front of their name, people like me.

187

Um, and so I have access, uh, to,

to, to policy networks that my

188

early career colleagues don't have.

189

Um, uh, and, uh, and so my next book

actually is called Influencing Policy,

190

and what I've attempted to do in

this is to try and decolonize, uh,

191

my approach to influencing policy.

192

And to just call out and recognize

for what it is, the fact that a lot

193

of research into policy is one elite

influencing another elite, because, like

194

it or not, researchers are an elite.

195

And here we are in this cozy little

club with a bunch of policy elites

196

telling them what they should do.

197

When in reality, the decisions that

those policy makers make will have

198

far reaching implications for a

whole load of groups who are often

199

disadvantaged, vulnerable, marginalized.

200

And they don't get a say.

201

They're not in those corridors of power.

202

And I think that one of our greatest

challenges, but also privileges is in

203

thinking about how we can give that power

away, how we can, uh, if not empower and

204

bring those people into the corridors

of power, give voice to their opinions

205

and not just assume that our policy

colleagues are going to do that for us.

206

And of course that then applies

to how we manage our postdocs.

207

I've got a postdoc who just started

with me last month and I said to

208

her, uh, I expect you as part of the

project management plan that you are

209

putting together, I expect you to tell

me all the papers that you're working

210

on from your previous positions,

um, and PhD, if they're still there.

211

Um, and by the end of this post, uh,

have a plan that makes sure that they

212

are all submitted and into the system

as well as all of the stuff that

213

we have to do in, in this project.

214

Um, and, and doing that mentoring, but

potentially coaching as well if people

215

want, um, and trying again to give

away what we have, um, as more senior

216

academics, uh, to those who are less

fortunate than ourselves, so that we

217

can give them that, that, that leg up.

218

Geri: I'm just wondering whether some

people listening may think that there's

219

a cost to doing that as a PI, telling

the postdoc, you can work on papers from

220

previous roles, and not this one that

you may not be a co author on, or that

221

you may bring in other people into the

policy discussion so that you're not

222

getting the kudos and brownie points.

223

Have you had any.

224

Um, do you, do you have

those sorts of discussions or

225

debates with yourself at all?

226

What are the trade offs, I guess?

227

Mark: So if you, if you've got a postdoc

that, uh, that, that you are really

228

impressed with, that you really, uh, you

want this postdoc to stay to the end of

229

your project and potentially work with

you on future projects, uh, or, uh,

230

in an ideal world come into your team

as a lecturer or, uh, uh, et cetera.

231

Then, then why wouldn't you want to invest

for the long term and yeah, there's a,

232

an initial cost to you and they might

get a lecture, lectureship elsewhere.

233

Um, but, uh, but, but one thing's

likely is that they will stay

234

to the end of the project.

235

And if they do get an offer, they

can't refuse, then they will work as

236

responsibly as possible to tie things

off and not leave you in the lurch.

237

And my PI colleagues, uh, who take a

much more kind of mercenary approach

238

to this, um, regularly have problems

with staff turnover, um, where,

239

yeah, uh, why would I work for this

person if I get an offer elsewhere?

240

And why would I bother myself to tie

things off someone like this when,

241

well, what are they given to me?

242

Um, and, and so, so you can argue

that, but when it comes to the policy

243

side of things, I think that there's

actually something deeply irresponsible

244

and fundamentally wrong with the idea

that I try to get my research impact

245

based on my research when policy should

not be based on individual studies.

246

And to do so would mean that policy

would flip flop every time a new study

247

comes out that says something different

for equally good reasons, because

248

they've got a different sample, a

different research design, a different

249

model, or whatever it might be.

250

And of course, we all know that

the literature is rarely, uh,

251

unanimous, uh, in anything.

252

And so we should be basing policy advice.

253

A, on evidence synthesis, on bodies

of work, not just on our own work,

254

but actually in any democracy we

should be trying our best to represent

255

different perspectives as well.

256

Because the policy process is not this

kind of black and white reductionist

257

process of finding a singular truth.

258

It is actually a democratic process of

representing different perspectives,

259

and so we will prevent present an

evidence based perspective, which could

260

have multiple lines of evidence that

might suggest doing different things.

261

There could be moral lines of argument

that simply say, yes, the evidence might

262

say that's okay, but we don't think it is.

263

And so I work in the environment

space, I work with academics who

264

tell me that there is scientific

consensus that GM foods are safe.

265

And that fracking is not dangerous.

266

And yet, at least in the UK, things may

be changing a bit since leaving Brexit.

267

But we have made decisions that

say, no, because the public

268

are not happy about this.

269

And that is right.

270

And in a world where scientists rule,

well, you don't need democracy anymore.

271

That's actually an autocracy.

272

Uh, and I think that we need

to actually think really deeply

273

about why we're doing what we're

doing if this is about my glory.

274

Geri: Again, that takes a lot of self

reflection and Leaving the ego at

275

the door and, um, how to negotiate

these competing concerns, data,

276

evidence, all sorts of aspects.

277

You talked about decolonizing

this process and you talked about,

278

um, then bringing in more people.

279

Are there other ways in which

you, you think about decolonizing

280

that, uh, influencing policy?

281

Yeah.

282

Mark: So, um, uh, I guess.

283

The, the best place to point

you is, is a paper that I

284

published, uh, is it last year?

285

Uh, called Rethinking No.

286

This year actually

Rethinking Research Impact.

287

And, um, and this is, is an initial

attempt to decolonize that this

288

whole, uh, narrative, um, that, that

we have, uh, around research impact,

289

uh, that it is, uh, about us as the

researchers who know what is right

290

and what is best, uh, telling everyone

what to do based on the evidence.

291

Mm-hmm.

292

And it was the most challenging

thing that I've ever written.

293

It took six, seven years in total.

294

And the majority of my co authors actually

decided that they wanted to withdraw

295

and not have their names associated

with the paper because they believed

296

that the paper itself was racist.

297

And so it was this, this huge internal

battle for me to decide whether

298

or not I should self censor this

or whether I should put this out.

299

And despite the fact that there is

a fundamental problem here, which

300

is that it is the lead author is me.

301

And here I am saying that, that

we need to get out of the way.

302

and enable those less privileged than us

to lead this process for their own benefit

303

when I'm not getting out of the way and

letting someone else write this article.

304

And I think that for me that's been

a process of saying well yeah this

305

is work in progress for me and I'm

not maybe as far ahead in my thinking

306

as some of my co authors are.

307

But I know that there's plenty of

people who are still behind me on this

308

curve, and by speaking about this, I

can help others to become more self

309

reflective and think about this.

310

And so how I got around this was

to write a positionality statement

311

in a paper, me and my co author.

312

Um, to explain, uh, our positionality

in relation to all of these issues,

313

um, and, uh, and the intersection

of, uh, of advantage and disadvantage

314

that, that we experience.

315

And as part of that, I, um, in the

paper made a public apology for

316

what I now see as the epistemic

racism of my PhD research.

317

Uh, where, uh, I went out to the Kalahari,

um, uh, and, uh, and tested local

318

knowledge, um, and validated, um, all

of this incredible local knowledge, uh,

319

against Western scientific principles,

uh, as if somehow, uh, I'd proven that

320

you were right because, uh, because

Western science says you're right.

321

I mean, it's just painfully patronizing.

322

Um, but I was blind to it at the time.

323

And so, so for me, it's about recognizing

what I've done wrong, um, uh, that

324

this is not fixed yet, but, uh,

but, but opening this up to others.

325

And in this paper, I talk about three

ways in which we can do this, which is

326

paying attention to voice, to contact.

327

And to power.

328

And I guess it's that final thing that

I've been talking about here, which

329

is that positionality and recognizing

my own implicit power and how that

330

comes across to others, whether or

not I'm aware of that, working with

331

that, so that I can empower others.

332

And when I'm working policy or any other

kind of context, it's about understanding

333

those power dynamics, so that I'm not

putting people with each other who

334

are going to traumatize each other.

335

I'm separating groups where necessary

to work with them individually.

336

And I'm thinking about how I bring this to

them, rather than expecting them to come

337

to me or to the policy process or to reply

to some consultation or whatever else.

338

And that requires working with

professional facilitators or building

339

those kind of skills yourself and

thinking much more systematically

340

about who we are working with.

341

And I've got a process I call a 3 I

analysis where I think about people's

342

interest, influence and impact.

343

Whether that's influences positive or

negative, it's maybe a blocking influence

344

as much as it is a facilitating influence

to achieve good things and impact,

345

whether that's they're gonna benefit from

this or negatively be impacted by this.

346

And, and this is a paper I've got on

the review at the moment, which is

347

effectively a, a, a, a more inclusive

approach to stakeholder analysis.

348

Uh, and a, another, another paper

under review at the moment where.

349

We are suggesting that even the word

stakeholder has colonial roots and

350

connotations which are problematic

that we need to root out if we

351

are to decolonize our language.

352

And so I guess to come back to your

question, for me the starting point is

353

that three I analysis, understanding

who it is that is out there in

354

a much more inclusive way, but a

deeper way so we can understand those

355

power dynamics and work with them.

356

Geri: And it sounds like underpinning

all that is another I around

357

intention, like your own intention,

um, coming into that work.

358

Mark: Tell me more.

359

What's, what's sweet?

360

What's your thought?

361

Geri: Well, it just struck me that,

you know, you can reflect on your

362

PhD work very honestly and openly

and cringe now and go, how could

363

I've How could I have done that?

364

Or how could I have been so arrogant to

bring this sort of, uh, Western lens?

365

And at the time, your best intention was

to do good because you talk about making

366

a difference , it seems like a red thread

value through everything that you do.

367

Um, and so sometimes our intentions,

while they come from a good place, may

368

also serve to blind us in some ways

to some of the maybe implicit biases.

369

Or just blind spots that we're not

seeing, you know, that, that with

370

time and with progression, just with

general society and general awareness,

371

I think you sort of go, Oh, goodness.

372

I think we can all in some ways,

look back at some of our research

373

and go, how did I do that?

374

Mark: Yeah.

375

Yeah.

376

Totally.

377

Yeah.

378

I come from a missionary family.

379

Um, and, um, some of my

ancestors were some of the first

380

missionaries in central Africa.

381

Um, and, um, I myself, I'm still a church

going Christian, um, that's, that's

382

my heritage, and, um, and I can see

the incredible good that my ancestors

383

did, that the church has done, and

the incredible evil that it has done.

384

And I'm using those two words, um,

because I think there is a, there is a

385

spiritual dimension to, to all of this.

386

And so for, for me, That word intention

takes me to a spiritual heart, and the

387

level of self reflection that we need

to do needs to be at that level, whether

388

we have a faith or not, it needs to be,

yeah, we need that external lens on what

389

we're doing, rather than our own internal

biases and lenses through which we look

390

at that we're completely unaware of.

391

to, to challenge us and

to challenge us deeply.

392

And I guess the question that I ask just

in my personal life and across everything

393

is, is what would, what would love do?

394

And for me that's a deeply personal

and a deeply spiritual question.

395

But, but asking what would love do in

this situation, uh, can, uh, can help

396

clarify intention for me at least.

397

Geri: And that's even in your

research, what would love to,

398

in sort of, I don't know, even down to

what research questions you frame and

399

what you choose to put your time to.

400

Mark: Yeah, absolutely.

401

Um, it's, it's quite

simple having a single, um,

402

overarching principle or value.

403

And so that's, that's been

my, my starting point.

404

Um, and, um, And, and, and that's

where, yeah, that's, that's why every

405

decision that I've made I've tried to

pass it through that and yeah, God knows

406

I've gotten it badly wrong multiple

times but of course you know when

407

you've gotten it wrong because love

tells you this is not love anymore.

408

Um, and um, and yeah, so I, I, I decided

early on that as a 12 year old, I want

409

to be missionary like my ancestors.

410

I went to university in order to study

tropical environmental science, to

411

go back to Africa where my ancestors

were, went to Africa, um, had a bit

412

of a revelation, realized, oh, there's

another side to all of this stuff.

413

Um, I decided actually the

biggest difference I could make

414

is through research and teaching.

415

I want to be an academic.

416

Um, one of my, my lecturers in my

fourth year, Michelle Pinard at Aberdeen

417

University, totally inspired me.

418

And I was like, yeah, I want

your job because if I can inspire

419

people the way you're inspiring me,

then I can do good in the world.

420

And she was doing development

studies type stuff.

421

Um, and I figured, you know what, yeah,

maybe I can actually have a far bigger

422

impact if I can start to be a bit more

critical about all this stuff, think

423

much more deeply about this and find

ways to teach others, um, based on

424

what I learn in this, in this area.

425

And, and of course that started

off in a very patronizing way.

426

Um, but it's kind of grown into, um, uh,

trying to, to not only fix environmental

427

problems, but to understand how it is

that we can all do good in the world

428

and hence to fast track impact and to

the training and the resources that I

429

create, which are all geared towards

whatever you want to do in the world,

430

whatever your value system might be, how

can you do, do good with, with your work.

431

Geri: That's so powerful.

432

I'm just, I'm feeling it in my gut, just

that resonating what would love do and the

433

way that that's remains a constant, even

though the practical ways you've realized

434

that have shifted and changed with

experience, with insight, with reflection.

435

And it's not something we ever think

of, we, like, love and research

436

aren't two words, or love and

academia aren't two words we hear

437

about, um, together very often.

438

Mark: No, but, uh, the word

that I tend to use with my

439

academic colleagues is empathy.

440

And there's, um, Not a million

miles between the concept of love

441

and the concept of, uh, of empathy.

442

Mm-Hmm.

443

Uh, and, and for me, a

definition of empathy is simply

444

compassion that takes action.

445

Uh, and, and love is a doing word.

446

Uh, love without action is just a

theory and it becomes meaningless.

447

And so, uh, for, for me, um, uh,

compassion that takes act action.

448

Uh, it might be a definition

for empathy, but it could also

449

be a definition for impact.

450

Mm

451

Geri: hmm.

452

Yeah.

453

Yeah.

454

And your self compassion that you

talked about before is, is love as well.

455

Yeah.

456

Because if you're not able to bring

your best self in that way or deal with.

457

All of the anxieties or the, the

imposter or whatever, you're not going

458

to be able to do the, the more outward

facing love that you want to do.

459

Yeah.

460

Mark: Yeah, exactly.

461

Yeah.

462

And I've had some, some fairly

challenging things that have happened to

463

me and, uh, just contexts within life.

464

And, and a lot of that

is, is ongoing sadly.

465

And I think I've, I've, I've worked

out that actually just to, to survive

466

and to have that self compassion,

I need to give myself time.

467

And, uh, and for the last 18 months,

I've, uh, taken my Fridays and, uh, just,

468

yeah, in the morning I'll finish whatever

work I need to do for, for the week.

469

And I jump on my bike and,

um, and just spend time in

470

nature, whatever the weather.

471

And it's coming to, to, uh, to

our winter, uh, in Britain here.

472

So, uh, a lot of wet

Fridays, um, uh, coming up.

473

But, um...

474

Wet and cold.

475

Wet and cold, yeah.

476

Snow and then I just go out tramping

through the snow and ice for the day.

477

Um, and um, and just, yeah,

it's just been taking that time

478

for, for myself and it has been

incredibly restorative and healing.

479

And, and yeah, I mean, I'm coming up

to almost 50 now, um, and, um, and it

480

is that 18 months of Fridays that have,

uh, that have enabled me to get to the

481

bottom of the source of, uh, of my anxiety

and, uh, of, uh, of the, the periods

482

of depression that I've experienced,

uh, through, through my career.

483

And get the clarity I need to understand

what I need to actually do now.

484

And I think it's very

easy to hide in your work.

485

And I think that I've been

guilty of that through my career.

486

Yeah, I might feel terrible about

myself, but I can get a pat on

487

the world, pat on the back from

the world when I publish a paper.

488

My name on the front.

489

Um, and, um, and I think, yeah, it's

easy to hide, hide in work and, and

490

ignore, uh, what, what's going on,

especially when you know that whatever

491

you open up is not going to be nice.

492

Um, but, um, but yeah, I, I,

I'm, uh, it's, it's been 18

493

months of, of, of hard work.

494

And for the first time

now I, I have clarity.

495

I understand why I struggled

the way that I have.

496

And, um, And yeah, I think, I want

to normalise that because, yeah,

497

getting therapy, if there are things

which just keep coming back again

498

and again and again, rather than

just accepting that these things

499

come, medicate them in whatever way.

500

I think it's important to recognize

that that is an option and there's

501

nothing there's no shame in that.

502

I often recommend people find find a

coach, find a coach is also a trained

503

counselor, because yeah, you might

feel like there's just some things

504

I need to, to overcome in terms of

productivity, but I have a sense

505

that there's a deeper roots and.

506

Let's work with a coach who can then

transform into a counsellor if and

507

when I need that, when I discover

the roots of these, these issues

508

that I'm trying to work through.

509

Geri: That seems to connect back to

what you said at the very beginning

510

about curiosity and courage.

511

What courage did it take to

create that Friday space?

512

Because I imagine there would always

be work demands that you could be

513

doing, especially when you seem

to be doing so much so what did it

514

take to actually protect that time?

515

Mark: Uh, so I think we can all do

this thought experiment, uh, what

516

to happen if you suddenly got sick,

um, and you had to go part time.

517

Uh, you're now having to cut

your, your hours in half.

518

Would you be 50 percent less productive

or actually would it force you to really

519

ask yourself, what are the core things?

520

What is the most important

things that I have to do?

521

Um, uh, and if you do that with your

values, uh, side by side, um, uh,

522

then you realize the things that

actually can go, that, that are not

523

actually that important, that you can

sacrifice, because in fact, it was just.

524

They're really to massage my

ego . Um, yeah, I've got, uh,

525

I've got, I dunno, 200 papers.

526

Uh, do I really need, uh,

10 papers a year, actually?

527

Yeah.

528

If I go for five papers a year,

that's still more than average.

529

I'm, I'm okay with that.

530

Um, uh, and as long as I'm doing, uh,

as the same amount of, of reviews, um,

531

for the community, as I extract from

the community, uh, through all of the,

532

the grants and, and papers I submit, um,

yeah, I'm gonna say I've done enough.

533

And so I think you can

all we can all do that.

534

And, and I think a lot of people it's yeah

I have children, and all of a sudden I

535

can't work evenings and weekends anymore.

536

And people who have gone through

that experience will tell you,

537

yeah, I still do all the core stuff

and actually I just focused on

538

the stuff that was most important.

539

your values that are driving you

to do that, then it becomes easy.

540

It was, it was a matter of survival.

541

I realized that I wasn't going to

be able to keep, to keep going.

542

Um, the lockdown was the kind of the

final straw for me in terms of my anxiety.

543

I didn't make it back

to face to face work.

544

Um, and, um, and yeah, that, that was

what made me realize, yeah, this is.

545

Fundamental and problematic enough

and compromising work to the point

546

that actually, I need to talk

to my line manager about this.

547

I need to, above board, go and take

these Fridays and do this work.

548

And I think, ultimately, the payback

will be that I will be able to, I've done

549

two, three now actually, work, face to

face work things, and they've gone well.

550

And so there will be that payback.

551

And I think there's this false

economy where you say, I don't

552

have time to prioritize me.

553

I need to just dive into my work.

554

And yeah, if you were to spend half

an hour, an hour every Monday morning

555

in work time, just doing something

deeply, For you, and it could be a work

556

priority, chipping away at some papers.

557

It could be, I don't know, playing

an instrument, being creative.

558

It's something that connects you

with your values, with your purpose

559

at the beginning of your week.

560

If you can't at the beginning of your day,

then, uh, yeah, you're taking time out.

561

But actually you go into your day

inspired, you go into your day with

562

the sense of I can, and as a result

you don't procrastinate, you don't

563

people please, um, you get on with the

difficult things, um, and you have this

564

sense of well being that stretches out

and becomes an arc from week to week,

565

to month to month, to term to term.

566

Uh, and enables you to

actually work more effectively.

567

And so, so yeah, I think it's a

false economy just saying, yeah,

568

I'm, I'm too busy to prioritize

myself and my own needs.

569

Um, and I put work first, but I'm just

running around like a headless chicken.

570

Geri: Yeah.

571

The headless chicken is something we

can probably, many of us can relate to.

572

Well, and that requires, you know,

you, when you were talking about your

573

PhD student, you talked about the

longer term view with them and enabling

574

their career development and also

the payback that they stay with you.

575

It's the same long term view that you're

talking about here, that in the short

576

term view we can just get the headless

chicken, can't look further than all the

577

things on the to do list, but that if you

can prioritize that time and connect with

578

what energizes you and where you can make

your difference, where you want to make

579

your difference, um, it resources you

for everything else that you need to do.

580

And it may be a long process.

581

I think that's the other thing

that's interesting is the, you

582

know, the arc of our careers.

583

You talked about the well being arc,

and it's the arc of our careers that if

584

we want to be around for the long term,

these are almost like non negotiables

585

being able to do these things.

586

Mark: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

587

Any parent will know the same thing.

588

It can just be sort of grueling, you

know, you're not getting any sleep,

589

there's just so many things to do and

you're trying to work at the same time.

590

Um, uh, and, uh, and yeah, you know that

if, uh, if you don't somehow manage to,

591

to get enough sleep, uh, if you don't

somehow manage to, to prioritize just

592

even a tiny bit of time for yourself, um,

then you're not actually going to be able

593

to be the parent that you want to be.

594

And you start seeing that coming out in

your parenting and the impact of that.

595

And so, yeah, we all find this truth in

different ways, in different contexts,

596

that it is that idea that everything

starts with love, and whether that

597

is a source that you find from within

yourself or from a higher being.

598

Um, the, that it has to start

with, uh, with, uh, with, with

599

the hearts of love within you.

600

Um, and, uh, only from that place,

uh, of, of self care can you

601

then care for others properly.

602

And that doesn't mean being selfish,

doesn't mean spending lots of time.

603

I think that's one of the objections

to the approach that I train in

604

through the productive researcher,

which is this idea that you start

605

your week or your day with something

that connects you to your purpose.

606

And people are like, well,

that's just really selfish.

607

But actually, if a colleague came

to you and said, I want to chip away

608

at one of my papers for my PhD, or

practice an instrument to energize

609

me for the week, one hour per week,

Before I start my week, you wouldn't

610

say, well, that's really selfish.

611

I want all your time

for me and my project.

612

I hope he was like, yeah,

that's really great.

613

That's fantastic.

614

And I can, of course, can see

how that will benefit you and in

615

the long term, your work project.

616

And, and you'd be like, yeah, so why can

we not do that for ourselves and actually.

617

If you can't do that for yourself,

it says something much deeper

618

about your own self respect.

619

And you need to go do the work to

ask, well, why can't I prioritize

620

half an hour on a Monday morning

as a starting point for this?

621

For me, I can't do that.

622

I can't find half an hour.

623

I'm not worth even that.

624

Yeah, and of course then you go on a

different journey and hopefully realise

625

at the end of that that maybe you can give

yourself half an hour in which way half an

626

hour per week can be enough just to give

you the sense of, oh yeah, I am actually

627

a human being after all, that has purpose

and it is connected to something deeper.

628

Geri: So purpose and values are recurring

themes in what you've said here today

629

and in your book, so to, you've got

another book on research impact, the

630

Handbook of Research Impact, but the

two books that purpose and values,

631

particularly figure in, I think, are the

productive researcher and, impact culture.

632

And I love the way, and I know that

you've talked about it as sort of,

633

you know, you're talking about these

things that sound, like what academia

634

wants, you know, productive research,

producing lots of outputs and papers

635

or, having impact, you know, which is

in particularly in the UK in terms of

636

how they evaluate research assessment and

increasingly in other places, a big issue.

637

But you underpin all this again

with this, this love, what would

638

love have you do and this starting

point also of values and purpose.

639

But for many.

640

People, when we talk about

purpose, it often becomes this

641

sort of ethereal concept and it,

how do people get a handle on it?

642

Can you say a little

bit more about purpose?

643

Mark: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

644

Um, so a question that I start many

of my trainings with, which you can

645

all ask yourselves is simply, what

do you love most about your work?

646

And, uh, and, yeah, you can say, well, I'm

interested in thermodynamics, and that's

647

what I research, yeah, but, but why?

648

Why aren't you interested

in that, of all things?

649

I mean, yeah, go to a school reunion,

um, and try and explain to someone

650

why that is intrinsically, uh, an

interesting, uh, thing that you would

651

love, and you'll just get weird looks.

652

What is it about that?

653

Um, and now I get a sense of,

well, it's just this sense of,

654

of wonder, of awe, of curiosity.

655

Uh, for others it's, uh, this, this sense

of creativity, of playfulness, of fun.

656

Uh, for others it's, uh, knowing that I'm

making a difference, uh, wanting to help

657

others, uh, seeing, uh, that curiosity

and creativity transformed into something

658

productive others can use, for example.

659

And, and the quality of that

conversation at the end of it, it's

660

energised, it's inspired, and you

realise, yeah, when was the last time I

661

actually thought about that, that why?

662

And then when was the last time I did

something that connected me with that why?

663

And in a busy academic role with personal

pressures of life, you end up just on

664

this hamster wheel sometimes, never

getting to prioritize the things that

665

you love until you get to this place

where you no longer love your work.

666

Actually, you feel demotivated,

demotivated, de energized,

667

uninspired, you're dragging yourself

through each day, each week.

668

And the idea is simply to ask

yourself, well, what are the things

669

that you do that take you to that

place of, I love, and how can you

670

make time for that on a regular basis?

671

I take people through a bunch of

exercises to really clarify that.

672

I get people to think about

their different identities

673

a work identity, a home

674

identity.

675

What are those different home identities?

676

Have they got different roles?

677

Um, but what do I bring to those roles?

678

So, yeah, I'm a teacher, I'm a researcher,

but actually, no, I'm not just a teacher.

679

I'm a facilitator.

680

That's how I do teaching.

681

I'm not just a researcher.

682

I'm an explorer or whatever it might be.

683

And we now have all of

these different identities.

684

And from those identities,

we look at values.

685

What are the things that animate,

that inspire you to be a facilitator

686

rather than a teacher, to be an

explorer rather than just a learner,

687

for example, as a researcher.

688

Um, where does that come from?

689

And then it is at that intersection

between our identities and our

690

values that we find our purpose.

691

And the final thing that I get people

to do then is to say, well, great,

692

if this is who you are and the values

that inspire you, now how does that

693

match up to how you spend your time?

694

And I get people to draw

this as a pie chart.

695

And if you redraw that pie chart,

now saying, well, how much time

696

do I get to spend being creative?

697

Being the father I want to

be, the husband I want to be,

698

or whatever else it might be.

699

What are the things that feel, which

are big parts of your identity,

700

underpinned by important values that

actually feel consistently squeezed?

701

I never get enough time.

702

In fact, I get no time at all in

some of these, these parts of myself,

703

and I feel like I'm losing touch

with that part of myself, that I'm

704

becoming thinner somehow as a person.

705

And then the question is, what could

you do on a habitual basis in as

706

little as half an hour on a Monday

morning that could connect you with

707

that part of yourself, or at least

one of those parts of yourself that's

708

really important but is squeezed.

709

What you get then is this disproportional

impact on that sense of who you are,

710

your identity, your values, your

sense of well being, and half an hour.

711

doing that thing now actually rights

all of these wrongs, gives you this

712

sense of well being, this sense of

work life balance even coming, even

713

although you haven't quite got the

hours under control yet, that can

714

just power you through so much.

715

Geri: Yeah, the, the, um, The

thing that is also really impactful

716

in your Impact Culture book is

the notion that this change can

717

happen from the bottom up as well.

718

Like, we can all do that find a half hour.

719

And we can all role model that within

our places where we're working.

720

And you talk about building culture

from that bottom up, and that we don't

721

need to have the sign on our door saying

we're a leader, to be a leader in that.

722

And, and, Very much that sense

of leading by empowering, and I'm

723

conscious that we're getting up to time.

724

I could just leave it there as

a teaser for people to make sure

725

they go and read the Impact Culture

book to read more about that.

726

Or is it sort of a short thing

you'd want to say, um, around that?

727

Mark: Yeah, I guess it's

just summing up, isn't it?

728

And, um, How can we go from a conversation

like this into a more purposeful day

729

to make some plans that will connect us

each with whatever our purpose might be,

730

to remind us of that and not to wait.

731

for a new head of school, um, to

that perfect job that I'm going to

732

get, um, that, that will be a place

in which I can feel like I belong.

733

Uh, I can create that place now,

uh, for myself, perhaps with a small

734

number of other colleagues around me

who share a similar purpose to me.

735

Um, and, um, I just, yeah, I just want

to empower you to, to, to, to think,

736

uh, for yourself, uh, and, uh, and to

make that time whatever the pressures

737

might be, uh, because it will pay, it

will pay dividends, it really will.

738

Geri: Yeah, and creating that more

purposeful workplace that you talk about

739

as well, which then leads into all of the

actual impact that we want our research

740

to have in the ways that you talk about.

741

So I look forward to your next book

coming out and I will point people

742

in the show notes to your web pages.

743

wonderful podcast and your books.

744

And I, I also just want to thank

you for making the book so readable,

745

so personal, and so actionable.

746

I Think there's a way in which they

also walk the talk about making

747

a difference and having impact,

uh, just in what you bring to it.

748

Anything that you would want to just say

749

Mark: yeah, just to say

thank you, Geraldine.

750

And, um, and yeah, so, so have a

look, listen to what I'm doing.

751

I've just finished a, a series in

the podcast on, on evaluating and

752

evidencing impact I'm not quite

sure where I'm going to take it next

753

.

Um, and what a privilege it is to be able to connect.

754

So it's always nice when you're

kind of aware of someone, um,

755

and listening to their work and

getting that opportunity to actually

756

connect and have that conversation.

757

So thank you.

758

Geri: Indeed.

759

Thank you, Mark.

760

Thank you.

761

Thank you for your time.

762

Mark: It's been a pleasure.

763

Geri: I really want to

thank mark for sharing.

764

So honestly, here.

765

And again, what an inspiring

demonstration of courage,

766

curiosity, and the quest for impact.

767

I'd really encourage you to follow

up on all of Mark's great resources.

768

His podcast, his books.

769

The trainings that he does.

770

And so on.

771

You can find the links to all

of these in the show notes.

772

And I'd also encourage you to think

about what's the one thing you will

773

do now, having listened to this.

774

And what would love have you do today?

775

You can find the summary

notes, a transcript and related

776

links for this podcast on www.

777

changingacademiclife.

778

com.

779

You can also subscribe to

Changing Academic Life on iTunes,

780

Spotify and Google Podcasts.

781

And you can follow

ChangeAcadLife on Twitter.

782

And I'm really hoping that we can

widen the conversation about how

783

we can do academia differently.

784

And you can contribute to this by rating

the podcast and also giving feedback.

785

And if something connected with

you, please consider sharing this

786

podcast with your colleagues.

787

Together, we can make change happen.